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Indybay Feature
The Debate over Empire and the Feud It Caused
The progressive community in Fresno had some excitement in April, which seemed to start with whether or not local community groups should co-sponsor and sell tickets to the Michael Parenti/Victor Hanson debate. The theme of the debate was about US foreign policy, empire, and imperialism. Parenti is progressive and Hanson is well known locally as a conservative. The argument against the debate was that the Sunbird Conservative group was organizing the event and that radio station KMJ was a co-sponsor. Progressives supporting the debate looked forward to the opportunity of hearing two competent speakers civilly discussing an important foreign policy issue. Free speech and the often sought after concept of “not just preaching to the choir” were other arguments made in favor of participating in the event. Photo below: Michael Parenti
The Fresno Pacific University Web site mentions that Fresno became part of the United States as a result of the U.S.-Mexican War.1 Although not advertised as such at the time, historians now agree that U.S. forces, led by General Zachary Taylor, engaged in a war of conquest for territorial expansion that was ended by the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. The war was rationalized in the U.S. by the "patriotic" belief that it would bring Anglo-Saxon institutions into an unenlightened area.
Sound familiar?
On April 17, 2010, Fresno Pacific University's Sunbird Conservatives, a nascent student group generally at political odds with the liberality of the Mennonite college, hosted a debate on American foreign policy at the University's Special Event Center. The contenders were the ubiquitous former classics professor and scholar of ancient war, Victor Davis Hanson, a local hero who gives thin intellectual cover to the Valley's indigenous tea party and hate-radio conservatives, and Michael Parenti, a respected leftist historian and author of numerous books on American imperialism.
Anticipation of the debate whipped up a frenzy of political passions among community groups. The local progressive movement was split between those who actively supported the debate and those who felt revulsion at the very thought of having to listen to Victor Davis Hanson again. After all, isn't he in the Fresno Bee every Sunday, saying the same thing over and over? Badly.
Hanson cheerleads for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan as if Socrates himself would enlist. His latest piece of propaganda, A War Like No Other, a dark retelling of the story of the Peloponnesian War analogized to America's recent war escapades, made even the New York Times call him the "Zenophon of Fresno."2
Those of us who live here know better.
Others thought it was quite remarkable that the Sunbird Conservatives had set up their fans to hear Michael Parenti.3 These progressive groups, the Community Alliance, the Fresno Center for Nonviolence and Peace Fresno, actively supported the debate by sponsoring it, selling tickets and encouraging progressives to
attend.
Three members of Peace Fresno resigned in protest of the organization's support for the debate, and the Women's International League for Peace and Freedom Board voted not to support the event. The Peace Fresno membership called a special meeting to cast a near-unanimous vote of confidence in its leadership. The good news is that the progressive community in Fresno can afford to splinter into pieces, just like in a big city.
It was assumed by this writer that the debate was of much less import to Hanson and Parenti than it was to the community. Hanson seems to be arrogantly emboldened by his brushes with greatness at confabs with Dick Cheney and Paul Wolfowitz, so much so he's careless with his thoughts and his words. He has been called the Bush administration's "tamed academic and house historian."4 And Parenti once told me, after a speech to the progressive community here, that he didn't think anyone in the audience understood what he was saying. Both got a fat check for $3,000 from the Sunbirds and quickly moved on to the next remunerative talk. Parenti had to be in Ventura by 6 p.m. for his second round of talking to a more like-minded audience.
We who listened to them ever so carefully discussed it heatedly for days, with varied opinions on their performances and who won in the end.
For all the excitement in the run-up to this event, the scene was deadly dull. Tables along the walls were covered with free literature, but no one seemed interested. I picked up David Horowitz's little pamphlet, Barack Obama's Rules for Revolution: The Alinsky Model, and learned that Rachael Carson murdered 100 million black African children under the age of five by writing Silent Spring,5 which caused the ban of DDT and thereby enabled a vast and deadly spread of malaria (Id., at p. 21.) A one-page handout informed me that CampusReform.org is teaching students how to monitor their professors for the spread of left-wing ideas. Perhaps CampusReform.org is the source for the Sunbird Conservatives planned "Campus Watch" program, which will call on students to report to parents, churches and university donors if their teachers espouse leftist ideas or debase conservative traditions.
There were books and more books about Ronald Reagan; Ronald Reagan calendars, t-shirts, mementos; and Ronald Reagan movies about Ronald Reagan. George W. Bush had disappeared from the face of the earth, as had his father. As Tina Brown said on public radio, "You would think Ronald Reagan was the cure for erectile dysfunction."
The debate itself was the keynote event of an all-day gathering with a lineup of conservative speakers - radio talk-show hosts (you know them), pastors (you don't know them) and Republicans (all running for what appeared to be the same office since they all said the same thing). At lunch, the audience watched impassively as the Hannah Boys played and sang "Home on the Range" and other Gene Autry tunes.
Members of the supportive progressive groups staffed literature tables, which had been banished to the far end of the auditorium, while those of us who weren't busy being deliberately ignored by the rest of the audience infiltrated the scene by scattering ourselves among the tables. This was a smart move - it made our applause for Parenti sound louder than it was.
The room rustled with signs of life when the debate began. The college president, D. Merrill Ewert, discouraged overt displays of hostility by thanking the Sunbirds for their involvement as students and by calling on everyone to treat the debaters with civility and respect. The debate format was formal and enforced by a little dinner bell that ding-a-linged when the speakers ran out of time.
