ALERT: Drummers Being Hassled at Farmer's Market

no - the drumming is serious background noise that easily is forgotten, like a ceiling fan... that is, unless you have a hyperalert disposition.
I got there at 5:30 to buy a cabbage, and noticed there was no drumming, but I didn't ask. There has been a strong dry wind blowing from the east all day, accompanied by a drop in temperature.
It's ridiculous how far they're taking this parking lot thing. Everywhere I visit, Sacramento, Berkeley, SF, Seattle, I try to compare their main drags to Pacific street. I don't see the same level of enforcement, and other cities often have more functional stores to visit, such as more cafes and inexpensive delis. Seriously, if they could just add Pogonip (which is a city park I guess) or Henry Cowell's to the list of parks closed due to the budget, and send the wardens home, half the people they don't like in downtown would not be there any longer.

oops. The first sentence there was directed towards some jerk criticizing hippies with drums, but we were able to delete his negative vibes.

I have received several citations from Officer Auldridge over the last several months and I just thought you should get his name right as it appears on the bottom of ALL my tickets... It's AULDRIDGE, and thanks for the tickets.

I do have to admit that Officers Hoppe and Auldridge do clean up the downtown area of drug addicts despite their invasive behavior with our peaceful drum circles.

Viva La Revolucion!

http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/story.php?sid=64961&storySection=Top+Stories

This evening (Thursday January17) at 7:15 p.m. or thereabouts, I'll be playing tape from the police assault on the drum circle yesterday.

You can tune in at 101.1 FM or http://www.freakradio.org and call in at 831-427-3772 or 469-3119.

The show will be archived at http://www.radiolibre.org/brb/brb080117.mp3.

Earlier in the show I'll be playing interviews with LA ACLUster Peter Bebring on the Jones decision protecting the homeless there as well as an interview from jail of a homeless man convicted of "taking a gun away from a deputy" and sent off to San Quentin for 3+ years.

"oops. The first sentence there was directed towards some jerk criticizing hippies with drums, but we were able to delete his negative vibes."

dear CP and others. It sounds as if a comments was deleted. CP this is not directed to you, just using your remark to make a point.

It may seem all good when a negative persons comments are deleted, but for those of us who use this service and are against Censorship, worry when comments are deleted. In the past they were hidden so you could view them if you wanted. Now they just get censored, not just negative comments but MANY opposing voices are deleted, censored. We need to hear from those that disagree, they need the same amount of free speech we have.

Even the most popular writers here have had posts and comments censored when they go against an indybay agenda. Sometimes it may be NYC indybay, or other parts, but Santa Cruz indybay censors many comments making many posts what they think is balanced or... whatever.

My point is we don't want to preach to the choir. The hippie hating drum circle clown is exactly who we want to reach right? In order to enact change, we have to be able to change minds. And we may at times need our minds changed, were not perfect.

Censorship should be used for spam only, people selling Viagra or promoting sales of anything -- but dissenting comments must stand! We can no longer allow Indybay to decide who gets deleted. It makes no sense accept to make Indybay look better or promote an agenda. This is sleazy stuff that I am opposed to in all forms. If we want a nice chat with people who agree with us, then lets censor everyone who disagrees instead of those who simply piss off an indbay editor or their particular world view. If I write an article or post. I want to hear from those that disagree. Largely we do, but I have 100's of saved deleted comments from the last year. Many that were simply disagreeing. This is a free country and we are trying to preserve what few rights we still have. In order to do that we need to stand up for anyone who wants a voice, if you agree or not.
I hope many show up on Wed and support the drum circle, food not Bombs, and the Trash Orchestra. In numbers we can stand, alone we will fall. My health has been ... up and mostly down -- but I am coming despite how I feel. This is important because this law is so unconstitutional and will be used solely on the poor.

Tim Rumford
Posted at 3:45pm Jan 17th 2008.

..for your well written comment about the censorship here. I've been a victim of it several times. Just wanted to acknowledge your post, and agree with it, before it's removed which it most likely will be shortly.

"the drumming is serious background noise that easily is forgotten"

The drumming of a half-dozen plus drums carries very far and is LOUD. I lived a few blocks from the parking lot in question and had to deal with the 3-5 hours of banging on Wednesdays. Yes I lived downtown and that comes with the acceptance of a certain level of noise that comes with living there. But reasonable laws pasted by local government to stop excess noise that only please a few people is something that is generally accepted. To the drummers in disagreement with me, how would you feel if someone showed up in the parking lot and was singing Britney Spears songs at the top of their voice? Or if Britney her self showed up and did the same?

I'm sure that for non-runners, the marathon in Boston is a huge pain in the ass, snarling traffic, making tons of noise and litter, and making cross city travel impossible. However, for those that choose to live there, it's part and parcel of living in a community with a vital social life.

