Mossad Exposed In Phony 'Palestinian Al Qaeda' Caper

Only idiots quote Lyndon LaRouche and his silly conspiracy theories. Face facts! LaRouche makes money selling his conspiracy theories to the slightly to the completely paranoid.

I love it when people like you who have no idea what their talking about try to slander LaRouche. You haven't even read a whole paper by LaRouche, and are just trying to sound popular, by being overheard slandering LaRouche. Visit http://www.larouchein2004.com or http://www.larouchepub.com. Tell me, what is so inaccurate? It isn't! LaRouche has one of the best intellegence services in the world and people like you who have no idea what their talking about, but just want to be overheard something that might make them popular, are the poison in Shakespeares play, Julias Ceasers "Vox Populi" or in this case, "Popular Opinon". Get a mind of yourself! Get it out of the Washington Post and CNN!!

I am not surprised by this revelation. Anyone who saw the pics from the attack in Kenya would know that the rocket launcher, bright blue, was a prop. Of course we all know that when a bomb is launched at a hotel we all pack our suitcases and carry them with us when evacuating. Most intelligent people also know that a heat seeking missile does not fly past the heat and that the pilot could never have seen it. That was one of the stupidest stunts Israel has pulled. Do I doubt that Israel was trying another ploy to get out of the Road Map to Peace? Nope, the last thing Israel wants is peace, first they want all the land from the sea to the Tigris and Iraq's oil, ALL OF IT.

Such is typical of Mossad. It's motto is: By deception we will wage war. Read former Mossad agent Victor Ostrovsky's book to see more examples. Their job is to get the tail (Israel) to wag the dog (U.S.A.). It wouldn't surpise me if they midwifed 911.

Huh?

Tell me, what does Rush Linbaugh make by selling his opinion? Does Richard Perle give away his time and effort for nothing?

Well?

Perhaps people are employed by security services to attempt to denounce these articles notice the denouncer got to this site first and he doesn't really make any argument aparrt from denouncing Larouche in general. The article was about a Palestinian investigation or am I mistaken???

The Zionists are filled with filth and hatred. The only kind of peace they dream of, is to demolish the arab countries, one after the other. They've started with Palestine, then Lebanon, recently Irak. Next Syria to be followed by the Gulf countries to ruin them as well.

First off let me state that you should trust the government only as much as they trust you, which is not at all and respect authority as much as it respects you which is also not at all. Next, Dont trust Israel, they are renowned for their dirty tricks and absolute hatred of the arabs they will use any method available to them to keep what they have stolen from the arabs and use any excuse they can to kill more arabs. For a country that has such biblical ties, it is truly the hand of satan which I find very ironic. Next, Israel has done this before.. they got caught in 1954 masquerading as egyptian terrorists in order to slow the withdrawl of british troops- http://zog.to/3/israel/TreacherousAlly.html
They bombed a number of american and british installations in egypt and killed people in the process.. Israeli's are sick bastards that will stop at nothing short of arab holocaust. This does not mean the Arabs are sweet little angels, they have their own dark history as well, but when you see the USA and Britain trying to make a good guy bad guy case out of the palestinian debacle, just laugh at them there is no good guy when it comes to the Israel conflicts, just a bunch of people dedicated to Zionist funded arab holocaust. In regards to Lyndon LaRouche.. I could never count myself as his ally, but I will point out BS when I see it.. and Israel's messages to the world are 100% BS.

could someone turn me on to an organization that is assisting palestinians? thanks

If the terrorist attack on the Israeli Arkia airliner was a "stunt", then how about denying there is such a thing as an Eiffel tower in Paris, that Augusto Pinochet never existed, or that the Mossad was behind the sinking of the Titanic: Iceberg, Goldberg... you know, they are all Jews, isn't it? Time has come to open our hearts and minds and stop hiding from reality. Israel is the one country that faces the worst and most intense terrorism onslaught against its innocent citizens, in the whole world. Ostriches wanting yo hide behind smart-ass statements ought to poner deeper: there is no guarantee that what Israelis are suffering cannot happen to other innocent people in Morocco, U.S.A., Bali, Djerba, Riyad... anywhere.

Roberto Feldmann
Santiago, Chile.

Statement by Alan Dershowitz (Harvard professor, author of 'The case for Israel', supporter of torture by Israel and the US, consistent pro-Israel supporter opposed to human rightsfor Palestinians--blames the victims shamelessly):

-"There is not a single factual error in my book. I chalenge anybody to point out one factual error and I will give him, oe even the PLO, $10,000..."

-"Israel has not killed one single Palestinian wilfully. Doing so only will hurt Israel, so why would they do that?"

These two statements reveal the sickened mind of a Zionist fanatic--in this idiot's world there is only good and bad, and no dounbt where this creep finds absolute "good"--Israel can do no wring, since such assholes believe torture is not really torture, kiling is not really killing and Israel is not really guilty of anything other than being the greatest democracy in the known universe.

Zionists will never acknowledge the stupidity of their fanatical beliefs because like all fanatics, their allegience is to the irrational belief in their moral, biological, cultural and political superiority--whats the difference between them and the Nazis? Really.

Mr. Feldman is right. It is time to open our hearts & minds --- to the suffering and human destruction not OF but rather BY the Zionists. Before I am labeled an Anti-Semite, please note that there is a great divide between Zionism & Judaism. All Jews are certainly not Zionists just as all Zionists are not Jews. I have had, & continue to have, many Jewish colleagues and educators for whom I have nothing but the greatest respect and admiration for their humanism & personal achievements.. These people are true Jews and not Zionists. True Jewish believers know that God has promised the return of Israel to the Jews but only under His terms , direction & timing. Any destruction of His creation will be accomplished only by HIm or at His discretion. The Zionists, on the other hand, are attempting to usurp their God's power & will evidently stop at nothing to achieve their hegemonistic goals at entirely their own, & certainly not their God's direction. After all, one would surmise, who could possibly believe in a God that would condone such senseless destruction of His "creation in his own image"? Yet, sadly, there are so many of us from different faiths that appear to believe in just such a "Creator" and continue to commit heinous atrocities in His name.

I must confess that I was, before, extremely pro-zionistic and my patriotism misguided purely out of my ignorance of the actual events that have transpired in the Middle East as well as the United States where I am witnessing, with increasing alarm, the incredible Zionist (read: NOT JEWISH) control over US Foreign Policy. I am glad that I am now living in an age of self-enlightenment through the vast domain of the Internet and have a better understanding of world events & government actions unbiased by propoganda & revisionist history. And, No, I am not a conspiracy theorist, I do not believe in aliens, I am not a firm adherent to any organized religion, and certainly do not believe everything I read without logical & rational corroboration. I do, however, believe strongly in the good of humanity and continue to have hope for the human race to unite in the creation of a world without geographical borders, one that is no longer controlled by old men & women who cause so much death and destruction of the dreams of the young by perpetuating wars in vain attempts to fulfil their crazed fantasies.

FIrst of all, those of you making ABSURD generalizations about "the zionists" are just making yourselves look foolish. WHo are "THE ZIONISTS?" The average person who supports zionism, and is therefore a zionist, is not particularly political, and just your average person who simply supports the existence of israel as a jewish homeland.

Perhaps you're referring to some radical sub-sect of "zionists," in which case you should consider naming exactly who you are talking about.

quote:
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and just your average person who simply supports the existence of israel as a jewish homeland.
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1919 King-Crane Commission Report:
==========================================
...
For "a national home for the Jewish people" is not equivalent to making Palestine into a Jewish State; nor can the erection of such a Jewish State be accomplished without the gravest trespass upon the "civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine." The fact came out repeatedly in the Commission's conference with Jewish representatives, that the Zionists looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the present non-Jewish inhabitants of Palestine, by various forms of purchase.
[...]

If...the wishes of Palestine's population are to be decisive as to what is to be done with Palestine, then it is to be remembered that the non-Jewish population of Palestine-nearly nine tenths of the whole-are emphatically against the entire Zionist program.
[...]

No British officer, consulted by the Commissioners, believed that the Zionist program could be carried out except by force of arms. The officers generally thought that a force of not less than 50,000 soldiers would be required even to initiate the program. That of itself is evidence of a strong sense of the injustice of the Zionist program, on the part of the non-Jewish populations of Palestine and Syria. Decisions, requiring armies to carry out, are sometimes necessary, but they are surely not gratuitously to be taken in the interests of a serious injustice. For the initial claim, often submitted by Zionist representatives, that they have a "right" to Palestine, based on an occupation of 2,000 years ago, can hardly be seriously considered.
http://raven.cc.ukans.edu/%7Ekansite/ww_one/docs/kncr.htm
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quote:
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and just your average person who simply supports the existence of israel as a jewish homeland.
====================

FYI, I firmly support the existence of Israel as a Jewish homeland. I equally support the comcoittant establishment of a homeland for the Palestenians whose only crime is not having had the political wisdom to formally establish a nation for themselves in the land they have lived for centuries, in the days of yore before being usurped into the British Empire & now into Israel. But I DO NOT support one community's quest for liberty or empire at the grave risk of subjugating another community into annihilation. The Holocaust is a prime example of such an heinous act and which was rightly condemned and halted by the world at large.

Since it's inception, religion (in any organzed form) has been a powerful driving force in causing so much death and destruction perpetrated in "God's name". I often wonder how God must feel about this. I also wonder when we will outgrow this "My God can lick your God" phase.

Finally, it is ironic that so many of us can easily believe that WMDs have been found in Iraq but continue to deny the divide between Judaism & Zionism. I believe that once you begin to accept this divide it is easy to seperate the Zionists from the true advocates of Judaism.

Well, Ben, this long-tirade is the sterotypical response to any one who dares to question the Zionist political ideology. Infact this is becoming more & more of a Cliche. This marketing ploy, as I see it, proceeds as follows:

#1. Don't allow the seperation of Zionioism from Judaism. That way you cloud the issue by labeling your detractors anti-semitics.
Response: Accusing your detractors of being religious bigots is far more effective than letting the true facts be known; that they merely do not share your political ideology. Zionism is, after all, nothing more than a political ideology disguised in religious garb.

#2. Accuse your detractors of being Muslim lovers and/or Jew haters.
Response: Nothing more to add here. I am sure the majority of readers on this board are merely on the side of justice and have no particular hate for either religiousgroup. The key issue here is TOLERANCE,
not extremes of emotion.

3. Emphasize that all Muslims (as well as those that that do not support your political cause) are evil Jew
& Christian haters who are out to destroy the non-muslim world. Emphazide their short-comings and vile acts so that people will see them as sub-humans who are like "cockroaches" that must be destroyed.
Response: Muslims, Christians, heck, all if not most organized religions, continue to commit or have commited at some point in their existence, atrocities against other groups of people. As a Christian (and probably not a very good one you might say), growing up amongst muslims, I know that I could never adhere to or agree with many of their extreme views particularly in regard to women's rights & forcing their religious views and laws on non-muslims, but that does not imply that I would deny them the right to co-exist.

#4. Subtly discredit your detractor with diatribe by emphasizing "we fucking crazed brain-washed idiots" when what you really mean is "you fucking crazed brain-washed idiots."
Response: Real Smart!!!

# 5. Repeatedly & selectively quote history to favor your cause, and then, when you have convinced enough people, you can accuse your detractors of being revisionists.
Response: Post-WWII Israel did not come to exist as the result of any Mid-East war. It was granted to the Jews by Britain upon termination of their mandate in 1948 and was recognized by the UN in the same year. Similarly, the partition of Indian & Pakistan was sanctioned by the British at the time of independence.
The Israelis and Palestinians have an EQUAL right to co-exist in this "sliver of Desert". Hey, I am originally from India. Maybe I should agree with you on the Pakistan issue. But, just because a few Pakistanis have commited acts of terrorism does not subject the entire state to Terrorist status. And if you think that Pakistan is harboring Osama Bin Ladin, US forces have entered into Pakistan and arrested terrorists there before at the invitation and support of the Pakistan Govt. Do you really believe it is that difficult for the US Government to find this monster if they are truly seeking him out?
Motive? Keep the monster alive at all costs so that his legend does not die with him. After all he has done so much to further the War on Terrorism and it's fall-outs.