Victor Davis Hanson began by describing the vast "profile" of the United States from "Coca-Cola to chemotherapy" and attributed our enormous power in the world to our "transparent" constitution. Although we are a huge power, we are generous to our colonies: Puerto Rico can do what it wants and the Philippines is free and democratic. After we win a war against an enemy, we rebuild what we destroyed. (Apparently, this is a good thing.)
Millions of people come to the United States voluntarily every year "voting with their feet." The people of the world want to live in a democratic, capitalist country. North Koreans would rather live in the South and, until recently, the Chinese would rather live in Hong Kong. Hanson was proud of the recent elections in Iraq and considered our war there a success.
Hanson's theme song was that while America has its flaws, compared to other, more malevolent nations, it is a wonder of democracy, prosperity and opportunity. The United States "does not have to be perfect to be good." While some may call us homophobic, in Iran, they execute homosexuals. While some may call us racist, in China, they arrest Muslims. And so on.
Parenti's argument is that the American empire is not so benign. Although we are not colonialists in the British sense, having tea, patting zebras and shooting rebels, we have the advantages of colonialism. Our neo-colonialist boot on the rest of the world - 100 military bases in 80 countries - is a threat to the basic values of our republic.
Parenti is a more knowledgeable and subtle historian than Hanson, but he lacks Hanson's ability to make outrageous and often false bumper sticker statements that sound as though they embody a shared consensus. Hanson shocked several of us when he said Castro killed 20,000 dissidents. Parenti recoiled: "Now, we can debate, but we can't just make things up."
But Hanson went on making things up. He got even sloppier with the facts. As Chris Bray said in Reason Magazine, "Hanson decides what he wants history to say, and then he tortures it until it complies."
Hanson said only 4% of our gross domestic product is spent on defense, whereas 70% is spent on entitlement programs. The defense budget is enormous because most of it is spent on Veteran's Affairs, including the education of soldiers. Parenti said he was willing to stand corrected, but last he heard the Veteran's Department was not part of the Pentagon. Hanson said that the problems besetting the budget when Bush left office were caused by the prescription drug bill (the Medicare Modernization Act of 2003) and No Child Left Behind.
When Parenti eloquently described our lamentable treatment of Haiti over the years, including our occupation from 1915 to 1934, Hanson said, "Haiti will never look like Carmel."
The audience was quiet during most of this banter back and forth, but it heated up approvingly when Hanson said we should be ashamed to be the only country in the world that allows its own lawyers to defend its enemies in a time of war. This brought on huge applause. Perhaps the audience did not know this, but Hanson was referring to a U.S. Supreme Court decision that unequivocally told the Bush administration it could not detain people in Guantanamo and elsewhere forever without providing them with an opportunity to be heard in a court of law.
When asked if the Marshall Plan was a form of imperialism, Parenti said it was designed to "save capitalism." For a nano-second, the audience began to boo; then it self-corrected, realizing that it was for capitalism. Parenti confused people.
Hanson talked about how terrific his veteran students at Fresno State were, particularly when compared with the liberal arts majors. The audience loved this and applauded enthusiastically. These "vets" had been educated in the military, they had a "world view," and, Hanson went on, "whatever the military is doing, I'm impressed, and what the university is doing, I'm skeptical." Parenti responded to this by saying the treatment we provide to veterans is a national disgrace. They are kicked to the side of the road when they are no longer useful to us. At this, the audience had to applaud - there were veterans and parents of veterans present. But he went on from there. "And this simple fact, the way we treat our veterans, tells us all who these wars are really for. They are for the multi-national corporations like Blackwater who bleed us to death in the name of patriotism."
The program ended with Fresmp Pacific's president extending thanks to the various community groups who supported the event. He named the Community Alliance, the Fresno Center for Nonviolence, and Peace Fresno, along with the others who will go unmentioned here.
Perhaps I am delusional, but I thought some people in the audience were troubled by what they heard. But, then again, maybe not.
*****
1http://studentlife.fresno.edu/things-do/living-fresno/history
2Brecher, Gary, "It's All Greek to Victor Davis Hanson", eXile, a Moscow-based weekly newspaper at http://www.amconmag.com/article/2005/dec/19/00029/.
3Michael Parenti is the author of several books on imperialism, including Against Empire (1995).
4Taylor, John, "Thucydides vs. Victor Davis Hanson", Anti-War, September 6, 2007 at http://www.antiwar.com/orig/jtaylor.php?articleid=11557.
5Houghten Miffin (1962).
Sound familiar?
On April 17, 2010, Fresno Pacific University's Sunbird Conservatives, a nascent student group generally at political odds with the liberality of the Mennonite college, hosted a debate on American foreign policy at the University's Special Event Center. The contenders were the ubiquitous former classics professor and scholar of ancient war, Victor Davis Hanson, a local hero who gives thin intellectual cover to the Valley's indigenous tea party and hate-radio conservatives, and Michael Parenti, a respected leftist historian and author of numerous books on American imperialism.
Anticipation of the debate whipped up a frenzy of political passions among community groups. The local progressive movement was split between those who actively supported the debate and those who felt revulsion at the very thought of having to listen to Victor Davis Hanson again. After all, isn't he in the Fresno Bee every Sunday, saying the same thing over and over? Badly.
Hanson cheerleads for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan as if Socrates himself would enlist. His latest piece of propaganda, A War Like No Other, a dark retelling of the story of the Peloponnesian War analogized to America's recent war escapades, made even the New York Times call him the "Zenophon of Fresno."2
Those of us who live here know better.
