Pictures From The Breakaway March

The sign that says "Fuck Bush":

Simple, but right on target.

smooch smooch!
kisses and love all my pinkos

Chuck a rock in my behalf~

Down with Sh*tibank!

Down w/IMF!

Down w/IUS Imperialism!

Power to the People NOW & ALWAYS~

San Francisco police brass have drawn up elaborate plans to deal with the massive anti-war protests expected when and if the United States goes to war with Iraq.

Those plans will be put to the test Saturday during a planned anti-war protest in The City. Police say they are expecting 40,000 marchers who will gather at Justin Herman Plaza in the morning and march to the Civic Center in the afternoon, much as they did in October.

SFPD will deploy all officers from the Special Investigative Division and police brass have ordered all cops who have the day off to report to duty. Many officers will be pre-deployed to various points along the march route hours before the protest begins. In addition, mobile command posts will be deployed and all cops will be issued "protest kits," namely a healthy supply of plastic flexi-cuffs to subdue unwieldy protesters."
http://www.examiner.com/news/default.jsp?story=n.security.0117w

--Aren't newspapers informative?

Were these paid "activists" used to make the rest of us look bad?

To my Anarchist sisters and brothers, I applaud your energy, your committment, and your strength in the fight for peace and justice. I do not however, condone any acts of violence or vandalism done in the name of our cause.

While I understand (and share) your anger and frustration at corporate control of our society, window smashing and tagging of corporate property alienates our moderate brothers and sisters from joining our fight.

All mindsets are needed for this lengthy battle to rid our culture of corporate vermin. Only through mass mobilzation can we win against the monolithic "MAN". Violence is THEIR way not ours. When you do violence (even for noble causes) you're doing exactly what they hope for. It gives them fuel to discredit and discount everything we're working for.

I hope that you will channel your immense energys and anger into construction not destruction from now on.

Peace!

I marched with the anarchists at the breakaway march, and I don't consider myself a radical protester. You stated your concern that moderates would be put-off or alienated by the actions of the people who smashed windows or tagged buildings. Well, I know that I personally am not prepared to destroy property to protest, however I am certainly willing to act as a decoy to protect those who are committing those actions. I think many of us who marched with the blac/pink bloc did so in solidarity. Most of us did not cause property damage, but we were there to protect those who did from police and to show our support. In my view, that makes us more moderate than radical!

JA VEE KNOW JUST HOW CONCERNED FEELS. WE DID NOT ACTIVELY PARTICIPATE IN THE KILLINGS, BUT WERE THERE TO SHOW OUR SOLIDARITY. OH TO HAVE THOSE NIGHT-TIME TORCH PARADES AND SPEECHES AGAIN!!! Wake UP! Does cheering on a rapist during his act make you a bad person?

You can't be "violent" towards innanimate objects, towards property. Yes, you can break things, but that really isn't violence. I personally was not at the protest to break things- I was serving free food- but believe me, as an anarchist, most of us are very much into being creative and building alternatives and community. By destroying their symbols of control and power, we are not resorting to their violence- we are reclaiming our personal power. A new world cannot be created without destroying the old, even if only symbolically and metaphorically. Being willing to smash their institutions is just the next step- we cannot continue to placidly ask for our rights- they will kill to keep their money and power. What ends are we willing to go to for freedom and justice, without actually killing? I think unifying and breaking a few windows and liberating some property is a great start.

Right on Sphinx. It amazes me how often the debate of violence and non violence or pro v con property destruction has occurred and how people still do not understand that both sides have incredibly vadid points. As Native American Activist Ward Churchill says, the question is not whether to use revolutionary violence, but when.

My goal is to tell that asshole in power that I am against his war. I intend to get the point across that I will not sit calmly asking him to stop, while he kills thousands of innocent people. I am demanding that he end this war for profit and by any means necessary. I respect the fact that others may not be willing to perform the same actions as myself, or risk the same things as I am. All I ask is that if I respect their decisions, they give me some room and respect mine.

