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SubRosa under attack in local media
Public anarchists and anti-authoritarians are taking the heat for May Day actions that they were not involved in. Support each other and stay safe!
SubRosa needs your support-- and I don't mean financially, this time. We are getting blamed for the May Day dance party that resulted in broken windows in downtown SC. SubRosa had nothing to do with the event, except that there were fliers for it here, as there were allover town and allover the internet. Individuals involved with SubRosa are having their physical well being threatened. People are using what was a huge dance party with a few acts of vandalism as an excuse to attack SubRosa and anyone in any way associated with it. There are accusations that SubRosa organized the May Day event, that the event started at SubRosa and a ton of other things that aren't true.
This is a time for us all to band together, to show support and solidarity with each other in the face of a police state that has always blamed anarchists for everything destructive, while actively trying to prevent people from exercising creativity that would create alternatives to capitalist relations. The people who make this town a fantastic place to be are far more important than the walls and windows of businesses that suck our souls away for their profit.
Most of the accusations leveled at SubRosa are coming from two places (which may actually be the same place). One is Take Back Santa Cruz, a group of white, upper-middle class, vaguely conservative people who wrote an almost completely inaccurate email to its email list conflating every DIY community event in Santa Cruz with the May Day vandalism. The other source of misinformation comes from the ever virulent Santa Cruz Sentinel online forums. There is a lot of inaccurate information posted there, partly due to inaccurate reporting in the Sentinel's article and partly due to a bunch of ignorant jerks who get to write whatever they want without having to sign their name to it. A lot of the comments have been incredibly racist, and incredibly violent, calling for doing injury to SubRosa collective members, and even posting their addresses, or, even more offensively, blaming the vandalism on illegal immigrants, which just shows you the true ignorance of the people posting.
It seems incredibly ironic to me that people who are so appalled by "violence" done to buildings would call for physical harm to be done to real people.
This town does not just belong to the rich, the white, the business owner. It also belongs to the artist, the street musician, the worker, the homeless. It also belongs to the anarchist and the anti-authoritarian. We live in a place where business owners and the police try to control our every move, where you can sit, what you can say, and they give us nothing in return, telling us to move along so that the rich tourists who come to spend money won't have their pure eyes tainted with the sight of our ragged clothes.
The SubRosa collective has created a space that challenges the commercialism and rampant capitalism of downtown Santa Cruz, and we have tried to balance that with setting boundaries towards people who come in to our space to create a safe and welcoming atmosphere for people to share ideas and create friendships and alliances. It isn't easy and we do struggle with maintaining a space that feels positive for us all to be in. But the people who frequent SubRosa do not deserve less respect just because they don't have a lot of money or drive fancy cars.
Let's continue to show solidarity and support for each other and plan community events, because that is what actually makes this town worth living in.
This is a time for us all to band together, to show support and solidarity with each other in the face of a police state that has always blamed anarchists for everything destructive, while actively trying to prevent people from exercising creativity that would create alternatives to capitalist relations. The people who make this town a fantastic place to be are far more important than the walls and windows of businesses that suck our souls away for their profit.
Most of the accusations leveled at SubRosa are coming from two places (which may actually be the same place). One is Take Back Santa Cruz, a group of white, upper-middle class, vaguely conservative people who wrote an almost completely inaccurate email to its email list conflating every DIY community event in Santa Cruz with the May Day vandalism. The other source of misinformation comes from the ever virulent Santa Cruz Sentinel online forums. There is a lot of inaccurate information posted there, partly due to inaccurate reporting in the Sentinel's article and partly due to a bunch of ignorant jerks who get to write whatever they want without having to sign their name to it. A lot of the comments have been incredibly racist, and incredibly violent, calling for doing injury to SubRosa collective members, and even posting their addresses, or, even more offensively, blaming the vandalism on illegal immigrants, which just shows you the true ignorance of the people posting.
It seems incredibly ironic to me that people who are so appalled by "violence" done to buildings would call for physical harm to be done to real people.
This town does not just belong to the rich, the white, the business owner. It also belongs to the artist, the street musician, the worker, the homeless. It also belongs to the anarchist and the anti-authoritarian. We live in a place where business owners and the police try to control our every move, where you can sit, what you can say, and they give us nothing in return, telling us to move along so that the rich tourists who come to spend money won't have their pure eyes tainted with the sight of our ragged clothes.
The SubRosa collective has created a space that challenges the commercialism and rampant capitalism of downtown Santa Cruz, and we have tried to balance that with setting boundaries towards people who come in to our space to create a safe and welcoming atmosphere for people to share ideas and create friendships and alliances. It isn't easy and we do struggle with maintaining a space that feels positive for us all to be in. But the people who frequent SubRosa do not deserve less respect just because they don't have a lot of money or drive fancy cars.
Let's continue to show solidarity and support for each other and plan community events, because that is what actually makes this town worth living in.
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While I agree with the overall message, I think characterizing tens of thousands of dollars of damage as a "few acts of vandalism" will only fuel the fire. The people who are angry about the amount of property damage are not going to be assuaged by having their perception of the amount of property damage belittled.
I know that the folks who started and maintain this cafe and meeting place are community minded and their activities and events speak for them. The vandalism downtown is totally out of their mode. I haven't been to subrosa in a while but I intend to be there more because I believe in what they're doing and I want to support them. Its more than the sum of it's parts .. but only if the parts are there.