That said, asking around yesterday, neither the police nor the market had received any noise complaints.

The issue is one of "public space." You know, what used to be the Commons. Nowadays, it's what's left over after a municipality sells off nearly every square inch of usable geography to private property owners. (Land, we'll note was originally stolen from people who'd lived here a thousand years.)

Technically, there is lots and lots of public space, but 90% of it is dedicated to auto traffic, and you are not allowed use of it unless you are in a car. But what if you don't own a car, you ask? A good question. Why don't you own a car, hippy? Look at who can own cars and who can't and who gets fucked with by the police. Hmm...

The issue is not one of noise, but of another abrasive law passed to further push people out of public space in favor of cars. That is, if you are a car, you can sit in a lot for 3 hours, but if you are a person you have 15 minutes.

Crazytown. How did they pass this over our objections? What words did they throw about to get this egregious law through? The same words they've been using since Roman times to control people: Crime! Security! Safety!

I say fuck 'em and they're whole system of laws. I'd rather fight.

"Censorship should be used for spam only, people selling Viagra or promoting sales of anything -- but dissenting comments must stand!"

Dissenting comments do stand, but comments calling people stupid hippies will not. Indybay has an editorial policy. Read that last sentence again.

SF Bay Area Indymedia Editorial Policy
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2002/08/04/1395001.php

About Us
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2003/12/08/16643971.php

p.s. It is not your "right" to publish on Indymedia. Indymedia does grant or take anyway rights from people. We struggle together.

Please Don't Feed the Trolls : Wikipedia defines an Internet Troll as: "either a person who sends messages on the Internet hoping to entice other users into angry or fruitless responses, or a message sent by such a person." Los Angeles IMC strives to provide both a grassroots media resource as well as a forum for people to contribute to a meaningful discussion about local issues. Please, when posting comments, be respectful of others and ignore those trying to interrupt or discourage meaningful discourse. Thank you.

I'm so sick of the fucking cops just randomly choosing to enforce certain laws! It's time those bastards relaize they work FOR US. Did someone complain about the noise? No, it's just the hysteria of the parking lot ban spilling over. It's all about generating revenue my friends. The pigs have to justify their existence. What's really jacked up is that the city of Santa Cruz uses pictures of "colorful characters" on their tourist brochures, and tout the diversity that SC has to offer as a selling point to get people to visit our downtown. Then, ironically, they arrest and site the very characters they use to sell the city. I'm getting pretty fed up with this bullshit. Why can't they just leave basically law abiding citizenry the fuck alone.

I did a ride along with a SC pig one time (which every citizen should do once) for a class and the asshole told me straight up that he could basically stop anyone on the street and make up a way to legally take them to jail. Involve driving and you raise the stakes. He said 3 or 4 times throughout the night that he could pull any car over, arrest the driver, impound the car and "generate revenue for the city". He looked at it like a sport, typical of the jock mentality that carried over from high school- his highest education. I'm over it!

As I've said repeatedly (and sincerely), I much appreciate indybay's coverage of undercovered stories (and the forum it allows me).

However I believe it would give readers more confidence and the website more credibility if indybay censors specified the particular reason a post is removed (commercial, hatespeech, personal attack, etc.).

I find it particularly galling when a poster finds her comment removed, requests to know why, and receives silence. Or snide anonymous comments from people who seem to be indybay monitors.

Respect should run both ways. If indybay chooses to censor, it should indicate as a matter of course--even if only by a policy number--what policy is being violated. What say ye, indybay?

Just spotted a crowd of about 40-50 people (in several groups) gawking at firetrucks blocking the street in response to an alarm in the UCSC building at Cathcart and Pacific. I refrained from making citizen arrests, though it looked like folks had been there for more than 15 minutes.

A fellow FRSC broadcaster suggested that next Wednesday, drummers drive in a vehicle, and then drive it out every 14 1/2 minutes, with folks holding the space, to reoccupy it with another (or the same vehicle). Or perhaps a bike. This might be fun.

I don't think you can AT ALL compare the drum circle and people gathered around it dancing and eating and serving food to someone singing Britney Spears' songs loudly. Terrible analogy...

Santa Cruz Indymedia means a lot of different things to a lot of different people and we all have visions of how it should be. Indymedia volunteers, anonymous and otherwise, spend a great deal of time trying to maintain this website and others. Indybay is a very good resource and may appear to be a professional website, but it isn't. It is not fair to make demands from a small group of volunteers. Some people might find aspects of Indymedia particularly galling, but deriding Indymedia volunteers in comments is not encouraging, particularly when the article, promoted by the volunteers being ridiculed, is about Drummers Being Hassled at Farmer's Market.

When an Indymedia website volunteer either makes a mistake or interprets a comment to be a "flame" or "troll baiting," then the comment gets hidden. Comments on Indymedia that appear to be made to entice other people into angry or fruitless responses serve to undermine the goals and principles of Indymedia. There is not a secret formula or a perfect recipe for deciding when somebody is trying to engage in a genuine dialogue and when someone is trying to entice other people into angry or fruitless responses.