#6. Reaffirm the profound hatred & discrimination the Jews have had to overcome throughout modern history.
Response: There is no doubt in my mind that there is much truth to this and the sentiment is certainly not lost on us. However, it is ironic those who have suffered so much for so long would not only subjugate another group to the same fate but would also willfully use the very suffering they have long decried as justification to do so. Now let me say that
what the Palestenian's are enduring at the hands of their rulers do not yet begin to compare to the magnitude of the suffering inflicted on the Jews by the Nazis. Does that justify this behaviour, then? Are they planning to stop and reconsider this maddness only when the Palestenians approach but don't quite reach the bar of your suffering? The Jews rightly deserve our empathy for the suffering and discrimination they have long endured but the Zionists should not expect the same emotion when they use the tortured as a crutch to justify their acts of torture.

#7. Claim that anyone who does not agree with Israel's policy is simply denying Israel's right to existence and self-governance.
Response: Lies, more lies, and damn lies - we would all like to see an independent Jewish nation as much as we would like to see a Palestinian nation. When that happens, hopefully the world may finally have a much more lasting peace than we have seen over the past century. I am, however, afraid that both the Israeli & Palestinian political leaders and much of much of they citizenry have seen so much violence and hatred in their lifetime that they will have profound difficulties co-existing peacefully. Do you really want the future generations of Israelis and Palestinians to live in
the same distorted and tortured world as current and past generations have.

#8. Claim that while atrocities are being committed in many nations all around the world, Israel is being singled out by your detractors.
Response: I, as I'm certain most if not all readers on this board, decry any and all violations against human rights no matter where they arise or who perpetrates them. This certainly includes the acts of terrorists and suicide bombers who are, in a similar vein, using religion as an excuse to murder innocent people and jeopardize the the road to peace. This particular discussion, however, is focused on the Israeli government's attempts at subterfuge to escalate military action in the mid-east in this "anti-terrorist" environment. What? Conspiracy theory you say? No precedence you say? Well, flashback to the Lavon Affair.

#9. Brand your detractors as Leftists & liberals.
Response: It appears that these are labels being thrown around to desecrate anyone who does not agree with "conventional" views. Interestingly, I believe I am neither a rightist or a leftist, liberal nor conservative since I most often tend to occupy the middle of the road in conservative and liberal issues alike. But if being on the side of justice & equality for all, wishing for a better life for our progeny, respecting the environment for future generations to
enjoy, and preventing our children for paying dearly for the sins of their fathers, then I would be honored to don these labels.

Well, Ben, I guess I am equally guilty of being long-winded. Mea Culpa.

Excellent rebuttal, Dr. Vijay. I am waiting for Ben's response. But you 2 can both save your breaths and visit the mother of all rebuttals to Ben's arguments: http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com . I highly recommend it to all readers of this page. Spread the word about that site if u like it. Thank u.

We must support Zionism at all costs!
Israel must always be happy, regardless of how many Palestinian civilians are killed, made homeless, tortured or deprived of food in the process!
Remeber, according to the Zionist definition of antisemitism, you MUST agree with this and you MUST NOT oppose our apartheid policies or YOU ARE ANTISEMITES!!!
Israel needs your help to keep its' empire going! We need your tax dollars! Your politicians' support! Your soldiers!
Give it to us, and you will be blessed by Ariel Sharon!
Stay away from antizionist organizations like Amnesty International, B'tselem, and Jews Against The Occupation! Stay away especially from Jews who belong to these organizations! Not only are they not Zionists, they are actually real Jews who know what Judaism really means and how we Zionists love to pervert it! They oppose us! They help the Palestinians! They know the truth! They will try to tell you the truth!
Do not listen you them! You do not need to know the truth! You need to support Israel!

Ein Reich, ein volk, ein fuhrer!
Heil Ariel Sharon!

- A concerned Zionist

Visit and support http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com, and please post your feedback here.

lets come to our senses for once, enough with this religious shit about jews and zion whatever. your the common product of an organized religion feeding you filth. with organized religions and political powers this world degrades. i say we all get high and enjoy life, let our governments play whatever games they want, for every action there is an equal and opposite sum, what goes around comes around. get stoned and walk into the light, just listen to bob marley, youll understand

To the Zionist who wrote:"As if everyone on earth who supports israel's very existence (and is therefore a zionist) has hidden evil motives to also wipe out arab countries. Yeah. Right. I'm sure the average jewish zionist in nyc dreams of that, as if somehow that makes the least bit of difference to them."

Reply: Your average Jewish Zionist in NYC probably isn't concerned about the crimes that Israel, Zionists and the neocons are perpetuating against the Arabs, most relentlessly, against the Palestinians. Therefore your average Jewish Zionist in NYC is complicit by their silence, just like your average American citizen who has become aware of what's happening and doesn't care.

Unfortunately alot of Americans are still in the dark about the truth about racist, apartheid Israel, so they are made into unwitting accomplices by the Zionists and neocons, etc.

By the way, I am positive that Israel is responsible for the deaths of the 3 American envoys in Gaza. No Palestinian group has claimed responsibility for it, and they almost always do. Israel has a long record of covert operations, and never confesses unless caught red-handed, and even then calls it a "tragic accident" as in the USS Liberty and the death of peace activist Rachel Corrie for examples. Also it was done within view of Israeli watchtowers, who undoubtably detonated the bomb just so as they watched. And of course, that highly techical kind of bombing is not typical of Palestinian bombers. It has Israel's fingerprints all over it. They didn't want the Palestinian scholars to go out into the world to be ambassadors for the Palestinian cause.

Windy Out Wendy: "yammity yammity yammity alot of Americans are still in the dark about the truth about racist, apartheid Israel, so they are made into unwitting accomplices by the Zionists yammity yammity yammity"

There's also the other possibility, Windy Out Wendy -- that is, a lot of Americans are appalled by the self-defeating use of terror tactics used by the Palestinians, with the clear approval of their "leader," Yassir Arafat, and don't feel any particular need to force Israel to create the Republic of Beltbombistan literally a stone's throw from its capital city.

Let the Palestinians clean up their act, let their leaders finally get over their dream of destroying Israel, and you'll be amazed at how quickly they can get the self-determined state of Palestine. Let them continue to try to destroy Israel, either militarily or diplomatically, and they will continue to end up with bupkes.

You'd think they'd have figgered that out by now. Unfortunately, they've got two big problems: a leader that makes it clear daily that he'd rather be the absolute dictator of a stateless people than risk getting voted out in a free state of Palestine, and a collection of international Islamist groups like Hamas and the al-Aksa Martyr's Brigade and Islamic Jihad who make no secret that they much prefer to see the streets run red with Jewish blood than any sort of solution that allows for any kind of Jewish sovereignty in a peaceful world.

Windy Out Wendy: "yammity yammity yammity I am positive that Israel yammity yammity"

I can't think of many phrases that mean less in the real world than when Windy Out Wendy sez "I am positive that."

@%<

Which crimes have you not complained about today?
Rembmber according to your logic you are complicit by your silence.
I expect killing in the congo and in zimbabweare a couple of examples of the things you have declared yourself guilty of. But this is far from a complete lists.

"...professing themselves to be wise, they became fools..."


Think twice before you speak against "God's Chosen People"!! ...Israel is God's Chosen!!


...After you pass through death's door - you will be held accountable for what you say about Israel and her people.

For those of you who don't know the definition of "Zionism".....  It simply means that the Israeli People - (Jewish People), have the Right To Return to their Homeland - (Israel).

Did you know that the first victim of 9/11 was an Israeli Citizen, named Daniel Lewin.

Daniel, a member of Israel's elite commando unit - Sayeret Mat'kai, was murdered aboard Flight 11 - while attempting to prevent the hijackers from gaining entery to the cockpit.

Flight 11 was the first of the two aircraft that struck the World Trade Center Towers on the morning of September 11th, 2001. It crashed into the North Tower at 8:46 a.m. Eastern Time.

Daniel Lewin - an Israeli Citizen - gave his life, trying to save the lives of others - Mostly American!! ...In my book - that makes him a hero.

If you would like to read the full story, the URL is http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=13560


Are You Still Anti-Israeli?? ...Then You're A FOOL!!



==========

Do a Google search on 911 victims by nationality.

You will see that only ONE Israeli was killed, a janitor, who was in the building.

Two other Israelis who were killed were on the planes that went into the WTC.

Also do a Google search on "Odigo 9-11 warned of attacks World Trade Center" or something like that--- as well as check out http://www.whatreallyhappened.com.

You will see that it was confirmed even in the Israeli newspaper the Ha'aretz that two hours before the planes hit the WTC, that e-mails to the Israeli company Odigo's office in the WTC told them to vacate the building because there would be a hit.

Stop denying it- Israel had fore-knowledge of 9-11 and refused to warn the US about it, and in fact, they rejoiced because they figured the US would then join in even deeper in Israel's "war on terror", ie., anyone who resists Zionist domination.

You can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all the people all of the time. The times they are a-changing.

I think you may have noticed that alot of people, not only Palestinians, are not at all comfortable with Zionist domination.

To answer the question what is Zionism? Zionism has always from day one of its creation in around the late 1880s has always embraced ethnic cleansing and apartheid as the means to create and maintain a Jewish state in what was once a multi-cultural land of Palestine, where people of all religions and races lived together in relative harmony until the racist Zionists showed up on the scene.

Zionism has its tentacles in the US government, shaping US foreign policy to accommodate Israel's racist policies and expansionist agenda. It is very costly to the US in terms of both tax dollars, international credibility and international good will. Now that the Zionist neocons have totally taken over our foreign policy, the US has alienated the entire world with it's arrogant, aggressive, self-serving, hypocritical actions, especially with regards to the Middle East and the war on Iraq and the US's unconditional support of the apartheid state of Israel.

Try following your sources back further than the nearest website. The fact that it is published on the web doesn't make it true.

Windy Out Wendy, garbling a Lincoln quote: "You can fool some of the people some of the time"

Or, if you're Wendy Campbell, you can fool _yourself_ all of the time.

@%<

I am taking the liberty to plagiarize some quotations from the "Jews against Zionism" website, pointed out to me by Truth in an earlier post (Thank you Truth). I am not surprised that the Zionists can only accuse them of not being real Jews since they cannot label them anti-semites. Since the information is all apparently factual and provided by informed Jews (read: Not Zionists), there is very little if any reponse in the form of a valid rebuttal not unlike the many posts here.

*BEGIN QUOTATIONS*

"The Holy Land was given to the Jewish people on the condition that they observe the Torah and its commandments. When they failed to do this, their sovereignty over the land was taken from them, and they went into exile. From that time, we are prohibited by the Torah with a very grave prohibition to establish a Jewish independent sovereignty in the Holy Land or anywhere throughout the world. Rather, we are obligated to be loyal to the nations under whose protection we dwell."

"The Talmud explains That we have been foresworn, by three strong oaths, not to ascend to the Holy Land as a group using
force, not to rebel against the governments of countries in which we live, and not by our sins, to prolong the coming of moshiach; as is written in Tractate Kesubos 111a."

“Even if the nations wanted to kill the Jews with terrible torture, the Jews are forbidden to change the applicability of
the Oaths. This is relevant to every one of these oaths and must be understood.” Therefore, not only is it forbidden to
leave the Exile even with the permission of the nations, but even if they force the Jewish People to do so under pain of
death, it is forbidden to violate these Oaths in the same way it is required to give up one’s life rather than accept
another religion."

"Immediately at the founding of the Zionist movement, masses of Jews under the leadership of their Rabbis, launched a heavy battle against Zionism. Their attack was directed not only at the non-religious Zionist idea, but rather, primarily at its opposition to the Torah-ordained path that Jewry must follow while in exile. As such, the Zionists incited the nations of the world, demanding political sovereignty over the Holy Land while remaining oblivious to the resentment this would arouse In the Palestinian Arabs, the land's veteran inhabitants. As stated, the leaders of Orthodox Jewry vehemently opposed the movement with all force."

and finally,

"The Zionists refused to heed the voice of the Rabbis and Torah authority. They persisted in their ways until they succeeded in influencing the British government to issue the Balfour Declaration concerning the "establishment of a national home for the Jews in the land of Israel." To our great sorrow, from that point on began the deterioration of the good relations between the Jews and the Arab inhabitants of the land. This occurred because the Arab people understood that the Zionists wished to seize rulership from them. In addition, the Arab people had suspicions as if the Jewish people wished to seize control of the Temple Mount and other similar sites. Matters worsened as a result."

