June 19th - demo: Stop Killing Palestinian Children

Good to see folks taking a stand for the beautiful people of Palestine.
Let them be free.

For A.N.S.W.E.R to mislead the gullible and their ignorant sheeple this way. They say nothing to their followers and worshippers about the daily rocket and mortar barages the lovely and resilient people of Israel are subjected to since Sep last year, nothing about the illegal intrusion into Israel that climaxed in the kidnapping of a soldier into Gaza and zilch about the kidnapping and cold blood murder of the lovely Jewish teenager from Jerusalem yesterday by the filthy Palestinian terrorists. Shame on them and triple shame on their racist worshippers.

Note to the right wing pro-israel shills: You are irrelevant here. You will remain impotent to change this site.
There will never be an "Israel" page on Indybay.
I know that kills you. LMFAO!

Thats not whats going on at all. The people who showed up in the counter protest are from a Pro-Peace/Pro-Israel group. About 25 Pro-Peace/Pro-Israel people showed up and maybe twice that many for the actual planned event. A few passers by joined the Pro-Peace/Pro-Israel group while the MECA group was soundly ignored by all of Berkely except the cops.

The man on the right at the last picture is “zombie”, indeed he is a supporter of Israel.

http://www.zombietime.com/sf_rally_september_24_2005/love_parade/

Here he is comparing between the left movement and women determining who is sexier (in one of the pictures he making fun of a disabled man).

Here is why he thinks that women should not have the right to choose, the pro-life movement is just more attractive.

http://www.zombietime.com/walk_for_life/part_3/

Here is why he is against immigrants.

http://www.zombietime.com/europe_in_2015/

He is obsessed with secretly taking pictures of naked people in demonstration.

From what people said at the demonstration he is also an anti-gay.


You cannot be a supporter of Israel without being a sexist, racists, anti-gay, and anti-women.

Um, if the guy is "secretly" taking pictures, why is he in bright clothing with a rather sizable camera? He makes a horrible spy if he is trying to be "secret."

rabid, Limbaugh-esque frothing at the mouth right wing useless idiot.
Pro-israel folks love him

This is Zombie's photo-essay of the event

This guy was also taking up close pictures of people. Wonder what his deal is?

Right wing shithole's with a camera. Not impressed

How can you be anti -Israel and pro- gay rights when Israel is the only country in the Middle East that guarantees equality and full civil rights for its LGBT population, including adoption rights and partner benefits? Israel’s LGBT policies are among the most progressive in the world

The “rights” that you are talking about is only for the Jewish gay community, in marriage Palestinian who are married to Jews (heterosexual and gay) are denied citizenship and are expelled from Israel even if they have kids. And this is why so many gay groups are fighting the racist Israeli government.

http://www.blacklaundry.org/eng-index.html

stop trying to milk facts that you don’t have, deal with reality.

> The “rights” that you are talking about is only for the Jewish gay community,

It is for the the gay community of Arabs and Jews. Deal with it.

I noticed you did not make a distinction between the Ashkenazi and Mizrachi gay Jewish community.

> in marriage Palestinian who are married to Jews (heterosexual and gay) are denied citizenship and are
> expelled from Israel even if they have kids.

I assume you mean common law marriage when you refer to gay Palestinians married to Jews. This is something recognized in Israel, but not anywhere else in the region.

Family reunification (when a foreigner, in this case a Palestinian, is married to an Israeli) is a difficult subject in time of war. Due to attempts by certain segments of the society to execute a "Right of Return" via marriage, and a small but significant percentage of those that entered the country turned out to be terrorists, the government has limited family reunification to Palestinian spouses above a certain age -- different for males and females -- to limit the possibilty that those entering the country are doing so to cause harm.

The courts are dealing with this as we speak to try in the best way possible to balance Israel's security with human rights for all its citizens. Sometimes they get it right. Sometimes they don't. That's what happens in the real world.

It is easier for Palestinian gays to remain in the country, at least temporarily because the Israelis know that to go home means death for the Palestinian homosexual. Israel gay rights groups are working hard at either keeping them in the country where they will be safe, or finding another safe harbor for them, generally in Europe.

For the few cases of Palestinians partnered with Israeli gays, the situation is better, with at least one case that I know of where PM Rabin granted permanent status to the Arab partner. At least one other case is pending. As always, the Israeli gay rights groups are involved and fighting.

> And this is why so many gay groups are fighting the racist Israeli government.
> http://www.blacklaundry.org/eng-index.html

Yes, Dalit Baum was just in SF to bash Israel at the Dyke March. Interestingly, not even CLAF, the Lesbian Feminist organization in Israel will deal with Black Laundry. Meanwhile the Agudah, Open House, Other 10% etc. fight certain government policies, but are not trying to bring down the state.
Read about them here http://www.gay.org.il/

Fringe queer groups in Israel serve the same purpose as fringe queer groups in the USA and Europe.

> stop trying to milk facts that you don’t have, deal with reality.

And we are. No problem with reality testing on this end.

Smooches,

PIQ

I did not talk about the oppression against Jews from Arab countries because I did not think that it's relevant to our discussion, if you want me to, I can talk about all the towns full with Arab Jews where there is only poverty and crime.

Again, Palestinian are denied citizenship when married to Arab- Israelis and Jews even when they were married for years with kids. Your excuses about how Arabs are trying to terrorize Israel (by marring someone for years and having kids with them) and how its on the Palestinians to prove that he is not a terrorist (a notion that Israel attributes to anyone who opposes the occupation) only exposes your own racist thinking.

I will also ignore your racist justification of denying the right of return to people because of their religion (I’m sure that as a queer you fallow everything that is said in the Jewish bible) as always people who support Israel expos their own stupidity.

Yes, there were a couple of instances where the racist Israeli government “granted” Palestinian the right to marry their love ones, your point?

Dalit, is not the only person to “bash” Israel, Israeli soldiers, Israeli feminists, and lots of groups and movments in Israel oppose the corrupt and racist Israeli government. That’s the different between the pro Palestinian and the racist side; you won’t see any Palestinian movements supporting the occupation.

As I wrote to you before, if you are so concern about the rights of Arabs in other Arabs countries you should fight for their rights. You can start by opposing America who supports all thous dictators and undermined democratically elected presidents, or anyone that would try to make a different in the Middle East. Again you expose your racist thinking by saying that Arabs are too barbarian to even knew how to make a better society. Your racist government for example, not only helped to construct a coup against Moztek a democratic elected president in Iran, but also trained the Shah secret police in how to torture people.

I’m also wondering what would happen if in a court a person who is accuse of murder would justify it by saying that other people are murdering too.

Some queer movements in the u.s. support the Republican party, some oppose gay rights or women rights, the groups that you are talking about are trying fundamentally to protect there privilege as Jews in Palestine.

But what should I expect out of someone who make stories about torture victims “supporting” Israel (too ignorance to even knew the dictators that Israel supported with arms and military training) or people yelling “hail Hitler” in a demonstration for Palestine (should I ad to list pretending to be someone that you are not?). Does the truth even matters to you?

I doubt (like all Zionists) that you even knew the history of the country that you are trying to protect.

DY LAKIBOSH!!!!!!!

> I did not talk about the oppression against Jews from Arab countries because I did not think that
> it's relevant to our discussion,

But it is. If you say “rights for Jews” and then say that the “racist” state treats Mizrachi Jews in the same class with non-Jewish Arabs and inferior to Ashkenazim, then you do need to clarify. Are Mizrachim Jews or not?

Of course, Ashkenazim, Mizrachim, and Arabs do all have the same rights in Israel, but I am sure you disagree.

> if you want me to, I can talk about all the towns full with Arab Jews where there is only poverty and crime.

It would be fascinating as there is not a single city, town, or village in Israel where there is “only poverty and crime.”

> Again, Palestinian are denied citizenship when married to Arab- Israelis and Jews even when they were
> married for years with kids. Your excuses about how Arabs are trying to terrorize Israel (by marring someone > for years and having kids with them)

Straw man. I did not say that.

> and how its on the Palestinians to prove that he is not a terrorist

False. The government must make their case. Often they lose, just like here because of the burden of proof.

> (a notion that Israel attributes to anyone who opposes the occupation)

False. Unless, of course, you are talking about the “occupation” of Tel-Aviv, Haifa, Eilat and Beer-Sheva.

> I will also ignore your racist justification of denying the right of return to people because of their religion

Again, not true. The Law of Return is applied regardless of religion unless there has been a specific rejection of Jewish peoplehood.

> (I’m sure that as a queer you fallow everything that is said in the Jewish bible) as always people who support > Israel expos their own stupidity.

Straw man.

> Yes, there were a couple of instances where the racist Israeli government “granted” Palestinian the right to
> marry their love ones, your point?

Straw man. The discussion was about family reunification, not recognizing marriage. The point is that cases can be made and they are listened to.

> Dalit, is not the only person to “bash” Israel,

Straw man. Didn’t say she was.

> Israeli soldiers, Israeli feminists, and lots of groups and movments in Israel oppose the corrupt and racist
> Israeli government.

And when did you stop beating your wife? I disagree that the government is racist. The corruption is another issue and is increasing being taken seriously. An MK (not Arab, not Mizrachi, BTW) was stripped of immunity and jailed for corruption very recently.

> That’s the different between the pro Palestinian and the racist side; you won’t see any Palestinian movements
> supporting the occupation.

Interesting dichotomy. One is either pro-Palestinian or racist? Since the current PA government is horrid for the Palestinian people, and they are certainly racist, then I guess the pro-Israel side is also the pro-Palestinian side. I and many others agree with that.

> As I wrote to you before, if you are so concern about the rights of Arabs in other Arabs countries you should
> fight for their rights.

What makes you think that I don’t.

> You can start by opposing America

I oppose some of America’s policies. What makes you think that I don’t?

> Again you expose your racist thinking by saying that Arabs are too barbarian to even knew how to make a
> better society.

Straw man. When did I say or even imply that?

> I’m also wondering what would happen if in a court a person who is accuse of murder would justify it by saying > that other people are murdering too.

Excellent question. If a double standard is applied, then it becomes an issue. If two people are committing the same crime, and one is arrested and the other not, then the courts do look at that. It is why states such as Illinois have suspended the death penalty – the law was not being applied equally.

> Some queer movements in the u.s. support the Republican party, some oppose gay rights or women rights,
> the groups that you are talking about are trying fundamentally to protect there privilege as Jews in Palestine.

So to be clear, you oppose the mainstream gay rights groups in Israel? Even the ones that work on behalf of Arabs and Palestinians? Is this privilege just for Ashkenazi Jews?

> But what should I expect out of someone who make stories about torture victims “supporting” Israel

You lost me there. Was this something from another thread that someone else said?

> or people yelling “hail Hitler” in a demonstration for Palestine

From what I read, it was the anti-Israel demonstrators who yelled “heil Hitler” at the pro-Israel/pro-Peace demonstrators. There are probably pictures floating around of them giving the salute. It’s been documented many times at previous demonstrations.

> Does the truth even matters to you?

Of course. Does it matter to you?

> DY LAKIBOSH!!!!!!!

I can agree with that one, at least as concerns the West Bank, but the “Quartet” seem to all be saying to continue the occupation until a negotiating partner can be found.

Smooches,

PIQ

As usual with Zionists they ignore the subject, deny the truth, and avoid the questions that they can’t deal with.

The oppression against Jews from Arab-countries is different that the one directed towards Palestinian and Arab-Israelis. Like in America there is a hierarchy of racism.

“Of course, Ashkenazim, Mizrachim, and Arabs do all have the same rights in Israel, but I am sure you disagree.”

Of course that I would disagree; your countries jails are full of with mostly Jews from Arab countries. One can buy drugs are ether populated with Arabs or Arab Jews. And if Arabs have the same rights in Israel why did the police massacred 13 Arab Israeli civilians in 2000? (for you it probably never happen). And start by researching Ramla-lod.

“Your excuses about how Arabs are trying to terrorize Israel (by marring someone > for years and having kids with them) Straw man. I did not say that.”

Yes, you did say that: “and a small but significant percentage of those that entered the country turned out to be terrorists,” but for you everything is normal with the military courts who judge
Palestinian.

“False. The government must make their case. Often they lose, just like here because of the burden of proof.”
Out of all your lies this one is the best, when do the state of Israel loses their case? Did you ever read the stories of military tribunals that judges Palestinian? Palestinian and Arab Israelis who are judge by a military court have the chance of people who were abducted and judge at Gitmo. Do you even know the new laws that allow prisoning a person without him seeing a lawyer? But for you all that make perfect sense, not only that, for you its normal.

“False. Unless, of course, you are talking about the “occupation” of Tel-Aviv, Haifa, Eilat and Beer-Sheva.”

Your racist country not only have jailed but also killed innocent people that your country have decided are terrorist.

“The Law of Return is applied regardless of religion unless there has been a specific rejection of Jewish peoplehood.”

The definition of who is Jewish is by religion. So if you support the racist government of Israel and their definition of “nationalism”, then you accept the definition of religion as“nationalism”. Since your country only except people who converted through a religious orthodox procider (Israel deny people who converted to Judaism through other religion sect) I ask you again, as a queer how exactly do you except the definition of nationality according to religion that would deny your right to live freely. (Feel free to avoid this question again by relating to semantics of my writing). As usual, people who support Israel expose their own stupidity.

“The discussion was about family reunification, not recognizing marriage. The point is that cases can be made and they are listened to.”

The discussion was about marriage in general, I was talking about heterosexual and gay marriage. But you can always ignore the question of why your country expels parteners of jewish people even if they have kids by running away from it. And while we are talking about how your racist country define marriage, can you tall me why woman in Israel need to ask for their ex-husband premition to have the right to remarry again?

My point about people who oppose the corrupt and racist government of Israel was that you wont see Palestinian movements supporting the occupation (a notion that you ignore) and that a government who passes laws who deny Palestinian and Arab rights is racist (for you this laws probably never existed)

Your comment about how corruption is taken more and more seriously in Israel is not only naïve but a lie. But what bother me the most is the how your government protects and never prosecutes settlers who are harassing and killing Palestinian. But for that is probably normal or never happen.

And yes, your ether opposes the occupation and the genocide against the Palestinian or you are a racist. there is no middle ground. in south Africa people who supported the racist oppression of black people were racist, their twisted way of seeing reality have nothing to do with how reality really is.

And your government have always branded the PA terrorist, and claimed that there is no partner (while building more settlement and assassinating people) so why do you care if after all this years the Palestinian have voted for the Hamas?

“I guess the pro-Israel side is also the pro-Palestinian side. I and many others agree with that.”

And here again you expose your own racist thinking by saying (again) that Arabs (Palestinian) are not cable of wanting peace (and need the colonizer education to civilize them).

“I oppose some of America’s policies. What makes you think that I don’t?”

As usual with Zionists you contradict your self. So, if America supports dictators all over the world undermine democracy, and bomb kids for oil, than why when it comes to Israel suddenly you believe their intention in protecting “democracy” in the Middle East? Its always amaze me how people who support Israel don’t even knew the history of the country that they are trying to defend.

What’s the point of me debating you if for you oppression, genocide, and racist laws that your country is upholding do not exist? If everything so normal in your country why do people fight your government? Why 13 Arab people were massacred by your police in 2000? What’s the difference between wasting my time on people like you and debating people who say that America is the land of democracy and that there is no oppression against minorities, and that the war on terrorist is necessary to achieve security? What’s the deference between you and people who uphold the right of America to abduct people from their home and judge them in secret military tribunals? Or people who say that their no oppression against gay people in this country?

But what’s really shucking to me is that as a queer you support Israel, a country that employ as one of their torture tactics rape. But for you like with all other oppression that does not exist, or justify and normal.

O, and ye, I would like to see the pictures of people yelling “hail Hitler”.

Lahitraot,

m.

Here are some things that I found on “sf voice for Israel”. Beside the usual playing victim and accusing everyone of being anti-Semitic there is a link to an essay
http://www.likud.nl/press330.html by Alan M. Dershowitz, as usual with Dershowitch he ignores facts, and history. Here is an interesting comment form the essay
” Indeed, were Israel to end its occupation of Gaza and most of the West Bank (as I have long believed it should), it is likely that terrorism would actually increase as terrorist commanders secure more freedom to plan and implement terrorist actions. The same might well be true in Iraq, were the United States to pick up and run.
The time has come to address the real root cause of suicide bombing: elitist incitement by certain religious and political leaders who are creating a culture of death and exploiting the ambiguous teachings of an important religion.”
You see for Dershewitz and people who support Israel the problem is not with America invading countries, bombing kids for oil, constructing coup against elected presidents. The problem is not with America having military bases in rich oil country’s that make sure that corrupt government would follow the policies of Washington. The problem is not even with Israel occupying Palestinian for years and years denying them rights. The problem is with religious leaders. That’s interesting since Dershowitz on the “the 700 hundred club” had no problem talking to a religious fanatic Pet Robertson who advocate the killing of presidents, and is an anti-gay, and anti woman, Dworshvits talked about his new McCarchy stile book “the hundred most dangerous professors”.
Also, if Muslims (not civilize Christians) would only increase terrorism after Israel and America withdrew from Iraq and Palestine, than why should america and israel end the occupation?

I also recommend people to read the link to “licode” a racist Israeli party in the Israeli government who rejected the Oslo agreement.

As usual with people who support Israel, the facts or the ideology are not important.

M: "if Arabs have the same rights in Israel why did the police massacred 13 Arab Israeli civilians in 2000? (for you it probably never happen). And start by researching Ramla-lod."

1. The Ramle and Lydda uprootings occured during the 1948 independence war while the Arabs, including many local, were committing far worse atrocities that you don't care to mention at all.
2. Those 13 Arabs in Oct 2000 were putting policemen's lives in danger while rioting and the police didn't have adequate riot gear to disperse them without using lethal force. Understand?

