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Scientology: Gays and Lesbians should be quarantined and institutionalized
As cities around the world prepare for their annual Pride celebrations, it is worth considering the "Church" of Scientology's official position on gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered and queer people (LGBTQ). According to Scientology, such "perverts" should either be quarantined and institutionalized, or go through extensive Scientology "processing" until once again they have value as human beings.
In the Scientology cult's most sacred text, "Dianetics," written in the early 1950s, a modern reader is somewhat startled to find this passage:
"The sexual pervert (and by this term Dianetics, to be brief, includes any and all forms of deviation in dynamic two [sexuality and procreation] such as homosexuality, lesbianism, sexual sadism, etc., and all down the catalog of Ellis and Krafft-Ebing) is actually quite ill physically." (L. Ron Hubbard, "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health")
The cult's founder, science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard, felt LGBTQ people were malicious, untrustworthy and incredibly dangerous to society. In his follow-up book, "Science of Survival," he establishes a "tone scale," ranging from -3 to +4, for classifying categories of people and evaluating human behavior. "Perverts," as he classified LGBTQ people, fall at 1.1 on Hubbard's scale. He considered them to be extremely dangerous to society.
"At 1.1 on the tone scale we enter the area of the most vicious reversal of the second dynamic. Here we have promiscuity, perversion, sadism, and irregular practices…. People on this level on the second dynamic are intensely dangerous in the society, since aberration is contagious. A society which reaches this level is on its way out of history, as went the Greeks, as went the Romans, as goes modern European and American culture. Here is a flaming danger signal which must be heeded if a race is to go forward…. The person may claim to love others and to have the good of others as his foremost interest; yet, at the same moment, he works, unconsciously or otherwise, to injure or destroy the lives and reputations of people and also to destroy property… No social order which desires to survive dates overlook its stratum 1.1's. No social order will survive which does not remove these people from its midst…. Such people should be taken from the society as rapidly as possible and uniformly institutionalized; for here is the level of the contagion of immorality, and the destruction of ethics." (L. Ron Hubbard, "Science of Survival")
The only solution Hubbard envisions to this horrifying threat is essentially converting them back to "normalcy."
"The only answers would seem to be the permanent quarantine of such persons from society to avoid the contagion of their insanities and the general turbulence which they bring to any order, thus forcing it lower on the scale, or processing such persons until they have attained a level on the tone scale which gives them value."
When Scientologists of today are questioned about these passages of what are considered to be Hubbard's two most "important" books (as well as similar passages highly unfavorable to people of African heritage), the response is invariably that Hubbard was a man of his times; in mainstream white American society of the 1950s such views might have been considered acceptable, if not commonly held. But this answer is just an evasion, in view of Scientology's belief in Hubbard's absolute infallibility – the cult views very harshly any attempt to suggest that Hubbard was not perfectly correct in everything he ever said or did. It is simply not permitted to change even one word of Hubbard's writings, and indeed, the two books cited above have kept these insane and homophobic passages, through all the subsequently printed editions.
Scientology is much more than just a weird and wacky Hollywood fad, in which celebrities make fools of themselves and provide material for gossip magazines. Beyond its status as a "religion" in the USA, which it obtained through a secret deal with the Internal Revenue Service, and which give it extraordinary benefits not permitted to any other group, Scientology is also a multinational criminal racket. The average person would be shocked to learn the amount of influence Scientology wields, mostly due to blackmailing and intimidation of government officials. Scientology's primary goals are to "clear the planet" (of people like those at "tone 1.1") and to "obliterate" the mental health profession, replacing it with Scientology. They are prepared to do this by any means necessary, and are adept in using their many front groups to portray the cult as concerned humanitarians. The opposite is true. Indeed, according to L. Ron Hubbard, critics of Scientology are to be considered "fair game," and "[m]ay be deprived of property or injured by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the Scientologist. May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed." (L. Ron Hubbard, "HCOPL 18 October 67 Issue IV, Penalties for Lower Conditions").
Thousands of people around the world are currently engaged in activism to make Scientology accountable for its human rights abuses, fraud, and many other forms of criminality. To join them, please visit http://www.xenu.net, http://www.youfoundthecard.com, and http://www.enturbulation.org.
"The sexual pervert (and by this term Dianetics, to be brief, includes any and all forms of deviation in dynamic two [sexuality and procreation] such as homosexuality, lesbianism, sexual sadism, etc., and all down the catalog of Ellis and Krafft-Ebing) is actually quite ill physically." (L. Ron Hubbard, "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health")
The cult's founder, science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard, felt LGBTQ people were malicious, untrustworthy and incredibly dangerous to society. In his follow-up book, "Science of Survival," he establishes a "tone scale," ranging from -3 to +4, for classifying categories of people and evaluating human behavior. "Perverts," as he classified LGBTQ people, fall at 1.1 on Hubbard's scale. He considered them to be extremely dangerous to society.
"At 1.1 on the tone scale we enter the area of the most vicious reversal of the second dynamic. Here we have promiscuity, perversion, sadism, and irregular practices…. People on this level on the second dynamic are intensely dangerous in the society, since aberration is contagious. A society which reaches this level is on its way out of history, as went the Greeks, as went the Romans, as goes modern European and American culture. Here is a flaming danger signal which must be heeded if a race is to go forward…. The person may claim to love others and to have the good of others as his foremost interest; yet, at the same moment, he works, unconsciously or otherwise, to injure or destroy the lives and reputations of people and also to destroy property… No social order which desires to survive dates overlook its stratum 1.1's. No social order will survive which does not remove these people from its midst…. Such people should be taken from the society as rapidly as possible and uniformly institutionalized; for here is the level of the contagion of immorality, and the destruction of ethics." (L. Ron Hubbard, "Science of Survival")
The only solution Hubbard envisions to this horrifying threat is essentially converting them back to "normalcy."
"The only answers would seem to be the permanent quarantine of such persons from society to avoid the contagion of their insanities and the general turbulence which they bring to any order, thus forcing it lower on the scale, or processing such persons until they have attained a level on the tone scale which gives them value."
When Scientologists of today are questioned about these passages of what are considered to be Hubbard's two most "important" books (as well as similar passages highly unfavorable to people of African heritage), the response is invariably that Hubbard was a man of his times; in mainstream white American society of the 1950s such views might have been considered acceptable, if not commonly held. But this answer is just an evasion, in view of Scientology's belief in Hubbard's absolute infallibility – the cult views very harshly any attempt to suggest that Hubbard was not perfectly correct in everything he ever said or did. It is simply not permitted to change even one word of Hubbard's writings, and indeed, the two books cited above have kept these insane and homophobic passages, through all the subsequently printed editions.
Scientology is much more than just a weird and wacky Hollywood fad, in which celebrities make fools of themselves and provide material for gossip magazines. Beyond its status as a "religion" in the USA, which it obtained through a secret deal with the Internal Revenue Service, and which give it extraordinary benefits not permitted to any other group, Scientology is also a multinational criminal racket. The average person would be shocked to learn the amount of influence Scientology wields, mostly due to blackmailing and intimidation of government officials. Scientology's primary goals are to "clear the planet" (of people like those at "tone 1.1") and to "obliterate" the mental health profession, replacing it with Scientology. They are prepared to do this by any means necessary, and are adept in using their many front groups to portray the cult as concerned humanitarians. The opposite is true. Indeed, according to L. Ron Hubbard, critics of Scientology are to be considered "fair game," and "[m]ay be deprived of property or injured by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the Scientologist. May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed." (L. Ron Hubbard, "HCOPL 18 October 67 Issue IV, Penalties for Lower Conditions").
