Debating whether this or that is anti-Semitic while Israelis freely kill and torture

When Germans slaughtered Jews, no one debated whether or not it was anti-German to condemn the Germans who did it AND those who remained silent.

When white South Africans were slaughtering blacks, no one debated whether or not it was anti-white to condemn the white South Africans who did it AND those who remained silent.

Israel is the only case in which the main victimizers remain blameless no matter what they do. True, not all Israelis are involved. Some, in fact, oppose the atrocities. Those are decent people -- like some of the white South Africans -- who can be worked with. But to steer blame away from those committing the atrocities and those turning their heads and remaining silent is immoral on our part -- precisely because we pay for it with our taxes.

This must be the only case in history where a people can do whatever they want to another people -- literally -- and get away with it. All the while the decent people of the world regard any blame directed their way as anti-Semitic.

"When white South Africans were slaughtering blacks, no one debated whether or not it was anti-white to condemn the white South Africans who did it "

Quite right, because the opposition focussed on condemning the state apparatus and policy of apartheid. They didn't go around saying "why can't I say I am anti-Afrikaaner??"

Lesson: forget about using labels on yourself, you're just buying into the authoritarian game. You're setting yourself up as a target strawman.

-- "why can't I say I am anti-Afrikaaner??"

I am not saying I have the right to say that. What I am saying is that decent people are concentrating on anti-Semitism when people are being ethnically cleansed.

You say I want to use a label on myself. But what I am saying is I want others to stop labelling me.

A picture is worth a thousand words. That is why the Holocaust is so imprinted into all of our minds. If the media allowed all the terrible scenes of what the Israelis do to the Palestinians on a daily basis, you would have long ago given up the sensitivities you hold. But these images are suppressed and censored out of our minds so you have no idea of the reality going on there and believe that anti-Semitism (which I abhor) is somehow on a par with that.

If Palestinians were doing even 1/10th to Israelis what the Israelis do to the Palestinians, there would be worldwide condemnation and statements about the resurgence of anti-Semitism. (Like breaking peoples bones as policy, soldiers and settlers abducting young women, women in labor being held up at roadblocks, children being shot in the eye, daily killings and torture. Imagine any of these happening on a DAILY basis to people of Jewish descent and what imagery does that conjure up).

"you have no idea of the reality going on there and believe that anti-Semitism (which I abhor) is somehow on a par with that"

You're making some awfully huge (and false) assumptions about my position ... do you assume everyone who has a tactical criticism is automatically pro-Israeli?

The reason why people of the US are not sensitive to the plight of the Palestinians is simple, and the answer ain't "because the Jews own the media".

The real answer is because ordinary Palestinians are at best silent, and at worst joyous, whenever american or israeli citizens are targeted by homicide bombers.

If the palestinian people made a cohesive effort to condemn the actions of the extremists within their own rasks, sympathies in this country would quickly swing the other way.

The reason why people of the US are not sensitive to the plight of the Palestinians is simple, and the answer ain't "because the Jews own the media".

The real answer is because ordinary Palestinians are at best silent, and at worst joyous, whenever american or israeli citizens are targeted by homicide bombers.

If the palestinian people made a cohesive effort to condemn the actions of the extremists within their own ranks, sympathies in this country would quickly swing the other way.

The reason why people of the US are not sensitive to the plight of the Palestinians is simple, and the answer ain't "because the Jews own the media".

The real answer is because ordinary Palestinians are at best silent, and at worst joyous, whenever american or israeli citizens are targeted by homicide bombers.

If the palestinian people made a cohesive effort to condemn the actions of the extremists within their own ranks, sympathies in this country would quickly swing the other way.

actually, there were no Palestinians cheering in the streets of New York before the spectacle of carnage on September 11th. But there were some government employees of the Israeli intelligence service there, cheering away like mad, unable to restrain their joy.

http://www.middleeast.org/comments/1/3941.shtml

True, I do not know your position, but I wasn't assuming you were pro-Israeli. I was actually assuming you are liberal and decent and care about both peoples.

I believe, however, you misunderstand my position. The question of tactics should not override the main issue -- which is bringing justice and immediate safety to a people that has been horribly wronged and continue to be.

The question of tactics should not be about what to criticize and what not to. It should be about what can we do to stop this. Tactics that come to mind are forcing our government to stop aiding Israel, supporting the call for UN troops to be stationed in the Occupied Territories, supporting UN resolutions calling on Israel to withdraw and allow refugees to return, and basically joining the world community on the Israeli Palestinian conflict.

By focussing the discussion on tactics of what to criticize and what not to, I believe we show that we are more concerned about sensitivities than about real world horrors occurring as we debate.

"The question of tactics should not be about what to criticize and what not to. It should be about what can we do to stop this. Tactics that come to mind are forcing our government to stop aiding Israel, supporting the call for UN troops to be stationed in the Occupied Territories, supporting UN resolutions calling on Israel to withdraw and allow refugees to return, and basically joining the world community on the Israeli Palestinian conflict."

Exactly my point, when I said that we must focus on the state apparatus and not get drawn into philosophical debate regarding zionism etc

I think we were in vehement agreement all along...

funny how the only way you could make your argument was by stating they weren't cheering in NYC, but they damn sure were in Palestine. once again intellectual honesty from a liberal asshole shines through.

so were employees of the Israeli gov't, Americans in neo-nazi organizations and militias, etc etc etc .... what's your point?

The New Nazis. Steve Malzberg, Tuesday, June 18, 2002.

When I wander into the entrance of Jerusalem, I turn into a suicide warrior, I turn into a suicide warrior, in battle dress, in battle dress, in battle dress. Thank you. – an 8-year-old girl shown on Palestinian TV on a show considered to be equal to our "Sesame Street"
Currently there are 19 dead (I never include the bomber along with his victims) and over 40 wounded. Many are children. The bus was packed with students. That's precisely why it was targeted. The goal of these subhuman monsters is primarily to kill Jews. The Jews of choice are women and children.
Just what exactly is going on here? That's easy. We are all witnessing an attempt by the Arab world governments in general, and the Palestinian Authority in particular, to finish the job that Hitler started. Six million is not enough for these New Nazis; they want the rest to disappear as well.