We should be fighting the government, not each other.

For the record, I do not live near California and I did not attend this demo, I am mearly trying to express the views that I feel others carry along with myself.

Is that a crime?

I sincerely wish that Starbucks or the INS would go to all the rioters' homes or workplaces to smash in their windows and spray graffiti everywhere.

It is disgusting that this website proudly announces that vandals ran around commiting crimes in the guise of a protest.

It is saddening that only two of these criminals were arrested.

Tim

I notice you didnt post YOUR address, huh Tom?
coward!

I haven't smashed anything of anyone's. Or do you want to come "protest capitalism" in my city and burn down my evil capitalist house with my evil capitalist family in it?

Tim

what i want is for you to go back to freeper land where you belong. maybe we could get the INS to focus on that instead of imprisoning innocent good people?

Your tax money paid for the smashing of Iraq's water treatment plants. This caused scores, some say hundreds, of thousands of Iraqi civilians, almost all of them women and children, to die slow, painful, hideous deaths from drinking disease infected water.

You paid for that.

America's Secretary of State, whose salary you also paid, said it was "worth it."

And you're more upset over a couple of windows!?!

Get some perspective, man.

Somewhere between half a million, and two million (depending on whose version you believe) Iraqi civilians have died from acts of war that you paid for. Do you consider human life to be so cheap that a few thousand dollars worth of insured glass is worth more? How sick and twisted are you anyway?

First off I had never even heard of freeper land until you said it. You don't need to be a right wing nutjob to be against violence and vandalism.

You have yet to even attemp to justify this vandalism in the name of protest.

Tim

Now, prove that I:

1- Live in the USA.
2- Have paid taxes that support the armed forces.

Tim

Enquiring minds want to know.

I live in NY - but I haven't paid any taxes that support the armed forces. So not true just assumed, and you know what happens when you assume...

Tim

Do you have any tips for the rest of us?

http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/freeearth/harass_brass.html

(snip)

Sabotage was an extremely useful tactic. On May 26, 1970, the USS Anderson was preparing to steam from San Diego to Vietnam. But someone had dropped nuts, bolts and chains down the main gear shaft. A major breakdown occurred, resulting in thousands of dollars worth of damage and a delay of several weeks. Several sailors were charged, but because of a lack of evidence the case was dismissed.

With the escalation of naval involvement in the war the level of sabotage grew. In July of 1972, within the space of three weeks, two of the Navy's aircraft carriers were put out of commission by sabotage. On July 10, a massive fire swept through the admiral's quarters and radar center of the USS Forestall, causing over $7 million in damage. This delayed the ship's deployment for over two months.

In late July, the USS Ranger was docked at Alameda, California. Just days before the ship's scheduled departure for Vietnam, a paint-scraper and two 12-inch bolts were inserted into the number-four-engine reduction gears causing nearly $1 million in damage and forcing a three-and-a-half month delay in operations for extensive repairs. The sailor charged in the case was acquitted. In other cases, sailors tossed equipment over the sides of ships while at sea.

The House Armed Services Committee summed up the crisis of rebellion in the Navy:

"The US Navy is now confronted with pressures....which, if not controlled, will surely destroy its enviable tradition of discipline. Recent instances of sabotage, riot, willful disobedience of orders, and contempt for authority....are clear-cut symptoms of a dangerous deterioration of discipline."

(snip)

FROM VALÈNCIA: DESTROY FASCISM!!!NO IMPERIALIST WAR!!!

Police provocateurs in black masks -- how original. Is this a fashion statement from the boys who brought us Cointelpro?

The brainless fools who let themselves be led by provocateurs deserve to be arrested for vandalism. Not just vandalizing private property, but also defacing and discrediting the larger antiwar movement. Now with all these pictures conveniently posted, it should be much easier to track them down. Easier for the organized antiwar movement to exclude them, and publicize their activities so that they are universally ostracized.