*END OF QUOTES*
Copied without permission from: http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/index.html

The King-Crane Commission Report posted by a earlier responder also makes a very interesting read. Evidently, King and Crane were visionaries who, way back in 1919, accurately foresaw the present disastrous fall-out of the Balfour Declaration which I may point out is illegal since, in accordance with international law, the British did not truly own the land to give, which is ironically not unlike out current selling of Iraq's assets.

http://raven.cc.ukans.edu/%7Ekansite/ww_one/docs/kncr.htm

There are many god-fearing decent jews out there who understand that what is going on in Israel is contrary to the teachings of the Talmud. They understand that the Zionist attempt to forcibly occupy the Holy Land places Jewry at risk for further prolonging God's own plan to return the Jews to the Promised Land by betraying his commandment. Unfortunately these good people are over-shadowed by the power & wealth of the Zionists. For those of you who repeatedly ask, this is the key difference between a Jew and a Zionist.

I firmly believe that the more people are made aware of the suffering being inflicted on innocent Jews & especially the Palestinians in Israel by the Israeli Govt & Zionists (who truly don't deserve to be called Jews since they are the one's violating the Talmud's teachings), the sooner this ungodly mayhem will end. Perhaps we should place the anti-semite label on the Zionists where it may rightly belong.

Finally, if the Zionists are indeed the chosen people, then prove it by your actions and show your love and tolerance for all God's creation. If on the other hand, the God of the Chosen People has given the Zionists the license and blessing to indiscriminately kill his "Gentile" creation merely for "Land-Grab", then be forthright in admitting this so that the rest of the civilized world may better comprehend your motives for justifying so much human destruction when you yourselves have not forgotten that only 50 odd years ago, the jews were the unfortunate victims of a another violent political faction that proclaimed themselves to be the "Chosen" Master Race.

QUOTE Daniel Lewin - an Israeli Citizen - gave his life, trying to save the lives of others - Mostly American!! ...In my book - that makes him a hero. "Are You Still Anti-Israeli?? ...Then You're A FOOL!! " END QUOTE Daniel Lewin is indeed a Hero regardless of his national identity or regligious bent. But if you wish to make his singular heroic sacrifice an Israeli act of Heroism, then remember that, as God's chosen people, you will be judged not by your good deed's but by your sins. Let me ask you a poignant question - "Do you believe that Rachel Corrie is a hero too? Ah, well, I am a great and sublime fool. But then I am God's fool, and all His work must be contemplated with respect. ~ Mark Twain

"cannot label them anti-semites"
A jew can be an antisemite for example if hitler was part jewish (some say he was) that would in no way make hitler less of an antisemite (or do you think it would?).
I dont know about what the torah says on this but I am also wondering why quoting from the torah would hold any water for a non jewish person. If Israel is a secular state that doesnt flick through the torah every time it makes a decision you should presumably take that to be a GOOD thing.

Alas, so typical. Take two or three sentences where you can potentially find a hole or two and harp on those while ignoring the rest of the facts. But let's do discuss your illogic.

1. I did not imply that a Jew cannot be an anti-semite. Merely that it would not be the best defense for the Zionists to effectively use the label on fellow Jews who obviously have no hidden agenda or foreeseeable gain other than to follow the teachings of their religion.

2. If Israel is indeed a secular state then please explain why:

- Everyone cites validity to Israel's claim that this land that is rightfully theirs since it was given to the Jews by God as his chosen people. Why else would they have any claim to the land when Jews accounted for only 10 percent of the population in Palestine at the time of the Balfour declaration (Read the King-Crane declaration for details).

- Israeli citizens are required to carry ID cards on them at all times which specify whether they are Jewish or non-Jewish.

- Israeli police are required to display identification numbers which are coded to show if they are Jewish or non-Jewish.

- Police can tell from a driver's license if the bearer is Jewish or non-Jewish: Jews renews on the 15th of the month, non-Jews on the 1st. N. Dacey, "Democracy" in Israel, p. 47.

- Jews in Israel are forbidden by a religious law, approved by the State, from marrying non-Jews. Tekiner, Anti Zionism: Analytical Reflections, p.74.

- All Jewish elementary schools, secular and religious, have changed the plus sign in math books to an inverted 'T', because the plus sign looked too much like the Christian cross. Israel Shahak, Chairman, Israeli League for Human
and Civil Rights, Al Fajr, October 1117, 1981.

- For a Jew to hire a non-Jew to work on Jewish owned land is illegal and punishable by fines.

- Approximately 50% of the non-Jewish sectors in Israel have no legal existence, which means they are not entitled to a sewage system, electricity, nor connection with the national water carrier, and any building done in these communities is considered illegal and subject to demolition. The Other Front, 4, April 1990.

- Non-Jews in Israel, far more than Jews, have their telephones tapped and their mail "stopped, opened and even destroyed." U.S. State Department's 1989 Country Reports on Human Rights.

- Israel's non-Jewish press is censored more strictly than its Hebrew language press. U.S. State Department's 1989 Country Reports on Human Rights.

- In occupied Palestine, exclusive of East Jerusalem, automobile license plates issued to non-Jews are different from those issued to Jews; also non-Jewish operated taxis are clearly distinguished from Jewish operated taxis. N. Dacey, "Democracy" in Israel, p. 47.

- Israel's discrimination against non-Jews touches all Americans in that Zionism distinguishes among Americans themselves, saying to some, who happen to be Jewish, that it will give them automatic citizenship, along with a host of social benefits, while to all other Americans these rights and benefits are denied precisely because they are non-Jews who nevertheless, are obligated to contibute their tax dollars to Israel's weapons of mass destruction by the American Government's largesse toward Israel to the tune of 80-90 billion $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ that we know of.

- 1950. Israel enacted the Law of Return, granting all Jews anywhere in the world, and only Jews, the right to immigrate to Israel, on the grounds that they are returning to their own state. Subsequent Israeli governments must swear to uphold this Basic Law.

- 1950. Israel enacted the Development Authority Law, granting the Jewish National Fund authority over 92% of the land. By means of a "Land Covenant", all this property, most of it expropriated from Palestinians, now becomes the "inalienable property" of the Jewish people worldwide, meaning non-Jews can never buy any of it, never rent any of it, nor even be employed on any of it.

- 1952 Israel enacted the Citizenship/Jewish Nationality Law, granting every Jew in the world, and only Jews, the status both of Israeli citizenship and Jewish nationality as soon as they step foot on Israeli soil. This distinction between citizenship and nationality, unique to the Zionist state, becomes the legal basis for state sanctioned discrimination, whereby only Jewish nationals are eligible for many of the privileges and services provided by the state or by its semi-governmental Zionist organizations.

- 1952. Israel enacted the World Zionist Organization/ Jewish Agency (Status) Law, empowering the Organization/Agency with "the development and settlement of the country, the absorption of (Jewish) immigrants from the Diaspora and the coordination of the activities in Israel of Jewish institutions and organizations active in those fields." This makes hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens of non-Jewish nationality, most of whom are native Palestinians, ineligible by law for "nationality" benefits, meaning they cannot work on "national" land, and cannot participate in "national" housing,
educational, or agricultural benefits.

- June 1967. Israel placed newly occupied territories under military rule, making native Palestinians, but not Jews who begin settling there, subject to arbitrary arrest and imprisonment, deportation and collective punishment.

- August 1967. Israel enacted the Agricultural Settlement Law banning Israeli citizens of non-Jewish nationality from working on Jewish National Fund lands, thus denying employment to thousands of Palestinians who in the 50's and early
60's had returned to work on their expropriated lands as agricultural hands, lessees or sharecroppers.

- 1970. Israel amended its Law of Return by defining 'Jew' to mean a person born of a Jewish mother or one who converts to Judaism and is not a member of another religion. Law effectively equates 'religion' and 'Jewish nationality',
clearly bringing it within the definition of Racism set forth in UN Resolution

- 1970. Israel amended the Discharged Soldiers Act of 1949 so that the relatively small number of Jewish nationals who are exempt from military service can receive all the benefits tied to military service, such as school, housing, welfare and job entitlements, benefits denied the 98% of Israeli citizens of non-Jewish nationality, most of whom are native Palestinians.

- December 25,1989. Israel's High Court of Justice ruled that a Jew who converts to the Jews for Jesus sect is no longer a Jew, and hence is no longer eligible for Jewish nationality/citizenship benefits. Ruling confirms Israel's legal discrimination based on the equation of one's nationality with one's religion.

- 60% of young Jews prefer a greater land of Israel to human rights, 61% oppose giving Arabs in the territories equal rights, and 67% support encouraging Palestinians to emigrate. Factors listed by respondents as injurious to Zionism were:
returning land for peace, mixed residence of Jews and Arabs, and social contacts between Jews and Arabs. 89% or respondents called themselves Zionists. Poll conducted in Israel by Guttman Institute, September 1990. Reported by the
American Israeli Civil Liberties Coalition, Spring 1991

- "The essence of a Jewish state is to give preeminence to Jews as Jews. Anyone who asks, in the name of democracy, for equality to all its citizens Jews and Arabs must be rejected as one who negates the existence of the Israeli
state as the state of the Jewish people." An Israeli High Court Judge declares on January 5, 1990. From Israeli daily
Ha'aretz, cited in News From Within, April 3, 1991

- April 25, 1990. Israel's Minister of Housing, David Levy, admitted that his Ministry secretly provided $1.8 million for Jewish settlers to move into the Christian Quarter of Jerusalem,. The U.S. State Department calls Israel's
financing of the settlers moves "deeply disturbing." The New York Times, April 25, 1990.

- September 1985. U.S. Congressman George Crockett, after visiting the Israeli West Bank, compared living conditions there with those of South African blacks and concludes that the West Bank is an instance of apartheid that no one in the U.S. is talking about. Press Release, September 13, 1985.

- February 1990. The U.S. State Department for the first time in its annual Country Reports on Human Rights Practices lists a special category on Israel's "Discrimination Based on Race, Sex, Religion, Language, or Social Status."
Over 15 areas of discrimination by Jews against non-Jews are listed. See 1989 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices.

Is this your definition of a secular state?

I am sure many subsequent posts will label me an Anti-semite of the worst possible kind. But I have attempted to provide nothing but facts and have not made a single opinion that demonstrates any ill-will whatsoever against Jews for I strive to hold no such opinions against any race or creed. It is against the Zionists and their murderous double standards that concern me. I do not consider the Zionists true Jews regardless of what your definition of Zionism is. After you pass through death's door, your God may hold you accountable for what you say about Israel and her Zionists. I believe that my God will hold me accountable for what I have done to or for my fellow man - Jew or Gentile.

I would be obligated if any one could point out any errors in this post for my enlightment since some of the law cited above may have changed, misrepresented or have been annulled, as well as possible typos (I do not have the time to parse this post). What I do ask is that you have the courtesy to refrain from displays of anger, resentment and derogatory remarks for it not only makes your post disingenuous but more importantly adds insult to injury toward those who are dying and suffering at the expense of self-preserving agendas of the few tyrants who control their miserable destinies.

"I have no color prejudices nor caste prejudices nor creed prejudices. All I care to know is that a man is a human being, and that is enough for me; he can't be any worse."

>> Alas, so typical. Take two or three sentences where you can potentially find a hole or two and harp on those while ignoring the rest of the facts.

-- A chain requires only one flaw for it all to fall to the ground.

1. Jews who obviously have no hidden agenda or foreeseeable gain other than to follow the teachings of their religion.

- obviously eh? heh

>> 2. If Israel is indeed a secular state then please explain why:- Everyone cites validity to Israel's claim that this land that is rightfully theirs since it was given to the Jews by God as his chosen people.

- They do? I think you have a problem with this "everybody" word.

> Why else would they have any claim to the land when Jews accounted for only 10 percent of the population in Palestine at the time of the Balfour declaration (Read the King-Crane declaration for details).

- irrelevant. NOW they account for the VAST majority of people. You are doing exactly what you hate the jews for doing looking back to an arbitrary time in history and saying "they they owned the land then give it back to them". how far back sould someone go? 50 years 2000 years? 30,000 years?

-- lets see if I have this right.....israel uses an upside down T because they dont like the plus sign..
have you been using dope man? And "jews cann't hire non jews" again your kidding me what neo-nazi sites have you been visiting?