Let's suppose for a moment that instead of 70 homicide bombings there had been 70 instances of mass kidnappings. For example, instead of seeking out civilian-filled places to blow up, what if the terrorists simply went to these places and forced dozens of women and children into several vehicles and took them away into the West Bank or the Gaza Strip?

Let's suppose that once there, the hostages were hustled into small makeshift gas chambers that were strategically located throughout the civilian populations, similar to the way the bomb factories are distributed there.

Let's suppose that instead of being blown up, these Israeli captives were gassed to death in those small gas chambers. Hundreds of them in 70 different incidents over the course of 21 months. Would we then call these terrorists and those that support them what they really are? Would we hesitate for a moment to call them Nazis?

So what's the difference between gassing these innocent Jews and blowing them up?

The answer is that there is no difference.

The Arab world governments and specifically the Palestinian Authority are raising and supporting the new wave of Nazis. They are out to kill the Jews, and they believe that they will go to heaven for it.

The father of the Nazi who blew up the bus today in Jerusalem told Reuters that he was "very happy that my son was the bomber."

How about the words of this proud mom. Her name is Naima al Obeid. Her 23-year-old son, Mahmoud, was shot dead after killing two Israelis in Tel Avivn 2 weeks ago. Before he left to go Jew hunting, his mommy made a video with him in which she told him, "G-d willing, you will succeed. May every bullet hit its target, and may G-d give you martyrdom. This is the best day of my life."

Sick, you say? Try this. When she was asked about the killing of Israeli women and children, Mama Nazi replied, "The women and children are also Jews. And I want to tell Jewish mothers: Take your children and run from here because you will never be safe. We believe our sons go to heaven when they are martyred and when your sons die, they go to hell."

There are nine more little Nazis-in-waiting at home with mama.

And then there's Mariam Farhat. Her Nazi son Mohammed broke into a study hall in Haifa in March. He used grenades and automatic rifles instead of gas, and he killed five Israeli students and wounded 23 before he could be stopped.

Here's what his Nazi mama had to say to the camera: "When I see all the Jews in Palestine killed, that will be enough for me. I wish he will kill as many of them as he can, so they will be scared."

It's really no wonder that these people think this way. Just read, look at or listen to the state-run Arab media and you get a handbook on how to create today's New Nazi.

Saudi TV features a little girl being asked by the interviewer about the Jews. "They are monkeys and apes," she says.

Another Saudi hit shows a man claiming to be a psychiatrist telling the interviewer about the thrill of blowing yourself up. "Counting down – 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2 – and when he gets to 1 and pushes the button, that's the height of euphoria."

Saudi newspapers tell the Arab world that Jews use human blood to make pastries.

Palestinian Authority TV isn't any better. In a scene dated Dec.14, 1994, a young Palestinian man is shown repeatedly stabbing a Jewish man in a car stopped in the West Bank

Palestinian TV broadcasts a sermon given at a mosque. "They are all liars. They must all be massacred. They must all be killed. Have no pity for them. Wherever they are, wherever you meet them … kill the Jews!"

Still another sermon on PA TV, as a young child is shown listening intently: "Bless those who put the belt around his waist or his sons and enter deeply in the Jewish community and say Allah is great. As the building collapsed on the heads of the Jews ..

Then there's the Palestinian Authority TV version of our own "Sesame Street." Here young children are shown getting up in front of other youngsters and performing: "Each and every part of your soul. I have drenched with all my blood, and we shall march as warriors ..."

Another child takes over: "… When I wander into the entrance of Jerusalem, I turn into a suicide warrior, I turn into a suicide warrior, in battle dress, in battle dress, in battle dress."

The child then says, "Thank you," and the teacher shouts, "Bravo! Bravo!" as the students applaud wildly.

Could Hitler have done it any better?

"I made them a stadium in the middle of the camp"



I entered Jenin, driven by madness, by desperation, in the worst condition
possible.

I told my wife: "If anything happens to me, at least someone will take care of
you".

The funny bit was, I didn't even know how to operate the D-9.

Within two hours, they taught me to drive forwards, and make a flat surface.

I tied the 'Beitar' football team flag to the back of the bulldozer and told them: "Move away, let me work.".

For three days, I just erased and erased

I kept drinking whisky to fight off fatigue

I didn't see dead bodies under the blade of the D-9, but I don't care if there
where any.

By Tsadok Yeheskeli,Yediot Aharonot.

Moshe Nissim, nicknamed "Kurdi Bear(1)", the D-9 operator who became the terror of the Jenin refugee camp inhabitants, speaks with no censorship about his time of glory.

"I entered Jenin driven by madness, by desperation, I felt I have nothing to loose, That even if I 'get it', no big deal.

I told my wife: "If anything happens to me, at least someone will take care of you!".

I started my reserve service, in the worst conditions possible. Maybe this is why I didn't give a damn. Not about explosive charges, not about gun fire.

"My life was in deep shit for the past one and a half years. For almost half a year I am suspended from work as a senior inspector in the Jerusalem municipality.

I worked there for 17 years, till that cursed day, January the 20th, exactly my 40th birthday, when the police came and arrested me.

They said that I and my colleagues in the inspection unit are suspected for being bribed by contractors and other business owners, that in fact, we are a corrupted bunch.

"This is a terrible injustice. I am a very friendly guy, and in this job you mix with people you inspect. But bribery? Me?

I am in debt for hundreds of thousands of Shekels long before all this story. Had I taken bribes, I would have money, but I couldn't even pay the lawyer. Since then I am suspended. My wife was fired as well, and I have four children to keep.

"This was not the first blow. A few months earlier, I was injured badly in my back, my wife was fired, and my son got run over and had to be operated to save his leg.

Today he is OK, but his big dream, and mine, that he will once be a player in the Beitar Jerusalem team, this dream is probably gone forever. Pity. He was really talented. I have already promised him to get him into the children's Beitar team.

"For two years, it is just one blow after another. I haven't got a cent, but I love people. I cannot be indifferent. Every holiday, I distribute food packages for the needy. The same at Passover. I ran around like crazy. And just then, I started getting phone calls from the guys: "Kurdi", they said, "we are all being recruited to do reserve service, but you are not called."