Thousands of people around the world are currently engaged in activism to make Scientology accountable for its human rights abuses, fraud, and many other forms of criminality. To join them, please visit http://www.xenu.net, http://www.youfoundthecard.com, and http://www.enturbulation.org.
For more information:
http://www.enturbulation.org
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It is time the world knows exactly what the CULT of Scientology is really about. Seen as the "religion" to the celebrities, it has a very dark side. Termination of the Gay Community is one horrific instance of this insidious CULT. Abuse, child labor, forced abortions, blackmail and murder are just a few they would love to keep hidden from the public. It is time the citizens of the United States ban together to disseminate this horrendous so called religion. A money making pyramid scheme preying on the weak minded using hypnosis techniques has been going on now for too long. Their secet deal with the IRS giving them tax exemption needs to be open for public view and challenged. They were convicted of the largest infiltration into the US government in history with many jailed including L Ron Hubbard's wife, with Hubbard going into hiding, cowering until his death. A schitzophrenic science fiction writer who to this day is "worshipped" by many including celebrities is saluted with a "hip-hip horray" at the end of every large conference headed by current leader David Miscavige. He is known as the most physically abusive church leader by many ex-Scientologists who have literally escaped his wrath. Please join the group Anonymous along with many ex-Scientologists and actor Jason Beghe in our monthly protests. July 19th is planned for Washington DC, maybe then the press and government will "wake up" and begin peeling back the layers of deceit that have been thriving off the money of it's victoms for the last 40 years. Celebrities who affiliate themselves with this CULT should be ashamed. The truth is out there, apparently they choose to look the other way. All men and women are created equal, but not in the eyes of L Ron Hubbard! FOR THE TRUTH ABOUT SCIENTOLOGY VISIT XENU.NET and XENUTV.COM
Haven't LGBTI folks enough experience in being mis-defined and discriminated? I hope some of you note how this article tries to recruit you into a harassing and hate-motivated movement against the members of the Church of Scientology. By use of slander and outright lies. By distortion of facts and ridiculous spins. The truth is that homosexuality or any body-related subjects do not have very much importance in the Church of Scientology. Scientology is about the spirit, the personality running a body. And Scientology is about equal rights for everyone. This is part of our Code and what we believe. I can't say that there are no Scientologists with prejudice against gays, I am actually sure there are some. But those prejudices have not been created in Scientology, they might have come from their parents when they were small or from their conservative neighborhood. My dad, a devout catholic, was "against gays" and never could explain to me why. People have all kinds of strange ideas. But minimal research in actual Scientology material would have shown that there is no "clash" between LGBTI and Scientologists.
Since about two weeks this author - "Dr." Lilly von Marcab does nothing else - absolutely nothing else - than creating spin articles against Scientologists with the obvious purpose to stir up hate and aggression against members of this church. I don't know what motivation she has. Maybe a little extra money? I don't know why she hides behind a pseudonym ("Marcab" is a rare term found in Scientology). Maybe fear for retribution for discriminatory and slanderous actions?
But I am sure she can explain in her next propaganda piece.
Since about two weeks this author - "Dr." Lilly von Marcab does nothing else - absolutely nothing else - than creating spin articles against Scientologists with the obvious purpose to stir up hate and aggression against members of this church. I don't know what motivation she has. Maybe a little extra money? I don't know why she hides behind a pseudonym ("Marcab" is a rare term found in Scientology). Maybe fear for retribution for discriminatory and slanderous actions?
But I am sure she can explain in her next propaganda piece.
For more information:
http://www.scientologymyths.info/homosexua...
Nice piece of intolerance and hate-mongering, plus a little bit of link spamming. So I guess "Lilly" is your second name?
Lou AKA Lou-Ann AKA Luana runs 4 or 5 sites dedicated to making Scientology seem like an ordinary, pleasant religion, which it is not. Lou, are you saying that "Dianetics" and "Science of Survival" are not "actual Scientology material"? They are two of Scientology's key texts! You'd best stop trying to defend the indefensible, because it doesn't work, and just makes you look dumb. Flunk!
By the way, you mention that "Marcab" is a rare term in Scientology. I'll quote from L. Ron Hubbard:
" This planet is part of a larger federation — was part of an earlier federation and passed out of its control due to losses in war and other such things. Now, this larger confederacy — this isn't its right name, but we have often called it and referred to it in the past as the Marcab Confederacy. And it has been wrongly or rightly pointed to as one of the tail stars of the Big Dipper, which is the capital planet of which this planet is. "
" … In the last ten thousand years, they have gone on with a sort of a decadent, kicked-in-the-head civilization that contains automobiles, business suits, fedora hats, telephones, spaceships — quite interesting, but a civilization which looks an almost exact duplicate, but is worse off than the current U.S. civilization. "
It was about nineteen thousand years ago, twenty thousand, thirty thousand, forty thousand, In the Marcab Confederacy they had a race-track. And you were probably there. And you either have attended its races or had something to do with it, because you find it on most cases … "
" They had turbine-generated cars that went about 275 miles an hour. They ran with a high whine. I notice they've just now invented the motor again. And they had tracks that were booby-trapped with atom bombs, and they had side bypasses. The tracks were mined, and the grandstands were leaded-paned. And the audience — it got to be kind of a 'no audience.' You never could see the audience.
And oh, they had loose-sand sections and they had slick-oil asphalt and they had ice sections and loose gravel. Any kind of hazards you could think of. A mountain that you went up to the top of and fell off; you know?
And just — there were just more drivers killed. There was more blood pouring on that track, you see, all the time. I mean it was always goofed up. Ten, twelve thousand years, this was the favorite sport of the Marcab Confederacy, apparently..."
" You've probably often wondered what that needle-like pinging was in the back of your neck. Well, you probably wound up on the track some time or another as a driver or something of the sort..."
" The Marcab Confederacy's medicine was so excellent that an individual just couldn't die out of it. That was all. They would drag you back and fit an arm on, fit a leg on, fit a nose on, fit an eye in. They could give you artificial voices and artificial vision and artificial digestion and artificial everything else. The next thing you know, there wasn't even an original part left including you, you see? "
" If a person was considered to be in contempt of court or anything like that, he was simply fried since there was a curtain of radioactive material which went clear across the front of the bench anywhere that a witness or anybody would stand, and so on."
" They invented income tax as a means of punishment, with the death penalty imposed for making even the slightest mistake in returns — one comma wrong and it's 'dead forever.' "
Lou, this Marcabian stuff in Scientology is some of the funniest shit I've ever read! Why didn't "LRH" stick with science fiction? He was pretty good at it. The craziest part of all is that David Miscavige believes "Anonymous" is being funded by the Psychiatrists of the Marcab Confederacy, who are in charge of Germany, with the German Secret Service as intermediaries. Good stuff.
Lou, you'd best get out while the getting is good. Scientology Inc. is going to come crashing down all around you and you are going to learn that all the bad things about Scientology that you scoff at are true.
For more information:
http://www.xenu.net
Lou, you can't pull the wool over people's eyes. The opening quotes of that article are Hubbard's own words. Anyone going back to source will be able to verify them. If you're trying to claim that Scientology has moved on since the 1950s and no longer has these offensive beliefs, then great!
