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remote controlled 9-11 planes

by hahani
ok trolls, blast away
WHO IS THE ENEMY?

Following is a summary of the near-unanimous views of the
assembled military and civilian pilots concerning certain
critical factors relating to the WTC/Pentagon hit of 9-11
Troubling questions arose about the alleged pilot-hijackers
of the four aircraft, who were supposedly trained on Cessna
aircraft over the past year at fields in Florida and
Oklahoma. One General officer remarked, "I seriously
question whether these novices could have located a target
dead-on 200 miles removed from takeoff point...-- much less
controlled the flight and mastered the intricacies of 11FR
(instrument flight rules) -- and all accomplished in 45
minutes."

The extremely skillful maneuvering of the three aircraft at
near mach speeds, each unerringly hitting their targets,
was superb. As one Air Force officer -- a veteran of over
100 sorties over North Vietnam -- explained, "Those
birds (commercial airliners) either had a crack fighter
pilot in the left seat, or they were being maneuvered by
remote control."

Part 2

: Another pilot warned that "we had better consider whether
: electro-magnetic pulse or radio frequency weapons were used
: from a command and control platform hovering over the
: Eastern Seaboard... I'm talkin' AWACS."

: Another comment: "If there was an AWACS on station over
: the targeted area, did it have a Global Hawk capability? I
: mean, could it convert the commercial jets to robotic
: flying missiles?

: A hotly debated question: Who would be in command of such an
: Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS)? Were they
: Chinese -- Russians -- Saudis -- Israelis -- NATO ? All of
: these countries possess AWACS-type aircraft. All (except
: the Saudis) have the capability to utilize electro-magnetic
: pulsing (EMP) to knock out on-board flight controls and
: communications of targeted aircraft, and then, to fly them
: by remote control.

: One of the Air Force officers explained that we had already
: flown a robot plane the size of a Boeing 737 across the
: Pacific to Australia -- unmanned -- from Edwards AF13 in
: California to a successful landing on an Aussie base in
: South Australia. It flies along a pre-programmed flight
: path, but is "monitored" (controlled remotely) by
: a pilot from an outside station.

: He explained that the London Economist (20 Sep 2001) published
: comments from the former CEO of British Airways, Robert
: Ayling, who stated that an aircraft could be commandeered
: from the ground or air and controlled remotely in the event
: of a hijack.

: COMMERCIAL JETS AS GUIDED MISSILES

: An AP story, dateline Brussels - 7 Oct 01 -- "At
: Washington's request, NATO will soon deploy surveillance
: aircraft for anti-terrorist operations in the United States
: in response to the attacks on New York and Washington, NATO
: officials said Sunday, an unprecedented use of foreign
: military forces to defend the U.S. homeland."

: The assembled group of pilots debated why we would ask for
: foreign forces to fly AWACS over our sovereign territory
: when we have a fleet of 33 of them, of which 28 are
: stationed in Oklahoma. The debate also centered on whether
: such NATO surveillance aircraft were already here prior to
: 11 September.

: Could one of them have commandeered the four airliners?

: There seems to be wide discrepancies between what the Federal
: government is proclaiming -- and their media moguls
: reporting -- as opposed to the calm and reasoned and
: rational views of those men who fly the planes and defend
: the nation against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

: This writer has been a general aviation pilot since 1946. 1
: have flown a variety of single engine prop aircraft since,
: and installed an FAA-approved airstrip here on my farm in
: 1980. Two local pilots periodically joined me for short
: hops; one, a Madison County lawyer, a graduate of the Air
: Force Academy, who flew for the Air Force before coming
: home to practice law.

: The other, Kent Hill, who lives with his wife, Carol, on a
: farm close to mine, is an American Airlines captain
: assigned to the European route. He was a lifelong friend of
: "Chic" Burlingame, They were graduates of the
: Naval Academy and flew F-4 Phantoms in Vietnam. Both left
: the Navy 28 years ago and joined American Airlines. Both
: planned to retire in 2002. Chic was the captain of AA
: flight 77, a Boeing 757, which departed Washington Dulles
: for Los Angeles at 8: 10 am on I I September, with 58
: passengers and a crew of 6. Flight 77 crashed into the
: Pentagon at 9:41 am.

: "We were totally trained on the old type of hijack,"
: Capt Hill said, "where you treat the hijacker
: cordially, punch a 4-digit code into your transponder to
: alert ground control you're being hijacked, and then get
: him where he wants to go, set the plane safely on the
: ground and let them deal with it on the ground. However,
: this is a totally new situation... Not one of the planes
: alerted ground control that they were being hijacked."
: How come?

: "The fact is, all the transponders were turned off on the
: doomed flights virtually at the same time." Look at
: their departure times -- two from Logan (Boston), one from
: Newark, another from Dulles (Washington DC) -- all between
: 8 am and 8:15.

: "Shortly after climb-out to flight level, their
: transponders are de-activated.. (they are no longer a blip
: on the radar screens). This is something that really needs
: to be looked into. The only reason we turn them off is so
: they don't interfere with ground systems when we
: land."

: (Note: Transponders identify a particular aircraft in flight
: on the radar screens of FAA flight controllers located
: throughout the country. Various codes are punched into the
: transponder, one displaying, "I am being
: hijacked.")

: Although there is much talk among the various flight crews,
: Hill says they are not privy to any of the investigations
: into the events of I I September. "We're in the dark
: -- very much so ... They're playing it pretty tight to the
: vest."

: He is convinced none of the pilots had control of their
: aircraft when they were flown into the World Trade Center
: and the Pentagon. The question then becomes, who was really
: in control?

: "Even if I had a gun at my head, I'd never fly a plane
: into a building. I'd try to put it in anywhere -- a field
: or a river --and I'd be scaring the hell out of them (the
: hijackers) by flying upside down first," Hill said.

: In fact, the pilot has the best weapon in his hand when
: threatened with imminent death by a hijacker, namely, the
: airplane.

: Another airline pilot stated. "On hearing a major scuffle
: in the cabin, the pilot should have inverted the aircraft
: and the hijackers end up with broken necks."

: That none of the four pilots executed such a maneuver points
: toward the fact that none of them had control of their
: aircraft, but had been overridden by an outside force,
: which was flying them by remote control.

: As an old and not so bold pilot, I became more convinced that
: the four commercial jets were choreographed by a
: "conductor" from a central source, namely an
: airborne warning and control system (AWACS). They have the
: electronic capability to engage several aircraft
: simultaneously, knock out their on-board flight controls by
: EMP (electro-magnetic pulsing) and assume command and
: remote control of these targeted aircraft.

: As we consider all the options -- and enemies -- who performed
: this act of war, whether from China, Russia, an
: Islamic country, or from NATO, we must also consider that
: the enemy may be within the gates.

: If so, then we are dealing with high treason.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://syninfo.com/ian/PRIVATE/2001/12/17/2001121719515892.html

from
http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=127157
by Burning Bush
The shit is getting a little deep. Do you have any idea how many people would have to be involved to pull off these fantasies. Do you really expect us to believe that what must be at least 200 American citizens were involved in the WTC attack/conspiracy and that all of them are keeping their mouths shut about it. I am sorry my friend, but you have muddled the picture up with flights of fancy rather than flights of radio controlled airplanes. Hogwash. Just because we have remote flying technology doesn't require of us an instant rush to conspiracy. Somewhere along the line, someone would talk. The story would come out. This was far to big an operation to be handled by the CIA and a few of their criminals, without it being known to some whistle blower. Not that it wasn't caused by them, or the terrorists weren't trained by them for other reasons. All you do is confuse an already confusing issue with these far fetched rants.

Consider another theory. The CIA/Pentagon have foreknowledge that several jets are going to be hijacked by Saudi terrorists who are in bed with OBL. While they have the ability to stop the hijackings, they choose not to, so as to inflame the nation into war with Afghanistan and any other country which decides to stand in the way of the Bush clan, and their demand for the worlds raw materials. They know that OBL has master minded the hijackings. But what they didn't know is that OBL didn't just plan to hijack the jets. He planned to double cross the CIA/Pentagon and fly the jets into the buildings. OBL himself said in the videos that were recorded that the bulk of the hijackers didn't even know that they were to die. Only the head of each cell knew that the mission was to end in death. Which leads me to believe that the CIA/Pentagon/Bush clan were double crossed by OBL as well. Bush and his criminals had no idea that OBL planned a big "fuck you" by crashing the jets. He wasn't supposed to go that far with the project. That was his personal present to the people who put all that American presence in Saudi A. Isn't it also interesting that OBL hasn't been found yet, or that his family members, terrorist financiers, were whisked from the country before the FBI could dig into their activities. The Bushes are protecting him, I believe. It is also interesting that Bush and his criminals will not allow the FBI to investigate the Bin Ladens. What is there to hide? I suggest there is proof that the Bushes and their criminal friends were, and are, in bed with the Bin Ladens and are protecting them. That they allowed a hijacking, which turned into pristine example of CIA/Bush blow back.

Turning this situation into an X-file episode does none of us any good. I am afraid that the situation is far less complicated than your article would offer. Crimes have been committed. Crimes that are not that hard to explain. Unless of course, the crime participants are those who are responsible for uncovering the truth.

I don't think they are as smart as you give them credit for. They wouldn't live the kinds of lives they do if they were smart. They are stupid criminals, able to do as they please because they "OWN" the people who are supposed to investigate them. The Bush's are the CIA. They do as they damn well please. But they don't fly remote controlled aircraft into buildings. They were double crossed by Osoma Bin Laden.
by kronstadt
...if i was a cop, awash in anti-terrorism money, I'd encourage conspiracy thinking; i'd post long-winded diatribes from anti-semites, neo-fascists and leninists about remote-controlled airplanes, British/Zionist plots; and secret WTC building designs. it makes us all look like a bunch of Martians playing with Lego toys.

yes, there are conspiracies; yes, 9/11 was one, even in the official version that bin laden did it; but some of the stuff being posted here is just completely beyond the pale.

Just because the technology to do x exists doesn't mean that 100 or 2 people conspired to do x. Just because y group benefits from an atrocity doesn't mean a secret cabal of y plotters planned the atrocity.

And, yes, all evidence needs to be strictly evaluated on its merits; but the motivation of people pushing conspiracy plots is also important. i want to know why so many anti-semites are addicted to certain theories.

I continue to argue that power at all levels is far too disorganized and chaotic for the integrity of the most elaborate conspiracy theories.
by kronstadt

There is no "evidence" in the flurry of remote control postings and links, only disconnected "facts" that may or not prove a theory, often presented by people who don't have the guts to come out and say what they really stand for. It is characteristic of these links that pages upon pages are devoted to the idea that the government possessed certain technology or that pilots noticed discrepancies in flight patterns, or whatever. But this dreary accumulation of data demonstrates nothing.

"Theory should be developed from facts, not facts selected (or synthesized) to fit theory. " Precisely.

I could easily assemble a ragtag collection of "facts" about Arab interests in the U.S. to argue that most Arabs in the U.S. are working for bin laden, put it up on a Web page with pictures of the towers going up in flames, and then post a message to this board arguing that because of this conspiracy Ashcroft is fully justified in setting up a police state. I doubt anyone on this board would then say that I'm just presenting "evidence" and that they withhold judgement on the alleged conspiracy until all the facts are in. In fact I would be pilloried for peddling a racist theory, and rightly so.

Anti-anti-semitism is not race baiting, and it is not untoward to be "obsessed" about it. It is the vanguard ideology of fascists.

I dissuade people from accepting certain theories without better evidence because that is my right.

If anyone can make a credible case, based on the evidence, for one of these conspiracy ideas, I'm listening.
by ban the troll
You are a complete fool if you really believe this: "I continue to argue that power at all levels is far too disorganized and chaotic for the integrity of the most elaborate conspiracy theories".

Watch JFK a state this bullshitin good faith. You are a foolish "anarchist" if you do not admit what we are up against.

Yes they are organized! Yes they are powerful! AND YES THEY ARE CAPAPABLE OF SUCH A CONSPIRACY!

We need o admit this before we gather enough people and strength to defeat them. Anarchists believe in the illegitimacy of power and its coercive institutions, not their inability to pepetrate crime on a mass scale.

I have never met a true "anarchist" with such a lack of understanding of the fascist-capitalist system and its HISTORY.

Then again, I have never met an anarchist who condemns everything he doesn't agree with as "anti-semitic". I suppose you condemn people who speak out against Israel as "anti-semitic"?

Krondstadt: troll, naive fool, or zionist? You decide!
by kronstadt
"Why is it that the sole and only 9/11 conspiracy theory that you have failed to attack is the one being pushed by Bush, Blair and Powell?"

As soon as they post ad hominem diatribes on this board, I'll get right on it. As it happens, I'd love to see their evidence too, although my personal view is that bin laden and/or his top aides are guilty of the attacks.

I think one reason the proof hasn't been forthcoming haven't is that the evidence against bin laden most likely also implicates the Saudi, Pakistani and U.S. intelligence services in a staggering level of criminality.

"Here's something simple that Krondstadt might be able to read and absorb. It's prbably [sic] about a grade-five level read, but I think he Krondstat can handle it."

Now that hurts. Fifth grade was tough, but I did get past it.
by kronstadt
As conspiracy theories go, the idea of remote controlled planes on 9/11 has to be the funniest ever. That its advocates don't get the joke just adds to the mirth.

I especially like the idea of the Pentagon using remote control to fly a plane....into the Pentagon!!! If they really wanted to blow themselves up, why not just leave a bomb in the men's room?

bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....BOOM!!!!
by Ken aldrich (aldri7 [at] earthlink.net)
This is an old article. The above post appeared on the http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com web page back in November and the copy I have was authored by a "Colonel Donn de Grande Pre (US Army-ret), not "Hahani".

Anyway, it reminds me of some other info I've gleened off the net from inside sources in the Air Force and US military in general, retired and active, concerning Sept 11th. I gather there are a lot of potential whistle blowers in the military right now who will come out of the woodworks to expose what they know as soon as they are safely retired (and have hired bodyguards). One source within the Air Force claimed that Sept 11th was an inside job (that is US Government) all the way and that many were opposed to it and want to speak out. I can't vouch for the authenticity of that source, but if you can establish complicity on the part of the US Air Force, the subject of remote control is bound to come up.

It is bogus in my mind to claim that such an operation is too complex to be carried out by anyone. Baloney!
You can make the case that they would be nuts to do it because the risk of witnesses seeing unusual aircraft etc would be too high. But to say they don't have the organization to do it? Those in charge are all veterans and pro's at covert operations, and this was their coup de grace. I believe that the CIA essentially pirated a plan first advanced by terrorists, tinkered with it and then made it their own. First they said, we'll have OBL dupe the terrorists into thinking the're just hijacking the planes. Then after a while they said, why do we need the terrorists at all? Can we trust them? Logic dictates that in such an operation as this, you make sure you have multiple backup plans - bombs planted in buildings, remote control capability on hand in case humans fail, etc etc. I don't have a clue as to how technically feasible a remote operation would be, so I have to rely on articles like the above post to inform me.
In the end though, it mattered little, because whether terrorists or AWACS flew those planes, the strings were being pulled not by OBL, but by agents of the US government.

The trouble is, I don't really know who this Colonel Donn de Grande Pre is. Or Hahani. Or this Air Force intel source I mentioned. I'd trust them more somehow if they had names like John or Dave or Bill.
So I'm just keeping my eyes and ears and mind open - more pieces of the puzzle are sure to emerge down the road.
by kronstadt
just because I believe, with Chomsky and Z, et al, that al-quada is most likely guilty does not mean "I am supporting Bush's line," any more than those who doubted the Bolshevik view of Kronstadt were supporting the White Army's line, as Lenin accused them of doing. It's a fucking smear.

The evidence on bin laden is strongly circumstantial, not despositive. It calls for evidence to be presented before the UN and/or the World Court, with those bodies authorized to approve action against al-quada ONLY IF THE U.S. CAN PROVE ITS CASE WITH EMPIRICAL DATA. That's the way Nicaragua tried (nobly but unsuccesfully) to handle the U.S. invasion of its country.

And everyone posting here should be honest about where they stand when come forth with a theory. I'm a left libertarian a la Chomsky backing the Z view. Some (not most) of the posters here are fascists, and I'm just asking that they admit to it before they ask us to evaluate their interpretations.
by  
The remotely controlled planes theory is silly, IMJ.