-----

Queer: “False. The government must make their case. Often they lose, just like here because of the burden of proof.”

M: "Out of all your lies this one is the best, when do the state of Israel loses their case? Did you ever read the stories of military tribunals that judges Palestinian?"

First off, sometimes the state loses its case in the Supreme Court of Justice located in Jerusalem.
Secondly, military tribunals are known to have commuted some sentences, including death. I've heard such stories.

-------

queer: “False. Unless, of course, you are talking about the “occupation” of Tel-Aviv, Haifa, Eilat and Beer-Sheva.”

M: "Your racist country not only have jailed but also killed innocent people that your country have decided are terrorist. "

You're wrong about the killing part. The jailing, namely administrative detention, happens to extremist rightwing Jews too. So this draconian regulation seems to be aplied fairly. And don't tell me I don't know crap.

------

queer: “The Law of Return is applied regardless of religion unless there has been a specific rejection of Jewish peoplehood.”


M: "The definition of who is Jewish is by religion. So if you support the racist government of Israel and their definition of “nationalism”, then you accept the definition of religion as “nationalism”."

The pro-Israel queer was actually talking about entry into Israel; I don't think he or she meant the Law of Return.
Anyhow, religion and nationalism go hand in hand in Judaism. Most religions don't don't have that, but Judaism is an odd example out there. No one is going to change this so you might as well come to ters with it somehow.

M: "Since your country only except people who converted through a religious orthodox procider (Israel deny people who converted to Judaism through other religion sect)"

This is not true anymore, M. Please avail yourself of the latest developements in this arena. Non orthodox conversions are recognized if:
1. a person converted to Judaism outside of Israel.
2. one began coverting in Israel through the Orthodox procedure and later left for another country and completed the conversion proccess through non-Orthodoxy.

----

queer: “The discussion was about family reunification, not recognizing marriage. The point is that cases can be made and they are listened to.”

M: "The discussion was about marriage in general, I was talking about heterosexual and gay marriage. But you can always ignore the question of why your country expels parteners of jewish people even if they have kids by running away from it."

Let me interject for a sec. Do you acknowledge that many of those partners are stayed in Israel illegally? Do you respect Israel's sovereignty at all?

M: "And while we are talking about how your racist country define marriage, can you tall me why woman in Israel need to ask for their ex-husband premition to have the right to remarry again?"

Another interruption. - This is only true for husbands that disappear and refuse to give these women a Get for devorce. That's the way it's done in Rabbinite Judaism. But in non-Rabbinnite Judaism this doesn't happen at all.

M: "My point about people who oppose the corrupt and racist government of Israel was that you wont see Palestinian movements supporting the occupation (a notion that you ignore) and that a government who passes laws who deny Palestinian and Arab rights is racist (for you this laws probably never existed)"

1. The real question regarding ostensibly moderate Palestnians is why we don't see Palestinian versions of Peace Now, Women in Black, Gush Shalom, yadda yadda.
2. The Israeli govt. only passes restrictive laws for security concerns posed by the Palestinian extreminsts whom you're gving a blank check. You don't recognize Israel's right to protect its citizens from violent Palestinians who seek to massacre many Jews by entering Israel proper via reunification.

M: "But what bother me the most is the how your government protects and never prosecutes settlers who are harassing and killing Palestinian. But for that is probably normal or never happen. "

Now you are the one lying here, M. Ever heard of Noam Federman who was locked up in administrative detention and prosecuted a zillion time? Or Itamar ben Gvir, or Moshe Levinger, or Daniella Weis, or Yehuda Etzion, etc? Obviously not. You're complaining without having your facts in order. You seem to enjoy complaining for the heck of it.

M: "And yes, your ether opposes the occupation and the genocide against the Palestinian or you are a racist."

But this notion of genocide is a crock of excrement. I claim those who wield it are the vile racists. And the racists also don't say a ward about the violent attrocities being wrought upon Israel and its people by Palestinian terrorists.

M: "there is no middle ground. in south Africa people who supported the racist oppression of black people were racist, their twisted way of seeing reality have nothing to do with how reality really is. "

If you really maintain there's no middle ground you're racist by your own standards. And SA isn't analogous to the situation in discussion here. Its not a black or white situation. Far from it. The Palestinians target innocents for murder with mortars and rockets daily and occasionally manage to sneak inside a suicide bomber to massacre dozens. If you ignore all this you're racist for sure. The Palis are far from being innocent sweet victims.

M: "And your government have always branded the PA terrorist, and claimed that there is no partner"

This isn't true. I believe you're speaking falsely out of emotion instead of rationally.

M: "while building more settlement"

Building them isn't wrong everywhere and every time. If Jews own land legally through purchase or inheritance or land had been stolen from them during the Jordanian occuparion, they deserve to build settlements on those lands. It's racist to exclude Jewish rights in a blanket manner.

M: "and assassinating people"

When the PA doesn't wasnt to put terrorists on trial and even encourages them to massacre Israeli innocents, don't be surprised if the Israelis assassinate such villains.

M:" so why do you care if after all this years the Palestinian have voted for the Hamas?"

Excuse me... do you want peace or not? If you want it you've got to oppose Hamas with every fiber of your being. To not oppose Hamas is a prescription for incessant warfare against Israel that will retaliate in a non-ending so-called cycle of violence.

-----

M: "Its always amaze me how people who support Israel don’t even knew the history of the country that they are trying to defend. "

You still have many things to learn yourself. Frankly I don't think you're in a position to preach to others.

-------

M: "But what’s really shucking to me is that as a queer you support Israel, a country that employ as one of their torture tactics rape. But for you like with all other oppression that does not exist, or justify and normal. "

Another interjection. - Your "torture tactics rape" accusation is parroting a lie. It doesn't happen. Did you ever read that the Israeli Supreme Court outlawed all forms in torture except sleep deprivation in 1999? Obviously not.


M: "Lahitraot, "

Hopefully never.

Sudarsan Raghavan, Knight Ridder-Newspapers,

"Disguised gunmen kill 4: Girl, 5, among victims of terrorists in Israeli army uniforms"

ADORA, West Bank
Palestinian terrorists dressed as Israeli soldiers slipped into a quiet Israeli settlement near Hebron Saturday morning...
The gunmen entered the home of 5-year-old Danielle Sheffi, who lived with her parents and three siblings. After they left, the little girl's room-- decorated with a Micky Mouse doll, bed sheet, and poster-- was scattered with bullet holes and stained with blood.
Danielle died instantly.

Why don't Arabs welcome their Palestinian Arab brothers? (typical pro-israel talking point/false assertion)

To accept compulsory population transfer in principle would set a dangerous precedent for international relations, and many nations would use such an excuse to cleanse themselves from "unwanted minorities". In other words, if it is accepted in principle that one can transfer and dispossess the Palestinian people so that Jews can have a "Jewish state," then

Why would it be unacceptable to "transfer" 10 million Mexican Americans to Mexico? or
To "transfer" a million Kosovan Albanians to Albania?, or
Even to "transfer" 6 million American Jews to the "Jewish state"?

Ironically, Serbia, under Milosevic's leadership in 1999, used a similar argument to cleanse itself from its "unwanted Albanian minority", (of course under the pretext that Kosovo was central to Serbia's ancient heritage and religious past).

Consequently, the act of compulsory population transfer (Ethnic Cleansing) has been accepted internationally as a war crime, and on that basis both Serbia and Iraq were subjected to international condemnations, and U.N. resolutions were enforced by military action to stop and reverse these war crimes.

For the moment, let's assume that the above argument are nonsense to the average Israeli or Zionist. Let us analyze why the integration of Palestinian refugees into neighboring host countries is not viable for the following economic and political reasons:

Economic reasons

* It should be emphasized that 75% of the new Jewish immigrants to Israel, after the 1948 war, operated looted Palestinians houses, farms, cars, truck, banks, and the infrastructure resource such as water networks, the power grids, railroads, airports, wells, the telegraph network, and the schools, roads, and ports.

In other words, Israel has had the looted Palestinian capital as collateral, German compensation money for war crimes committed during WW II, and over 120 billion dollars in American taxpayers' money to help settle the new Jewish immigrants. On the other hand, Palestinian refugees and their corresponding host countries had no such good fortune. If Palestinians are to be helped to settle someone else's country, they have to take somebody else's property, which is unfair and unjust to others. From an economical standpoint, the biggest economic boost the "Jewish State" had was the looted and stolen Palestinian properties.

* For a second, let's assume that such repatriation is possible in the host countries, and calculate the cost of such repatriation. For example, let's assume that we need to provide a reasonable health care insurance (not government subsidized) for each Palestinian refugee in Jordan (which hosts close to 3 million Palestinian refugees), and let us also assume that such insurance costs a $100/month per refugee. So the total yearly cost of providing health care insurance to all refugees in Jordan is at least 3.6 billion dollars = $100 * 12 months * 3 million refugees. Note that we have not yet analyzed the costs of providing infrastructure services, i.e. roads, water networks, power grids, education, transportations, ports, airports, ...etc. While contemplating these staggering numbers, keep in mind that the annual budget for the Jordanian government is little over 6 billion dollars, compared to 53 billion dollar for Israel.

While the average Jordanian citizen has some kind of collateral (such as land, real state, ... etc. ) to support his or her future well being, the average Palestinian refugee has nothing but his or her tent as collateral, and even the tent belongs to the United Nations. Consequently, the net worth (in economic terms) of the average Palestinian is almost nil, which negatively impacts tax revenues in the host countries. In fact, the huge number of refugees stifled economic growth in these host countries for several decades-since many essential services had to be diverted to help the refugees.

Ironically, the absence of the Palestinian economic base has motivated the average Palestinian to invest in his or her intellectual capital. It's really amazing how many Palestinians live the lives of many Jews in the past. In general, Europeans used to restrict land purchases by their Jewish citizens, which in return motivated many Jews to invest in their intellectual capital.
* For the moment assume that the above economic formula is nonsense to the average Israeli or Zionist, then let's ask the following questions:

If it's easy for the host Arab countries to integrate Palestinian refugees into their economic and social structure, then why after three decades of Israeli military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, has Israel been unable to improve the lives of the Palestinian refugees under its direct control?

If it's easy for the host countries to integrate the refugees (despite their limited resources), then surely it should be much easier for Israel to do so?

Paradoxically, many Palestinian refugees' economic situation has actually worsened under Israeli occupation, and if it were not for United Nations' food rations, many refugees would have starved by now! In fact, malnutrition among Palestinian Children in the occupied West Bank and the occupied Gaza Strip has increased by 1600% since September of 2000.

* It's unfair to claim that many Arab countries did not integrate Palestinian refugees into their economic, social, and even political structures. Out of the 5.9 million Palestinian refugees, there are 3.5 million refugees who still live in refugee camps (usually known as "registered refugees"). So despite all of the above obstacles, some 2 million Palestinian refugees (almost half the number of the Israeli Jews) are already integrated into the host countries' economic, political, and social structures.

Political Reasons

* For the above economic reasons, Palestinian refugees were obliged to compete for all available resources in the host countries and continue to do so. The average Palestinian (ironically, like many Jews in the West) knows that he or she has to work twice as hard as the local worker just to keep his or her job. On average, Palestinians (for economic and political reasons) are not welcomed in the host countries, and that generates anti-Palestinian feeling. For instance, take the discriminatory practices of the Lebanese government where Palestinians are excluded from 73 job types, such engineering, health care, financing, ... etc.

Although this behavior is deplorable, it is a natural reaction by any state to any external threat to its resources, and this is a common experience among Jews when they emigrate to the "Jewish state". It should be noted that it is still a tense situation between Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and African Israeli Jews, and the blood of the latter was not welcomed in Israeli blood banks for a very long time.

* It should be noted that even if the Palestinian refugees are integrated into the host countries, that won't stop Palestinians from demanding their right to return to their homes in Israel. Palestinians are extremely proud of their national identity, and continuously assert their unique cultural and political differences at the earliest possible opportunity. This deep sense of nationalism is widely shared most Palestinians, especially among the affluent families, who are already integrated in Western and Arab societies, i.e. in the US, Europe, Canada, ... etc. Actually, many of them still marry from the same indigenous localities, and maintain their unique dresses, folklore, and accents.

The major obstacle that many Israelis and Zionists have in their dealings with Palestinians is that they think that 8.5 million Palestinians have no national rights, such as the right of self determination. Paradoxically, they believe that 4.5 million Jews in Israel have the right of self determination! From the start, the struggle between Zionism and the Palestinian people was a struggle between two distinct and conflicting nationalistic movements.

* Most, if not all, host countries are hesitant to grant political rights (such as the right to vote) to non-citizens, especially if the "newcomers" could overnight change the political landscape. This political problem was the case in Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria soon after the 1948 war. For example, Jordan's citizens became (overnight) a minority in their own country. To ask the average Jordanian to accept this situation on a permanent basis, without anything in return, is to create a "political time bomb". Unfortunately, this "political time bomb" has already exploded in Jordan and Lebanon, and its after shocks are still felt today.


There is no question of the fact that some political movements have benefited politically and economically from not integrating the Palestinian refugees. We agree that all host countries used (and will continue to use) the refugees as a tool to collect international aid and bribes. We also concur that suppressing Palestinians makes political and economic sense to some regional leaders. On the other hand, it's not fair to point the finger of blame at the host countries for not solving a problem that Israel has created. By blocking the Palestinian refugees' return to their homes, farms, and businesses, Israel has made this problem persist and fester for many generations, and it has to put up the lion's share of the effort needed to solve it.

I will answer this one not because I think that brain-wash racists can actually learn how to relate to reality, but because I think its hilarious to see all the Zionists that coming to Indybay panicked because people here actually fight oppression, let just say that it’s my little Intifada.

“Those 13 Arabs in Oct 2000 were putting policemen's lives in danger while rioting and the police didn't have adequate riot gear to disperse them without using lethal force. Understand?”
Ye, I mean so what if Arab in that area complained menthes before that the police was harassing them, or that one of the judges quit the community that was “investigating” the incidents. I mean the police said it, I believe it, and that settled it. Like the rest of your “history” you rely only on what the Israeli government determines to be true.

“Secondly, military tribunals are known to have commuted some sentences, including death. I've heard such stories.”
Really? Why don’t provide with some actual evident?

“The jailing, namely administrative detention, happens to extremist rightwing Jews too. So this draconian regulation seems to be aplied fairly. And don't tell me I don't know crap.”
Ha……ye, you really don’t knew crap. the fact that your racist country jail a handful of extremist does not justify the thousands of arrest and KILLING of people not only because Israel have decided that they are terrorist but also as a pressure on some distance relative that they have.

“Anyhow, religion and nationalism go hand in hand in Judaism. Most religions don't don't have that, but Judaism is an odd example out there. No one is going to change this so you might as well come to ters with it somehow.”

Really? Why do Judaism and nationalism go hand in hand together? That’s news to me, I always thought that during the long years of the Galot, Jews believed that the only when the Messiah would come they will return to Israel, not only that, Zionism was oppose from the first day to religions Jews, it was secular. The religious fascism that you are talking about have only develop with rabbi Cock, and was applied to Israel in order to justify the taking of the Palestinian land, and to deny Palestinian the right to return to their homes.


“Do you acknowledge that many of those partners are stayed in Israel illegally? “

Ha, that’s the whole point. In any normal state if one is married to a citizen, defiantly if they have kids together, he can become a citizen. He is not expelled from the country because of his religion, race, or color of skin.

“This is only true for husbands that disappear and refuse to give these women a Get for devorce. That's the way it's done in Rabbinite Judaism. But in non-Rabbinnite Judaism this doesn't happen at all.”

That’s like your other theories is not true. When a couple gets married in Israel they can register in a religious court, if they do, when they divorce the husband need to give his premition to the divorce.

“The real question regarding ostensibly moderate Palestnians is why we don't see Palestinian versions of Peace Now, Women in Black, Gush Shalom, yadda yadda.”
There is version of Palestinian peace movement that as one sided thinking racist you would not be aware of. The point is still true, you won’t see Palestinian supporting the occupation.

“Now you are the one lying here, M. Ever heard of Noam Federman who was locked up in administrative detention and prosecuted a zillion time? Or Itamar ben Gvir, or Moshe Levinger, or Daniella Weis, or Yehuda Etzion, etc? Obviously not. You're complaining without having your facts in order. You seem to enjoy complaining for the heck of it.”

Here is what I picket up just by goggling “settler Palestinian” you don’t need to be a brilliant to search for that. But as usual with Zionists they don’t really read more then the bible and some propaganda from the Israeli government.

http://english.people.com.cn/english/200108/30/eng20010830_78803.html

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/6/29/121319.shtml

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=9277

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,764903,00.html

the handful of racist pigs that your government use as shock troops against the Palestinian are jailed only when they get out of hand, and its nothing compare to the mass arrest of Palestinian.

“If you want it you've got to oppose Hamas with every fiber of your being. To not oppose Hamas is a prescription for incessant warfare against Israel that will retaliate in a non-ending so-called cycle of violence.”
let me ask you a question, how was the Hamas created from the first place? Who allowed to this organization to flourish in it first days?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/ZER403A.html
“Your "torture tactics rape" accusation is parroting a lie. It doesn't happen. Did you ever read that the Israeli Supreme Court outlawed all forms in torture except sleep deprivation in 1999? Obviously not.”

There is a book called “Global Lockdown” http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0415950570/103-5132761-4169443?v=glance&n=283155
that documents the use of rape against Palestinian women by the Israeli secret service. It was not approved by your ministry of propaganda, and it involved critical thinking, so I’m sure that you never read it. And yes I knew that your country passes “laws” about how to torture people. These laws from the testimony of Palestinian are always ignored.