Show us some evidence that LGBTs are in, are still LGBT, and are happy.
Show us some evidence that LGBTs are in, are still LGBT, and are happy.
L. RON HUBBARD ON HOMOSEXUALITY
http://thingy.apana.org.au/~fun/scn/demo/leaflets/antigay.txt
The purpose of this leaflet is to warn gays, lesbians,
bisexuals, pansexuals, and other "perverts," as well as
all people who care about gay rights, of the danger posed by the
Church of Scientology. As demonstrated below, the Church of
Scientology has determined that gays pose a grave danger to
society. The Church has a solution. Gays can either be
quarantined and institutionalized, or undergo Church
"processing."
The Church of Scientology has officially determined that
gays are perverts. In _Dianetics, The Modern Science of Mental
Health_, L. Ron Hubbard, the Founder of the Church of
Scientology, wrote:
"The sexual pervert (and by this term
Dianetics, to be brief, includes any and all
forms of deviation in dynamic two such as
homosexuality, lesbianism, sexual sadism,
etc., and all down the catalog of Ellis and
Krafft-Ebing) is actually quite ill
physically."
L. Ron Hubbard, _Dianetics, The Modern Science of Mental Health_,
Book Two, Chapt. 5, at p. 120 ((c) 1989 L. Ron Hubbard Library)
(footnotes omitted).
For future reference, in the world of L. Ron Hubbard and the
Church of Scientology: "Dynamic two is the urge of the
individual toward ultimate survival via the sex act, the creation
of and the rearing of children." See _Dianetics_, Book 1, Chapt.
4, at p. 43. "This dynamic would normally be called sex." See
L. Ron Hubbard, _Science of Survival, Prediction of Human
Behavior_, Book One, Chapt. 18, at p. 114 ((c) 1951
L. Ron Hubbard).
L. Ron Hubbard and the Church of Scientology have also
determined all of the behavioral characteristics (beyond mere
sexual preference) of "perverts" such as homosexuals. In Science
of Survival, Hubbard established a "tone scale" for classifying
individuals and evaluating human behavior. See generally
_Science of Survival_, Book One, Chapt. 1. The tone scale ranges
from -3 at the bottom (death), to +4 at the top. See id.
"Perverts," such as homosexuals, fall at 1.1 on the tone scale:
"At 1.1 on the tone scale we enter the
area of the most vicious reversal of the
second dynamic. Here we have promiscuity,
perversion, sadism, and irregular
practices."
_Science of Survival_, Book One, Chapt. 18, at 116.
According to the Church of Scientology, gays and other
"perverts" are dangerous in the extreme:
"People on this level on the second
dynamic are intensely dangerous in the
society, since aberration is contagious. A
society which reaches this level is on its
way out of history, as went the Greeks, as
went the Romans, as goes modern European and
American culture. Here is a flaming danger
signal which must be heeded if a race is to
go forward."
_Science of Survival_
Scientology, and its Founder, L. Ron Hubbard, teach that one
should not, and indeed cannot, trust a 1.1" gay "pervert." This
is because: "Around 1.1, we reach the level of covert
hostility." See _Science of Survival_, Book One, Chapt. 8, at
56. To be more precise:
"The person may claim to love others and to
have the good of others as his foremost
interest; yet, at the same moment, he works,
unconsciously or otherwise, to injure or
destroy the lives and reputations of people
and also to destroy property."
_Science of Survival_ Hubbard further explains:
"At 1.1, we have lying, to avoid real
communication. * * * Here is the level of
covert hostility, the most dangerous and
wicked level on the tone scale. Here is the
person who smiles while he inserts a knife
blade between your vertebrae. * * * Here
is the insincere flatterer who yet awaits
only a moment of unguardedness to destroy.
* * * This is the level of the pervert
. . . ."
_Science of Survival_, Book 1, Chapt. 13, at 88-89. Such a
person "has only two purposes: to wreak the most harm upon
others, and secure the greatest safety for self." See _Science
of Survival_, Book 1, Chapt. 22, at 136.
It appears that for Hubbard, the danger posed by "1.1" gay
"perverts" cannot be underestimated. Indeed:
"From 1.3 down to 0.6 we have the
general area of the subversive, who promises
a people freedom and equality and gives them
a slaughter of their best minds and cultural
institutions, to the end of a totalitarian
dominance."
_Science of Survival_, Book 1, Chapt. 27, at 163.
According to Hubbard and the Church of Scientology, given
this danger posed by homosexual "1.1" "perverts," society is
faced with only one choice:
"No social order which desires to
survive dates overlook its stratum 1.1's.
No social order will survive which does not
remove these people from its midst."
_Science of Survival_, Book 1, Chapt. 13, at 90. To Hubbard and
the Church of Scientology, the obvious solution is a simple one:
"Such people should be taken from the
society as rapidly as possible and uniformly
institutionalized; for here is the level of
the contagion of immorality, and the
destruction of ethics;"
_Science of Survival_, Book 1, Chapt. 13, at 89.
On the other hand, the Church of Scientology offers an
alternative:
"The only answers would seem to be the
permanent quarantine of such persons from
society to avoid the contagion of their
insanities and the general turbulence which
they bring to any order, thus forcing it
lower on the scale, or processing such
persons until they have attained a level on
the tone scale which gives them value."
_Science of Survival_, Book 1, Chapt. 21, at 131. Thus, the
Church offers gays a choice. Gays can avoid being quarantined
or institutionalized by simply undergoing Church "processing" to
raise their tone level so that they are no longer gay "perverts,"
but instead have "value."
Finally, while the Hubbard and the Church of Scientology
have determined that gays are dangerous in the extreme, they have
also concluded that gay problem is easily dealt with. This is
because with gays:
"At 1.1, we have reached fear, on the
tone scale, and when the individual rises
above fear we have underhanded displays of
action. If the individual is suddenly
addressed by danger, however, we have
cowardice."
_Science of Survival_, Book 1, Chapt. 23, at 141.
NOTE RE: CURRENT PERTINENCE OF PRIMARY SOURCES:
Although _Dianetics, The Modern Science of Mental Health_
was first published in 1950, and _Science of Survival, Prediction
of Human Behavior_ was first published in 1951, both books are
currently sold and taught at Scientology Churches worldwide.
THIS IS WHY!!!!!!
http://thingy.apana.org.au/~fun/scn/demo/leaflets/antigay.txt
The purpose of this leaflet is to warn gays, lesbians,
bisexuals, pansexuals, and other "perverts," as well as
all people who care about gay rights, of the danger posed by the
Church of Scientology. As demonstrated below, the Church of
Scientology has determined that gays pose a grave danger to
society. The Church has a solution. Gays can either be
quarantined and institutionalized, or undergo Church
"processing."
The Church of Scientology has officially determined that
gays are perverts. In _Dianetics, The Modern Science of Mental
Health_, L. Ron Hubbard, the Founder of the Church of
Scientology, wrote:
"The sexual pervert (and by this term
Dianetics, to be brief, includes any and all
forms of deviation in dynamic two such as
homosexuality, lesbianism, sexual sadism,
etc., and all down the catalog of Ellis and
Krafft-Ebing) is actually quite ill
physically."
L. Ron Hubbard, _Dianetics, The Modern Science of Mental Health_,
Book Two, Chapt. 5, at p. 120 ((c) 1989 L. Ron Hubbard Library)
(footnotes omitted).