"Truth is, that I understood my commanders. Hey, I've been doing my reserves duty for 16 years now, and I was useless. I did nothing but make trouble.

"During my obligatory Military service(2) I was constantly sentenced to prison, because I refused to be a vehicle electrician. In my unit as well, in the bulldozer unit, I was supposed to be an electrician, but actually, I did nothing, just messed around. I would come to the unit, and immediately open a card table, open a bottle. If any officer would dare send me to guard duty, I would send him first. Kurdi always did his thing.

If I felt like going to a Beitar football match, or going home, no one could stop me. I would just start the car and go.

"Truth is, they didn't even know me. When I am given responsibility, I can act differently, In the "Versailles" disaster(3) I was in charge of all the inspection team on location. When I was seen by one of the guys of my military unit, he was shocked.

He said: "In the army you can't tie your shoelaces, and here you are a big chief!"

The truth is that when I finally decide to do something, I am one stubborn guy. I will go for it till the end. This time was one of those moments. What haven't I done for them to take me? I sent the guys to twist the battalion commander's arm, I phoned the company commander, I drove them mad. "I promise to work", I pleaded with the battalion commander. Finally, he agreed to give me a chance.

"I said to myself: "Kurdi, you can't let them down. No more running wild!".



The speaker is Moshe Nissim, AKA "Moshe Nissim Beitar Jerusalem".

In the Jenin refugee camp, he was called, over the military radio: "Kurdi Bear".

Kurdi, because this is the name he insisted on. Bear, after the D-9 he was driving, demolishing house after house.

There was not one soldier in Jenin that did not hear this name. Kurdi Bear was considered the most devoted, brave and probably the most destructive operator.

A man, that the Jenin camp inquiry committee, would want very much to have a word with.

For 75 hours, with no break, he sat on the huge bulldozer, charges exploding around him, and erased house after house.

His story, which he tells openly and with no inhibitions, is far from being a regular war myth. Medals, so it seems, will not be awarded for it. (Actually, his company was later awarded a citation for outstanding service.)

The experience

"The funny bit is, I didn't even know how to operate the D-9. I have never been an operator. But I begged them to give me a chance to learn.

Before we went into Shekhem (Nablus), I asked some of the guys to teach me. They sat with me for two hours. They taught me how to drive forwards and make a flat surface.

"I took it on with no problem and told them: 'That's it. Move aside and let me work.'.

This is what happened in Jenin as well. I have never demolished a house before, or even a wall. I got into the D-9 with a friend of mine, a Yemenite. I let him work for an hour, and then told him, 'OK. I got the idea.'

"But the real thing started the day 13 of our soldiers were killed up that alley in the Jenin refugee camp.

"When they brought us in, I knew that nobody wanted to work with me. They were afraid to be with me on the bulldozer. Not only did I have a reputation of a troublemaker, but also of a man who knows no fear, and they were right about that. I really have no fear. They knew I had no fear, that I don't give a damn, and that I can go anywhere, without asking questions, without an escort of tanks or APC's or anything. Once, in Jenin, I left the tank that escorted us everywhere. I wanted to have a spin around the camp, see what's going on. Gadi, the other operator who was with me, nearly fainted. He started going mad: 'Get back,' he shouted, 'we have no escort!', but I had to get to know the place better, to find an exit, just in case we needed one. I was not afraid to die. At least I was insured. This would have helped my family.

The Flag

"When we got into the camp, the D-9's were already waiting. They where hauled from Shekhem (Nablus). I got the big D-9 L, me and the Yemenite, my partner. First thing I did was to tie the Beitar team flag. I had it prepared in advance. I wanted the family to be able to identify me. I told the family and the kids: 'you will see my bulldozer on television. When you see the Beitar flag, that will be me'. And this is exactly what happened.

"I know it sounds crazy, but for me, to hang this flag was completely natural. Like eating. Here, look at this Beitar pendant around my neck. It never comes off. Not off me, and not off the kids. I carry the Beitar flags everywhere I go. Look at my car, all covered with these flags. This is the way I am. I always go to the Beitar matches, in a Beitar colored Galabia (an Arab man's dress), and a big drum of the Kurds from the C. Once, after our first national championship, I took a ride on the roof of a car, carrying the drum, all the way to Jerusalem.

"Beitar is a kink in my brain. There is no other way to explain it. After my family, it is the most important thing in my life, and the only thing that can kill me. In Jenin, I was not scared for a moment, but I cannot go to the Beitar matches for half a year now. The suspense kills me, and I am constantly afraid of getting a heart attack. Sometimes, I can walk around 'Teddy' (the main Jerusalem stadium) with a ticket in my hand, and I can't go in. In one match, in Beit Shean, I fainted after they scored a goal. I know how this sounds, but that's the way it is. Incurable. At home, they know better than to talk to me if Beitar lost a match.

"So now you understand why the Beitar flag was on the bulldozer in Jenin. Someone told me that my commander wanted to take it off. But no way. If I had a say in the matter, there would be a Beitar flag on the top of the mosque in the camp. I tried convincing the Golani (an infantry brigade of the Israeli army) officer I worked with to let me go up there and hang it, but he refused. He said I would be shot if I tried. Pity.

"The flag was the most outstanding object in the camp. Reservists who went home on short leave came back with Beitar flags, just to imitate me. It made a lot of noise, my flag. The Golani soldiers were stunned. 'You brought Beitar here,' they told me. And I said: 'I am going to make a Teddy stadium here. Don't you worry.'.

"On the radio, they wanted to call me 'Moshe-Bear', but I insisted on Kurdi. I told the Golanis, I am Kurdi, and I won't answer if you call me by any other name.' That is how 'Kurdi Bear' was born. This is my name, and I am stubborn.

"In the reserves, they already got used to my signature: 'Moshe Nissim Beitar Jerusalem'.For a while they asked me to stop it, but finally they just gave up.

Going in

"The moment I drove the bulldozer into the camp, something switched in my head. I went mad. All the desperation, caused by my personal condition, just vanished at once. All that remained was the anger over what had happened to our guys. Till now I am convinced, and so are the rest of us, that if we were let into the camp earlier, with all our might, twenty-four soldiers would not have been killed in this camp.

