Police Outside of Home on Riverside Avenue
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Mercury News
Article Launched: 02/25/2008 10:53:15 AM PST
Wearing bandannas to cover their faces, a group of men pounded on the front door of a Santa Cruz home Sunday and struck a man who opened the door to confront them.
Santa Cruz police are investigating the incident, which left the man with minor injuries.
"It's unclear what their motive was," Lt. Rudy Escalante said. "They were pounding on the door. The resident was struck by something."
Around 12:50 p.m., Santa Cruz police responded to the city's west side on California Street to reports of six men who were pounding on the front door of a residence. The man told police he had secured his wife and children in the back of the home, then went to the front of the house to investigate. When it appeared the door might break open, the man opened it and confronted the group, according to police.
The man, who was struck by an object, fended off the attackers, according to police. The group of attackers fled in a vehicle.
Police obtained a description of the vehicle from a witness and served a search warrant for a residence in the 700 block of Riverside Avenue. Police found several items of evidence related to the investigation. Five people were home when the warrant was served, but no arrests were made, Escalante said.
Anyone with information regarding this incident is asked to call the Santa Cruz police TIP LINE at (831) 420-5995.
Protest is one thing. And it is a beautiful thing that we are allowed to do so in this country.
Physical violence, on the other hand, is another thing.
While arguing animal rights is important, I think most of the people here are looking over what's being discussed. Think ACLU: it sucks that stupid people have the right to say really fucked up things, but there is no reason for them to be silenced. Similarly, regardless of why they were there, it is fucked up that this is happening to these people.
When I first read this report, all I knew was that police had shown up after some people had legally protested.
Now I read that the police showed up because people hid their identities, terrorized a family in their house, and assaulted a citizen in his doorway.
When I first read the report, I thought it was an overreaction by the police.
When I read it in the context of the SJ Mercury news, I think it's an appropriate response.
SANTA CRUZ - More than a dozen police officers stormed a house in the 700 block of Riverside Avenue late Sunday night and confiscated cell phones, clothing and paperwork in connection with a case of stalking, conspiracy and an attempted home invasion burglary on the city's Westside earlier in the day.
The police department's SWAT team broke down the side door to house at 9:50 p.m. and searched the residence where three UCSC seniors reportedly live. Inside police say they found several items relative to the investigation and possible other attacks.
The search lasted more than three hours and ended a little after 1 a.m., said Lt. Rudy Escalante, adding that the three people in the house were suspects in the home invasion and when police tried to question them, they slammed the door and told them to get a search warrant.
According to Escalante, six suspects wearing bandanas pounded on the front door of the Westside residence about 1 p.m. The homeowner secured his wife and child in the back of the home and when he believed they would break down the door he answered. The victim, who was confronted by several people, was hit with a black object and suffered minor injuries.
"They were wearing bandanas on their faces and were screaming and trying to break into the house," said Escalante. "Witnesses gave us information on the suspect vehicle. We tracked it to Riverside Avenue. We obtained a search warrant. We served the search warrant last night. It's relative to a home invasion and right now the case is continuing. We've got evidence we're processing."
The owner of the house on Riverside Avenue, Frank Male, said he received a call from police Sunday afternoon letting him know that three of his tenants were not cooperating with the investigation and that they were going to have to obtain a search warrant and possibly break down the door.
Male said he gave police officers the keys to the house, but Escalante said officers broke down the side door when no one answered.
Joe Marcus, a concerned Santa Cruz resident, said he heard the "shattering glass" and a woman inside the house "scream" once police barged through the door.
Male said his tenants kept his house clean and in the month he's rented to them have posed no problems.
Several students from UCSC gathered around the house in the early afternoon. Some of them were wearing bandanas on their faces.
The Santa Cruz County Sheriff's Office helped police secure the area, Escalante said.
"The sheriff's office got called in later after the crowd got agitated," he said.
While the search was taking place, protesters taunted the officers, asking them to reveal their badge numbers and shining flashlights in their eyes. When officers emerged from the house carrying seized evidence, some of the students were following the police, taking pictures of the undercover squad car and its license plates with their cells phones.
No arrests have been made and the investigation is continuing.
******
So these guys terrorized a family, broke into their home, assaulted the man with an object and fled. And some of you have no problem with this. Absolutely unbelievable.
The police had "just cause" to question them, and came back with a warrant.
Do these students know how much trouble they are in if found guilty of this??!!
Wasn't media spin one of the reasons O.J.'s case was compromised?
If the police said, This was an animal rights demo and we (and the FBI and the Joint Terrorism Task Force we receive money from) believe that even peaceful demos are the nations number one terrorism threat, it would be much harder to swallow this kind of overreaction and repression.
So as far as I'm concerned, on facts, the jury's out. If you have the attention span to follow this story, watch what comes out. Bet you that later, the assault claim will be retracted.
And uh, no, a landlord cannot give police permission to enter his/her tenant's houses. And hiding your identity is itself not a crime. And you are under no legal obligation to let police into your homes, or to answer their questions. And no, refusing to answer questions is explicitly called out by the courts as NOT probably cause. And no you do not have to identify yourself in this state (though you do increase your risk of arrest if you are a suspect).
Why do so many people on Indymedia spout such ignorant authoritative bullshit? If you don't know, are not sure, or are just full of supposition, why not be clear? Failing that, how about you shut the fuck up?
Who are you speaking about? The family that was threatened, forced into the back of their home, children terrorized, and the husband beat over the head with and object? Or the students that slammed a door in the face of the police?
This is unbelievable. Are you the kind of person that stands up for rapists and then makes the victim prove that they are not a liar?
No, terrorism is when you are forced to hide the back of your home while people wearing masks beat your husband and father at the front door and then run off into the night like cowards.
nothing is coming out of this discussion except ideological arguments.
let's chill for a bit.
A) you cannot enter tenants property without consent of tenants, which was obviously not given
B) given such, their front yard is their property, they were asked to leave and didn't. again, this is trespassing on part of the police officers.
C) and, specifically what I was talking about, the warrant WAS NOT PRESENTED WHEN THEY ENTERED THE HOUSE. I went in and interviewed the people living there after the police left. When the swat team arrived, they knocked once. The tenants asked to see a warrant, the door was then broken down without response. They were held at gunpoint. They demanded to see a warrant. Continued for a good 30 minutes or so, and then the police responded with "the warrant is on its way".
No, you cannot enter property, no matter whether the homeowner is present or not, without a warrant PRESENT.
"Witnesses gave us information on the suspect vehicle." Not the suspects' vehicle, the suspect vehicle. Why was it suspect? As far as I have heard, it is suspect because, at a protest, witnesses saw masked protestors get into the car after publicly raising questions regarding the ethics of animal testing at researcher's home and then, later, masked protestors assaulted this researcher at said home. By no means is this kind of assault OK. All I am wondering is: is the only thing validating the SC Police departments extreme show of force the tenuous connection that people in masks were seen both leaving the protest in the "suspect vehicle" as well as later attacking someone? Everyone wears masks at protests. So, as far as I have heard, the reason that the Santa Cruz Police department decided to have the SWAT team break down someones door and hold them at gunpoint is because they were wearing masks? Like I said, assault of this kind is not only mean-spirited, it is detrimental to a greater cause and only cheapens the real validity of animal rights avtivites. However, if the only evidence that police needed to point guns at college students was the common coincidence of wearing a mask at a protest, think about all the things tying you to someone committing illegal activities, and realize that they may be enough to have your house raided by people in suits of armor, gas masks, and guns.
P.S. When did college students become public enemy number one in the eyes of the public? Was it when anti-intellectualism began sweeping the country? Or was it when the politicians you all so proudly voted for raised tuitions to such extremes that only the wealthy few could attend? College students have for centuries been the leaders of important social movements, but in America they are demonised. What gives?
Terrorizing a family into hiding in the back of their house while the father/husband is beaten on the head by masked cowards are not a thinking man's actions.
Stalking people and planning vandalism on their personal property are not a thinking man's actions.
Hiding your identity from others while performing illegal activity is not a thinking man's action.
They are the actions of a desperate person who cannot achieve their goal without inciting fear on another group of people.