For future reference, in the world of L. Ron Hubbard and the
Church of Scientology: "Dynamic two is the urge of the
individual toward ultimate survival via the sex act, the creation
of and the rearing of children." See _Dianetics_, Book 1, Chapt.
4, at p. 43. "This dynamic would normally be called sex." See
L. Ron Hubbard, _Science of Survival, Prediction of Human
Behavior_, Book One, Chapt. 18, at p. 114 ((c) 1951
L. Ron Hubbard).
L. Ron Hubbard and the Church of Scientology have also
determined all of the behavioral characteristics (beyond mere
sexual preference) of "perverts" such as homosexuals. In Science
of Survival, Hubbard established a "tone scale" for classifying
individuals and evaluating human behavior. See generally
_Science of Survival_, Book One, Chapt. 1. The tone scale ranges
from -3 at the bottom (death), to +4 at the top. See id.
"Perverts," such as homosexuals, fall at 1.1 on the tone scale:
"At 1.1 on the tone scale we enter the
area of the most vicious reversal of the
second dynamic. Here we have promiscuity,
perversion, sadism, and irregular
practices."
_Science of Survival_, Book One, Chapt. 18, at 116.
According to the Church of Scientology, gays and other
"perverts" are dangerous in the extreme:
"People on this level on the second
dynamic are intensely dangerous in the
society, since aberration is contagious. A
society which reaches this level is on its
way out of history, as went the Greeks, as
went the Romans, as goes modern European and
American culture. Here is a flaming danger
signal which must be heeded if a race is to
go forward."
_Science of Survival_
Scientology, and its Founder, L. Ron Hubbard, teach that one
should not, and indeed cannot, trust a 1.1" gay "pervert." This
is because: "Around 1.1, we reach the level of covert
hostility." See _Science of Survival_, Book One, Chapt. 8, at
56. To be more precise:
"The person may claim to love others and to
have the good of others as his foremost
interest; yet, at the same moment, he works,
unconsciously or otherwise, to injure or
destroy the lives and reputations of people
and also to destroy property."
_Science of Survival_ Hubbard further explains:
"At 1.1, we have lying, to avoid real
communication. * * * Here is the level of
covert hostility, the most dangerous and
wicked level on the tone scale. Here is the
person who smiles while he inserts a knife
blade between your vertebrae. * * * Here
is the insincere flatterer who yet awaits
only a moment of unguardedness to destroy.
* * * This is the level of the pervert
. . . ."
_Science of Survival_, Book 1, Chapt. 13, at 88-89. Such a
person "has only two purposes: to wreak the most harm upon
others, and secure the greatest safety for self." See _Science
of Survival_, Book 1, Chapt. 22, at 136.
It appears that for Hubbard, the danger posed by "1.1" gay
"perverts" cannot be underestimated. Indeed:
"From 1.3 down to 0.6 we have the
general area of the subversive, who promises
a people freedom and equality and gives them
a slaughter of their best minds and cultural
institutions, to the end of a totalitarian
dominance."
_Science of Survival_, Book 1, Chapt. 27, at 163.
According to Hubbard and the Church of Scientology, given
this danger posed by homosexual "1.1" "perverts," society is
faced with only one choice:
"No social order which desires to
survive dates overlook its stratum 1.1's.
No social order will survive which does not
remove these people from its midst."
_Science of Survival_, Book 1, Chapt. 13, at 90. To Hubbard and
the Church of Scientology, the obvious solution is a simple one:
"Such people should be taken from the
society as rapidly as possible and uniformly
institutionalized; for here is the level of
the contagion of immorality, and the
destruction of ethics;"
_Science of Survival_, Book 1, Chapt. 13, at 89.
On the other hand, the Church of Scientology offers an
alternative:
"The only answers would seem to be the
permanent quarantine of such persons from
society to avoid the contagion of their
insanities and the general turbulence which
they bring to any order, thus forcing it
lower on the scale, or processing such
persons until they have attained a level on
the tone scale which gives them value."
_Science of Survival_, Book 1, Chapt. 21, at 131. Thus, the
Church offers gays a choice. Gays can avoid being quarantined
or institutionalized by simply undergoing Church "processing" to
raise their tone level so that they are no longer gay "perverts,"
but instead have "value."
Finally, while the Hubbard and the Church of Scientology
have determined that gays are dangerous in the extreme, they have
also concluded that gay problem is easily dealt with. This is
because with gays:
"At 1.1, we have reached fear, on the
tone scale, and when the individual rises
above fear we have underhanded displays of
action. If the individual is suddenly
addressed by danger, however, we have
cowardice."
_Science of Survival_, Book 1, Chapt. 23, at 141.
NOTE RE: CURRENT PERTINENCE OF PRIMARY SOURCES:
Although _Dianetics, The Modern Science of Mental Health_
was first published in 1950, and _Science of Survival, Prediction
of Human Behavior_ was first published in 1951, both books are
currently sold and taught at Scientology Churches worldwide.
THIS IS WHY!!!!!!
Dr. Lilly von Marcab,
This is an Excellent item, Thanks!
This is an Excellent item, Thanks!
I am not surprised about these personal and disgusting attacks you guys have in stock for me here. All I can say is that you should look in real life and not your dirty dreams - or those of others - when it comes to what Scientology is and what Scientologists do. Sorry if that messes up your prejudices but how about sticking to the truth here?!
I stumbled across this site while looking for some information on scientology. I walked by a big group of people wearing masks last weekend but didn't get too close. Their signs said that they were protesting scientology. I decided to look into what they were doing by first googling simply "scientology"...when I saw that the official website was the first thing that came up (boring!), I clicked "News" and this article was the first thing I saw. I have read through all of what "Dr. Lilly con Marcab" has posted and the ensuing comments. I checked some of the "doctor"'s facts and have come to the conclusion that what she has said is indeed the truth. The commenter Lou, by contrast, seems to regurgitate the same lame "hate! bigotry!" line without actually addressing the issues named in this piece. When confronted with actual quotes from the founder of scientology*, she ignores them and complains of personal attacks.
I gather from her words that her idea of "personal attacks" is any comment that puts scientology in a negative light, even if those comments are meant to educate or otherwise enlighten.
Anonymous, this movement, is fascinating. That a person can decide to stand up against an injustice and have thousands of other individuals stand with him/her, connected only by a common goal, is fascinating. No names, no degrees, no special designations; just people who want to see scientology stop its bigotry and abusive nature for once and for all.
To Lou, the scientologist... I am new to all of this, but all it took was a little research. When you've got blinders on, all you can see is what is placed in front of you. When you take them off, your perspective changes. Take off the blinders, Lou. You have the right to see everything.
* According to scientology websites and other information I've seen, scientologists take everything written by L. Ron Hubbard as TRUTH. Everything he wrote (barring the science-fiction, I think), everything he said in lectures, is considered "source" and should be obeyed unquestioningly. Weird that Lou wouldn't believe direct quotes from Hubbard himself....
I gather from her words that her idea of "personal attacks" is any comment that puts scientology in a negative light, even if those comments are meant to educate or otherwise enlighten.
Anonymous, this movement, is fascinating. That a person can decide to stand up against an injustice and have thousands of other individuals stand with him/her, connected only by a common goal, is fascinating. No names, no degrees, no special designations; just people who want to see scientology stop its bigotry and abusive nature for once and for all.