I ignore the usual mumbling about “democracy” “security” and how its o.k. to build settlements on occupied territory. Again there is no difference debating people like you and debating people who believe that America stand for “democracy” that the war for oil is for the “Iraqi people” and that abducting people and torturing people is o.k. since America is fighting “terrorism”. What’s the difference between you and people who accept everything that the American government tall them?

Like most Zionists, you pick and choose from history. There is no difference between you and people who deny the holocaust. Just like holocaust deniers, you never believe the testimony of survivors and attribute everything to a conspiracy to exterminate the Jewish (Arian?) “nation”.

http://www.palestineremembered.com/ Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story424.html

Just give the url- don't waste bandwith
Better etiquette all around

In the early 1990s, I spent quite a bit of time in Sderot, one of Israel's southern development towns that sits at the northeastern tip of the Gaza Strip. At the time, I was coordinator of the Operation Exodus campaign of the Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle, and Sderot was our twin community.

The idea was that a portion of the money raised in Seattle for Soviet emigration would be channeled directly to Sderot to help them absorb an additional 11,000 immigrants. The entire population of Sderot back then was only 12,000, so the town was expected to almost double its size over a period of just a few years.

I remember sitting in the sweltering conference room of the bare-bones municipality building in 1990, as city officials explained where the new neighborhood of pre-fab houses would be built, not far from the burgeoning industrial zone. There was optimism in the air despite the obvious challenges of integrating such large numbers of people who had little in common with the largely North African Sderot old-timers. The newcomers would revitalize the town and stimulate the economy, we were told, and Sderot would become an attractive regional center. A safe community, secure in its uncontroversial status inside the Green Line.

These memories came flooding back last week, as I sat in that same conference room listening to Eli Moyal, the ashen-faced, exhausted and exasperated Likud mayor of Sderot.

Not much has changed in the modest building -- the same tired-looking, once-white stucco covers the walls, and the giant size map of the city in the conference room hasn't been updated. But the most striking difference in that conference room is the 13 pictures of Sderot residents killed in terror and Kassam attacks. Several of them are children, including Ayala Abucassis, 17, who was killed by a Kassam rocket last year on a Sderot street. A couple of the terror victims are Russian-speaking immigrants.

Since the Israeli withdrawal from Gush Katif last summer, Sderot has become the new address for a barrage of Kassam rockets fired from the area of the now-destroyed Jewish communities of Dugit, Alei Sinai and Nisanit. According to IDF statistics, more than 600 Kassams have been launched against Israel from the Gaza Strip since last September. Several have targeted the Ashkelon industrial area, but it's Sderot, barely three miles away from Beit Hanoun, that has borne the brunt of the onslaught.

Last weekend alone, seventy of the crude arrowhead missiles were launched toward Israel. Four Israelis were wounded and a few buildings were damaged. Every time there's an incoming Kassam, a warning siren sounds. It's called ‘Red Dawn' and provides all of 15 seconds for people to dive next to a wall or under the bed. To say that the citizens of Sderot are on edge would be a severe understatement.

A group of residents is currently conducting a hunger strike in a small Sderot park. Their demand is simple - get the IDF to strike Beit Hanoun so they can live in peace and quiet. The park where they've set up their protest tent is a few yards away from the home of Defense Minister Amir Peretz, leader of Israel's Labor party. Peretz hasn't been home much lately - he's too busy issuing empty threats from Jerusalem. On Wednesday, Peretz clearly warned Hamas to stop launching rockets at southern Israel or "face the wrath of the IDF." One day later, when a Kassam collapses an industrial building in Sderot injuring one worker, Peretz tells the Knesset plenum his preference would be for both sides to work out their differences within the context of an agreement.

Anger at such government policy is palpable all over Sderot. Over at the AMIT High School, a few short yards away from the municipality and Sderot's central square, students are squeezed into the ground-floor classrooms since May 21, when a Kassam burst through the red-tile roof, shattering the ceiling of the 11th grade classroom. The teenage boys were finishing morning prayers in the school's synagogue when the missile hit.

"They're shocked, afraid. Everyone is frustrated at the government," Rabbi Amit Orenbuch, the soft-spoken school principal says. "The students feel that nothing is as it should be," he goes on. Orenbuch, himself a seven-year resident of Sderot, says this is the worst period he remembers in the town.

A few of the teenagers come out to talk to reporters. In the typical manner of teenage boys, they put on a facade of bravado - tense smiles cover their fears as they proclaim how they're okay and have no difficulties dealing with the situation.

Mayor Moyal has a more sober assessment of the effect of the Kassams on Sderot's children. "More than 50 percent of kids here are suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome," he asserts. "It manifests in all kinds of ways - they're sleeping in their parents' beds, can't concentrate on their studies, taking pills."

Moyal pledges that by the end of the month, no kids will be left in Sderot. All 5,000 children will be sent to summer camps in other parts of the country to protect them from additional trauma.

Moyal isn't placated by government promises to reinforce schools with Kassam-proof roofs: "I don't believe in protection - what we need is to prevent the terrorists launching missiles at us. Israel isn't really fighting terror, our government is trying to negotiate with terrorists."

The Likud mayor doesn't mince words in conveying his disgust at his Palestinian neighbors. "There's no reason the Palestinians keep on sh***ing on us after we took all our troops out of Gaza. It's just blatant hatred, that's why they're shooting at us. There are no Palestinian demands on this land. I'm calling on the citizens of Sderot not to go anywhere - we'll stay here forever. Not because we're strong, but because we're right. We won't give them the satisfaction of giving in to terror."

At his press conferences with world leaders last week, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert barely mentioned the suffering citizens of Sderot. Mr. Olmert shouldn't expect a quiet homecoming.

Hey? Thanks for the cut and paste from right wing "Front Page" ragazine. If we wanted that, we'd watch the mianstream right wing media (AM talk radio, Fox, ABC, CNN, CBS, NBC, etc.)
Thanks for the propaganda, but no thanks.
We come here for something different---a balance.

Zionism And Its Impact


The Zionist movement has maintained a striking continuity in its aims and methods over the past century. From the start, the movement sought to achieve a Jewish majority in Palestine and to establish a Jewish state on as much of the LAND as possible. The methods included promoting mass Jewish immigration and acquiring tracts of land that would become the inalienable property of the Jewish people. This policy inevitably prevented the indigenous Arab residents from attaining their national goals and establishing a Palestinian state. It also necessitated displacing Palestinians from their lands and jobs when their presence conflicted with Zionist interests.

The Zionist movement—and subsequently the state of ISRAEL—failed to develop a positive approach to the Palestinian presence and aspirations. Although many Israelis recognized the moral dilemma posed by the Palestinians, the majority either tried to ignore the issue or to resolve it by force majeure. Thus, the Palestine problem festered and grew, instead of being resolved.
Historical Background
The British Mandate
The Zionist Movement
Practical Zionism
Policies Toward the Palestinians
Conclusion
Historical Background

The Zionist movement arose in late nineteenth-century Europe, influenced by the nationalist ferment sweeping that continent. Zionism acquired its particular focus from the ancient Jewish longing for the return to Zion and received a strong impetus from the increasingly intolerable conditions facing the large Jewish community in tsarist Russia. The movement also developed at the time of major European territorial acquisitions in Asia and Africa and benefited from the European powers' competition for influence in the shrinking Ottoman Empire.

One result of this involvement with European expansionism, however, was that the leaders of the nascent nationalist movements in the Middle East viewed Zionism as an adjunct of European colonialism. Moreover, Zionist assertions of the contemporary relevance of the Jews' historical ties to Palestine, coupled with their land purchases and immigration, alarmed the indigenous population of the Ottoman districts that Palestine comprised. The Jewish community (yishuv) rose from 6 percent of Palestine's population in 1880 to 10 percent by 1914. Although the numbers were insignificant, the settlers were outspoken enough to arouse the opposition of Arab leaders and induce them to exert counter pressure on the Ottoman regime to prohibit Jewish immigration and land buying.

As early as 1891, a group of Muslim and Christian notables cabled Istanbul, urging the government to prohibit Jewish immigration and land purchase. The resulting edicts radically curtailed land purchases in the sanjak (district) of JERUSALEM for the next decade. When a Zionist Congress resolution in 1905 called for increased colonization, the Ottoman regime suspended all land transfers to Jews in both the sanjak of Jerusalem and the wilayat (province) of Beirut.

After the coup d'etat by the Young Turks in 1908, the Palestinians used their representation in the central parliament and their access to newly opened local newspapers to press their claims and express their concerns. They were particularly vociferous in opposition to discussions that took place between the financially hard-pressed Ottoman regime and Zionist leaders in 1912-13, which would have let the world Zionist Organization purchase crown land (jiftlik) in the Baysan Valley, along the Jordan River.

The Zionists did not try to quell Palestinian fears, since their concern was to encourage colonization from Europe and to minimize the obstacles in their path. The only effort to meet to discuss their aspirations occurred in the spring of 1914. Its difficulties illustrated the incompatibility in their aspirations. The Palestinians wanted the Zionists to present them with a document that would state their precise political ambitions, their willingness to open their schools to Palestinians, and their intentions of learning Arabic and integrating with the local population. The Zionists rejected this proposal.
The British Mandate

The proclamation of the BALFOUR DECLARATION on November 2, 1917, and the arrival of British troops in Palestine soon after, transformed the political situation. The declaration gave the Zionist movement its long-sought legal status. The qualification that: nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine seemed a relatively insignificant obstacle to the Zionists, especially since it referred only to those communities': civil and religious rights, not to political or national rights. The subsequent British occupation gave Britain the ability to carry out that pledge and provide the protection necessary for the Zionists to realize their aims.

In fact, the British had contracted three mutually contradictory promises for the future of Palestine. The Sykes-Picot Agreement of 1916 with the French and Russian governments proposed that Palestine be placed under international administration. The HUSAYN-MCMAHON CORRESPONDENCE, 1915-1916, on whose basis the Arab revolt was launched, implied that Palestine would be included in the zone of Arab independence. In contrast, the Balfour Declaration encouraged the colonization of Palestine by Jews, under British protection. British officials recognized the irreconcilability of these pledges but hoped that a modus vivendi could be achieved, both between the competing imperial powers, France and Britain, and between the Palestinians and the Jews. Instead, these contradictions set the stage for the three decades of conflict-ridden British rule in Palestine.

Initially, many British politicians shared the Zionists' assumption that gradual, regulated Jewish immigration and settlement would lead to a Jewish majority in Palestine, whereupon it would become independent, with legal protection for the Arab minority. The assumption that this could be accomplished without serious resistance was shattered at the outset of British rule. Britain thereafter was caught in an increasingly untenable position, unable to persuade either Palestinians or Zionists to alter their demands and forced to station substantial military forces in Palestine to maintain security.

The Palestinians had assumed that they would gain some form of independence when Ottoman rule disintegrated, whether through a separate state or integration with neighboring Arab lands. These hopes were bolstered by the Arab revolt, the entry of Faysal Ibn Husayn into Damascus in 1918, and the proclamation of Syrian independence in 1920. Their hopes were dashed, however, when Britain imposed direct colonial rule and elevated the yishuv to a special status. Moreover, the French ousted Faysal from Damascus in July 1920, and British compensation—in the form of thrones in Transjordan and Iraq for Abdullah and Faysal, respectively—had no positive impact on the Arabs in Palestine. In fact, the action underlined the different treatment accorded Palestine and its disadvantageous political situation. These concerns were exacerbated by Jewish immigration: the yishuv comprised 28 percent of the population by 1936 and reached 32 percent by 1947 (click here for Palestine's population distribution per district in 1946).

The British umbrella was CRITICALLY important to the growth and consolidation of the yishuv, enabling it to root itself firmly despite Palestinian opposition. Although British support diminished in the late 1930s, the yishuv was strong enough by then to withstand the Palestinians on its own. After World War II, the Zionist movement also was able to turn to the emerging superpower, the UNITED STATES, for diplomatic support and legitimization.

The Palestinians' responses to Jewish immigration, land purchases, and political demands were remarkably consistent. They insisted that Palestine remain an Arab country, with the same right of self-determination and independence as Egypt, Transjordan, and Iraq. Britain granted those countries independence without a violent struggle since their claims to self-determination were not contested by European settlers. The Palestinians argued that Palestinian territory COULD NOT AND SHOULD NOT be used to solve the plight of the Jews in Europe, and that Jewish national aspirations should not override their own rights.

Palestinian opposition peaked in the late 1930s: the six-month general strike in 1936 was followed the next year by a widespread rural revolt. This rebellion welled up from the bottom of Palestinian society—unemployed urban workers, displaced peasants crowded into towns, and debt-ridden villagers. It was supported by most merchants and professionals in the towns, who feared competition from the yishuv. Members of the elite families acted as spokesmen before the British administration through the ARAB HIGHER COMMITTEE, which was formed during the 1936 strike. However, the British banned the committee in October 1937 and arrested its members, on the eve of the revolt.

Only one of the Palestinian political parties was willing to limit its aims and accept the principle of territorial partition: The NATIONAL DEFENSE PARTY, led by RAGHIB AL-NASHASHIBI (mayor of JERUSALEM from 1920 to 1934), was willing to accept partition in 1937 so long as the Palestinians obtained sufficient land and could merge with Transjordan to form a larger political entity. However, the British PEEL COMMISSION's plan, announced in July 1937, would have forced the Palestinians to leave the olive- and grain- growing areas of Galilee, the orange groves on the Mediterranean coast, and the urban port cities of HAIFA and ACRE. That was too great a loss for even the National Defense Party to accept, and so it joined in the general denunciations of partition.

During the PALESTINE MANDATE period the Palestinian community was 70 percent rural, 75 to 80 percent illiterate, and divided internally between town and countryside and between elite families and villagers. Despite broad support for the national aims, the Palestinians could not achieve the unity and strength necessary to withstand the combined pressure of the British forces and the Zionist movement. In fact, the political structure was decapitated in the late 1930s when the British banned the Arab Higher Committee and arrested hundreds of local politicians. When efforts were made in the 1940s to rebuild the political structure, the impetus came largely from outside, from Arab rulers who were disturbed by the deteriorating conditions in Palestine and feared their repercussions on their own newly acquired independence.

The Arab rulers gave priority to their own national considerations and provided limited diplomatic and military support to the Palestinians. The Palestinian Arabs continued to demand a state that would reflect the Arab majority's weight—diminished to 68 percent by 1947. They rejected the UNITED NATIONS (U.N.) partition plan of November 1947, which granted the Jews statehood in 55 percent of Palestine, an area that included as many Arab residents as Jews. However, the Palestinian Arabs lacked the political strength and military force to back up their claim. Once Britain withdrew its forces in 1948 and the Jews proclaimed the state of Israel, the Arab rulers used their armed forces to protect those zones that the partition plans had ALLOCATED to the Arab state. By the time armistice agreements were signed in 1949, the Arab areas had shrunk to only 23 percent of Palestine. The Egyptian army held the GAZA STRIP, and Transjordanian forces dominated the hills of central Palestine. At least 726,000 of the 1.3 million Palestinian Arabs fled from the area held by Israel. Emir Abdullah subsequently annexed the zone that his army occupied, renaming it the WEST BANK.
The Zionist Movement

The dispossession and expulsion of a majority of Palestinians were the result of Zionist policies planned over a thirty-year period. Fundamentally, Zionism focused on two needs:

1.

to attain a Jewish majority in Palestine;

2.

to acquire statehood irrespective of the wishes of the indigenous population. Non-recognition of the political and national rights of the Palestinian people was a KEY Zionist policy.

Chaim Weizmann, president of the World Zionist Organization, placed maximalist demands before the Paris Peace Conference in February 1919. He stated that he expected 70,000 to 80,000 Jewish immigrants to arrive each year in Palestine. When they became the majority, they would form an independent government and Palestine and would become: "as Jewish as England is English". Weizmann proposed that the boundaries should be the Mediterranean Sea on the west; Sidon, the Litani River, and Mount Hermon on the north; all of Transjordan west of the Hijaz railway on the east; and a line across Sinai from Aqaba to al-Arish on the south. He argued that: "the boundaries above outlined are what we consider essential for the economic foundation of the country. Palestine must have its natural outlet to the sea and control of its rivers and their headwaters. The boundaries are sketched with the general economic needs and historic traditions of the country in mind." Weizmann offered the Arab countries a free zone in Haifa and a joint port at Aqaba.

Weizmann's policy was basically in accord with that of the leaders of the yishuv, who held a conference in December 1918 in which they formulated their own demands for the peace conference. The yishuv plan stressed that they must control appointments to the administrative services and that the British must actively assist their program to transform Palestine into a democratic Jewish state in which the Arabs would have minority rights. Although the peace conference did not explicitly allocate such extensive territories to the Jewish national home and did not support the goal of transforming all of Palestine into a Jewish state, it opened the door to such a possibility. More important, Weizmann's presentation stated clearly and forcefully the long-term aims of the movement. These aims were based on certain fundamental tenets of Zionism:

1.

The movement was seen not only as inherently righteous, but also as meeting an overwhelming need among European Jews.

2.

European culture was superior to indigenous Arab culture; the Zionists could help civilize the East.

3.

External support was needed from a major power; relations with the Arab world were a secondary matter.

4.

Arab nationalism was a legitimate political movement, but Palestinian nationalism was either illegitimate or nonexistent.

5.

Finally, if the Palestinians would not reconcile themselves to Zionism, force majeure, not compromise, was the only feasible response.

First

Adherents of Zionism believed that the Jewish people had an inherent and inalienable right to Palestine. Religious Zionists stated this in biblical terms, referring to the divine promise of the land to the tribes of Israel. Secular Zionists relied more on the argument that Palestine alone could solve the problem of Jewish dispersion and virulent anti-Semitism. Weizmann stated in 1930 that the needs of 16 million Jews had to be balanced against those of 1 million Palestinian Arabs: "The Balfour Declaration and the Mandate have definitely lifted [Palestine] out of the context of the Middle East and linked it up with the world-wide Jewish problem....The rights which the Jewish people has been adjudged in Palestine do not depend on the consent, and cannot be subjected to the will, of the majority of its present inhabitants."