Now where have we heard that before?
A) they haven't been charged. Meaning, in the eyes of the law, they have done nothing wrong yet. Innocent until proven guilty.
B) the ONLY place this information came from was ONE san jose newspaper. The sentinal reprinted the same article in their own.
C) the facts DO NOT add up as to when people where preforming this activity that day, and when they were barracaded in their home.
D) OF FUCKING COURSE THEY WEAR MASKS. Take a look at other political groups in the past: Black Panthers, IWW, SDS, etc. All of them have instances of police IDing them in a crowd, when they have done nothing wrong, and planting fake evidence, placing bogus charges, and doing exactly what they did here: get a warrant to raid their house. There are countless incidence of the police doing this in this country, despite that most people have done nothing wrong. Masks are not a way to get away with a crime: its an act of security against a force that will gladly strangle you for nothing more than being someplace that is undesireable.
i know, liberal, you don't think you are a cop, but to those for whom the police are actually a problem and those you use the cops against. you too, liberal, are a cop.
when did indymedia become a mouthpiece for liberal apologism? fucking free speech biting us in the ass... good thing freedom's about a lot fucking more than what we can post on the internet. but for you cops and liberals, is it?
thanx to "patriotic and ignorant". the liberals don't realize they are enemies, if you can't beat 'em join em....
"community supporter," right on, at least you want to keep the conversation on track. you don't have to be militant vegan to resist the police state just because today that's who the state chooses. liberals, when they come for you they'll be no one left to defend you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...
Yes, Ben the police are state robots protecting their greedy masters and vested interests
Your assertion that anyone who disagrees with you is "anti-intellectual" is a laugh. (Check out the average IQ of Bush or the police)
Terrorizing a family into hiding in the back of their house while the father/husband is beaten on the head by masked cowards are not a thinking man's actions. (The police do this all the time!)
Stalking people and planning vandalism on their personal property are not a thinking man's actions. (Again, this is called a police raid)
Hiding your identity from others while performing illegal activity is not a thinking man's action. (How many police that broke into the property and stole personal belongings gave their name or number?)
They are the actions of a desperate person who cannot achieve their goal without inciting fear on another group of people. (More like a desperate government who can not achieve their goal without going to war illegally, remember that!)
Now where have we heard that before? (Most days probably - Governments and their lackies AKA 'the police' do the bidding of those with vested interests to keep the status quo in big business pharma that kills, maims and tortures millions of defenceless non-human animals every year - just so that adverse side effects from animal tested drugs is the third biggest killer in the US. Thousands of people die because of bad science. Time to wake up and take sides...
what part of intimidating someone and invading their house doesn't fit in the above definition? how does terrorizing a professor change anything? eco-protestors, get your shit together and stop espousing conspiracy theories and go through the proper channels (such as the police did), otherwise these battles will always end not in your favor.
invading peoples homes? you would have no legs to stand on, literally.
If you trivialize us or anyone else, you objectify us, and you might as well continue narrow-mindedly talking to yourself.
why don't you publish your name? your fear of being identified is just as irrational as your comment that assumes i am not informed. if you frequent the indy news board, you will find i have been one of the largest promoters of dialog between the protesters and the scientific community at ucsc. i have asked the indy community where this fear of science stems from and i still have not gotten a decent reply. if you find some of my previous posts, you will realize that i have conversed with the protesters as they were camped in front of my laboratory for quite some time.
as with all things, there are appropriate channels to change those things you don't agree with. the methodologies used by the ucsc protesters in the recent path have not been these. i believe in the right of dissent and the current era of protest at ucsc is fucking it up for everyone in the future. excuse my outrage for educators being targeted by people who really have no concept of their own plight yet less a cohesive plan of action that can augment change. i could write volumes paralleling the current student activist plight and iraq, but i'll leave that for a humanities student.
in summary, being a bully and performing violent protests are not the actions of forward thinking sentient people. until protesters come out of the shadows and become visible agents of change, they will always end up looking like the bad guys.
I don't know how many people saying this have actually tried to go throught the "proper channels", but let me tell you: it rarely works. Why on Earth would people stop doing something incredibly profitable, because a few college kids say that its wrong? Hell, if the entire world said it was wrong, and didn't do anything, would they stop? No, probably not, because the cash keeps flowing.
Also, how many times do I have to say that this is not only irrelevant, but also much less reliable than the information presented here. The ONLY info any of you are getting outside of here on the back story is ONE san jose newspaper (read: NOT LOCAL), and a santa cruz paper that stole what they said, and in affect misquoted it.
Stop talking about these people as terrorists, because you don't have any proof of it besides some hear-say in the form of an illogically written newspaper article a full city and a half over.
As for not calling them "terrorists"? How about that term gets dropped in exchange for "vivisectionists". Both are used to polarize the issue, and neither accurately portrays what these two groups are and do in most instances.
If a professor whose research includes the infrequent use of animals is a vivisectionist, then a well intended and typically non-violent student who gets over-impassioned and goes after that professor is a terrorist.
These people aren't necessarily terrorists: not because I believe that what they did does not count as terrorism, but because NO ONE KNOWS WHAT THEY ACTUALLY DID. Give it a few weeks and see what pops up. Wait for a statement from the person targeted and her husband; wait for a statement from the people involved with the home demo; WAIT FOR AN OFFICIAL PRESS RELEASE WITH MORE DETAILS THAN TWO PARAGRAPHS IN A NON-LOCAL NEWSPAPER.
This is what I'm saying. If you want to call them terrorists, thats fine, but keep in mind that you have no basis for the information. I'd take Primary sources over third-person sources anyday, but maybe that's just me.
To be believable you can’t just make shit up. A little information is a dangerous thing. You may have gone to some activist meeting to learn what your rights are, but rarely do you learn what the police rights are. Contrary to what you may believe, the cops know much more about what the law is than you do. While your blowing smoke, they are attending legal up-date training.
1) The location where the warrant was served is shared by three apartments. Any one of three with the addition of the landlord can give the police permission to be on the shared portion of the property.
2) Further case law allows the police to trespass in areas where there is reasonable suspicion of criminal activity, where there is no expectation of privacy. The ninth circuit has clearly stated that there is no expectation of privacy in a front yard of a residence.
3) There is no requirement that a copy of the warrant be presented to the occupants of a residence were a warrant is being served upon entry. The case law on this is based on officer safety. The police must present the occupants of a residence a copy of a search warrant, only after entry has been made and the premises has been secured. Your comment, “No, you cannot enter property, no matter whether the homeowner is present or not, without a warrant PRESENT.” Is not only factually incorrect, it is dangerous; as it gives the readers the impression they have the right obstruct police officers. This is the type of bad information that gets people hurt and doors broken down even when you have a key.
Why did the police get the keys? Why did they break down the door if they had keys?
There are so many aspects of this story that do not add up from the Sentinel, San Jose Mercury News, Santa Cruz Police and Chancellor Blumenthal. I do not believe the corporate media or the University of California. Where did Mark Gomez of the San Jose Mercury News go for his sources?
From the Mercury: "Wearing bandannas to cover their faces, a group of men pounded on the front door of a Santa Cruz home Sunday and struck a man who opened the door to confront them."
According to who? How do the Mercury News get away with not citing where they are getting their information. If the source is confidential, then say so. Was Mark Gomez at the demonstration? Of course not.
To: UCSC Community
Fr: Chancellor Blumenthal
Re: A Very Disturbing Incident Against UCSC Faculty
One of our faculty members, whose research addresses human disease, was the target Sunday afternoon of a very disturbing incident at the researcher's residence in the city of Santa Cruz. The faculty member and family were home when six masked intruders attempted to force their way into the family's residence. After a confrontation that involved a physical attack on one of the faculty member's family, the six intruders fled.
This incident appears to be part of a series of recent incidents targeting UC faculty, students, and staff who conduct biomedical research using animals. At UCSC, these incidents included earlier acts of intimidation, trespassing, vandalism, and property damage at the homes of faculty, staff, and students (see http://messages.ucsc.edu/text.asp?pid=1943).
I want you to know that we have reached out to this individual and others who were harassed earlier, offering them security and other support.