This event has given the white, middle-class neo-liberals the opportunity they need to vilify subrosa and any other radical, collective organization in town. If we do care about these organizations and the people who are associated with them, than we should definitely back them through any potential attacks, whether they be physical or even verbal. The next few weeks could harbor a very volatile atmosphere between the common people and merchants, police, neo-liberal middle-class, and local government. It is our responsibility to protect important spaces such as subrosa and defend them against false accusations.
I do not think that the acts of vandalism gave the radical community a good name, and it definitely did not change much besides the amplified tension between parties. However, the actions of a few should not determine the outcome of a community. The sentinel does not seem to care about the false information it releases and Take Back Santa Cruz seems to (yet again) prove itself not conducive to the needs of the entire community.
I do not think that the acts of vandalism gave the radical community a good name, and it definitely did not change much besides the amplified tension between parties. However, the actions of a few should not determine the outcome of a community. The sentinel does not seem to care about the false information it releases and Take Back Santa Cruz seems to (yet again) prove itself not conducive to the needs of the entire community.
http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/ci_15008557
Yes - above they're saying that they're calling in the FBI. The thing is, being older than age 25, I remember several times in the last couple years that this has happened. In most cases, they never caught anyone, shockingly. There is this AETA4 case going on, where they were understandably angry at the firebombing of the two professors' house and car and needed to produce a court case.
However, in addition to this, there were several cases where many people were sure someone would be totally busted, and suffer consequences, because a large group had gone on a spree of some sort.
When some group of a half dozen or dozen people scratched the paint on cars on the westside, and the newspaper said the FBI was called, I visualized that they would be gossiping or posting photos on some blog or facebook. But it didn't happen. Next, when people on multiple occasions have poured concrete in the gas tanks of construction equipment or slashed large tires (technically could have been angry neighbors or ex-employees, or insurance fraud), nobody gossiped. It's as though the vandals around here have a Miami mafia level of adherence to zipped lips and insular friendship groups.
Yes - above they're saying that they're calling in the FBI. The thing is, being older than age 25, I remember several times in the last couple years that this has happened. In most cases, they never caught anyone, shockingly. There is this AETA4 case going on, where they were understandably angry at the firebombing of the two professors' house and car and needed to produce a court case.
However, in addition to this, there were several cases where many people were sure someone would be totally busted, and suffer consequences, because a large group had gone on a spree of some sort.
When some group of a half dozen or dozen people scratched the paint on cars on the westside, and the newspaper said the FBI was called, I visualized that they would be gossiping or posting photos on some blog or facebook. But it didn't happen. Next, when people on multiple occasions have poured concrete in the gas tanks of construction equipment or slashed large tires (technically could have been angry neighbors or ex-employees, or insurance fraud), nobody gossiped. It's as though the vandals around here have a Miami mafia level of adherence to zipped lips and insular friendship groups.
Crossposted @ subrosaproject.org
Word to the wise.. The only people who truly gained from the property destruction were the insurance companies who’ll raise the rates now, and the glass companies (Do you REALLY want to put $$$ in the pocket of Libby-Owens-Ford?).
The Block party itself was the most AWESOME community building activity I’ve seen in years around here… The other community building activity that has been ongoing in Santa Cruz is the now under-siege Santa Cruz Farmers Market drum circle, recently forced to move across the street where a police delivered ‘compromise’ solution was offered last week… “Go Away”.
Wednesday… 3ish
What followed the party, IMO, on a true-cost socio-economics scale, was a *net negative*.
Discipline yourselves… You MUST learn… Violence and property destruction has it’s time and place.
That’s all I have to say about this particular occurrence
But I WILL SAY SOMETHING ON THE OVERALL HYPOCRISY OF THE CITY’S BUSINESS COMMUNITY
A few years ago, after the homicidal stabbing of a local bar patron across the street from that business, a business I was working within eyeshot of…I spoke with the owner, whom I used to work for quite a few year ago when she owned the Swan restaurant on the MALL (R.I.P.)
The conversation went like this:
“Sue (her name before it changed), I’ve been meaning to talk to you about that surly crowd hanging out outside. I see it every night from where I work and you REALLY need to get some security people who know what they’re doing… Not just some over-sized 20somethings who can read IDs”
Her response was stunning, and illustrates the HYPOCRISY of painting the Block Party as a riot because of a few individuals using it as a cover for their own activities.
She said: “It didn’t happen on MY property!”
Well, the property damage and destruction DID NOT HAPPEN during the block party.
Peace… Out.
My posting regarding the subject for Cabale News Service: http://www.archive.org/details/tth_100503
Addenda:
All of this can be EASILY summed up with an old slogan: No (socio-economic) Justice, No Peace.
Like it or not, that IS an 'Immutable Law Of Nature', just like gravity.
It's my understanding that the city intends to hire more police, to contribute to more repression.
Expect more "troubles".
Word to the wise.. The only people who truly gained from the property destruction were the insurance companies who’ll raise the rates now, and the glass companies (Do you REALLY want to put $$$ in the pocket of Libby-Owens-Ford?).
The Block party itself was the most AWESOME community building activity I’ve seen in years around here… The other community building activity that has been ongoing in Santa Cruz is the now under-siege Santa Cruz Farmers Market drum circle, recently forced to move across the street where a police delivered ‘compromise’ solution was offered last week… “Go Away”.
Wednesday… 3ish
What followed the party, IMO, on a true-cost socio-economics scale, was a *net negative*.