Others thought it was quite remarkable that the Sunbird Conservatives had set up their fans to hear Michael Parenti.3 These progressive groups, the Community Alliance, the Fresno Center for Nonviolence and Peace Fresno, actively supported the debate by sponsoring it, selling tickets and encouraging progressives to
attend.
Three members of Peace Fresno resigned in protest of the organization's support for the debate, and the Women's International League for Peace and Freedom Board voted not to support the event. The Peace Fresno membership called a special meeting to cast a near-unanimous vote of confidence in its leadership. The good news is that the progressive community in Fresno can afford to splinter into pieces, just like in a big city.
It was assumed by this writer that the debate was of much less import to Hanson and Parenti than it was to the community. Hanson seems to be arrogantly emboldened by his brushes with greatness at confabs with Dick Cheney and Paul Wolfowitz, so much so he's careless with his thoughts and his words. He has been called the Bush administration's "tamed academic and house historian."4 And Parenti once told me, after a speech to the progressive community here, that he didn't think anyone in the audience understood what he was saying. Both got a fat check for $3,000 from the Sunbirds and quickly moved on to the next remunerative talk. Parenti had to be in Ventura by 6 p.m. for his second round of talking to a more like-minded audience.
We who listened to them ever so carefully discussed it heatedly for days, with varied opinions on their performances and who won in the end.
For all the excitement in the run-up to this event, the scene was deadly dull. Tables along the walls were covered with free literature, but no one seemed interested. I picked up David Horowitz's little pamphlet, Barack Obama's Rules for Revolution: The Alinsky Model, and learned that Rachael Carson murdered 100 million black African children under the age of five by writing Silent Spring,5 which caused the ban of DDT and thereby enabled a vast and deadly spread of malaria (Id., at p. 21.) A one-page handout informed me that CampusReform.org is teaching students how to monitor their professors for the spread of left-wing ideas. Perhaps CampusReform.org is the source for the Sunbird Conservatives planned "Campus Watch" program, which will call on students to report to parents, churches and university donors if their teachers espouse leftist ideas or debase conservative traditions.
There were books and more books about Ronald Reagan; Ronald Reagan calendars, t-shirts, mementos; and Ronald Reagan movies about Ronald Reagan. George W. Bush had disappeared from the face of the earth, as had his father. As Tina Brown said on public radio, "You would think Ronald Reagan was the cure for erectile dysfunction."
The debate itself was the keynote event of an all-day gathering with a lineup of conservative speakers - radio talk-show hosts (you know them), pastors (you don't know them) and Republicans (all running for what appeared to be the same office since they all said the same thing). At lunch, the audience watched impassively as the Hannah Boys played and sang "Home on the Range" and other Gene Autry tunes.
Members of the supportive progressive groups staffed literature tables, which had been banished to the far end of the auditorium, while those of us who weren't busy being deliberately ignored by the rest of the audience infiltrated the scene by scattering ourselves among the tables. This was a smart move - it made our applause for Parenti sound louder than it was.
The room rustled with signs of life when the debate began. The college president, D. Merrill Ewert, discouraged overt displays of hostility by thanking the Sunbirds for their involvement as students and by calling on everyone to treat the debaters with civility and respect. The debate format was formal and enforced by a little dinner bell that ding-a-linged when the speakers ran out of time.
Victor Davis Hanson began by describing the vast "profile" of the United States from "Coca-Cola to chemotherapy" and attributed our enormous power in the world to our "transparent" constitution. Although we are a huge power, we are generous to our colonies: Puerto Rico can do what it wants and the Philippines is free and democratic. After we win a war against an enemy, we rebuild what we destroyed. (Apparently, this is a good thing.)
Millions of people come to the United States voluntarily every year "voting with their feet." The people of the world want to live in a democratic, capitalist country. North Koreans would rather live in the South and, until recently, the Chinese would rather live in Hong Kong. Hanson was proud of the recent elections in Iraq and considered our war there a success.
Hanson's theme song was that while America has its flaws, compared to other, more malevolent nations, it is a wonder of democracy, prosperity and opportunity. The United States "does not have to be perfect to be good." While some may call us homophobic, in Iran, they execute homosexuals. While some may call us racist, in China, they arrest Muslims. And so on.
Parenti's argument is that the American empire is not so benign. Although we are not colonialists in the British sense, having tea, patting zebras and shooting rebels, we have the advantages of colonialism. Our neo-colonialist boot on the rest of the world - 100 military bases in 80 countries - is a threat to the basic values of our republic.
Parenti is a more knowledgeable and subtle historian than Hanson, but he lacks Hanson's ability to make outrageous and often false bumper sticker statements that sound as though they embody a shared consensus. Hanson shocked several of us when he said Castro killed 20,000 dissidents. Parenti recoiled: "Now, we can debate, but we can't just make things up."
But Hanson went on making things up. He got even sloppier with the facts. As Chris Bray said in Reason Magazine, "Hanson decides what he wants history to say, and then he tortures it until it complies."
Hanson said only 4% of our gross domestic product is spent on defense, whereas 70% is spent on entitlement programs. The defense budget is enormous because most of it is spent on Veteran's Affairs, including the education of soldiers. Parenti said he was willing to stand corrected, but last he heard the Veteran's Department was not part of the Pentagon. Hanson said that the problems besetting the budget when Bush left office were caused by the prescription drug bill (the Medicare Modernization Act of 2003) and No Child Left Behind.
When Parenti eloquently described our lamentable treatment of Haiti over the years, including our occupation from 1915 to 1934, Hanson said, "Haiti will never look like Carmel."