You can catch more flies with honey, which means it is better to engage people in productive ways. Some things can be improved while others need to be more or less accepted for the way they are. Know your enemies, they ain't your local Indymedia volunteers. Rest assured that volunteers are doing their best to maintain this website based on Indybay policies and principles.

It's great you like to make music and all, but there are more important fights out there. 3rd world countries are struggling against diseases that are being overlooked by the big drug companies because the people who'd use the medicine are too poor to buy it. These diseases are often studied in the university setting since they're not held down by a profit margin.

If only there were more places to study these diseases to help out the truly underprivileged, like a Biomedical Facilities in a parking lot.......but you gotta pick your fights, right?

"When an Indymedia website volunteer either makes a mistake or interprets a comment to be a "flame" or "troll baiting," then the comment gets hidden. Comments on Indymedia that appear to be made to entice other people into angry or fruitless responses serve to undermine the goals and principles of Indymedia. There is not a secret formula or a perfect recipe for deciding when somebody is trying to engage in a genuine dialogue and when someone is trying to entice other people into angry or fruitless responses."

Perhaps there should be, as the bias displayed by those with moderating authority is blatant. If Indymedia wants to be considered as something other than a mouthpiece for certain idealogies, as it stands, when Indymedia touts itself as "a collective of independent media organizations and hundreds of journalists offering grassroots, non-corporate coverage. Indymedia is a democratic media outlet for the creation of radical, accurate, and passionate tellings of truth..." It should endeavor to be such, as it stands, the post pmilitant typifies the sort of invective and rhetoric that generally remains unmolested while posts that run contrary to prevailing views (no matter how civil) seem to disappear without a trace.

It is why indymedia appeals to a small minority, and garners limited respect.

why do you read indymedia?

I enjoy listening to all points of view... I don't disagree with all that is posted on indymedia. I do find it sad that people don't care to learn about and understand opposing views anymore... To be crude, if the purpose is simply a mental circle jerk, what's the point? I suppose that's just the way politics have been going in America... People have become insular, not caring to interact with people who might disagree...

I notice on websites that lean left, I'm called a fascist, on websites that lean right, I'm called a communist... Perhaps people who post on these websites are just part of a fringe too far gone to engage in salient conversation with.

Several people here might have been around, or at least were active, at the Seattle WTO in Nov '99 when indymedia was founded. At the time, nobody had a blog, and personal websites were coded in simple html.
At this point, nearly everyone using original indymedia shared a true 'free speech' vision, and there were debates over whether taking out racist material was worthwhile, because someone could say that it is important for the community to realize that racists exist etc.

Since this era, nearly all the actual indymedia volunteers have strongly come to accept the need for some moderation, due to the physical factors of the computer medium. Basically, it is too easy for enemies who loathe indymedia to press 'publish' over and over again, and to write automated robot scripts to continuously upload pornographic pictures and jibberish phrases. There were certain famous trolls such as 'smashtheleft' who spent several years writing comments nearly 16 hours a day, and posting home addresses of activists he'd researched in this area. Clearly this needs to be blocked. Probably at times, you have seen the 'other newswire' section get filled with junk. The collective spent a long time negotiating with news.google to have indybay added to their crawl, by screening the 'local' section for profane material. This brings up hits to the site quite a bit

Go to one of the volunteer meetings. They hold them in rotating cities in the region. I was really floored when I saw them open the website in administrator mode, and it was apparent that antagonists come to crap all over the newswire, taking dumps so to speak, and how the volunteers have set up almost a 24 hour schedule to clean it up before most readers see it. Sometimes at 2-6am there is a break. They set up special handheld computer programs to assist in rapidly deleting bot scripts. There is no IP logging here, but there is temporary recognition of people posting porn. By the way, there aren't that many new volunteers during a particular year.

That said, some people (particularly the Santa Cruz sub-site) want to use the newswire as a discussion forum. I don't know of a comparable forum that isn't a blog of a group of friends. The decision to remove the 'latest comments' list deemphasized this aspect of the site, but it is still an important function. It's not good if legitimate users have their valid voice deleted, but it seems like comments can easily be mixed in with spam attacks.

Ok I brought up the censorship issue, due to seeing that a comment was deleted, but lets get back on topic and if people are interested start a post on censorship on Indbay and continue the dialog there. Just a thought. We need to get on topic and ready for Wed.