Here is another interesting one

>> 60% of young Jews prefer a greater land of Israel to human rights, 61% oppose giving Arabs in the territories equal rights, and 67% support encouraging Palestinians to emigrate.

have you seen the palistinian surveys? Dont make me have to break out the statistics it is not pretty and it will just make people on here not like the palistinians. Surveys have shown regularly that the palistinians are MORE radical than the israelis by a large degree so dont bring up some stupid complain that israeli youth are radical without the matching statistics..

>> But I have attempted to provide nothing but facts

Unfortunately in your rush to "collect facts" you collect racist propoganda (whether you are racist or not). First it is one sided some of it is rubish some if it is out of context some if it is true and a problem but not as big a problem that you make out (the old trick of mixing truth and lies).

-OK there is some discrimination in israel just like in the USA - i.e. if you compare a black man with a black purse he is probably going to look brown - and it probably used to be worse particularly jsut after israel was formed...
-- the right of return is obviously discriminatory in its own way (although since I dont have an urge to go to israel and get myself blown up it doesn't bother me, and anyway all countries immigration laws are biased in some way). there is the recent law that applies to palistinian families of jews and a few technical rights as well as being forced to put your religion on a card.
Most of these are chicken feed next to what the surrounding countries do or many other countries around the world maybe even most of the countries. Basicallly speaking israelis are protected by the normal sort of equal human rights laws.

This article appeared in the American Free Press magazine whose publisher was once a member of a white supremist group and in an admitted Nazi sympathizer. That an article by this facist magazine fits in so well with other IMC ideology is really, really telling

It's not what American Free Press says, either.

Here's what the American Free Press search engine says:

Find ALL words:  Michele Steinberg

No documents found relating to your query.
Try to widen your search and enter more words related to your topic.
Hint: Searches are wider for ANY words rather than ALL or EXACT PHRASE.

now that you've been caught lying through the teeth, do you still expect anybody to believe anything else you say?

HA! HA! HA! The joke's on you X. This is such a pathetic accusation that only goes to prove that people like you would stop at nothing to discredit those who do not share your ideology, including making up bold-faced lies. See my earlier post under "Response" by Vijay Gotti for my summary of some of the effete tactics that continue to be used over and over again against anyone who dares to differ on this subject. The sad irony is that all you do is propogate lies and accusations to discredit your detractors rather than debating your views with facts and references as I am attempting to do.

1. In the first place this article was penned by me, yesterday, after reading some of the other posts on this site. I have taken the license to copy and paste some quotations from reliable websites and documents which are for the most part backed by references and for the few "bricks" pointed out by Scottie above, see my response that follows.

2. I challenge you to find a similar article written in any other publication (except for the individual quotations which you will find all over the net with a minimum of effort) and provide a LINK to the site(s).

3. If the American Free Press Magazine has the same or similar article in one of their publications, please alert them so that they can sue me for plagiarization. Ironically, I hadn't even heard of the American Free Press before your post.

4. AND, Now for the kicker:

My roots are from India as I mentioned in my previous post referenced above. So if I had the misfortune of being in Nazi Germany (which was well before my birth in any case), then I would be walking around with a concentration camp ID number on my body if I managed to survive since I obviously could not pass for a member of Hitler's Master Race. So tell me X, what the hell would I be doing reading Pro-Nazi publications when they would probably not even give me a subscription. But if you continue to insist on the veracity of your accusation, then give all the readers at this site a proper reference to the particular publication so that they can all verify who is telling the truth. Think about it, if you could prove this then I would be too ashamed to continue to expose your text-book propoganda on this board and you would have free rein to misrepresent your dastardly views.

By the way X, what did you think about Haley Barbour's association with a Nazi group. And what the hell is IMC? If you are referring to IndyMedia, be thankful that they have provided you with a site where you can safely post your lies and innuendos anonymously.

Clever liars give details, but the cleverest don't.

-- A chain requires only one flaw for it all to fall to the ground.

RESPONSE: True. But a building can lose many of it's bricks but still stand tall as long as it's foundation and pillars are intact. I offer you a building and you view it as a chain - that is the problem with an ill-chosen analogy. Besides it is quite obvious that your points in your original quote are mere bricks.


-- obviously eh? heh

RESPONSE: At least take the trouble to look at the "Jews against Zionism" website and try to glean what ulterior motive(s) they could be harboring and educate us ignorant bigots. Big surprise that you have not challenged any of the quotations from the site. I confess to not having read the Talmud or the Torah and therefore took the quotes directly from the site. Would really love to hear your interpretations though. But then you seem to be more intent on merely pulling out bricks rather than foundations and pillars.


-- They do? I think you have a problem with this "everybody" word.

RESPONSE: I stand corrected. I should have used the word "propogandists" rather than "everyone". My bad. But you haven't answered the question yet though.


-- irrelevant. NOW they account for the VAST majority of people. You are doing exactly what you hate the jews for doing looking back to an arbitrary time in history and saying "they they owned the land then give it back to them". how far back sould someone go? 50 years 2000 years? 30,000 years?

RESPONSE: Irrelevant!!!. And you ask me if I'm using dope!!! The end does not always justify the means when it leads to the massive loss of life and liberty. But I guess for you that's okay when "inferior Gentiles" sacrifice their lives for the chosen ones. Ten percent of the population killing and driving 80 percent of the population from the land they have lived in for over two centuries and you call it irrelevant. I wonder what your reaction would be if islamic radicals came into your neighborhood, forced all you good people out and brought in their cronies to occupy your homes. Would that become irrelevant to you when the last of the previous owners are forced out of their homes?

How far back should someone go? How about to the time of the Balfour Declaration when the palestinians constituted 80% of the population, Jews 10% and Christian sects 10%. Currently jews comprise ~50.5% of Israel's population (source NewsMax).


-- lets see if I have this right.....israel uses an upside down T because they dont like the plus sign..
have you been using dope man? And "jews cann't hire non jews" again your kidding me what neo-nazi sites have you been visiting?

RESPONSE: http://www.ety.com/HRP/jewishstudies/spittingoncross.htm

Visit this site for the full statement from Professor Israel Shahak, a prominent Israeli academic, founder of Israel's Human Rights League and the author of 'Jewish History, Jewish Religion --The Weight of Three Thousand Years'. You will see that the dope I am using is called "Reality Bites". You will also see that truth is indeed stranger than fiction if you do your research rather that shoot from the hip. But then, I found this hard to believe too.

As far as jews hiring non-jews, the key words were "on Jewish land" which you have conveniently omitted.

As Prime Minister Levi Eshkol declared to the Knesset (Israelj Parliament) upon proposing that the state of Israel adopt the J.N.F.’s exclusive land policies: "The principle established as the basis of the Jewjsh National Fund ... will be established as a principle applying to state lands." [69b]

The Jewish National Fund is explicit on this point. It declared in J.N.F. Report 6:

Following an agreement between the government of Israel and the J.N.F., the Knesset in 1960 enacted the Basic Law: Israel-Lands whjch gives legal effect to the ancient tradition of ownership of the land in perpetuity by the Jewish people - the principle on which the J.N.F. was founded. The same law extends that principle to the bulk of Israel’s state domains. [69c]

Any relationship to this land was governed by the following condition spelled out in all leases pertaining to property:

The lessee must be Jewish and must agree to execute all works connected with the cultivation of the holding only with Jewish labor. [70]

The consequence is that land cannot be leased to a non-Jew, nor can the lease be subleased, sold, mortgaged, given or bequeathed to a non-Jew. Non-Jews cannot be employed on the land nor in any work connected with cultivation. If these conditions are violated both fines and the abrogation of the lease, without any compensation, ensue.

What is particularly instructive is that these regulations are enforced not just by the J.N.F., but by the state under its laws. They apply to J.N.F. and all state lands, which consist, overwhelmingly, of "absentee" property

In Israel these state lands are categorized as "national land". It means Jewish, not "Israeli" land. Employment of non-Jews is treated as illegal and an infraction of law. Because of a shortage of Jewish farm workers, and since Palestinians are paid a fraction of the wages allowed Jewish workers, some Jewish farmers (like former Defense Minister Ariel Sharon) employ Arabs. This practice is illegal! In 1974, the Minister of Agriculture denounced the practice as "a cancer". [71]

Settlements which sublease some land in sharecropping arrangements with Arabs are denounced. The spread of the practice, given the super-profits derived from cheap Palestinian labor, has been labelled "a plague" by the Ministry of Agriculture. The Settlement Department of the Jewish Agency has warned that such practices violate the law, the regulations of the Jewish Agency and of the Covenant between the Israeli State and the J.N.F. The employment of non-Jews has been punished by fines and "a donation to a Special Fund". [72]

(Perhaps this is dated material, I simply do not know, but nevertheless no less factual. I will leave it up to your lazy self to do some research and find updated information since I believe I have done more than enough research here to prove my points).


-- have you seen the palistinian surveys? Dont make me have to break out the statistics it is not pretty and it will just make people on here not like the palistinians. Surveys have shown regularly that the palistinians are MORE radical than the israelis by a large degree so dont bring up some stupid complain that israeli youth are radical without the matching statistics..

RESPONSE: This is yet another attempt to prove that 2 wrongs make a right. While those of the islamic faith are labeled idol worshipers and cockroaches by members of the civilized world (ironically w/o arousing any accusation of bigotry), it is somehow okay to justify your actions if the other side is just as or more guilty. The Israeli youth are supposed to be the Chosen Ones. They are in the driver's seat. They are the future of Israel and will ultimaely decide whether there will be peace in the Middle East. Their views reflect the teachings of their elders. As long as they allow the Palestinians to be second-class citizens, they should be setting the examples, not preaching an eye for an eye.


-- Unfortunately in your rush to "collect facts" you collect racist propoganda (whether you are racist or not). First it is one sided some of it is rubish some if it is out of context some if it is true and a problem but not as big a problem that you make out (the old trick of mixing truth and lies).

RESPONSE: The pot is indeed calling the kettle black here. I have answered and/or referenced all of the statements in your post while you continue to look for loose bricks to pick without responding to the more relevant points. And I guess criticizing the Palestinians, Muslims and, heck, anyone who does not conform to the Zionist view is NOT racist. But merely pointing out human rights violations in Israel IS. So where exactly is the rubbish and lies and racist propoganda in my post. And remember, from little acorns grow mighty oaks. But I guess this would never be a big enough problem for you even if it reaches or exceeds the magnitude of the Holocaust.


-- OK there is some discrimination in israel just like in the USA - i.e. if you compare a black man with a black purse he is probably going to look brown - and it probably used to be worse particularly jsut after israel was formed...

Your attempt to call a spade a spoon is laughable. For heaven's sake, man, this is the 21st century in an increasingly global and educated world. But I guess it's okay to call these and myriad other government-sanctioned violations of human rights "some discrimination" as long as it's not you or your loved-ones suffering the fall-out of these mere "technical" rights violations. There may be discrimination in the US but at least it is not overtly government sanctioned and the US Govt has enacted many laws to prevent these discriminations while the Iraeli Government is enacting laws to encourage them. So I can't understand how you can even compare the two situations on an even keel.

If you don't read all of this post, at least take the time to check out the links below to educate yourself of some more of the "few technical rights" violations perpetrated on innocent human beings thru the justification of collective punishment.

http://www.unhchr.ch/Huridocda/Huridoca.nsf/0/055b10221b100adcc12569ea004b94c4?Opendocument

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE151212002?open&of=ENG-ISR

http://www.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/0/0b8af9e51ab74df149256d9b0014f2cb?OpenDocument


-- the right of return is obviously discriminatory in its own way (although since I dont have an urge to go to israel and get myself blown up it doesn't bother me, and anyway all countries immigration laws are biased in some way). there is the recent law that applies to palistinian families of jews and a few technical rights as well as being forced to put your religion on a card.
Most of these are chicken feed next to what the surrounding countries do or many other countries around the world maybe even most of the countries. Basicallly speaking israelis are protected by the normal sort of equal human rights laws.

RESPONSE: This is clearly the most egregious part of your post. That it dosen't bother you since you don't have the urge to go to Israel and get blown up, proving once again that you are a pathetic selfish excuse for a human being who has no empathy for the suffering of other people as long as you are not inconvenienced in any way.

As to the other countries that violate human rights, they are not secular countries as Israel claims to be and, even if they do make the same claim, then they are just as hypocritical and despicable. Once again you are employing your flawed theory of "two wrongs make a right" for obvious lack of a better defense.