"The moment I went into the camp, for the first time, I just thought of how to help these soldiers. These fighters. Children the age of my son. I couldn't grasp how they worked there, were a charge blows up on you, with every step you take.

"With the first mission I was given, to open a track inside the camp, I understood what kind of hell this was.

"My first mission, voluntarily, was to bring the soldiers food. I was told: 'The only way to get food in there, is with the D-9'. They haven't eaten in two days. You couldn't poke your nose out. I filled the bulldozer till the roof, and drove the bulldozer right up to the door of their post, so that they would not have to take even one step outside their shelter. One step was enough in order to lose an arm or a leg.

"You could not tell where the charges were. They (the Palestinian fighters) dug holes in the ground and planted charges. You would just start driving, and you would hit a 3" pipe, welded on both ends. As you touch them, they go off. Everything was booby trapped. Even the walls of houses. Just touch them, and they blow up. Or, they would shoot you the moment you entered. There were charges in the roads, under the floor, between the walls. As you make an opening, something goes off. I saw a bird cage blow up in some pet shop, where we opened a track. A flying birdcage. I felt sorry for the birds. They just planted charges everywhere.

"For me, in the D-9, it was nothing. I didn't mind. You would just hear the explosions.

Even 80 Kilos of explosives only rattled the bulldozer's blade. It weighs three and a half tons(4). It's a monster. A tank can get hit in the belly. It's belly is sensitive. With the D-9, you should only look out for RPG's or 50 Kilos of explosives on the roof. But I didn't think about it then. The only thing that mattered was that these soldiers must not risk themselves just to eat or drink something."

"I fell in love with those children. I was willing to do with my bulldozer anything they would ask for. I begged for work: 'Let me finish another house, open another track.'

They, in return, protected me. I would leave the bulldozer without weapons, nothing. Just walked in. They told me I am mad, but I said: 'Leave me alone. Anyhow, the armored vest will not save me.' This is how I worked. Even without a shirt. Half naked.

"Do you know how I held out for 75 hours? I didn't get off the bulldozer. I had no problem of fatigue, because I drank whisky all the time. I had a bottle in the bulldozer at all times. I had put them in my bag in advance. Everybody else took clothes, but I knew what was waiting for me there, so I took whisky and something to munch on.

"Clothes? Didn't need any. A towel was enough. Anyhow I could not leave the bulldozer. You open the door, and get a bullet. For 75 hours I didn't think about my life at home, about all the problems. Everything was erased. Sometimes images of terror attacks in Jerusalem crossed my mind. I witnessed some of them."





The purity of our weapons

"What is 'opening a track'? You erase buildings. On both sides. There is no other choice, because the bulldozer was much wider than their alleys. But I am not looking for excuses or anything. You must 'shave' them. I didn't give a damn about demolishing their houses, because it saved the lives of our soldiers. I worked where our soldiers were slaughtered. They didn't tell all the truth about what happened. they drilled holes in the walls, holes for gun barrels. Anyone who escaped the charges, was shot through these holes.

"I had no mercy for anybody. I would erase anyone with the D-9, just so that our soldiers won't expose themselves to danger. That's what I told them. I was afraid for our soldiers. You could see them sleeping together, 40 soldiers in a house, all crowded. My heart went out for them. This is why I didn't give a damn about demolishing all the houses I've demolished - and I have demolished plenty. By the end, I built the 'Teddy' football stadium there.

"Difficult? No way. You must be kidding. I wanted to destroy everything. I begged the officers, over the radio, to let me knock it all down; from top to bottom. To level everything. It's not as if I wanted to kill. Just the houses. We didn't harm those who came out of the houses we had started to demolish, waving white flags. We screwed just those who wanted to fight.

"No one refused an order to knock down a house. No such thing. When I was told to bring down a house, I took the opportunity to bring down some more houses; not because I wanted to - but because when you are asked to demolish a house, some other houses usually obscure it, so there is no other way. I would have to do it even if I didn't want to. They just stood in the way. If I had to erase a house, come hell or high water - I would do it. And believe me, we demolished too little. The whole camp was littered with detonation charges. What actually saved the lives of the Palestinians themselves, because if they had returned to their homes, they would blow up.

"For three days, I just destroyed and destroyed. The whole area. Any house that they fired from came down. And to knock it down, I tore down some more. They were warned by loudspeaker to get out of the house before I come, but I gave no one a chance. I didn't wait. I didn't give one blow, and wait for them to come out. I would just ram the house with full power, to bring it down as fast as possible. I wanted to get to the other houses. To get as many as possible. Others may have restrained themselves, or so they say. Who are they kidding? Anyone who was there, and saw our soldiers in the houses, would understand they were in a death trap. I thought about saving them. I didn't give a damn about the Palestinians, but I didn't just ruin with no reason. It was all under orders.

"Many people where inside houses we stto demolish. They would come out of the houses we where working on. I didn't see, with my own eyes, people dying under the blade of the D-9. and I didn't see house falling down on live people. But if there were any, I wouldn't care at all. I am sure people died inside these houses, but it was difficult to see, there was lots of dust everywhere, and we worked a lot at night. I found joy with every house that came down, because I knew they didn't mind dying, but they cared for their homes. If you knocked down a house, you buried 40 or 50 people for generations. If I am sorry for anything, it is for not tearing the whole camp down.

Satisfaction

"I didn't stop for a moment. Even when we had a two-hour break, I insisted on going on. I prepared a ramp, to destroy a four- story building. Once I steered sharply to the right, and a whole wall came down. Suddenly I heard shouting on the radio: 'Kurdi, watch it! It is us!' Turns out there where our guys inside, and they forgot to tell me.

"I had plenty of satisfaction. I really enjoyed it. I remember pulling down a wall of a four-story building. It came crashing down on my D-9. My partner screamed at me to reverse, but I let the wall come down on us. We would go for the sides of the buildings, and then ram them. If the job was to hard, we would ask for a tank shell.