Discipline yourselves… You MUST learn… Violence and property destruction has it’s time and place.
That’s all I have to say about this particular occurrence
But I WILL SAY SOMETHING ON THE OVERALL HYPOCRISY OF THE CITY’S BUSINESS COMMUNITY
A few years ago, after the homicidal stabbing of a local bar patron across the street from that business, a business I was working within eyeshot of…I spoke with the owner, whom I used to work for quite a few year ago when she owned the Swan restaurant on the MALL (R.I.P.)
The conversation went like this:
“Sue (her name before it changed), I’ve been meaning to talk to you about that surly crowd hanging out outside. I see it every night from where I work and you REALLY need to get some security people who know what they’re doing… Not just some over-sized 20somethings who can read IDs”
Her response was stunning, and illustrates the HYPOCRISY of painting the Block Party as a riot because of a few individuals using it as a cover for their own activities.
She said: “It didn’t happen on MY property!”
Well, the property damage and destruction DID NOT HAPPEN during the block party.
Peace… Out.
My posting regarding the subject for Cabale News Service: http://www.archive.org/details/tth_100503
Addenda:
All of this can be EASILY summed up with an old slogan: No (socio-economic) Justice, No Peace.
Like it or not, that IS an 'Immutable Law Of Nature', just like gravity.
It's my understanding that the city intends to hire more police, to contribute to more repression.
Expect more "troubles".
For more information:
http://auntieimperial.blogspot.com
I am curious how Subrosa is being vilified by Take Back Santa Cruz when Jimi Haynes (the guy arrested) told police he got the flyer at Subrosa? I like facts. So far that is the only concert fact here.
here's another fact:
there were flyers across town.
one could've picked up a flyer elsewhere or found out
from somewhere else.
there were flyers across town.
one could've picked up a flyer elsewhere or found out
from somewhere else.
I am not stupid. It is a valid question. Subrosa is blaming the Take Back group. How are they to blame. If there were flyers around town - fine. I just want to know why Subrosa has so much hate for this group. From what I've seen, this group just wants to run the gangs and drugs out of Santa Cruz. I don't see a problem with that.
It has indeed been a rough week in Santa Cruz. It makes me so sad to see a beautiful little town like SC falling a part because of any group or groups that have issues with basic public rules of conduct and respect. There has been no society that has been successful without a reasonable set of rules and regulations in place for people to follow. The purpose of these rules and regulations are to help keep order, not oppression, to keep people safe not promote violence and to provide consistancy within the rules so that EVERYONE is held accountable for the same rules to the best of our ability. It's fairly simple like any board game you play with your friends - if everyone makes up their own rules to the game - it turns into chaos. Right now there is chaos in Santa Cruz.
you almost have a point, until one considers that things are not like a board game where everyone starts at square one with the same amount of money in the bank.
things are more like no board game we'd ever choose to play -- where some players and corporations start already owning Park Place and everyone else who wants to play can barely even get on the board
also, please keep in mind that corporations are not people and are not due the same respect we might expect between actual humans
things are more like no board game we'd ever choose to play -- where some players and corporations start already owning Park Place and everyone else who wants to play can barely even get on the board
also, please keep in mind that corporations are not people and are not due the same respect we might expect between actual humans
Society will be a lot better off after we rebel against their establishment and abolish the government that keeps it alive. Americans. They seek to wipe out the corruption of big business and government but when people actually take action to put a stop to it they get all upset and start defending the very system they hate so much. You are defending the new Rome. You know not what you do.
PEOPLE WHO STILL HAVE MONEY DON'T FEEL THE NEED TO REVOLT UNTIL THEY LOSE EVERYTHING THEY GOT. THESE TYPES ARE WILLING TO FIGHT FOR ANARCHIST PRINCIPLES OF UNITY & EQUALITY. THEY CARE ONLY ABOUT THEM SELVES AND LIVE ONLY FOR CAPITAL GAIN. ALMOST NO DIFFERENT FROM THE SOULESS CEO'S, BANKERS, AND PAWNS WHO PROTECT AND SERVE CAPITAL OVER LIFE IT SELF.
PEOPLE WHO STILL HAVE MONEY DON'T FEEL THE NEED TO REVOLT UNTIL THEY LOSE EVERYTHING THEY GOT. THESE TYPES ARE WILLING TO FIGHT FOR ANARCHIST PRINCIPLES OF UNITY & EQUALITY. THEY CARE ONLY ABOUT THEM SELVES AND LIVE ONLY FOR CAPITAL GAIN. ALMOST NO DIFFERENT FROM THE SOULESS CEO'S, BANKERS, AND PAWNS WHO PROTECT AND SERVE CAPITAL OVER LIFE IT SELF.
yeah wake the fuck up people
is nothing but a bunch of sewing circle punks and old men who couldn't take credit for a riot if they wanted to. do TBSC know this? perhaps not and they are blinded by ideology; perhaps they do and the real issue is that SR provides a haven for the street people who are being systematically expelled from the fancier parts of the avenue. ironically, i saw one antique hippie who is always hanging out at SR put out a trash can fire on saturday night...
Some people have become disillusioned with struggling for freedom so they go with the grain and tend to get it confuse with freedom over time because it's an easier life to go along with the program than think out side the box and act according to your own thinking outside the norms.
anarchist... I sleep in the woods and live at a third world level voluntarily, for most of my half century plus life, and YOU are a spoiled little self-centered jackass who UNDOUBTEDLY has a roof over your head and has probably never seen a hungry day in your life.