To Lou, the scientologist... I am new to all of this, but all it took was a little research. When you've got blinders on, all you can see is what is placed in front of you. When you take them off, your perspective changes. Take off the blinders, Lou. You have the right to see everything.
* According to scientology websites and other information I've seen, scientologists take everything written by L. Ron Hubbard as TRUTH. Everything he wrote (barring the science-fiction, I think), everything he said in lectures, is considered "source" and should be obeyed unquestioningly. Weird that Lou wouldn't believe direct quotes from Hubbard himself....
It's about Scientology's MOST SACRED TEXTS. Which have been reprinted again and again for 50+ years with the same repugnant statements, with no disclaimer, repudiation, clarification or modification by Scientology. Why not?
As a matter of fact, Dr. Lilly's article doesn't really address Scientology's gay people, nor whether there is "overt" homophobia in everyday Scientology: the article only discusses these statements in Scientology's core texts. One must assume that official Scientology is happy with them.
In real life of the year 2008, I'm sure there are GLBTIQ people in Scientology who think it is great. But I have to tell you, I know of several ex-members, who attained to high OT-levels, who say that they were treated very badly because they were gay.
Hubbard's gay son committed suicide.
Why won't Scientology repudiate those offensive statements?
As a matter of fact, Dr. Lilly's article doesn't really address Scientology's gay people, nor whether there is "overt" homophobia in everyday Scientology: the article only discusses these statements in Scientology's core texts. One must assume that official Scientology is happy with them.
In real life of the year 2008, I'm sure there are GLBTIQ people in Scientology who think it is great. But I have to tell you, I know of several ex-members, who attained to high OT-levels, who say that they were treated very badly because they were gay.
Hubbard's gay son committed suicide.
Why won't Scientology repudiate those offensive statements?
For more information:
http://www.xenu.net
piff BG just threw out an amazing article, well written, saying we are the funnest protest group sicne 1969
does your cult hav any reveiws like that?
oh and i mean reveiws from ppl outside cha cult, ppl inside aren't alouwed to speak their mind on those topics
lulz...california just got the right for gays to marry**by marry i mean when they buy a house it's in both names, so if one dies, the other one gets the house, basicaly same rights as thouse that r marryed**
the internet is sersly buisnes
the cult is being swamped from all sides^_^ jump ship while u can
MUDKIPS 4 LIFE^_^ OR UNTILL IT BECOMES UN-FASHIONABLE
does your cult hav any reveiws like that?
oh and i mean reveiws from ppl outside cha cult, ppl inside aren't alouwed to speak their mind on those topics
lulz...california just got the right for gays to marry**by marry i mean when they buy a house it's in both names, so if one dies, the other one gets the house, basicaly same rights as thouse that r marryed**
the internet is sersly buisnes
the cult is being swamped from all sides^_^ jump ship while u can
MUDKIPS 4 LIFE^_^ OR UNTILL IT BECOMES UN-FASHIONABLE
No MW, you show me LGBTs that have been attacked or discriminated against by Scientologists, or not accepted, or in any way, shape or form been mistreated. And you - being the one who attacks here with false, biased and disgusting "information" - show me how it is ok to spread slander and falsehoods about the Scientology religion without any effing evidence. I have worked with peopleof the LGBT movement and find them good and courageous people doing a lot of work for their cause, but people like "Lilly" here or the Anonymous pranksters just want your money and work to help them destroy a religion. This is what is happening here.
Do a Google search for "Dr. Lilly von Marcab" and you'll see just how obsessed this person is with attacking Scientology.
Sure, I'd love to see a lot of things change in the Church of Scientology too, but this person is just completely stalking the church in some sort of over-the-top blind hate campaign. Apparently "Lilly" literally lives online and spends every waking moment railing against Scientology and posting links to the same handful of crank websites webmastered by the same handful of cranks, all of whom are buddies who back each other up. In short, it's a pressure group, a mob of cyber-thugs, a bunch of haters and bullies who claim they're not out to harass individual Scientologists and yet they do so on a constant basis.
They can't get the mainstream media to listen to their conspiracy theories about Scientology, so they have to resort to every online venue that allows anonymous posting, such as blogs, 'leave a comment' fields, and free-for-all "anyone can contribute"-type venues like Indymedia, Wikinews, Wikileaks, ShortNews, etc. They cling to the Time Magazine cover "expose" on Scientology like it's still current (even though it came out 15 years ago).
Read "Lilly"'s very first sentence: "As cities around the world prepare for their annual Pride celebrations, it is worth considering the "Church" of Scientology's official position on gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered and queer people". WHY is it "worth considering" anyway? This is typical of this person's mindset, the need to force the subject of Scientology (and its imaginary evils) into any and every possible discussion, wherever possible. The campaign to discredit Scientology has now officially become every bit as cultish, rabid, and obsessive as Scientology is accused of being itself.
"Lilly" then goes on to state: "According to Scientology, such "perverts" should either be quarantined and institutionalized", but "she" knows that's just not true, but "she" doesn't care about spreading lies because any lie that hurts the Church is, in these people's minds, acceptable. Hubbard apparently did once make such statements OVER HALF A CENTURY AGO, but so did most U.S. Presidents and politicians at the time (and for decades afterward). Many Christian religious leaders - such as Billy Graham and the Pope - still denounce homosexuals to this very day. But people like "Lilly" don't care about that, they're only interested in going after Scientology because of their own highly personal agenda and grudges.
From what I've read, Hubbard himself retracted those statements in the 1960s and became much more liberal, and the Church itself has made it clear for decades now that they welcome anyone, regardless of race, gender, or sexual preference. (Is it necessarily true in practice, just because they say it? Well, no, but the same can be said for Christianity, Catholicism, Mormons, Baptists, and everyone else.)
These anti-Scientology nuts will say anything, do anything, twist any facts, and use over-for-decades subjects (like "Fair Game" and "Snow White") in their insane zeal to slander Scientology. It's getting really tiresome, and making me increasingly leaning in defense of Scientologists, if only because of the sheer "asshole factor" of their detractors.
Sure, I'd love to see a lot of things change in the Church of Scientology too, but this person is just completely stalking the church in some sort of over-the-top blind hate campaign. Apparently "Lilly" literally lives online and spends every waking moment railing against Scientology and posting links to the same handful of crank websites webmastered by the same handful of cranks, all of whom are buddies who back each other up. In short, it's a pressure group, a mob of cyber-thugs, a bunch of haters and bullies who claim they're not out to harass individual Scientologists and yet they do so on a constant basis.
They can't get the mainstream media to listen to their conspiracy theories about Scientology, so they have to resort to every online venue that allows anonymous posting, such as blogs, 'leave a comment' fields, and free-for-all "anyone can contribute"-type venues like Indymedia, Wikinews, Wikileaks, ShortNews, etc. They cling to the Time Magazine cover "expose" on Scientology like it's still current (even though it came out 15 years ago).
Read "Lilly"'s very first sentence: "As cities around the world prepare for their annual Pride celebrations, it is worth considering the "Church" of Scientology's official position on gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered and queer people". WHY is it "worth considering" anyway? This is typical of this person's mindset, the need to force the subject of Scientology (and its imaginary evils) into any and every possible discussion, wherever possible. The campaign to discredit Scientology has now officially become every bit as cultish, rabid, and obsessive as Scientology is accused of being itself.