The audience was quiet during most of this banter back and forth, but it heated up approvingly when Hanson said we should be ashamed to be the only country in the world that allows its own lawyers to defend its enemies in a time of war. This brought on huge applause. Perhaps the audience did not know this, but Hanson was referring to a U.S. Supreme Court decision that unequivocally told the Bush administration it could not detain people in Guantanamo and elsewhere forever without providing them with an opportunity to be heard in a court of law.
When asked if the Marshall Plan was a form of imperialism, Parenti said it was designed to "save capitalism." For a nano-second, the audience began to boo; then it self-corrected, realizing that it was for capitalism. Parenti confused people.
Hanson talked about how terrific his veteran students at Fresno State were, particularly when compared with the liberal arts majors. The audience loved this and applauded enthusiastically. These "vets" had been educated in the military, they had a "world view," and, Hanson went on, "whatever the military is doing, I'm impressed, and what the university is doing, I'm skeptical." Parenti responded to this by saying the treatment we provide to veterans is a national disgrace. They are kicked to the side of the road when they are no longer useful to us. At this, the audience had to applaud - there were veterans and parents of veterans present. But he went on from there. "And this simple fact, the way we treat our veterans, tells us all who these wars are really for. They are for the multi-national corporations like Blackwater who bleed us to death in the name of patriotism."
The program ended with Fresmp Pacific's president extending thanks to the various community groups who supported the event. He named the Community Alliance, the Fresno Center for Nonviolence, and Peace Fresno, along with the others who will go unmentioned here.
Perhaps I am delusional, but I thought some people in the audience were troubled by what they heard. But, then again, maybe not.
*****
1http://studentlife.fresno.edu/things-do/living-fresno/history
2Brecher, Gary, "It's All Greek to Victor Davis Hanson", eXile, a Moscow-based weekly newspaper at http://www.amconmag.com/article/2005/dec/19/00029/.
3Michael Parenti is the author of several books on imperialism, including Against Empire (1995).
4Taylor, John, "Thucydides vs. Victor Davis Hanson", Anti-War, September 6, 2007 at http://www.antiwar.com/orig/jtaylor.php?articleid=11557.
5Houghten Miffin (1962).
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My problem with supporting this "Debate" was that it was a small part of a 2 day right wing conference. By purchasing a ticket to the debate you were subsidizing the cost of a right wing conference. Way to go liberals; You just gave money to a bunch of right wingers.
Well, the comment by Dallas is an interesting interpretation of what happened at the Parenti/Hanson event. Another view is that progressive groups in Fresno ONLY co-sponsored the debate. That is a fact. The progressive groups selling tickets sold them for $10 or $15 each. There might have been 100 progressives there to watch the debate. A few of them may have bought their tickets for $20 each. So, progressives might have contributed $1,500 to cover the expenses of the debate. Michael Parenti was paid $3,000 for his participation. So, can someone explain to me how progressives are funding conservative causes by co-sponsoring this debate?
It seems to me like the conservatives paid money out of their pockets to have Parenti come to Fresno and talk to them about why US imperialism and empire sucks.
It seems to me like the conservatives paid money out of their pockets to have Parenti come to Fresno and talk to them about why US imperialism and empire sucks.
does anyone really care that sunbird conservative students and kmj put on a two day event to celebrate us imperialism and capitalism and that, to give it some kind of veneer of "critical thinking" or "dialogue," they included a debate? anyone who supported this, outside of the right-wing nut jobs for whom it was designed, got played. you are providing the respectability that the far right searches for and does not have unless you give it to them. sorry fresno liberals, once again you let your self-righteous moral purity undercut whatever fragments of political sensibility you might have.
and i bet you will still vote for obama in 2012. y'all are a joke.
and i bet you will still vote for obama in 2012. y'all are a joke.
Following the logic of the comment above (from “Codswallop”) leads to the conclusion that the left should not engage the right in debate about matters of important public policy. If you believe the Parenti/Hanson debate at Pacific University gave the right legitimacy and respectability, then one would have to assume you would be opposed to other similar venues. For example, following that logic, the left would not appear on Fox TV, because that would only give them legitimacy and respectability. Following Codswallop’s logic, the left should never have a spokesperson on KMJ radio in Fresno either, right? Lets not engage the corporate media to provide alternative views to war, racism, and economic justice, because that would “taint” us on the left by having associated with the evil doers.
This moral and political absolutism has serious practical flaws. If you don’t want to be “tainted” by being engaged with people who think differently than you do, then that will box you into a pretty tight little corner.
The left has important ideas that need to be heard and we need to stop just preaching to the choir. If progressives want to have a voice and have a snowballs chance in hell of moving this city, state, and country in a new direction, we need to be willing to have our voices heard. We need to be heard, not just in our own alternative/independent media venues (Indymedia, KFCF 88.1 FM, the Community Alliance, etc) but we also need to be heard in mainstream media and YES at events like the debate at Pacific University.
This moral and political absolutism has serious practical flaws. If you don’t want to be “tainted” by being engaged with people who think differently than you do, then that will box you into a pretty tight little corner.