And don't bother giving me your commie bullshit about how 'private property is theft' and violence is "liberating" -- you idiots are just "anti-capitalist" versions of Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz, neoconservatives in bandannas, who think you have a license to destroy. Go fuck yourselves. And stay out of the antiwar movement: we don't need or want you.

-- Justin Raimondo
Antiwar.com

'the feminine douche products ad'

way to go mikey, tell it like it is.

I was in DC 1/18

in SF protesters smash Starbucks, while in DC portesters
stopped in for a drink of coffee.

Granted it was f-ing freezing in DC so I cant judge those who had to break down and get something warm.

Hey Justin - I understand you are a libertarian and so you are new to this protest stuff.

So let me give you some pointers.

First, cop-baiting is considered one of the fundamental strategies of cointelpro. Going around accusing people of being a cop is one of the things a cop does. Confusing, no? But for a "newbie" like yourself it is mostly annoying, only after a longer period of time will it be suspicious.

Second, in protest movements, government/private property is targeted. From Gandhi to the 60s to Genoa, this is true. If you are historically inept, don't blame us.

Sorry Justin. Your are exposing yourself as naive and really, really green.

Hey, I went to your talk at UC. I read your column and try to promote it to others. I tried to get some journalists to cover it but one at the EB Express said you sound like a bitter contrarian. What kind of depressed me about it was that I can't picture more than a couple of the people in that sparse audience even bothering to lift a finger or show up at even a mass event like a march - it would totally go against their libertarian individualist grain.

Most people don't realize this but the Young Republican club at Cal is much more organized and media savvy than any left wing group. The antiwar coalition there seemed to all fall apart over the undue influence of the ISO which people rejected. The left groups are far more organized and realistic than the libertarians in turn. Did you follow what the Young Republicans have been doing during the past year? They have a really well funded from outside magazine called the Patriot (which has much worse writing than just a few of us were able to produce at eat the state http://eatthestate.org), and for instance, they were astute enough to create a flap where they completely fabricated the notion that the university had banned the star spangled banner and the flag at the 9-11 memorial, and they wrote up a story that David Horowitz then distributed nationwide and got onto the AP wires. The chancellor had to hold a press conference to call them liars, and a bunch of conservatives who heard about it on Rush Limbaugh showed up at the memorial ready to yell at the communist student body that they were envisioning. There is no other student political group that is nearly this media savvy - they get onto Fox news all the time.

Some of the libertarians seemed like they thought that just sitting there and mentally holding a position is the equivalent of doing something about it. A few seemed naive, and a few seem to portray a general attitude that most people are sheep and that they are smarter and more talented than average and are dragged down by society (the Ayn Rand idea that the sheep are sucking off the extorted taxes of the worthy individualists like Howard Roark), and most seemed more concerned about their 'welfare' taxes than war taxes. (don't get me wrong, I published an interview on this site with Berkeley tax resisters recently).

You've criticized the ANSWER/Worker's world marches for not giving enough equal time to conservatives, but why don't more conservative antiwar people show up, or at least set up their own event to petition the government to stop, you know? My father recently became a libertarian/conservative when he retired (switching over from Nader), and he shocked me when he came out agains thte Iraq war and said it sounds like the British empire, the way they describe 'regime change' like it's a done deal. He sends me a stream of stupid conservative magazines and Horowitz tomes. Yet I talked with him on the phone after the thing Saturday and he asked if I had gone and criticized anyone who had gone with a sign as part of the moronic communitarian masses who didn't influence anything at all, totally wasting their time. This is your problem - libertarians don't seem to like coalitions, and from what I can tell, they culturally are repelled by this country's nonviolent protest traditions where you might have to walk next to a hippie with a sign, and you guys seem to be opposed to the labor movement successes that make this country such a great place as compared to Mexico, such as the 8 hour day and OSHA.