This perspective took its most extreme form with the Revisionist movement. Its founder, Vladimir Jabotinsky, was so self-righteous about the Zionist cause that he justified any actions taken against the Arabs in order to realize Zionist goals.
Second

Zionists generally felt that European civilization was superior to Arab culture and values. Theodor Herzl, the founder of the World Zionist Organization, wrote in the Jewish State (1886) that the Jewish community could serve as: "part of a wall of defense for Europe in Asia, an outpost of civilization against barbarism."

Weizmann also believed that he was engaged in a fight of civilization against the desert. The Zionists would bring enlightenment and economic development to the backward Arabs. Similarly, David Ben-Gurion, the leading labor Zionist, could not understand why Arabs rejected his offer to use Jewish finance, scientific knowledge, and technical expertise to modernize the Middle East. He attributed this rejection to backwardness rather than to the affront that Zionism posed to the Arabs' pride and to their aspirations for independence.
Third

Zionist leaders recognized that they needed an external patron to legitimize their presence in the international arena and to provide them legal and military protection in Palestine. Great Britain played that role in the 1920s and 1930s, and the United States became the mentor in the mid-1940s. Zionist leaders realized that they needed to make tactical accommodations to that patron—such as downplaying their public statements about their political aspirations or accepting a state on a limited territory—while continuing to work toward their long-term goals. The presence and needs of the Arabs were viewed as secondary. The Zionist leadership never considered allying with the Arab world against the British and Americans. Rather, Weizmann, in particular, felt that the yishuv should bolster the British Empire and guard its strategic interests in the region. Later, the leaders of Israel perceived the Jewish state as a strategic asset to the United States in the Middle East.
Fourth

Zionist politicians accepted the idea of an Arab nation but rejected the concept of a Palestinian nation. They considered the Arab residents of Palestine as comprising a minute fraction of the land and people of the Arab world, and as lacking any separate identity and aspirations (click here, to read our response to this myth). Weizmann and Ben-Gurion were willing to negotiate with Arab rulers in order to gain those rulers' recognition of Jewish statehood in Palestine in return for the Zionists' recognition of Arab independence elsewhere, but they would not negotiate with the Arab politicians in Palestine for a political settlement in their common homeland. As early as 1918, Weizmann wrote to a prominent British politician: "The real Arab movement is developing in Damascus and Mecca...the so-called Arab question in Palestine would therefore assume only a purely local character, and in fact is not considered a serious factor."

In line with that thinking, Weizmann met with Emir Faysal in the same year, in an attempt to win his agreement to Jewish statehood in Palestine in return for Jewish financial support for Faysal as ruler of Syria and Arabia.

Ben-Gurion, Weizmann, and other Zionist leaders met with prominent Arab officials during the 1939 LONDON CONFERENCE, which was convened by Britain to seek a compromise settlement in Palestine. The Arab diplomats from Egypt, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia criticized the exceptional position that the Balfour Declaration had granted the Jewish community and emphasized the estrangement between the Arab and Jewish residents that large scale Jewish immigration had caused. In response, Weizmann insisted that Palestine remain open to all Jews who wanted to immigrate, and Ben-Gurion suggested that all of Palestine should become a Jewish state, federated with the surrounding Arab states. The Arab participants criticized these demands for exacerbating the conflict, rather than contributing to the search for peace. The Zionists' premise that Arab statehood could be recognized while ignoring the Palestinians was thus rejected by the Arab rulers themselves.
Fifth

Finally, Zionist leaders argued that if the Palestinians could not reconcile themselves to Zionism, then force majeure, not a compromise of goals, was the only possible response. By the early 1920s, after violent Arab protests broke out in Jaffa and Jerusalem, leaders of the yishuv recognized that it might be impossible to bridge the gap between the aims of the two peoples. Building the national home would lead to an unavoidable clash, since the Arab majority would not agree to become a minority. In fact, as early as 1919 Ben-Gurion stated bluntly: "Everybody sees a difficulty in the question of relations between Arabs and Jews. But not everybody sees that there is no solution to this question. No solution! There is a gulf, and nothing can fill this gulf....I do not know what Arab will agree that Palestine should belong to the Jews....We, as a nation, want this country to be ours; the Arabs, as a nation, want this country to be theirs."

As tensions increased in the 1920s and the 1930s Zionist leaders realized that they had to coerce the Arabs to acquiesce to a diminished status. Ben-Gurion stated in 1937, during the Arab revolt:

"This is a national war declared upon us by the Arabs....This is an active resistance by the Palestinians to what they regard as a usurpation of their homeland by the Jews....But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict, which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves."

This sober conclusion did not lead Ben-Gurion to negotiate with the Palestinian Arabs: instead he became more determined to strengthen the Jewish military forces so that they could compel the Arabs to relinquish their claims.
Practical Zionism

In order to realize the aims of Zionism and build the Jewish national home, the Zionist movement undertook the following practical steps in many different realms:

1.

They built political structures that could assume state functions

2.

Created a military force.

3.

Promoted large-scale immigration.

4.

Acquired land as the inalienable property of the Jewish people

5.

Established and monopolistic concessions. The labor federation, Histadrut, tried to force Jewish enterprises to hire only Jewish labor

6.

Setting up an autonomous Hebrew-language educational system.

These measures created a self-contained national entity on Palestinian soil that was ENTIRELY SEPARATE from the Arab community.

The yishuv established an elected community council, executive body, administrative departments, and religious courts soon after the British assumed control over Palestine. When the PALESTINE MANDATE was ratified by the League of Nations in 1922, the World Zionist Organization gained the responsibility to advise and cooperate with the British administration not only on economic and social matters affecting the Jewish national home but also on issues involving the general development of the country. Although the British rejected pressure to give the World Zionist Organization an equal share in administration and control over immigration and land transfers, the yishuv did gain a privileged advisory position.

The Zionists were strongly critical of British efforts to establish a LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL in 1923, 1930, and 1936. They realized that Palestinians' demands for a legislature with a Palestinian majority ran counter to their own need to delay establishing representative bodies until the Jewish community was much larger. In 1923, the Jewish residents did participate in the elections for a Legislative Council, but they were relieved that the Palestinians' boycott compelled the British to cancel the results. In 1930 and 1936 the World Zionist Organization vigorously opposed British proposals for a legislature, fearing that, if the Palestinians received the majority status that proportional representation would require, then they would try to block Jewish immigration and the purchase of land by Zionist companies. Zionist opposition was couched indirectly in the assertion that Palestine was not ripe for self-rule, a code for not until there's a Jewish majority.

To bolster this position, the yishuv formed defense forces (Haganah) in March 1920. They were preceded by the establishment of guards (hashomer) in Jewish rural settlements in the 1900s and the formation of a Jewish Legion in World War I. However, the British disbanded the Jewish Legion and allowed only sealed armories in the settlements and mixed Jewish-British area defense committees.

Despite its illegal status, the Haganah expanded to number 10,000 trained and mobilized men, and 40,000 reservists by 1936. During the 1937-38 Arab revolt, the Haganah engaged in active defense against Arab insurgents and cooperated with the British to guard railway lines, the oil pipeline to Haifa, and border fences. This cooperation deepened during World War II, when 18,800 Jewish volunteers joined the British forces. Haganah's special Palmach units served as scouts and sappers for the British army in Lebanon in 1941-42. This wartime experience helped to transform the Haganah into a regular fighting force. When Ben-Gurion became the World Zionist Organization's secretary of defense in June 1947, he accelerated mobilization as well as arms buying in the United States and Europe. As a result, mobilization leaped to 30,000 by May 1948, when statehood was proclaimed, and then doubled to 60,000 by mid-July—twice the number serving in the Arab forces arrayed against Israel.

A principal means for building up the national home was the promotion of large-scale immigration from Europe. Estimates of the Palestinian population demonstrate the dramatic impact of immigration. The first British census (December 31, 1922) counted 757,182 residents, of whom 83,794 were Jewish. The second census (December 31, 1931) enumerated 1,035,821, including 174,006 Jews. Thus, the absolute number of Jews had doubled and the relative number had increased from 11 percent to 17 percent. Two-thirds of this growth could be attributed to net immigration, and one third to natural increase. Two-thirds of the yishuv was concentrated in Jerusalem and Jaffa and Tel Aviv, with most of the remainder in the north, including the towns of HAIFA, SAFAD, and Tiberias.

The Mandate specified that the rate of immigration should accord with the economic capacity of the country to absorb the immigrants. In 1931, the British government reinterpreted this to take into account only the Jewish sector of the economy, excluding the Palestinian sector, which was suffering from heavy unemployment. As a result, the pace of immigration accelerated in 1932 and peaked in 1935-36. In other words, the absolute number of Jewish residents doubled in the five years from 1931 to 1936 to 370,000, so that they constituted 28 percent of the total population. Not until 1939 did the British impose a severe quota on Jewish immigrants. That restriction was resisted by the yishuv with a sense of desperation, since it blocked access to a key haven for the Jews whom Hitler was persecuting and exterminating in Germany and the rest of Nazi-occupied Europe. Net immigration was limited during the war years in the 1940s, but the government estimated in 1946 that there were about 583,000 Jews of nearly 1,888,000 residents, or 31 percent of the total Seventy percent of them were urban, and they continued to be overwhelmingly concentrated in Jerusalem (100,000) the Haifa area (119,000), and the JAFFA and RAMLA districts (327,000) (click here for a map illustrating Palestine's population distribution in 1946). The remaining 43,000 were largely in Galilee, with a scattering in the Negev and almost none in the central highlands.

The World Zionist Organization purchasing agencies launched large-scale land purchases in order to found rural settlements and stake territorial claims. In 1920 the Zionists held about 650,000 dunums (one dunum equals approximately one-quarter of an acre). By 1930, the amount had expanded to 1,164,000 dunums and by 1936 to 1,400,000 dunums. The major purchasing agent (the Palestine Land Development Company) estimated that, by 1936, 89 percent had been bought from large landowners (primarily absentee owners from Beirut) and only 11 percent from peasants. By 1947, the yishuv held 1.9 million dunums. Nevertheless, this represented only 7 percent of the total land surface or 10 to 12 percent of the cultivable land (click here for a map illustrating Palestine's land ownership distribution in 1946)

According to Article 3 of the Constitution of the Jewish Agency, the land was held by the Jewish National Fund as the inalienable property of the Jewish people; ONLY Jewish labor could be employed in the settlements, Palestinians protested bitterly against this inalienability clause. The moderate National Defense Party, for example, petitioned the British in 1935 to prevent further land sales, arguing that it was a: life and death [matter] to the Arabs, in that it results in the transfer of their country to other hands and the loss of their nationality.

The placement of Jewish settlements was often based on political considerations. The Palestine Land Development Company had four criteria for land purchase:

1.

The economic suitability of the tract

2.

Its contribution to forming a solid block of Jewish territory.

3.

The prevention of isolation of settlements

4.

The impact of the purchase on the political-territorial claims of the Zionists.

The stockade and watchtower settlements constructed in 1937, for example, were designed to secure control over key parts of Galilee for the yishuv in case the British implemented the PEEL PARTITION PLAN. Similarly, eleven settlements were hastily erected in the Negev in late 1946 in an attempt to stake a political claim in that entirely Palestinian-populated territory.

In addition to making these land purchases, prominent Jewish businessmen won monopolistic concessions from the British government that gave the Zionist movement an important role in the development of Palestine's natural resources. In 1921, Pinhas Rutenberg's Palestine Electric Company acquired the right to electrify all of Palestine except Jerusalem. Moshe Novomeysky received the concession to develop the minerals in the Dead Sea in 1927. And the Palestine Land Development Company gained the concession to drain the Hula marshes, north of the Sea of Galilee, in 1934. In each case, the concession was contested by other serious non-Jewish claimants; Palestinian politicians argued that the government should retain control itself in order to develop the resources for the benefit of the entire country.

The inalienability clause in the Jewish National Fund contracts included provision that ONLY JEWS could work on Jewish agricultural settlements. The concepts of manual labor and the return to the soil were key to the Zionist enterprise. This Jewish labor policy was enforced by the General Foundation of Jewish Labor (Histadrut), founded in 1920 and headed by David Ben-Gurion. Since some Jewish builders and citrus growers hired Arabs, who worked for lower wages than Jews, the Histadrut launched a campaign in 1933 to remove those Arab workers. Histadrut organizers picketed citrus groves and evicted Arab workers from construction sites and factories in the cities. The strident propaganda by the Histradut increased the Arabs' fears for the future. George Mansur, a Palestinian labor leader, wrote angrily in 1937:

"The Histadrut's fundamental aim is 'the conquest of labor'...No matter how many Arab workers are unemployed, they have no right to take any job which a possible immigrant might occupy. No Arab has the right to work in Jewish undertakings."

Finally, the establishment of an all-Jewish, Hebrew-language educational system was an essential component of building the Jewish national home. It helped to create a cohesive national ethos and a lingua franca among the diverse immigrants. However, it also entirely separated Jewish children from Palestinian children, who attended the governmental schools. The policy widened the linguistic and cultural gap between the two peoples. In addition, there was a stark contrast in their literacy levels (in 1931):

*

93 percent of Jewish males (above age seven) were literate

*

71 percent of Christian males

*

but only 25 percent of Muslim males were literate.

Overall, Palestinian literacy increased from 19 percent in 1931 to 27 percent by 1940, but only 30 percent of Palestinian children could be accommodated in government and private schools.

The practical policies of the Zionist movement created a compact and well-rooted community by the late 1940s. The yishuv had its own political, educational, economic, and military institutions, parallel to the governmental system. Jews minimized their contact with the Arab community and outnumbered the Arabs in certain key respects. Jewish urban dwellers, for example, greatly exceeded Arab urbanites, even though Jews constituted but one-third of the population. Many more Jewish children attended school than did Arab children, and Jewish firms employed seven times as many workers as Arab firms.

Thus the relative weight and autonomy of the yishuv were much greater than sheer numbers would suggest. The transition to statehood was facilitated by the existence of the proto state institutions and a mobilized, literate public. But the separation from the Palestinian residents will exacerbated by these autarchic policies.
Policies Toward the Palestinians

The main view point within the Zionist movement was that the Arab problem would be solved by first solving the Jewish problem. In time, the Palestinians would be presented with the fait accompli of a Jewish majority. Settlements, land purchases, industries, and military forces were developed gradually and systematically so that the yishuv would become too strong to uproot. In a letter to his son, Weizmann compared the Arabs to the rocks of Judea, obstacles that had to be cleared to make the path smooth. When the Palestinians mounted violent protests in 1920, 1921, 1929, 1936-39, and the late 1940s, the yishuv sought to curb them by force, rather than seek a political accommodation with the indigenous people. Any concessions made to the Palestinians by the British government concerning immigration, land sales, or labor were strongly contested by the Zionist leaders. In fact, in 1936, Ben-Gurion stated that the Palestinians will only acquiesce in a Jewish Eretz Israel after they are in a state of total despair.

Zionists viewed their acceptance of territorial partition as a temporary measure; they did not give up the idea of the Jewish community's right to all of Palestine. Weizmann commented in 1937: "In the course of time we shall expand to the whole country...this is only an arrangement for the next 15-30 years."

Ben-Gurion stated in 1938, "After we become a strong force, as a result of the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine." A FEW EFFORTS were made to reduce Arab opposition. For example in the 1920s, Zionist organizations provided financial support to Palestinian political parties, newspapers, and individuals. This was most evident in the establishment and support of the National Muslim Societies (1921-23) and Agricultural Parties (1924-26). These parties were expected to be neutral or positive toward the Zionist movement, in return for which they would receive financial subventions and their members would be helped to obtain jobs and loans. This policy was backed by Weizmann, who commented that: "extremists and moderates alike were susceptible to the influence of money and honors."

However, Leonard Stein, a member of the London office of the World Zionist Organization, denounced this practice. He argued that Zionists must seek a permanent modus vivendi with the Palestinians by hiring them in Jewish firms and admitting them to Jewish universities. He maintained that political parties in which Arab moderates are merely Arab gramophones playing Zionist records would collapse as soon as the Zionist financial support ended. In any event, the World Zionist Organization terminated the policy by 1927, as it was in the midst of a financial crisis and as most of the leaders felt that the policy was ineffective.

Some Zionist leaders argued that the Arab community had to be involved in the practical efforts of the Zionist movement. Chaim Kalvarisky, who initiated the policy of buying support, articulated in 1923 the gap between that ideal and the reality: "Some people say...that only by common work in the field of commerce, industry and agriculture mutual understanding between Jews and Arabs will ultimately be attained....This is, however, merely a theory. In practice we have not done and we are doing nothing for any work in common.

*

How many Arab officials have we installed in our banks? Not even one.

*

How many Arabs have we brought into our schools? Not even one.

*

What commercial houses have we established in company with Arabs? Not even one."

Two years later, Kalvarisky lamented: "We all admit the importance of drawing closer to the Arabs, but in fact we are growing more distant like a drawn bow. We have no contact: two separate worlds, each living its own life and fighting the other."

Some members of the yishuv emphasized the need for political relations with the Palestinian Arabs, to achieve either a peacefully negotiated territorial partition (as Nahum Goldmann sought) or a binational state (as Brit Shalom and Hashomer Ha-tzair proposed). But few went as far as Dr. Judah L. Magnes, chancellor of The Hebrew University, who argued that Zionism meant merely the creation of a Jewish cultural center in Palestine rather than an independent state. In any case, the binationalists had little impact politically and were strongly opposed by the leadership of the Zionist movement.