The only conspiracy theories that suggest complicity by a domestic faction within the gov't that seem to make any sense to me, are the ones which posit that somebody(s) somewhere high up in the US gov't had specific foreknowledge that the attacks were coming, and "allowed" them to happen, when they could've acted to thwart the attacks. This doesn't mean that I believe such conspiracy theories are the unvarnished truth (that would put me on par with people who refuse to examine, let alone consider any and all theories). I'm just saying that they seem plausible. These sorts of theories are nothing new. The controversies over the attack on Pearl Harbor by Japan are still discussed to this very day. From what I understand, the conspiracy theories started circulating amongst the public almost immediatly after the Pearl Harbor attack.

The thing is....

a) Some people don't give damn what happened.

b) Many people probably wouldn't even believe a conspiracy theory, if it became incontrovertible conspiracy fact. The psychological blow would be too much. to handle, more then a few good men can't handle the truth. Denial is a powerful defense mechanism, and most Americans, even those that think many politicians are corrupt to some degree, still want to have some measure of faith in their appointed leaders.

Sorry for the cynicism. I do have optimistic days, believe it or not.
by aaron
Touche on the cannibal line Nessie.

As far as conspiracy theorizing, you're good at what you do and you're not gonna stop doing it. I for one hold that there are conpiracies in history but history isn't conspiracy. 9/11 may have been an inside job on some level, but my guess -- for what it's worth -- is that if it was it had to do with prior knowledge and not some elaborate scheme.

The thing that conspiracy theory doesn't address is how to overcome the system that gives rise to the horrors of exploitation, ecological destruction, alienation, and war. In my view, only absolutely incontrovertible evidence of a government conpiracy will push these theories out of the margins. And you know what? There will NEVER be incontrovertible evidence!!! That's why, for strategic purposes, the conspiracy thing is highly problematic.

by hahani
of course i am not the author. That's why the links to the place i found the stuff are there (at the bottom) for anybody that cared to look. Yes, it is better to know exactly who said what and where it came from. I am glad somebody came up with a better source, although I haven't had time to look at it yet.
by not krondstadt
Everyone must read this before they dismiss the possibility of U.S. orchestrated terror upon their own people (including the possibility of remote-controlled planes.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/doc1.pdf

If you don't read this and continue to denounce this possibility, you are an arrogant and ingnorant FOOL.

Such arrogance and ignorance is typical of a) police b) military c) ultra-right-wing capitalist in disguise
by fuck "Krondstadt"
Here is proof that the FBI is trollong around on Indymedia:

http://portland.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=6324&group=webcast

We're on to you TROLLS!!
by 8sox the survivalist
>We out number the ruling class millions to one and we're armed.


------
"If the anarchy scenario were to reach its natural conclusion, the global elites would be eliminated by the angry masses. Those who managed to escape would die more miserably than the poor since they are unsuited for day-to-day survival because they lived their lives like queen bees.

But when the above scenario seems inevitable, the elites will simply depopulate most of the planet with a bioweapon. When the time comes, it will be the only logical solution to their problem. It's a first-strike tactic that leaves the built-infrastructure and other species in place and allows the elites to perpetuate their own genes into the foreseeable future: "War is a male reproductive strategy. All that is needed for the strategy to evolve, is that aggressors fight and win more often than they lose".

The global genocide will be rationalized as a second chance for humanity -- a new Garden of Eden -- a new Genesis. The temptation will prove irresistible:

"Strangelove said, 'Offhand, I should say that in addition to the factors of youth, health, sexual fertility, intelligence, and a cross section of necessary skills, it would be absolutely vital that our top government and military men be included, to foster and impart the required principles of leadership and tradition.'

"The arrow had not missed its mark, and around the table there was an outbreak of sober, nodding heads. Attention was concentrated more than ever on Doctor Strangelove.

"Strangelove went on. 'Naturally they would breed prodigiously, eh? There would be much time and little to do. With the proper breeding techniques, and starting with a ratio of, say, ten women to each man, I should estimate the progeny of the original group of two hundred thousand would emerge a hundred years later as well over a hundred million…'"

How could it be otherwise?"

http://dieoff.com/page185.htm

------
by hahani
"Donn R. Grand Pre" is apparently the name of the author, who has some published books. One is "Confessions of an Arms Peddler". That is the way his name appears on amazon.com.

Grand Pre may seem like a bizarre kind of name, but search it on Google and there are 9,930 results.
Mostly towns or regions or wines.

There is a lot more to the de Grand Pre piece. I found more on this ugly webpage:
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/evidence.htm

Here is the beginning (end of October, '01):

================

The real heroes of the Frame-Up War -- Col. Donn de Grand Pré (ret.)
reports his group's findings.
--------------------------------

Retired U.S. Army colonel, Donn de Grand Pré is the author of Confessions
of an Arms Peddler and Window on America. Here, at last, is the man of
solid integrity who has joined like-minded technical experts to get to the
truth.

De Grand Pré's letter is truth's first major victory in an information war
that has
had the good guys at the mercy of an elusive and consumately deceitful
enemy.

Dick Eastman
Yakima, Washington
Every man is responsible to every other man.
======================================

THE ENEMY IS INSIDE THE GATES

by Donn de Grand Pré

A dedicated group of experienced civilian and military pilots, including
combat fighter pilots and commercial airline captains, just finished a
marathon 72 hours of non-stop briefings and debate over the current crisis
evolving from the use of commercial aircraft as cruise missiles against the
World Trade Center and the Pentagon on 11 September.

The so-called terrorist attack was in fact a superbly executed military
operation against the United States, requiring the utmost professional
military skill in command, communications and control. It was flawless in
timing, in the choice of selected aircraft to be used as guided missiles,
and in the coordinated delivery of those missiles to their pre-selected
targets.

As a tactical military exercise against two significant targets (world
financial center and the citadel of world strategic military planning), the
attack, from a psychological impact on the American public, equaled the
Japanese "surprise" attack on Pearl Harbor 7 Dec 1941.

The over-riding question: If we are at war, who is the enemy?

The group determined that the enemy is within the gates, that he has
infiltrated into the highest policy-making positions at the Federal level,
and has absolute control, not only of the purse strings, but of the troop
build-up and deployment of our military forces, including active, reserve
and National Guard units.

PRELUDE TO PANIC

The 9-11 activity and horrific destruction of US property and lives was
intentionally meant to trigger a psychological and patriotic reaction on
the part of the US citizens, which is paving the way for "combined UN
activity"
(using the fig leaf of NATO) for striking key targets in both the Middle
East/ South Asia and the Balkans. The goal continues to be ultimate
destruction of all national sovereignty and establishment of a global
government.

The trigger for the 9-11 activity was the imminent and unstoppable
world-wide financial collapse, which can only be prevented (temporarily) by
a major war, perhaps to become known as WW 111. To bring it off (one more
time), martial law will probably be imposed in the United States.

In each of the major wars of the 20th century, the financial manipulators
(located in the City of London and New York City) had placed the US (and
much of the Western world) in a monetary expansion mode, followed by an
ever-tightening vice of a gigantic credit squeeze. We now have two ongoing
and tightly controlled simultaneous events (emanating from the two symbolic
targets of 911:

1) Alan Greenspan, Fed chairman, promising to flood the market with up to
$200 billion in FRNs and to further lower interest rates, thus bringing
about hyperinflation and dollar devaluation. Much of these multi billions
in
largesse will be dumped into the coffers of Wall Street, Defense, bankrupt
airlines, insurance companies and into the willing arms of debt-ridden
third-world countries in the form of debt repudiation (forgiveness). Call
it bribery, in order to get these often reluctant nations to join our
coalition of "freedom fighters" in "the war against terrorism".

2) Paul Wolfowitz, deputy Defense secretary, promised that the US will
launch "sustained military strikes against those behind the terrorist
attacks on New York and Washington". He said that the "military retaliation
would continue until the roots of terrorism are destroyed."

This bit of saber rattling was seconded by select NATO allies (especially
Britain), and by our chief ally in the Middle East, the Butcher of Beirut,
Ariel Sharon, while Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld, with the blessings
of Pres. Bush 11, is activating thousands of national guard and reservists,
not only to guard the vulnerable airports, but to do fly-overs of our
Nation's
capital in F16s from the North Dakota Air Guard. Other National Guard units
are being jockeyed into potential combat "hot spots" throughout the Middle
East/South Asia and the Balkans.

WHO IS THE ENEMY?

Following is a summary of the near-unanimous views of the assembled
military and civilian pilots concerning certain critical factors relating
to the
WTC/Pentagon hit of 9-11:


----------------

it goes on from there as in the original post. Then there is a lot more at the end. Go to the link and read if you want.
by kronstadt
Everybody duck--here come the remote controlled CIA drone planes---bbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz---BOOM!!!

I don't know what's funnier--the idea that the government is nervous about posters to this site revealing the truths about certain conspiracies; or some of the alleged conspiracies themselves.

As for the FBI, I wish they WOULD call me. I could use the money.

Before they do, I'll just have to entertain myself with this remote control 9/11 stuff. Instead of confronting the supremely comic implications of this "theory," my inquisitors just keep piling on the "evidence"; more and more links from, say, Quagley Quiggenbush, the CIA station chief in Tora Bora in the 1950s, who used remote control planes to pick up his laundry and thus set the stage for the 9/11 attacks--WHATEVER!!

Thus does ultra left/right paranoia reach its apogee-the notion that the government (oh, excuse me, "portions" of it) quite literally plotted to blow itself up.

The trouble with sitting in a poorly ventilated room in front of the Internet all day, my friends, is that eventually the fumes will get the best of your political acumen. I recommend daily exercise.

VRROOOMMMMMMMMMM!!!! BZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!! BOOM!!!





by Thirstin' Owl the III
>>We out number the ruling class millions to one and we're armed. [nessie]

>But when the above scenario seems inevitable, the elites will simply depopulate most of the planet with a bioweapon. [8sox]

A good resource that is related to the above conspiracy theory tangent: Missing / Dead Scientists
by Ehonni
it is possibele that the 4 planes were remote controlledl! It is not sure! But you behave like George War Bush himself. All people who doubt the official vesion are stupid, lunatic, supporters of osma or even terrorists themselves??? Nonsense!!!! There are a lot of questions about 9/11, and we have to take this questions serious. Whats about flight UA 93? Was ist really shot down? Debris was found 8 (eight!!!!) miles away.....and whats about the passenger´s lists??? You can´t find ANY arabic name on this lists? Strange...do you know about the tonkin incident or operation northwoods? Do you know about Gleiwitz?
First Fact: the hijackers themselves could not have acted in concert with each other without outside communique.
Fact 2: it is impossible for them to have flown the planes so precisely into their targets at precisely the correct times from the cockpit.
Fact 3: the planes could not have been guided into small targets hundreds of miles away from within the cockpit. The navigational systems would have had to be programmed with the coordinates.
Fact 4: there is no evidence that the hijackers carried with them any more than box cutters, much less complicated computer machinery that would be necessary to hack the security of the navigational system and to program in the new navigational control points of the world trade center and pentagon. And it would have been necessary to do this while skirmishing with the crew and other brave passengers. It is not physically possible.
Fact 5: the world trade center and the pentagon are not preprogrammed flight destinations for the commercial airline industry.
Fact 6: the airlines industries navigational systems work in concert with navigational satellite systems. Obviously we do not use hostile satellites for our navigational systems.
Fact 7: the US navigational satellites would have to be overidden as well as the planes navigational system in order for the flights to proceed to their targets. Otherwise the planes would have been diverted by normal "remote control" which our plane systems fly by every day...the pilots are there for emergency situations, takeoffs and landings. Ask a pilot they will tell you this.
Fact 8: No evidence whatsoever has been released proving the Bush administrations theory on the attack.
Fact9: Facts 1 through 8 disprove the bush theory therefor a new postulus need be made, more facts be accumulated, and then the new postulus be tested by all known facts. (not proven by obscureness of patriotism)
Fact 10: The bush administration had everything to gain from war in the middle east, both money and power - personally through corporations like Enron (and others Enron is only the tip of the iceberg) and nationally through the increasing power of the administration through laws that come into effect in time of national emergency (such as FEMA) (this establishes motive and would do so in a court of law - not that there werent others with motive, it is just one step along the way of an investigation)
Fact 11: Bush had been dealing intensively with the taliban until weeks prior to sept 11 in order to secure land for an oil pipeline for the Enron corporation as well as sale of oil reserves at bottom low prices. When the taliban decided that bush was trying to give them the screw on prices they turned down his offer and were answered with bushes reprisal that they can have a carpet of gold or a carpet of bombs. This ended the relations whereupon several weeks later the sept 11 incident occured, rousing support for a war in afghanistan that has since provided the US with large inflows of oil.
Fact 12: remember gas prices this summer? Several weeks after the invasion of Afghanistan gas prices in my town dropped in half. Taken in an economic point of view, the demand did not fall off by half, for the US consumes as much oil and energy as ever, therefor the supply must have doubled. this excess came from the invasion of afghanistan.
Fact 13: Dick Cheney and the white house administration are hiding papers related to their business with Enron.
Fact 14: In my own town in november, 3 square miles were quarantined by federal troops dressed in "normal police blues" no one was let in or out of the quarantined area for 6+ hourse There were hundreds of heavily armed soldiers wearing police uniforms. You may ask how I know that they were soldiers. 1. because i spoke with local law enforcement who informed me that even they were not being allowed into the quarantined zone. 2. i live in a small town and in all the surrounding towns and countryside together there are not that many police. the armed military men that were enforcing the quarantine were searching houses illegally which I have gathered from speaking with several elderly women that lived within the quarantine area and they said the military men broke in their doors and searched their home for no apparent reason and without warrants or even a comment as to justification or explanation. They were also stopping cars along the exterior of the quarantine zone of particular look. I know - I drove by on the way home from work and drove by again later when i returned to my office to finish up some work and pick up some personal items. Also it should be know that despite the fact that I saw all the local news media posted at the edge of quarantine zone(not being allowed inside it) and that in such a small town as i live this is the biggest news in 20 years, not one report was made on the nightly news or in the newspapers. It was a week later reported as an offhanded comment without pictures or cooberating evidence in two sentences that it had been a 6 car pile up on the hiway.
Fact 15: northwood declassified documents show that the US government has planned such tactics in the past in order to generate support for war
Fact 16: I have seen an unmarked freight truck backing into a culvert which opened down into the ground from the Loop in Longview Texas which proceeded underneath the longview mall, escorted by blocking off 2 lanes by one "cop car" (thats what it looked like i was just driving by) Military personel are seen in the area in civilian clothing but carrying pistols, government issue despite the fact that no overt military base is in the area. The longview airport is an alternate landing site for the space shuttle.
Fact 17: no evidence was shown of the crash site in pennsylvania. it was summarily ignored by the media on sept 11 and for several days following...after those several days the "crash site" was then shown with only a few scattered pieces of metal and no obvious destruction of the natural landscape.
Fact 18: It is only 5% likely that the plane that hit the pentagon hit in the spot that it did. It hit in the 5% of the building not occupied by brass. So either it is 5% coincidence or it was intentionally aimed their. thats only a 1 in 20 shot at coincidence if one knows probablilities. I have a degree in Finance from A&M I know numbers.
Fact 19: Prisoners are held in Guantanamo outside the US where they can only be questioned by selected personel and will have no chance of contact with the american public.
Fact 20: the US government was instrumental in constructing the Al Qaeda network.
Fact 21: the bush administration gave 40 million to the taliban in the summer prior to sept 11 to stop opium production.
Fact 22: another US puppet government has been set up - this time in afghanistan. Musharaf was set up 2 years previous by the american goverment. the US military began working with the uzbek military 2 years ago in training exercises.

these are the facts that i will leave you with for now...please add your own facts - and i do mean facts not government propaganda. I have drawn my own conclusion and formed my postulus from these facts and others that elude my brain at the moment. it is likely that with each addition of new facts my hypothesis of the situation will change accordingly. remember government propoganda is NOT FACT



by mike (aka Bork the Happy Space Alien
Fact 23: Fruit Loops often get soggy in milk and resemble the World Trade Center. Coincidence? I think not.

Fact 24: Dick Cheney in sillohuette resembles the giant glazed pastry that Mohammed Atta was eating at the Logan Airport Dunkin' Donuts on 9/11. Coincidence? If you're a troll!

Fact 25: Don Rumsfeld's high school class theme song was "Big Ol Jet Airliner" by the Steve Miller Band. Happenstance? If you're an imperialist!