I believe that most people, certainly including me, agree that Israel has a right to a peaceful co-existence and a land the Jews can proudly call their own after undergoing much discrimination and hardship in the past. But for God's sake, be more humane about it, give the poor Palestinians the same right to co-exist peacefully and without discrimination in a decent portion of the land they have every right to call their own. It's called sharing and it's what every decent religion and civilization preaches and should be practicing.

I apologize to the other folks on this board for taking up so much space but as you can see, it indignates me deeply that there are people that can dismiss the death and suffering of so many with callous abandon while extolling the tyrannical behavior of their masters.

>>> True. But a building can lose many of it's bricks but still stand tall as long as it's foundation and pillars are intact.

So you knock out the bad bricks or links in order to find out if its a chain or a building. Good old critical debate. Unless you think you should be immune to the normal academic proceedure.

>>> At least take the trouble to look at the "Jews against Zionism" website and try to glean what ulterior motive(s) they could be harboring and educate us ignorant bigots.
Big surprise that you have not challenged any of the quotations from the site.

- I am not a jew, I dont knw any personaly and I dont have a torah and I dont know where I could get one from. So I leave it to someone who actuallly understands hebrew (or whatever) and has a torah to figure out if that quote is useful or makes sense in context. Frankly I dont care since the religious argument holds no weight with me anyway.
this applies toyour next response - since I dont care about the religious argument someone else can argue that but I am not surprised that they have an attachment to the land as some people do. I guess we have to work around that.

>> The end does not always justify the means when it leads to the massive loss of life and liberty.

- You seem to misunderstand. I am saying that you cannot now say "hey lets get rid of all the jews in israel" that is no better than saying "lets get rid of all the indians in india and replace them with true aborigonies." You will need a better arument than that.

>> Ten percent of the population killing and driving 80 percent of the population from the land they have lived in for over two centuries and you call it irrelevant.

A) you misunderstand (and misrepresent) actually what happpened
B) it is irrelevant to what we should do not just like the fact that indians are not the first people to reach india is irrelevant to india/pakistain policy.

> I wonder what your reaction would be if islamic radicals came into your neighborhood, forced all you good people out and brought in their cronies to occupy your homes.

A) you misunderstand the situation
B) Not that this is relevant but It wouldn't bother me since I dont own my house or anything I could not carry.

> How far back should someone go? How about to the time of the Balfour Declaration when the palestinians constituted 80% of the population, Jews 10% and Christian sects 10%. Currently jews comprise ~50.5% of Israel's population (source NewsMax).

- is that just for your own convenience? what is special about the balfour declaration? Im waiting for a logical argument not jsut wishful thinking.

>> Visit this site for the full statement from Professor Israel Shahak, a prominent Israeli academic.

What you need is for this news to be reported in a credible source people like Israel form an organization write a book and never get properly fact checked. If you got a better source then I might take it seriously.

>> This is yet another attempt to prove that 2 wrongs make a right.

No it isnt. I made the point that you were ignoring facts when they are convenient this in no way implies the above.

>> While those of the islamic faith are labeled idol worshipers and cockroaches by members of the civilized world (ironically w/o arousing any accusation of bigotry)

-damn it what country are you living in!

>> They are the future of Israel and will ultimaely decide whether there will be peace in the Middle East.

- This is an old trick of assuming that one side is just behaving on instinct and the other is the side that can make the decision to stop. It is basically an excuse for bad behaviour that suits you. you say "hey I cant stop my self from hitting you if you dont give me all your money".

>> The pot is indeed calling the kettle black here. I have answered and/or referenced all of the statements in your post while you continue to look for loose bricks to pick

The pot is indeed calling the kettle black here. You are looking for some laws in history or other such things in order to say israel is bad despite the fact that it is generally speaking better than the surrounding countries. talk about picking bricks.

>> But I guess it's okay to call these and myriad other government-sanctioned violations of human rights "some discrimination"

- I oppose all discrimination but the question is why do you oppose specifically israeli discrimination and seemingly propose to replace it with the even more discrimatory and HR violating PLO?
as long as it's not you or your loved-ones who will suffer the fall-out of these mere "technical" rights violations, eh? Just as long as the palistinians get their land back eh?

>> There may be discrimination in the US but at least it is not overtly government sanctioned and the US Govt has enacted many laws to prevent these discriminations while the Iraeli Government is enacting laws to encourage them.

- your are being selective. the US has passed effectively racist laws and israel has passed effectively human rights laws. But of course you would be selective considering your sources.

>> This is clearly the most egregious part of your post. That it dosen't bother you since you don't have the urge to go to Israel and get blown up, proving once again that you are a pathetic selfish excuse for a human being who has no empathy for the suffering of other people as long as you are not inconvenienced in any way.

- You missed the second part where I note that immigration policy is discriminatory by its very nature. The first part just was a note that It does not bother me personally (which I guess was irrelevant but people keep asking me "what if you were").It does bother me philosophically as I basically said earlier but I am also unable to get into the USA which does bother me personally and to an extent philosophically.

>> As to the other countries that violate human rights, they are not secular countries as Israel claims to be

- so trying to be secular is a punishable sin? IE if you declare you are secular suddenly you become a legitimate target for vijay eh? (stupid)

>> and, even if they do make the same claim, then they are just as hypocritical and despicable. Once again you are employing your flawed theory of "two wrongs make a right" for obvious lack of a better defense.

no you are appplying the "it is only worth getting angry about if israel does it" attack for lack of a better one

>> I believe that most people, certainly including me, agree that Israel has a right to a peaceful co-existence and a land the Jews can proudly call their own after undergoing much discrimination and hardship in the past. But for God's sake, be more humane about it, give the poor Palestinians the same right to co-exist peacefully and without discrimination in a decent portion of the land they have every right to call their own. It's called sharing and it's what every decent religion and civilization preaches and should be practicing.

You are a moron. I agree with you they should take one of those two state solutions. But you are jsut being a dick about it by trying to throw stones at the jews for some stupid reason. Why dont you jsut focus on the solution?

Sorry X. In my haste I did not realize that you were referring to the main article on this post. Nevertheless,
when you have precedence in the form of the attack of the USS Liberty and the Lavon Affair, then this article should justifiably be given more credence than a mere cospiracy theory.

As Mark Willacy from ABC Australia correctly pointed out: In the end, it’s hard to know who to believe; A Palestinian leadership Israel accuses of supporting terror, or an Israeli Government, Palestinians accuse of trying to create a pretext for the full-scale invasion of Gaza.

this is the basic law: israeli lands
http://www.knesset.gov.il/laws/special/eng/basic13_eng.htm
Seems to be a standard socialist policy. dont transfer public land.
and if your interested in isreli human rights here is the authorative source
http://www.knesset.gov.il/laws/special/eng/basic3_eng.htm

It is possible to have issues with the Keren Kayemet Le-Israel.

the origional law by the way was

In 1960, Israel's Knesset adopted a Basic Land Law based on JNF's principle of national land, which stated that land owned by the Jewish People cannot be sold, but only leased for periods of 49 years at a time. Social reform by disadvantaging your own people hmm.

"Various Legal Aspects of Israeli Land Law:

The Land Law 5729-(1969) defines a closed list of real estate rights recognised by Israeli law. These are: Ownership, Lease Mortgage, Easement and Preemption. The nature of these rights are similar to those existing under English Law.

In Israel, private ownership of land is available for approximately 7% of the Country's land, since approximately 93% of the land is owned by the State by virtue of Basic Law: Israel Lands, which prohibits any transfer of ownership rights from the State to another party (there are some exceptions to this limitation which will not be discussed within the scope of this article). Thus, State land is most commonly leased for long periods rather then sold.

The limitation upon conveying ownership from the State to another party reflects the principles of the Jewish National Fund, which were adopted in the spirit of the 5th Zionist Congress held in 1905."

Now stop quoting from stupid sites and go to real sources

Finnaly if the laws were once "racist" and they are now "not racist" then they are no longer valid critisisms of israel.
And saying "well I think it was once true" is no defense.

Let me make one thing clear, I have absolutely nothing against Jews or Israelis nor do I have any empathy for the violent factions amongst the Palestinians including Arafat. Neither am I splitting here by saying the Israelis are all bad while the Palestinians are all good. You can always get a substantial daily media dose about how evil the Palestinian terrorists are. But the point I am emphasizing here is that the Israeli government and people have the clear upper hand in negotiating a peace settlement and should be the beacon of democracy here rather than being complicit in causing the death and suffering of non-violent Palestinian civilians as well as innocent israeli jews. Nor have I stated anywhere that the Jews should be compelled to leave Israel and hand the whole land back to the Palestinians. Show me specifically where I have stated that.

You accuse me of interpreting your statements incorrectly when I have provided you with references that you either ignore or question their veracity without basis. Since you cannot find any source to challenge Professor Shahak's statement you so readily dissmiss him as an unreliable source. My argument is, if he is wrong about this, prove it, do your own research to prove my research faulty, don't just theorize. I'm sure most of the readers at this site would like to see some facts rather than opinions. And, pray tell me, what is your definition of a credible source? The bottom line is one man's meat is another man's poison. So I am willing to cite my sources if you are willing to cite yours which, by the way, you have not done in any of your posts.

Your references to India are hilarious. There isn't a single major subset in India that can, according to international law, lay any territorial claims other than the Sikhs and Kashmiris both of which make up a significantly small proportion of the Indian population and I certainly do not support the Indian Government when they use violent means to resolve problems with these groups when peaceful measures could be employed instead. The only pure aborigines in the world today are in Australia not India. If you are referring to the aborigines as the first inhabitants, then the Indians that exist there now are the direct descendants of the aborigines. But we are not discussing the problems of India here. I will however, say relevantly, that the British learned a valuable lesson when they created the separation of India and Pakistan. Since partition in 1947, there have been only two very brief wars between the two nations with relatively minor collateral damage. The people of the two nations may not agree on many terms but they do co-exist in relative peaceful harmony. The muslims living in India have equal rights with the majority Hindus and even have their own Islamic laws circumventing civil laws when they do not affect the nation at large. However, we are talking exclusively about Israel's complicity in the context of this article. You can find many other boards that emphasize palestinian and arab as well as Indian excesses most of which also run specific to their topics.

If you are unclear about the Balfour Decleration, do a google search. The declaration made in the form of a letter from Lord Balfour to Lord Rothschild represents "the first political recognition of Zionist aims by a Great Power" establishing the importance of this time in history. Moreover the letter goes on to state:

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

You are absolutely right that immigration policy is discrimanatory by it's very nature but this is a generalization. Any immigration policy that discriminates on the basis of race, creed or culture is factually biased and hardly fits the definition of a secular nation. Trying to be secular is not a sin, pretending to be one is. Besides, as a US taxpayer, who contributes a portion of the ~10 billion dollars a year to Israel in the form of grants, loans (which will never require repayment, incidentally) and defense subsidies, I do have a vested interest when my money is being used to violate human rights anywhere in this world as well as a social responsibility to see that the money is used wisely to promote peace and not violence.

Do us all a favor and post a list of the laws passed in the US that are racially biased over the past 50 years. This would do much to enlighten me.

LET ME SHOUT THIS OUT ONCE MORE FOR EMPHASIS: I AM NOT TRYING TO SOLVE THE MID-EAST CRISES HERE. NOR AM I ATTEMPTING TO PLACE THE ENTIRE BLAME ON THE ISRAELIS AS YOU SO READILY ACCUSE ME OF DOING WITHOUT PROOF. THERE ARE GOOD ISRAELIS AND BAD ISRAELIS JUST AS THERE ARE GOOD PALESTINIANS AND BAD PALESTINIANS. AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED THIS ARTICLE IS SPECIFIC TO THE ISRAELI GOVT'S ROLE AS THE RULERS OF THE LAND IN PERPETUATING THE CYCLE OF VIOLENCE IN THE MID-EAST.

Finally, I may be stupid, a moron, and a dick but I have widely used other sources to show that I am not the only moron or dick on this planet. What's your defense.

(Sorry, folks this is definitely my last post on this subject. I will let you readers judge whether I am being racist toward Israel or socially responsible in emphasizing "the other side of the story". Since writing is definitely not my forte and being remiss in not proof-reading my posts due to my verbosity, I would like to apologize profusely in advance if I have allowed any inadvertently inaccurate or racist statement to creep it. I have attempted to reference my quotations so that you may do your own research and feel free to correct any fallacies in my posts).