The faculty, students, and staff engaged in biomedical research on this campus shed light on the causes of breast cancer, neurological diseases, and on the toxic effects of lead and other metals. The work they do is critically important, improving our understanding of the causes and treatment of these and other diseases. Any research that involves animals is regulated by federal and state laws, and monitored by a committee comprising faculty, staff, and citizens from the Santa Cruz community.
Disagreement, debate, and dissent on a range of subjects are all hallmarks of a healthy university community. However, an attempted home invasion by masked perpetrators is not free speech -- it is a criminal act that threatens, intimidates, and stifles academic freedom.
For more than four decades, our faculty, students, and staff have been free to engage in scholarly research that has spanned the sciences, humanities, and arts. Attacks on this cherished freedom, such as the one that occurred on Sunday, should be chilling to each and every one of us.
If the police believe that they are in pursuit of someone suspected of a violent crime, a lot of normal protections go out the window. Also, like onespeed said, the cops know this stuff. This looked pretty "by the book" to me. If you don't like "the book", go and fight for change. But don't make up an "unreality".
yeah - I think the system of these protesters of identifying their targets is pretty flawed. Smith's work seems very good, if he was involved. There is all manner of stuff which is 3X as objectionable which you could find off campus in this region.
What I DO know, though, is the first thing I have been told my ENTIRE LIFE by every single lawyer is to never allow police on your premises unless they display a warrant. While that may be misinformation, its misinformation that not only I am spreading, but also every lawyer I have ever heard of and talked to. If this is not the case, I am more than happy to admit this is not true.
As for the rest:
"1) The location where the warrant was served is shared by three apartments. Any one of three with the addition of the landlord can give the police permission to be on the shared portion of the property."
While this is true, I believe this is "shared" portion, where, as far as I can tell, the front yard and the back yard are not shared, they are just to this house. Correct me if I'm wrong. I realize that there are other residences on the same lot, but I don't believe they have direct connection to these yards.
"2) Further case law allows the police to trespass in areas where there is reasonable suspicion of criminal activity, where there is no expectation of privacy. The ninth circuit has clearly stated that there is no expectation of privacy in a front yard of a residence."
While this is true, does this explain the back yard? Also, if there is suspicion, doesn't that mean no warrant is needed to enter the premises? While the above might account for no warrant being presented, it doesn't account for why there was even a warrant needed if there is probable cause.
"3) There is no requirement that a copy of the warrant be presented to the occupants of a residence were a warrant is being served upon entry. The case law on this is based on officer safety. The police must present the occupants of a residence a copy of a search warrant, only after entry has been made and the premises has been secured. Your comment, “No, you cannot enter property, no matter whether the homeowner is present or not, without a warrant PRESENT.” Is not only factually incorrect, it is dangerous; as it gives the readers the impression they have the right obstruct police officers. This is the type of bad information that gets people hurt and doors broken down even when you have a key."
Please site me where a warrant doesn't need to be present to enter private property. Unless this has happened within the last few years, I am tempted to call bullshit. If you present law stating that it can be given after the search has occured, thats fine, but I have never even heard of a case where a warrant doesn't need to be there.
And no, this does not give people the impression they have the right to obstruct police officers, it gives them the right to fair documentation. The people in the house never said "no" to letting the police in. They asked, as is there right, to see a warrant. If thats changed, thats fine.
And, on top of this, the who 'when you have a key' thing is, in reality, a load of shit. If they intended on using a key they would have no reason for a battering ram. They also wouldn't need to ask to be let in. The property damage occured almost the moment the person inside finished asking to see a warrant. There is nothing wrong with that, and there IS something wrong when the only response is a battering ram and rifles.
All of these words, kind, and gentle, and cruel, they are all perspective. You may think it's kind, someone else may think it's cruel. The point, is that logic reasons: it's ok to think differently. It's better if we think differently. That is why we have something called the freedom of speech and expression. This is evolution at it's finest! The right to protest and say, hey, we don't like what you're doing. It's called diversity, and I'm sure Darwin would agree.
And law enforcement, university power, and city power do not have the right to inflict such abuse and fear onto it's concerned citizens. We are the city, the law, and the education too. We can not tell people, you are not allowed to think this way, you are not allowed to voice your opinion and use non-violent means to try and effect change. No government or institution can rightfully tell anyone that. It's not part of the deal.
Power to the People.
Power to the Peaceful.
Hang tough Copwatchers, hang tough.
“D. Presenting the Warrant to the Occupant
If the occupant is present, you should show him the original warrant and give him a copy. (Nunes (1980) 100 Cal.App.3d 915, 935-937.) However, in California there is no such requirement. (Calabrese (2002) 101 Cal.App.4th 79, 84-85.) Therefore, the failure to do so will not result in suppression of the evidence seized. (Rodrigues-Fernandez (1991) 235 Cal.App.3d 543, 553; Calabrese (2002) 101 Cal.App.4th 79, 84-85.)
If no one is home, leave a copy of the warrant in a conspicuous place. If no one is home, leave a copy of the warrant in a conspicuous place.
However, it is not necessary to include notice of published, available, statutory or case-law remedies concerning how the seized property may be reclaimed once the state no longer has a right to retain it. (Perkins (1999) 525 U.S. 234, 238.)
On the other hand, you are required to leave behind a detailed list of the property taken, whether anyone is home or not. (Pen. Code, § 1535; Perkins (1999) 525 U.S. 234, 239.)”
However many departments such as the Santa Cruz Police Department make it a habit of doing so out of consideration for the occupants, and as I said earlier it is done after the premises is secured. Regardless if there is a law or not, think of what you’re saying here. Do you really think there would be a law in another instance, requiring the police to stop their high risk entry, where they know there are armed bank robbers, so the occupants could be presented with the warrant and then have wait till they read it; once it’s face such a requirement would absurd.
2) By definition, under our Constitution warrantless searches are presumed ILLEGAL! The rights of the citizenry to be secure in their homes, as spelled out by fourth amendment, demands that a search warrant, based on probable cause, be signed by a judge, before the police can come and search your home. Yes, there are exceptions, but they usually involve consent or exigent circumstances.
1) The location we are talking about has no real backyard. The back yard of the main house if the front yard of the rear unit and the rear tenant gave the police consent to be there. Just to make this issue more clear, here the case law that allows the police to secure a location will waiting for a search warrant. As you see, the law allows the police to actually enter the house and secure it, prior to the warrant getting signed. Again from the CA Legal Source Book.
C. Securing Premises Before Warrant is Obtained
There are two different ways police may, under limited circumstances, secure premises while they obtain a search warrant: (1) by actually entering premises which may be occupied; or (2) by staying outside unoccupied premises and preventing others from entering.
1. Securing by Actually Entering
If the police "secure" premises by actually entering while other officers are in the process of obtaining a search warrant, they are impacting the occupant's privacy interest, and the entry will be legal only if the police have, before entering, probable cause that contraband or evidence will be discovered inside, and exigent circumstances, i.e., a reasonable belief, based on the surrounding circumstances or information at hand, that someone inside will destroy or remove the contraband or evidence, before a warrant can be obtained, if the police don't enter. (Segura (1984) 468 U.S. 796, 811-812; Seaton (2001) 26 Cal.4th 598, 632; Bennett (1998) 17 Cal.4th 373, 384-384; Elizabeth G. (2001) 88 Cal.App.4th 496, Koch (1989) 209 Cal.App.3d 770, 782.)
. Securing by Preventing Others from Entering
The California Supreme Court has upheld a second method of "securing" premises, namely, by remaining outside an unoccupied residence and preventing others from entering, while deciding whether or not to seek a warrant. (Bennett (1998) 17 Cal.4th 373, 385-388.)
Since this type of "limited intrusion" impacts only the occupant's possessory interests, rather than his privacy, it can be justified with something less than probable cause, namely, with only reasonable suspicion that contraband or evidence of a crime is inside.
Securing premises in this manner gives the police a period of time during which they can continue their investigation and/or assess the information they already have and decide whether they can or want to seek a search warrant.
The California Supreme Court did not set an outside time limit for seizing premises in this manner, although it upheld a period of 18 hours in Bennett itself. The court emphasized, however, that Bennett had already been arrested and was in jail during this time.