Zionist leaders felt they did not harm the Palestinians by blocking them from working in Jewish settlements and industries or even by undermining their majority status. The Palestinians were considered a small part of the large Arab nation; their economic and political needs could be met in that wider context, Zionists felt, rather than in Palestine. They could move elsewhere if they sought land and could merge with Transjordan if they sought political independence.

This thinking led logically to the concept of population TRANSFER. In 1930 Weizmann suggested that the problems of insufficient land resources within Palestine and of the dispossession of peasants could be solved by moving them to Transjordan and Iraq. He urged the Jewish Agency to provide a loan of £1 million to help move Palestinian farmers to Transjordan. The issue was discussed at length in the Jewish Agency debates of 1936-37 on partition. At first, the majority proposed a voluntary transfer of Palestinians from the Jewish state, but later they realized that the Palestinians would never leave voluntarily. Therefore, key leaders such as Ben-Gurion insisted that compulsory transfer was essential. The Jewish Agency then voted that the British government should pay for the removal of the Palestinian Arabs from the territory allotted to the Jewish state.

The fighting from 1947 to 1949 resulted in a far larger transfer than had been envisioned in 1937. It solved the Arab problem by removing most of the Arabs and was the ultimate expression of the policy of force majeure.
Conclusion

The land and people of Palestine were transformed during the thirty years of British rule. The systematic colonization undertaken by the Zionist movement enabled the Jewish community to establish separate and virtually autonomous political, economic, social, cultural, and military institutions. A state within a state was in place by the time the movement launched its drive for independence. The legal underpinnings for the autonomous Jewish community were provided by the British Mandate. The establishment of a Jewish state was first proposed by the British Royal Commission in July 1937 and then endorsed by the UNITED NATIONS in November 1947.

That drive for statehood IGNORED the presence of a Palestinian majority with its own national aspirations. The right to create a Jewish state—and the overwhelming need for such a state—were perceived as overriding Palestinian counterclaims. Few members of the yishuv supported the idea of binationalism. Rather, territorial partition was seen by most Zionist leaders as the way to gain statehood while according certain national rights to the Palestinians. TRANSFER of Palestinians to neighboring Arab states was also envisaged as a means to ensure the formation of a homogeneous Jewish territory. The implementation of those approaches led to the formation of independent Israel, at the cost of dismembering the Palestinian community and fostering long-term hostility with the Arab world.

A person like you is in no position to urge me to grown a brain. Last month I told you about the improvements introduced by the Israeli govts in the Beduoin sector over the past 50 years and conceded that a lot still needs to be done for them. You whined in response that you "didn't see those things" when you were in Israel a long time ago. Another Jew then pointed out to you that I was referring to the present and you were making excuses to avoid recognizing the truth by deflecting to the past.

M: "I will answer this one not because I think that brain-wash racists can actually learn how to relate to reality, but because I think its hilarious to see all the Zionists that coming to Indybay panicked because people here actually fight oppression, let just say that it’s my little Intifada. "

Let's just say the daily trophy for delusional IMC poster goes to you. You're not wreaking any damage here on anyone or anything. For my part I'm not here due to being panicked but because I enjoy refuting lies, half truths, distortions, omissions, fallacies and unfounded allegations. You flatter yourself too much.

------

- Those 13 Arabs in Oct 2000 were putting policemen's lives in danger while rioting and the police didn't have adequate riot gear to disperse them without using lethal force. Understand?

M: "Ye, I mean so what if Arab in that area complained menthes before that the police was harassing them, or that one of the judges quit the community that was “investigating” the incidents. I mean the police said it, I believe it, and that settled it. Like the rest of your “history” you rely only on what the Israeli government determines to be true. "

1. Not only are your strawmen is for naught, but we were discussing the Oct 2000 riots and not previous events. Sorry you can't handle the facts.
2. I don't believe anything merely because the police or Israeli govt "said it". Too bad for you.

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- Secondly, military tribunals are known to have commuted some sentences, including death. I've heard such stories.”

M: "Really? Why don’t provide with some actual evident?"

The vast majority of prosecuted Palestinians have been tried in military courts. I know you'll find some excuse to pretend I never presented any evidence, but here goes:

"The Israeli penal code includes the death penalty as a punishment for severe crimes, such as terrorism, war crimes, treason, mass murder, and genocide. In the history of Israel, only one death sentence has been carried out: that of Adolph Eichman, a Nazi war criminal convicted of genocide. Other death sentences have been issued, but were later overturned on appeal. "

This is from a *Palestinian source*. http://www.phrmg.org/monitor1997/apr97-5.htm

---------

- The jailing, namely administrative detention, happens to extremist rightwing Jews too. So this draconian regulation seems to be applied fairly. And don't tell me I don't know crap.”

M: Ha……ye, you really don’t knew crap. the fact that your racist country jail a handful of extremist does not justify the thousands of arrest"

It's not a matter of how many folks from each side are jailed. Israel doesn't decide that only an X number of Jews will get locked up for months without due process to pay lip service to fairness. Like it or not, there are far more dangerous people to Israel's security among the Palestinians and their rabid Israeli Arab supporters than among the Jews.

M: "... and KILLING of people not only because Israel have decided that they are terrorist but also as a pressure on some distance relative that they have."

1. This is irrelevant to the issue of administrative detention.
2. Israel doesn't kill Palestinians at whim. You're talking utter bull now because you make up your own definitions to suit your hatist racist agenda as you go. Israel only targets people who had been proven to practice terror.

-------

- Anyhow, religion and nationalism go hand in hand in Judaism. Most religions don't have that, but Judaism is an odd example out there. No one is going to change this so you might as well come to terms with it somehow.

M: "Really? Why do Judaism and nationalism go hand in hand together? That’s news to me, I always thought that during the long years of the Galot, Jews believed that the only when the Messiah would come they will return to Israel, not only that, Zionism was oppose from the first day to religions Jews, it was secular."
"The religious fascism that you are talking about have only develop with rabbi Cock, and was applied to Israel in order to justify the taking of the Palestinian land, and to deny Palestinian the right to return to their homes"

Evidently you're either a member of Neturai Karta (or their ultra-Orthodox likes) or have gotten all your info on this topic from them. Either way, many in the ultra-Orthodox camp disagree with their extreme ways. Worse, You're info is wrong to a large extent. Here's why:
1. Only the rabbinite Jews (Jews recognizing rabbinic authority and the rabbinic literature - the Mishna, Talmud(s), Tosefta, Shulhan Aruch) believed by and large that they may return to Israel once the Messiah arrives. Many exceptions occurred, including immigration to Israel by 300 rabbis from France in the 13th century, rabbi Moses Nahmanides, the Kabbalists'' immigration to Safed in the 16 or 17th century, the Jews who settled in Hebron in the 19th century and even before, the immigrations to Tiberius over the centuries (rabbi Moses Maimonides is buried there), etc.
The Karaite Jews (who reject rabbinic authority and their literature as holy and binding and recognize only the Jewish Bible as holy and an authority) began immigrating to Israel as early as the 10th century and founded a pseudo-Zionist movement named Mourners of Zion that urged Jews from everywhere to settle in Israel, especially Jerusalem so as to bring about national revival.
As for Zionism being opposed by religious Jews - everyone agrees that Zionism as a modern national movement was predominantly secular. Yet a few important exceptions existed, such as the Mizrahi movement (precursor of the NRP in Israel) and the parties founded by rabbis such as Kalisher and Mohaliver.
I don't accept the ignorant "religious fascism" label. Most Zionist religious streams and currents have always placed a higher emphasis on human life and religious affairs than on blind allegiance to the state and belief in the state's leaders.
Moreover, before mid 1948 most of the land's territory was "owned" by the Ottoman and British occupiers. The local Arabs only had title deeds to about 3.3.% of the whole land while the Jews had about double that by mid 1948. As far as international law the 90%+ was up for grabs once the British terminated their Mandate and certainly after the Jordanian and Egyptian occupiers were driven out in 1967. For you to argue that religious Zionism was only founded to grab legally owned Palestinian land and deny the original 1948 refugees (numbering 700,000 at most) the right to return is quite ludicrous.
But you really need to get up to speed with the facts. First off, 170,000 Arabs have been repatriated since 1949 and returned, whether they had infiltrated the land as squatters just a few years prior to 1948 or not; You fanatic pro-Palestinian activists insist for some odd reason that of every ethnic group that suffered a refugee problem, only the 1949 refugees are entitled to be awarded a hereditary refugee status to pass down to their offspring for an unlimited # of generations regardless of what international law says in the matter (it states that once a refugee settled elsewhere and have some livelihood outside of prisons or concentration or internment camps they quit being refugees and their offspring certainly aren't) - this shows you're racist and disrespect international law when it's not on your side; the latest poll taken among the original 1948 refugees found only about 12% of them insist on returning exactly were they were in Israel proper.
Btw, I've yet to hear from you any similar concern for the 900,000 Jewish refugees from Arab lands and demand they receive justice. You care only about other peoples' unfortunate. You must feel awefully proud.

--------

- Do you acknowledge that many of those partners stayed in Israel illegally?

M: "Ha, that’s the whole point. In any normal state if one is married to a citizen, defiantly if they have kids together, he can become a citizen. He is not expelled from the country because of his religion, race, or color of skin. "

Which "normal states"? Most states think that's simply baloney. I doubt even Canada tolerates agrees to do this, and it's not a matter of skin color, race or religion.

--------

(About divorce in Israel between Jewish couples)
- This is only true for husbands that disappear and refuse to give these women a Get for devorce. That's the way it's done in Rabbinite Judaism. But in non-Rabbinite Judaism this doesn't happen at all.


M: "That’s like your other theories is not true. When a couple gets married in Israel they can register in a religious court, if they do, when they divorce the husband need to give his premition to the divorce. "

You didn't follow me, so you're merely repeating yourself and didn't show where I'm lying. You can't, because I stuck to the truth. Some husbands refuse to grant the divorce Get and go to prison for it or elope. But you mad made an unjustified generalization. So much for your theory.

-----------

- The real question regarding ostensibly moderate Palestinians is why we don't see Palestinian versions of Peace Now, Women in Black, Gush Shalom, yadda yadda.

M: "There is version of Palestinian peace movement that as one sided thinking racist you would not be aware of. The point is still true, you won’t see Palestinian supporting the occupation. "

If there is a Palestinian version of a peace movement with a profile anywhere as high as the Israeli movements I named, why couldn't you name it for me? You're kneejerk (and ill founded) resort to the "racist" label is no reliable substitute for rational debate.

--------

- Now you are the one lying here, M. Ever heard of Noam Federman who was locked up in administrative detention and prosecuted a zillion times? Or Itamar ben Gvir, or Moshe Levinger, or Daniella Weis, or Yehuda Etzion, etc? Obviously not. You're complaining without having your facts in order. You seem to enjoy complaining for the heck of it.


M: "Here is what I picket up just by goggling “settler Palestinian” you don’t need to be a brilliant to search for that. But as usual with Zionists they don’t really read more then the bible and some propaganda from the Israeli government. "

1. I'm unimpressed with you Bible and propaganda generalization strawman.
2. You can't refute the many arrests and prosecutions of those extremist Jews and others, including the entire Jewish Underground from the mid 1980's, the more recent Underground from the 1990's, Shalhevet Pas' father, Matityahu Shvo and more. You're deflecting attention from my evidence that proved your claim wrong.

----------

M: "the handful of racist pigs that your government use as shock troops against the Palestinian are jailed only when they get out of hand, and its nothing compare to the mass arrest of Palestinian. "

This argument is nonsense from two opposing directions: (a) Avishai Raviv who was a real govt. agent pig was given a lenient punishment considering what he had done - including bungling things up completely for the govt, not least by failing to prevent Rabin's murder. (b) virtuall all Jewish extremist aren't govt. agents. In fact I here every such person being so accused threatening to sue the accusers for slander.
Your juxtaposition with the mass arrest of Palestinians is a diversionary misplaced emphasis on quantity with no regard to the danger these detainees pose to Israel, though it's understandable you care nothing about the security of Israel's people, Jew and non-Jew alike. As long as you can assist the Palestinians with every last aspiration, to hell with any human rights the Israelis have according to international law.

----------

-If you want [peace] you've got to oppose Hamas with every fiber of your being. To not oppose Hamas is a prescription for incessant warfare against Israel that will retaliate in a non-ending so-called cycle of violence.

M: "let me ask you a question, how was the Hamas created from the first place? Who allowed to this organization to flourish in it first days? "

We're now in 2006. Hamas has spit in Israel's face in return for its initial assistance. The past is now irrelevant. You fetched an excuse to avoid conceding the point. It's not working.

------------

Your "torture tactics rape" accusation is parroting a lie. It doesn't happen. Did you ever read that the Israeli Supreme Court outlawed all forms in torture except sleep deprivation in 1999? Obviously not.


M: "There is a book called “Global Lockdown” http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0415950570/103-5132761-4169443?v=glance&n=283155
that documents the use of rape against Palestinian women by the Israeli secret service. It was not approved by your ministry of propaganda, and it involved critical thinking, so I’m sure that you never read it." "And yes I knew that your country passes “laws” about how to torture people. These laws from the testimony of Palestinian are always ignored. "

I can get my hands on it by ordering it from any retailer I want if it's unavailable here, but I won't, because it's a piece of anti-Israel propaganda trumpeting lies. I've seen you guys doctor evidence in con jobs like "Jenin, Jenin" and I sure won't spend money on such trash. BTW I'm sure you still believe the inflated numbers and massacre lie re Jenin. Your charge is hogwash.
It's hard to find even one instance where you guys say the whole truth and nothing but. That's why the testimony of Palestinians has little value for thorough investigators, though most of the world falls for it. But that's hardly surprising anymore as most people in our society are uncritically thinking, lazy and full of mush inside their heads.

-------

M: "I ignore the usual mumbling about “democracy” “security” and how its o.k. to build settlements on occupied territory."

Whatever's a Palestinian's property as proven by title deeds shouldn't be usurped. All the rest is disputed territory. To proclaim a priori that Jews aren't entitled to settle on disputed lands and only Palestinians deserve to live there is the very essence of racism. That's one of the main reason you're racist. But you don't seem to have a conscience. Otherwise you would have begun to do some serious thinking about your racist attitudes. Did the Jordanian occupation of the so-called West Bank ever bother you? Were you ever indignant that Jordan still laid claims to this territory until 1988? I think not. Why aren't you troubled about the theft of legally owned Jewish land and property that occurred in Hebron (1929, 1936), Gush Etzion, Jenin and E. Jerusalem (1948) ad Kfar Darom (1948)? It's because you don't care jack about Jewish human rights. The Palestinians and other Arabs get a blank check to trample any Jewish right they want.

-------

M: "Again there is no difference debating people like you and debating people who believe that America stand for “democracy” that the war for oil is for the “Iraqi people” and that abducting people and torturing people is o.k. since America is fighting “terrorism”. What’s the difference between you and people who accept everything that the American government tall them? "

Irrelevant arguments, unjustified linkage to other people and deflective.

M: "Like most Zionists, you pick and choose from history. "

1. Which Zionists have you supposedly found to not "pick and choose from history"?
2. more irrelevant wrapping with other people.

M: "There is no difference between you and people who deny the holocaust. Just like holocaust deniers, you never believe the testimony of survivors and attribute everything to a conspiracy to exterminate the Jewish (Arian?) “nation”. "

This nauseating racist balderdash doesn't even merit a response except to point out you've lost virtually the whole debate.

Again, ill write a respond just because it’s so funny to see how Zionists are panicked when people actually expose iSSrael. I going to post my previous post since as always with Zionists, you never get an answer.

“Another Jew then pointed out to you that I was referring to the present and you were making excuses to avoid recognizing the truth by deflecting to the past.”
What are you talking about? What post? Btw, I was recently in Israel.

“1. Not only are your strawmen is for naught, but we were discussing the Oct 2000 riots and not previous events. Sorry you can't handle the facts.
2. I don't believe anything merely because the police or Israeli govt "said it". Too bad for you.”

I was discussing the October 2000 “riot” too. And if you except the police version to the incident than you do believe everything that the corrupt Israeli government says. In other words "Ye, I mean so what if Arab in that area complained menthes before that the police was harassing them, or that one of the judges quit the community that was “investigating” the incidents. I mean the police said it, I believe it, and that settled it. Like the rest of your “history” you rely only on what the Israeli government determines to be true. "

“The vast majority of prosecuted Palestinians have been tried in military courts. I know you'll find some excuse to pretend I never presented any evidence, but here goes:”

My comment was in regard to whether Palestinians ever get a fair trial or not. If there is no death penalty, than why did you say that “military tribunals are known to have commuted some sentences”? I think your link is very true especially this part:

“This legal policy is of course balanced by the practice of extra-judicial executions, which have been used by the Israeli army and the General Security Services (GSS) since the establishment of the state of Israel. The Israeli undercover units operating in the Occupied Territories since the Intifada have been accused repeatedly of following a policy of summary executions. This accusation has been documented by Israeli, Palestinian, and international human rights groups. The Israeli government was justly condemned as responsible for the deaths caused by these units.”

And I knew that since you brought this link as evidence you’ll accept all of it.

“It's not a matter of how many folks from each side are jailed. Israel doesn't decide that only an X number of Jews will get locked up for months without due process to pay lip service to fairness. Like it or not, there are far more dangerous people to Israel's security among the Palestinians and their rabid Israeli Arab supporters than among the Jews.”