"I couldn't stop. I wanted to work and work. There was this Golani officer who gave us orders by radio - I drove him mad. I kept begging for more and more missions. On Sunday, after the fighting was over, we got orders to pull our D-9's out of the area, and stop working on our 'football stadium', because the army didn't want the cameras and press to see us working. I was really upset, because I had plans to knock down the big sign at the entrance of Jenin - three poles with a picture of Arafat. But on Sunday, they pulled us away before I had time to do it.

"I bitched them to give me more work. I would tell them, over the radio: 'Why are you letting me rest? I want more work!' All this time, I was really sick. I had fever. I got back from Jenin wiped out. Torn to bits. The next day, I went up again. One of the guys was ill, and I volunteered to help. I got back there. The battalion-commander was in shock when he saw me. The other operators all cracked up and needed rest, but I refused to leave. I wanted more.

"I had lots of satisfaction in Jenin, lots of satisfaction. It was like getting all the 18 years of doing nothing - into three days. The soldiers came up to me and said: 'Kurdi, thanks a lot. Thanks a lot'. And I hurt for the Thirteen(5). If we had moved into the building where they were ambushed, we would have buried all those Palestinians alive.

" I kept thinking of our soldiers. I didn't feel sorry for all those Palestinians who were left homeless. I just felt sorry for their children, who were not guilty. There was one wounded child, who was shot by Arabs. A Golani paramedic came down and changed his bandages, till he was evacuated. We took care of them, of the children. The soldiers gave them candy. But I had no mercy for the parents of these children.

I remembered the picture on television, of the mother who said she will bear children so that they will explode in Tel Aviv. I asked the Palestinian women I saw there: 'Aren't you ashamed?'

"After I finished the work, I got out of the bulldozer, piled up some clothes on the side of the road, and fell asleep. They looked after me, so that I won't get run over by a tank or something. All the fatigue of the past 75 hours just landed on me. There was a lot of excitement in what I did. The fact that I did a good job operating the bulldozer, the soldiers who came to me, after it was all over, and said: 'thank you'. This was enough for me. I miss them. I've invited all of them for Kubeh at my place. Their commander, Kobi, the one I worked with throughout the 75 hours, was amazed by the invitation.

'Do you want the entire company to come over to your house?'

I told him: 'As far as I am concerned, bring the whole battalion.'

I phoned my mother, from the D-9, and told her that the whole battalion was coming. She said: 'no sweat'. I am waiting for them".

Politics

"I know many people will think that my attitude stems from me being a 'Beitar' and 'Likud' member(6). It is true. I am heavily on the right. But this has nothing to do with what I have done in Jenin. I have many Arab friends. And I say, if a man has done nothing - don't touch him. A man who has done something - hang him, as far as I am concerned. Even a pregnant woman - shoot her without mercy, if she has a terrorist behind her. This is the way I thought in Jenin. I answered to no one. Didn't give a damn. The main thing was to help our soldiers. If I had been given three weeks, I would have had more fun. That is, If they would let me tear the whole camp down. I have no mercy.

"All the human rights organizations and the UN that messed with Jenin, and turned what we have done there into such an issue, are just bullshitting, lying. Lots of the walls in those houses just exploded by themselves, at our slightest touch. It is true, though, that during the last days we smashed the camp. And yes, it was justified. They mowed our soldiers down. They had a chance to surrender.

"No one expressed any reservations against doing it. Not only me. Who would dare speak? If anyone would as much as open his mouth, I would have buried him under the D-9. This is the reason I didn't mind seeing the hundred by hundred (7)we've flattened. As far as I am concerned, I left them with a football stadium, so they can play. This was our gift to the camp. Better than killing them. They will sit quietly. Jenin will not return to what it use to be."

Epilog

Two days after getting out of Jenin, 'Kurdi Bear' was admitted into hospital, suffering from pneumonia. As it turned out, the 75 straight hours in the D-9 took their toll. Some days after he had returned home, a phone call woke him up in the middle of the night.

"I got home one night, and for some reason, I couldn't sleep. I was uncomfortable.

Till 4 AM I just wandered about, suddenly the phone rings: 'Are you Nati's father?'

I sked what happened. 'Get over here, to the hospital.' 'Tell me the truth' I told her.

'I must know'. She said that: 'Things are not good. Come'. I speeded to Tel Hashomer hospital. A nurse and a social worker waited for me there. They wanted to tell me that my son had died. That he came in, dead already. Finished. Serious brain damage. They had planned to ask me to donate his organs.

"Suddenly she ran to the surgery, came back and said that they drained blood from his brain, and that she hopes he will survive. We will know within 72 hours. We hurried to get an amulet from Rabbi Caduri. It helped with the Beitar team, when we almost dropped to a lower league. On Friday, they called us back to the hospital. They were in shock: The kid just tore the respiration tubes off. He woke up."

20 year old Nati Nissim is lying on a bed, in the fifth floor of the Beit Levinstein hospital, draped from head to toe in the black- yellow uniform of the Beitar football team. "Daddy," he says suddenly "Don't forget. I need to get to the semi finals." Kurdi Bear, with a bristly chin and red eyes, freezes for a second, and tries to get his son back into reality. "Nati", he says softly, "I've already told you, Beitar has lost."

Nati laughs. "No way! I am going to the match!" he says and tries to get up. The father suppresses his frustration, gives up the struggle. The accident has caused the son to lose his short-term memory. Just like in the movie "Momento", he can recall, with astonishing precision, any Beitar goal going ten years back or even more, but forgets within minutes who he is talking with. "Why am I here?" he asks his parents again and again, and bows his head with embarrassment when an acquaintance reminds him of a conversation they had just the day before.

Kurdi sits in the ward and tries to look as optimistic as possible. The doctors are talking about a lengthy recovery process. They say that there is no telling if and when Nati's memory will return to normal. The financial situation is not brieither. He and his wife, Ronit, can hardly buy gas for his battered Subaru that tries to make the journey from the Castel neighborhood to the hospital. Kurdi wants to build himself a tent in front of the hospital. For the time being, he sleeps in the car.

"Jenin has strengthened me," he says. "It helped me forget my troubles. I had hoped it would be some turning point, until this hit me. But what happened to Nati taught me what really is important. I am living now for my son. The rest is really not important."

The friends from his reserves unit are helping him.