And apparently you also can't deal with non-nonviolent protests either. Can you tell us if you opposed the Boston Tea party too? According to Ayn Rand, the only parts of government that you guys would like to keep are the court system to enforce contracts (and somehow they would beyond corruption - there would magically be no judges such as Scalia who support Texas' constitutional right to ban sodomy, and there would be absolutely no incentive to bribe), and a military and police system to prevent the jealous masses from damaging the property of the Howard Roark types. Wait, how can you libertarians be so antiwar again? If all you want to keep is the police..

I always laugh at the 5 person spartacist league on campus selling their paper because they keep saying "we want to try real communism" but they don't face the fact that the communist system is systematically flawed because there is a vanguard and a central committee which holds all the power, and it will inevitably become corrupt and the rest of people assigned crappy jobs by the committee will lose incentive to work and so the committee will have to send the police after them. The system is also inherently imperialist, where a communist nation will inevitably seek to convert neighboring nations.

So why do you support a systematically flawed idea of property rights above all else. Under pure capitalism, it is expected that a few people will come to own large shares of the total wealth and property (surely you don't expect an egalitarian result?). The system would prevent the commoners from democratically choosing to abrogate the property rights of a few. This situation would provide an incentive for people with property to bribe judges and police (corruption), and also, it would provide an imperialist incentive where wealthy would seek to convert neighboring nations to adopt the same system. So aren't you fighting an uphill battle as an antiwar libertarian? Why do you think countries such as England and Spain (and the US) created empires in Asia and Africa anyway? Would they volunteer to stop doing this despite the great incentive to do so out of the goodness of their hearts?

I know, I know. Everyone should write letters to our rulers and congresspeople. That could do it!

Dear Pres. Bush,
Please please please stop killing civilian populations in the near East. This is wrong. What would jesus do?
yours truly, ...

Look how successful strategies like this have been in the past. We stopped the Vietnam war! When the vietnam war started, millions of americans joined the peace movement and sure enough 12 years later, 3 times the length of WWII and the Civil War, after killing millions of civilians and destabilizing nearby Cambodia via bombardments and letting Pol pot take over, the US government listened and removed the troops. We just have to be patient.

From the SF IndyMedia report:

"Following the march in San Francisco, one thousand people joined a radical anti-capitalist breakaway march and militantly marched through the financial center smashing windows and graffitting the SF Chronicle, British Consulate, CitiCorp, the INS building, Starbucks, and Victoria's Secret."

OK...a march against capitalism is reasonably groovy...I'm not big on capitalism. Unlike Mr. Raimundo, my experience with the system has led me to the conclusion that it sucks.

However...

"Smashing windows and graffitting" the primary news outlet in SF, hands the press a reason to slander the movement as a whole. Tactically speaking, its just plain stupid. The press always focuses on the weirdoes and the morons. Why make it easy for them?

And Victoria's Secret?!!! Boy, there's a blow against the Empire. What in blazes were they thinking, attacking a lingerie shop? Is there some revolutionary logic inherent in attacking the purveyers of thongs?Dumb...Or else the work of provocateurs...

Justin Raimundo is absolutely spot-on. One can believe that property is theft, yet still recognize that people who heave bricks through store windows are assholes...Its not a huge leap to conclude that they may also be the police.


Also, how does one "militantly march"?

I don't think anyone harmed the Victoria's secret. There was just an incident where a fairly slim looking guy was swinging an examiner newsbox in a circle around his head, in a spectacular physically improbable fashion, nearby to the Victoria's secret. The newsrack was probably fine too. Anyway, have any of you ever walked down 6th street or parts of Market and mission? It seems to me that thousands of businesses have graffiti and glass etching on their windows and facades. Just the other day I was walking behind some teens on Haight and one had a device that looked like a squirt gun that allowed him to mark his tag on every flat surface he passed. And this incident hardly got any coverage. It's not going to discredit the 150,000 people who marched any more than the news media already ignored them.