The left has important ideas that need to be heard and we need to stop just preaching to the choir. If progressives want to have a voice and have a snowballs chance in hell of moving this city, state, and country in a new direction, we need to be willing to have our voices heard. We need to be heard, not just in our own alternative/independent media venues (Indymedia, KFCF 88.1 FM, the Community Alliance, etc) but we also need to be heard in mainstream media and YES at events like the debate at Pacific University.
i lived in fresno a few years ago, and it is good to see that, in the conservative tradition of the town, nothing on "the left" has changed. "speak truth to power" (just never actually attack it), hold up signs on a corner (just never actually go out into the street), make sure "our voices" are heard (just make sure "our voices" never include anyone who falls outside of the pacifistic, do-nothing. morally self-righteous, white upper middle class liberal .5% that is the "left" in fresno), get a few seconds of face time on corporate media (just never take over media), give a right wing student group thousdands of dollars to support your man at a conservative conference (just never disrupt the conference or take it over)..... how's all that working out for you there in fresno? in california? in the u.s.? getting a lot of "progressive" change?
no, by all means, play your meaningless games. all you care about is "feeling" like you have made a difference. actually making a difference would involve risks that you are not prepared to take. probably, in reality, that's exactly how you like it since you are mostly upper middle class white liberals who benefit from the system you pretend to critique.
oh, and apparently rhodes has kicked another person doing free work for him off his rag. that makes, what, a dozen or so?
s.e.
ps--and you will vote for obama, ha, ha, ha!
no, by all means, play your meaningless games. all you care about is "feeling" like you have made a difference. actually making a difference would involve risks that you are not prepared to take. probably, in reality, that's exactly how you like it since you are mostly upper middle class white liberals who benefit from the system you pretend to critique.
oh, and apparently rhodes has kicked another person doing free work for him off his rag. that makes, what, a dozen or so?
s.e.
ps--and you will vote for obama, ha, ha, ha!
I was reading the "codswallop" posts and thoroughly agree with them. I have trouble spelling the word "dilettante", but it applies.
For more information:
http://www.ciafront.com
$1,500 could have been better spent on something else, other than giving it to the Sunbirds. People might as well as written checks to the local Tea Baggers.
As far as the argument that being involved in this so called debate helped get the word out...While it wasn't preaching to the choir; as is normally done in the Community Alliance, on KFCF, Indymedia, etc... It wasn't exactly getting the message out either
Imagine what Fresno could be like if it wasn't for people in the so called left putting their ego's above other peoples. Thinking that they are the authorities of the left, and tainting the progressive and left handle. Keeping us caught in a debate with crazy Tea Baggers, and kicking people who are more critical of things or have a different opinion to the curb.
Not too long ago I remember Mike Rhodes and some of the same folks calling other folks in the local leftist scene domestic terrorists. If you want to talk about taint Mike, you might want to check your own pants first.
Maybe y'all need to take some time to reflect, look in the mirror a bit, because what has happened with Peace Fresno, Community Alliance, and KFCF is that they have been weakened by the sort of authoritarian decision making that was shown in regards to the Sunbirds conference.
We can not really afford divisions in our community or the taint of authoritarianism in our movement.
As far as the argument that being involved in this so called debate helped get the word out...While it wasn't preaching to the choir; as is normally done in the Community Alliance, on KFCF, Indymedia, etc... It wasn't exactly getting the message out either
Imagine what Fresno could be like if it wasn't for people in the so called left putting their ego's above other peoples. Thinking that they are the authorities of the left, and tainting the progressive and left handle. Keeping us caught in a debate with crazy Tea Baggers, and kicking people who are more critical of things or have a different opinion to the curb.
Not too long ago I remember Mike Rhodes and some of the same folks calling other folks in the local leftist scene domestic terrorists. If you want to talk about taint Mike, you might want to check your own pants first.
Maybe y'all need to take some time to reflect, look in the mirror a bit, because what has happened with Peace Fresno, Community Alliance, and KFCF is that they have been weakened by the sort of authoritarian decision making that was shown in regards to the Sunbirds conference.
We can not really afford divisions in our community or the taint of authoritarianism in our movement.
so, supporting Michael Parenti's appearance in opposition to Victor David Revisionists malarky in front of an open and attentive audience is unsupportable, BUT, bringing in Bill Ayers and stoking the fires of censorship and truly brain dead reactionary hatreds which were the main story in the wake of the event, thats a good idea?
That fine line between stupidity and insanity is tough terrain sometimes. Always helps to know when youre dealing with the certified, certifiables.
That fine line between stupidity and insanity is tough terrain sometimes. Always helps to know when youre dealing with the certified, certifiables.
$3,000 paid to Parenti - $1,500 paid by Peace Fresno and others towards Sundbirds conference = $1,500
How the hell is this fuzzy math? Camille and Dan, and whoever else; raised $1,500 for a conference promoting conservativism on the Fresno Pacific campus and in our community. They might as well have just given that to Tea Baggers directly. Who f*&?!! cares that the Sunbirds paid Parenti $1,500 more than they made off a bunch of liberals? Did Parenti then turn around and donate that towards local progressive causes?
Not that it really matters anyway. Cause a lot of good standing on corner does, or for that matter having a rally in the middle of the fairgrounds. And the Community Alliance is a tainted rag anyway that will never improve because Mike Rhodes always seems to mess up. Whether it was with Elfie, "the domestic terrorists", or now these folks who were once again doing design work for him for free.
Oh yeah, but giving right wingers money for a debate and co-sponsoring it, that did a lot of good...
How the hell is this fuzzy math? Camille and Dan, and whoever else; raised $1,500 for a conference promoting conservativism on the Fresno Pacific campus and in our community. They might as well have just given that to Tea Baggers directly. Who f*&?!! cares that the Sunbirds paid Parenti $1,500 more than they made off a bunch of liberals? Did Parenti then turn around and donate that towards local progressive causes?