Thanks
Tim Rumford

"Ok I brought up the censorship issue, due to seeing that a c"

-No, it was an important thing to bring up, Tim, and I'm glad the Indybay editors left it up. As for the actual topic, there does need to be a recognition that not everyone in the progressive community agrees on some issues. For example, while not getting the media attention that the fragrance-free movement (of which I'm a part of) gets, the budding noise-free movement to enfranchise those who are sensitive to loud noises is growing and deserves representation on this board. Not everyone's ears can handle long hours of drumming, including some noise-sensitive homeless who have the right to be downtown as much as the drummers do. Some homeless have had to move from their traditional spots near Logos on Wednesdays simply to create space for themselves away from the drums.

This definitely makes sense, but let's really think about the positive and negative effects. Sure, there's some loud noise going on, but think of what a great thing the drum circle is for the community. Not only is there music, dancing, and lots of social interaction (meeting lots of new people in the community) but also Food Not Bombs serves there. Food Not Bombs is a loose group of people who get donated food (that would normally be thrown away), cook together, and serve to ANYONE who wants a free meal. In a country where this kind of festivity (market, drum circle, families and friends having fun together, food) is very rare, it is important for us to preserve it. Not to mention it is a way for us to resist against the silly parking lot ordinance :)

And about homeless people having to move from their normal hang-outs, that is just one small negative effect (which doesn't mean it's not important) But let's look at the big picture: the drum circle is in favor of creating spaces where anyone can gather, most of the homeless community is very much in support of this! I'm sure if they knew about what was happening they would support this public gathering space and be negatively affected by the parking lot ordinance!

Bottomline, there are plenty of quiet spaces in town. The Parking Lot ordinance is not about protecting us (it will not fix the root of the crime problem) and it's not about helping the community grow in a healthy way. It is just another way to commodify every single action of our daily lives.

This is one of the joyful events that shows that we are not all being turned into robots. We should do what we can to keep it alive.

Thanks to Coral Brune (photographer), Becky Johnson (producer), and William Torpey (technie), video documenting police harassment at the Drum Circle is now available at the website addresses below.

Becky Johnson, after her comments were recently deleted without explanation on indybay, posted the following on U-Tube:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"HUFF presents

"The Day the Music Died" mm SCPD roust of the drum circle from parking lot #4
Jan 16 2008 Santa Cruz, Ca.

Robert Norse provides commentary as Sgt. Dan Flippo, Officer Aldridge and two other SCPD one by one shut down the drummers and issue them warnings under Mayor Ryan Coonerty's new law, the 15-minute parking lot trespass law. Camera by Coral Brune.

Part One http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZYcAlWQYeA&feature=related

Part Two http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D50WK6fnFo "

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To catch the full flavor of what's going on, go to the last third of the Thursday 1-17 Bathrobespierre's Broadsides Free Radio Santa Cruz show [http://www.radiolibre.org/brb/brb080117.mp3.] to hear running verbal commentary.

I'm at a different vantage point than camera-ista Coral, but putting together my radio audio and Coral's video gives a fuller picture.

I believe someone else was also videoing, but I didn't catch who.

Apologies to Officer Auldridge, whose name was improperly spelled in past posts. I'd give his first name, but the SCPD main office refused to supply it when I called them today.

For those who want to follow the discussion of Deleted Comments on Indybay.org/santacruz, I have reposted most of the relevant thread above at "Deleted Comments Discussion" at http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2008/01/18/18473304.php

The point here is to focus in this thread on the threat to Public Assembly with the attack on the Drummers (as well as Food Not Bombs and anyone else using the parking lots in a traditional peaceful non-vehicular way).

As of this time, the Deleted Comments thread is currently buried "below the fold" in the lower third of the indybay news section under "Breaking News". Since it is a current original and local discussion, I hope indybay monitors move it above the fold as they customarily do.

The strength of a publishing site lies to some extent in its willingness to tolerate if not address criticism.

Again my thanks to both indybay and all the contributors to both the deleted comment discussion and the current Public Assembly Defense interchange.

"We'll drag every shopper over from the market"? And "tie up every cop car in town"? This is the peace, love and understanding that your drummers circle represents? What a bunch of selfish jerks you people are. Shame on you for hurting this community. You have reduced a spirit of compassion and reconciliation to meanness and hate. Boo.

And what happened to your "victory" that you were crowing about last week, Robert? You know, when the cops went away without saying anything. Wasn't that one of HUFF's great accomplishments?

I know that guy in the picture. I watched him get kicked out of a store for shoplifting a couple of years ago. And you want me to come down and support him. Right.

Reviewing this thread, I was drawn to the Editorial Policy page. I have always wondered why some of my posts were deleted (hidden, really) and I think I better understand now. I must say however, that I still don't see why "stupid hippies" is not a "cogent and thoughtful analysis", while "fuck the police" is.

And it really seems like a "democratic collective", direct or representative, would give every single user an opportunity to influence editorial policy through a vote. But maybe I don't understand the term.
I know, I know. I just annoyed some editorial board member.

Go ahead. Delete this post. Chop off my head.