Lastly, the U.S. Supreme Court has also endorsed the concept of police excluding a person from entering his residence for the time it reasonably takes to obtain a search warrant for evidence of any jailable offense--even a "Class 3" misdemeanor--at least where they already have probable cause for the warrant at the time of the exclusion. (McArthur (2001) 531 U.S. 326.)
Isn't that a bit hypocritical?
If any of these "activists" became ill due to their cigarette smoking would they accept medical care and treatment for that illness? Or would they just sit still and die from that illness, rather than accept the benefits of the research they are fighting against?
Seriously, if someone came out of the house and attacked protesters, the cameras would have come out and there would be pictures/video posted up on sites like this about it. The cameras weren't out however, because the "protesters" were acting like criminals, beating on doors/windows of a persons house while they were home with their family. As for the raid, apparently some people think telling the police to get a warrant and slamming the door in their face will make them go away. I for one am glad to see that the SCPD and other involved agencies did exactly that, obtained and served their warrant, and showed that so-called "protests" that are done to frighten families in their own homes aren't going to be tolerated in this county. Maybe there's still a chance we can get rid of this part of our local population and make UCSC into something that isn't despised by those of us who grew up here.
What is your source for those "reports"?
Also, these aren't "protestors". Groups like ALF have clearly demonstrated that they have left behind the normal democratic process or the path of nonviolent protest. PETA picketing outside of KFC is a protest, and I support it. Going into someone's house to threaten their family is an ATTACK. It's not a protest.
"somekid" mentions on Sunday evening that the police effort was linked to a protest at the home of a "vivisector". It's interesting because the Mercury news did not mention that it had anything to do with the incident on the west side until Monday morning, and the Sentinel did not mention it until Monday afternoon. I highly doubt that the police mentioned it to the onlookers milling about taunting them.
How did somekid get this information? Either they are involved with the group that attacked the family or they are a police moll trying to ferret out information on this site. The only people that knew what was going on were the activists locked up in the house, the family that was attacked (highly doubtful) or the police. Information on the family was not even mentioned on other sites until later on. Even then, much of the information on other sites is not correct. And if the people locked up in the house called friends to tell them what was going on then they did know that it was related to the incident on the west side and the surrounding circumstances, which means they were involved.
Makes you wonder.
I might agree that Safeway is probably worse to animals.
Good point, that is the most likely scenario. The group inside must have contacted others of similar mind. Otherwise how would they have gotten 70 people to show up?
Brad knows many of the people within this movement and somekid was probably one of them and granted Brad an interview.
Defend those that Defend Animals
by somekid Sunday Feb 24th, 2008 9:49 PM
This police presence is a response to a legal demonstration that took place this morning at the home of a known vivisector. Demonstrators were tracked down and this police presence is mostly meant to intimidate. Please show solidarity and support.
People outside the home were not there as animal rights protesters. When people see their block full of cops, or hear that a street is full of cops, people want to see what is going and monitor the police. Most of us know the police are not to be trusted.
Duh, that post was two hours AFTER the crowd on bikes showed up according to Brad's timeline! In other words, somehow this was organized as a "show of solidarity". A crowd of 25 on bikes didn't just show up by coincidence.
Also, the sad part is that by clearly linking the home invasion to a political cause, the posters on this website are helping the prosecutors to add charges that involve POLITICAL intent to just basic home invasion/assault charges, assuming this goes to trial. So, if you REALLY support these people, the dumbest thing you can do for them legally is to help firm up a political motive for the attack. Which all of these indybay posts are doing.
How did he know the specifics before the information had been released by anyone?
who here has witnessed a protest outside a home? they tend to involve fliering the neighborhood and chalking the sidewalk. People have gotten violent just because you are in their rich white protected neighborhood, where they are outraged that someone would have the audacity to educate their neighbors that they probably should keep an eye on their pets.
They talked to the police, to the neighbors of the scientist who saw what happened, and also, to people within the Lower Ocean neighborhood who seemed to support the protestors (those confronting the police, not the home invaders). I thought it was a fair article.
- one, it is very odd that someone was assaulted and yet arrests were not made.
Not that odd. There may not be enough evidence to arrest yet, hence the search of the house. This is America, you don't arrest without evidence.
-two, as stated above, there are many more examples of protesters getting injured rather than doing the injuring.
True, but these aren't "protestors". Going into someone's house to assault them is not "protesting". It is violent behavior.
- three, the idea that this was an alf action is ludricrous
You may have a point there, this may be some kind of "Black Bloc" faction that considers the efforts of ALF to be too moderate and nonviolent. Sorry, not an expert on ALF. But I do know there are animal rights advocates who are willing to hurt other humans in the name of their cause.
http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/ci_8360836?source=most_viewed
I'm someone who has participated in many, many political protests and this "action" was not legal, and it was not a protest. It was an act of terrorism committed against innocent people. Even if you believe that the home was occupied by "a vivisectionist" (and I don't) there were innocent children and adults in the house who are now victims of a terrorist act. Say what you will about people you disagree with, but innocent children need to be kept out of it. A home invasion is not a path to ending whatever it is that you don't like about this person's research. It seems more like a tantrum. If it was indeed a protest, why did the "activists" flee before the police even showed up? They knew exactly what had happened, and knew it was a crime, not a protest.
http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/ci_8370044
I thought about making this a "booyah who called it" post but really, when I read the ucsc email about Sunday's attack on the family of a professor any mood to joke about the circumstances just vanished.
I've never seen anything more disturbing in my entire time of being a student at UCSC and now an alumn. I've seen these things in countries such as Saudi Arabia, North Korea, China, Taliban Afghanistan, Iraq, and Somalia, but I never imagined actions of these students in intimidating and attacking science professors would so closely resemble the models of intimidation and murder that many Islamic extremist groups and authoritarian governments employ to retard the advancement of science, democratic representation, and women's rights in their respective countries.
There is a very disturbing trend growing in America. It is an anti-intellectual movement, similar to other movements in other parts of the world. It is a growing resistance to western ideals, and the enlightenment principles responsible for creating the modern western world. While the west has inflicted horrific atrocities upon it's own people and people of other cultures, the strides we have made in scientific understanding and civil rights are some of the most significant in the collective history of humans. Our history is filled with strong individuals and groups that have defied power, aggression, and violence to bring about social change for the betterment of all human beings, and with brilliant scientists who have collectively saved and bettered the lives of countless humans.
The students who attacked the family of a biomedical professor on Sunday in his home, and subsequently the students who tried to defend these attackers are in no way apart of this tradition. They represent a pre-modern way of thinking, a medieval and backwards way that our society has abandoned as crude and violent. These students represent the worst attributes of humanity: terror, intimidation, and violence.
As students of this University, their actions cast a dark cloud upon us all. Because of the nature and power of violence, their cowardly actions speak louder then our quiet appreciation of our professors. They send a message to all educators that any who disagree with their ideology will be targets of threats and violence. Can you believe this is happening in our country, in California, at a university?
I want to take this time to make a point, that extremism, regardless of which part of the political spectrum it falls on, gravitates towards violence. While these students who attacked the professor on Sunday may ideologically differ greatly with those who bomb abortion clinics, it is essentially the same type of thinking that motivates both groups to do what they do, obsess or fixate on one element of our society that turns into a more and more fanatical drive until violence occurs.
As people who attend an institution that was founded on the principles of rationalism, humanism, and the scientific method, we should all loudly and publicly REJECT this.
The only thing you and I can do right now is express as loudly as we can to both ourselves and our university how much we firmly reject the actions of these individuals. Remind your professors when you can how much you appreciate the work and dedication to both their fields, and your personal and intellectual growth. I would personally like to collect emails to the professor who was attacked as a show of support and gratitude for having to endure what's being thrown at himself, but I don't know his name or much about him as a professor here.
I really want the community to discuss this, because personally I feel this is the most significant event to happen at our university in my time here, and one of the most profound. I've re-enabled anon commenting to better facilitate this discussion if it will do so.
Has anyone talked to the people who allegedly were involved in this violent conflict?