"Lilly" then goes on to state: "According to Scientology, such "perverts" should either be quarantined and institutionalized", but "she" knows that's just not true, but "she" doesn't care about spreading lies because any lie that hurts the Church is, in these people's minds, acceptable. Hubbard apparently did once make such statements OVER HALF A CENTURY AGO, but so did most U.S. Presidents and politicians at the time (and for decades afterward). Many Christian religious leaders - such as Billy Graham and the Pope - still denounce homosexuals to this very day. But people like "Lilly" don't care about that, they're only interested in going after Scientology because of their own highly personal agenda and grudges.
From what I've read, Hubbard himself retracted those statements in the 1960s and became much more liberal, and the Church itself has made it clear for decades now that they welcome anyone, regardless of race, gender, or sexual preference. (Is it necessarily true in practice, just because they say it? Well, no, but the same can be said for Christianity, Catholicism, Mormons, Baptists, and everyone else.)
These anti-Scientology nuts will say anything, do anything, twist any facts, and use over-for-decades subjects (like "Fair Game" and "Snow White") in their insane zeal to slander Scientology. It's getting really tiresome, and making me increasingly leaning in defense of Scientologists, if only because of the sheer "asshole factor" of their detractors.
Because whether or not any gays are happy in modern Scientology, the cult still tacitly approves of these statements. There is no footnote, no preface, no nothing to indicate that Scientology does not approve. That's what this article is about. You Scientologists had better wise up. Attacking the remarks of other commenters and trying to get them to prove stuff to you is just a sign of your desperation. Why can't Scientologists argue about substantive points?
Why won't Scientology repudiate those statements in two of its most important books?
Scientologists: If you cannot answer that question without shifting it or evading it, I have one word for you: Downstat.
Please run a doubt formula on Anonymous.
For more information:
http://www.xenu.net
A Scientologist mentioned that the mainstream media won't listen. Oh yeah?
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/the_way_we_live/article4173635.ece
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/the_way_we_live/article4173635.ece
For more information:
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_an...
A direct quote from Michael Pattinsonn-FORMER OT8
Was told that being GAY was his RUIN on his personality test http://www.lermanet.com/michaelpattinson/
.Being gay was not ever my choice or intention but it is not something that Scientology will ever "handle" however much one spends (I spent close to a half million dollars in Scientology, and I still want my money back!). Scioentology considers being gay as an "aberration" that needs to be erased. However, they don't erase it and are in actual practice anti-gay (as I and others got sent to "ethics" correction for such behavior). They did, however, accept hundreds of thousands of "Gay dollars" from me in full for a service they never delivered in full.Being gay may be something we don't understand yet but it exists in millions of people and, even when humans who misapply their own religious beliefs and spit hate out at gays, God loves me just the way I am.
8. I have never known ANYONE to flawlessly pass the "personality test". So there is ALWAYS fodder to ask the testee for money to "handle".
That, alone, is worth more than all I ever got out of Scientology.
(The note at the end of the last section where I mentioned that something was worth more than all I ever got in Scientology referred to the fact that now I know God loves me just the way I am).
THIS IS WHY!
Was told that being GAY was his RUIN on his personality test http://www.lermanet.com/michaelpattinson/
.Being gay was not ever my choice or intention but it is not something that Scientology will ever "handle" however much one spends (I spent close to a half million dollars in Scientology, and I still want my money back!). Scioentology considers being gay as an "aberration" that needs to be erased. However, they don't erase it and are in actual practice anti-gay (as I and others got sent to "ethics" correction for such behavior). They did, however, accept hundreds of thousands of "Gay dollars" from me in full for a service they never delivered in full.Being gay may be something we don't understand yet but it exists in millions of people and, even when humans who misapply their own religious beliefs and spit hate out at gays, God loves me just the way I am.
8. I have never known ANYONE to flawlessly pass the "personality test". So there is ALWAYS fodder to ask the testee for money to "handle".
That, alone, is worth more than all I ever got out of Scientology.
(The note at the end of the last section where I mentioned that something was worth more than all I ever got in Scientology referred to the fact that now I know God loves me just the way I am).
THIS IS WHY!
Bystander, here is one of the basic basic tenets of Scientology:
"What is true for you is what you have observed yourself. And when you lose that you have lost everything."
Might work for you as well. It is in any case better than blindly repeating crap from websites whose whole purpose is to denigrate and ridicule. What can you expect from these sites (nicely link spammed here as usual)? Biased information. So please get the full picture.
"What is true for you is what you have observed yourself. And when you lose that you have lost everything."
Might work for you as well. It is in any case better than blindly repeating crap from websites whose whole purpose is to denigrate and ridicule. What can you expect from these sites (nicely link spammed here as usual)? Biased information. So please get the full picture.
For more information:
http://www.scientologymyths.info
"I was told" bla, bla and bla. Hardly qualifies as "facts".
Omar, I am running one website and my name is Louanne (or Lou, if I am lazy). I have no nerve to answer to your cut and paste propaganda. It's your choice if you go on with a lot of disinformation in your head or do some thorough research.
For more information:
http://www.scientologymyths.info
"Why can't Scientologists argue about substantive points?"
I do as much as I can. That's why I have a website and a blog (below). Send me questions and I'll see what I can dig out.
- Louanne
I do as much as I can. That's why I have a website and a blog (below). Send me questions and I'll see what I can dig out.
- Louanne
For more information:
http://scientologymyths.wordpress.com
"Anonymous" is being funded by the Psychiatrists of the Marcab Confederacy, who are in charge of Germany, with the German Secret Service as intermediaries"
Bull. Shit.
You are trying to make ""Anonymous" important, that's all.
But be that as it may, I take questions at my blog.
Bull. Shit.
You are trying to make ""Anonymous" important, that's all.
But be that as it may, I take questions at my blog.
For more information:
http://scientologymyths.wordpress.com
Why won't Scientology repudiate those statements in two of its most important books?
Scientologists: If you cannot answer that question without shifting it or evading it, I have one word for you: Downstat.
And no, I'm not going to follow you over to your blog and ask you there. I'm asking here.
If only you could open your mind a little. I'm sorry to say that you are laboring under some very serious misapprehensions about the world, about Hubbard's life, about Scientology itself. You seem unaware that the the world sees right through Scientology's smoke and mirrors and is no longer fooled. Scientology is only going to go downhill from this point. It will be a rude awakening when you finally see the reality of Scientology's extensive crimes. I'm not talking about belief systems and personal religion. That's not the issue. I'm talking about Scientology and the RTC as organizations. You will be surprised, and you won't be happy.
Why won't Scientology repudiate those hateful Hubbard statements in two of its most important books?
Scientologists: If you cannot answer that question without shifting it or evading it, I have one word for you: Downstat.
For more information:
http://www.xenu.net
Excellent article, you should post it on shortnews.
Always Attack. Never defend.
Isn't that right, Lou?
Ad hominem attacks eventually lose their effectiveness when the ears you're do desperately trying to attract tune you out.
Isn't that right, Lou?
Ad hominem attacks eventually lose their effectiveness when the ears you're do desperately trying to attract tune you out.
The only "attacks" I see here the usual gang of losers trying to spread their "Scientology is evil" campaign. Big yawn. Anyone who wants to know that knows it already. The ones like "Bystander"'s obviously fake "I just met these people wearing masks and didn't know much about Scientology but now I'm going to totally attack Lou" routine are cute though, like children who don't realize they're walking around leaving a trail of toilet paper stuck to their shoe.