I can tell these things... I've seen enough of your ilk in my life.
A community building exercise that should happen every month like Critical Mass, is now something that has been alienated from the popular support of the Santa Cruz community (including the poor who are already feeling the suppression, unlike you) and will never be able to happen again without police presence and infiltration, and you think that's OK?
You're worse than a jackass, you're a loose cannon on deck, and a danger to anyone who would consort with you.
Fortunately, people who spew like you never do anything.
I can tell these things... I've seen enough of your ilk in my life.
A community building exercise that should happen every month like Critical Mass, is now something that has been alienated from the popular support of the Santa Cruz community (including the poor who are already feeling the suppression, unlike you) and will never be able to happen again without police presence and infiltration, and you think that's OK?
You're worse than a jackass, you're a loose cannon on deck, and a danger to anyone who would consort with you.
Fortunately, people who spew like you never do anything.
For more information:
http://auntieimperial.blogspot.com
Windows in the Rittenhouse building were smashed. Whether you like R. or not, he donated space to non-profits including and organization advocating for increased foster care families and the SPCA. One of the people involved in these displays has also dedicated a lot of time and money to a local organization helping battered women and another one giving free legal services to low income folks.
This is who these window smashers hurt.
If SubRosa truly wants to helps its image, it should categorically denounce the actions of the rioters.
This is who these window smashers hurt.
If SubRosa truly wants to helps its image, it should categorically denounce the actions of the rioters.
Well, there are a few totally nutty folks around from the 'insurrectionist' tendency. One of them randomly went and smashed out the plate glass in a bus stop shelter in San Francisco across from the anarchist book fair event this year, in a fit of pique. I wasn't nearby, but supposedly the person defended the idea with a philosophy that everything needs to be broken down before we start anew or whatever. All that this did was put the book event at risk, make some transit users have to stand in the wind, and perhaps popped a tire or two.
Funny... that's ultimately the same rationale the Neofasc... I mean NeoCons were using.
Break the government to 'prove' it doesn't work and then go to the constitutional conseratives and say "Y0u see? You were right! Big government doesn't work.
Some of those constitutional conservatives, such as Robert Byrd of West Virginia immediately 'outed' them for what the NeoCons REALLY are. fundamentalist Fascists.
I would suggest the same of people who usurp community building activities for their own NIHILISTIC ends.
I KNOW their logic tho'... sick... twisted logic:
"Ahem... The Duty Officer asked General Ripper to confirm the fact that he *had* issued the go code, and he said, uh, "Yes gentlemen, they are on their way in, and no one can bring them back. For the sake of our country, and our way of life, I suggest you get the rest of SAC in after them. Otherwise, we will be totally destroyed by Red retaliation. Uh, my boys will give you the best kind of start, 1400 megatons worth, and you sure as hell won't stop them now, uhuh. Uh, so let's get going, there's no other choice. God willing, we will prevail," ~General Jack D. Ripper, Doctor Strangelove
It's called being SET UP.
Break the government to 'prove' it doesn't work and then go to the constitutional conseratives and say "Y0u see? You were right! Big government doesn't work.
Some of those constitutional conservatives, such as Robert Byrd of West Virginia immediately 'outed' them for what the NeoCons REALLY are. fundamentalist Fascists.
I would suggest the same of people who usurp community building activities for their own NIHILISTIC ends.
I KNOW their logic tho'... sick... twisted logic:
"Ahem... The Duty Officer asked General Ripper to confirm the fact that he *had* issued the go code, and he said, uh, "Yes gentlemen, they are on their way in, and no one can bring them back. For the sake of our country, and our way of life, I suggest you get the rest of SAC in after them. Otherwise, we will be totally destroyed by Red retaliation. Uh, my boys will give you the best kind of start, 1400 megatons worth, and you sure as hell won't stop them now, uhuh. Uh, so let's get going, there's no other choice. God willing, we will prevail," ~General Jack D. Ripper, Doctor Strangelove
It's called being SET UP.
For more information:
http://auntieimperial.blogspot.com
"Some people have become disillusioned with struggling for freedom so they go with the grain and tend to get it confuse with freedom over time because it's an easier life to go along with the program than think out side the box and act according to your own thinking outside the norms."
That means they're supposed to think like you... Right?
Fundamentalist Fascist...
That means they're supposed to think like you... Right?
Fundamentalist Fascist...
For more information:
http://auntieimperial.blogspot.com
it has pictures of people rioting with slingshots and the words "just do it". that's kinda funny considering what you are saying here.
In this post, JC and Subrosa are taking offense at the fact that people are posting their names and addresses? And yet, when the AETA 4 were charged with that same crime, Subrosa hosted a fundraiser for them.
Personally, I do hold Subrosa accountable for the negative actions that occurred on the mall; whether they were intended by Subrosa or conducted by Subrosa employees specifically is irrelevant.
I say this because Subrosa is a business, and as such is responsible for the conduct of their "customers".
-If a bar lets a patron get too drunk and the patron causes a DUI accident on their way home, the bar is held responsible.
-If a nightclub has negative effects on a neighborhood, due to too many fights, or rowdy behaviour at 2am as the club closes, the club is held responsible and sometimes shut down.
So as such, as Subrosa is preaching the ideology of anarchy, is hosting events by people who sometimes preach action rather than non-violent action, and is holding fundraisers for same....they are responsible and shall be held accountable. And that's what's happening.