Not every one is a pacifist in this knee-jerk little podunk town.

Sometimes when people get tired of being pushed around. the people push back. And there are more of us. A lot more.

And for us, it isn't just some dumb public service job. It is our very lives.

Nice attitude there, Mr. We Didn't Start It! No worries. After you've run out of money and mom and dad finally kick you off the family welfare, you will be in a dumb public service job. Seeing as how you probably won't have the training for anything else. Maybe you could be a meter maid, eh? All in good time.

If this town is so Podunk, what brings you here?

Grew up here. 36 years now.

The usual dismissal from people who believe that all who resist the insanity are 20 year old spoiled college kids.

And yes, this is a small town with small small minds.

Whoops, double posted that last one. Sorry Indymedia!

By the way, Mr. We Didn't Start It, you did. That drumming is annoying and childish. And there really aren't that many of you. Most of us townies in this Podunk little town that is so beneath you dislike that scene. And the cops, who I understand are also not pacifists, will no doubt make this clear to you in the coming weeks.

Good luck!

I encourage folks to ignore trolls like Sum Dim.

Better to spend time informing musicians from other communities, news media, folks with video cameras, and other folks who want to support the right to restore traditional public assembly spaces.

ACLU observers are likely to be there next Wednesday, though I wouldn't expect much from them. It would be helpful to have researchers offering assistance in considering a legal challenge to the law. Call 423-4833 if you'd like to help.

I remind folks the Know Your Rights forum is coming up tomorrow at 1 PM at Cooper and Pacific. It's not just at the drum circle where people are being driven away from Public Spaces under color of authority.

Please phone Free Radio Santa Cruz (427-3772) with reports of what's happening or leave a message on the HUFF line (number above).

Again, I think the censorship question is best moved to the thread at http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2008/01/18/18473304.php where, it can be more specifically discussed.

Uh-huh. Apparently Norse defines "troll" as anyone who doesn't see things through exactly the same prism he uses. As I said Mr. We Didn't Start It, there really aren't that many of you. It's just you, Shoplifter Guy in the picture, and Robert, who hasn't won a single cause in his long career. I thought maybe he had a breakthrough last week when he declared victory over the police, but I was wrong, as was he.

Be careful whom you decide to not be a pacifist with. You might be surprised at how big the law can be in this Podunk little town!

Methinks that a significant proportion of the local populace will think the police and city have overstepped the bounds of reasonableness by evicting the drummers from their circle. Might just be enough to get some of them to turn out and react. Of course, the police can just absent themselves, as they did the week before, until the crowds disappear, and play the waiting game... we'll see how it goes.

The city's very happy to harass the marginalized, they're less happy to wade into what could turn into a public relations disaster... typically, they handle what they perceived to be organized civil disobedience by more than the usual suspects with kid gloves.

Define "significant proportion". 5%? 10%? The proof will be in the pudding. And as far as the usual suspects go, we're missing Becky Johnson, Bernie Klitzer and Steve Argue. Otherwise everyone seems to be present and accounted for. Even Shoplifter Guy has showed up. You seem to be implying some groundswell that transcends this group. I've heard that one many times before. I'm skeptical.
Again, the proof will be in the pudding.

The January 17-23 Good Times "The Ticker" column (p. 12) by Chris J. Magyar has an article on the Drum Circle situation. Lots of quotes from police propagandist Zach Friend, not much from Wes Modes, Trash Orchestra Maestro. Nothing from the drummers or other victims of police harassment.

I can't find the article on the Good Times website. If someone does, please post the web address.

There are some major inaccuracies in the article.

"The market does have apermit to be there, obviously, but it was closed for theholidays on Jan. 2, so police considered the drummers unprotected by any permit..."

As I understand it the Farmer's Market leases the other half of the parking lot along Cedar between Cathcart and Lincoln. Even when it's going, they don't control or have anything to do with the part of Parking Lot #4 where the Drum Circle, Food Not Bombs, and the informal musical gatherings happen. So it's never been "protected" by a permit. Just by the First Amendment, community tradition, common sense, and the willingness of people using the space to stand up for their right to use the commons in a reasonable fashion.

"According to Zach Friend, Santa Cruz Police Department (SCPD) spokesperson...there hasn't been a single citation yet written for this ordinance."

Friend is inaccurate here. Even before the expanded law was passed in October, there had been at least one citation. A minor point, but it goes to Friend's credibility--which has been questioned before [http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2007/08/18/18441394.php?show_comments=1#18442450] .

"Before it was enacted, you could be loitering in a public lot and we would not have a reason to contact you, even if we believe you're doing something illicit. Now officers can approach and issue a warning based ont his ordinance."

Actually, police can contact people anytime they want. Of course, people can decline to talk to them. This is still true. Even if you're being arrested you can declined to give any information (though it expedites your booking to give your name and address, and then to say you have nothing further to say but would like to speak to an attorney).