Not that it really matters anyway. Cause a lot of good standing on corner does, or for that matter having a rally in the middle of the fairgrounds. And the Community Alliance is a tainted rag anyway that will never improve because Mike Rhodes always seems to mess up. Whether it was with Elfie, "the domestic terrorists", or now these folks who were once again doing design work for him for free.
Oh yeah, but giving right wingers money for a debate and co-sponsoring it, that did a lot of good...
Well free speech got privatized a while back, why should there be any here?
This anti-camille/Mike Rhodes/Peace Fresno whatever else agenda is way past reasonable.
Theres no shortage of self centered would be glory hounds that are completely unwilling to do anything for anyone that doesnt polish their own apple. When these types dont get their enlightened politics held up as the one true path, the only one that matters, then they get nasty. You MF'ers that have pulled crap on the CA, that CONSTANTLY bad mouth PF actions, YOU HAVE DONE SO MUCH GOOD for progressive causes... No, actually, you havent done anything but make ridiculous problems for people who actually do bust their ass trying to do decent quality fair reporting and organizing an anti-war community that should be more opposed to government/taxpayer funded injustice than each other. But not for certain lunatics (and their is NO OTHER WORD) who can only respond to their own foolish impulses. Or maybe their madness is methodical? Maybe disruption and dissension are the ideal outcomes for the time they spend "being involved"? No, unfortunately, its just lunacy, jealousy, selfishness, stuff like that. Theres not one stitch of noble sentiment behind this ridiculous pack of three legged rabid dogs. For all practical purposes, freepers are in the house. You know I wont hesitate to criticize somebodies screwups, and you know Im here for you. Good luck :)
This anti-camille/Mike Rhodes/Peace Fresno whatever else agenda is way past reasonable.
Theres no shortage of self centered would be glory hounds that are completely unwilling to do anything for anyone that doesnt polish their own apple. When these types dont get their enlightened politics held up as the one true path, the only one that matters, then they get nasty. You MF'ers that have pulled crap on the CA, that CONSTANTLY bad mouth PF actions, YOU HAVE DONE SO MUCH GOOD for progressive causes... No, actually, you havent done anything but make ridiculous problems for people who actually do bust their ass trying to do decent quality fair reporting and organizing an anti-war community that should be more opposed to government/taxpayer funded injustice than each other. But not for certain lunatics (and their is NO OTHER WORD) who can only respond to their own foolish impulses. Or maybe their madness is methodical? Maybe disruption and dissension are the ideal outcomes for the time they spend "being involved"? No, unfortunately, its just lunacy, jealousy, selfishness, stuff like that. Theres not one stitch of noble sentiment behind this ridiculous pack of three legged rabid dogs. For all practical purposes, freepers are in the house. You know I wont hesitate to criticize somebodies screwups, and you know Im here for you. Good luck :)
Kelly, Mike, et al...
It's strange that you are railing against those who are critical of the decision to sponsor the Sunbirds conference and give them money, especially in light of the reality of the situation.
Folks who are more critical of this decision and others that have been made over the years are not inactive in the community. We just maintain a sizable distrust of certain people in the progressive community because of the way we have seen things work through the years here. I don't think anyone is saying there is one true way, other than dialogue and democracy. When decisions are forcibly pushed through without proper dialogue, names are muddied with name calling and accusations, and groups are undemocratically controlled by an increasingly shrinking number of people...Well, I may agree with Catherine ultimately that there may be space for this to happen, it doesn't serve the community or benefit our cause.
My understanding of insanity is that a person is not sane when they continue to do the same thing over and over again, with the same bad ending, exhibiting a pattern which is detrimental to themselves and others. I don't care to make the judgement about other people's sanity in the left because I think that we are all a little bit off in some way, but trying to figure out how to make the world a saner place. However, if Mike Rhodes and others are really to be considered the only "normal" or sane people in Fresno's left, than I'd rather be considered insane. Maybe simply for no other reason than I don't appreciate the ongoing pattern of deception, name calling, and bridge burning.
It's strange that you are railing against those who are critical of the decision to sponsor the Sunbirds conference and give them money, especially in light of the reality of the situation.
Folks who are more critical of this decision and others that have been made over the years are not inactive in the community. We just maintain a sizable distrust of certain people in the progressive community because of the way we have seen things work through the years here. I don't think anyone is saying there is one true way, other than dialogue and democracy. When decisions are forcibly pushed through without proper dialogue, names are muddied with name calling and accusations, and groups are undemocratically controlled by an increasingly shrinking number of people...Well, I may agree with Catherine ultimately that there may be space for this to happen, it doesn't serve the community or benefit our cause.
My understanding of insanity is that a person is not sane when they continue to do the same thing over and over again, with the same bad ending, exhibiting a pattern which is detrimental to themselves and others. I don't care to make the judgement about other people's sanity in the left because I think that we are all a little bit off in some way, but trying to figure out how to make the world a saner place. However, if Mike Rhodes and others are really to be considered the only "normal" or sane people in Fresno's left, than I'd rather be considered insane. Maybe simply for no other reason than I don't appreciate the ongoing pattern of deception, name calling, and bridge burning.
When I mention people being crazy, Im quite sincere and correct. There is no shortage of people with issues in these parts, but some people stand tall in their accomplishments. Certain parties especially, ones that are found at the root of the numerous dustups over the last two years or so..
I can only assume you know me, and vice versa, yet Im the one putting my name up instead of hiding behind generic pseudonyms. If you know me, you know I have no problem giving chapter and verse and naming each and every person who pulled some of the most despicable stunts against the CA and obviously carried a similar grudge against PF.