To listen to Danni on the news tonite stating that Subrosa is a place for "community and coffee", while ignoring the reality that it's also a gathering place that actively supports myriad people charged with violent criminal acts, was a joke to me. Listening to Jennifer tell the reporter that "you weren't very nice to me last time so I'm not going to talk to you now" was even more ironic and hypocritical.
Did Jennifer give the University a choice as to whether they listened or not when the treesitters she represented did their illegal acts? Nope.
Ironic Hypocrisy, that's what I'm seeing coming out of Subrosa now.
Personally, I do hold Subrosa accountable for the negative actions that occurred on the mall; whether they were intended by Subrosa or conducted by Subrosa employees specifically is irrelevant.
I say this because Subrosa is a business, and as such is responsible for the conduct of their "customers".
-If a bar lets a patron get too drunk and the patron causes a DUI accident on their way home, the bar is held responsible.
-If a nightclub has negative effects on a neighborhood, due to too many fights, or rowdy behaviour at 2am as the club closes, the club is held responsible and sometimes shut down.
So as such, as Subrosa is preaching the ideology of anarchy, is hosting events by people who sometimes preach action rather than non-violent action, and is holding fundraisers for same....they are responsible and shall be held accountable. And that's what's happening.
To listen to Danni on the news tonite stating that Subrosa is a place for "community and coffee", while ignoring the reality that it's also a gathering place that actively supports myriad people charged with violent criminal acts, was a joke to me. Listening to Jennifer tell the reporter that "you weren't very nice to me last time so I'm not going to talk to you now" was even more ironic and hypocritical.
Did Jennifer give the University a choice as to whether they listened or not when the treesitters she represented did their illegal acts? Nope.
Ironic Hypocrisy, that's what I'm seeing coming out of Subrosa now.
Today Channel 46 said that Jimi Hayes was an "employee" of SubRosa. Does anyone want to comment on whether he was a member of the collective or if this is just a total lie? I'm writing something to defend SubRosa, but I want to be able to respond accurately to this. Even if he was a collective member that would not mean the collective is responsible in my opinion.
Those weren't anarchists?!?! I was down there, and everyone was yelling "anarchy" and some spray painted an Anarchy symbol. Weird
never did anything at sub rosa except hang out and be drunk.
what keeps getting ignored here, it seems is what to me is the really most important point.
cops and downtown businesses have turned the northern half of pacific into a private outdoor mall, complete with its own private security force and its own laws, to keep the poor away. there is no where to hang out up there without spending money.
gee, ya think the riot had anything to do with that?!
we know, we know, we KNOW alredy that santa cruz is full of liberal capitalists who fancy themselves "progressive" or even "left-wing" or whatever. yet the underlying reality behind this "free," "democratic" etc city and society is that of capitalism, its economic coercion, and the state which enforces it with cops, guns and prisons.
i didn't break anything on saturday night, i had nothing to do with that. but i'm not surprised that some people did. some type of reaction to the utter takeover of downtown has been a long time coming. to me this is the most interesting thing about it. people want to hold certain radical ideologies responsible while ignoring the fact that this was in response to an overwhelming capitalist reality. to peacefully protest against a system whose motto is "work or suffer!" is meaningless. read your history - may 1, 1886.
what keeps getting ignored here, it seems is what to me is the really most important point.
cops and downtown businesses have turned the northern half of pacific into a private outdoor mall, complete with its own private security force and its own laws, to keep the poor away. there is no where to hang out up there without spending money.
gee, ya think the riot had anything to do with that?!
we know, we know, we KNOW alredy that santa cruz is full of liberal capitalists who fancy themselves "progressive" or even "left-wing" or whatever. yet the underlying reality behind this "free," "democratic" etc city and society is that of capitalism, its economic coercion, and the state which enforces it with cops, guns and prisons.
i didn't break anything on saturday night, i had nothing to do with that. but i'm not surprised that some people did. some type of reaction to the utter takeover of downtown has been a long time coming. to me this is the most interesting thing about it. people want to hold certain radical ideologies responsible while ignoring the fact that this was in response to an overwhelming capitalist reality. to peacefully protest against a system whose motto is "work or suffer!" is meaningless. read your history - may 1, 1886.
Is this really the best you've got? The biggest windmill you can tilt against.
You have to pick one of the most liberal towns in one of the most liberal states in one of the most liberal nations on the planet to plant your flag and try to pretend that it's too corporate and must be fixed and turned around?
*sigh* You have really set a low bar for yourself. Why don't you take an objective look at the reality, and admit that you've picked a town and population where you expect your message will be well received and your victory easy?
Or better yet? Take your message and efforts to a community that is TRULY riddled by "capitalism, its economic coercion, and the state which enforces it with cops, guns and prisons."
Cause I tell you son/daughter; you sound only like the arrogant and tunnel visioned tool that you are when you make that claim in this area. It's akin to a fundamentalist mormon squealing that Salt Lake City is too progressive. A message only believed by those who already believe it.
You have to pick one of the most liberal towns in one of the most liberal states in one of the most liberal nations on the planet to plant your flag and try to pretend that it's too corporate and must be fixed and turned around?
*sigh* You have really set a low bar for yourself. Why don't you take an objective look at the reality, and admit that you've picked a town and population where you expect your message will be well received and your victory easy?
Or better yet? Take your message and efforts to a community that is TRULY riddled by "capitalism, its economic coercion, and the state which enforces it with cops, guns and prisons."