Fact 26: L. Ron Hubbard once belonged to a naturist commune in Kabul, Maine. Veeeerrrrrrryyyyyyyyyy interessstttttttttttttttiiiiiiiiiinggggggggggggg!!!

Fact 27: Flying Saucers ate my wingdings.

Fact 28. I knew Jesus, Filthy. Jesus was a friend of mine. And let me tell you, Filthy, you're no Jesus.

Fact 29. Most androids come with two year warranties, but the ones that the Pentagon uses to fly commercial airlines have UNLIMITED warranties. Quality Assurance? If you're an Enron accountant!

Fact 30. Sometimes at night, when there are no stars, my bad breath looks like those chemtrails I see after smoking some really good sh*t. Or was that Pluto?



by FILTHY
Fact 7812: like cuz dude i aint like you know cuz whatever man dude cuz the government is postulating propogandinating so dude like cuz WHATEVER! anyways the govmnent plots cuz GW is enron and i aint got a gun!
I have apparently hit the buttons with the government agents that monitor this site so everyone should take note.
by boy george
Anachists and David Duke are Butt-Hole Brothers


U.S. officials "have evidence that neo-Nazis, white supremacists and Black Muslim factions have reached out to foreign terrorists whose similar hatred for Israel and the U.S. government might make them natural allies":

In the aftermath of Sept. 11, some American white supremacists have written pieces aimed at Middle Eastern or Muslim audiences that blame the attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon on U.S. politicians and Israel.

"The real reason we have suffered the terrorism of the WTC attack is shockingly simple," former Klu [sic] Klux Klan leader David Duke wrote in one such piece. "Too many American politicians have treasonously betrayed the American people by blindly supporting the leading terrorist nation on earth: Israel."

Duke's articles on his Web site are now translated into Arabic and have appeared in Mideast and Muslim publications since Sept. 11.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&u=/ap/20020228/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/attacks_us_extremists_1



by Culture Club
Give me time to realize my crime
Let me love and steal
I have danced inside your eyes
How can I be real

Do you really want to hurt me
Do you really want to make me cry
Precious kisses words that burn me
Lovers never ask you why

In my heart the fire's burning
Choose my color find a star
Precious people always tell me
That's a step a step too far

CHORUS:
Do you really want to hurt me
Do you really want to make me cry
Do you really want to hurt me
Do you really want to make me cry

Words are few I have spoken
I could waste a thousand years
Wrapped in sorrow words are token
Come inside and catch my tears

You've been talking but believe me
If it's true you do not know
This boy loves without a reason
I'm prepared to let you go

If it's love you want from me
Then take it away
Everything is not what you see
It's over again
by JFK Jr.'s ghost
They used a remote control to crash my plane too. BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...ouch...damn fish
by mike aka Amelia Earhart
Hey, JFK, Jr., you're cute even with all that seaweed over you! Yes, I, too, was cruising along when remote controllers took over my plane and plunged me into the ocean. Damn, that hurt! But I'm back and stronger than ever!

I am woman, hear me roar
In numbers too big to ignore
And I know too much
To go back an' pretend
'Cause I've heard it all before
And I've been down there on the floor
No one's ever gonna
Keep me down again

Oh yes I am wise
But it's wisdom born of pain
Yes, I've paid the price
But look how much I gained
If I have to, I can do anything
I am strong
I am invincible
I am woman

You can bend but never break me
'Cause it only serves to make me
More determined
To achieve my final goal
And I come back even stronger
Not a novice any longer
'Cause you've deepened
The conviction in my soul

Oh yes I am wise
But it's wisdom born of pain
Yes, I've paid the price
But look how much I gained
If I have to, I can do anything
I am strong
I am invincible
I am woman

I am woman watch me grow
See me standing toe to toe
As I spread my lovin' arms
Across the land
But I'm still an embryo
With a long long way to go
Until I make my
Brother understand

Oh yes I am wise
But it's wisdom born of pain
Yes, I've paid the price
But look how much I gained
If I have to
I can face anything
I am strong
I am invincible
I am woman
Oh, I am woman
I am invincible
I am strong
by FILTHY
LOL I had no idea how far they would go just so no one would pay attention to facts...oh wait that IS the purpose of propoganda =) these include but are not limited to plain deceit, missdirection (which is used here) lies mixed with truth and made to be heard as all truth, confusion of details in order to make truth fallable, dilution (where such a vast amount of nonsensical information is distributed no one has time to sort through it, which i have seen on other posts on this site), sentiment to old hatreds (racism, bigotry, people that hate gays, etc etc..), and patriotism(e.g. no true american could listen to my crap and love their country, god ,a nd their fellow american) These are just a few.

So please if someone would actually like to debate my points i gladly look forward to , but like i said before skip the propaganda and try to write a sensible discourse for debate or at least state your own opinion no matter how ludicrous i might believe it to be but quit already with the propoganda!!!
by brigg
I bet the main reason the police keep people away from a plane crash is they don't want anybody walking in and lying down in the crash stuff, then when somebody comes up act like they just woke up and go, "What was THAT?!"
by Government Agent That Monitors This Site
That Filthy is on to us again! When will we learn that you can't outsmart someone clever enough to figure out this remote control stuff?
by Fred
Why do you people focus on all this stupid conspiracy stuff instead of grappling with more sophisticated left thinking, like that found in New Left Review?

It's depressing to realize that very few people posting to this site, or engaged in left politics generally, have any interest or even aptitude for anything beyond cardboard Leninism, anarchism, etc.

Who here has even tried to read Gramsci, Althusser, Marx, Bookchin or even Chomsky? Maybe if you did, you wouldn't be chasing all this stupid conspiracy stuff. Remote controlled airplanes on 9/11? Give me a break!

by FILTHY
Planes are regularly controlled by "remote control" on normal flights every day every hour so what makes it such a difficult concept to think that these controls were overturned? remote controlled airplanes have nothing to do with conspiracy...its a fact of modern life. its amazing to me that you even know how to operate your computer. Its also amazes me that you dont claim computers are a whacked out conspiracy theory, for this is the basis of your argument - and you tell me to read HA I SAY!!! Ive read thousands of books on a great many subjects. I had read the bible through in its entirety by the time I was 6 years old so dont tell me about education. I have 165 IQ and a college degree, not to mention hundreds of subjects I have mastered in my own time away from schooling. I work hard at a job that provides me with shelter and food like so many americans do. You might want to rethink your slowness of mind because you cannot even begin to compete with me on an intellectual level. If you could you would have debated my points as i asked and not spouted illiterate gibberish.
by mike
i translated the Bible into Spanish before I was 5 and then re-translated it into Dutch on my 6th birthday.

i have an IQ of 650 and I weigh 92 pounds dripping wet.

I've read thousands of Cliff Note guides to novels while surfing the internet by remote control from my secret bunker underneath the Pentagon.

On Mondays at the cafeteria, I like cheese and tomato on rye with just a touch of mustard.

i use the p-q method to solve quadratic equations.

sometimes at night, when there are no clouds, i can see how many planets circle each star. i'm not proud of it. it's just part of who i am.

has anyone ever seen Donald Rumsfeld and Harrison Ford in the same room? Hmmmmmm..................

I could have shot that bastard Einstein when he stole E=MC squared from me in the second grade and pawned it off as his own.

I'm short against the box on Enron.

Do anarchists dream of black sheep?









No generally i dream of dead corpses of red white and blue wolves...

Thanks so much for your intelligent commentary - but what could i expect from a government paid crony
§.
by that hollow sound of your own steps in flight
.
by brigg
I am a commercial rated pilot approaching 3000 hours. Planes are NOT "regularly controlled by 'remote control' on normal flights every day every hour ", unless for some strange reason you like to refer to a plane's 'autopilot' as 'remote control.'

Quote - "Otherwise the planes would have been diverted by normal "remote control" which our plane systems fly by every day...the pilots are there for emergency situations, takeoffs and landings. Ask a pilot they will tell you this."

If by 'remote control' you mean to say that sometime after takeoff, some type of ground operation conducts the flight rather than the PIC, then releases the flight prior to touchdown, as a pilot, I'm informing everyone that's NOT what takes place. Most commercial airliners are using GPS, but lo and hi altitude airways are still flown from VOR to VOR using the OBS and centering the needle, just like we have for years.

Though I have never been PIC in a 767, I have sat in the right seat of planes very comparable. I guarantee you I could fly a 767 into a large building if I choose to do so.

by A skeptic
>>Brigg:"I am a commercial rated pilot approaching 3000 hours."

I doubt that Brigg is telling the truth as he is too busy trolling Indymedia to do anything productive. It smells like troll spirit.
by mike
Yeah, what's wong with you Fred? What are you, some kind of fucking moron? Nessie's right:: anyone who disagrees with this remote control 9/11 stuff is an agent of the Trilateral Commission's World Bank IMF For the Propagation of Miltary Tribunals to Defend the New World Order. And that's a fact, Jack, or Fred, or whatever your troll name is. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!! Spring is in the air and I smell a troll!!! Smells a lot like pussy, actually. And I love pussy, so I love trolls!!!!
by mike
i just ate some fine pussy--redheaded, my favorite--and I'm wondering: does anyone know how to eat pussy using this remote control technology? That would be so cool!!! Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!! I just LOVE pussy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Remote control cunnilingus--now that's a conspiracy I can support!!! Poontang, poontang, it's in the air, it's everywhere!!! I slept all night with hand on it!!! Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!! Yummmeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by phil kelley
brigg

I know GPS is very accurate down to several feet I understand. Can GPS be programmed to fly a plane to a certain place at a certain height and speed?

phil kelley
by mike
nessie-is-a-moron.com/i pulled it out of my ass/index
by brigg
Phil Kelley,

To answer your question, and a lot more…

By knowing the latitude and longitude of a particular ‘fix’, you can create a ‘waypoint’ on an aviation GPS unit. However, GPS is used in aviation as a tool for navigation, not for altitude and airspeed.


To the contrary of other statements made, like those below, to reprogram the GPS is nothing. Child’s play. You ain’t gotta ‘hack’ nothing. Belows ‘facts’ are simple BS.

“Fact 2: it is impossible for them to have flown the planes so precisely into their targets at precisely the correct times from the cockpit.
Fact 3: the planes could not have been guided into small targets hundreds of miles away from within the cockpit. The navigational systems would have had to be programmed with the coordinates.
Fact 4: there is no evidence that the hijackers carried with them any more than box cutters, much less complicated computer machinery that would be necessary to hack the security of the navigational system and to program in the new navigational control points of the world trade center and pentagon. And it would have been necessary to do this while skirmishing with the crew and other brave passengers. It is not physically possible.
Fact 5: the world trade center and the pentagon are not preprogrammed flight destinations for the commercial airline industry.
Fact 6: the airlines industries navigational systems work in concert with navigational satellite systems. Obviously we do not use hostile satellites for our navigational systems.”



The autopilot in aircraft is ‘slaved’ to the GPS unit, just like the altimeter, heading indicator, airspeed indicator, and attitude indicator are also ‘slaved’ in order to provide the autopilot with the information it needs to fly the aircraft. But any of these can be separately disengaged without affecting the others.

Regardless of that, the hijackers didn’t need extensive navigation to find NYC and Wash D.C.. the moving map on the GPS can be zoomed to as close as 1/10th of a mile or out to 5000 miles. Zoom it out..Hey, there’s NYC…point the plane in that direction. Descending the plane is no problem, just cut back on the throttle. You can use the autopilot to level off at whatever altitude you choose. Fly down the Hudson, there it is, line up the plane, whammo.

Need I remind, a high-pressure system dominated the eastern seaboard that day. There wasn’t a cloud in the sky. Had they been trying to do this in instrument meteorological conditions with broken or overcast skies at 500 feet AGL, this would have increased the ability to pull this off tremendously.


The more I read this, the more bogus it gets. For instance:

“Who would be in command of such an Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS)?… have the capability to utilize electro-magnetic pulsing (EMP) to knock out on-board flight controls and ommunications of targeted aircraft, and then, to fly them by remote control.”

AWACS could send out EMP’s to disrupt the electrical system in the plane. It’s a whole other matter to assume control of the aircraft by ‘remote control’ without having installed something in the craft with its own independent source of power to take commands from another location. If I’m the pilot, and my electrical power is knocked out and I’m not able to control the aircraft (which I’ve never heard of. You practice electrical outages, vacuum pump failures, partical panel, etc… but you can still control the aircraft in an electrical outage.), but for some reason the aircraft is not spiraling out of control, I got to figure something is up. I’d be damned if I wouldn’t be throwing the master switch, pulling fuses, ripping wires, whatever I have to do to wrestle control back to me.

If it was as easy to control an aircraft from a remote location, as this writer states, why didn’t AWACS fly above golfer Payne Stewart’s plane back in 1999 and just guide the plane down to a landing? The plane hung in the air for 4-5 hours from Florida to where it crashed in Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota (????? I don’t remember where exactly). What a perfect opportunity to assume control of a plane and keep it from crashing at all. Hopefully I didn’t just start a new conspiracy.


Again…
"Shortly after climb-out to flight level, their ransponders are de-activated. (they are no longer a blip on the radar screens). This is something that really needs to be looked into. The only reason we turn them off is so they don't interfere with ground systems when we land."

That’s a blatant lie. Just because your transponder goes off doesn’t mean you’re not a blip on the radar screen. A transponder increases your visibility and reports to air traffic control your altitude. But even if you lose your transponder signal in flight, you can still be picked up as a ‘primary target’. You’re a big metal thing flying in the air. Radar still bounces off of you.


Again…
“Another airline pilot stated. "On hearing a major scuffle in the cabin, the pilot should have inverted the aircraft and the hijackers end up with broken necks."

Yeah! Sure! If you’re on CRACK!!!! These planes are made for carrying passengers, not for aerobatic maneuvers. The G-forces alone would probably rip the wings off the plane. At the very least, you would have major, major structural damage. Not a pretty picture.


A monkey can take a plane off. To control the plane in the air is nothing. All you’re training really involves is proper ground checks, understanding and interpreting your gauges, emergency procedures, and mainly how to land the aircraft. That’s why at first you go up and practice stalls, slow flight, etc… to learn how to land. That’s why one of the highjackers just wanted to learn how to control the aircraft. He didn’t need to know how to land.


Again…
“He is convinced none of the pilots had control of their aircraft when they were flown into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. The question then becomes, who was really in control?”

Terrorist hijackers maybe?!? NO! Too obvious.

by mike
I have an idea: let's see if we can fill and entire hard drive with all this drivel and useless "evidence." For the 900th time, you nimrods: JUST BECAUSE THEY COULD DO IT DOESN"T MEAN THEY DID DO IT. If the government wanted to acess oil or create a police state, or whatever, there are more effective, less risky, ways to do it. But there's no arguing with people who've lost touch with reality. Although it is a lot of fun, like wacking a punching bag over and over. I swear, you conspiracy mongers get more and more stupid with each new post. [nessie: please insert abusive ad hominem comment here. thanks, buddy!] conspiracymoron.com/howstupidareyou.htm
by mike
just because they say they didn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it because whether you could do it could not do it is not as important as why they would do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it even if they could do it but didn't do it doesn't mean they did do it even if they could do it and wanted to do it or even if they could do it but didn't do it because they wanted others to think they couldn't do it
by mike
Wasn't me. But i do suffer from tourettes, although I have it under contro--YOU #@$^&!!!!-- for the most part with all the proper medi--I HATE YOU, YOU FUC-just an occassional flare up now and then--GODDAMN IT!!!--my friends have been very supportive--NESSIE'S A @!$^&!--I'm sure you will too, please forgive any occassional outburst--UP YOURS, NESSIE, YOU @#!*!--it's good to know you're all sicking by me--$#%!!!!- despite my disability.
by Read this, you Anti-Conspiracy Trolls
Jim Knipfel
Where All Your (Paranoid) Fantasies Come True

It was reported quickly and quietly this morning on the BBC’s "World Update" that an exiled Russian tycoon will be holding a press conference today during which he will be presenting solid evidence that Russian intelligence forces—and not Chechen rebels—were behind the 1999 bombing spree in Moscow. The bombs, if you remember, were detonated throughout a series of apartment complexes, and resulted in dozens of civilian fatalities.

So why did the government bomb its own people? Simple, he says—they needed an excuse to invade Chechnya. And what better excuse could you have than the brutal, indiscriminate slaughter of innocent men, women and children by outside forces? Among the evidence he plans to cite is the detainment of a known intelligence operative just a few blocks away from one of the blasts who was still carrying explosives on his person.