"He stood up when it really counted. He was there, in the most trying moment", says Haim Tamam, a soldier serving with him. "No one has functioned like he has. And I don't know if any of us could go through the nightmare he went through without putting a bullet through his head. We are all amazed by him."

Yeffet Damti, his bulldozer partner from Jenin, says that one thing is certain: "On the next mission, I am only going with Kurdi".

Kurdi, for his part, thanks his commanders that gave him the chance.

For the time being, they are wrapping him with attention and sympathy. They came here, to the hospital, just to be with him. Just so he won't be lonely. They are talking about raising funds to help him. When they meet him next to his son's bed, back come the memories from those 75 hours.

The chats around the son's bed continue till the management of the hospital called and begged them to stop bragging about destroying Jenin. There are Arab therapists who might be hurt, and one of the Arab patients has already complained.

----------------------------------

GUSH SHALOM COMMENTS:

This is the incredible, self-told Story of Moshe Nissim, a fanatic football fan

and a permanent troublemaker, who begged his commanders in the reserves unit for a chance to take part in "the action".

By "action" he was referring to the wide scale destruction carried out by the Israeli army in many Palestinian locations, especially in the Jenin Refugee camp.

He was sent into Jenin, riding a 60 ton demolition bulldozer - and equipped with 16 years of pent-up personal frustration, plenty of whisky and only two hours of training on that armored tool.

"Enough training to drive forwards and make a flat surface", as he himself testifies in the interview.

His story may be extreme, and this man must answer to many serious questions, but Moshe Nissim is not much different from thousands of other frustrated and violent football fans, who terrorize cities in Europe after a football match.

But then again, Of course, it is unconceivable, that the British army would send a drunken and frustrated Manchester fan into Belfast riding a D-9 bulldozer.

Therefore, the really troubling questions must be directed at the system that sent him into Jenin on this mission of destruction. This system is the Israeli army.

What kind of army puts a 60 ton, multi-million dollar demolishing bulldozer in the hands of such a person, who has not operated one before?
How could his rampage go on, without being stopped by any of the officers, at any rank?
How can such an army insist it is the "most moral army in the world"?
Does this interview shed more light on Israel's refusal to have it's actions in Jenin investigated?
What did happen in Jenin?

We hope that after reading this sickening interview, you will find ways of sending these questions, and others you might have, to the Israeli government through it's ambassadors, to the Israeli army, who, we are sure, will not tolerate it's fine tools being used in such a brutal and unlawful manner.

Why do Palestinians kill Kids"

TEL AVIV ( June 1) - One year after the terrorist attack at the Dolphinarium complex in Tel Aviv, hundreds gathered next to the site of the suicide bombing, where a monument was dedicated in memory of the 21 victims.
Those in attendance included families and friends of the deceased, youths wounded in the attack, politicians, and diplomats.

"A Palestinian Genocidal suicide bomber chose to murder as many innocent teenagers as possible. The Jews he butchered, wanted to live and play and dance.
Here, in front of the sea's waves, their lives ended," said Tel Aviv Mayor Ron Huldai. To the families, Huldai added: "We go home, but you return home where there is someone missing."

Finance Minister Silvan Shalom said, we must stand up to the Palestinians angels of death. Silvan Shalom went on to say, the Europeans must stop appeasing the butchers of our teenagers.

Internal Security Minister Uzi Landau said, The barbarity of the Tel Aviv disco bombing, was a murderous act that reminds all Israelis, the evil we are dealing with. The Palestinians by targeting youngsters. The Palestinians set a new low for ruthless cruelty. Between the speeches, young friends of the victims spoke and sang about their losses. "All that is left now is a terrible, shocking stillness.

There is no more laughter and nowhere to go," one friend sang to the audience. A young violinist played a well-known song, "I Have Friends," and many audience members began to cry as the names of the victims wereread following the piece. Sergei Bogoliubov, who laid a wreath for his friend, Yelena Osache, sat with his friends next to the stage. "It has been very hard for us," he said.

While friends, families, and dignitaries laid wreaths, many young people gathered next to the discotheque entrance, where the explosion occurred. Yulia Bilzer, a friend of one of the victims, said: "This month feels very long. We have spent the time visiting our wounded friends in the hospitals." Several of the wounded youth came to the ceremony. One young girl, wearing a neck brace, screamed! Why do Arabs slaughter teenagers and children. Why Why! This was her 20th visit to the site of the attack.

un-hunh. Did you know that more Palestinian children have been killed than ALL Israeli casualties, combined? Oh, whoops, I suppose I'm anti-semite for saying that ....

Don't you think it would help the newcomers if you kept with one name, nessie? Just wondering.....

a bit hypocritical don't you think tom?
it's not who it is that matters, but what's said. Things like childish name-calling and kooky rants are irrelevant. If you have a good point, you ought to be able to talk about it with people who don't resort to such idiocy.

I don't recall the South African blacks murdering the South African whites during apartheid.

And very few Germans were killed by Jews during the Holocaust, compartively speaking, even if you talk about Warsaw.

But Israel has suffered a third of the murders it suffered from these cuddly little Palestinians.

Palestinians who were offered their own state in 1948, but rejected it, preferring to kill Jews.

Palestinians who were offered their own state again in 2000, but rejected it, preferring to kill Jews.

These are hardly the "victims" of Apartheid or Nazi Germany. Neither the South African Blacks, nor the Jews under Nazi rule were offered a state of their own, of any size or contingency.

It also find it funny. Over 2 years, Israel kills 2,000 Palestinians, Palestinians in revolt that send suicide bombers, rocks, bullets, and mortar shells at Israel, killing 600, maiming thousands more. Liberals condemn Israel.

Saddam Hussein murders 100,000 kurds in a couple DAYS with poison gas. Liberals defend Saddam Hussein.

Why does no one care about those kurds?

'cause they aren't sexy enough to blow people up.

Twisted, twisted logic.

"I don't recall the South African blacks murdering the South African whites during apartheid."