This ordinance will only work if people cooperate with it. If folks decline to do so, police will have to spend an ordinate amount of time citing and jailing people for what really amounts to innocent behavior--or, alternately, blatantly engaging in a pattern of selective enforcement.

Another strategy (rejected by others, but which I'm still considering) involves making citizen arrests of tourists who sit in their vehicles or linger in the parking lots. If you witness someone in a parking lot who is not "parking or retrieving" a bike or car, you may call the police to demand a citation be issued (this is called a "citizen's arrest"). Enough of these would also quickly educate Mayor Coonerty as to the unworkability of his law.

The Good Times article also erroneously cites the warning provision of the prior ordinance (which is still on the city's website). The new improved expanded ordinance, however, removes the requirement that anyone be warned. The current ordinance can be found at: http://www.ci.santa-cruz.ca.us/council/ordinance/2007/17.pdf . The previous (now outdated) ordinance--which apparently Zack Friend either doesn't know about or didn't bother to inform writer Chris J. Magyar about) is at http://nt2.scbbs.com/cgi-bin/om_isapi.dll?clientID=20194673&infobase=procode-1&softpage=Browse_Frame_Pg under MC 9.64 .

Those planning to challenge the law should read exactly what it says. This includes police heavies enforcing it and fluffzine writers describing it.

"Still the impression got out there that the ordinance is a hammer against busking"

Obviously it is. Suzanne, a Drum Circle regular, described how on December 26th and January 2nd police deliberate broke up two drum circles, threatening to cite. Magyar should talk to the people involved.

Ha ha ha! Did you hear that Loco? Robert Norse, master of fiction, is questioning the credibility of the police! Ha ha ha!!! I can't wait to be arrested by Constable Norse while I'm hanging out in my car! Ha ha ha!!!

I've lived here for quite sometime. I shop downtown. I eat downtown. I love the "vibe" of our crazy, irreverent populace. I think we could do a better job with our social issues. It's great that when you go downtown you never know what you're going to see. I think there is no better place to live in Northern California than Santa Cruz.
But the drum players really annoy me.
That guy on the street, at Walnut and Pacific, with the droning same over drum beat, for hours, really annoys me.
Some people really don't like it.

Whatever, Gary G. As Thomas Leavitt will tell you, we don't work on the premise of majority rule in Santa Cruz. It's all about who makes the most noise. That would be Robert Norse and Shoplifter Guy, whose picture is above. They drum louder than you and that's that. This explains Robert's victory over the police last week and why they will never be able to enforce this silliness about protecting public parking lots and public space for the public. Viva la Norse!

Dim Sum think you can come up with arguments and debate points without having to attack the individuals who are posting.

Yes. You are a bunch of juvenile yahoos for banding together an assortment of anti-social "activists" who have done nothing but tear down people and community institutions for 20 plus years, and assorted shoplifters and petty criminals, to now disrupt another vital community institution, the Farmers Market. By the admission of someone else here, and the Trash Orchestra site, disrupting this market is an objective. That's not a personal attack. It's a statement of fact.

And that makes you selfish assholes. All twenty of you.

I hope that's objective enough for you.

Aw come on Gary, it's once a week. And it has many more positive effects on the community than negative ones.

The law is an attack on the right of the people to publicly assemble. It WILL be selectively enforced and with the recent police warnings a sure sign---moving along those who eat at Food Not Bombs, and who gather together with other NON-SHOPPERS. Its a removal of public space for everyone including grandmas with babies waiting for mom to finish shopping. It is a huge over-use of police to treat something that is NOT a safety issue. The sound of drums and the sight of homeless and housed people gathering together in public once a week NEAR the Farmer's Market is NOT a phenomenon which we want to give police the power and the mandate to remove from sight.

Anyone getting a citation under this law should contact HUFF. We believe we have collected enough evidence from the City Staff testimony during discussions prior to passage of this law to make a case that the law is unconstitutional. 423-HUFF

The person living near by pointed out that living downtown comes with some issues like noise. Thanks for making a reasonable dissenting comment that deserves dialog.

My take is this. One the level of sound has risen in protest, and will die down to its normal smaller collective when OUR right to assemble in the parking lots is restored. I am sorry it bothers you or anyone, really. But I will be joining in pounding on something because the amount of people will determine how hard the cops come down, or if they do at all, and could even change the minds of the talking heads in the City Council if enough people join even just by standing there. It will help muffle the music, really.

I assume you have chosen to live with this over the years and have not filed a complaint. Because had you, or even better, prior to the law, contacted the folks, particularly Food not Bombs in a reasonable fashion -- I would hope that they would, if enough complained, listen & consider moving.

The Farmers Market has had no previous beef with the Drummers. I know of no previous complaints from anyone. They have done this for yearts without incident in harmony with the market.