If not wouldn't this argument then be very one-sided in favor of UCSC researchers?
also scmoderate, this is taken straight from the ALF's website. One of their aims is "to take all necessary precautions against harming any animal, human and non-human."
Sourced now, animal rights activism is non-violent.
Wow, I didn't realize trespassing and harassment was legal in the state of California, news to me!
Whatever, regardless of how you feel on the subject, how does anyone think that trespassing and harassment will further their goal?
I now have the urge to go vivesect some small vertebrates in retaliation...
Does violence really beget more violence, or does that not apply to animal "liberators"?
http://www.ksbw.com/news/15421003/detail.html
Read about the history of COINTELPRO. Read about the Denver Spy Files. The FBI are routinely used as a tool for neutralization of dissent and political violence.
Just because the police/media say something doesn't make it true.
Even the latest news articles state that the man confronted people near his doorstep, that's a far cry from "they knocked down my door and invaded my home."
Totally right, it's not like animal rights activists planted a bomb under a UCLA researcher last week or anything....
http://chronicle.com/news/article/2586/animal-rights-militants-say-they-put-bomb-under-ucla-scientists-car
You're doing a fantastic job of turning support away from your cause, keep it up!
Also, is it fair for the Sentinel to call them intruders? they never actually entered the home and it is only speculation that that is what they meant to do.
I can't say I am particularly in favor of home demonstrations in general, but now I am finding it very unlikely that any physical altercation was initiated by protesters.
Without physical documentation, of course, it is really all conjecture as to what happened. But, with the FBI involved, I woulld sympathize with any protester who would be very hestitant to release materials that contained their likeness, yaknow?
Yes it is, this was a private residence -- amid the yelling and general terrorizing they were probably told in no uncertain terms to leave -- it would appear they did not, thusly they were trespassing and thusly they were intruding.
They had no right to be on that property, and their behavior would probably count as harrassment and quite possibly assault and/or battery.
This was a stupid act, and considering the violent actions committed by animal rights activists in the past, I am apt to place the testimony of the family and neighbors before that of the "activists." And so will the public.
People who are law abiding generally don't show up at someone's personal residences in masks and proceed to harass them -- calling what they did a legal act is not likely to hold up -- especially among public opinion.
The story thus far:
First it was a home invasion. Then later it was said protesters were just on the porch and in the yard.
Earlier protesters initiated violence. Now one of the homeowners says that her husband "opened the door and 'grappled' with the intruders."
First it was reported that the gentleman was hit on the head and had minor injuries, now the sentinel reports he was hit on the hand and is OK.
I wasn't there, and I don't know, just like you probably don't know. But I think we're going to find a pretty ordinary scenario:
Protesters showed up for a home demonstration (to hold a researcher personally accountable for what she does in her professional life. You can agree or disagree with the tactic.) After knocking on the door and irritating and clearly scaring the family, one of the owners of the house came out to physically remove the protesters from their property. There was a struggle in which at least one person was hurt, followed by a chase. Very probably that's the simple entirety of the story.
So here are my questions: If a similar scenario happened, and there WAS an actual home invasion for the commonplace motive of larceny, rather than political, would the police have acted similarly? Have you ever has your home or car broken into? Have you ever been attacked? Have you ever experienced the police taking your case so seriously, they had an 11 hour standoff searching for evidence of the crime? If your house was burglarized, would the SCPD call in the FBI to help with the case?
If not, why not? If not, what scares the authorities so much about politically motivated actions, in general, and animal rights protests, in particular?
Even with commonplace murders relating to the drug business, even with well-armed, right-wing militias, even after the Oklahoma City bombing, why are animal rights and eco-defense movements considered by the FBI the number one domestic terrorist threat?
How many people have been killed in actions by animal liberation and eco-defense activists? Even with all the much shouted about "violent" actions of these groups? Last I heard it was still hovering at zero.
There is a reason that the current FBI campaign against animal and eco-activists is compared to the McCarthy-era Red Scare of the 50's. It's a new Green Scare. And we are supposed to buy, that these zealous kids are a very very serious danger to life and limb, right up there with Timothy McVeigh.
Or is it really about money? Is there a chance that animal rights and eco-defense movements will cut into the profitable business of cutting down the national forests, manufacturing chemicals that don't kill us (right away), and developing drugs on the public dime and then selling them back to us?
You and I might not share the same world-view, and that's okay, but take a critical moment to think about the machinations and motivations behind the scenes.
Just because someone wears a bandana doesn't make them an animal rights protestor. Just because people wear masks when media is around doesn't make them violent criminals. But too many people are trying to put two and two together when it isn't that simple.
Let's keep this conversation limited to what we KNOW happened. The last poster had a good point.
Whether an assault happened or not, does it warrant a raid by that many heavily armed cops?
Why is it that police can respond like that to an ALLEGED assualt when murders on native reservations still to this day go uninvestigated?
The same thing happened up here last week. 50-60 heavily armed SWAT cops came in to remove 3 of us from trees at a LEGAL PROTEST. Seriously. And the week before that there was s shooting on a nearby reserve and the cops didnt even come out to investigate.
Why are our actions so threatening to the police? If you doubt that legal protest is being targeted you have your head up your ass, because our movement is under attack and everyone on this site who is damning the protestors before an investigation has begun are playing into the hands of the COINTELPRO like attack we are under.
(And to be clear, "I wasn't there, and I don't know, just like you probably don't know. But I think we're going to find a pretty ordinary scenario")
That said....My theory is that Peter Young is responsible for this.
Think about the timelines and actions.
Peter Young. The guy who just got released from prison for ALF activity, just moved to Santa Cruz a month ago; close in date to when the harassment began. Peter gave a lecture the night before this most recent action occurred, and was present at the Riverside house raid. (And no, I'm not suggesting he was involved; I'm sure this is all coincidental.).
Protestations are flying around here that animal rights activists are non-violent, and that this is an obvious setup because ALF and animal rights supporters are non-violent. But as I research the topic, it appears that "non-violent" is a subjective description.
Look as an example some direct quotes from Peter:
"My faith in direct action has not changed, only my wish for the A.L.F. to go bigger and go for the throat."
"I don’t expect to regain trust in those elements of our movement that allowed Justin" (who testified against Peter) "to move through it unchallenged, those who looked away for the sake of harmony and those who allowed Justin to be present in large groups of activists (such as David Agranoff’s wedding) without showing him the door with force."
http://shiftshapers.gnn.tv/blogs/11139/Interview_with_Convicted_ALF_Warrior_Volunteer_Peter_Young
Peter goes on to credit musical groups such as Vegan Reich with having awakened his activism.
Peter states " "Hardcore taught me urgency. It taught me anger, and it taught me to point fingers."
Vegan Reich lyrics don't sound non-violent to me. Here's their lyrics to "No One Is Innocent:
"No one is innocent we all commit crimes, if you’re not guilty in their eyes, you’re guilty in mine. There are only two sides and a line that divides, if you stand in the middle you’re not on my side. No such thing as an innocent passerby you’re the enemy if you turn a blind eye. Not taking a stand while others die complicity your crime you will be tried. To bad if that’s cold there’s not time to be nice ain't playing a game it’s a war which we fight. In defense of earth’s future and all forms of life, against those in the way all is justified. And for what I believe I’m willing to die to free those enslaved I’ll take a life. Won’t shed a tear, I know I am right, and if I am caught, I’ll pay the price… cos there’s no excuse for letting things slide, in the actions of others or in your own life. If you don’t stand firm on the side of right you’re nothing but a waste of life so you’d better choose a fucking side and not besitting in the middle when the bullets start to fly. If you don’t make a choice it could mean your life for if you’re not on my side you’re a target in my eyes."
They're saying its war. Their willing to take a life. You better pick a side before the bullets fly. If you're not on my side, you're a target.
This is non-violence? This is the guy that just moved to Santa Cruz at the same time that coincidentally all this stuff started going down?
Info. on Peter:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Daniel_Young
Sooo...what proof are you looking for exactly? Considering you didn't witness the event yourself, it seems nothing short of time travel will convince you of the fact some protestors could be guilty.
How do you know Peter Young moved to Santa Cruz a month ago and that he was present at the Riverside House raid?