No, it’s not a matter of how many people are jailed, it’s a question of who Israel jail. Here my answer about your comment that settlers never harm Palestinian. Hopefully this time you’ll relate to it.
“Here is what I picket up just by goggling “settler Palestinian” you don’t need to be a brilliant to search for that. But as usual with Zionists they don’t really read more then the bible and some propaganda from the Israeli government.

http://english.people.com.cn/english/200108/30/eng20010830_78803.html

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/6/29/121319.shtml

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=9277

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,764903,00.html

Hopefully new you can answer me why do Israel not persecuting fascists while arresting and killing Palestinian.

“Israel only targets people who had been proven to practice terror.”

http://www.phrmg.org/monitor1997/apr97-5.htm

Your rhetoric about religious movement that supported the immigration is as you say exception. Zionism was oppose to religious from the first day and was not supported by most religious Jews.

“Most Zionist religious streams and currents have always placed a higher emphasis on human life and religious affairs than on blind allegiance to the state and belief in the state's leaders.”
““Here is what I picket up just by goggling “settler Palestinian” you don’t need to be a brilliant to search for that. But as usual with Zionists they don’t really read more then the bible and some propaganda from the Israeli government.

http://english.people.com.cn/english/200108/30/eng20010830_78803.html

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/6/29/121319.shtml

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=9277

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,764903,00.html


“For you to argue that religious Zionism was only founded to grab legally owned Palestinian land and deny the original 1948 refugees”

Why did you ignore the information in the comment above you?

“Which "normal states"? Most states think that's simply baloney”

In America by marring someone you begin a process of becoming a citizen, or “Ha, that’s the whole point. In any normal state if one is married to a citizen, defiantly if they have kids together, he can become a citizen. He is not expelled from the country because of his religion, race, or color of skin. "
http://www.countercurrents.org/pa-dadoo121103.htm

http://english.aad-online.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=580

“You can't, because I stuck to the truth. Some husbands refuse to grant the divorce Get and go to prison for it or elope.”
There are thousands of women waiting for the promotion of their husband to get married.

http://www.hemdat.org/Womrpt31.PDF



You can't refute the many arrests and prosecutions of those extremist Jews and others, including the entire Jewish Underground from the mid 1980's, the more recent Underground from the 1990's, Shalhevet Pas' father, Matityahu Shvo and more. You're deflecting attention from my evidence that proved your claim wrong.

““Here is what I picket up just by goggling “settler Palestinian” you don’t need to be a brilliant to search for that. But as usual with Zionists they don’t really read more then the bible and some propaganda from the Israeli government.

http://english.people.com.cn/english/200108/30/eng20010830_78803.html

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/6/29/121319.shtml

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=9277

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,764903,00.html

“Avishai Raviv who was a real govt. agent pig was given a lenient punishment considering what he had done - including bungling things up completely for the govt, not least by failing to prevent Rabin's murder.”
Again you doing my job, Raviv was not only part of “failing to prevent Rabin's murder” (which is still in question) but also help organize settlers and youth in “self defance group”. In America if a FBI agent organizes the KKK (and it happened) it means that the FBI is organizing the KKK.

“In fact I here every such person being so accused threatening to sue the accusers for slander.”
What are you talking about?

“We're now in 2006. Hamas has spit in Israel's face in return for its initial assistance.”
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/ZER403A.html
“Yassin did everything in his power to undermine the Oslo accords. Even prior to Prime Minister Rabin’s death, he had the support of the Israeli government. The latter was very reluctant to implement the peace agreement.”

“but I won't, because it's a piece of anti-Israel propaganda trumpeting lies.” “That's why the testimony of Palestinians has little value for thorough investigators, though most of the world falls for it.”
M: "There is no difference between you and people who deny the holocaust. Just like holocaust deniers, you never believe the testimony of survivors and attribute everything to a conspiracy to exterminate the Jewish (Arian?) “nation”. "

“To proclaim a priori that Jews aren't entitled to settle on disputed lands and only Palestinians deserve to live there is the very essence of racism.”
Ye but to say that Jews are allowed to build on disputed land in contradiction to what the Israeli government agreed on in Oslo makes much more sense.

“Did the Jordanian occupation of the so-called West Bank ever bother you? Were you ever indignant that Jordan still laid claims to this territory until 1988? I think not. Why aren't you troubled about the theft of legally owned Jewish land and property that occurred in Hebron (1929, 1936), Gush Etzion, Jenin and E. Jerusalem (1948) ad Kfar Darom (1948)?”

Read the posting above you

“Irrelevant arguments, unjustified linkage to other people and deflective.”

If your corrupt and racist government cant survive with the American blood dripping money, that someone who has some brain (unlike you) would ask himself why do America gives so much money to Israel. In other words “there is no difference debating people like you and debating people who believe that America stand for “democracy” that the war for oil is for the “Iraqi people” and that abducting people and torturing people is o.k. since America is fighting “terrorism”. What’s the difference between you and people who accept everything that the American government tall them? “

Your more stupid than I thought, if I was a racist-Zionist I was ashamed of you. First you give me a link and evident that prove my point, then you ignore the posting of people that give answers to the ridicules question that you bring, and then you proclaim that any information provided from Palestinian is a lie. Maybe this is what constitute being a Zionist.

Looking at the long history and tradition of the Jewish people, I would say that you not only a shame, but a self-hating Jew.

Hopefully in next comment you can actually deal with my questions (I doubt it).

THE DEAD - GAZA
I never realised just how real the dead were until I had to
check their names to make sure that I had not missed any.
What struck me as I looked at the numbered list of dead put
out by al-Mezan, the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights
http://www.mezan.org, were the names of young children and youths
interspersed with the adults. Even now, I cannot believe the violent,
deliberate deaths that ended their lives.
I have, therefore, listed the dead according to their ages,
in the hope of alerting the reader to the senseless waste
of human lives not yet lived - killing that is going on right
now in Gaza as Israel’s mighty army descends on the vulnerable and
defenceless Palestinian people.
Please remember
that
the wounded
far outnumber
the
dead and many will die or suffer from those wounds in the
days and weeks and months ahead. They will not become
statistics reported and referred to, but will slip quietly away
unknown and unheralded. But their deaths will never be
forgotten by those who knew and loved them and are now
left behind to grapple with the terrible inhumanity of a
people bent on destroying them and their memories.
Sonja Karkar
President,
Women for Palestine
http://www.womenforpalestine.com
Page 2
List of Palestinians killed by Israeli military
during the incursion into northern Gaza
AL-MEZAN CENTRE FOR HUMAN RIGHTS
September 28 - October 14, 2004
TOTAL DEATHS -
123
HUMAN BEINGS
4 YEARS OLD
Lu'ay Ayman An Najjar; 4 years, Khan Younis
9 YEARS OLD
Samah Samir Nassar; 9 years old, Beit Hanoun
10 YEARS OLD
Mahmud Abu Tyour; 10 years, Khan Younis
Ghadeer Jaber Mkheemar; 10 years, Khan Younis
13 YEARS OLD
Nidal Mohsen Al Madhoun; 13 years, Jabaliya camp
Muhammad Diyab An Najjar; 13 years, Jabaliya camp
Saber Ibrahim Asaliya; 13 years, Jabaliya camp
Iman Darweesh Al Hams 13 years, Rafah
Jum’a Al Sharatha; 13 years, Jabaliya camp
Hasan Jum’a Al Sharatha; 13 years, Jabaliya camp
14 YEARS OLD
Said Muhammad Abi Al Aish; 14 years, Jabaliya camp
Tamir Abdul Aziz Abu Shakyan; 14 years, Jabaliya camp
Mutaz Abdul Malik At Taluli; 14 years, Jabaliya camp
Muhammad Khalid Raihan; 14 years, Jabaliya camp
Ziyad Ala' Shams; 14 years, Gaza City
Sultan Said Al Bishawi; 14 years, Gaza City
15 YEARS OLD
Abdullah Hussien Qahman 15 years, Beit Lahiya
Raid Ziyad Abu Zaid; 15 years, Beit Lahiya
Sulaiman Abu Foul; 15 years, Beit Lahiya
Page 3
16 YEARS OLD
Ahmad Adnan al Bura'i; 16 years, Gaza City
Nidal Said Al Bishawi; 16 years, Gaza City
Abdullah Abu Udeh; 16 years, Gaza City
Muhammad Abdul Salam Shalha; 16 years, Jabaliya camp
Muhammad Abu Saif; 16 years, Jabaliya camp
Jihad Housam Barhoum; 16 years, Rafah
17 YEARS OLD
Asma' Nader Dwidar; 17 years, Jabaliya camp
Hani Said Mushtaha ; 17 years, Gaza City
Tariq Abdullah Zaqout; 17 years, Jabaliya camp
Mahmud Al Madhoun; 17 years, Jabaliya camp
Diyaa ad-Din Al Kahlout; 17 years, Gaza City
Yihia Akram Hammad; 17 years, Beit Lahiya
Ahmad Ibrahim Madi; 17 years, Jabaliya camp
18 YEARS OLD
Wasim Mustafa Natil; 18 years, Jabaliya camp
Muhammad Al Ja'beer; 18 years, Jabaliya camp
Yasir Salih Al Khateeb; 18 years, Jabaliya camp
19 YEARS OLD
Hussam Ghunaim; 19 years
Muhammad Raafat Al Rifi; 19 years, Gaza City
Ali Khalid Al Jaru 19 years, Deir Al Balah
Muhammad Nabil Subeh; 19 years, Jabaliya camp
Yasir Al Khateeb; 19 years, Jabaliya camp
20 YEARS OLD
Yaser Muhammad Abu Ghbaiyd; 20 years, Jabaliya Camp
Muhammad Rafiq Salem; 20 years, Beit Lahiay
Abdul Mun'em Ihsan Abu Baker; 20 years, Gaza City
Musbah Hussein Al Rantisi; 20 years, Jabaliya camp
Romel Muhammad Al Barawi; 20 years, Beit Lahiya
Ramzi Shehda Hasaballa; 20 years, Jabaliya camp
Muhammad Yihia Udwan; 20 years, Beit Hanoun
Page 4
21 YEARS OLD
Mus'ab Mahmud Al Barad'i; 21 years, Gaza City
Usama Muhammad Al Bursh; 21 years, Jabaliya town
Mostafa Hammash; 21 years, Jabaliya camp
Ibrahim Mamud Abu Al Qumsan; 21 years, Jabaliya camp
Yaser Mustafah Dahalan; 21 years, Jabaliya camp
Faris Omar Al Habel; 21 years, Beit Lahiya
Ismail Ibrahim Qahman; 21 years, Beit Lahiya
Sameh Zamil Al Wheedi; 21 years, Jabaliya camp
Yousif Mamuh Abu Zaid; 21 years, Jabaliya camp
22 YEARS OLD
Mus'ab Mahmud Jum'a; 22 years,
Muhammad Mousa Al Shami; 22 years, Jabaliya camp
Rami Akram Quddas; 22 years, Jabaliya camp
Muhammad Ibrahim Al Shrafi; 22 years, Jabaliya camp
Hammudeh Hamdan Ubaid 22 years, Beit Lahiya
Imad Yihia Bader; 22 years, Khan Younis
Raid Muhammad Al Mabhouh; 22 years, Jabaliya camp
Ahmad Zaki Hamad; 22 years, Beit Hanoun
23 YEARS OLD
Fathi Ahmad Abu Sawaween; 23 years, Gaza City
Mahmud Abu Al Jidyan; 23 years, Jabaliya, Tel Az Zaatar
Fadi Farid Az Za'anin; 23 years, Beit Hanoyun
Muhammad Saber Al Baba 23 years, Beit Lahia
Iyad Abu Al Atta 23 years, Deir Al Balah
Saqer Awni Saqer; 23 years, Khan Younis
24 YEARS OLD
Tawfeeq Muhammad Ash Shrafi; 24 years, Jabaliya camp
Abdul hai An Najjar; 24 years, Jabaliya camp
Hazim Hussein Farajallah; 24 years, Jabaliya camp
Arafat Bilal Yasin; 24 years, Gaza City
Hussam Muhammad Al Rass 24 years, Gaza City
Mousa Abdul Hai Darweesh 24 years, Beit Lahiya
Khalid Abdul Aziz Abu T’imeh; 24 years, Khan Younis
Arafat Fuad Naser; 24 years, Beit Hanoun
Muhammad Karam Ma'rouf; 24 years, Beit Lahiya
Page 5
25 YEARS OLD
Ramy Abdul Rahman Abu Mhisin 25 years, Bureij camp
Abdullah Naji Darduna 25 years, Jabaliya (police officer)
Wahid Talal Abdul Rahman; 25 years, Jabaliya Camp
Muhammad Abu Hasira; 25 years, Gaza City
Muhammad Jamil Al Ustath; 25 years, Jabaliya, Al Karama
Ra'fat Rafeeq Jaballah; 25 years, Jabaliya, Tel Az Zaatar
Abdul Ra’uf Nabhan; 25 years, Jabaliya camp
Muhammad Said Al Masri; 25 years, Beit Lahiya
26 YEARS OLD
Jihad Mahmud Abu Al Jbeen; 26 years, Jabaliya camp
Ibrahim Ali Asaliya; 26 years, Jabalia, Tel Az Zaatar
Miqbel Khzeiq; 26 years, Gaza City
27 YEARS OLD
Khalil Khalil Naji; 27 years, Gaza City
Hamza Asaad Ahmad; 27 years, Beit Lahiya
Atif Jamal Al Ashqar; 27 years, Beit Lahiya
Jadallah Ahmed Abu Skheela; 27 years, Jabaliya camp
Imad Muhammad Al Mansi; 27 years, Gaza City
Muhammad Mousa Al Hissi; 27 years, Jabaliya camp
Lu’ay Jamal Hamad; 27 years, Beit Haroun
Salameh Ismail Abu Sil’a; 27 years, Jabaliya camp
28 YEARS OLD
Khaled Al Amriti; 28 years, Gaza City
Sufiyan Mousa Salim; 28 years, Jabaliya camp
29 YEARS OLD
Nidal Muhammad Matar; 29 years, Jabaliya camp
Maher Jamil Zaqout; 29 years, Jabaliya camp
Samir Muhammad Khamash; 29 years, Deir Al Balah
Khader Muhammad At Taluli; 29 years, Jabaliya camp
30 YEARS OLD
Mahdai Jamal Mushtaha; 30 years, Gaza City
Waif Salim Asalyeh 30 years, Jabaliya
Said Jamal Al Majdalawi 30 years, An Nuseirat
Tharif Yousif Al Ar'eer 30 years, Gaza City
Hasan Abdul Hai Darweesh 30 years, Beit Lahiya
Page 6
31 YEARS OLD
Iyad Zaqout; 31 years, Beit Lahiya
33 YEARS OLD
Sufyan Abu Al Jidyan; 33 years, Jabaliya, Tel Az Zaatar
35 YEARS OLD
Salih Abu Al Ghseen; 35 years, Wadi As Salqa
36 YEARS OLD
Ra'id Abu Wadi; 36 years, Jabaliya camp
Eid Muhammad Afana ; 36 years, Jabaliya, Tel Az Zaatar
Ameen Mahmud Salim; 36 years, Jabaliya camp
37 YEARS OLD
Jihad Ameen Mousa; 37 years, Jabaliya camp
38 YEARS OLD
Qiziq Hasan Az Zeety; 38 years, Jabaliya camp
39 YEARS OLD
Mahir Muhammad Zaqout; 39 years, Jabaliya camp
42 YEARS OLD
Basher Khalil Ad Dabash 42 years, Gaza City
43 YEARS OLD
Ibrahim Hasan Hamdan; 43 years, Jabaliya, Tel Az
Zaatar
45 YEARS OLD
Fathi Abdul Rahman Afana; 45 years, Jabaliya, Tel Az Zaatar
50 YEARS OLD
Hamdan Faraj Ubaid 50 years, Beit Lahiya
62 YEARS OLD
Mahmud Muhammad Al Hashash; 62 years, Rafah
65 YEARS OLD
Muhammad Yousif Al Habel; 65 years, Beit Lahiya
77 YEARS OLD
Mahmoud Umran; 77 years, Khan Younis

That photo has made its way around the internet with the photo-shopped caption- with NO Proof at all that its a photo from abu grahib, or that it has any relevance to anything at all.

I've got a tatoo of an unbroken Polynesian chain round my wrist and ankle. Could someone take a photo of me holding a flag (palestinian or Israeli, who cares?) and use it to show the polynesian conspiracy in the Middle east? Some things are just stupid- this photo is one of them. And I don't believe for a moment that that gleaming prision is in iraq...

Which would be typical in any prison, esp. a military one. Look a little harder (you might want to take off the pro-israel blinders) and you'll see it's not so gleaming...just mopped clean.

Gleaming, shining, well lit- very different from the ones we've seen in the torture shots.
Can anyone verify the origins of this photo?

simply another location, to extract that it is not the same location is wishful thinking

question into our minds. Israel have trained the Saha secret police, sold weapon to the contras (and think train them too), train the South Lebanon Army in military tactics and torture in the occupation of Lebanon, the south Lebanon army also had a prison that Israel used to send people to, to avoid them being torture in Israel, and sold weapon and trained to the apartheid government. Since American soldiers were being trained in the massacre of Jenin, I don’t see it as very weird if Israelis who are specialize in torturing Palestinian want to Iraq as well and trained American in Iraq in how to torture Iraqis.

its well known that a lot of people that were involved in the Abu-ghraib torture, have never been prosecuted. The soldiers that were indicted themselves said that they received their orders to torture from CIA agents and high ranks generals. So we might never get the full story of who was really involved in that. I would like to know how this person died.
http://dahrjamailiraq.com/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=abu_ghraib_torture_pictures_images_iraq_war&id=iraqis_tortured_abc_a

I also don’t see any way to prove that the other pictures from Abu-ghraib are real too
.
What’s interesting about it is that conservatives in America regard the abu-ghraib torture scandal as something that ether was justify, never happen, or was a playful frank. Like Zionists, when ever Israel is caught tutoring, or murdering civilians, they just choose to ignore reality.