Cause I tell you son/daughter; you sound only like the arrogant and tunnel visioned tool that you are when you make that claim in this area. It's akin to a fundamentalist mormon squealing that Salt Lake City is too progressive. A message only believed by those who already believe it.
I spend many days downtown without spending a dime! I love window shopping, talking to people, listening to music and now the dogs. I don't enjoy how aggressive the panhandlers have become, the gangs, and the obvious drug use downtown has experience lately. I see nothing wrong with wanting an inviting downtown for EVERYONE. If it has to have some rules - fine. What happened at the rally was wrong. Smashing windows, trashing cars, tossing paint accomplishes NOTHING.
You say he did nothing but hang out and be drunk, but Wes says nobody at the SubRosa Collective has ever seen this gentleman (quote from the Sentinel). Someone be lying.
but... a lot of street people hang out at SR.
and i know that a lot of you love capitalism, "liberal" or otherwise. it's very clear. you don't need to repeat the point. no one is asking you...
and i know that a lot of you love capitalism, "liberal" or otherwise. it's very clear. you don't need to repeat the point. no one is asking you...
For one collective member to know Jimi Hayes hung out there and another to think that no one saw him doesn't contradict the main point that he was not a member of the collective.
I think it is important not to jump to conclusions about Jimi Hayes as well. We can disagree with tactics, but let's keep in mind that what is truly violent is this capitalist system with its wars, brutal cops, and murderous FBI who have been invited into town by the local cops. The local government often destroys the property of the homeless, and this can be truly violent on a cold night because the destroyed or confiscated blankets can cause the homeless to freeze to death on a cold night. When was the last time the Sentinel or Ryan Coonerty got upset about that?
Does SubRosa even have "employees", or are members of the collective working there actually volunteers instead?
i just heard he was hanging out there, which is what i probably should have said in the first place - sorry - at any rate, there is someone who thinks that (although i guess i had better not speak for them). apparently, wes doesn't, although it's not really his place to say since he is not there 24/7 or even every day. lots of people come and go at sub rosa. so what? and no it does not have paid employees, only volunteers. i thought this was pretty funny in the mainstream coverage where they were all, "where does the money come from?!" and acted as if it was a complete mystery, even though they interviewed jenn charles and either didn't bother to ask her, or didn't bother to publicize the answer. the answer is that it comes from selling coffee and books and having events where donations are solicited, and also from the fact that no one is paid to work there - that is as i understand it...
There is no excuse for these criminal actions. All this blame on capitalism is just a hogwash excuse from the vandals and their supporters.
Whenever I get enough money together I was thinking of opening a fair trade store in downtown Santa Cruz that would cater to people simillar to Sub Rosa customers. But with such a negative attitude from the community about Sub Rosa, I'm wondering if that would be such a good idea. I like radical politics, but I am strictly non-violent. I don't think that with 20-20 hindsight I would permit the same anarchist flyers that were posted at Sub Rosa to be posted in my shop. This violent incident downtown serves no constructive purpose and should be condemned.
While it is unfortunate that local mom & pop shops got hit in the mix of things you can't honestly feel sympathy for the ceo's of big chain stores that exploit people for their labor at home and abroad. Same goes for the banks that are the least concerned with democratic principles and human rights everywhere. Siding with corporations is no better than siding with Adolf Hitler. You may as well side your self with the Nazi Party if you are going to defend corporations from those who are victims of their capitalist system. Hope you don't defend the banks, credit card, insurance, pharmaceutical and investment companies either. That would make you super piggy capitalist. Under the Divided Sates of the Multi-National Corporations the military, the police, the politicians, the entire government is working for Wall St and there is nothing you can do, no one you can elect to change the state of affairs we live in. Waiting to be homeless to stand up against the tyranny of corporate greed and political corruption is not a viable option. Sorry but you lost my support on that one.
You think this was a riot?
Just wait till the real big economic crunch comes and you'll see what a real riot looks like and what a police state looks like. By that time you'll have lost everything and you'll be the first one at the frontline with a molotov in your hand. RIOT USA! ANTI-AUTHORITARIAN ANTI-CAPITALIST RESISTANCE UP YOUR ASS!
You think this was a riot?
Just wait till the real big economic crunch comes and you'll see what a real riot looks like and what a police state looks like. By that time you'll have lost everything and you'll be the first one at the frontline with a molotov in your hand. RIOT USA! ANTI-AUTHORITARIAN ANTI-CAPITALIST RESISTANCE UP YOUR ASS!
I said there's a time and a place.
I NEVER said property destruction isn't a legitimate tactic.
Chase Manhattan... Mountaintop mining.
ROTC office (that dates me) Anti War action.
Get the picture?
No one is usurping anyone's action. The 'Action' IS about n more business as usual'
Those ARE NOT designed as 'community building actions.
The community is already there... with intent...
At the drum circle today... If the police show, the drummers will probably take their tickets and contest the 15 minute parking lot rule or just rip them up.
At a block party... We DANCE!
It's called appropriate response.
I could flesh this out some more... but if you don't immediately understand what the appropriate response to a call for a block party is, or WHAT a block party is, I'm probably wasting typing time.
I NEVER said property destruction isn't a legitimate tactic.
Chase Manhattan... Mountaintop mining.
ROTC office (that dates me) Anti War action.
Get the picture?
No one is usurping anyone's action. The 'Action' IS about n more business as usual'
Those ARE NOT designed as 'community building actions.