Plus, do you see this - the police were actually firing wooden bullets at the raiders fans yesterday, yet no one was arrested and raiders fans overall aren't considered discredited by this more egregious behavior where they actually harmed police and burned things:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/01/20/MN62823.DTL
Oakland -- The Raider celebration turned ugly in some parts of Oakland Sunday night as revelers took to the streets along a main thoroughfare and broke windows, set fires and threw rocks at police, authorities said.

In one case, firefighters were called out to battle a blaze inside an auto repair shop on 39th Avenue, where dozens of people had gathered. In another case, firefighters had to combat a vehicle fire after an apparent crash on I- 580.
cont. http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/01/20/MN62823.DTL

thanks for the awesome photos.. wish i had stayed

Without their "voluntary servitude" the leader would be impotent. As Gandhi points out:

Even the most despotic government cannot stand except for the consent of the governed which consent is often forcibly procured by the despot. Immediately the subject ceases to fear the despotic force, his power is gone (Gandhi, 1980, p.27)

In actual practice, the withdrawal of co-operation takes the form of civil disobedience, strikes, occupations, boycotts, and a general mass non-compliance with the wishes of the oppressor. [Gene Sharp (1973) has documented over 200 successful techniques of nonviolent resistance.] In the great Indian strike or hartel of 1930 against the Salt Laws, for example, virtually the entire subcontinent was shut down and British rule paralyzed (Bondurant, 1958).

:: When pacifists start shutting things down, they'll get respect...

Pacifist, you're not. Leninist, you are perceived to be.

Now what?

Go back to your hole, Royce. Do you really think you are representative of what any normal person thinks? Go troll some other BBS while you wait for 6 more inches to grow around your waist.

:: uhh, Royce, you think you're representative?
by Nihilist • Tuesday January 21, 2003 at 02:17 AM

:: Go back to your hole, Royce.

I live in a house. Do you live in a hole?

:: Do you really think you are representative of what any normal person thinks?

Yup. Do you have a rebuttal or does reality confuse you, too?

Altho I prefer non-violent action, personally I got a thrill from reading about the smashing of the INS building, Starbucks and Victoria Secret (both of the latter are on the http://www.boycottisraeligoods.org list). I cannot condone it, but I must admit, it gave me a thrill. Thanks for that! Just as long as no one got hurt. It is unfortunate in this country that people don't seem to take notice or listen unless there's something sensational, like violence, to accompany the message sometimes. Just like in Palestine-Israel, the Israelis try to completely ignore the very existence of Palestinians, until Oooops! Like out of the Blue, a terrorist bomber appears! And they get all indignant and outraged! "Palestinians don't exist! How can they complain?!"

Sure, some say they play into the hands of the Israelis because the Israelis then use this as their much-needed excuse to escalate their ethnic cleansing campaign (of course they say they are merely "defending" themselves and their (please don't make me gag) "democracatic country").

But there is no denying that these terrorist bombers have brought world attention to the Palestinians' plight (which is still largely hidden from the American public by the Zionist corporate media--- however now with the internet people can dig for the truth and find it-- it is possible to find with a little effort) and both Israel's and the Palestinians ecomony have suffered greatly, especially the Palestinians but they didn't have much to lose anyway compared to the Israelis. And nobody in their right mind wants to go to that hellhole called Israel now. And the whole world condemns Israel, except for the US but this too is changing. Soon Israel will be totally isolated and will be forced to obey the over 80 UN Resolutions that thus far Israel has defied.

I can hardly wait for the day. If Israel wants peace, there will have to be justice. If Americans want peace, we are going to have to stand up for what we believe in, like the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence. Liberty and Justice for ALL. No more racism! No more Zionism! No more imperialism!

Honestly, when I heard about this rampage on Saturday night from a friend who happened to see it as she was walking back to BART from the ANSWER rally, I really was sad. I mean, the emotion of sadness actually swept over me for a few hours.