If this law is retracted, and once things return to normal... If the Market or people who live close by, which has to be few in numbers really want the circle gone and they ask in a reasonable manner, I would hope and perhaps even fight for them to move. Until that day comes, we have to keep up the fight, we need to assemble in numbers. We need to use the tactics that are working. We need the Trash Orchestra.

Remember -
Were not protesting for the right to be loud. WE CANT STOP NOW. They came up with a law for instances when no law is being broken, they will cite you when there is no complaint of noise, drunk in public, public nuisance, or the litnay of other laws they can use if your causing a problem. If you are, there is a law for it.

So I have to assume that no one has complained in the past. As I said, I would hope such complainants be made to the peaceful group and not the Cops.

So we are defending our rights against a bogus law. Ryan Coonerty was answering my e-mails in a very timely fashion until I asked him to name one thing someone could due in a public lot not covered by some other law. There is nothing. Its a grab of our rights. So we have to bang the loudest in numbers to make a statement. We have to defend our rights and right now this is been the most effective way to do it.

This law severely effects the disabled.
My mother is severely disabled, an X merchant who lost everything in the quake. She is very aware of the power the Connertys have had in the de-shaping of downtown, without mentioning any of my own opinions. She refuses to come downtown and park in a lot, due to this law and also refuses to shop in Bookshop Santa Cruz because of the sleeping ban. She wants the ability to rest in the car while others continue seeing a movie or having Coffee. If she gets in too much pain, she cant sit in her own car and rest? That is fucked up. Its wrong! It takes her 10 minutes to get her electric chair out of the van.

I have neurological and an autoimmune issues from Encephalitis as well as Chronic pain from a severe spinal injury. I need the right to rest in my car to go downtown. So now we have to sit in our cars in fear? I am legally considered disabled.

I hope even the annoyed will join us, not because we want to the right to Drum anywhere and everywhere, but because this law is unconstitutional, unethical, unjust and just another grab of our rights to use public space. We now live in a world with Free Speech Zones. This is not about the right to play loud, its about one org, or one activist or drumming. It is standing up against an unjust law that has zero to do with noise. Please join us!
Even the most republican right minded person should stand against this law. If every , left, right, sideways person did -- we would not need to be loud. Until then, play we should play on!
Tim Rumford

Ok Lalala, what are the positive effects?

And that guy on Walnut and Pacific is there every night in the summer. I do know that many people who live in the Palomar are not very happy with his droning drum beat for hours each night.

I'm not a big drum fan myself. Tamorack--the drummer Gary G. dislikes--doesn't turn out my favorite sound. Nor does the Metro, blasting classical music onto the sidewalk to "deter the riffraff". Nor do the motorcyclists blasting their way through the downtown.

But it's not about unreasonable noise. There's already a code section to address that It and the "Move Along" law are already freely used by merchants, residents, and their cop stepnfetchit's to "move along" musicians and drummers they don't like.

The Coonerty Parking Lot Panic law is a sweeping attack on the freedom to assemble (and yes, "loitering" is assembling) in a town where that has traditionally been valued and protected (though significantly less so for the poor, the homeless, and minorities). Now the entire community has its right to relax in or outside a vehicle in a parking lot--even if they've paid to be there--eliminated. The wording of the law doesn't even give you 15 minutes, but only 15 minutes to retrieve and park your car.

This is an abuse of power cooked up by a half-baked city attorney's office, power-seeking SCPD, and narrow-minded Parking Authority which ignores Constitution, tradition, and public opinion in imposing its latest edict.

As I've said before, the law only "works" in eliminating public space, if the public cooperate. Don't.

There's also some recent comments of interest at "Support for Evicted Market Drummers (1/9)" at http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2008/01/08/18471055.php

I believe many rights have been lost in SC/CA over the years. Including my right to smoke in a private business that services beer and my right to buy take-out food in a plastic container. It's funny like that isn't it? But I digress...

More to the point, it is clear to everyone that the "15 minute rule" was passed into law by the town in order to make life harder for an already hard life of a person without a house. I personly believe that the there is no homeless problem in downtown. (Yes society has failed these people and together we need to help them through private and some government programs in order to help people in this situation, but in turn I doubt the homeless cause any real negative effects to downtown SC including crime or loss of business cause by there presence).

But, now this law being used to remove the drum circle? Why isn't the farmer's market sticking up for the drumming? Why doesn't the farmer's market lease lot 4 in order for the drum circle to do it's thing? Why does the town of Santa Cruz run parking lots in the first place? Is it really the proper role of a town to run so many parking lots? Just look at the downtown map and see how much of the town owns? I would personally be in favor of converting the farmer's market parking lot and lot 4 to real public space (a little less asphalt to start would be nice). In turn sell off the rest of the parking lots and get out of the business of running the parking downtown.