Why not? Because they CANNOT argue on substantive points. Incapable. So much for "the tech."
DOWNSTAT!
DOWNSTAT!
For more information:
http://www.xenu.net
This "body thetan" asshole reminds me of a crazy street person who wants to force you into some loony argument of his that doesn't interest you in the least, and as you walk away, he yells at you up the street, "AHA!!! hahahahahah!!! Let the record show you are INCAPABLE of responding to my superior arguments or answering my questions!"
Lack of substantive response to your noise probably means no one really cares what you have to say. I don't really think Scientologists are required to type out long thought-out rebuttals to anything you type.
It's not all about YOU and what YOU want to talk about, see.
Lack of substantive response to your noise probably means no one really cares what you have to say. I don't really think Scientologists are required to type out long thought-out rebuttals to anything you type.
It's not all about YOU and what YOU want to talk about, see.
A question that is integral not only to this article, but to Scientology's approach to GLBT etc. Your "tech" seems to consist of "change the subject." Why no "confront"?
<b>Why won't Scientology repudiate those hateful Hubbard statements in two of its most important books? It does nothing but reprint them over and over again. No disclaimer, no footnote, no nothing. Why?</b>
Scientologists: If you cannot answer that question without shifting it or evading it, I have one word for you: Downstat.
<b>Why won't Scientology repudiate those hateful Hubbard statements in two of its most important books? It does nothing but reprint them over and over again. No disclaimer, no footnote, no nothing. Why?</b>
Scientologists: If you cannot answer that question without shifting it or evading it, I have one word for you: Downstat.
For more information:
http://www.enturbulation.org
A - After you're done googling Lilly, google Terryeo, Louanne (or Lou, or Luanne, etc), GrnApl, Sylver, bgodley or any of the other numerous names OSA or CCHR uses for trolling articles critical of Scientology. Really, google LEAF project CCHR and read all the leaked emails regarding this. Real life enough for you, Lou?
B - To see what you call personal and disgusting attacks, find Norge's comments and use them as a template.
C - After you've googled the names mentioned in A, see how many comments you can find by various plants that start "I'm not a Scientologist but..."
D - Let's ask Jason Beghe about how his gay friend caused a car accident simply by being gay. And, then, as mentioned above, there's Michael Pattinson. You can't "cure" being gay Scientology. And implying it's something you can "cure" is in itself offensive.
E - Let's take a look at what's happening in Belgium right now or what happened in Greece in the 90's to see how much the CoS has reformed. Decades old, eh? Not so much.
In summation, if we're getting it SO wrong, refute it. Show me the current version of the Tone Scale and what is said to do about those at 2.0 or lower on it.
It's the same song and dance from your side everywhere I look and has been, yet, Anonymous keeps finding new and terrible things out about the CoS and exposing them week after week.
Make some effort to repair your public image, reform some of the less than civil practices, be open to debate. If you're so positive that what you've observed in Scientology is real, then why wouldn't you be open to debate it? Other faiths engage in debate with non-believers as a way to educate and, in some cases, learn. Why not you? Why the blatant disregard for legitimate questions? Why the ad hominem attacks?
I've only encountered 1 Scientologist that engaged in open minded level headed debate/discussion. Guess how the rest acted?
B - To see what you call personal and disgusting attacks, find Norge's comments and use them as a template.
C - After you've googled the names mentioned in A, see how many comments you can find by various plants that start "I'm not a Scientologist but..."
D - Let's ask Jason Beghe about how his gay friend caused a car accident simply by being gay. And, then, as mentioned above, there's Michael Pattinson. You can't "cure" being gay Scientology. And implying it's something you can "cure" is in itself offensive.
E - Let's take a look at what's happening in Belgium right now or what happened in Greece in the 90's to see how much the CoS has reformed. Decades old, eh? Not so much.
In summation, if we're getting it SO wrong, refute it. Show me the current version of the Tone Scale and what is said to do about those at 2.0 or lower on it.
It's the same song and dance from your side everywhere I look and has been, yet, Anonymous keeps finding new and terrible things out about the CoS and exposing them week after week.
Make some effort to repair your public image, reform some of the less than civil practices, be open to debate. If you're so positive that what you've observed in Scientology is real, then why wouldn't you be open to debate it? Other faiths engage in debate with non-believers as a way to educate and, in some cases, learn. Why not you? Why the blatant disregard for legitimate questions? Why the ad hominem attacks?
I've only encountered 1 Scientologist that engaged in open minded level headed debate/discussion. Guess how the rest acted?
For more information:
http://www.enturbbulation.org
Our friend "Lou" is making anonymous's job far, far easier. How many times already has he/she been presented with anti-gay quotes from dianetics/science of survival, and ignored them studiously, replying with baseless accusations of religious bigotry/hatred? No attempt whatsoever is made to try and excuse them, as scientologists are taught never to question the "source" and many "church" documents expound on the sheer importance of never changing "church" "tech" (obviously ignored by david "I will squirrel the tech and you will love it" miscavaige).
Thanks Lou! just keep on aiming at that foot of yours and shooting away. Just make sure to try and keep your stats up before you get RPF'ed :)
Thanks Lou! just keep on aiming at that foot of yours and shooting away. Just make sure to try and keep your stats up before you get RPF'ed :)
Orange Lucozade, I can't change books written 50-something years ago. What counts is how they are understood, taught and applied. And that is not anti-gay, as our dear spin doctor Lillly von Marcab tries to present. I was talking about this already. Sorry that you missed that.
Too bad that you can't come. What was your question exactly?
Posted this evening on Queers Without Borders. Check us out http://www.queerswithutborders.com/wpmu. Thank you Dr. Lilly von Marcab.
Any evidence of this?
Are you really going to go against KSW and claim that hubbards "source tech" can be changed/applied in ways other than he intended?
Why not some form of disclaimer, or a statement to the press or LGBT community to the contrary?
How about the various sec-checks that are available on the internet, verified by former scientologists, and again by scientology lawyers attempting to sue for their removal, that ask questions like:
27: Have you ever practiced homosexuality?
30: Have you ever practiced sodomy?
inbetween questions such as "have you ever murdered anyone", "have you ever bombed anyone" and "have you ever slept with a member of a race of a different colour?". And thats just one type of "sec-check"
Are you going to explain what former scientologists, including Jason Beghe have revealed on leaving, that gay people are considered PTS/SP and need to be handled or disconnected from?
How about the various videos on youtube where scientologists were asked at various flashraids about their opinions on gays/lesbians, and replied directly along the same lines as dianetics?
Such as http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38JYjM39YOI , in which an undercover investigator attends a dianetics center and is told he can be "cured" of being gay.
or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7dK-UYjOAs a former OT7 talks about homosexuality and scientology
or maybe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbZh5sejqHw&feature=related where the head of the NYC org calls protesters "a bunch of faggots" along with several other slurs
relevant part of the Beghe interview http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blayLxpzuEE
a london mini-raid, a protester is assaulted, then accused of being gay http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6igOEnI_H4c
or the panorama interview where shaun lonsdale is attacked and fairgamed on account of his gay past?
or any one of the hundreds of other results that pop up?
Are you really going to go against KSW and claim that hubbards "source tech" can be changed/applied in ways other than he intended?