The community is already there... with intent...
At the drum circle today... If the police show, the drummers will probably take their tickets and contest the 15 minute parking lot rule or just rip them up.
At a block party... We DANCE!
It's called appropriate response.
I could flesh this out some more... but if you don't immediately understand what the appropriate response to a call for a block party is, or WHAT a block party is, I'm probably wasting typing time.
For more information:
http://auntieimperial.blogspot.com
hypocrisy (Tuesday May 4th, 2010 6:10 PM): "Personally, I do hold Subrosa accountable for the negative actions that occurred on the mall; whether they were intended by Subrosa or conducted by Subrosa employees specifically is irrelevant.
I say this because Subrosa is a business, and as such is responsible for the conduct of their "customers".
-If a bar lets a patron get too drunk and the patron causes a DUI accident on their way home, the bar is held responsible.
-If a nightclub has negative effects on a neighborhood, due to too many fights, or rowdy behavior at 2am as the club closes, the club is held responsible and sometimes shut down."
But they AREN'T held responsible under the current regime...
YOu're indicating we SHOULD hold the Red Room accountable for the fatal stabbing of a patron across the street and in plain sight of their so-called security people?
...or the rape of a under age girl on the levee, picked up at Rosie McCann's?
They still have THEIR liquor license too.
Explain?
A historical note: There USED TO be a bar in the SC Greyhound station called "The Caravan".
One night, a woman I know was RAPED in a bathroom nearby.
Within ONE WEEK THAT BAR WAS NO LONGER IN BUSINESS.
That's because the people who ran this city before the fascists took power had SOME ethics.
The people who run Santa Cruz now have ethics that only extend as far as their profit margins.
I say this because Subrosa is a business, and as such is responsible for the conduct of their "customers".
-If a bar lets a patron get too drunk and the patron causes a DUI accident on their way home, the bar is held responsible.
-If a nightclub has negative effects on a neighborhood, due to too many fights, or rowdy behavior at 2am as the club closes, the club is held responsible and sometimes shut down."
But they AREN'T held responsible under the current regime...
YOu're indicating we SHOULD hold the Red Room accountable for the fatal stabbing of a patron across the street and in plain sight of their so-called security people?
...or the rape of a under age girl on the levee, picked up at Rosie McCann's?
They still have THEIR liquor license too.
Explain?
A historical note: There USED TO be a bar in the SC Greyhound station called "The Caravan".
One night, a woman I know was RAPED in a bathroom nearby.
Within ONE WEEK THAT BAR WAS NO LONGER IN BUSINESS.
That's because the people who ran this city before the fascists took power had SOME ethics.
The people who run Santa Cruz now have ethics that only extend as far as their profit margins.
For more information:
http://auntieimperial.blogpot.com
Dear Aunti,
I'm afraid that you are completely off topic. I agree that businesses should be held accountable, even if that means, at times, making "ethic" decisions about how they are conducting their business and what that means in terms of our community.
Currently, the city is being run with the best interest of business owners in mind, and actions by the city represent this. I think back specifically to the "stripper poll" being installed illegally at a down town bar called Calahan's (see Sentinel Article: http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/localnews/ci_14806497 ). Notice what action was taken by the police or the city? Nothing.
Why didn't they take any actions against something that was not only illegal in terms of city code but also in terms of morals and ethics, well, because the morals and ethics running this city are profit driven. They are not the same concerns that you or I hold, nor are the representative of the Santa Cruz, or the World, that--I'm sure--you want to be living in or the world--and I am sure--that I want to be living in.
You call for businesses to be responsible for the outside actions of their customers. When these actions are directly related to the business and the services being offer there I agree with you 500%. I see liquor stores and bars as some of the most responsible companies for the misery of my community, and I think they should be held liable. However, if someone takes a Greyhound bus into Santa Cruz, and then commits a crime or legal or moral repugnance, I do not think that they should be held liable for bringing that person to our city.
Likewise, fliers for the May 1st event were distributed throughout the city and the Internet. Should we hold Comcast liable for providing Internet access? Should we hold the public library liable for lending books which condone and support violence and violent revolt against oppressive governments and regimes. No. Should we hold Jews accountable for the atrocities committed every day in Palestine, Anglos accountable for every crime committed against native people in North America. And to do so would be utter blasphemy. So would singling out one business among many and hold them accountable for fliers they had no control over, which didn't even call, support, or condone the actions which happened May 1st, and especially not when the entire business and the public that supports them have repeatably denounced the actions.
So focus your energy and your hatred at the ones who are making our lives unbearable. Focus your energy and your hatred at the rampant exploitation of humans in the pursuit of a buck, at the complete commodification of our lives. I think that I'm with you when I say that smashing a business window will not help deliver society to some utopian paradise, and we can agree. So please, focus.
I'm afraid that you are completely off topic. I agree that businesses should be held accountable, even if that means, at times, making "ethic" decisions about how they are conducting their business and what that means in terms of our community.
Currently, the city is being run with the best interest of business owners in mind, and actions by the city represent this. I think back specifically to the "stripper poll" being installed illegally at a down town bar called Calahan's (see Sentinel Article: http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/localnews/ci_14806497 ). Notice what action was taken by the police or the city? Nothing.
Why didn't they take any actions against something that was not only illegal in terms of city code but also in terms of morals and ethics, well, because the morals and ethics running this city are profit driven. They are not the same concerns that you or I hold, nor are the representative of the Santa Cruz, or the World, that--I'm sure--you want to be living in or the world--and I am sure--that I want to be living in.