Sorry X. In my haste I did not realize that you were referring to the main article on this post. Nevertheless,
when you have precedence in the form of the attack of the USS Liberty and the Lavon Affair, then this article should justifiably be given more credence than a mere cospiracy theory.

As Mark Willacy from ABC Australia correctly pointed out: In the end, it’s hard to know who to believe; A Palestinian leadership Israel accuses of supporting terror, or an Israeli Government, Palestinians accuse of trying to create a pretext for the full-scale invasion of Gaza.

Finally a reference from you. But, maybe because I'm just a stupid, moronic dick, I am unable to find a legal reference to Non-Jews leasing National lands nor the Knesset's stand on Jews sub-leasing the lands to non-jews. What I did find and what you did quote in your post is exactly what I stated in my initial post regarding the states (read all jewish people's) collective ownership of the lands.

1950. Israel enacted the Development Authority Law, granting the Jewish National Fund authority over 92% of the land. By means of a "Land Covenant", all this property, most of it expropriated from Palestinians, now becomes the "inalienable property" of the Jewish people worldwide, meaning non-Jews can never buy any of it, never rent any of it, nor even be employed on any of it.

So, What's new???????????

After taking a little more than a cursory look at the site, The Knesset site does not appear to make any references to permitting the lease or sub-lease of the land to non-jews. Perhaps you can specifically direct this moron to the page that addresses my statement above as well as the statements regarding non-jews working on national lands.

I have referenced three sites at the end of my previous post - the UN, Amnesty International and Relief web, dated 2000-2002 discussing the Knesset laws being enforced (or rather the lack of it) but I can surmise that you will discredit these organizations as stupid and irrelevant. I guess, basically any site that does not conform to your rigid views is stupid. But my responses are really directed to the other readers who can make up their own minds as to the relevancy of the sites.

May I digress by asking you to kindly not use the "hmmmm" in your posts. It leaves the illusion that you are actually thinking.

Readers: I did not see Scotties last post before I made my last post. I just had to respond to it. This is absolutely the last post from me.

> You can always get a substantial daily media dose about how evil the Palestinian terrorists are.

- Is that right? I dont get to see that media it seems. But I wouldn't know what media you see.

> But the point I am emphasizing here is that the Israeli government and people have the clear upper hand in negotiating a peace settlement.

Depends on what you mean by "upper hand"? Did the allies have the "upper hand" in promoting peace prior to WWII? I guess so and yet it was not (on the whole) "their fault" that we did not get peace. Seems to me all that hamas et al have to do to stop the problems is to stop killing people .then *poof* problem solved (the "problem" being them killing eachother). All we have then is some residual paranoid israeli actions that there will no longer be a justification for (such as the wall). If the israelis stop doing things that will not stop terrorism because terrorism is not the action of the rational people it is the irrational people. And it is not controled by those who suffer but by those who are powerful.

> Since you cannot find any source to challenge Professor Shahak's statement you so readily dissmiss him as an unreliable source.

- look up

And, pray tell me, what is your definition of a credible source?

- well if I was talking to you I would use either the origional source (eg the law itself) OR a left leaning newspaper.

> The bottom line is one man's meat is another man's poison.

- exactly, if somthing is true it should usually occur not only within the work of people who have identical world views to you but also in the work of the people who oppose you.

> There isn't a single major subset in India

I was not refering to sub sets i was refering to ALL indians. And I WAS refering to the Australian aborigines. Of course there is no need to go into detail since it was noting that the proposal that they own all the land from egypt to australia is ridiculous. By the way the current indians are quite different from aborigonies genetically speaking the aborigonal genes are basically unrepresented in them but are very strongly represented in the australian aborigonies. The current indians are the people who drove the people who drove the people who... drove out the aborigonies even if there was a little inter mingling. So if I was to accept that races can be "guilty and not guilty" (which is what I am ridiculing) then I would have to say that the Indians are 99.9% guilty and MAYBE .1% victims of that particular crime while the aborigonies are the ONLY 100% innocent group (although Im sure they were guilty of beating eachother up) Anyway there is intermingling between jews and palistinians - as if they were not both semetic anyway maybe one day they can say "we are both humans anyway so it doesnt matter".

>>"India and Pakistan co-exist in relative peaceful harmony."

You have a weak definition of "peace and harmony" I note. And israel has basically equal rights like in india.

>> If you are unclear about the Balfour Decleration, do a google search. The declaration made in the form of a letter from Lord Balfour to Lord Rothschild represents "the first political recognition of Zionist aims by a Great Power" establishing the importance of this time in history. Moreover the letter goes on.. [and on and on]

But why should we care about it or what was happening at that date? It is no more special than any other declaration. If you declare it so it is only because a white man from an island thousands of Km away which happened to have conquored this bit of land in a war considering the topic here isnt that stupid? why dont we go back to a turkish declaration or a israeli one?

>> Besides, as a US taxpayer, who contributes a portion of the ~10 billion dollars a year to Israel in the form of grants, loans (which will never require repayment, incidentally) and defense subsidies, I do have a vested interest when my money is being used to violate human rights anywhere in this world

I recon you shouldnt be donating your money to all of these people. You americans are crazy no wonder your economy has be shrinking relitive to the rest of hte world for the last 50 odd years. but donating money to countries doesnt give you any more right to tell them what to do it just gives you the right to stop donating money. You can't jsut buy countries like that.

- Do us all a favor and post a list of the laws passed in the US that are racially biased over the past 50 years.

Im sure you have the sources for that sort of information. I suggest immigration, law enforcement, education (affirmative action) and probably a few other areas. Im no expert on USA law and this is a side issue since USA is probably one of the least "officialy" racist countries in the world but If we wipe a white cloth over you I'll bet it comes up a litte dirty.

>LET ME SHOUT THIS OUT ONCE MORE FOR EMPHASIS: I AM NOT TRYING TO SOLVE THE MID-EAST CRISES HERE.

- well maybe you should be. It is easy to jump in and say somthing that just inflames a situation. this is the political tightrope that foreignministers walk when dealing with israel or congo or iraq or china or any other country. You could say "screw you you are racist I hate you" (and then they just get their backs up and maybe you start a war or whatever) or you could offer them a practical solution that solves their fears as well as fixing the human rights issue.
You should know about these things with india and pakistain constantly posturing about attacking each other or whatever and more soldiers keep on dying from cold and nature on the boarder than from actual shooting. If they could forget issues like who is "supposed" to own the little bit of land and figure out what would be a practical thing to do about the problem they wouldnt have to have silly things like this happening.

>> I am unable to find a legal reference to Non-Jews leasing National lands nor the Knesset's stand on Jews sub-leasing the lands to non-jews.

-- fancy that. that is because it is not part of that law. the one that you claimed it was part of. I dont have to prove the negitive all I have to do is show that your source is rubbish.

What I did find and what you did quote in your post is exactly what I stated in my initial post regarding the states (read all jewish people's) collective ownership of the lands.

> You were arguing that the law is racist. This law in itself is not racist what you read into the law IS racist but that is not what the law says.
If you read "the jewish people" everytime you see the word state well you will always see every law as racist wont you!!

>> 1950. Israel enacted the Development Authority Law, granting the Jewish National Fund authority over 92% of the land. By means of a "Land Covenant", all this property, most of it expropriated from Palestinians

Thanks for blatently lying. The Jewish National Fund owns or manages 16%.
according to these people
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/depts/clinic/ihr/display_details.cfm?ID=257&document_type=commentary
who are arguing for your case. As the law suggests alot of land is owned by the state itself (which is NOT part of JNF). JNF it would appear bought or was donated the vast majority of its land (and if any was stolen I support its reposession) so it is a little like a church owning its own church grounds (except in this case its REALLY BIG).

- Also your an idiot. the palistinians never owned "most " of the land so it would be impossible to steal from them land that they did not own. oh and by the way palestine never existed as a independant country anyway ..the palistinian state did not own the land either.

>> After taking a little more than a cursory look at the site, The Knesset site does not appear to make any references to permitting the lease or sub-lease of the land to non-jews.

The law to which I directed you is the one to which you refered. interestingly it doesnt say what you said it said. maybe it got changed maybe it NEVER said that.

but I can surmise that you will discredit these organizations as stupid and irrelevant.

No they are OK But they dont say anything about these laws either they just note that the israelis are preventing the palistinians from things that normal people are allowed to do eg "Denial of freedom of movement" (Duh!)

Finally a reference from you. But, maybe because I'm just a stupid, moronic dick, I am unable to find a legal reference to Non-Jews leasing National lands nor the Knesset's stand on Jews sub-leasing the lands to non-jews. What I did find and what you did quote in your post is exactly what I stated in my initial post regarding the states (read all jewish people's) collective ownership of the lands.

1950. Israel enacted the Development Authority Law, granting the Jewish National Fund authority over 92% of the land. By means of a "Land Covenant", all this property, most of it expropriated from Palestinians, now becomes the "inalienable property" of the Jewish people worldwide, meaning non-Jews can never buy any of it, never rent any of it, nor even be employed on any of it.

So, What's new???????????

After taking a little more than a cursory look at the site, The Knesset site does not appear to make any references to permitting the lease or sub-lease of the land to non-jews. Perhaps you can specifically direct this moron to the page that addresses my statement above as well as the statements regarding non-jews working on national lands.

I have referenced three sites at the end of my previous post - the UN, Amnesty International and Relief web, dated 2000-2002 discussing the Knesset laws being enforced (or rather the lack of it) but I can surmise that you will discredit these organizations as stupid and irrelevant. I guess, basically any site that does not conform to your rigid views is stupid. But my responses are really directed to the other readers who can make up their own minds as to the relevancy of the sites.

May I digress by asking you to kindly not use the "hmmmm" in your posts. It leaves the illusion that you are actually thinking.

Readers: I did not see Scotties last post before I made my last post. I just had to respond to it. This is absolutely the last post from me.

I find this amusing..
a person who says
"I do not believe in aliens, I am not a firm adherent to any organized religion, and certainly do not believe everything I read without logical & rational corroboration."
And then provides a huge list of things that he thinks israel has done which was extracted straight from
his library of lets bash israel books.

He then says one paragraph of how I miust be wrong because the law on land reform does not say what he though it said
one paragraph that is both wrong and misleading at the same time (the state is not part of the JNF and the state owns most of the land, and the fact that the foreigners cannot buy the land is incidental because the jews cant either AND pretending that my reference agreed with these points)
He goes back to confirming that what he said was part of the law is not part of the law
And finally notes that he sent me three references which are somewhat off topic. Pretending that it contains evidence to support the points above that we were debbating (which it doesnt)

I mean hey if we were doing that we could list
------
Sodomy carries a three- to 10-year jail term in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The Palestinian human rights groups are afraid to deal with the problem. One Palestinian activist told me that Israelis need to raise the issue because they'll be shut down if they try to. Amnesty Israel is sympathetic but their mandate is limited to Israeli human rights violations. And the international human rights groups say they've got a long list of pressing issues.

Hmm amnesty's madate is ONLY Israeli violations not israeli ones. no wonder they always find anti israeli ones and not a balanced perspective.

Fortunatly HRW is not quite so controled

http://www.hrw.org/press/force17.htm
here is the important one
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/isrl-pa/ISRAELPA1002-01.htm

I just wanted to make a comment about what was written above entitled:

FOR THOSE WHO ARE AGAINST ISRAEL
by FYI on Saturday November 08, 2003 at 10:20 AM


Quote:

Did you know that the first victim of 9/11 was an Israeli Citizen, named Daniel Lewin.
Daniel, a member of Israel's elite commando unit - Sayeret Mat'kai, was murdered aboard Flight 11 - while attempting to prevent the hijackers from gaining entry to the cockpit.


-------


I read an article about a year ago in an American Newspaper, stating that the heroic actions of Daniel Lewin was discovered and confirmed, during an FBI Investigation on the September, 11th attacks, and that Daniel Lewin did try to stop the hijackers aboard Flight 11, but he was overpowered and killed.


Maybe we should stop and think before we throw any more stones at Israel. It was one of their citizens - one of their elite soldiers - that tried to save the lives of those aboard Flight 11 - as well as those that were in the World Trade Center Tower - that the plane crashed into.


We have no right to judge them, or make any slanderous remarks about them.... We just had a taste on September 11th - of what they go through every day...

What would we do if we had to live through a September 11th every day?

Oh, well it certainly must be the truth then. The FBI would never lie, would they?