It sounds insane, right? The stuff of only the wildest of conspiracy fantasies.

But if you stop and remember that in the early 1960s, the U.S. government drew up plans to do exactly the same thing in order to win public support for a war with Cuba (as revealed through State Dept. documents published last year in James Bamford’s Body of Secrets), well, then, it doesn’t seem like such a crazy notion after all. I mean, it’s still crazy, but it’s not out of the question. Certainly is effective, so long as you don’t get caught.

News of today’s press conference (and what it reports to reveal) could not be found anywhere on any American newswire that I could find. It was barely mentioned internationally—it is not on the BBC’s print news wire, nor is it in the English edition of Pravda (though I guess that’s no surprise). Maybe there’s a reason for that. One possible reason is that this Russian tycoon is merely a kook who’s making up crazy stories. More and more Russian citizens are taking these claims of his seriously, but that doesn’t mean he’s not a full-blown loon. Another possibility is much more sinister.

Put the idea of Russian intelligence killing civilians in order to prompt a war together with 40 year-old U.S. plans to do the same thing, together with last week’s revelation that the Bush administration has set up a shadow government in an underground base somewhere, together with a war effort that’s expanding much faster than most of us can keep up with, together with a few dozen other weird things that seem to be going on, and, well, people might start to whisper.

Not being of a conspiratorial bent myself, however, that’s all I’m going to say about it. It is, after all, a crazy idea.
by Eugene M. Grace (<egsingsong [at] earhtlink.net>)
Who are these commercial airline and U.S. Airforce pilots who engaged in this 72 hour marathon discussion of 9/11. Who kept the notes? Is not there a transcript available for a matter of such critical import. Or is this just a piece of anti-semetic bullshit!. The Palestinians have been besieged by the Zionists at least since 1948, but also by all their bretheren Arabs in the MIddle East, none of whose fascist dictators could even begin to tolerate the Palestinians' pursuit of Democratic Socialism. I have never met a Zionist but I have developed close relationships with many American Jews and I've yet to meet one that I didn't like.
Signed: "foolami???'

by Ehonni
So! 9 of the nineteen hijackers were selected,-but they were allowed to board the planes...
And now, let´s meet the Top-Gun-ace-pilot Hani Hanjour, the man who steered flight AA77 into the so called "Pentagon": He was not able to flew a Cessna, but he flew a Boing 757 with extraordinary skill. Cool!
Let´s talk about september 11 now-about september 11, 73. Freedom itself was attacked in Chile, faceless cowards supported General Pinochet... thousands of innocant civilians were killed ...the people who are behind these evil acts should be punished!!
by Dennis Bernstien
I knew it all the time, those CIA types and their silly pranks. Flying remote controlled jetliners into the WTC and Pentagon. Who would have thought? I glad someone put 2 + 2 together.

Whew…
by Radio Shack Guy
I should have been suspicious when those two guys in black overcoats and dark sunglasses and bright red fedoras showed up at the store one day, asking if they could buy the remote control car set WITHOUT THE CAR, and if we could mail it to a post office box in Langley, Virginia.

My skins crawls as I think of the evil these Ivy Leaguers were contemplating. I do remember asking them casually, "Hey, what do you guys want with a remote control car set without the car?" and they said, "We could tell you, kid, but then we'd have to kill you." I clamped up real fast, let me tell you....

by Omama_bin_Laidoff
"I continue to argue that power at all levels is far too disorganized and chaotic for the integrity of the most elaborate conspiracy theories." With this inane comment, Kronstadt seriously "misunderestimates" the abilities of those in power or those with the power to pull of a 9/11. They are highly organized. Yes, they make mistakes but generally they are able to accomplish most of what they set out to do whether its overthrowing a regime or hijacking airplanes. Conspiracy theories are just that, theories, plausible explanations of may have went on. DO YOU THINK YOU KNOW EVERYTHING? DO YOU THINK THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA OR THE BUSH CRIMINALS ARE GONNA LET YOU KNOW EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW? Don't be naive, please! And as for anti-semetism, as a Jew I don't necessarily see anti-semetism in many of the explanations given. Nor do I consider anti-Israeli opinions as necessarily anti-Semetic. Yes, they may be but most are not. Many "anti-israel" opinions come from Jews and the Left movements within Israel. We and they are critical of Sharon and/or Israeli military actions. That's all.

Finally, I would put nothing past Bush, nothing! The desire for profit and captive markets and captive raw materials means little or nothing to America's ruling corporate class. We have used false pretexts in the past as an excuse to go in and invade or bomb. Gulf of Tonkin to name one. And we know from the Pentagon Papers that the entire Vietnam debacle was
fraud and that we were lied to about almost every aspect of our involvement. Conspiracy theories need to be proven and perhaps they never will be. But its ok as far as I am concerned, to ASK QUESTIONS, something some people don't wanna do because they are afraid of what the answers may be. You need to stop trusting the government. Democracy depends on your DISTRUST of the government, on your willingness to hold them accountable. Read between the lines. Ask "who benefits?" And always follow the money.

"And, yes, all evidence needs to be strictly evaluated on its merits; but the motivation of people pushing conspiracy plots is also important. i want to know why so many anti-semites are addicted to certain theories."

The motivation may just be a yearning for truth, for accountability. Since themainstream press is mostly silent on much of this stuff for the usual reasons, we need to do their job for them and ask the right questions. Your distrust of those asking questions or positing explanations may just point to your own paranoia. You may have conspiracy theories of your own relating to why people are "addicted to certain theories".

by Omama bin Laidoff
"The desire for profit and captive markets and captive raw materials means little or nothing to America's ruling corporate class." SORRY, obviously a typo. Meant to say that those things mean EVERYTHING to America's ruling class and that they will stop at almost nothing to persue their $$$ goals. This is why we consistantly arm our enemies and why the uS is the #1 arms merchant in the world. Profit. Profit for the defense and armaments industries. The pursuit of cheap labor, captive markets, and raw materials (oil) for the capitalist class is Foreign Policy 101. It is also Domestic Policy 101.
by works for me
Actually, Russia just surpassed the US as the world's #1 arms dealer -- does that mean their ruling elite is more rich and powerful than ours?
by Omama bin Laidoff
...and if thats true (I don't know what your source is but I will take your word)...it only means that, like Avis, as number 2, We Try Harder. They must be at work trying to regain America's lost honor. lol! Russia's ruling class may not be as rich and powerful as ours but they're working on it. Is it ok with you that massive profits are made arming the world to the teeth by capitalist classes of either nation? Or do you favor it and buy into the official line that we are "defending freedom and democracy"...which is what they must tell you in order to get you to go along with anything they do. Or just say the word "terrorism" or "national security" and you come-a-runnin'??
by Lyuba Pronina, The Moscow Times
Friday, Jun. 14, 2002. Page 5

Russia is the world's top arms dealer, passing the United States for the first time in 2001, according to a new report by the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.

Russia exported $4.97 billion worth of arms in 2001, with the United States delivering $4.56 billion worth, SIPRI said in its "Yearbook 2002: Armaments, Disarmament and International Security," made public Thursday.

France was third, exporting $1.28 billion worth of arms last year, while Britain was fourth with $1.12 billion. Germany came in fifth with $670 million and Ukraine was sixth with $430 million.

The value of arms exports differs from Russia's official figures. President Vladimir Putin said earlier this year that Russia had revenues of $4.4 billion in 2001. Some $3.7 billion worth of arms were delivered last year, Vedomosti reported.

Although the study was objective, Russian defense analysts said it does not reflect the real state of the arms market since the figures represent the military value of exported armaments and not the actual contract price. "For us, every weapon that is similar to another weapon has the same price value," SIPRI researcher Siemon Wezeman said by telephone from the Netherlands.

For example, according to SIPRI, Russia's MiG-29 and its more expensive U.S. counterpart, the F-16, are comparable in value and have the same price in the report: $30 million.

"In reality, Russia is at No. 3 or No. 4 in dollar terms," said the Center for Arms Control's Marat Kenzhetayev.

The United States should re-emerge as the No. 1 arms exporter in the coming years, Wezeman said. U.S. deliveries of combat aircraft, which are of higher value, were tiny compared with Russian deliveries in 2001, but exports are expected to rise in the future, he added.

"The U.S. has orders for a large number of combat aircraft, but this is for delivery in 2003. ... In 2002 Russia has a good chance of staying No. 1 again, mainly driven by these combat aircraft."

Last year, Russia delivered an estimated 50 Sukhoi aircraft alone. Thirty Su-30MKK and 10 Su-27UBK went to China, while 10 Su-24 were delivered to Algeria, said Konstantin Makiyenko, deputy head of the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies. "These aircraft make up over half of [arms] deliveries in money estimates," he said.

Beijing was by far the biggest arms client overall in 2001, and deliveries to China from all countries rose 44 percent year on year to $3.1 billion.

"China is one big client that is completely dependent on Russia for its arms imports," Wezeman said. "Without China, Russia would not be there."

China mainly has purchased Russian aircraft over the last decade but is now switching to battle ships and air defense systems, Makiyenko said. These new purchases will help Russia keep its arms exports at the current rate of $3.7 billion in 2005 after a two-year slump that will begin next year as lucrative aviation contracts are fulfilled, he said.

"After 2005, there will be a radical fall to $1.5 billion to $2 billion unless the situation changes," Makiyenko said.

Russia is seeking new clients to keep up revenues, among them Brazil, where Russia expects to win a tender for fighter jets. Iran is also emerging as a big client.
by Omama bin Laidoff
"The United States should re-emerge as the No. 1 arms exporter in the coming years..." And so there it is. Well, thanks for updating me, buddy. Looks like the Russkies just nosed us out. WELL WHAT ARE WE WAITING FOR?!! We gotta catch up and SELL!! SELL!! SELL!!! Maybe they can use a telemarketer...."Hello Your Highness, how are you today? Good! Well I'm with Lockheed-Martin and I was wondering can you use some new F-15 fighters and possibly a few antimisslemissles...and I tellyawhatI'magonnado, because you're the nicest damn Fascist dictator in town, my boss has authorized me to throw in a fleet of our newest armoured tanks. And, man, they're LOADED! Get this!! AM/FM, CD, Power locks, sunroof, whitewalls, LEATHER...the works". Have your choice of burnt umber or Army Fatigue. Sir, help me make my quota and I'll knock another 15% off the top and throw in a case of Muscatel, America's finest vintage wine and a set of steak knives. An offer you can't refuse! Sir, Can I Have Your Order?"
by Omama bin Laidoff
...now that both the US and Russia are selling like crazy to everyone and yo mama. Makes me proud! Ammunition, fighter jets, anti-missle missles, anti anti missle missles, anti anti anti missle missle missles, and so on....Here we go again!! And you thought someone was doing something about arms proliferation?? Got War? Gee, I wonder who's profiting from war? Follow the money. Oh, but nooooooooo......American corporations are interested in freedom, democracy, justice. Now, I still have that beachfront property in Arizona available, I can cut you a great deal!!
by works for me
Hey, don't forget French ($1.28B), British ( $1.12B), and Germany ($670M) democracies. They're terrorists too, right?
by Sandra
Gee, i wonder why American Muslims go to enormous length to get out of the spotlight. Does the term 'Trojan Horse' mean anything to you?

Too bad for Islamofascists, 9-11 is not the first time we encountered the evilness of Islam.
by Omama bin Laidoff
...you seem hellbent on establishing yourself as an American nationalist. Yes, the French, yes the British, yes the Germans sell and proliferate arms. No, I would not say that makes them terrorists but it sure helps the terrorist cause, whatever that may be. We have a bad habit of arming our enemies. Or the Germans, or the Russians, etc. It is the capitalist class that profits from weaponry, capitalists of several nations, not just our own. Duhhhh, doesn't that pretty much go without saying? You must be one of these "don't badmouth my country" guys. Well listen buddy, I will say what I want when the hell I want. And fuck this nationalism crap of yours, it only helps divide the world into Us vs Them in all its glorious manifestations. I am critical of the US because I believe that one should first look at onself before accusing others...this applies both personally as well as to nation-state relations. No, sorry, we are not superior as a nation as much as you would like to believe it. And if you are a nationalist of any stripe, then you must believe that as a necessary component of your chauvinist mindset. Its a step away from racism, in fact closely related. Simply put, you believe in the moral or genetic superiority of one part of humanity over the rest, exactly what fuels racism, war, and slavery. I will have none of that. All nations are equally stupid and smart, no difference. And all people basically want the same things: security, comfort, decent standards of living...and peace. All those nice things. "America First" will always lead to more war and international difficulties unless we stop this insanity once and for all with an international solidarity of all working people and an end to nationalism and fundamentalist religion. Tall order admittedly but there is no alternative. People like you want to compete. Competition is conflict...thats what you need to understand.
by works for me
You know them Israeli tanks? Powered by German engines, and tanks ain't much of a threat if they can't move. And Israeli light arms? Supplied by Belgium (or was it Austria) -- and that ain't the half of it, pal.

If you REALLY wanted to account for all those involved in Palestinian deaths (or any other people) you better do your homework or else you're a hypocrite. But I suppose acknowledging the complicity (and demanding a share of responsibility) from other nations wouldn't fit into your narrow, anti-America agenda, would it?
by works for me
. . .and ask an ethnic Albanian why they needed NATO in the first place. So what have we learned? Every country and people can be condemned for manufacturing arms and being party to violence. Why? Because that's just how human beings are -- a depressingly hard truth.
by loop-de-loop
Think remote controlled 9-11 planes were part of the US gov't conspiracy, listen to this.

Pearl Harbor. Dec. 7, 1941, right? So, how come there weren't 120,741 planes involved in the attack? And get this. December. 12th month. 12/07/41. Twelve. Twelve hours away was half-way around the world. Approximately Eastern Europe. Seven. Seven letters in the words S-E-R-B-I-A-N, and C-R-O-A-T-I-A, AND B-O-S-I-N-A-N, and A-L-B-A-N-I-A. Forty-One. The number of people livng in those areas who gave a shit about Pearl Harbor. Weird, huh!?!

>how come when the NATO bombing started, so many of them (Albanians) fled straight into Serbia?

Too easy. They felt like they had to run somewhere. If they had run into Macedonia or Greece, they would have been slaughtered. Macedonians and Greeks hate Albanians.

Want proof? Look it up yourself you fucking lazy assed bitch! I ain't got time to do your thinking and you homework for you too.

by Human Rights Watch
Under Orders: War Crimes in Kosovo - http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/kosovo/undword-02.htm
The Yugoslav Army, Serbian police, and paramilitaries were all responsible for war crimes in Kosovo. In general, however, paramilitaries appear to have been more extensively involved in the most violent abuses, specifically the executions and rapes. While police and army units are by no means exempt from responsibility in this regard, the paramilitaries were more commonly engaged in arbitrary killings and sexual violence. . .

Human Rights Watch Report, October 2001 - http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/kosovo/
"Without question, the serious violations being committed by some Albanians in Kosovo today require urgent attention. In addition to the documentation provided in this report, Human Rights Watch has repeatedly condemned these abuses, most comprehensively in a report issued in August 1999, Abuses Against Serbs and Roma in the New Kosovo. This report, however, focuses primarily on the crimes committed against ethnic Albanians during the NATO bombing—crimes that were both wide-­ranging and carefully planned by a government. As this report shows, Kosovo from March to June 1999 experienced a coordinated, state-­sponsored campaign of killings and expulsions. . ."

Accountability and Transition in the Balkans (list of HRW articles) - http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/serbia/
by Omama bin Laidoff
Maybe you did not read my last posting where I DID ACKNOWLEDGE THE COMPLICITY OF OTHER NATIONS IN PROLIFERATING ARMS. You totally missed my point that it is CAPITALISM and its profit motive at any social cost that is adding fuel to the fire in the mideast and elsewhere!!! Fool! I don't care if they are American capitalists or Belgian! They are WAR PROFITEERS!
by works for me
War began with the dawn of humanity and propogated through every conceivable society, regardless of government or economic structure. You can't rid yourself of war, but you can minimize its appearance and its effects.