I didn't see or hear either of these two things announced or reported anywhere. Sounds like more disinformation to me.
"But Young, who said he moved to Santa Cruz a month ago after getting off probation, said he was present when police raided the Riverside Avenue home of the three UCSC students. He said he went to the house after hearing from friends Sunday that police were targeting the home of fellow activists, but said he didn't know about the home-invasion investigation."
It pays to keeps up with what's being reported on this subject.
It's part of a plot!
A 5 minute google confirmed 3 sources for me. You might want to do some searching yourself before tainting my info. as "disinformation".
Would Peters own Myspace page showing him as living in Santa Cruz be credible? http://www.myspace.com/supportpeter
How about the Trash Orchestra posting to him on that page and offering to help him with a bank robbery? (And they close by clarifying that they're serious in that offer:
"We want to help. Invite us to wade through teargas with you, or break through police lines, to create a distraction while you rob a bank to redistribute the wealth in the name of the Cause. Invite us to help tear down the walls of oppression -- understand that it is totally okay if you mean this literally."
http://www.myspace.com/supportpeter
And if those aren't enough...you need only finish reading the Sentinel article, where Peter himself confirms it:
"But Young, who said he moved to Santa Cruz a month ago after getting off probation, said he was present when police raided the Riverside Avenue home of the three UCSC students."
"http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/ci_8377430"
Disinformation....I'm the king of it. *sheesh*
And what is Peters comment when he was asked what he'd do upon release?
"NC: What are your plans after your release?
Peter: To be right back out there, doing my part. You'll never be able to count me among the ones who stopped fighting for change.
"
http://www.nocompromise.org/issues/28peteryoung.html
Disinformation...its all a plot...even Peter is in on it.
Tell me the full story, or don't tell me at all. This whole thing is misinformation. I, for one, would like to know more...because I know this whole thing is a half-truth at best. Indybay, you should know better. Or at least I would HOPE you would. For shame.
A brief reminder of behavior exhibited by or directly serving police:
*assumptions of illegal activity by activists who are outspoken (thought crime = real crime)
*speculation of activities in public forums
*implying a role in an activity of interest to stimulate gossip and generate intelligence
*taking public statements challenging the status quo as basis for suspicion
*unwarranted investigation into activists to protect those responsible for terrible injustice
*making tenuous, conspiratorial connections based on correlational evidence
You're guilty of each.
In fact I was in SF with six friends the day of the protest in question. I owe an explanation to no one. The last time I was asked to explain my whereabouts in the context of an ongoing criminal investigation was by police in the Santa Clara County Jail before I was sent to prison.
You're either a vivisector or the police.
Whoever is behind that computer, whether you wear a badge or not, you're an absolute disgrace for doing their work.
Peter
This was only the latest in a series of Klansman-like hate-crime attacks in Santa Cruz that have been going on for over a month, and not even the worst of them.
I doubt peter young was involved, it was way to amateurish, someone who just spent two years in jail after getting caught must be a professional!.. Though seriously, at least not dumb enough to do something like this that would wind him back up in jail again.
You don't owe me an explanation, and I don't think the scenario I presented happened. It was a sarcastic retort to point out the duality that I've seen in this thread. It seems to be acceptable to exonerate activists and propose that its a plot by the establishment, but unacceptable to theorize in the opposite direction. I stated as much in the preface to my post, and used you as an example of how easy, and how circumstantial it is, to theorize with no facts.
In reality, I expect the truth will end up being somewhere in the middle. I think the activists probably got over enthused and crossed a line by pounding on a persons house, and that the homeowner probably got defensive and overreacted by pounding on a protester, and then blows were exchanged by both sides. No proof, just my guess.
That said, a few replies to your post.
RE your personal life: I'm not sure what is personal about what I posted? I found it all in a quick google, and all that I found was posted on public websites. You yourself provided each of the interviews and quote, to promote your cause or raise funds for yourself. You also gave an interview on site at Riverside. How is any of that private?
RE my being guilty and having helped the cops: Not sure how I helped the cops. If you weren't involved, then I told them nothing. And again, if I found all of that information w/ 5 minutes of googling, and it's all public record, what exactly do you think I've given them that they don't already have? They already have everything I just found.
Re my being either a vivisectionist or a cop, and my being a disgrace: I've never worn a badge, nor operated on an animal. If by cop you mean because I pointed them at information, or a disgrace because I didn't support this cause? I can live with that. I'm not as ardent animal rights supporter as you are. If I'm a traitor for caring more about a human in my neighborhood being harassed and terrorized at their home than I am about a mouse being used for research, then I plead guilty.
Some people may feel that everyone is either fully on board with this issue or else their a cop/vivisectionist/traitor. I feel that the people going to the levels of activism on this issue that you and others are are in a minority, and that a greater percentage of people fall into a more moderate cohort of commitment. I am one of those people. I support legal dissent and protest, and I'm against unnecessary abuse of animals or research for items like cosmetics. But I don't support intimidation or harassment of humans either. I do view what's occurred on Feb. 11 and 24th as intimidation and harassment.
And finally, I'm not sure if your comment about being with 6 friends on the day of the 24th is honest and a funny coincidence, or if it's coy humor. But in either case, you might not want to be placing yourself with the same number of people that are being searched for in regards to this case. By posting that....you might be helping the police do their work.
It is not acceptable to engage in violent intimidation against someone you disagree with, and it is even more egregious that this was done at a researcher's home, drawing innocent family members and young children into a terrifying confrontation that should have never occurred in the first place. What's more, I find it especially cowardly that the perpetrators never took responsibility for their actions. The activist community in Santa Cruz has good reasons to be suspicious of the police, and many of us were quick to believe that the police raid was a fascistic response to a peaceful demonstration. Judging from the dialogue on this thread, it would seem that more than a few people still do. The perpetrators' failure to take responsibility (whether public or covert) for these acts has stained the community by taking advantage of our trust and our benefit of the doubt. How can we build solidarity without trust, and how can we trust one another if we don't know where we all stand? Santa Cruz, what ever happened to peace and integrity?
As a potential future academic, I am appalled that someone would find it fit to stalk and harass a university researcher in her home, for work that I doubt they fully understand. This woman is trying to help find a cure for breast cancer. You may very well disagree with the use of laboratory mice for cancer research, vehemently even, but there are much darker things going on out there, even at UCSC. The animal research that this woman does is highly regulated, and carefully managed to minimize suffering to the greatest possible extent. Nobody is pouring toxic cosmetics into anyone's eyes or punching beagles at that laboratory. There are better targets out there, so to speak, even if you think that these kind of tactics are a good idea.
Which they aren't, of course. What has this achieved, besides further tarnishing the reputation of Santa Cruz activists and anarchists, bringing the FBI into our town, strengthening opposition in the minds of everyday, law-abiding citizens against the animal rights movement, and forcing a very well-meaning scientist to hire security so that she and her family can sleep at night without worrying about being attacked in their home? It's not just morally outrageous, it's also mind-blowingly stupid. We're better than this.
Putting the issue of animal justice aside for a moment, it seems that somehow, in the midst of all this anti-science, anti-univerisity hysteria, people have forgotten that a functioning university system is one of the greatest assets our society has. Where else will you find people getting paid to do critical research, work that may save millions of future lives, without having to worry about short-term profitability, as in the corporate sector? Intelligent discussions abound as to whether UCSC is a functioning university by that standard, and I invite anyone with an informed opinion to join them. I say this as a graduate student, a tree-sit supporter, and a staunch opponent of the LRDP. Please join me in condemning these shameful acts, and gathering the collective courage to recognize that dishonest, violent tactics are not an acceptable form of dialogue.
Maybe you can come back to earth as a "research" monkey, a dog, or even a lowly mouse.
Yes, it IS bad to be a living being used as an unwilling TOOL for research, whose every movement and interaction is controlled by a researcher who chops your head off when your use is done.
You earned your shame by yourself.
Good, I hope you animal rights people keep it up, so the FBI can come through and send you all to jail, and people who actually do something useful can do it unmolested.
It sounds like you get your information from the Sentinel, but even they quit publishing that obvious lie in the last couple of days.