Because it's easier just to jerk the knee and call it all a Zion-symp plot.

@%<

Biased investigative journalism about HRW from another anti-semitic, anti-democratic, pro-terrorist, liberal, leftist, socialist, commie, nazi, ***@@####&&&& website. Remember, you may publish any crap about any group, nation or human rights abusers but don't say anything bad about Israel and Zionism or you will be an anti-semitic, anti-democratic, pro-terrorist, liberal, leftist, socialist, commie, nazi, ***@@####&&&& too.

http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/HRW.html

When an organization lies even once, how can it have any credibility. How can you then distinguish between it's truths it's lies?

Easy for some people, I guess. If it supports your beliefs, it is true, if it does not it is an obvious lie.

Deal with it, you reprobate. If you think the FBI lied about it being a fact then show us your proof.

To "one of the editors" (nessie or someone else):
the website I sent nessie (you?) to is a *truth* propagating site. What's more, it has been posted on this site several times as a URL but you haven't redacted it or removed the posts featuring that URL. And finally, someone sent traffic from this site to a real Zionist site, masada2000, but I haven't seen you redacting the URL or removing the post. Are you stupid, or are you stupid?

One of the editors: "A link to a Zionist propaganda site was removed."

In other words, yes, Indybay does censor posts based purely on political stance.

@%<

Dominik Suter of Mossad's "Urban Moving Systems" on a list of 911 suspects - compiled by the FBI for Italy's Assifact:
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/CI-08-02.pdf

True or False..... "antiNessie" ?

???

You asked a question that you didn't know the answer to? That's a mighty risky strategy. If you were my lawyer, I'd fire you.

Read this:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/02/1572736.php

I am a dishonest tool who cares more about nit-picking the exact wording of your statements than actually addressing the matters at hand in honest, straightforward, realistic fashion.

Was the FBI Lying about Dominik Suter of Mossad, "anti Nessie"?

And to my very own personal cyberstalker "anti CFB":

Was the FBI lying about Dominik Suter of Mossad?

Waddya reckon?

Your Sutter canard is a lie, and you're lying about what you claim.

Rupert Murdoch's HOT CANARD POTATOES (FOX extract - requires audio)

My Dominik Suter "canard"?
(note the correct spelling of Suter)

How do you define "canard"?

Did I confabulate narratives about the activites of five "Urban Moving Systems" agents and their two buddies who were arrested on and around September 11?

Hey, antiCFB, my-personal-troll - from whence did the reports originate?

do you really post here only and especially for me?

Oh no . . . not this again . . . check off another troll on the fan club. I think we'll need to solicit for new donations to pay for the bandwith . . . it's getting more hits than we can handle as it is. now more . . . what next?

Raffle off a dream date with nessie.

Is that the best you can do? Even Smashy could do better than that. Have you considered getting help?

Hey, I'm only here to spruce up some excitement since you guys are so easily tempered by any opinion that does not agree with your agenda. Personally, I'd waiting for one intelligent retort from you guys before I retire but my patience is running thin.

BTW, read your post once again. If you are 5 years or less, you have the making of a genius. Older than 5 years - perhaps you should also consider getting help.

Funny thing is you guys dis this site claiming it is anti-semitic and then you spend most of your waking hours here. Shouldn't you be getting your news from the mainstream media because then you will hear everything you want to and will have no reason to get your panties up your rear. Just think, no more bacon for your mommy to clean up.

The fact that some of you believe that the FBI or any political or governmental organization for that matter does not lie speaks volumes about your intelligence and credibility. The obvious answer is that the world will never be able to tell when the FBI is telling the truth or not in any instance where there is reasonable doubt (score one for Nessie as far as I'm concerned). And for your fill of reasonable doubts, visit:

http://11september.2itb.com/

http://freerepublic.com/forum/a3afffd0341c5.htm

The FBI might lie at times.
But the extent to which people and organizations lie is generallly related to how accountable they are. Relitive to you or nessie for example the FBI is highly accountable. Sept 11 conspiricy theorists on the other hand could come on here day after day and say things that they know are lies and if they get found out they can ignore it and start lieing about the next thing. the FBI on the other hand will have people keeping a record of everything they do and demanding heads to roll if they find a lie etc (although they may not suceed in getting those heads).
The most likely situation is that the FBI tells the truth the vast majority of the time. therefore are more reliable than for example osama or saddam or you or (for all you know) anyone else here.

Click here:

http://www.indybay.org/features/judibari/

March 2, 2002 Jerusalem 10 Killed, 50+ Wounded Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Suicide Bomber outside Synagogue

February 27, 2002 West Bank 3 Wounded Fatah Female Suicide Bomber

February 25, 2002 Jerusalem 1 Killed, 8 Wounded Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Gunman Opens Fire at a Bus Stop

February 25, 2002 Gush Etzion 1 Killed, 1 Pregnant Woman Wounded Fatah
Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade Gunmen Open Fire on a Car

February 22, 2002 Efrat 1 Wounded Suicide Bomber in Supermarket

February 22, 2002 North of Jerusalem 1 Killed Fatah Drive-by Shooting

February 19, 2002 En Arik 6 Killed, 1 Wounded Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Gunmen Open Fire at Soldiers

February 18, 2002 Gush Katif 3 Killed, 4 Wounded Fatah Al-Aksa
Martyrs Brigade Gunfire and Bombs at Cars

February 18, 2002 near Jerusalem 1 Killed, 1 Injured Fatah Al-Aksa
Martyrs Brigade Car Bomb

February 16, 2002 Karnei Shomron 2 Killed, 27 Wounded Popular Front
for the Liberation of Palestine Suicide Bomber at Crowded Shopping
Mall

It dosn'r matter how many out there want to use the pen name of Abraham, it's the content that counts. It's rather obvious by its contents and the mode of thinking, one can sometimes figure out the author is progressive or backward conservative. Ex.

1. The right wing conservatives show little tolerances for anything but their own sacred cow. (I am not sure what that is because so many of these right wing conservatives lie, steal, betray, murder to achieve their goals. Other than their ends justify means, I don't know what real human values they hold.)

2. The right wing conservatives tend to pick on whatever small but specific segments and ignore the rest of 99.9% in their argument.

3. The right wing conservatives tend to use the tactics of confusion and disillusion to avoid facing the truth and reality. For instances, they'll start using the names of the progressives to publish their stupid stone-aged opinions on IMC.

4. It is my opinion that over 90% of the right wing conservatives are stupid selfish SOB followers. The remaining 10% are the smart manipulators who are out for their own personal gains.

Israeli government should be condemned for their sinful acts and intents against other racial groups in the middle east.

Frankly, there is only one word I can find to accurately describe you ..........RETARD.

You agree that the FBI may lie sometimes, but then you go on to insist that the FBI is credible because they are more accountable than Nessie and me. You claim that they demand heads roll but then say that they may not succeed in "getting those heads". What are you - the prince of oxymorons or more aptly the prince of morons.

Next time post something sensible or don't post at all. Frankly, any opionion from you is like your a**hole. Everyone knows you have one but nobody really wants to hear it. Maybe you should get your mommy to write your next post.

Since you are so knowledgeable about all the palestinian acts of terrorism (which I condemn as barbaric, incidentally), how about drawing a parallel comparative list of innocent civilian Palestinians killed by the official representatives of the state of Israel (which I equally condemn as barbaric). A list of the terrorist acts possibly perpetrated by the Hammas faction of Mossad would also be helpful. So how about it, Honest Abe?

Since you are so knowledgeable about all the palestinian acts of terrorism (which I condemn as barbaric, incidentally), how about drawing a parallel comparative list of innocent civilian Palestinians killed by the official representatives of the state of Israel (which I equally condemn as barbaric). A list of the terrorist acts possibly perpetrated by the Hamas faction of Mossad would also be nice.

So how about it, Honest Abe?

There's a one-time (right wing) phony Abe posted the above supposedly Palestinian events. And there's me, the progressive Abe.

Just beware of the wicked Bushy cronieees.

No one surely can believe that the Abraham I've come to know on this Board would print the above post at 1:14 a.m. on November 13th. The Abraham I know on this Board dispises GWBush as much as I do, and he could never be called "right wiing" by anyone. Forgeries are a common occurrence on this Board. Hell, I should know. Keep up the good fight, Abraham.

Abraham
you are oviously a crule thoughtless person who lacks any kind of compassion. I have seen many of your posts and when you are backed into a corned you play -the old imposter did it, to save face. but you have pulled this way too often for it to work this time.

quote:
========
it's the content that counts.
========

I thought that was worth repeating - so here it is again:

quote:
========
it's the content that counts.
========

Your timely quote is just what I needed to start my day. Thank you for sharing.

To the most recent and obviously the original 'Angie': thanks - though I can't take credit for the excellent lesson - it was by an 'Abraham'.

beautiful quotes:
=============
Perhaps if you and your fellow editors stop censoring much of the posts by Angie's ENEMIES

they will stop FORGING POSTS IN HER NAME. It's worth giving a try.

Think about this long and hard before you reply.
============


Integrity and honesty are certainly worth "giving a try".
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=integrity
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=honesty

Do you like reggae, "antiNessie"?

October 4, 2003 Haifa 19 killed, 60 wounded Islamic Jihad Suicide
bombing in restaurant owned by Jews and Arabs
August 19, 2003 Jerusalem 22 killed, 135 wounded Hamas Suicide bombing
on a bus.

January 5, 2003 Tel Aviv 23 killed, 108 injured Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Two suicide bombers in an immigrant neighborhood

June 5, 2002 Megiddo 17 killed, 38 injured Islamic Jihad Car bomb
next to bus

May 27, 2002 Petah Tikvah 2 killed, 37 injured Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Suicide bomb in shopping mall

May 22, 2002 Rishon Lezion 2 killed, 40 wounded Suicide bomb on
pedestrian mall

May 19, 2002 Netanya 3 killed, 59 injured Hamas and the PFLP Suicide
bomb in market

May 7, 2002 Rishon Lezion 16 killed, 55 injured Hamas Suicide bomb
in pool hall

Apr 12, 2002 Jerusalem 6 killed, 104 injured Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Suicide bomb in Mahane Yehuda market

Apr 10, 2002 Kibbutz Yagur 8 killed, 22 injured Hamas Suicide
bombing on bus

March 31, 2002 Haifa 14 Killed, 40 Wounded Hamas Suicide bombing at
restaurant

March 29, 2002 Jerusalem 2 killed, 28 Wounded Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Suicide bombing at supermarket in Kiryat Yovel

March 27, 2002 Netanya 22 killed, 140 Wounded Hamas Suicide bombing
at Passover seder at Park Hotel

March 21, 2002 Jerusalem 3 killed, 86 Wounded Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Suicide bombing downtown

March 20, 2002 Afula 7 killed, 30 wounded Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Suicide bombing on bus

March 14, 2002 Karni-Netzarim road 3 Killed, 2 Wounded Fatah al-Aksa
Martyrs Brigade Remote Control Mine

March 12, 2002 near Kibbutz Matzuva 6 Killed, 7 Wounded Fatah al-Aksa
Martyrs Brigade Gunmen Ambush Vehicles

March 12, 2002 Kiryat Sefer checkpoint 1 Killed, 1 Wounded Shooting
Attack

March 11, 2002 Ashdod 1 Wounded Gunman Opens Fire at Bar Mitzvah

March 10, 2002 Netzarim 1 Killed Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade
Shooting Attack

March 9, 2002 Jerusalem 11 Killed, 54 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber at
Cafe

March 9, 2002 Netanya 2 Killed, 50 Wounded Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade 2 Gunmen Open Fire on a Promenade

March 7, 2002 Atzmona 5 Killed, 23 Wounded Terrorist Opens Fire and
Throws Grenades

March 7, 2002 Ariel 6+ Wounded Suicide Bomber in Hotel Lobby

March 5, 2002 Sderot 1 Baby Wounded Kassam Rocket

March 5, 2002 Afula 1 Killed, 10 Wounded Suicide Bomber on Bus

March 5, 2002 Tel Aviv 3 Killed, 35+ Wounded Gunman Opens Fire at
Restaurants

March 5, 2002 outside Bethlehem 1 Killed, 1 Wounded Gunman Ambushes
Vehicle

March 2, 2002 Jerusalem 10 Killed, 50+ Wounded Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Suicide Bomber outside Synagogue