M:"Again, ill write a respond just because it’s so funny to see how Zionists are panicked when people actually expose iSSrael. I going to post my previous post since as always with Zionists, you never get an answer. "

I don't know who you sense is panicking 'cause it's not me by any stretch. Certainly not on the account of a Jewish anti-semite that identifies Israel with the Nazis even as the Palestinians have been drawing extensively on Nazism in ideology, symbolism and ceremonial rites (examples: naming babies after Hitler, vigorously promoting Mein Kampf, saluting the Nazi way in parades etc, deriving inspiration from Nazi laws to construct charters and the PA constitution in 1993). None of this bothers you as you have no conscience.

-------

- Another Jew then pointed out to you that I was referring to the present and you were making excuses to avoid recognizing the truth by deflecting to the past.

M: "What are you talking about? What post? Btw, I was recently in Israel. "

1. Scroll up and find out. I'm not your baby sitter.
2. I've lived in Israel for decades. You stay there for a few weeks at most each visit (if you even been there ore than once or twice). That doesn't cut it.

-------

- 1. Not only are your strawmen for naught, but we were discussing the Oct 2000 riots and not previous events. Sorry you can't handle the facts.
2. I don't believe anything merely because the police or Israeli govt "said it". Too bad for you.

M: "I was discussing the October 2000 “riot” too. And if you except the police version to the incident than you do believe everything that the corrupt Israeli government says. yadda yadda" (Repeating your excuses for deflections like a broken record.)

You tried and are still attempting to sneak in what had happened prior to the Oct riots that year. I've heard the local Arabs' version, the Israeli Arab leadership's version, the Israeli police version, the Or Committee's version and reached my conclusions. I don't need any lessons from you how to think and I don't have to agree with your line of reasoning. You're the type of person who chastises anyone who even slightly disagrees with your version or position and try to harp on guilt. It's not working.
BTW there was arguably no moral, and certainly no legal, imperative to establish a national inquiry committee re police handling of these riots. The Or Committee came into being due to Ehud Barak's inability to withstand intense political pressure. He knew there was no real justification to assemble this committee.

--------

- The vast majority of prosecuted Palestinians have been tried in military courts. I know you'll find some excuse to pretend I never presented any evidence, but here goes: [evidence proving sentences meted out to Palestinians -- including the death penalty -- tried in Israeli tribunals are sometimes communted]

M: "My comment was in regard to whether Palestinians ever get a fair trial or not. If there is no death penalty, than why did you say that “military tribunals are known to have commuted some sentences”?"

I knew you'd find some imaginary escape hatch to dismiss the evidence. You're now changing your goal post after the score was made and twisting what I said.

M: "I think your link is very true especially this part:

“This legal policy is of course balanced by the practice of extra-judicial executions, which have been used by the Israeli army and the General Security Services (GSS) since the establishment of the state of Israel. The Israeli undercover units operating in the Occupied Territories since the Intifada have been accused repeatedly of following a policy of summary executions. This accusation has been documented by Israeli, Palestinian, and international human rights groups. The Israeli government was justly condemned as responsible for the deaths caused by these units.”

And I knew that since you brought this link as evidence you’ll accept all of it. "

No, I don't the lopsided presentation from the Palestinian vantage point. I find the last sentence especially problematic. If you brought a passage from an Israeli webpage as evidence to one of your claims, would you accept every other argument made on that page too? Doubtful.

-------

- It's not a matter of how many folks from each side are jailed. Israel doesn't decide that only an X number of Jews will get locked up for months without due process to pay lip service to fairness. Like it or not, there are far more dangerous people to Israel's security among the Palestinians and their rabid Israeli Arab supporters than among the Jews.

M: "No, it’s not a matter of how many people are jailed, it’s a question of who Israel jail."

You're at it again -- your trick to deflect attention from what I insist on, namely that the criterion is the extent of danger a given person poses to Israel's security, regardless of their identity. You keep trying to crown the reality that Muslims constitute the majority among those detainees and prisoners as proof that those Muslims are targeted for being Muslims.

-------

M: "Here my answer about your comment that settlers never harm Palestinian. Hopefully this time you’ll relate to it [plus more broken record verbiage]. Hopefully new you can answer me why do Israel not persecuting fascists while arresting and killing Palestinian. "

You're lying. I never claimed above that Jewish "settlers" never harm Palestinians. You're blatantly misrepresenting my words and ignoring what I've said. Therefore I refuse to run with your attempt to bog me down in a pointless exchange over a like while you pretend to be debating honestly.

---------

-Israel only targets people who had been proven to practice terror.”

M: "http://www.phrmg.org/monitor1997/apr97-5.htm "

You know, what's funny and incisively ironic in that webpage is how it rails against the death penalty and relates that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, that proclaims that states and governments may not use cruel or humiliating punishments, was adopted by the Palestinian Authority. You haven't noticed that this Palestinian org has effectively made of mockery of both your and the PA's rabid pro-Palestinian advocacy. The reason is the PA has liberally used the death penalty, not to mention the far more extensive use of other atrocious forms of punishment and officially sanctioned torture, mostly without due process. None of this seems to rub onto you. I suggest you be mindful of these facts before you brandish this webpage again to try and disprove something I say.

---------

M: "Your rhetoric about religious movement that supported the immigration is as you say exception. Zionism was oppose to religious from the first day and was not supported by most religious Jews. "

What you're saying here is correct by and large. This is refreshing as far as honesty goes relative to your discussion of other points.

- Most Zionist religious streams and currents have always placed a higher emphasis on human life and religious affairs than on blind allegiance to the state and belief in the state's leaders.

M: "Here is what I picket up just by goggling “settler Palestinian” blah blah blah

"http://english.people.com.cn/english/200108/30/eng20010830_78803.html "

1. The piece doesn't even relate whether the attackers were religious. Secular Jews always resided in the disputed territories. The shooters could have been secular for all we know.
2. You've taken what I said out of context, a typical ploy of the zealous anti-Israel crowd. I said that sentence in the context of your invariably ignorant label "religious fascism" that you had applied to religious Zionism.

M: "http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/6/29/121319.shtm"
This one actually supports my claim -- these Jews were acting *against* the state's authorities. There goes your Fascism allegation. You toss around "fascist" this and "fascist" that without even knowing the word's meaning beforehand. This is quite amusing to witness.

M: "http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=9277 "

All this piece does is it presents conflicting accounts of the stabbing incident. Palestinians are already known to have blamed this sort of incidents on Israelis when the perps were Palestinian in intra-Palestinian feuds. Anyway, it's irrelevant to your "religious fascism" refrain.

M: "htttp://http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,764903,00.html "

Again, nothing of even a miniscule degree that touches the subject of Zionist religious "fascism".

You're wasting both of our time because you haven't had a green idea about fascism's meaning. One of the links even debunks your point effectively. OK... start making excuses for your failure to substantiate your allegation. I'm bracing myself.

- For you to argue that religious Zionism was only founded to grab legally owned Palestinian land and deny the original 1948 refugees [....]

M: "Why did you ignore the information in the comment above you? "

Dumpling, it wasn't ignored. Au contraire, I proceeded to show it is mostly unfounded.

--------

- Which "normal states" [allow an illegally staying alien married to a citizen to become a citizen, definitely if they have kids together]? Most states think that's simply baloney. I doubt even Canada agrees to do this, and it's not a matter of skin color, race or religion.


M: "In America by marring someone you begin a process of becoming a citizen, "

That doesn't necessarily mean the Govt. will end up accepting said person as a citizen. They have the right to refuse naturalization to persons for several reasons.

M: "http://www.countercurrents.org/pa-dadoo121103.htm

Says nothing about the naturalization process in the US and therefore makes no comparison to Israel's. Another waste of time.

M: "http://english.aad-online.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=580 ""

Sheesh... this piece makes a mockery of your stance by highlighting the stricter naturalization processes in humane civilized European democracies and is very in line with my position.
As an aside, this snippet of tripe caught my eye: "The Samarians are a Palestinian-Jewish sect [Boo-hoo -- they've been a seperate "almost Jewish" religion for more than 2 millennia now] numbering no more than 600 individuals [the ed. is off by about 70 people -- actually this year they number like 670] living in the city of Nablus and in the Holon area [sic] near Tel Aviv ed. "

But it's still has no bearing on the naturalization process in the US and is still another waste of time.

----------

(About divorce in Israel between Jewish couples
- You can't, because I stuck to the truth. Some husbands refuse to grant the divorce Get and go to prison for it or elope.

M: "There are thousands of women waiting for the promotion of their husband to get married.

http://www.hemdat.org/Womrpt31.PDF "

Your point being? It's almost as if you want to paint me as someone who supports these Get refusing men and/or the rabbinical court system that perpetuates the problem. News for you: if biblical Judaism was dominant in marriage and divorce manners among Jews in Israel, this problem wouldn't have existed. You have some ignorant overgeneralizing notion that lumps all pro-Israel or Zionist people as supporters of the worst in Israel. Meanwhile I don't see you criticize anything benighted within Palestinian society or even the honor killings and endemic rape among Israeli Arabs.

---------

- You can't refute the many arrests and prosecutions of those extremist Jews and others, including the entire Jewish Underground from the mid 1980's, the more recent Underground from the 1990's, Shalhevet Pas' father, Matityahu Shvo and more. You're deflecting attention from my evidence that proved your claim wrong.

M: Here is what I picket up just by goggling “settler Palestinian” you don’t need to be a brilliant to search for that. [Repetative waste of time and disproving noting.]

-Avishai Raviv who was a real govt. agent pig was given a lenient punishment considering what he had done - including bungling things up completely for the govt, not least by failing to prevent Rabin's murder.

M: Again you doing my job, Raviv was not only part of “failing to prevent Rabin's murder” (which is still in question) but also help organize settlers and youth in “self defance group”. In America if a FBI agent organizes the KKK (and it happened) it means that the FBI is organizing the KKK. "

Apparently one crucial difference is lost on you here. Most if not all of these activities he engaged in were a series of provocations designed to give religious Zionist Jews in the disputed territories ill repute for Yithak Rabin's benefit. Rabin tried and succeeded in a considerable degree to have the "settlers" hated even more by other Jews in Israel proper in order to pave the way to deporting the "settlers" from their homes so that he could make territorial concessions with a more approval from the Israeli public.

- In fact I hear every such person being so accused [being a Shabac/govt. agent/provocateur] threatening to sue the accusers for slander.”

M: "What are you talking about? "

You seem to be good at googling, so I propose you google Itamar ben-Gvir and "agent".

----------

- We're now in 2006. Hamas has spit in Israel's face in return for its initial assistance.

m: "http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/ZER403A.html
“Yassin did everything in his power to undermine the Oslo accords. Even prior to Prime Minister Rabin’s death, he had the support of the Israeli government. The latter was very reluctant to implement the peace agreement.” "

This webpage is rubbish. The passage you cite contains the following lies:
1) "Even prior to Prime Minister Rabin’s death, he [Yassin] had the support of the Israeli government." -- This is patently false and totally ludicrous. Comepletely contradicts the facts.
2) "The latter [Rabin] was very reluctant to implement the peace agreement". -- Au contraire, the very opposite happened. Rabin was cramming Oslo I and Oslo II down the throats of the Israeli public.

---------

- [I can get my hands on the book called “Global Lockdown” by ordering it from any retailer I want if it's unavailable here] but I won't, because it's a piece of anti-Israel propaganda trumpeting lies.
- [I've seen you guys doctor evidence in con jobs like "Jenin, Jenin" and I sure won't spend money on such trash. BTW I'm sure you still believe the inflated numbers and massacre lie re Jenin. Your charge is hogwash. It's hard to find even one instance where you guys say the whole truth and nothing but.] That's why the testimony of Palestinians has little value for thorough investigators, though most of the world falls for it.

M: "There is no difference between you and people who deny the holocaust. Just like holocaust deniers, you never believe the testimony of survivors and attribute everything to a conspiracy to exterminate the Jewish (Arian?) “nation”. "

Note how M has edited and rearranged my rejoinders and his own so as to cast me in bad light. By doing so and repeating the nauseating racist balderdash in the last passage he's doing himself and his rabid obsessed anti-Israel cause a grave disservice. The facts remain: the Palestinians and many of their rabid supporters have pulled so many stunts playing fast and loose with the truth and whatever mistakes or disinformation the official Israeli spokespeople have made and doled out dwarfs in comparison.

---------

- To proclaim a priori that Jews aren't entitled to settle on disputed lands and only Palestinians deserve to live there is the very essence of racism.

M: "Ye but to say that Jews are allowed to build on disputed land in contradiction to what the Israeli government agreed on in Oslo makes much more sense. "

I don't follow. Anyhow, your side, led by Arafat, effectively buried the Oslo process and has erected a mammoth edifice of demonstrable lies to shift the blame to Israel as if Israel killed the "peace" process in 2000, so kindly don't complain now that Oslo is mostly disregarded by Israel.

---------

- Did the Jordanian occupation of the so-called West Bank ever bother you? Were you ever indignant that Jordan still laid claims to this territory until 1988? I think not. Why aren't you troubled about the theft of legally owned Jewish land and property that occurred in Hebron (1929, 1936), Gush Etzion, Jenin and E. Jerusalem (1948) ad Kfar Darom (1948)? [ It's because you don't care jack about Jewish human rights. The Palestinians and other Arabs get a blank check to trample any Jewish right they want.]

M: "Read the posting above you "

That's an evasion on your part. When you summon enough courage you'll jot down some rejoinder to the point. But I'm not holding my breath. You're only interested at human rights of Arabs in this conflict. Basically it's a waste of time to expect anything even slightly different from you.

-------
[M: "Again there is no difference debating people like you and debating people who believe that America stand for “democracy” that the war for oil is for the “Iraqi people” and that abducting people and torturing people is o.k. since America is fighting “terrorism”. What’s the difference between you and people who accept everything that the American government tall them? "]

-Irrelevant arguments, unjustified linkage to other people and deflective.


M: "If your corrupt and racist government cant survive with the American blood dripping money, that someone who has some brain (unlike you) would ask himself why do America gives so much money to Israel."

You're being cryptic and I couldn't follow do you lost me again. Not to mention your ad hominem. At the hazard of repeating myself, I'd like to itirate that you're hardly in a position to malign others' brain power. I know many fora where you would have been laughed at loudly by a crowd of spectators or readers given your performance in this exchange -- knowledge wise, intellectual wise and debating skills. Your following re-spammed assertion demonstrates your inability to tell the difference between a propaganda session per se and debating an interlocutor from the opposing side:

"In other words “there is no difference debating people like you and debating people who believe that America stand for “democracy” that the war for oil is for the “Iraqi people” and that abducting people and torturing people is o.k. since America is fighting “terrorism”. What’s the difference between you and people who accept everything that the American government tall them? “

M: "First you give me a link and evident that prove my point,"

Needless to say you've lost me also this time. Which point?

M: "...then you ignore the posting of people that give answers to the ridicules question that you bring,"

What answers? You've sidestepped almost every question I've put to you. If you're trying to establish some credibility you're failing abysmally.

M: "...and then you proclaim that any information provided from Palestinian is a lie. blah blah "

In your typical propagandistic fashion you're twisting my words. Here's what I said:
"I've seen you guys doctor evidence in con jobs like "Jenin, Jenin" and I sure won't spend money on such trash. BTW I'm sure you still believe the inflated numbers and massacre lie re Jenin. Your charge is hogwash. It's hard to find even one instance where you guys say the whole truth and nothing but. That's why the testimony of Palestinians has little value for thorough investigators, though most of the world falls for it."

M: "Looking at the long history and tradition of the Jewish people, I would say that you not only a shame, but a self-hating Jew. "

I say characterizations are laughably ridiculous. You (plural) often get accused as "self hating Jews" -- a rather ridiculous phrase that is often hurled at people who make positive contributions to society and do not hate themselves -- but this is the first I encounter a rabid anti-Israel person accusing someone from the other side of being that. This is but to laugh! While you were at it, you forgot to accuse me of being anti-semmitic, "because Arabs are Semities too and you even hate non-Zionist Jews". Somehow I doubt you refrained from saying that just because anti-semitism is only a universal term for Jew hatred.

---------

M: "Hopefully in next comment you can actually deal with my questions (I doubt it). "

You're wasting time, spaming and respaming some of your assertions, almost always not debating honestly, pretending I haven't replied to your questions and evading my own questions. In sum, you're trolling. If I hadn't had the time for the foolishness you're foisting on me and enjoyed debunking your arguments I would have left after two posts.

Again I will answer this just because I think its hilarious how Zionist are all over this web site, since there is possibility of people actually hearing the truth. As always with Zionists there are no answers to question that expose Israel, so again I’m just going to post my old posting with some changes.

“1. Scroll up and find out. I'm not your baby sitter.”

There is no posting of what you say, like your other racist information its a lie.

“2. I've lived in Israel for decades. You stay there for a few weeks at most each visit (if you even been there ore than once or twice). That doesn't cut it. “

That not your business, stop trying to gather information about me so you can get me on one of your country black list of political activists. And I was in Israel (and Palestine) for more then the time that you say.

“You tried and are still attempting to sneak in what had happened prior to the Oct riots that year. I've heard the local Arabs' version, the Israeli Arab leadership's version, the Israeli police version, the Or Committee's version and reached my conclusions. I don't need any lessons from you how to think and I don't have to agree with your line of reasoning. You're the type of person who chastises anyone who even slightly disagrees with your version or position and try to harp on guilt. It's not working.