Ask yourself which current nations are taking this task to heart more than the rest, and then take a good look at their society. What kind of governement and economy do they have?
by Osama bin Laidoff
that goes something like this: war is natural, its human nature, and so is capitalism, people are naturally greedy, etc etc. It all adds up to more apologetics and no solutions. They used to justify slavery the same way, natural, human nature, etc....You are devoid of any broader view and seemingly have eaten all the Conventional Wisdom that they have thrown at you since day one. There ARE solutions if people organize to bring them about. War is not necessary or natural merely because it happens. They have made of you a hopeless sucker and you have internalized the Holy Grails of their ideology without ever challenging. The "war is natural" mentality becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy, don't you see that? It is highly UNNATURAL. And people are NOT naturally greedy, they are taught to be in cultures such as ours. If it were natural, then all people in all times and places would be greedy and that is not the case. A teacher once said to me that anything outside the human body is cultural. Finally, this WQE ARE RIGHT, THEY ARE WRONG crap just always leads in endless circles of destruction. One thing we learn from history is that we don't learn from history. Its about time we did and no better place to start than with you yourself. Don't argue just for the sake of arguing or "winning" an argument. LISTEN to what I say, digest it, sit with it.
by dapimpondacorner
>LISTEN to what I say, digest it, sit with it.

That would be dependant upon one believing you actually had something to say that was worth listening to. Until then, why should anyone listen?
by Omama bin Laidoff
Its nonsense that there have "always been wars no matter what government, system, etc..." Not true. There have been many long periods of peace and relative prosperity in all eras of human history, and many examples of nations getting along well with one another and realizing their common interest. I don't know why I let that comment of yours just slip on by but you are wrong. people get along very well when the incentive to go to war is not present and when they are not whipped up by corrupt and self-serving leaders who profit directly or indirectly from war. We live under a system of profits first. Capitalism is an anti-social system that breeds war and poverty. Get off this notion that WE ARE SUPERIOR which underlies your views.
by works for me
Nonsense? War is just the broadest form of violence, and violence always exists because it is a part of humanity. All societies reflect the gamut of the violence palette from fights to riots to ethnic clashes and wars. And the periods you consider peaceful a minority from that period may equally claim it was a time of occupation and/or subjugation.

I think you've been blinded by well-intentioned by reality-challenged political philosophy and your thoughts are merely the ghostly whispers of 19th century rhetoric.

When you and your fellow righteous dreamers found a new idyllic society on a remote island and prove us all wrong, then you may gloat with great satisfaction. Until then, you have nothing by a misguided sense of injustice.
by Omama bin Laidoff
The causes of war are...

1. Religious fanaticism and fundamentalism. Its another way of keeping people's heads buried up their asses and not realizing their common humanity and common interests as workers. To realize such would put an end to the desire to kill others, something Ruling Classes cannot afford to have happen because their material interests and investments must be protected . Since Ruling Classes never fight their own battles, they must get the working class to fight for them. All fundamentalism posits the Devil and/or the Infidel, prerequsite notions for killing other people.

2. Nationalism ("America is the best"..."we are superior, you are inferior"...etc.) which is always in service to a Ruling Class when it wants to make war. ...they just whip it up to get the people to support war. This takes up the slack and covers those who are not religious fundamentalists. Like religion, its a way of controlling the population, give them slogans, give them flags (or better yet, SELL them flags), and "feelgood" rhetoric, tell them that the enemy is inferior and barbaric to rally their support of the State. It was necessary for Hitler and Germany as for the US in WW1 as for every nation that goes to war.

3. Competition (for markets, cheap labor, raw materials) among ruling classes of different nations. This is the real cause of war -- material interests -- that the previous two causes act as covers for. Markets, raw materials, cheap labor, profits. And the class that controls the markets and raw materials, and profits -- the capitalist class or ruling class --- is the class that directly profits from war. The other classes are compelled to serve it and lend their labor and tax money to support it. Since the capitalst class pay no taxes, the working class is left to foot the bill for all state functions, national defense and conquest.
by works for me
OBL-
War is as old as man, predating any formalized system of statesm, religions, or economies.

Nessie-
I did quite a bit of research and could not find anything to back your claim about the Bell-Beaker people of Europe. In fact, it seems quite the opposite is true --current nthropolgical/archeaolgical literature often refers to the entombed corpses as "warrior priests." Copper daggers, axes, arrow heads, and spears are quite commonly found and burial customs suggests weapons were carried by most, if not all men on a regular basis. Rick Schulting, a researcher from Cardiff University, is in the midst of writing a paper detailing the violence of the neolithic age.

http://www.cf.ac.uk/hisar/archaeology/projects/bones/
http://www.arch.soton.ac.uk/Research/Italy/
by Joshua S. Goldstein, Cambridge U. Press
""

From: Cambridge University Press
Is War Between Humans Always Inevitable?
Joshua S. Goldstein

"Cover"EDITOR'S INTRODUCTION | From long before Homer wrote the Iliad right into the twenty-first century, war appears to have been an ever-present feature of the human landscape. Some have theorized that the natural human instinct leans towards peaceful coexistence, and that the prevailing state of affairs is the byproduct of male aggression. In this extract from his book War and Gender, Joshua Goldstein holds that there is no empirical evidence to support the idea that war is a latter day phenomenon.


Marxist (and other) scholarship has long portrayed both sexism and war as products of a certain stage in human history--that of private property and the state system following the invention of agriculture over 10,000 years ago. Originally, it is claimed, humans lived in matriarchal societies (women held political power) which did not have war. Evidence comes from the supposedly peaceful and gender-equal character of modern-day gathering-hunting societies. Thus, both patriarchy and war are products of economic class relations which changed with the rise of the state, in this view.

Marx's collaborator Friedrich Engels links the beginning of war to the rise of the state--and thus the end of war to the anticipated post-state era of communism. Engels argues that societies before the invention of agriculture were matriarchies and that when, with agriculture, private property came into being, gender relations were transformed and men seized power. The rise of the state and the beginning of war were products of that same transformation. Gender and war are here linked, but only indirectly, both being effects of the transformation of economic class relations after property came into being. The solution to war, therefore, is to move beyond private property to a classless society, by means of a revolution against the current phase of private property, namely capitalism.

Several decades ago, the evidence seemed to imply that early humans were peaceful and egalitarian. Modern gatherer-hunters were reputedly peaceful, and the fossil record contained no compelling evidence of war. Thus, war appeared to be characteristic of a phase in human history, a mere 1 percent of the time we have been around as a species (and thus decoupled from any biological basis). In the event of a future transformation of the state system, or of the class divisions first sparked by agriculture (which made surplus possible), war itself might end as abruptly as it began. The end of war would be natural since we would need only to fall back on our deep human nature--3 million years of peaceful prehistory--to rediscover ourselves as creatures of peace. The idea that human beings are naturally peaceful and war is an aberration makes this story appealing. (A related myth held that humans are the only animal that kills its own species, again showing social violence as a deviation from nature. In fact, however, over a hundred other species kill their own kind.)

Thus, this perspective urges us to fall back on our true selves, go back to nature, change oppressive class relations, and/or do away with the state system, in order to achieve real peace. Incidentally, gender relations are not very important in this story. (Many Marxists see class relations as more important than gender relations.)

Present-day gathering-hunting societies
The story does not hold up, however. The evidence from modern-day gathering-hunting societies, whose supposed peaceful nature was assumed to reflect peaceful human origins, in fact shows the opposite: modern gathering-hunting societies are not generally peaceful. Of 31 gathering-hunting societies surveyed in one study, 20 typically had warfare more than once every two years, and only three had "no or rare warfare." I will get to those "rare" cases, but the point for now is that if typical gathering-hunting societies found today represent the typical societies found before the rise of the state--as advocates of peaceful origins have claimed--then those original societies were warlike

In theory, the absence of war altogether among gatherer-hunters is not essential for the idea of peaceful human origins. As a fall-back position, one could argue that gathering-hunting societies were relatively more peaceful than the chiefdom and state societies which followed. Even that argument, however, fails in light of empirical evidence. According to cross-cultural anthropological studies, nonstate societies have as much warfare as states do. Furthermore, overall per capita levels of violence (i.e., among individuals) may actually be higher in simpler gathering-hunting societies than in complex agrarian or industrialized societies, although this is hard to measure.

Clearly, cross-cultural anthropological data do not support the idea that humans started out more peaceful in simple societies and became more warlike in complex societies, culminating in modern states. Admittedly, the evidence is not conclusive regarding human origins, because generalizations about today's gathering-hunting societies--most of which have been altered in both subtle and obvious ways by contact with the industrialized world--may not tell us much about the gathering-hunting societies that existed before the invention of agriculture. Usually, by the time the first anthropologists arrived on a scene the culture was far from "pristine." Even if the society itself had no regular contact with European colonizers, the process of colonization had often pushed it into a fraction of its former territory and severely reduced its population, as appears to have happened with some Canadian Eskimo peoples. In the case of Australian desert Aborigines, metal knives and tools had filtered in from surrounding areas that had contact with Europeans long before any white person arrived to meet or observe the Aborigines. In these contexts, it is quite plausible that depopulation and territorial contraction could have caused an upswing in conflict and war due to resource scarcity. Alternatively, the encroachments of Western colonizers could have caused a warlike society to cut off warring, and band together for survival. Furthermore, as colonizers actually overran and took control of local cultures, they often engaged in "pacification" of local conflicts.

The point is that a society in the midst of such a radical transformation may not reflect the nature of early human societies. Consider one prominent example of this problem. The extremely warlike Yanomami Indians of Brazil and Venezuela were studied intensively by anthropologist Napoleon Chagnon, who wrote them up as "the Fierce People." Among the Yanomami, all female babies are killed until the first son is born. This creates a shortage of women for wives, and competition for this scarce resource is a major object of wars. The Yanomami say their wars have the purpose of capturing women, although some anthropologists propose other underlying reasons. Non-anthropologists often refer to the Yanomami when discussing gathering-hunting societies, or even call them "pristine." In fact, however, decades before anthropologists first arrived, the Yanomami had already acquired steel tools (machetes, metal cooking pots, and axes) from the outside, allowing more efficient production of bananas and plantains, as well as axe fights. Thus, "pristine is passe." Overall, however, colonial effects mainly suppress war and thus do not explain the presence of war in simple societies.

Hundreds of cultures, both preagricultural and agrarian, are documented in the Human Resources Area Files (HRAF)--"the only worldwide, systematic collection of information concerning societies." Anthropologists Melvin and Carol Ember, who run HRAF, analyze a sample of 90 societies. They note that "we cannot compare societies with and without war" because "the vast majority... had at least occasional wars when they were first described, unless they had been pacified." The Embers find only eight societies where wars occur less frequently than once in ten years on average. Over half of the 90 societies were in a constant state of war or readiness for war, and half of the remaining cases fought every year during a particular season. They conclude that "war is almost ubiquitous in the ethnographic record, in the absence of external powers that imposed pacification, and the frequency distribution is skewed sharply toward the high end" (M. Ember and C.R. Ember, "Cross-cultural studies of war and peace," in S.P Reyna and R.E. Downes (eds), Studying War, 1994).

Prehistoric evidence
In theory, the best evidence about whether humans were peaceful before the invention of agriculture would be the direct record of those times as studied by archaeologists and paleontologists. This record is very spotty, however, and not compelling for either war or peace. To summarize, the evidence is consistent with (but not proof of) the presence of warfare at least sporadically throughout all periods of prehistory. It is doubtful that war followed along after (and hence possibly as a result of) the Neolithic Revolution (the beginning of agriculture, herding, and proto-urban settlements about 10,000 years ago), since strong evidence points to war's presence early in the Neolithic era. It is even possible that war played a central role in creating the Neolithic Revolution. A new and growing, though still limited, body of tangible evidence--ranging from discernible fortifications around settlements to remnants of weapons and the residue of injuries on bodies--suggests the presence of war before agriculture. One paleontologist writes that only after many years of excavating "skeletons with embedded projectile points" did he question his "acceptance of the traditional view that the native peoples of California had been exceptionally peaceful."

The rise of states
>No one disputes that war played a central role in the rise of states and civilizations after the Neolithic Revolution. In 12,000 to 8000 BC "there was a revolution in weapons technology... Four staggeringly powerful new weapons make their first appearance...: the bow, the sling, the dagger... and the mace, [and]...produced true warfare." The bow and arrow were inexpensive and reached 100 yards versus 50 for spears, and an individual could carry more arrows than spears. It "spread rapidly around the Mediterranean. Neolithic cave paintings clearly reveal their use against men as well as animals." The sling had double the range of the bow and arrow (200 yards), and was also extensively used in Neolithic times. Along with the new weapons came the invention of military tactics, especially the organization of soldiers in columns and lines. With these changes in the offensive power of armies, the fortification of settlements began, which then spread around the eastern Mediterranean from 8000 to 4000 BC. Jericho--one of the earliest fortified sites with 13-foot-high stone walls and a tower--may have started as a hunting site (around an oasis), with the walls coming next as defense against armed enemies (thereby committing the inhabitants to a sedentary life), and agriculture following. Evidence from the earliest historical societies shows warfare well ensconced. War played a central role in the rise of the early Middle Eastern civilizations, and was already strongly gendered.

To summarize in reverse chronological order, war played a central role in the rise of the first states and civilizations (and thereafter). It may have driven rather than resulted from the Neolithic Revolution. Evidence indicates war in the period just before the start of recorded history. Although the earlier prehistoric period does not provide adequate evidence for or against the presence of war, we do know that those societies had both the social organization and the weapons necessary for organized intergroup violence. War may plausibly have played a role in the rapid expansion of modern humans starting 150,000 years ago, which led to the extinction of other early humans including the Neanderthals--although we have no hard evidence of this. We cannot say whether early humans, dating back several million years, engaged in lethal intergroup violence, but at least one other primate species (chimpanzees) does so in its natural habitats. Finally, present-day gathering-hunting societies worldwide virtually all have war, and violence in these simple societies appears to be at least as prevalent as in agrarian and industrialized societies.

Thus, the myth of peaceful origins finds no empirical support. Again, this does not mean that any group of people at a particular time and place are forced to have war. It does mean that war, like gender, has deep roots. It is not overlaid on our "true" selves, but runs deep in us.

Relevant link
War and Gender (www.warandgender.com)

This is an extract from pp. 23-27 of War and Gender by Joshua S. Goldstein,
published by Cambridge University Press, copyright Joshua S. Goldstein, 2001.

by works for me

The Copper Age in Europe North of the Mediterranean Lands: Danubian Movements and Bell Beakers - Society for Nordish Physical Anthropology

. . .While Copper Age civilization was thus spreading westward along the Danube and the lands to the north, a countermovement in the form of the Bell Beaker invasion travelled eastward from the Rhine to the Danube, and as far as Poland and Hungary. The remains of these Bell Beaker people occupy single graves or groups of graves, rather than whole cemeteries; they were apparently wandering traders, trafficking in metals, for their gold spirals have been found in Danish graves of the corridor-tomb period. They were thus in all likelihood rivals of the Battle-Axe people in their search for amber.

It is not known how they went from Spain to central Europe. Sporadic finds in France and northern Italy suggest the Rhône-Rhine and the Brenner Pass routes as alternatives.61 In neither case is the evidence very satisfactory, and neither excludes the other. From the Rhine Valley as a center, Bell Beaker expeditions moved eastward into Bohemia, Austria, Poland, and Hungary; those who took part in these movements were eventually absorbed into the local populations. The Bell Beaker people who remained in the Rhinelands, however, came into intimate contact with the Corded people, who had invaded from the east and northeast, and with the corridor-tomb megalithic population to the north, whose domain extended down into the Netherlands. These three, of which the Bell Beaker element formed perhaps the dominant one, amalgamated to form an Early Bronze Age cultural unit, the so-called Zoned Beaker people, who invaded England and Scotland as the first important carriers of metal. . .


Paper presented at the War and Society Seminars, session: "Warfare and social structure" Aarhus University, Denmark, April 2000, by Helle Vandkilde of Lund University

Corded Ware burials in Bohemia are fully examined anthropologically and thus suitable for my purpose. The period is between 2800 and 2500 BC. All male weapon burials look like this one: body crouched to the right, oriented W-E, facing south, and armed with stone battle axe, or stone macehead. In addition, a corded beaker for drinking; maybe also a flint axe. Amazingly standardised. Obviously a systemic ideal of maleness related to particular weapons and drinking habits and shared by many separate communities. . .

. . .We can cautiously read the evidence more directly. These communities were strictly ordered socially, probably ranked. The warrior role is important to society. Some sort of military organisation exists; probably institutionalised warbands. The diagram distribution and the corded drinking beaker confined to warrior burials leave a club-like impression.