February 27, 2002 West Bank 3 Wounded Fatah Female Suicide Bomber

February 25, 2002 Jerusalem 1 Killed, 8 Wounded Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Gunman Opens Fire at a Bus Stop

February 25, 2002 Gush Etzion 1 Killed, 1 Pregnant Woman Wounded Fatah
Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade Gunmen Open Fire on a Car

February 22, 2002 Efrat 1 Wounded Suicide Bomber in Supermarket

February 22, 2002 North of Jerusalem 1 Killed Fatah Drive-by Shooting

February 19, 2002 En Arik 6 Killed, 1 Wounded Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Gunmen Open Fire at Soldiers

February 18, 2002 Gush Katif 3 Killed, 4 Wounded Fatah Al-Aksa
Martyrs Brigade Gunfire and Bombs at Cars

February 18, 2002 near Jerusalem 1 Killed, 1 Injured Fatah Al-Aksa
Martyrs Brigade Car Bomb

February 16, 2002 Karnei Shomron 2 Killed, 27 Wounded Popular Front
for the Liberation of Palestine Suicide Bomber at Crowded Shopping
Mall

February 14, 2002 Gaza 3 Killed, 4 Wounded Mine Placed Under Tank

February 10, 2002 Be'er Sheva 2 Killed, 4 Wounded Hamas Drive-by
Shooting

February 8, 2002 Jerusalem 1 Killed 4 Teenagers with Knives

February 6, 2002 Moshav Hamra 2 Killed, 5 Wounded Hamas Gunmen
Infiltrates Moshav

January 30, 2002 Taiba 2 Wounded Fatah Suicide Bomber

January 27, 2002 Jerusalem 1 Killed, 150+ Wounded Fatah Female Suicide
Bomber

January 25, 2002 Tel Aviv 24 Wounded Islamic Jihad Suicide Bomber at
Crowded Pedestrian Shopping Mall

January 22, 2002 Jerusalem 2 Killed, 40 Wounded Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Guman Opens Fire on Crowd

January 17, 2002 Hadera 6 Killed, 35 Wounded Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs
Brigade Gunman Opens Fire at Bat Mitzvah Celebration

January 15, 2002 Beit Jala 1 Killed Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade
American Kidnapped and Murdered

January 9, 2002 Kerem Shalom 4 Killed, 2 Wounded Hamas Gunfire and
Expolsives

December 12, 2001 Emmanuel 10 Killed, 30 Wounded Fatah & Hamas Bomb
and Gunfire Attack on Bus

December 9, 2001 Haifa 31 Wounded Suicide Bomber

December 2, 2001 Haifa 15 Killed, 46 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber on
Bus

December 1, 2001 Jerusalem 10 Killed, 188+ Wounded Hamas 2 Suicide
Bombers and a Car Bomb in a Pedestrian Mall

November 29, 2001 near Hadera 3 Killed, 9 Wounded Islamic Jihad &
Fatah Suicide Bomber on Bus

November, 27, 2001 Afula 2 Killed, Dozens Wounded Islamic Jihad &
Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade 2 Gunmen Opened Fire on Crowd near the
Central Bus Station

November, 27, 2001 Gush Katif 1 Killed, 3 Wounded Hamas Grenades and
Gunfire

November 26, 2001 Erez Checkpoint 2 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber

November 24, 2001 Kfar Darom 1 Killed Hamas Morter Shell Landed on a
Soccer Field

November 4, 2001 Jerusalem 2 Killed, 50+ Wounded Islamic Jihad Gunman

October 28, 2001 Hadera 4 Killed, 40 Wounded Gunman

October 28, 2001 near Kibbutz Metzer 1 Killed Tanzim Drive-By
Shooting

October 17, 2001 Jerusalem Israeli Tourism Minister Rehavam Ze'evi
Assasinated Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine Gunmen in
Hotel

October 7, 2001 Beit She'an Valley 1 Killed Suicide Bomber

October 4, 2001 Afula 3 Killed, 16 Wounded Gunman Opens Fire on
Crowd

October 1, 2001 Jerusalem Several Wounded Car Bomb

September 9, 2001 Nahariya 3 Killed, 90 Wounded Hamas 1st
Israeli-Arab Suicide Bomber, at Train Station

September 9, 2001 West Bank 2 Killed, 4 Wounded Gunmen

September 4, 2001 Jerusalem 20 Wounded Suicide Bomber disguised as
Orthodox Jew

September 3, 2001 Jerusalem 3 Wounded Series of Car Bombs

August 12, 2001 Kiryat Motzkin 21 Wounded Islamic Jihad Suicide Bomber
at Cafe

August 9, 2001 Jerusalem 15 Killed, 130+ Wounded Islamic Jihad & Hamas
Suicide Bomber at Pizzaria

July 16, 2001 Binyamina 2 Killed, 11 Wounded Islamic Jihad Suicide
Bomber at Bus Stop

June 22, 2001 Dugit 2 Killed Hamas Suicide Bomber

June 1, 2001 Tel Aviv 21 Killed, 120 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber at
Disco

May 30, 2001 Netanya 8 Wounded Islamic Jihad Car Bomb outside School

May 27, 2001 Jerusalem 30 Wounded Popular Front for the Liberation of
Palestine & Islamic Jihad 2 Car Bombs

May 25, 2001 Hadera 65 Wounded Islamic Jihad Car Bomb

May 18, 2001 Netanya 5 Killed, 100+ Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber at
Mall

May 9, 2001 Tekoa 2 Killed Islamic Jihad Two 14 year-old Boys Beaten
and Stoned to Death, found dismembered in a Cave

April 23, 2001 Or Yehuda 8 Wounded Islamic Jihad Car Bomb in Outdoor
Market

April 22, 2001 Kfar Saba 1 Killed, 60 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber at
Bus Stop

March 28, 2001 near Kfar Saba 2 Killed, 4 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber
at School Bus Stop

March 27, 2001 Jerusalem 7 Wounded Islamic Jihad Car Bomb

March 27, 2001 Jerusalem 28 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber

March 26, 2001 Hevron 10-Month Old Infant Shalhevet Pass Killed
Sniper from Abu Sneineh

March 4, 2001 Netanya 3 Killed, 65+ Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber

February 14, 2001 Azor 8 Killed, 21 Wounded Hamas Bus Driver Plows
into Crowd

January 23, 2001 Tulkarem 2 Killed Hamas Gunmen Kidnap and Shoot 2
Israelis

January 1, 2001 Netanya 50+ Wounded Hamas Car Bomb

December 22, 2000 Jordan Valley 3+ Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber

November 22, 2000 Hadera 2 Killed, 55 Wounded Islamic Jihad Car Bomb
next to Bus

November 20, 2000 Kfar Darom 2 Killed, 9 Wounded School Bus Bombed

November 2, 2000 Jerusalem 2 Killed, 10 Wounded Islamic Jihad Car Bomb
in outdoor Market

October 26, 2000 Gaza 1 Wounded Islamic Jihad Youth Suicide Bomber on
Bike

November 7, 1999 Netanya 27 Wounded Hamas 3 Pipe Bombs

August 10, 1999 Nahshon Junction 6 Wounded Hamas Car Plows into Crowd
(Twice)

November 6, 1998 Jerusalem 2 Killed, 20 Wounded Islamic Jihad 2
Suicide Bombers

October 29, 1998 Gush Katif 1 Killed, 8 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber
Attacks School Bus

October 19, 1998 Be'er Sheva 59 Wounded Hamas Grenades Thrown at
Central Bus Station

October 11, 1998 Hevron 18 Wounded Hamas 2 Grenades Injure
Palestinians and Israelis

August 27, 1998 Tel-Aviv 14 Wounded Hamas Bomb In Dumpster

August 20, 1998 Tel Rumeiyda Rabbi Killed Hamas Fire Bomb & Stabbing
Link

you expect this from s/f indymedia (ha,ha,ha,ha,ha)
I pray you are not really this naive. you will see a lot of things from s/f indymedia but I assure you Integrity and honesty will not be on that list

Somebody is really desparate when he/she forges my name to a post such as this.

It would be more beneficial if you were to either sign your own name, assuming, of course, you know who you are, or give up this childish behaviour.

Or do you just want to dissrupt the dialogue of the board and provide a disservice to the rest of the civilized amongst us?

I did not submit the post at 12:59 a.m on 18 November 2003. I think you can all take that as a given.

The post submitted at 12:59 a.m. is REAL. Deal with that, you bleeding excuse for humanity forger.

I call upon my vile forger to cease his/her childish behaviour!
Hey bloody forger, your behaviour is uncivilized, immoral and totally unacceptable! How much longer are you going to carry on, pray?! This wee lass is getting more wee by the moment. Sigh...

You, o forger, are too envious of the wee points I'm trying to make on this board. Your points, on the other hand, do not need any bad publicity. You're quite good at making a bad name for yourself as it is. You wouldn't know civilized behaviour if you tripped over it.

I'm positive you, readers, can all be sure I submitted the post at 12:59 a.m on 18 November 2003.

What is this? A forger with a sense of humour?

My God, what's going to happen next?

I didn't write the post at 5:39 a.m., but I must definitely remember a few of the words and phrases contained therein such as "vile". Does anyone know if I've ever used "vile"? A link to same, perhaps? (Giggle).

Look, I am normally a happy, good natured individual, folks, and whereas denying forgeries is time consuming and draining, I cannot resist an individual with a sense of humour such as the above.

However, don't make a habit of it, please. I might erupt into non-stop giggles, and, hey, there's serious business to be conducted here on SF Indymedia.

And with that thought in mind, I'm going to take my giggles and move on.

Be kind, dear readers. I'm really way too busy for this sort of thing to continue indefinitely.

Can I appeal to your better natures? Come on, you've had your fun. Give it a rest.

Scottie the zionist said:
if I sought you out and THREW ROCKS AT YOU when you have a gun YOU WILL SHOOT ME

JUST LIKE ANY OTHER PERSON WOULD. [!!!]

Replying to...
"...professing themselves to be wise, they became fools..."

Think twice before you speak against "God's Chosen People"!! ...Israel is God's Chosen!!

...After you pass through death's door - you will be held accountable for what you say about Israel and her people

Um, this kind of talk makes me see you as someone that puts yourself above other people, and want us to "watch out" and stay out of your way. Oh, like you're allowed to stomp other people, overstepping what's given to you, and then tell the world to go screw. But when people talk about not helping anymore, uh oh, the threats start flowing. Chosen. Shouldn't we all be god's people? You're wack.

so you seem a bit upset that someone looked up a tidbit of relevant information from your religious book. I'd be the first person to have to admin that I know close to nothing of the religious roots of the Jewish people, and really have some learning to do of my own. I am not really looking at this whole issue as something we need to connect at the hip to conflict of religions, being that I'm "brainwashed" by a separation of church and state, something that until BUSH the idiot came in, was a good thing.

I'm glad someone put some actual words from this book in front of you. After they did that, why don't you accept them? You see to want to rewrite them or follow your own version or something. Hey, more power to ya. I have alot of issues with the catholic church and really don't practice 100% due to that. But then why do you get all upset when having facts pointed out by someone of another religion? At least be happy someone is willing to learn a bit more about something that has not been part of their life.

Daniel Lewin's family said it best: "We see it as an act of heroism that a person sacrifices his life to save others."

I, too, believe Daniel Lewin gave his life to save others, to 'save Israel.'

Too bad Israel saw fit to 'sacrifice' Danny, in order to fool the American people into hating Muslims as much as Israelis do.

911 accomplished one thing: It made "Americans HATE Muslims."

Thank you for the kind promotion of my work. However I issue an urgent WARNING! The proparanoid.com Web site was apparantly hijacked by government operative to take me 'off the air', ransoming it for $157,800 to let me have it back! DO NOT VISIT PROPARANOID.COM IF YOU WOULD NOT APPROVE OF INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY TRACKING OF YOUR VISIT! My new Web site is proparanoid.net, where you can learn more about the hijacking and find the original content.

H. Michael Sweeney, author
The Professional Paranoid: How to Fight Back When Stalked, Targeted, or Harassed by Any Person, Group, or Individual;
MC Realities;
In Mindless Times;
Fatal Rebirth

Wether this is a fact or just a theory, we will never now, and we should not spend energy trying to find this out. What does remain a fact is that Israël values land more than live, especially if it is about the lives of non-israelis. A normal decent human being should question what is more important, and maybe consider openly condemning the fact that Israel denies the right of existance to the Palestinian people.