I thought to myself, "here we go, the day would have been almost perfect, but maybe its the end of the peace movement already." I mean, I was out there with many of my friends that day - we came as a group of almost 30 - and we were all out there because we are opposed to violence in all its forms, and we see war as being the utmost form of violence.

But I have to admit. I've been struggling the past few days, reading post after post on indymedia, and though I still feel I could NEVER do anything like this myself, I have to say, the arguments for these actions are well reasoned, intelligent, and simply must be considered.

I just thought the anarchists that have had so much attention since Seattle were a bunch of punks, with too much teenage angst out for a good time.

One of the tenants of my philosophy is that people should always struggle not to dehumanize others. I think it is what allows violence to be possible. But I was talking to a buddy at work yesterday about what happened, and he said, "hey graham, have you ever TRIED to look at it from the other side? I mean, don't you think you're dehumanizing THEM by not even trying to listen to their viewpoint? you're always talking about that right?"

This really got me thinking. My buddy's not even the political type at all. Usually I can tell that he just gets sick of listening to me every day when i come into work saying, "you won't believe what they're doing now!" (I just can't help myself sometimes) But he's right. He may have helped me make one of the biggest changes in my politics in my life.

I guess sometimes its good just to step back and reevaulate things. Sometimes its so easy to get swept up in your own thinking - especially when you're in the minority - that you don't have a chance to do this. Its just really hard. You get used to defending yourself against rightwingers all the time and that turns into getting used to defending yourself endlessly against anyone you're arguing with.

So after Wayne finished putting me in check, a few hours later, a few muslim guys came to the counter to order a couple of coffee. I took their order, and when I was filling up their cups I overheard a piece of their conversation. One of them was saying to the other "You wouldn't believe it!!! I swear, I was walking by there last night and the whole front of the building was trashed!! The windows were broken, there was spray paint on the walls, i can't remember exactly what it said...have you heard anything about this? Someone must've done it during that big march yesterday. Yusuf is gonna love it when he hears about this!"

anyway, that just topped it off. I mean, these guys were really excited about this. Hell, I went to a few of those protests down there the other week, but I never really thought of what it must be like to feel like you're at risk of being detained.

I don't think these actions alone will have any real affect of the INS process or on government policy, but I just can't write them off anymore.

I guess different people just have different ways of doing things. If we can stick together on this we'll be stronger.

PEACE :-)

I would love to see the black bloc descend on downtown during a weekday, or if a hundred people chained themselves together in front of the Federal Building or the stock exchange or the mall or whatever. I don't know how feasible that would be or anything, but it would be cool. And I would like to suggest trying your direct actions without the semi-uniform. I think you might have an easier time picking up people of fthe street, willing to protest, if everyone wasn't wearing a uniform. Hope to see you around. -S

Click here:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/01/1560511_comment.php#1560745

(snip)

One guy I heard about once . . .

(snip)

i was at the march, i think generally all this is awesome, but the destruction is not cool. the effect of doing damage to property is simply to have attention taken away from the postitive aspects of the protest and allow the opposition to focus on the negative. violence allows those against the protest to criticize us and gloss over our intentions by focusing on the fact that windows were broken and havoc was wreaked. they already completely downplayed the size of the march to try and trivialize our impact, now they have more fodder for criticism and negativity that could have been avoided. i'm not criticizing the independent march, i'm just thinking of the negativity that can now be ascribed to the protest because of the destructive actions of some marchers. at the same time, is this sort of action also neccessary on some level to jolt people out of their apathetic mindsets? i'm not sure, open to others opinions...

"or if a hundred people chained themselves together in front of the Federal Building"

we did that recently, after idiot congress voted for war. We kept most deliveries and cars out of the building for a number of hours as well as some of the workers. Forty were arrested. It was a good action and there needs to be more of that. Blatant and sudden acts of betrayal by the government infuriate enough people that actions like that become almost natural. Slow gradual acts make it harder to incite those actions. The key to this one was to plan in advance for the betrayed we knew might happen.

to brainiacs, smashing stuff is a sign of some blah blah blah and using that theory, it turns people off.

all normal people and realpolitik people (like bush and company) understand that smashing stuff ups the ante a little bit, shows more conviction, and more raw unpredictability which would stretch the impact of the protest beyond the intentions of the politicians who are supposed to be running the anti-war dissent in this country. if you want to talk tactics, lets talk tactics!