The remarkably similar appearance across geographic space implies that warfare was not the only type of social interaction with the outside world. The club of warriors no doubt defined itself through a continuum of ritual and social actions of which warfare was the ultimate one. This is surely not the age-grade variety of warbands. It might be the prestige-action model, but it could be more hierarchical, since some males might have been born into the warriors club. . .

Modelling warriorhood
A warrior is a social role. Being a warrior does not preclude other social identities. Even specialist warriors have other roles to perform. The warrior role persists in times of peace, latently or more openly. Warriorhood may have come into existence the very moment status could be acquired through warfare.

Warfare is communal action, whether it is about cattle raiding, plunder, piracy or regular battle. Since it is mostly men who engage in warfare, we may speak about “Männerbund”. The warband is a male club, where only the very climax is “the kill”. Institutionalised warbands include social and ritual action in which warfare is probably important. But it is also true that a bellicose rhetoric within the band can misrepresent a social reality that includes peaceful interaction. . .

The Bell Beaker East Group
A similar pattern characterises the east group of Bell Beakers between 2500 and 2200 BC: rigid sex distinction, males with and without weapons, each male group corresponding to a female counterpart. Weaponry is connected to high rank: tanged copper dagger, equipment for archery; arrowheads and wristguard; plus the obligatory bell beaker for drinking, and sometimes a miniature composite bow in bone and a pair of gold or silver earrings. The military organisation should be much the same in CW and BB. . .

by Omama bin Laidoff
Terrorism Meets Reactionism by Michael Parenti October 21, 2001 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When almost-elected president George W. Bush announced his "war on terrorism" in the aftermath of the September 11 attacks, he also was launching a campaign to advance the agenda of the reactionary Right at home and abroad. This includes rolling back an already mangled federal human services sector, reverting to deficit spending for the benefit of a wealthy creditor class, increasing the repression of dissent, and expanding to a still greater magnitude the budgets and global reach of the US military and other components of the national security state. Indeed, soon after the terrorist attacks, the Wall Street Journal ran an editorial (September 19), calling on Bush to quickly take advantage of the "unique political climate" to "assert his leadership not just on security and foreign policy but across the board." The editorial summoned the president to push quickly for more tax-rate cuts, expanded oil drilling in Alaska, fast-track authority for trade negotiations, and raids on the Social Security surplus. More for War Bush himself noted that the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon offer "an opportunity" to "strengthen America." As numerous conservatives spoke eagerly of putting the country on a permanent war footing, the president proudly declared "the first war of the twenty-first century" against an unspecified enemy to extend over an indefinite time frame. Swept along in the jingoist tide, that gaggle of political wimps known as the US Congress granted Bush the power to initiate military action against any nation, organization, or individual of his choosing, without ever having to proffer evidence to justify the attack. Such an unlimited grant of arbitrary power--in violation of international law, the UN charter, and the US Constitution--transforms the almost-elected president into an absolute monarch who can exercise life-and-death power over any quarter of the world. Needless to say, numerous other nations have greeted the president's elevation to King of the Planet with something less than enthusiasm. And King of the Planet is how he is acting, bombing the already badly battered and impoverished country of Afghanistan supposedly to "get" Osama bin Laden. Unmentioned in all this is that US leaders have actively fostered and financed the rise of the Taliban, and have long refused to go after bin Laden. Meanwhile, the White House announces that other countries may be bombed at will and the war will continue for many years. And Deputy Defense Secretary Paul D. Wolfowitz urges that U.S. armed forces be allowed to engage in domestic law enforcement, a responsibility that has been denied the military since 1878. Under pressure to present a united front against terrorism, Democratic legislators are rolling over on the issue of military spending. Opposition to the so-called missile defense shield seems to have evaporated, as has willingness to preserve the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty. The lawmakers seem ready to come up with most of the $8.3 billion that the White House says it needs to develop the missile defense shield and move forward with militarizing outer space. Congress is marching in lockstep behind Bush's proposal to jack up the military budget to $328.9 billion for 2002, a spending increase of $38.2 billion over the enacted FY 2001 budget. Additional funds have been promised to the National Security Agency, the Central Intelligence Agency, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and other skulduggery units of the national security state. Having been shown that the already gargantuan defense budget was not enough to stop a group of suicidal hijackers armed with box cutters, Bush and Congress thought it best to pour still more money into the pockets of the military-industrial cartel. (Incidentally, the next largest arms budget is Russia's at $51 billion. If we add up the defense allocations of all the leading industrial nations, it comes to less than what the United States is already spending.) Wag the Dog Many of the measures being taken to "fight terrorism" have little to do with actual security and are public relations ploys designed to (a) heighten the nation's siege psychology and (b) demonstrate that the government has things under control. So aircraft carriers are deployed off the coast of New York to "guard the city"; national guardsmen dressed in combat fatigues and armed with automatic weapons "patrol the airports"; sidewalk baggage check-ins and electronic tickets are prohibited supposedly to create "greater security." Since increased security leads to greater inconvenience, it has been decided that greater inconvenience will somehow increase security--or at least give the appearance of greater security. Then there is that biggest public relations ploy of all, the bombing of hillsides and villages in Afghanistan, leaving us with the reassuring image of Uncle Sam striking back at the terrorists. To stop the bombing, the Taliban offered to hand over bin Laden to a third country to stand trial, now without even seeing any evidence against him. But this was rejected by the White House. It seems that displaying US retaliatory power and establishing a military presence in that battered country are the primary US goals, not apprehending bin Laden. Lost in all this is the fact that US leaders have been the greatest purveyors of terrorism throughout the world. In past decades they or their surrogate mercenary forces have unleashed terror bombing campaigns against unarmed civilian populations, destroying houses, schools, hospitals, churches, hotels, factories, farms, bridges, and other nonmilitary targets in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, East Timor, the Congo, Panama, Grenada, El Salvador, Guatemala, Angola, Mozambique, Somalia, Iraq, Yugoslavia, and numerous other countries, causing death and destruction to millions of innocents. Using death squad terrorism US leaders have also been successful in destroying reformist and democratic movements in scores of countries. Of course hardly a word of this is uttered in the corporate media, leaving Bush and company free to parade themselves as the champions of peace and freedom. In time, the American people may catch wise that the reactionaries in the White House have not the slightest clue about how they are going to save us from future assaults. They seem more interested in--and are certainly more capable of--taking advantage of terrorist attacks than in preventing them. They have neither the interest nor the will to make the kind of major changes in policy that would dilute the hatred so many people around the world feel toward US power. They are too busy handing the world over to the transnational corporate giants at the expense of people everywhere. And as of now, they have no intention of making a 180 degree shift away from unilateral global domination and toward collective betterment and mutual development. Reactionary Offensive on the Home Front Several bills pending in Congress are designed to expand the definition of terrorism to include all but the most innocuous forms of protest. S 1510, for example, treats terrorism as any action that might potentially put another person at risk. The bill gives the Feds power to seize the assets of any organization or individual deemed to be aiding or abetting "terrorist activity." And it can be applied retroactively without a statute of limitations. A telephone interview I did with Radio Tehran in mid-October, trying to explain why US foreign policy is so justifiably hated around the world, might qualify me for detention as someone who is abetting terrorism. Other bills will expand the authority of law enforcement officials to use wiretaps, detain immigrants, subpoena email and Internet records, and infiltrate protest organizations. Some nine hundred people have already been rounded up and put into "preventive detention," with no charges brought against them and no legal redress. In keeping with the reactionary Right's agenda, the war against terrorism has become a cover for the war against democratic dissent and public sector services. The message is clear, America must emulate not Athens but Sparta. One of the White House's earliest steps to protect the country from terrorist violence was to cut from the proposed federal budget the $15.7 million slated to assist little children who are victims of domestic abuse or abandonment. Certainly a nation at war has no resources to squander on battered kids or other such frills. Instead Congress passed a $40 billion supplemental, including $20 billion for "recovery efforts," much of it to help clean up and repair New York's financial district. Bush then came up with an "emergency package" for the airlines, $5 billion in direct cash and $10 billion in loan guarantees, with the promise of billions more. The airlines were beset by fiscal problems well before the September attacks. This bailout has little to do with fighting terrorism. The costs for greater airport security will mostly likely be picked up by the federal government. And taken together, the loss of four planes by United and American Airlines, the impending lawsuits by victims' families, and higher insurance rates do not of themselves create industry-wide insolvency, and do not justify a multibillion dollar bailout. The real story is that once the industry was deregulated, the airlines began overcapitalizing without sufficient regard for earnings, the assumption being that profits would follow after a company squeezed its competitors to the wall by grabbing a larger chunk of the market. So the profligate diseconomies of "free market" corporate competition are once more picked up by the US taxpayer--this time in the name of fighting terrorism. Meanwhile some 80,000 airline employees were laid off in the several weeks after the terrorist attack, including ticket agents, flight attendants, pilots, mechanics, and ramp workers. They will not see a penny of the windfall reaped by the airline plutocrats and shareholders, whose patriotism does not extend to giving their employees a helping hand. At one point in the House debate, a frustrated Rep. Jay Inslee (D-Wash.) shouted out, "Why in this chamber do the big dogs always eat first?" Inslee was expressing his concerns about the 20,000 to 30,000 Boeing workers who were being let go without any emergency allocation for their families. Sen. Peter G. Fitzgerald (R-Ill.) expressed a similar sentiment when casting the lone dissenting vote in the Senate against the airline bailout: "Congress should be wary of indiscriminately dishing out taxpayer dollars to prop up a failing industry without demanding something in return for taxpayers." It remained for Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) to explain on behalf of the Bush warmongers why the handout was necessary: "We need to look at transportation again as part of our national defense." The post-September 11 anti-terrorism hype is serving as an excuse to silence any opposition to drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. Our nation needs oil to maintain its strength and security, we hear. Against this manipulative message, the environment does not stand much of a chance. Likewise, US Trade representative Zoellick enlisted the terrorism hype in the White House' s campaign to surrender our democratic sovereignty to corporate dominated international trade councils. In a Washington Post op-ed (September 20) Zoellick charged that opposition to fast track and globalization was akin to supporting the terrorists. House Republican leaders joined in, claiming that trade legislation was needed to solidify the global coalition fighting terrorism. Here was yet another overreaching opportunistic attempt to wrap the flag around a reactionary special interest. Actually it is the free trade agreements that threaten our democratic sovereignty. All public programs and services that regulate or infringe in any way upon big-money corporate capitalism can be rolled back by industry-dominated oligarchic trade councils. Corporations can now tell governments--including our federal, state, and local governments--what public programs and regulations are acceptable or unacceptable. The reactionaries do not explain how giving private, nonelective, corporate-dominated trade councils a supranational supreme power to override our laws and our Constitution will help in the war against terrorism. Looting the Surplus The bailout to the airline industry is only part of the spending spree that the White House has in store for us. Bush now endorses a "stimulus" of $60 billion to $75 billion to lift the country out of recession by "recharging business investment." He also has called for an additional $60 billion tax cut which, like previous tax reductions, would give meager sums to ordinary folks and lavish amounts to fat cats and plutocrats. Where is all this money for defense, war, internal security, airlines, rebuilding lower Manhattan, tax cuts, and recharging the economy coming from? Much of it is from the Social Security surplus fund--which is why Bush is so eager to spend. It is a myth that conservatives are practitioners of fiscal responsibility. Rightwing politicians who sing hymns to a balanced budget have been among the wildest deficit spenders. In twelve years (1981-1992) the Reagan-Bush administrations increased the national debt from $850 billion to $4.5 trillion. By early 2000, the debt had climbed to over $5.7 trillion. The deficit is pumped up by two things: first, successive tax cuts to rich individuals and corporations--so that the government increasingly borrows from the wealthy creditors it should be taxing, and second, titanic military budgets. In twelve years, the Reagan-Bush expenditures on the military came to $3.7 trillion. In eight years, Bill Clinton spent over $2 trillion on the military. The payments on the national debt amount to about $350 billion a year, representing a colossal upward redistribution of income from working taxpayers to rich creditors. The last two Clinton budgets were the first to trim away the yearly deficit and produce a surplus. The first Bush budget also promised to produce a surplus, almost all of it from Social Security taxes. As a loyal representative of financial interests, George W., like his daddy, prefers the upward redistribution of income that comes with a large deficit. The creditor class, composed mostly of superrich individuals and financial institutions, wants this nation to be in debt to it--the same way it wants every other nation to be in debt to it. Furthermore, the reactionary enemies of Social Security have long argued that the fund will eventually become insolvent and must therefore be privatized (We must destroy the fund in order to save it.) But with Social Security continuing to produce record surpluses, this argument becomes increasingly implausible. By defunding Social Security, either through privatization or deficit spending or both, Bush achieves a key goal of the reactionary agenda. How Far the Flag? As of October 2001, almost-elected president Bush sported a 90 percent approval rating, as millions rallied around the flag. A majority support his military assault upon the people of Afghanistan, in the mistaken notion that this will stop terrorism and protect US security. But before losing heart, keep a few things in mind. There are millions of people who, though deeply disturbed by the terrible deeds of September 11, and apprehensive about future attacks, are not completely swept up in the reactionary agenda. Taking an approach that would utilize international law and diplomacy has gone unmentioned in the corporate media, yet 30 percent of Americans support that option, compared to 54 percent who support military actions (with 16 percent undecided) according to a recent Gallup poll. Quite likely a majority of Americans would support an international law approach if they had ever heard it discussed and explained seriously. In any case, there are millions of people in the US who want neither protracted wars nor a surrender of individual rights and liberties, nor drastic cuts in public services and retirement funds. Tens of thousands have taken to the streets not to hail the chief but to oppose his war and his reactionary agenda. Even among the flag-waivers, support for Bush seems to be a mile wide and an inch deep. The media-pumped jingoistic craze that grips the United States today is mostly just that, a craze. In time, it grows stale and reality returns. One cannot pay the grocery bills with flags or pay the rent with vengeful slogans. My thoughts go back to another President Bush, George the first, who early in 1991 had an approval rating of 93 percent, and a fawning resolution from Congress hailing his "unerring leadership." Yet within the year, he was soundly defeated for reelection by a garrulous governor from Arkansas. Those who believe in democracy must be undeterred in their determination to educate, organize, and agitate. In any case, swimming against the current is always preferable to being swept over the waterfall. Among Michael Parenti's recent books are History as Mystery, and the 7th edition of Democracy for the Few.
by Omama bin Laidoff
Terrorism Meets Reactionism

by Michael Parenti

October 21, 2001
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When almost-elected president George W. Bush announced his "war on terrorism" in the aftermath of the September 11 attacks, he also was launching a campaign to advance the agenda of the reactionary Right at home and abroad. This includes rolling back an already mangled federal human services sector, reverting to deficit spending for the benefit of a wealthy creditor class, increasing the repression of dissent, and expanding to a still greater magnitude the budgets and global reach of the US military and other components of the national security state. Indeed, soon after the terrorist attacks, the Wall Street Journal ran an editorial (September 19), calling on Bush to quickly take advantage of the "unique political climate" to "assert his leadership not just on security and foreign policy but across the board." The editorial summoned the president to push quickly for more tax-rate cuts, expanded oil drilling in Alaska, fast-track authority for trade negotiations, and raids on the Social Security surplus.

More for War

Bush himself noted that the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon offer "an opportunity" to "strengthen America." As numerous conservatives spoke eagerly of putting the country on a permanent war footing, the president proudly declared "the first war of the twenty-first century" against an unspecified enemy to extend over an indefinite time frame. Swept along in the jingoist tide, that gaggle of political wimps known as the US Congress granted Bush the power to initiate military action against any nation, organization, or individual of his choosing, without ever having to proffer evidence to justify the attack. Such an unlimited grant of arbitrary power--in violation of international law, the UN charter, and the US Constitution--transforms the almost-elected president into an absolute monarch who can exercise life-and-death power over any quarter of the world. Needless to say, numerous other nations have greeted the president's elevation to King of the Planet with something less than enthusiasm.

And King of the Planet is how he is acting, bombing the already badly battered and impoverished country of Afghanistan supposedly to "get" Osama bin Laden. Unmentioned in all this is that US leaders have actively fostered and financed the rise of the Taliban, and have long refused to go after bin Laden. Meanwhile, the White House announces that other countries may be bombed at will and the war will continue for many years. And Deputy Defense Secretary Paul D. Wolfowitz urges that U.S. armed forces be allowed to engage in domestic law enforcement, a responsibility that has been denied the military since 1878.