Why not some form of disclaimer, or a statement to the press or LGBT community to the contrary?
How about the various sec-checks that are available on the internet, verified by former scientologists, and again by scientology lawyers attempting to sue for their removal, that ask questions like:
27: Have you ever practiced homosexuality?
30: Have you ever practiced sodomy?
inbetween questions such as "have you ever murdered anyone", "have you ever bombed anyone" and "have you ever slept with a member of a race of a different colour?". And thats just one type of "sec-check"
Are you going to explain what former scientologists, including Jason Beghe have revealed on leaving, that gay people are considered PTS/SP and need to be handled or disconnected from?
How about the various videos on youtube where scientologists were asked at various flashraids about their opinions on gays/lesbians, and replied directly along the same lines as dianetics?
Such as http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38JYjM39YOI , in which an undercover investigator attends a dianetics center and is told he can be "cured" of being gay.
or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7dK-UYjOAs a former OT7 talks about homosexuality and scientology
or maybe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbZh5sejqHw&feature=related where the head of the NYC org calls protesters "a bunch of faggots" along with several other slurs
relevant part of the Beghe interview http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blayLxpzuEE
a london mini-raid, a protester is assaulted, then accused of being gay http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6igOEnI_H4c
or the panorama interview where shaun lonsdale is attacked and fairgamed on account of his gay past?
or any one of the hundreds of other results that pop up?
Wow! I come back to check on the debate and I've been attacked for being a fake person!
If it hadnt been for Orange's post right there, I might have just left this at pity for the scientologist, Lou. But now I've dug too deep. There's no way I can just sit back and let people like this get away with twisting the minds of innocent people.
This needs to stop.
If it hadnt been for Orange's post right there, I might have just left this at pity for the scientologist, Lou. But now I've dug too deep. There's no way I can just sit back and let people like this get away with twisting the minds of innocent people.
This needs to stop.
I guess Lou never read Dianetics? Otherwise he wouldn't be so quick to deny L Ron Hubbard's own words about gay people. How can you deny something that is written in your cult's most important book? Then again, it's just like anyone and everyone denying the writings about Xenu, and then suing anyone who makes them available for breach of copyright. You either believe this stuff, or you don't, and if you don't, then you're just in it for the money, which to me is even worse than believing the bigotry. Either way you are perpetuating it, and denying it at the same time. This is what scientologists do: you can tell when one of them is lying, his/her lips are moving.
Lou... your apologetics all seem to center around "BUT LRH SAID ALL OF THIS HOMOPHOBIC STUFF OVER 50 YEARS AGO AND THAT'S OKAY BECAUSE EVERYBODY WROTE HOMOPHOBIC STUFF BACK THEN!" (followed by your usual ad hominem attacks and claims of religious bigotry)
Thing is, the tone scale... the quotes equating homosexuality with "perversion"... and the concept that it's a peachy idea to institutionalize homosexuals STILL APPEAR IN THE MOST CURRENT VERSIONS OF THE FUCKING BOOKS AND MATERIALS BEING PUBLISHED AND SOLD BY SCIENTOLOGY.
"Oh, but we're not REALLY homophobic anymore..." doesn't cut it. I mean, shit, how much more evidence do you need than to read it in a book put out by the freakin' organization you're so fond of blindly defending? IT'S RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF YOUR EYES AND YOU STILL DENY IT.
If the CoS has decided Ron was wrong about his homophobic views... and that they really aren't so low on the tone scale they need to be institutionalized... then WHY IS IT STILL IN FUCKING WRITING?
Because LRH's written tech is perfect and un-alterable. Isn't it? Which is it, Lou -- were Ron's written words about homosexuality incorrect?
Anxiously awaiting your non-answer and claims that I'm a teenaged hacker kiddie just out to express my anti-religious bigotry.
Thing is, the tone scale... the quotes equating homosexuality with "perversion"... and the concept that it's a peachy idea to institutionalize homosexuals STILL APPEAR IN THE MOST CURRENT VERSIONS OF THE FUCKING BOOKS AND MATERIALS BEING PUBLISHED AND SOLD BY SCIENTOLOGY.
"Oh, but we're not REALLY homophobic anymore..." doesn't cut it. I mean, shit, how much more evidence do you need than to read it in a book put out by the freakin' organization you're so fond of blindly defending? IT'S RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF YOUR EYES AND YOU STILL DENY IT.
If the CoS has decided Ron was wrong about his homophobic views... and that they really aren't so low on the tone scale they need to be institutionalized... then WHY IS IT STILL IN FUCKING WRITING?
Because LRH's written tech is perfect and un-alterable. Isn't it? Which is it, Lou -- were Ron's written words about homosexuality incorrect?
Anxiously awaiting your non-answer and claims that I'm a teenaged hacker kiddie just out to express my anti-religious bigotry.
I've seen earlier prints which don't have this text about homosexuals. I guesshis text was added in the prints of the 1980's and onward.
Pieter
Pieter
From the Novemeber 2004 printing of Dianetics.
"The sexual pervert (and by this term Dianetics, to be brief, includes any and all forms of deviation in dynamic two such as homosexuality, lesbianism, sexual sadism, etc., and all down to the catalog of Ellis and KrafftEbing) is actually quite ill physically. Perversion, as an illness, has so many manifestations that it must be spread through the entire gamut of classes from 1 to 5 above. Overdevelopment of sexual organs, underdevelopment, seminal inhibition or magnification, etc., are found in one pervert, some in another. And the sum of it is that the pervert is always a very ill person in one way or another, whether he is conscious of it or not. He is very far from culpable for his condition, but he is also far from normal and so extremely dangerous to society that the tolerance of perversion is as thoroughly bad for society as punishment for it."
I'm sorry, Lou, but I cannot accept your argument that this passage in Dianetics is acceptable. Your Church has had every opportunity to change or remove this highly offensive and outdated view. Furthermore, the position of Hubbard that being gay is somehow contagious is ridiculous and disgusting.
I don't care if you say that no Scientologist would ever discriminate against gay people, the simple fact is that the above passage is discriminatory and Scientology has not removed it from the book, thereby giving the impression that they agree with the statement as it is made, or are, in the very least, not so offended by it that it warrents removal or correction.
"The sexual pervert (and by this term Dianetics, to be brief, includes any and all forms of deviation in dynamic two such as homosexuality, lesbianism, sexual sadism, etc., and all down to the catalog of Ellis and KrafftEbing) is actually quite ill physically. Perversion, as an illness, has so many manifestations that it must be spread through the entire gamut of classes from 1 to 5 above. Overdevelopment of sexual organs, underdevelopment, seminal inhibition or magnification, etc., are found in one pervert, some in another. And the sum of it is that the pervert is always a very ill person in one way or another, whether he is conscious of it or not. He is very far from culpable for his condition, but he is also far from normal and so extremely dangerous to society that the tolerance of perversion is as thoroughly bad for society as punishment for it."
I'm sorry, Lou, but I cannot accept your argument that this passage in Dianetics is acceptable. Your Church has had every opportunity to change or remove this highly offensive and outdated view. Furthermore, the position of Hubbard that being gay is somehow contagious is ridiculous and disgusting.
I don't care if you say that no Scientologist would ever discriminate against gay people, the simple fact is that the above passage is discriminatory and Scientology has not removed it from the book, thereby giving the impression that they agree with the statement as it is made, or are, in the very least, not so offended by it that it warrents removal or correction.
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