BTW there was arguably no moral, and certainly no legal, imperative to establish a national inquiry committee re police handling of these riots. The Or Committee came into being due to Ehud Barak's inability to withstand intense political pressure. He knew there was no real justification to assemble this committee. “
M. "Ye, I mean so what if Arab in that area complained menthes before that the police was harassing them, or that one of the judges quit the community that was “investigating” the incidents. I mean the police said it, I believe it, and that settled it. Like the rest of your “history” you rely only on what the Israeli government determines to be true. "
Or “Like most Zionists, you pick and choose from history. There is no difference between you and people who deny the holocaust. Just like holocaust deniers, you never believe the testimony of survivors and attribute everything to a conspiracy to exterminate the Jewish (Arian?) “nation”.”

“No, I don't the lopsided presentation from the Palestinian vantage point. I find the last sentence especially problematic. If you brought a passage from an Israeli webpage as evidence to one of your claims, would you accept every other argument made on that page too? Doubtful.”

So why did you bring that link as evident? That’s brings us back to the original question, do the Palestinian get a fair trial in Israel? You so stupid, first you bring a link and then you say that it’s not true.

“your trick to deflect attention from what I insist on, namely that the criterion is the extent of danger a given person poses to Israel's security, regardless of their identity. You keep trying to crown the reality that Muslims constitute the majority among those detainees and prisoners as proof that those Muslims are targeted for being Muslims.”

No there are jail for being Palestinian. So again “M: "No, it’s not a matter of how many people are jailed, it’s a question of who Israel jail."

“You're lying. I never claimed above that Jewish "settlers" never harm Palestinians. You're blatantly misrepresenting my words and ignoring what I've said.”

This is what you said:“You're complaining without having your facts in order. You seem to enjoy complaining for the heck of it. “

“You know, what's funny and incisively ironic in that webpage is how it rails against the death penalty and relates that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, that proclaims that states and governments may not use cruel or humiliating punishments, was adopted by the Palestinian Authority.”
So again I’m asking: WHY DID YOU BRING THIS LINK AS AVIDANT?

“1. The piece doesn't even relate whether the attackers were religious. Secular Jews always resided in the disputed territories. The shooters could have been secular for all we know.”

Maybe they were u.f.o? Maybe they were red rabbits? Why are you so afraid of the truth?

“This one actually supports my claim -- these Jews were acting *against* the state's authorities.”
The Nazis were acting against the state in their early days, you really don’t knew the definition of fascism.
“All this piece does is it presents conflicting accounts of the stabbing incident. Palestinians are already known to have blamed this sort of incidents on Israelis when the perps were Palestinian in intra-Palestinian feuds.”
m. “Like most Zionists, you pick and choose from history. There is no difference between you and people who deny the holocaust. Just like holocaust deniers, you never believe the testimony of survivors and attribute everything to a conspiracy to exterminate the Jewish (Arian?) “nation”.”

“Dumpling, it wasn't ignored. Au contraire, I proceeded to show it is mostly unfounded.”
Yes it was ignore. But for racists like you anything that Palestinian will say is a lie, how am I suppose to debate with you?

“That doesn't necessarily mean the Govt. will end up accepting said person as a citizen. They have the right to refuse naturalization to persons for several reasons.”

Is one of the reason would be race?

“Says nothing about the naturalization process in the US and therefore makes no comparison to Israel's. Another waste of time.”

Yes it does, I knew how hard it is for racists like you to actually read the whole link.

“Paradoxically, Israel is touted as the only "democracy" in the world that does not offer its citizens the option of civil marriage. Since 1953, only Orthodox Jewish marriages, and civil marriages performed outside Israel, have been legally recognised by the Israeli state. While interfaith and other religious marriages are not prohibited, they are also not legally recognised by the state.”

“Sheesh... this piece makes a mockery of your stance by highlighting the stricter naturalization processes in humane civilized European democracies and is very in line with my position.”

This peace highlights the racist thinking of Zionists:
“Palestinians have a perfect right to fall in love and raise enormous families, but they must exercise this right in their own ethnic state, not in a country they seek to destroy by voting for Hamas. Things must be understood properly: the issue here is exercising the right to return, not the right to fall in love, which essentially means the right to wipe Israel from the map.”
Or: “M: "In America by marring someone you begin a process of becoming a citizen,” your not denied that on the basis of your race.

“Your point being? It's almost as if you want to paint me as someone who supports these Get refusing men and/or the rabbinical court system that perpetuates the problem. News for you: if biblical Judaism was dominant in marriage and divorce manners among Jews in Israel, this problem wouldn't have existed.”

So again “why do woman in Israel cannot be remarried?”

“Meanwhile I don't see you criticize anything benighted within Palestinian society or even the honor killings and endemic rape among Israeli Arabs.”
Who says I don’t? How does that justifies the oppression against women? As allwais with Zionists when they run out of arguments they say that “the person is doing it too”.

“Most if not all of these activities he engaged in were a series of provocations designed to give religious Zionist Jews in the disputed territories ill repute for Yithak Rabin's benefit. Rabin tried and succeeded in a considerable degree to have the "settlers" hated even more by other Jews in Israel proper in order to pave the way to deporting the "settlers" from their homes so that he could make territorial concessions with a more approval from the Israeli public.”

Raviv was an agent long before Rabin, and he was part of group that killed Rabin. So how does an agent that suppose to make the settlers being hate kills his commander?
Or “M: Again you doing my job, Raviv was not only part of “failing to prevent Rabin's murder” (which is still in question) but also help organize settlers and youth in “self defance group”. In America if a FBI agent organizes the KKK (and it happened) it means that the FBI is organizing the KKK. "

“This webpage is rubbish.”
As always you ignore what your cant deal with. Since it mite have been written by an Arab I surprise that did not use the “Arab always lie” strategy.

“This is patently false and totally ludicrous. Comepletely contradicts the facts.”
No, its true, but as one sided racist you wont knew it.

“Au contraire, the very opposite happened. Rabin was cramming Oslo I and Oslo II down the throats of the Israeli public.”

No, Rabim was forced by the peace movements that was developed after the genocide and occupation against the Lebanese in Israel to make an agreement that he did not believe in from day one.

“Note how M has edited and rearranged my rejoinders and his own so as to cast me in bad light. By doing so and repeating the nauseating racist balderdash in the last passage he's doing himself and his rabid obsessed anti-Israel cause a grave disservice. The facts remain: the Palestinians and many of their rabid supporters have pulled so many stunts playing fast and loose with the truth and whatever mistakes or disinformation the official Israeli spokespeople have made and doled out dwarfs in comparison.”
Here is what you said “but I won't, because it's a piece of anti-Israel propaganda trumpeting lies. I've seen you guys doctor evidence in con jobs like "Jenin, Jenin" and I sure won't spend money on such trash. BTW I'm sure you still believe the inflated numbers and massacre lie re Jenin. Your charge is hogwash.
It's hard to find even one instance where you guys say the whole truth and nothing but. That's why the testimony of Palestinians has little value for thorough investigators, though most of the world falls for it. But that's hardly surprising anymore as most people in our society are uncritically thinking, lazy and full of mush inside their heads.”

And here again is what I said “ M: "There is no difference between you and people who deny the holocaust. Just like holocaust deniers, you never believe the testimony of survivors and attribute everything to a conspiracy to exterminate the Jewish (Arian?) “nation”. "

“I don't follow.”
No you don’t. Your “history” (since you don’t believe anything that Palestinian say) is full of lies.

“You're being cryptic and I couldn't follow do you lost me again.”
Ill try to make it simple for you, if America bomb kids for oil, undermines democratic elected presidents and massacre and kill people all over the world for profit, than why are they suddenly when it comes to Israel they support “democracy”? your corrupt government could not survive one day without the amerikkkan money.

“M: "First you give me a link and evident that prove my point,"

Needless to say you've lost me also this time. Which point?”

http://www.phrmg.org/monitor1997/apr97-5.htm

and the point about Raviv.

M: "...and then you proclaim that any information provided from Palestinian is a lie. blah blah "
"I've seen you guys doctor evidence in con jobs like "Jenin, Jenin" and I sure won't spend money on such trash. BTW I'm sure you still believe the inflated numbers and massacre lie re Jenin. Your charge is hogwash. It's hard to find even one instance where you guys say the whole truth and nothing but. That's why the testimony of Palestinians has little value for thorough investigators, though most of the world falls for it."

m. ““Like most Zionists, you pick and choose from history. There is no difference between you and people who deny the holocaust. Just like holocaust deniers, you never believe the testimony of survivors and attribute everything to a conspiracy to exterminate the Jewish (Arian?) “nation”.”

“you forgot to accuse me of being anti-semmitic, "because Arabs are Semities too and you even hate non-Zionist Jews".”

That a good point.


So after reading all this thread I can only say: “Your more stupid than I thought, if I was a racist-Zionist I was ashamed of you. First you give me a link and evident that prove my point, then you ignore the posting of people that give answers to the ridicules question that you bring, and then you proclaim that any information provided from Palestinian is a lie. Maybe this is what constitutes being a Zionist.

Looking at the long history and tradition of the Jewish people, I would say that you not only a shame, but a self-hating Jew.

Hopefully in the next comment you can actually deal with my questions (I doubt it).”

The point of debating you if you bring evident and then say that it’s a lie? (sound to me like someone is having a breakdown).


I invite everyone on Indybay to read this exchange, since it’s a good exposure of the stupidity and racism of Zionists.

M: "I think its hilarious how Zionist are all over this web site, since there is possibility of people actually hearing the truth."

LMFAO. These mouth lathering anti-Israel zealots are ever the delusional raving lunatics. You're but a part of the relentless Palestinian-Nazi propaganda mill and you're tasked with churning out lies faster than your colleague can.


M: "As always with Zionists there are no answers to question that expose Israel, so again I’m just going to post my old posting with some changes. "

Keep playing in your sandbox. I'm not going to let you waste anymore of my time with your unmitigated tripe and the Goeblessian propaganda tactics you've been taught by the Palestinazi terror groups which they borrowed from both the communists and Hitler's heritage.

I especially rumbled in laughter reading how suspicious you are that you even believe I was trying to collect personal info on you to alert the Israeli authorities.

If you run with every single Palestinian and Arab grievance against and demand from Israel to the fullest against the wishes and security of virtually all Israeli Jews and the support most US Jews have for Israel as a Jewish state, why don't you do the next logical step and become Muslim? Do you abstain from that due to some perverse delight you get from remaining Jewish?

I'm out of here. Don't expect further exchange of words.

Wow, talk about panicking and losing it, I gauss it’s not easy being a racist. God, if it was not so funny to see how those racist loss it, it would be sad. As I said before I gauss that what’s constitute being a Zionist.

“I especially rumbled in laughter reading how suspicious you are that you even believe I was trying to collect personal info on you to alert the Israeli authorities.”

I’m not, its just part of growing up and living in Israel, one who holds the truth and fights against oppression and racism would be expect to be spied on and harassed by the secret service and racists-fascists like you.

“If you run with every single Palestinian and Arab grievance against and demand from Israel to the fullest against the wishes and security of virtually all Israeli Jews.”

I’m not; I want Jews and Israelis to live in security without exploiting and killing the Palestinian. Not only their a significant amount of Israelis who oppose the occupation (defiantly against the keeping the settlements) the fact that some people are too brain washed does not justifies genocide.

“and the support most US Jews have for Israel as a Jewish state,”

Most Jews like me support a Jewish state, not the genocide against the Palestinian. You can never believe that Israel can survive without killing Palestinian and this why you’re racist-Zionist.

“Why don't you do the next logical step and become Muslim?”

Again you’re doing my job, stop exposing your racist thinking so bluntly. Ill tell you a secret, Zionists on indybay are not suppose to expose their racism and conservatism, on this web site you’re suppose to be progressive. You’re suppose to love Muslim just not those that blow themselves up. Again if I was a Zionist racist I would be ashamed of you.
And I’m not going to become a Muslim because I’m an atheist.

“Do you abstain from that due to some perverse delight you get from remaining Jewish?”

Like most Jews in your apartheid country I do not believe in god and do not practice Judaism, (which again brings out the ridicules definition of ISSraeli nationalism) there for I’m not a Jew. My I.D. says that I’m a Jew which gives me the privilege in iSSrael to obtain a decant job, not to be harassed on every corner by 18 year-old army kids, and not to see my family being shut at by racist settler and the military.

“I'm out of here. Don't expect further exchange of words.”

That’s sad; I learn more from your stupidity and honest racism, than I learn from a lot of hypocrites Zionist that pretend on indybay to be progressive. And besides, watching you lose your mind, slowly but surely, was not only funny but a great pleasure.

So let’s see, as always with Zionist-racists I never get any answers, but since they don’t believe in any information from Palestinians (or anything that contradict their views), even their own evident is not good when it’s proves their falls, their is not much to expect from Zionists racists.

I guess I will always wonder:

How can religion constitute a nationality (epically since Zionism opposes religion at first)?

Why does amerikkka, a country that bombs and kills people all over the world gives so money and weapon to Israel?

Why did 13 Arab civilians were killed by the Israeli police? (unless you’re a Zionist and for you this Arab never existed)

And why there is racism towards not only Palestinians and Arab Israelis but also Jews from Arab countries.

Why do iSSrael never arrest settlers that kill Palestinians.

And one last thing just for you

m. ““Like most Zionists, you pick and choose from history. There is no difference between you and people who deny the holocaust. Just like holocaust deniers, you never believe the testimony of survivors and attribute everything to a conspiracy to exterminate the Jewish (Arian?) “nation”.”

I INVITE EVERYONE ON INDYBAY TO READ THIS DEBATE; THIS IS A GOOD AXPESURE OF THE STUPIDTY AND RACISM OF ZIONISTS.

Wow, talk about panicking and losing it, I gauss it’s not easy being a racist. God (I'm an aethiest but also a hypocrite so I invoke Him anyway), if it was not so funny to see how those anti-Zionist racists loss it, it would be sad. As I said before I gauss that what’s constitute being an anti-Zionist.

“I especially rumbled in laughter reading how suspicious you are that you even believe I was trying to collect personal info on you to alert the Israeli authorities.”

You're right, I am, its just part of growing up and living in Israel and then losing my small brain, one deranged little man who holds the truth in contempt and fights for oppression of Jews and Christians and for PaleSStinian racism would expect to be spied on and harassed by the secret service and anti-racists like you.

“If you run with every single Palestinian and Arab grievance against and demand from Israel to the fullest against the wishes and security of virtually all Israeli Jews.”

I do; I want Jews and Israelis to live in insecurity while the PaleSStinians exploit and kill them. Not only their a significant amount of Israelis who oppose the PaleSStinian occupation of Jewish lands defiantly against the keeping the Muslim settlements) the fact that some people like me are too brain washed does not justifies attempted genocide against Jews.

“and the support most US Jews have for Israel as a Jewish state,”

Most Jews unlike me support a Jewish state, not the genocide against the Israelis. I can never believe that the Palestinian entity can survive without killing Israelis and this why I'm racist anti-Zionist.

“Why don't you do the next logical step and become Muslim?”

Again I'm doing your job, I should stop exposing my racist thinking so bluntly. Ill tell you a secret, anti-Zionists on indybay are not suppose to expose their racism and conservatism and reactionary nature, on this web site you’re suppose to pretend to be progressive. You’re suppose to love all Muslims just not those that don't tow the PaleSStinian party line. Again if I was a Zionist anti-racist I would be ashamed of myself.
And I’m not going to become a Muslim because I like to pretend I’m an atheist while I am prized by my Muslim friends as a useful tool because they always flaunt my Jewishness to prove to everyone that they are not anti-Semites at all because a few Jews exist within their ranks.


“Do you abstain from that due to some perverse delight you get from remaining Jewish?”

Unlike most Jews in your apartheid country I pretend I do not believe in god even though I still believe a little and yet do not practice Judaism, (which again brings out the ridicules definition of PaleSStinian nationalism) there for I’m not a Jew, except the occasions when I'm in the mood to be. My I.D. says that I’m a Jew which gives me as an immoral person the privilege to take advantage of the country I hate so much, Israel, to obtain a decant job there, not to be harassed on every corner by the courageous 18 year-old army kids, and not to see my family being shut at by the beautiful settler and the military.

“I'm out of here. Don't expect further exchange of words.”

I'm pretending that’s sad; I learn more from your intelligence and honest anti-racism, than I learn from a lot of hypocrites anti-Zionist like myself that pretend on indybay to be progressive. And besides, when you watch me lose my mind, exponently, was not only funny but a great pleasure to you.

So let’s see, as always with anti-Zionist racists you never get any answers from me, but since they I don't believe in any information from Israelis but only from Palestinians (or anything that supports their views), even my own evident is not good when it’s proves my falls, their is not much to expect from anti-Zionists racists.

I gauss I will always wonder:

How can religion constitute a nationality (even though some religious Jews participated in Zionism at first)?

Why does amerikkka, a country that bombs and kills people all over the world gives so money and weapon to Arab countries?

Why did 13 unruly Arab civilians were killed in riots while they endangered the lives of Israeli police? (unless you’re a anti-Zionist asshole and for you this Jew never counts)

And why there is racism towards not only Jews and Christians but also Muslims that sell some land to Jews. I heard that in PaleSStine they didn't allow a Muslim that had sold a plot to Jews last year to be buried in any Muslim cemetary. Is this not terrible??

Why do PaleSStine never arrest Palestinians that murder and wound Jews.

And one last thing just for you

m. ““Like most Zionists, you pick and choose from history. There is no difference between you and people who deny the holocaust. Just like holocaust deniers, you never believe the testimony of survivors and attribute everything to a conspiracy to exterminate the Jewish (Arian?) “nation”.”

I INVITE EVERYONE ON INDYBAY TO READ THIS DEBATE; THIS IS A GOOD AXPESURE OF THE STUPIDTY AND RACISM OF DERANGED ANTI-ZIONISTS.

THIS IS WHAT DESPERATION LOOKS LIKE.