Under pressure to present a united front against terrorism, Democratic legislators are rolling over on the issue of military spending. Opposition to the so-called missile defense shield seems to have evaporated, as has willingness to preserve the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty. The lawmakers seem ready to come up with most of the $8.3 billion that the White House says it needs to develop the missile defense shield and move forward with militarizing outer space. Congress is marching in lockstep behind Bush's proposal to jack up the military budget to $328.9 billion for 2002, a spending increase of $38.2 billion over the enacted FY 2001 budget. Additional funds have been promised to the National Security Agency, the Central Intelligence Agency, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and other skulduggery units of the national security state.

Having been shown that the already gargantuan defense budget was not enough to stop a group of suicidal hijackers armed with box cutters, Bush and Congress thought it best to pour still more money into the pockets of the military-industrial cartel. (Incidentally, the next largest arms budget is Russia's at $51 billion. If we add up the defense allocations of all the leading industrial nations, it comes to less than what the United States is already spending.)

Wag the Dog

Many of the measures being taken to "fight terrorism" have little to do with actual security and are public relations ploys designed to (a) heighten the nation's siege psychology and (b) demonstrate that the government has things under control. So aircraft carriers are deployed off the coast of New York to "guard the city"; national guardsmen dressed in combat fatigues and armed with automatic weapons "patrol the airports"; sidewalk baggage check-ins and electronic tickets are prohibited supposedly to create "greater security." Since increased security leads to greater inconvenience, it has been decided that greater inconvenience will somehow increase security--or at least give the appearance of greater security.

Then there is that biggest public relations ploy of all, the bombing of hillsides and villages in Afghanistan, leaving us with the reassuring image of Uncle Sam striking back at the terrorists. To stop the bombing, the Taliban offered to hand over bin Laden to a third country to stand trial, now without even seeing any evidence against him. But this was rejected by the White House. It seems that displaying US retaliatory power and establishing a military presence in that battered country are the primary US goals, not apprehending bin Laden.

Lost in all this is the fact that US leaders have been the greatest purveyors of terrorism throughout the world. In past decades they or their surrogate mercenary forces have unleashed terror bombing campaigns against unarmed civilian populations, destroying houses, schools, hospitals, churches, hotels, factories, farms, bridges, and other nonmilitary targets in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, East Timor, the Congo, Panama, Grenada, El Salvador, Guatemala, Angola, Mozambique, Somalia, Iraq, Yugoslavia, and numerous other countries, causing death and destruction to millions of innocents. Using death squad terrorism US leaders have also been successful in destroying reformist and democratic movements in scores of countries. Of course hardly a word of this is uttered in the corporate media, leaving Bush and company free to parade themselves as the champions of peace and freedom.

In time, the American people may catch wise that the reactionaries in the White House have not the slightest clue about how they are going to save us from future assaults. They seem more interested in--and are certainly more capable of--taking advantage of terrorist attacks than in preventing them. They have neither the interest nor the will to make the kind of major changes in policy that would dilute the hatred so many people around the world feel toward US power. They are too busy handing the world over to the transnational corporate giants at the expense of people everywhere. And as of now, they have no intention of making a 180 degree shift away from unilateral global domination and toward collective betterment and mutual development.

Reactionary Offensive on the Home Front

Several bills pending in Congress are designed to expand the definition of terrorism to include all but the most innocuous forms of protest. S 1510, for example, treats terrorism as any action that might potentially put another person at risk. The bill gives the Feds power to seize the assets of any organization or individual deemed to be aiding or abetting "terrorist activity." And it can be applied retroactively without a statute of limitations. A telephone interview I did with Radio Tehran in mid-October, trying to explain why US foreign policy is so justifiably hated around the world, might qualify me for detention as someone who is abetting terrorism.

Other bills will expand the authority of law enforcement officials to use wiretaps, detain immigrants, subpoena email and Internet records, and infiltrate protest organizations. Some nine hundred people have already been rounded up and put into "preventive detention," with no charges brought against them and no legal redress. In keeping with the reactionary Right's agenda, the war against terrorism has become a cover for the war against democratic dissent and public sector services. The message is clear, America must emulate not Athens but Sparta.

One of the White House's earliest steps to protect the country from terrorist violence was to cut from the proposed federal budget the $15.7 million slated to assist little children who are victims of domestic abuse or abandonment. Certainly a nation at war has no resources to squander on battered kids or other such frills. Instead Congress passed a $40 billion supplemental, including $20 billion for "recovery efforts," much of it to help clean up and repair New York's financial district.

Bush then came up with an "emergency package" for the airlines, $5 billion in direct cash and $10 billion in loan guarantees, with the promise of billions more. The airlines were beset by fiscal problems well before the September attacks. This bailout has little to do with fighting terrorism. The costs for greater airport security will mostly likely be picked up by the federal government. And taken together, the loss of four planes by United and American Airlines, the impending lawsuits by victims' families, and higher insurance rates do not of themselves create industry-wide insolvency, and do not justify a multibillion dollar bailout. The real story is that once the industry was deregulated, the airlines began overcapitalizing without sufficient regard for earnings, the assumption being that profits would follow after a company squeezed its competitors to the wall by grabbing a larger chunk of the market. So the profligate diseconomies of "free market" corporate competition are once more picked up by the US taxpayer--this time in the name of fighting terrorism.

Meanwhile some 80,000 airline employees were laid off in the several weeks after the terrorist attack, including ticket agents, flight attendants, pilots, mechanics, and ramp workers. They will not see a penny of the windfall reaped by the airline plutocrats and shareholders, whose patriotism does not extend to giving their employees a helping hand. At one point in the House debate, a frustrated Rep. Jay Inslee (D-Wash.) shouted out, "Why in this chamber do the big dogs always eat first?" Inslee was expressing his concerns about the 20,000 to 30,000 Boeing workers who were being let go without any emergency allocation for their families. Sen. Peter G. Fitzgerald (R-Ill.) expressed a similar sentiment when casting the lone dissenting vote in the Senate against the airline bailout: "Congress should be wary of indiscriminately dishing out taxpayer dollars to prop up a failing industry without demanding something in return for taxpayers." It remained for Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) to explain on behalf of the Bush warmongers why the handout was necessary: "We need to look at transportation again as part of our national defense."

The post-September 11 anti-terrorism hype is serving as an excuse to silence any opposition to drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. Our nation needs oil to maintain its strength and security, we hear. Against this manipulative message, the environment does not stand much of a chance. Likewise, US Trade representative Zoellick enlisted the terrorism hype in the White House' s campaign to surrender our democratic sovereignty to corporate dominated international trade councils. In a Washington Post op-ed (September 20) Zoellick charged that opposition to fast track and globalization was akin to supporting the terrorists. House Republican leaders joined in, claiming that trade legislation was needed to solidify the global coalition fighting terrorism. Here was yet another overreaching opportunistic attempt to wrap the flag around a reactionary special interest.

Actually it is the free trade agreements that threaten our democratic sovereignty. All public programs and services that regulate or infringe in any way upon big-money corporate capitalism can be rolled back by industry-dominated oligarchic trade councils. Corporations can now tell governments--including our federal, state, and local governments--what public programs and regulations are acceptable or unacceptable. The reactionaries do not explain how giving private, nonelective, corporate-dominated trade councils a supranational supreme power to override our laws and our Constitution will help in the war against terrorism.

Looting the Surplus

The bailout to the airline industry is only part of the spending spree that the White House has in store for us. Bush now endorses a "stimulus" of $60 billion to $75 billion to lift the country out of recession by "recharging business investment." He also has called for an additional $60 billion tax cut which, like previous tax reductions, would give meager sums to ordinary folks and lavish amounts to fat cats and plutocrats. Where is all this money for defense, war, internal security, airlines, rebuilding lower Manhattan, tax cuts, and recharging the economy coming from? Much of it is from the Social Security surplus fund--which is why Bush is so eager to spend.

It is a myth that conservatives are practitioners of fiscal responsibility. Rightwing politicians who sing hymns to a balanced budget have been among the wildest deficit spenders. In twelve years (1981-1992) the Reagan-Bush administrations increased the national debt from $850 billion to $4.5 trillion. By early 2000, the debt had climbed to over $5.7 trillion. The deficit is pumped up by two things: first, successive tax cuts to rich individuals and corporations--so that the government increasingly borrows from the wealthy creditors it should be taxing, and second, titanic military budgets. In twelve years, the Reagan-Bush expenditures on the military came to $3.7 trillion. In eight years, Bill Clinton spent over $2 trillion on the military.

The payments on the national debt amount to about $350 billion a year, representing a colossal upward redistribution of income from working taxpayers to rich creditors. The last two Clinton budgets were the first to trim away the yearly deficit and produce a surplus. The first Bush budget also promised to produce a surplus, almost all of it from Social Security taxes. As a loyal representative of financial interests, George W., like his daddy, prefers the upward redistribution of income that comes with a large deficit. The creditor class, composed mostly of superrich individuals and financial institutions, wants this nation to be in debt to it--the same way it wants every other nation to be in debt to it.

Furthermore, the reactionary enemies of Social Security have long argued that the fund will eventually become insolvent and must therefore be privatized (We must destroy the fund in order to save it.) But with Social Security continuing to produce record surpluses, this argument becomes increasingly implausible. By defunding Social Security, either through privatization or deficit spending or both, Bush achieves a key goal of the reactionary agenda.

How Far the Flag?

As of October 2001, almost-elected president Bush sported a 90 percent approval rating, as millions rallied around the flag. A majority support his military assault upon the people of Afghanistan, in the mistaken notion that this will stop terrorism and protect US security. But before losing heart, keep a few things in mind. There are millions of people who, though deeply disturbed by the terrible deeds of September 11, and apprehensive about future attacks, are not completely swept up in the reactionary agenda. Taking an approach that would utilize international law and diplomacy has gone unmentioned in the corporate media, yet 30 percent of Americans support that option, compared to 54 percent who support military actions (with 16 percent undecided) according to a recent Gallup poll. Quite likely a majority of Americans would support an international law approach if they had ever heard it discussed and explained seriously.

In any case, there are millions of people in the US who want neither protracted wars nor a surrender of individual rights and liberties, nor drastic cuts in public services and retirement funds. Tens of thousands have taken to the streets not to hail the chief but to oppose his war and his reactionary agenda. Even among the flag-waivers, support for Bush seems to be a mile wide and an inch deep. The media-pumped jingoistic craze that grips the United States today is mostly just that, a craze. In time, it grows stale and reality returns. One cannot pay the grocery bills with flags or pay the rent with vengeful slogans.

My thoughts go back to another President Bush, George the first, who early in 1991 had an approval rating of 93 percent, and a fawning resolution from Congress hailing his "unerring leadership." Yet within the year, he was soundly defeated for reelection by a garrulous governor from Arkansas. Those who believe in democracy must be undeterred in their determination to educate, organize, and agitate. In any case, swimming against the current is always preferable to being swept over the waterfall.

Among Michael Parenti's recent books are History as Mystery, and the 7th edition of Democracy for the Few.

by red eyes
get the red out
by Osama bin Laidoff
Enron execs looted company prior to bankruptcy
By Joseph Kay
22 June 2002

Documents filed in a New York court by the energy company Enron reveal the extent to which the company’s top executives enriched themselves in the year preceding its bankruptcy. The collapse of the company cost thousands of jobs for ordinary workers and decimated pension savings. The top management, however, walked away with millions of dollars in income and bonuses.

In the year prior to its December 2001 bankruptcy filing, Enron handed out $745 million in payments and stock awards to 144 of its senior executives. The company disclosed that these executives received $310 million in salary, bonuses, loan advances and other income. $435 million came in the form of exercised stock options and restricted stock packages. These figures include the $54.6 million in retention bonuses that were given to 200 executives in the days immediately preceding the declaration of bankruptcy.

Included among those receiving the biggest windfalls was Kenneth Lay, former chairman of the company, who raked in $150 million in income, bonuses and stock packages. Former chief executive Jeffrey Skilling took in $25 million and former chief financial officer Andrew Fastow, over $10 million. Thomas White, the current army secretary in the Bush administration who was a top executive in the company’s energy-services sector, received $17 million.

Included in Lay’s figures is a whopping $81.5 million in loan advances, which were mostly repaid in Enron stock, and which are worth next to nothing today. Lay also exercised $34.4 million worth of stock options and was given a restricted stock deal worth $14.7 million. Some of these figures are estimates, since in some cases it is unclear how much of the payments in stock were actually cashed before the company’s collapse.

The report on the executives’ earnings comes as lawyers for former Enron employees are fighting to increase the meager settlement they have been given. In a deal organized by the AFL-CIO, most of 4,200 Enron employees who were laid off after the bankruptcy filing were originally slotted to receive a maximum severance package of $5,600. This hardly covers the amount workers lost after the value of Enron stock collapsed. At the encouragement of management, most of the workers had heavily invested their 401(k) retirement packages in the company. The 24,000 participants in Enron’s retirement plans lost as much as $1 billion, or an average of $4,666 each. The workers who were laid off also had their health coverage and other benefits immediately discontinued.

Eli Gottesdiener, one of the lawyers representing these employees, stated in reaction to the report: “My clients find it outrageous. It’s more evidence that people at the top knew that they should get while the getting was good, while the employees, who weren’t told the truth, were left holding the bag.” Lowell Peterson, another lawyer for the employees, commented: “It sort of shocks the conscience. It’s just not right for a company to be run as a private piggy bank for its officers, who then proceed to run it into the ground, costing 4,200 their jobs.”

Earlier this month, an agreement was worked out between Enron, the former employees’ lawyers—who are paid by the AFL-CIO—and representatives of Enron’s creditors. This agreement, which still has to be approved by the bankruptcy court handling Enron’s case, would increase the maximum severance package to $13,500. The actual amount received will depend on the length of tenure of the individual employee.

The agreement will also allow the employees to take Enron to court in an attempt to get back some of the money paid in retention bonuses just prior to the bankruptcy. Retention bonuses are often handed out to executives after a bankruptcy is announced, in an attempt to keep them from leaving for other companies. The Enron bonuses, however, were not only exorbitant—in some cases in the millions of dollars—but were also handed out before the bankruptcy was announced. Because of this, the bonuses did not have to be cleared by the bankruptcy court. However, the way the agreement was structured ensures that most of the money will probably stay where it is. Employees will have to go after the executives in court on a case-by- case basis and prove that each bonus was unjustified.

The Enron executives also face the possibility that they will have to give back some of these bonuses to Enron’s creditors. Under bankruptcy law, payments made within 90 days of a declared bankruptcy may be subject to the demands of creditors. The creditors, however, were not subjected to the same abuse meted out to the Enron workers. The big commercial and investment banks such as J.P. Morgan Chase, Citibank, and UBS Warburg, together with other creditors, including Enron’s former auditor Arthur Andersen, received almost $3.6 billion in payments just prior to the bankruptcy filing.

The phenomenon of CEOs and other executives walking away from their bankrupt companies with their pockets filled has become a common feature of modern American capitalism. After running an enterprise on the basis of fraud, criminality and cooked books, executives proceed to jump from the rickety and irreparably damaged planes that they have built with a so-called “golden parachute,” leaving the workers to suffer the crash. All of this money is essentially stolen cash, reaped from the company’s workers, those who invested in the criminally overvalued stocks and did not get out in time, and even from other companies. This phenomenon is part and parcel of an economic system that functions more and more through theft and wealth transfer than by the actual production of goods and services.

Former Tyco CEO Dennis Kozlowski, who recently resigned from the company shortly before being indicted on charges of tax evasion, is nevertheless expected to get a package worth tens of millions. Richard McGinn, former CEO of Lucent Technologies, was dismissed after the company ran into earnings trouble. He got a deal worth $12.5 million shortly before the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) began an investigation of possible accounting fraud committed during his tenure.