I would enjoy thrashing out this pathetic history of locals who had nothing better to do than attack "fellow" progressives and people who try to do the right thing. In fact, I'll make a point of it someday. I hope I dont mispell your name, because I probably have something to say about you as well? Judging by your lame characterizations and straw constructions, its pretty safe to guess where you stand. Everyones got issues. Some people are FLAT OUT NUTS.
They shouldnt be allowed to do nothing but piss in our sandbox without pointing out their mistakes. Normally, mental illness is cause for sympathy, but when it causes innocent, decent people to suffer unnecessary grief, it has to be dealt with.
I can only assume you know me, and vice versa, yet Im the one putting my name up instead of hiding behind generic pseudonyms. If you know me, you know I have no problem giving chapter and verse and naming each and every person who pulled some of the most despicable stunts against the CA and obviously carried a similar grudge against PF.
I would enjoy thrashing out this pathetic history of locals who had nothing better to do than attack "fellow" progressives and people who try to do the right thing. In fact, I'll make a point of it someday. I hope I dont mispell your name, because I probably have something to say about you as well? Judging by your lame characterizations and straw constructions, its pretty safe to guess where you stand. Everyones got issues. Some people are FLAT OUT NUTS.
They shouldnt be allowed to do nothing but piss in our sandbox without pointing out their mistakes. Normally, mental illness is cause for sympathy, but when it causes innocent, decent people to suffer unnecessary grief, it has to be dealt with.
What childish antics these few folks are about. You want criticism?
I will serve it up, dont worry. No matter how important it is for some people to try to hide their identities, and no matter how discrediting that is, some people just wont drop a misplaced grudge. Nor are they fooling anyone. The holy left. What straws. You three, and the nutballs that were serving your purpose are ripe for plucking. Once the reality of certain peoples backgrounds gets out, a number of folks are gonna feel like absolute horses asses, but whats the difference, their principles drove them from organizations and alliances that will continue without their presence or scheming interference.
You will find yourselves hard pressed to find anyone dumb enough to listen to your "criticisms"
when Im done with you. Bank on it.
I will serve it up, dont worry. No matter how important it is for some people to try to hide their identities, and no matter how discrediting that is, some people just wont drop a misplaced grudge. Nor are they fooling anyone. The holy left. What straws. You three, and the nutballs that were serving your purpose are ripe for plucking. Once the reality of certain peoples backgrounds gets out, a number of folks are gonna feel like absolute horses asses, but whats the difference, their principles drove them from organizations and alliances that will continue without their presence or scheming interference.
You will find yourselves hard pressed to find anyone dumb enough to listen to your "criticisms"
when Im done with you. Bank on it.
Wow Kelly. What’s up with all the anger? I simply criticize the political intelligence of liberals giving $1500 to offset the costs associated with a Conservative conference and I’m being called crazy. Let’s see, here’s a list of all the speakers in addition to the Hanson – Parenti debate:
Michael Reagan Talk Radio Host, Steve Brandau The Central Valley Tea Party William Owens Jr Tea Party Express , Jim Franklin Pastor/Radio Talk Show Host Cornerstone Church/KMJ580, Tom Campbell candidate U.S. Senate, Damon Dunn Candidate for California Secretary of State Congressman Devin Nunes, Inga Barks, Luke Wake (Pacific Legal Foundation), Ray Appleton (KMJ580), Carly Fiorina For U.S. Senator, Cliff Unruh, Ron Nehring (Chairman CA GOP), Chuck Devore (U.S.Senate Candidate), Mike Der Manouel (Fresno Lincoln Club), John Eastman (CA. AG Candidate), and a video presentation by Steve Poizner candidate for Ca. Governor.
Everyone of the speakers are conservative republicans. And according to some folks within the Fresno liberal/progressive communities it perfectly ok to raise $1500 to give to these people. And I’m the crazy one here.
Michael Reagan Talk Radio Host, Steve Brandau The Central Valley Tea Party William Owens Jr Tea Party Express , Jim Franklin Pastor/Radio Talk Show Host Cornerstone Church/KMJ580, Tom Campbell candidate U.S. Senate, Damon Dunn Candidate for California Secretary of State Congressman Devin Nunes, Inga Barks, Luke Wake (Pacific Legal Foundation), Ray Appleton (KMJ580), Carly Fiorina For U.S. Senator, Cliff Unruh, Ron Nehring (Chairman CA GOP), Chuck Devore (U.S.Senate Candidate), Mike Der Manouel (Fresno Lincoln Club), John Eastman (CA. AG Candidate), and a video presentation by Steve Poizner candidate for Ca. Governor.
Everyone of the speakers are conservative republicans. And according to some folks within the Fresno liberal/progressive communities it perfectly ok to raise $1500 to give to these people. And I’m the crazy one here.
If you mean my comments, as opposed to all the other people who might have called you crazy, Im not talking about you.
You could be sane for all I know. Although I see no sane reason to criticize people who want to see Parenti opposing the local vermin.
Nor do I see any reason for people too cowardly to publish their own names (known as they are by those familiar with this small potatoes soap opera, and anyone with access to IP info as well) to expect to attack and defame without repercussion. No, Im talking about truly crazy people, or person, who would take issue with anything Mike, Camille or Dan would do and instigate ENDLESS problems. Anyone familiar with these folks (Mike, Dan and Camille) knows that even though they have their own way of doing their own things, they are absolutely honorable and well intentioned. At least they arent stupid or malicious enough to target progressives in their own town. Its not like their arent politicians or officials worthy of peoples attention and enmity. If someone prefers to go after some of the most effective and decent people we have on "our side" as I would define it, than I would have to question their true intentions.