Guess you didn't follow that conflict too closely. Ever hear of 'necklacing'? Here's a link on terror in S.A.
http://ligstryders.tripod.com/roca/96aprrr.htm

"And very few Germans were killed by Jews during the Holocaust, compartively speaking, even if you talk about Warsaw."
If the Jews had known what was going on, that would be different. But they were tricked. Death camps were disguised as labour camps "for their own protection"; a band even greeting newcomers. Alot of people think that they knew what was going on, and some did, but it was too unbelievable for most. If you read any accounts of the Warsaw Ghetto you will know that letters were sent - obtained under coercion - to relatives in the ghetto from victims, saying that everything was just fine at the camps. Only when a scouting expedition was sent to one of the camps did the inhabitants believe and revolt.

"These are hardly the "victims" of Apartheid or Nazi Germany. Neither the South African Blacks, nor the Jews under Nazi rule were offered a state of their own, of any size or contingency."

Actually the system of apartheid *was* a system of separate states for blacks, known as 'homelands' , complete with borders which needed crossing. The blacks of south africa did not want 'homelands' they wanted their native land. As to 'size and contingency' did you see what was offerred at Camp David? It was a joke.
http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~cale/cs201/apartheid.hist.html

"It also find it funny. Over 2 years, Israel kills 2,000 Palestinians, Palestinians in revolt that send suicide bombers, rocks, bullets, and mortar shells at Israel, killing 600, maiming thousands more. Liberals condemn Israel."

hmmm. lets see. Israel killed the Palestinians without bombs, bullets, or shells? What did they do, round them up and gas them?

"Saddam Hussein murders 100,000 kurds in a couple DAYS with poison gas. Liberals defend Saddam Hussein."

No, they stand against war on the people of Iraq. There's a difference. Saddam is not the people of Iraq, he's just a single criminal. Would you consider Fisk a liberal? He's extremely critical of the treatment of Kurds by Iraq, Syria and Turkey. This is just a disingenious cartoon caricature of the anti-war position.

What is being objected to is the intentionally sloppy way of blaming all Jews for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The Nazi's do not care for distinctions since they object to Jews as a whole.

The Nazi's will never admit that Zionists are a complex lot with ideals that covers the spectrum -- that there are in fact pro-Palestinian Zionists and Zionist organizations. Nor will the Nazis ever admit that the bulk of Israeli and Palestinian people do not hate each other and wish to live in peace.

What the Nazis will repeat endlessly is that (virtually) all Jews are Zionists and that all Zionists are racist. For instance, whenever confronted with indisputable facts about progressive Zionism like B'Tselem (http://www.btselem.org) they will either ignore the evidence or charge the person or group with a more subtle form of racism (without any evidence to back their claim).

On the other hand, pro-Palestinians groups like LAW and PCHR work with and/or support Zionist organizations like B'Tselem because they truly care about the plight of the Palestinians. Furthermore, pro-Palestinians look for friends and allies within the Israeli camp to further their cause whereas Nazis want to harm the Palestinian cause by preventing such alliances -- they wish to see the cause "cut off their nose to spite their face.

Throwing around racist comments has never been a light matter in the United States -- it's symptomatic of deeper hatred and discriminatory behavior. Our forefathers worked very hard to open our society and I'll be damned if I let a bunch of red-faced Aryans close it back up again.

"What is being objected to is the intentionally sloppy way of blaming all Jews for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The Nazi's do not care for distinctions since they object to Jews as a whole."

that hasn't been done in this thread (yet, though I'm sure the trolls will take notice at some point) so I'm not sure who you're responding to. In point of fact, the whole thread has revolved around *rejecting* anti-zionism as being too much of a useless philosophical battle for pro-palestinians to really bother with ...

However, with respect to the Palestinians, this has been done *numerous* times in this thread. The Palestinians did this, the Palestinians did that. They're a people too, you know.

I didn't say it was being done in this thread, but it has been repeatedly in many, many threads still active on this comment board and across the Indymedia network. And your point about overly-broad statements made about Palestinians is equally valid.

As a group of conscientious and concerned activists, we should put to task anyone who intentionally engages in such distortions and educate those who do so in ignorance.

agreed, sort of. Do we really have time for that crap? People are dying. When we can, OK, but let's not get distracted or give these people a forum. We have to go above and beyond this, make it irrelevant.

agreed, sort of. Do we really have time for that crap? People are dying. When we can, OK, but let's not get distracted or give these people a forum. We have to go above and beyond this, make it irrelevant.

Verity - it's a bit arrogant to think that anything we do in this forum will stop people from dying. What we can do is promote and protect those people and organizations wanting an end the occupation and the birth of the Palestinian nation.

When we allow widespread distortions about Israelis, Palestinians, Jews, Muslims, Zionists, etc go unchallenged, in affect we tacitly accept the disinformation in our community. For those who came here to learn, or for those less sophisticated, this is an impression we can ill-afford to leave them with.

Consider the recent difficulties at IMCP -- the AIC, which seeks to promote peace and co-operative efforts among Isrealis and Palestinians, dropped their support in part because Indymedia forces behind the scenes did not want a partisan effort nor respect the ethos of the IMC movement. In turn, the IMCP forum slipped into a quagmire of grossly excessive racism (which would have been hidden onany other IMC) and as a result the IMCP today has no part in the peace initiatives or the preservation of human rights. How is that helping anyone?

Peace requires both parties and it does not serve us nor those involved to make one side or the other so singularly unacceptable, so symbolically monsterous, that cooperation between individuals and organizations is openly discouraged by the resonant tones of hate.

Hatred of Jews as a people is ugly and should never be tolerated for the simple reason that most Jews are probably apolitical and don't even know about Israeli atrocities (just like most Christians and Muslims in this country).

People should not be held responsible for a wrong unless they personally take part in them. To a lesser extent, knowing about a wrong and supporting it or turning a blind eye should also not be tolerated -- as many Germans and South Africans were seen as ugly for supporting their government's past policies.

In such circumstances, whites in South Africa who dissented against their government shone like candles in the darkness. Similarly, courageous Israeli activists like the late Israel Shahak -- who didn't have a racist fiber in him -- mark the way of the human spirit and possible hope for humanity.

If the truth were allowed to be seen, most people of this country (regardless of religion) would shun Israel and make it very difficult for our government to keep supporting it. This happened to East Timor. The US government aided Suharto who killed hundreds of thousands of people and the media suppressed it. The activist community rose up raising awareness to what was going on. The media was forced to give it some attention, and the US government was then forced to back down.