You call for businesses to be responsible for the outside actions of their customers. When these actions are directly related to the business and the services being offer there I agree with you 500%. I see liquor stores and bars as some of the most responsible companies for the misery of my community, and I think they should be held liable. However, if someone takes a Greyhound bus into Santa Cruz, and then commits a crime or legal or moral repugnance, I do not think that they should be held liable for bringing that person to our city.
Likewise, fliers for the May 1st event were distributed throughout the city and the Internet. Should we hold Comcast liable for providing Internet access? Should we hold the public library liable for lending books which condone and support violence and violent revolt against oppressive governments and regimes. No. Should we hold Jews accountable for the atrocities committed every day in Palestine, Anglos accountable for every crime committed against native people in North America. And to do so would be utter blasphemy. So would singling out one business among many and hold them accountable for fliers they had no control over, which didn't even call, support, or condone the actions which happened May 1st, and especially not when the entire business and the public that supports them have repeatably denounced the actions.
So focus your energy and your hatred at the ones who are making our lives unbearable. Focus your energy and your hatred at the rampant exploitation of humans in the pursuit of a buck, at the complete commodification of our lives. I think that I'm with you when I say that smashing a business window will not help deliver society to some utopian paradise, and we can agree. So please, focus.
You and I ARE on the same wavelength.
My bringing up the skanky bar scene was purely to point out the hypocrisy of the people who would brand the people at SubRosa or the organizers of the party for events, truly, outside of their control.
As far as the stripper pole @ Callahans I understand that the women involved are wearing bikinis, which skirts the law apparently.
I was an amateur radio operator at the start of the FIRST incursion into Iraq. An East coast operator put an anti-war message out on 'packet radio'(a form of wireless BBS for amateur radio) which caused a stir as political messages are considered verboten by law.
There WAS an attempt to force EVERY bbs on the path to be responsible for messages going thu their system, which would have essentially shut down that mode of communications. Fortunately the FCC ruled that only the initial station transmitting the message could be held accountable, and be required to, in some way verify the 'amateur' nature of the content in message from their station
IOW, I AM aware of the ramifications to my statement, if enacted.
It was purely an attempt to point out the hypocrisy of the media and other elements that would make a connection between SR and the property damage.
http://auntieimperial.blogspot.com
For more information:
http://auntieimperial.blogspot.com
Auntie, thanks for your response to my comment, I really appreciate it.
I think that in light of whatever it was that happened Saturday night and whomever it is that is responsible, we need to not let the events polarize and dissolve a community of people who truly envision living in a just and equatable society. I hate the business owner, the exploiter, the profiteer with the fire of hell in my heart, but I let that flame motivate me towards building the world that I want to be living in, rather than creating more of the same: more hierarchies of power, more fear of violence, more oppression and more exploitation. I don't care if its a blue suit that's in power or a black hooded sweatshirt--I don't want anyone is a position of power over other people. While humans demonstrate time and time again of their repugnance, they also demonstrate time and time again of the beauty that we're all capable of.
So let's focus on that.
Let's resists the decisive tactics of the City Council, the SCPD, the Sentinel, the Downtown Business Association, because what they're trying to create is a world that we don't want to live in. So unite and resists, but must importantly, let us build and let us construct, for another world is possible--beneath the paving stones and within our hearts.
-RF
I think that in light of whatever it was that happened Saturday night and whomever it is that is responsible, we need to not let the events polarize and dissolve a community of people who truly envision living in a just and equatable society. I hate the business owner, the exploiter, the profiteer with the fire of hell in my heart, but I let that flame motivate me towards building the world that I want to be living in, rather than creating more of the same: more hierarchies of power, more fear of violence, more oppression and more exploitation. I don't care if its a blue suit that's in power or a black hooded sweatshirt--I don't want anyone is a position of power over other people. While humans demonstrate time and time again of their repugnance, they also demonstrate time and time again of the beauty that we're all capable of.
So let's focus on that.
Let's resists the decisive tactics of the City Council, the SCPD, the Sentinel, the Downtown Business Association, because what they're trying to create is a world that we don't want to live in. So unite and resists, but must importantly, let us build and let us construct, for another world is possible--beneath the paving stones and within our hearts.
-RF
Wow. The logic fails. The Taco Bell across the street is an establishment where a lot of people who have literally less than a dollar in their pocket, or the two quarters and two dimes they just begged, all go for food. Is Taco Bell responsible for luring panhandlers and others who bring down the status of Pacific. If Haynes was spotted there, should we figure out who the manager is and put his photo in the paper?
No matter what people whine about with their typing, actions will always speak louder than words. This system that we live under (known as western civilization) is profoundly anti-nature. Notice what happens when it makes contact with people who are living in tune with nature... it kills them. It steals their land. It takes away their autonomy. And whenever a group of people want an alternative arrangement, whenever they DECLARE INDEPENDENCE, the state will attack. Guaranteed. This system causes alienation, pollution, pain and death. Unemployment, racism, war, nuclear weapons, deforestation, poverty, worker stress, eating disorders, slavery, addiction, increasing rules regulations surveillance and centralization etc are all linked to this system's hatred of what's WILD. Of WILD NATURE. It was only matter of time before there was a response, however small, like what when on last Saturday. Long live resistance against those that would pave over nature!
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