I find it interesting you mentioned a park ranger or officer of some kind was present. Did you notice if it was a National Park or State Park? They have been weaponizing the Park rangers, often to their own dismay. I mentioned a few months back, it would not be long that we start to see them helping the police.
Its important that you watched and gave us a great description of what happened.
Don't let people hang around here and post anonymously to every post just to antagonize. Ignore them and stick to people on ALL sides who have real dialog to contribute.
We should always watch the police to make sure they do not go over their legal boundaries. Regardless if it had been a drug bust or a bank robber, we as a community need to know how are police react. It has been cop watchers who have caught many police abuses from assault to murder.
It was not that long ago the police were beating up the homeless. I was beaten at age 14 inside the County building by a pissed off desked officer, desked for the very act of beating the homeless in their camps at night. I was not homeless, he was only supposed to watch me for 15 agonizing minutes. Many in the forums have asked we return to such days. Sad statement on the state of humanity. I guess it was a long time ago; I am 41. But the act of being beaten in a small room for smoking pot did not give me rosy feelings about the police. I understand they have a job. This by your account seems excessive. I don't know all the details and we may never know. Maybe the police were showing off for the FBI, who wanted to make sure they were not "Domestic Terrorists". Had they deemed so, their rights would have gone out the window.
You gave us a better picture of the incident then the Sentinel ever will and I as one appreciate your efforts.
The police have a place. Its to protect us and serve us in a legal and reasonable manor. No one really knows what happened at the house of the "Animal Researchers". Maybe they did try and break in, or maybe it was just an argument at the doorway. Maybe it was exaggerated, maybe not. I am sure Zack Friend will give us all the details...
I won't hold my breath. Thanks for being so detailed and giving us your perspective as a neighbor.
Tim Rumford
Do you all believe everything you read in the Sentinel? We really do not know what happened at that house.
We have one small injury NOT requiring any medical attention. Those details were sketchy at best, and from one side. I agree it was wrong to go to their house with Kids there. Unless they were protesting outside on public property. Even then I agree a better place would be campus, where you would still be writing posts in opposition.
This neighbor is simply painting a picture. He really gave very little of his own opinion, accept it seemed a bit much from his and his other neighbors perspective. We need to respect them too as neighbors and part of our community. When will you anonymous commenter's ever write anything and use your real name? Are you all that scared of your own opinions? Give this guy a break, he wrote what he saw. It had an effect on children there too. So if they were real criminals, and we don't even know they are yet, doesn't it seem excessive use of your tax dollars. Maybe a wee too many police?
People who are not guilty often don't allow officers in their house without a warrant, its called using your rights. I would never allow one in mine without one. Use your rights or loose em.
Tim Rumford
I have to love the armchair activists. Particularly if someone is protesting for animal rights, there will always be people who walk by and give "suggestions" for what one should rather be protesting - meanwhile, like most of you, they do nothing but sit on their fat - and I mean huge, digusting, meat-eating - asses all day.
Now I'm waiting for all those who cry, "What about the innocent chiiiiiiildren!" to condemn the police for their scary tactics. But they won't, because they're hypocrites.
If there were children in the Riverside house, I feel sorry for them. The adults in that house were responsible for the police being there, and were responsible for the police response.
When the police first went to the Riverside house there were only 3 of them. After getting a door slammed in their face a few more showed up. When the crowd started forming, that's when more were called in.
Do you even read all the posts here? Or do you just read the article, scroll down to 'post comment' and let the shit fly from your fingers.
Hey, those of us in the eco-defence and animal rights movements have a war happening against us. Wanna know what the main tactic of the cops is against us? Divide and conquer. Plant stupid shit in the media, send dozens of cops out without warrants to harrass but not charge people, and sit back as our own allies slice us open. That's why Peter meant about cops wearing more than badges. All the freakin armchair activists shooting their mouth off turning us against each other, playing into the hands of the cops. Do some f^%^ing research and educate yourselves about the Green Scare. This is a prime example right here.
Don't make me repeat myself for the third time.
Just for instance, Dario Ringach, a neurobiology professor at the University of California at Los Angeles who researched on primates was targeted.
This is something I've wondered about. You see, if you draw a flow chart of divisions of law enforcement spread across government, quite a few sectors have a mission largely focused on protecting rural parks, forests, oceans and enforcing laws related to animals and land use. It is a big crazy quilt of different agencies, and the ethical issue that arises is that they can be tasked with both protecting the land, but have a lot of urban-style policing thrown in.
You might think that animal rights activists who feel all frustrated could even decide to pursue a reformist career by becoming a game warden or parks manager, and doing a super good job by putting in extra effort.
These would include urban dog catchers (as profiled on cable's animal planet), East Bay regional parks police (who apparently end up busting mentally ill homeless, and drug operations, although some of those marijuana grows can be damaging), the Coast Guard law enforcement (which has a split mission of catching poachers, but also interdicting immigrants and drugs http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-o/g-opl/Welcome.htm ) etc. This was a decent article in the Chronicle today about forest rangers trying to catch people who illegally cut redwoods. If they weren't compromised into policing poor people squatting out in the woods, this would be a great avocation. My friend even said her mother's boyfriend was a trucker who had moved illegal old growth logs like this, so it must be quite common : http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/02/29/BA40V0KVJ.DTL
Touche. If there were children at the animal researcher's house, then the adults in that house are responsible for that situation. The adults in that house KNOW that being an animal vivisector means you have a good chance of getting negative attention, and even home protests. It happens all over the world, has for years, and every researcher knows it. It's a hated and controversial profession to be an animal torturer. No matter what happens to the activists in this case, those visits will continue, and probably intensify. They're obviously not that worried about their kids. Although if their kids have any compassion at all, they'll probably hate them when they realize the sick work they do.
You believe that standing outside someone's door and yelling is "immoral." I think your values are mind-numbingly screwed up and speciesist (yep, just as hateful as racism and sexism, although you ridicule it) that that seems worse to you than taking sentient beings against their will and hurting them for one's own selfish purposes. They did nothing to deserve the torture heaped on them but to be born the wrong species. Vivisectors daily practice immoral behaviors, and if the worst they get is people banging on their door every once in awhile, they got off lucky. Some day history will condemn them as the Mengeles they are.
Now stop faking it and pretending you know things that you don't.
I don't agree with you, so would you kindly provide your home address so that I may conduct a similarly peaceful demo?
Anyway, props to you for being able to be very close with both vivsectionists and animals rights protestors. You must be quite the diplomat.
I am beginning to feel myself though that I am playing into the divide and conquer tactics.
I am just following this issue because regardless of what happened, there is a story here about police response to dissent, and whether we get violent or not, we're all about to be treated as if we were.
I have no problem with people protesting animal research, I'm just saying that we need to have more perspective if actual change is going to be made. [S]tar's curt dismissal of my claim that the researcher's home was a poor target is, on the face of it, completely absurd. I'm not saying "you should be protesting Lockheed Martin/Burger King/Patriarchy/The War", I'm saying that stalking and harassing a university researcher, whose work seems to sit on the ultra-mild side of objectionable animal testing, on private property and at her home in front of her family, is an ethically bankrupt and useless tactic. Not only has it not stopped animal testing at UCSC, nor could it ever, but it has more likely turned a great number of potential supporters against the cause, people who may have been willing to listen before a small faction of immature pseudo-revolutionaries decided that it was time to take matters into their own hands and play anarchist dress-up, leaning on the support of an otherwise well-meaning community by refusing to take responsibility for their actions. Direct action has a time and a place, but at least at the point where I draw the line, this was not one of them. To that effect, I'd love to have a debate about where everyone else draws the line, which seems like a much more constructive discussion than being told to take my objections "elsewhere" (I thought this was a community site?) or being called a disgusting, meat-eating fatass (thanks star, that really hurts).
I find it interesting that there are those who criticize posts on an anonymous forum as coming from "armchair activists", as though they are prescient enough to be able to read the political history of a person from a few paragraphs of text. The jab isn't totally off-base in my case, though it's not accurate on the whole. Perhaps it speaks to a greater problem than that, though, which is that an activist community that cannot tolerate even moderate dissent and debate is bound to shrivel into a core of constantly bickering, holier-than-thou assholes. If you are concerned that there are too many people with little more than ideas, people that aren't helping your cause, perhaps you would be better off trying to build a broader coalition instead of rudely lambasting anyone with a difference of opinion.