The former CEO of Adelphia, John Rigas—who used the company essentially as a private bank for his own enrichment and that of his family, looting the firm of tens of millions—left with a severance package giving him $1.4 million a year for three years. Bernard Ebbers, the former CEO of the collapsed telecommunications firm WorldCom, left under pressure with a deal worth $1.5 million a year as long as he lives. And the retailer Kmart handed out millions of dollars to its executives just prior to declaring bankruptcy and slashing thousands of jobs.

by Omama bin Laidoff
I don't know why its coming up red. Maybe because I'm a commie.
by Husain Haqqani
"
Dubai: Saturday, June 22, 2002

Challenge of terrorism must be faced squarely
Islamabad | By Husain Haqqani

The terrorist attack on the United States consulate in Karachi leaves no doubt that Pakistan is now a major target of groups linked to Al Qaida. It is not the first time that extremists have targeted the interests of the U.S. or its allies in Pakistan.

Officials may well say that the current wave of terrorism, beginning with the church attack in Islamabad and including the car bombing that killed 11 French naval engineers in Karachi, is the price Pakistan is having to pay for supporting the U.S. since September 11. But the price Pakistan is paying may be for allowing militants from all over the Muslim world to transit to and from Afghanistan since 1979.

Officials have mentioned the possibility of Indian complicity in the Karachi bombing. But playing the traditional South Asian blame game without substantive evidence serves no purpose except to divert attention from Al Qaida linked groups.

The recent India-Pakistan crisis has been defused as a result of international, notably U.S., intercession. Neither side needs to go back to the brink by invoking old allegations that are not relevant in the new situation. It is time to prepare Pakistani public opinion for the hard truth about terrorism, whether home-grown (as in the case of the sectarian groups) or imported from elsewhere.

Instead of facing the challenge squarely, officials have been somewhat shy about admitting the presence of Al Qaida in Pakistan. During the anti-Soviet Afghan resistance, militants from all over the Muslim world transited through Pakistan to participate in the Afghan Jihad. Some of them created covert networks within Pakistan, taking advantage of poor law enforcement and the state's ambiguity towards Pan-Islamic militancy.

Bases disrupted

Now that Al Qaida and Taliban bases in Afghanistan have been disrupted, they are using their former transit station as a temporary staging ground. Pakistan's law enforcement and intelligence machinery may, by official reckoning, be doing everything within its means to identify and arrest terrorists. But the best of Pakistani law enforcement is often hardly good enough. In any case, terrorism is never an easy enemy to defeat, and every victory against it is followed by an unpredictable new attack.

If General Pervez Musharraf's commitment to opposing terrorist groups is irreversible (as it appears to be), there is no reason for government spokesmen to deny the existence of terrorist groups within the country. Recognising and meeting the challenges posed by these terrorists to Pakistan and the world must become the first priority of Musharraf's regime.

Terrorist attacks in Pakistan did not start merely because of Musharraf's recent avowed policies, although the post-September 11 shift in the country's stance has increased their frequency and intensity. Al Qaida's ally, Egyptian Jihad, bombed and destroyed the Egyptian embassy in Islamabad on November 19, 1995. A few months earlier, on March 8, 1995, two employees of the U.S. consulate in Karachi, Gary Durell and Jacqueline Van Landingham, were killed in a terrorist attack on a consulate van. On April 22, 1996 explosive devices were hurled at the U.S. Information Service building in Lahore. Four Americans and two Pakistanis working with the Union Texas Oil Company were killed on November 12, 1997, again in Karachi. On November 12, 1999 co-ordinated rocket attacks targeted offices of the U.S. government as well as the UN in Islamabad.

It is obvious that terrorism was at work in Pakistan before and is now menacing the country with a vengeance. Musharraf's decision to fight a multi-pronged battle - against domestic political rivals, India and terrorism - could give the terrorists an advantage. They have nothing to protect, only targets to destroy. Musharraf, on the other hand, must safeguard Pakistan's interests in addition to keeping himself in power. It is time for him to face the dilemmas and domestic consequences of the decision to reverse Pakistan's 25-year-old involvement with Jihad and Islamic militancy.

The diminishing of the recent stand-off with India has given Musharraf some breathing space. But despite lessening of tensions, India appears unwilling to withdraw its troops from the border. It wants to use its military mobilisation for the non-military purpose of causing economic hardship for Pakistan in terms of the cost of battle readiness.

The recent reduction in India-Pakistan tension is based on U.S. verification of an end to Pakistani support for Kashmiri militancy. The indigenous Kashmiri groups will most probably keep up their fight, as will those Al Qaida types who are already inside India or in Jammu and Kashmir. But, helped by U.S. intelligence, India is expected to know the extent and nature of Pakistani support for the militants.

Dialogue

The U.S. also seems to have assured Musharraf that it will urge India to resume dialogue with him. But while the U.S. may keep its promise of urging India, it is in no position to coerce compliance from New Delhi. Pakistan could soon find that it is having to clamp down on the militants without necessarily securing a discussion over the future of Jammu and Kashmir. Musharraf has a tough act on his hands, one that requires political skills that he is not known to possess.

He will have to roll back the Jihadi movement, without seeming to do so on American or Indian orders and without getting an immediate quid pro quo over Kashmir. He will probably face defiance from militants and religious parties, as well as from ideologues within Pakistan's establishment. He could pull through if he reached out to mainstream political parties and if India eased pressure on him.

The problem is that Musharraf hates Pakistan's politicians almost as much as he dislikes India. He is loathe to compromise with either. Believing, as he does, in his good luck, he could be tempted to take on the militants and Islamist ideologues without cutting a deal with mainstream politicians at home.

He could also try to keep up his anti-India rhetoric at least in public, which may not go down too well with the BJP and the RSS hardliners on the other side of the border. These hardliners may then seek ways of embarrassing him, which would bring back the confrontational mode. If that happens, the breathing space provided by the Armitage and Rumsfeld missions could evaporate in a very short time.

The world continues to see Kashmir in terms of militancy and terrorism (as India describes it) instead of as an issue of self-determination. The legal, moral and political merit of Pakistan's position continues to be ignored despite considerable focus - call it internationalisation - on the question of Kashmir's future. The reason for this lies in factors that Musharraf, as a military man, may not be able to comprehend or accept. Pakistan has consistently neglected non-military aspects of national power, such as intellectual output, economic growth and diplomatic potential. As a result, it has an effective military but is ineffective in most other realms. The greatest tool in statecraft, political skills, cannot evolve in a country where politics remain suspended for long periods.

General Mohammed Moosa, Chief of Pakistan's army during the 1965 war, went on to become governor of then West Pakistan. After his retirement he was asked why he failed so miserably as governor after such an illustrious career as a soldier. Musharraf would do well to pay heed to Moosa's reply: "In the army," he said, "I was trained to locate the enemy and liquidate the enemy. In politics I discovered that things are more complex. It is not always easy to locate who the enemy is and sometimes you discover that you can't liquidate him even if you locate him."

Inability to compromise

Moosa thought his inability to compromise and to cut deals, so useful in the army, was his single biggest failing in politics. In the days to come, Musharraf will have to demonstrate his ability to embrace a paradigm shift and transform from general to politician.

Challenged by terrorists capable of hit-and-run operations, he will need the support of Pakistan's politicians and the understanding of India's leaders. If he continues to antagonise both his "enemies" he will discover that neither can easily be liquidated.

Husain Haqqani is currently a visiting scholar at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in Washington, DC. He served as adviser to Prime Ministers Nawaz Sharif and Benazir Bhutto and as Pakistan's Ambassador to Sri Lanka.

by usa
I am convinced that in the spring of 2000, while I was battling ex-fbi and ex-cia in a kind of psy-ops tit for tat, I have info on some of their female lawyer and female spook wanna be sex orgy adventures, and they don't want me spreading the truth about them all over the country, I was traveling moving around, anyway I'm convinced they knew something about an attack on New York, I thought, and was concerned about upstate, and thought that all this was some sort of natural calamity, not a terrorist attack. You all should follow the line of logic, in 1992 Bill Clinton extorted the Presidency, the powers that be made life hell for Bill for eight years for that one, also set up son of discraced hero to slam him 8 years later, only they ,as so many people really do know had to steal the election to snub the two who had sinned 8 years previous, the main cat, bc had a rabbit up his sleeve. Read the black ops robert anton wilson website list of conspiracies, or pushhamburger.com feedback page, and read the book SPOOKS by Jim Hougan 1978 and heed the warning these ex-fbi ex-cia are a plague on this nation, and our congressman are too cowardly to do anything about it. I cannot of course prove right now what these men knew in the spring of 2000, but I can prove they WERE Clintonistas, with a little Congressional help and the new laws these men can be 'coerced' into confessing what they did know in the spring of 2000, even bc himself knew something to do with the election was up, they were'nt going to let him get away with what he did in 92, tit for tat.
by usa
guess the word for the definition, new ager non philosophically non-human sub species, good german, definition, (target, to be victimized, hostile takeover.) human american brought up by human american parents, both, and old enough to know better, definition, empathetic thoughts, ready for defence of ,even of taking up arms in the state sense, protection of something beautiful or of value. 145 IQ too new agers, watch out.
by Ehonni
Oh yes, the "Gulf of Tonkin" incident...the beginning of the war against North-Vietnam...
What´s about 911! What did the supreme court elected president know...and when did he know it?
by jason accord
When someone is quick to de-bunk anothers theory I can only wonder about the closed mind such an individual. It is far easier to jump on the ( they are just a bunch of paranoids ) band wagon than it is to give facts and ideas real consideration and not a quick pre-judged comment. Don't put your own humility out of the picture.
by jason accord
When someone is quick to de-bunk anothers theory I can only wonder about the closed mind such an individual. It is far easier to jump on the ( they are just a bunch of paranoids ) band wagon than it is to give facts and ideas real consideration and not a quick pre-judged comment. Don't put your own humility out of the picture.
by jason accord
When someone is quick to de-bunk anothers theory I can only wonder about the closed mind such an individual. It is far easier to jump on the ( they are just a bunch of paranoids ) band wagon than it is to give facts and ideas real consideration and not a quick pre-judged comment. Don't put your own humility out of the picture.
by anthony lutz (anthony/lutz [at] hotmail.com)
When hitler first became chancellor of Germany, he ordered hi troops to burn down the Reichstag building in order to blame it on he communists, then he raanted and raved just like Bush shaaking his fis and gave himseelf new "executive powers hat made him dictator-what a simple sceme and it worked!
SOUND ALL-TOO FAMILIAR?
Then we have to remember that it is fact that the CIA (A.K.A. FREEMASON/BUSH) was built by ex Nazi's after WWII also, it is a known fact that The CIA trained and funded these gangbanger amatures who supposadly were the "muscle" for the INSIDE JOB.
YES! I SAID INSIDE JOB. WHY??!!
1. ACUISITION OF FORIEGN RESOURCES: to take down the existing governments in the Caspian Oil Region and put in Bush ( I won't say american and insult all of US) puppet governments to take control of oil , FREE OF CHARGE
2. DOMESTIC CONTROL: o take away our freedoms, privacy etc. possibility of asset confiscation in fuure?
3. CATCH ALL PHRASE "JEW" -or in this case "TERRORIST" now he can go after any organization or persons (probably with big bank account) freeze bank account confiscate bussinses-ANY WHERE IN THE WORLD without proof. (remember only 2 days laer on 9-13 he stared freezing billions of dollors of asset in private accouns all over the world could he have that much proof that they were involved only two days latter?
4. LEGITIMIZE THE ROLE AS PRESIDENT: we all know he did'nt win but how can we say anything now, so much has happened since then right?
WE KNOW HAT THE TRUTH IS OFTEN SOMETING EASIER TO NOT BELIEVE- IT IS EASIER FOR HE MIND. bUT WE CANNOT FORGET HISTORY AAND WHAT IT TEACHES ABOUT THE PAST AND PRESENT. THE PAST BLUEPRINTS OF CRIMES .
YES I BELIEVE GEORGE W. BUSH IS THE MODERN DAY HITLER AS TONY BLAIR PLAYING THE PART OF MUSSOLINI ,BUSH'S STOOGE.
SORRY IF I OFFENDED ANYONE WITH MY "DISALUSSIONS" IM JUST REAL FUCKIN' SCARED MAN. ANHONY/LUTZ [at] HOTMAIL.COM
IM IN COSTA RICA NOW BUT CAN BE REACHED AFTER NOVEMBER 20TH AT 303-201-4400

Just like in the movie Star Wars, the trade unions(WTO etc.) formed the emprire the SENATE was desolved which you will see this November as the Republicans and GOP assholes outweigh the SENATE rendering it powerless , then my fellow alliance, welcome to Nazi Amerika

After all the definition of facism is : A CORPORATE STATE. We all know that there is a fine line beween capitalism and facism and I think weve crossed it.
Where it is WE THE CORPOATIONS and not
WE THE PEOPLE.
by anthony lutz (anthony/lutz [at] hotmail.com)
When hitler first became chancellor of Germany, he ordered hi troops to burn down the Reichstag building in order to blame it on he communists, then he raanted and raved just like Bush shaaking his fis and gave himseelf new "executive powers hat made him dictator-what a simple sceme and it worked! SOUND ALL-TOO FAMILIAR? Then we have to remember that it is fact that the CIA (A.K.A. FREEMASON/BUSH) was built by ex Nazi's after WWII also, it is a known fact that The CIA trained and funded these gangbanger amatures who supposadly were the "muscle" for the INSIDE JOB. YES! I SAID INSIDE JOB. WHY??!! 1. ACUISITION OF FORIEGN RESOURCES: to take down the existing governments in the Caspian Oil Region and put in Bush ( I won't say american and insult all of US) puppet governments to take control of oil , FREE OF CHARGE 2. DOMESTIC CONTROL: o take away our freedoms, privacy etc. possibility of asset confiscation in fuure? 3. CATCH ALL PHRASE "JEW" -or in this case "TERRORIST" now he can go after any organization or persons (probably with big bank account) freeze bank account confiscate bussinses-ANY WHERE IN THE WORLD without proof. (remember only 2 days laer on 9-13 he stared freezing billions of dollors of asset in private accouns all over the world could he have that much proof that they were involved only two days latter? 4. LEGITIMIZE THE ROLE AS PRESIDENT: we all know he did'nt win but how can we say anything now, so much has happened since then right? WE KNOW HAT THE TRUTH IS OFTEN SOMETING EASIER TO NOT BELIEVE- IT IS EASIER FOR HE MIND. bUT WE CANNOT FORGET HISTORY AAND WHAT IT TEACHES ABOUT THE PAST AND PRESENT. THE PAST BLUEPRINTS OF CRIMES . YES I BELIEVE GEORGE W. BUSH IS THE MODERN DAY HITLER AS TONY BLAIR PLAYING THE PART OF MUSSOLINI ,BUSH'S STOOGE. SORRY IF I OFFENDED ANYONE WITH MY "DISALUSSIONS" IM JUST REAL FUCKIN' SCARED MAN. ANHONY/LUTZ@HOTMAIL.COM IM IN COSTA RICA NOW BUT CAN BE REACHED AFTER NOVEMBER 20TH AT 303-201-4400 Just like in the movie Star Wars, the trade unions(WTO etc.) formed the emprire the SENATE was desolved which you will see this November as the Republicans and GOP assholes outweigh the SENATE rendering it powerless , then my fellow alliance, welcome to Nazi Amerika After all the definition of facism is : A CORPORATE STATE. We all know that there is a fine line beween capitalism and facism and I think weve crossed it. Where it is WE THE CORPOATIONS and not WE THE PEOPLE.
by kim
...or that 19 Muslim fanatics crashed the four planes on 911 to make a point and to weaken the American people from within. You see, if it was the first case of Islamic terror, i would say theres room for speculation and colourful conspiracy theories. But that is not the case, Muslims have perpetrated hundreds of terror acts around the world for three decades. From plane bombs to hijackings to all sorts of dispicable acts of violance. What happend in 911 merely shows the natural progress of Islamic terror.

If you want to prove any conspiracy theory about what happend on 911, it should be easy enough. There must be thousands of people who are in on this, if it is true. Not so many in the operational side as in the alleged coverup.
by ...............
Here's a good conspiracy theory about 911.
An eleven foot refugee millionaire cleric on dialysis, living in a cave, in a stone age country halfway around the world, assembled a vast global conspiracy with unlimited resources and technical training. Out of their stone age caves they launched a gargantuan hi-tech attack that foiled all of America's intelligence services and mysteriously evaded standard operating procedure of fighter interception / escort of missing airliners (normally within 15 minutes).
Pure mythology. Pure bunk. You wanna talk about fucked up conspiracies? Take a look at the official line.
by me (robinrich7080 [at] aol.com)
jfk jr s plane was taken down by a system called global hawk same thing used in many mysterious plane accidents 9/11
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