The same can be done with Israel.

But this is not possible of the media does not relent and keeps putting out pro-Israel propaganda and censoring the images that would turn most against the state of Isreal.

If, on the other hand, the Israelis show some courage and actually apologize for the wrongs committed and attempt to make serious reparations for the damage they've inflicted on so many people, then peace in the region might very well be possible. People react to such gestures; this is human nature. But conquest is also human nature, unfortunately, and often wins out over what's right.

The world is growing tired of this perpetual crisis and we as Americans keep it fuelled by our blind and unconditional support for Israel. It doesn't help when the world sees our politicians in Congress falling over themselves to see who can give Israel more aid even in the face of blatant atrocities.

If the Israelis have no intention of doing what is right, we should. The first step is to stop paying for it all. After that, there is not much else we need do except allow the international consensus to proceed unhindered.

"?", have you ever heard of a thing called flamebaiting? I agree, things like this have to be challenged. But it's a judgement call. Alot of the time, and IMCP is a particularly good case for this, dignifying some of these things with a response just feeds the conflict. What I'm saying is at times, going above it works better, just letting it wail and gnash its teeth alone in the darkness often makes it irrelevant. Now sometimes I'll say it is necessary to give a response, and I would say you make this call on the basis of the sophistication of the hatred. If something is really obvious and blatant I think responding to it is pretty useless, its obvious that its not something that can be fought with a rational argument. A mass show of rejection is good, but often that doesn't happen online and it will just be one-on-one, a trap of distraction. Some guy who just comes in here and throws out a few blatant racist flames isn't going to influence anyone with a brain, not when his comments stand next to good discussion on the problem.
Now, there is the other side of the coin: sophisticated racism. When someone takes a news article that was at first reasonable, and then they just replace "Israeli government" with "Israeli people" that is a case where you *need* to point it out. Likewise with articles which state that the Palestinian people all feel a certain way or whatever (as if they are a hive mind or something). But as for the plain old dumb racist stuff, I think getting drawn into it can be a mistake and a trap. You're better off just making sure the discussion gets continued, which ensures it gets highlighted as a stupid response to an intelligent discussion.

"?", have you ever heard of a thing called flamebaiting? I agree, things like this have to be challenged. But it's a judgement call. Alot of the time, and IMCP is a particularly good case for this, dignifying some of these things with a response just feeds the conflict. What I'm saying is at times, going above it works better, just letting it wail and gnash its teeth alone in the darkness often makes it irrelevant. Now sometimes I'll say it is necessary to give a response, and I would say you make this call on the basis of the sophistication of the hatred. If something is really obvious and blatant I think responding to it is pretty useless, its obvious that its not something that can be fought with a rational argument. A mass show of rejection is good, but often that doesn't happen online and it will just be one-on-one, a trap of distraction. Some guy who just comes in here and throws out a few blatant racist flames isn't going to influence anyone with a brain, not when his comments stand next to good discussion on the problem.
Now, there is the other side of the coin: sophisticated racism. When someone takes a news article that was at first reasonable, and then they just replace "Israeli government" with "Israeli people" that is a case where you *need* to point it out. Likewise with articles which state that the Palestinian people all feel a certain way or whatever (as if they are a hive mind or something). But as for the plain old dumb racist stuff, I think getting drawn into it can be a mistake and a trap. You're better off just making sure the discussion gets continued, which ensures it gets highlighted as a stupid response to an intelligent discussion.

but it isn't uglier than hatred of any other people.

I've seen this time and time again. I doubt very seriously the original poster said this.

"The above" refers to a comment that was removed. It was anti-Semitic. Anti-Semitic language will not be permitted here. Criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic. Condemning all Jews is. So is the use of racial slurs. Racial slurs are not permitted here. Racism is not welcome on SF-IMC. Racists are not welcome here either. They can either go away peaceably or they can get thrown out. Either way is fine with us.

This is not censorship. This is editing. This is not a free speech issue. Racists are perfectly free to post their despicable venom somewhere else on the net. We wont try to stop them. We couldn’t stop them if we wanted to. But they can’t do it here. That we can stop. That we will stop. We are fed up with these scum. Aren’t you? If you are, perhaps you should consider going to their own forums, BBSs and chat rooms and telling them about it.

"editor", which is really nessie, ( a helpful hint for all the newcomers) is absolutely full of shit. This place is littered with racist jew haters and Nazi types, traitors, knee jerk liars, Greenpeace shills who want to see the happy darkies in Africa die, so greenpeace's ideaology can remain intact.

Don't be fooled, newcomers. "editor" sports a brown shirt.

Thank you for being proactive about this kind of stuff. Those kinds of posts serve no purpose but to sow confusion and are grating to have to see.

If you interpret constructive critisizm as antisemitism,,, you will never grow out of your self perpetuated misery!
Grow up and learn to accept the truth with dignity as you join the rest of humanity who will treat you as adults and no longer with kids gloves... Comprned>

Big surprise. The trolls - the very ones who rave like lunatics about free speech when they get edited - are now trying to invoke Godwin's law and shut down debate on this subject. Well, go over them folx, this won't cut any mustard unless you let it.

You won't be able to help yourself, no more than the rest of the lever pulling chimps around here. You live for the trolls and you know it. The stopwatch is running. Pull the lever.

Putin made a bargon with Bush that if the U.S. turns a blind eye on Goergia the U.S. can invade Iraq!It looks like the "new" Russia is just as bad or worse then the old one.Russia has been a bully ever since the soviet brake-up and its seems like it's getting worse.The war on terror has given a green light on Russia to fight "terrorists"(that were resitance fighters before 911)in Chechnyia and who knows how many innocents have been in the cross-fire.
This is a bargon made in hell and I would like to see indymedia make this an issue.

We provide you with the place to do it. You make it an issue.

I don't know who is what any more. I know the troll has asked you a dozen times about the names you use, and you won't answer the question. Maybe hes right afterall. Just what's your game, nessie?

I use a variety of names, one of which is "nessie," none of which is real.

So what?