Having some insight into certain peoples personal history, I feel safe tossing around un-PC terms like crazy.
Now, since the hyenas feel they can demean and defame Mike or anyone else, semi-anonymously they should realize glass houses shatter quickly.
And Im happy to do it.
It wont happen here in front of the few people who bother to look either...
You could be sane for all I know. Although I see no sane reason to criticize people who want to see Parenti opposing the local vermin.
Nor do I see any reason for people too cowardly to publish their own names (known as they are by those familiar with this small potatoes soap opera, and anyone with access to IP info as well) to expect to attack and defame without repercussion. No, Im talking about truly crazy people, or person, who would take issue with anything Mike, Camille or Dan would do and instigate ENDLESS problems. Anyone familiar with these folks (Mike, Dan and Camille) knows that even though they have their own way of doing their own things, they are absolutely honorable and well intentioned. At least they arent stupid or malicious enough to target progressives in their own town. Its not like their arent politicians or officials worthy of peoples attention and enmity. If someone prefers to go after some of the most effective and decent people we have on "our side" as I would define it, than I would have to question their true intentions.
Having some insight into certain peoples personal history, I feel safe tossing around un-PC terms like crazy.
Now, since the hyenas feel they can demean and defame Mike or anyone else, semi-anonymously they should realize glass houses shatter quickly.
And Im happy to do it.
It wont happen here in front of the few people who bother to look either...
mission abort kelly. the CIA has realized that these folks aren't as great a threat as we once thought so we're aborting the mission. return to base immediately.
I am one of the three Peace Fresno board members who resigned. I take issue with the reason the author of the original post gives for our resignation.
As happenened regularly under the current Peace Fresno administration, we were misled. This time it was about the Sunbird Conference. It was not the first time. We have no confidence in our senior officers, and we voted so by resigning.
The issue of the Sunbird Conference was only one of a number of documented deceptions, abuses and manipulations of the board and the voting membership.
Catherine Campbell was fully apprised of the situation, but preferred to whitewash it in favour of supporting the position of the Community Alliance, which I note has buttered her up considerably in the current issue. She has also won a vote of "no confidence" from the contingent of folks who are being blackballed and badjacketed for whistleblowing in this community.
Regarding claims that Peace Fresno did well by distancing themselves from the Bill Ayers event:
What a load.
Peace Fresno voted to sponsor the Bill Ayers event to the tune of up to $200. Our group, ciafront.com CANNED THEM and refunded their money. They wanted to take our name off all the promotions because we spoke up about Mike Rhodes blacklisting our ad copy clients from the Community Alliance because we objected to being misled about the Sunbird Conference.
Please note, I have signed my actual name to this statement as it is the truth and I stand by it.
As happenened regularly under the current Peace Fresno administration, we were misled. This time it was about the Sunbird Conference. It was not the first time. We have no confidence in our senior officers, and we voted so by resigning.
The issue of the Sunbird Conference was only one of a number of documented deceptions, abuses and manipulations of the board and the voting membership.
Catherine Campbell was fully apprised of the situation, but preferred to whitewash it in favour of supporting the position of the Community Alliance, which I note has buttered her up considerably in the current issue. She has also won a vote of "no confidence" from the contingent of folks who are being blackballed and badjacketed for whistleblowing in this community.
Regarding claims that Peace Fresno did well by distancing themselves from the Bill Ayers event:
What a load.
Peace Fresno voted to sponsor the Bill Ayers event to the tune of up to $200. Our group, ciafront.com CANNED THEM and refunded their money. They wanted to take our name off all the promotions because we spoke up about Mike Rhodes blacklisting our ad copy clients from the Community Alliance because we objected to being misled about the Sunbird Conference.
Please note, I have signed my actual name to this statement as it is the truth and I stand by it.
For more information:
http://www.ciafront.com
I find all this railing about the Sunbird conference absolutely hysterical! Guess what, every time progressives support an event out at Fresno State backed by Associated Students, or when progressives pay their ASI fees as students, they are supporting campus conservatives (as well as campus liberals) to the tune of $1,000 a semester / conservative group. Campus Watch is, as at Fresno Pacific, alive and (un)well in Bulldogland.
Someone claimed the Memmonite Church is "liberal" and that's why Campus Watch is targeting professors there. From the perspective of the LGBT community, that is SO far from the truth.
1) You can not be anything other than heterosexual and be a student at Fresno Pacific.
2) If you are LGBT and the school finds out, you are immediately evicted from campus housing and...
3) Brought before the campus Star Chamber for violating church law. current and former students who are LGBT report either being expelled or being forced into "reparative therapy."
4) Fresno Pacific will not sponsor certain sports teams (e.g. softball) because they don't want those "lesbians" soiling its campus.
I realize that certain faculty, especially those connected to the conflict resolution program, are popular in the progressive community. But Fresno Pacific as a whole is terribly tainted, just not the Sunbird Conservatives.
1) You can not be anything other than heterosexual and be a student at Fresno Pacific.
2) If you are LGBT and the school finds out, you are immediately evicted from campus housing and...
3) Brought before the campus Star Chamber for violating church law. current and former students who are LGBT report either being expelled or being forced into "reparative therapy."
4) Fresno Pacific will not sponsor certain sports teams (e.g. softball) because they don't want those "lesbians" soiling its campus.
I realize that certain faculty, especially those connected to the conflict resolution program, are popular in the progressive community. But Fresno Pacific as a whole is terribly tainted, just not the Sunbird Conservatives.
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