:: ...smashing stuff ups the ante a little bit, shows more conviction, and more raw unpredictability which would stretch the impact of the protest...

So marching against violence in Iraq was really not the point after all?

You are all idiots, socialists, communists and need to get the hell out of America if you don't like it. You sit here and brag about breaking the law and don't even have a clue.

"all normal people and realpolitik people (like bush and company) understand that smashing stuff ups the ante a little bit, shows more conviction, and more raw unpredictability which would stretch the impact of the protest beyond the intentions of the politicians who are supposed to be running the anti-war dissent in this country. if you want to talk tactics, lets talk tactics!"

Suicide bombers are also quite effective. Where do you suggest that we draw the line?

What is up with the masks?!?! How is it taking a stand if you hide? Thats not just stupid, its irresposible!

If all bush wanted was to send a black bloc to Iraq where all they will do is break windows and spray-paint anti-saddam slogans, i dont think anyone would oppose that.

in fact, many of the black bloc people would probably sign up for such a program!

normal people? in san francisco?

Maybe they got the idea from those guys who dressed up like Native Americans before the threw that tea in the harbor that time.

I would draw the line at hurting anyone except maybe an over aggresive cop. But personally i would never smash anything that wasn't corprate. A corporation is not a person so i really don't see a problem.

and no we are deffinantly not communists or anything else you might think we are. I think the crowd mostly consisted of anarchists.

From France,
Thanks to the black block!

Anarchy and Peace!

"What is up with the masks?!?! How is it taking a stand if you hide? Thats not just stupid, its irresposible!"

Please Explain how covering your face is irresponsible OR stupid?

If you go to a large scale protest then you will almost certainly have your picture taken, and then it ends up in your FBI file. (Even if you are not commiting a crime; they WILL take your picture simply because you are around a "dangerous" group)

If you go to your local police station I think you are allowed to see your file, or at least you used to be able to. You may be quite surprized at how many pictures of you they have. If you wear a mask then it is harder to be identified and for them to place a photo in your file.

Also, another good reason to have a mask is you can dip it in a water/vinegar mix and breath through it. It's supposed to help you against either pepper spray or tear gas, I forget which.

Police Provocateurs in Black Masks -- How Original!
by Justin Raimondo • Monday January 20, 2003 at 12:34 PM
Justin [at] antiwar.com

Police provocateurs in black masks -- how original. Is this a fashion statement from the boys who brought us Cointelpro?

The brainless fools who let themselves be led by provocateurs deserve to be arrested for vandalism. Not just vandalizing private property, but also defacing and discrediting the larger antiwar movement. Now with all these pictures conveniently posted, it should be much easier to track them down. Easier for the organized antiwar movement to exclude them, and publicize their activities so that they are universally ostracized.

And don't bother giving me your commie bullshit about how 'private property is theft' and violence is "liberating" -- you idiots are just "anti-capitalist" versions of Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz, neoconservatives in bandannas, who think you have a license to destroy. Go fuck yourselves. And stay out of the antiwar movement: we don't need or want you.

-- Justin Raimondo
Antiwar.com


Sorry, Justin, that you're so naive. All war is economic in nature. From Israel's occupation of Palestine to the current war in Iraq, the bottom line is capital. Land, oil, you name it. Do you think your utopian libertarian capitalist solution is going to magically change human nature? Greed exists and its growth is exponential. The more people have the more they will want.