Cancers in mice have been cured a number of times and guess what...the results did not translate to humans.
Plenty of drugs have tested safe in nonhumans and guess what...they were not safe in humans.
Why don't you go to your vet for your healthcare (or, I hope you don't have a vet, you'd probably abuse any animal in your sight).
Why don't YOU educate yourself? http://www.curedisease.org
"As a researcher I am involved with mutagenesis and cancerogenesis, two areas in which experimentation is fundamentally indispensable. I therefore know what I am talking about. And I say 'no' to vivisection above all on scientific grounds. It has been proved that the results of research with animals are in no case valid for man. There is a law of Nature in relation to metabolism, according to which a biochemical reaction that one has established in one species only applies to that species, and not to any other. Two closely related species, like the mouse and the rat, often react entirely differently"
-Gianni Tamino, Italian parliamentarian, researcher at the University of Padua, 1984
We all know that in a capitalist society evil is generally committed in the pursuit of either power or money, usually by those who have both, in an attempt to accumulate more. What needs to realized is that through rhetoric we are creating a power struggle and a dynamic of oppression that does not exist in reality. No one is a victim in these circumstances, they are all simply suffering the consequence of their actions.
Fact: had the researcher not been experimenting with animals, she would not have generated the attention of activists.
Fact: had the activists conducted a direct action protest, they would not have generated the attention of the police.
Fact: no one likes the police.
Unfortunately, over zealous activists beget over zealous law enforcement and we all pick sides.
It is my (informed?) opinion that experimenting on animals is unsavory. however, conducting academic research utilizing animal models is a valuable research tool that has been utilized to great success, and is, in many ways, the reason we enjoy the quality of life that we hold so dear.
As an undergraduate I had the privilege to work in an environmental toxicology lab at UCSC. Unfortunately the moral ambiguity of animal research got the better of me and I didn't last working with animals. I think a valid allegory might be to compare it to cleaning public bathrooms, it's gotta be done, just be glad you don't have to do it.
From amprogress.org:
"In some types of research, alternatives to animal use are available and are scientifically viable. These alternatives, computer models, tissue cultures and epidemiological studies have made significant contributions to advances in human and animal health. However, in other cases, these methods simply cannot be used as a substitute for studies in a living system."
I guess what I'm getting at is: this is the real world, and things are not so simple as wrong or right.
The good thing about academics is that they are generally willing to engage you in dialog, but you better come armed to the teeth with a fist full of citations or you'll probably leave with your proverbial tail between your legs.
Keep it up, research alternatives, but it also never hurts to keep in mind that a proportion of the animal research being conducted is being conducted in labs that simultaneously help those animals for whom you and I speak. Just ask the California Condor.
Keep the academics honest, terrorize the capitalists, to hell with the police.
Fool. I wish your ethics would catch up with your overblown liberalizing. Maybe you can be the next unwilling victim to be tortured. "Unsavory?" Sure - but it might yield some valid results that could help me and my family live longer.
Some cops bust into a house uninvited and take things away.
Everything else, sources disagree on. Stop assuming your source is right, and the other is worthless because you disagree with it. If you can't value what you don't agree with, can't take it for what it is worth, even if that's not much, you're not gonna get very far. And you're a dumbass.
Kids tend to protest. They tend to be overzealous. I'm one of 'em. IndyMedia tends to take our side of the story, 'cos we write it. We tend to support new and liberating social causes. 'Cos it's the right thing to do.
Cops tend to lie. They tend to beat people, and show up where they're not wanted. I'm not one of 'em. Newspapers tend to take their side of the story, 'cos then cops like them, and people can feel good about their cops and their newspaper. Cops also tend to protect the rich, the landed, the gentry, the powerful. That means punishing and oppressing people who try to upset the aforementioned. 'Cos that's what they get paid to do.
People do what they get paid to do. Or they do what they think is the right thing to do. Which is it for you? For the cop?
Clearly you haven't done your research on human experimentation and the questionable ethics thereof, or you probably would have cited the Tuskegee Syphilis experiment, conducted right here in the good ol' USA between 1932 and 1972. Which was perhaps more cruel than any of the Nazi experiments, especially considering it didn't provide us with a single piece of medically relevant information.
However, to say that Nazi vivisection provided some of the most relevant data for modern medicine is also an outright fabrication; because of the pseudo-scientific nature of Nazi experimentation, the vast majority of the collected data is entirely irrelevant.
Of all the "research" done on human subjects in Nazi death camps, there are two sets of data with contemporary medical applications: Human cooling and rewarming curves, as they apply to hypothermia, and dose response data for phosgene gas. Neither of these experimental results are the product of vivisection, and as such, the Nazis did not conduct "the most valid vivisection ever done", on the contrary, they inexplicably and sadistically tortured hundreds of thousands of victims with no justification whatsoever.
It might also be noted that animal vivisection was banned in Nazi Germany, so if we are going to draw wildly inappropriate parallels, it might be said that opponents of animal vivisection share ideology with the Nazis. But as I said earlier, I think that would be in poor taste.
However, for information on a myriad of valuable research that has been conducted utilizing animal models:
http://www.rds-online.ork.uk
... mind you, I'm sure there is nothing in that list that hasn't directly benefited you, your family, your friends, or your pets.
Yes, animal research is of questionable morality, and yes, researchers are constantly working on In Vitro substitutions. However, I think animal research has its place. Namely, in academic institutions, working toward the advancement of medicine, under the close supervision of review boards.
http://www.rds-online.org.uk/pages/page.asp?i_PageID=2096&i_ToolbarID=2
"These studies were without doubt, carried out in the most inhumane fashion and with utmost disrespect for human lives. Some examples of these methods included subjecting victims to life-threatening environmental conditions such as freezing temperatures and low pressures and intentionally infecting victims with organisms causing immeasurable suffering and sometimes death. Yet, the lack of ethical standards governing these studies created a chance for some unique data to be produced: these experiments were performed on humans, as opposed to via computational means or via the use of animal models, which often have limitations as to the extent they represent the complexity of human biology.
As such, they may be much more relevant to understanding how the human body works and thus, have the potential to contribute to life-saving research. For example, University of Victoria’s Dr. John Hayward cited cooling curves obtained from Nazi hypothermia experiments that described the rate of temperature loss of humans over time at low temperatures to design the Thermofloat coat, which reduces heat loss in capsized boaters. Coast Guard testimonies show that these coats save lives.
...
The discussion centers on three main questions, the first being, can the means justify the end? If we look at those involved with biomedical research today, much of this research is done with the goal to find cures or save lives. That too, was (at least part of) the motivation of the Nazi scientists. Indeed, the rationale behind the Dachau hypothermia experiments was to obtain data on human response to cooling to develop strategies to reduce Air Force fatalities resulting from freezing, a common cause of death for pilots who crashed into the frigid waters of the Atlantic."
http://www.scq.ubc.ca/on-whose-shoul...ntific-ethics/
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/03/393550.html
http://www.vivisectionfraud.com/1000docs.html
http://www.vivisectionfraud.com
“In times of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act”- George Orwell
Vivisection: -noun. the action of cutting into or dissecting a living body.
However, to argue that the Nazi hypothermia cooling curve is some of the most valuable vivisection data collected to date is wrong on more than simply a semantic level.
To paraphrase the NY Times: The experiments conducted at Dachau typify scientific fraud, and continuing debates over the relevance of Nazi Hypothermia research is moot; the research conducted at Dachau simply can in no way advance science or save human lives.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE4D7163BF934A25756C0A966958260
Although I've humored you thus far, I suggest you do some research into Godwin's Law/"Reductio ad Hitlerum."
Or, to save yourself the trouble, try this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum
And next time, provide some real references and insight into a situation before simply posting a kneejerk reaction of "you love Hitler" to any minor point you disagree with.
In the mean time, viva direct action, viva progress, to hell with the status quo, and thank you to independent media for bringing us all together (am I right?)!
This can be on the record or remain annonymos.
Thanks
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