Research the term "libertarian". The term libertarian was being used in the 1800s in the socialist movement to describe those now commonly referred to as anarchists. Of course capitalists of the time correctly recognized that capitalism must have a strong central state mechanism to correctly function. There must be a police state and court system to protect property, and an army to appropriate capital. Capitalism is inherently statist and socialism, true socialism, is inherently libertarian. People can only share their resources voluntarily. Redistribution of wealth through a state mechanism, well, that occurs under capitalism all the time! That occurs every time we are taxed and our money is given to corporations.

"true socialism, is inherently libertarian"

I agree with you on this point. However, you have to concede that under "true socialism", there is some sort of economic and political decision-making capability. So, the choices are:

a) A small group of representatives.
or
b) Direct democracy

So, if you've chosen a), then you've got a democratic-republic form of government, which is inherently statist. Enforcement is required to protect the minority and to uphold the rules of the state.

If you choose b), the majority wins the day, without any "check" or "balance" to enforce fairness of the socially accepted norms of the society. If the people want capitalism, they get it. If they want socialism, they get it. If they want to throw hispanic people into ovens, they get it.

I dunno, but statism doesn't seem that bad to me. To my mind, the problem is that the state is not functioning in a way that guarantees fair access TO the state. The LAST thing I'd want is no redress of grievances, no protection of the minority.

With regards to B) direct democracy, I do not see how having representatives necessarily protects a minority. This country, the US, has a constitution that was altered in 1865 with the 14th amendment to supposedly make all people equal under the law with respect to race and ethnicity. The original constitution said that africans and indians couldn't be citizens. But so with this amendment, one would think that black people would have constitutional protections, but it was only when the majority came around to forcing a change in 1964 with the voting and civil rights acts, that there was institutional equality under the law.
Similarly, they didn't even mention that women couldn't vote in the constitution but it was kept that way until the majority forced a change - so the on-paper protection of minorities didn't really do much good, because they were just words on paper. And women actually are the majority - so it wasn't the case that they were oppressed by a misguided majority, but rather by some people with power.
Because of the lack of examples of minorities actually being protected by representative government when the powerful wish to control them, I think that direct democracy would actually be the safest bet. Representative democracy risks giving power to a small number of people who each could be corrupted. With direct democracy, one places a bet that most people are basically good and will do the right thing when given power, and that things like racism come about when the powerful pit different groups against each other. Because this is the best one can hope for in any case - Trent Lott isn't going to be the one to jump out and protect the latinos that the majority irrationally decided they want placed in ovens, but is more likely to originate the idea himself

Direct democracy doesn't have to be everyone voting on every single thing - like the Californians voting on street sign placement in Vermont. Other visions of it involve easily recallable delegates who are required to represent the majority of their constituency, and having a geographic delineation of power, where local people vote on local things, and delegates voting regionally.

The logistics of direct democracy applieded to the U.S. are just too great. You'd probably do best with an electronic system of some sort, but then that would become THE golden fleece for hackers.

i know because its my field.

i know because its doubtful that there is enough information (talking information theory here) in most captured images of masked folks to do recognition (human or computer). also the software you speak of is not really applicable to the problem you claim it can handle. also, you need to realize the level of bullshit and self-promotional bullshit that comes out of "applied" scientists. last, if what you describe was possible, getting recognized in a digital video would be the least of our problems.

i wont be more specific than that. be paranoid if you want.

but not enough to actually demonstrate it. Why not? Do you think we were born yesterday?

expertise is not something you can always demonstrate to a non-expert.

anyway, the burden of proof is on paranoia man. if you think that FRS software can do what you say it can, provide REAL, scientific, objective proof. not some moron reporter being gladhandled by a delusional and egomaniacal scientist.

i say you cant cite me a paper in a scientific journal that demonstrates a FRS getup with the performance you are claiming. if you took me up on this challenge, and put in the effort to see what folks in FRS projects are actually publishing (nessie's "article" links to a researcher index page, check out those investigators themselves), youd quickly realize that i am right.

maybe then youd be able to sleep a lot easier at night.