Drumming isn't the issue? Then why is this thread titled "Drummers Being Hassled at Farmers Market"?

Sure it's the issue. The drummers have co-opted the scene at the Farmers Market. They have essentially forcibly and disproportionately superimposed themselves upon the market activity, in the process diminishing the experience for many.

And before anyone goes calling me names like capitalist pig, blah, blah, blah, remember we're talking about a Farmers Market people. Not Saks Fifth Avenue.

The drummers are selfish and destructive. As the Trash Orchestra guy made clear, they're certainly not pacifists or any such silly thing. They couldn't care less about the farmers or their customers. They should go play in front of New Leaf. That corner has already been ruined beyond repair, so a few more drummers really won't make it any worse, I suppose.

Just a reminder- that if you want to have your voice heard by a packed room (and your face seen via Community TV live feed). The Santa Cruz City Council will be meeting this evening (Tues 1/22/08) at 7pm across from the SC Civic Auditorium. The meeting starts with public comment on issues not formally on their agenda. Exercise your rights! SPEAK OUT!
See you there.

There are actually two Oral Communications periods today under Mayor Coonerty. One is 10 minutes long and starts at 3 PM (City Council Chambers 809 Center St). The other usually starts at 7 PM (unless delayed) and now last 20 minutes. Folks are only allowed to speak for two minutes--on any subject not on the current agenda.

Organizations can get more time--or have been able to when making requests in advance. In the past when Reilly was Mayor, she "granted" five minutes.

Also of note: Item #17 has appointments to the Downtown Commission that recommended the Parking Lot Panic law (on the afternoon agenda) probably shortly after 3 PM Oral Communications. Folks opposing the law can demand that potential appointees make their position known on this law and the other anti-homeless laws downtown (no dogs on Pacific Ave., no sitting within 14' of a building, no performing for donation within 10' of a business, severe peaceful panhandling restrictions, all police priorities re: bike tickets for going the wrong way on Pacific Ave.).

The only member of the Downtown Commission to vote against the Parking Lot Panic Law this time, Sheila Coonerty, is not seeking reappointment.

Note that there seems to no interest in the Measure K Commission, which still has a vacancy (Tony Madrigal's). The Commission was hobbled by a lawsuit cooked up in closed session by City Council last February, sold out in court in May, delayed in its final appointments until September, and striped of meaningful meeting time (next meeting scheduled in June).
Contact Chair Larry M. True at 460-1220 or Vice-Chair Eric Rice 427-2177 459-4530 to demand they make Public Records Act requests of the police department to track violations of the Measure K ordinance--requiring lowest enforcement priority for all marijuana use, sales, cultivation, etc. See santacruz indymedia buried story at: http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2007/11/14/18461217.php .

I don't understand, Robert. Aren't we trying to stay on issue? What's this about Measure K all of a sudden? The issue is drumming and how annoying it is. We really need to ultimately find a way to make it stop. I hope the Downtown Commission will have new appointees who accomplish this. Hurray for City Council! Hurray for Ryan!

Hey Gary-Not only is there music, dancing, and lots of social interaction (meeting lots of new people in the community, I would never know Bill if it weren't for the drum circle...the guy who rides around on his bike with the buckets for panniers who goes around singing "keep it rockin in the free world!) but also Food Not Bombs serves there. Food Not Bombs is a loose group of people who get donated food (that would normally be thrown away), cook together, and serve to ANYONE who wants a free meal. In a country where this kind of festivity (market, drum circle, families and friends having fun together, food) is very rare, it is important for us to preserve it, don't you think?

Just to let you know, I totally understand the noise complaint, but it just seems a little nit picky. I would definitely understand if it was everyday, or right in your front yard, but it's not. It's a couple hours, in a public space, and only once a week. :)

OK, let's BOTH take the gloves off, oh Dim one.....

What have you done lately to make YOUR community a better place? I mean besides spending 2 minutes writing ignorant, biased claptrap.

Your "statement of fact" was opinion! I guess in your little world, if you see it in print, it MUST be true!

The drummers do not drum to disrupt the market. They are freely expressing their musicality. YOU are free to do that as well, but now you are not free to do it in any city parking facility. YOU cannot run into an old friend and have a conversation longer than 15 minutes. It is YOUR rights that are being taken away one by one. I am not selfish, for I am protesting for YOUR rights to freedom of expression as well as my own.

I am a middle-aged woman who is not homeless, or a shoplifter. I am a local business owner for over 25 years. I was not a criminal until the city council passed this law.

I keep hearing people referring to noise, and drumming on the mall etc. This is not about drumming, its about the new law that will effect everyone who ever rests in their car. We are using this drum circle and Food Not Bombs area because it was the first thing the cops did in numbers using this law. This shows us that this law is constructed to be used when no real law is being broken.

Their is a law for noise, their is law for being a nuisance, their is a law for being drunk, stealing, or violating someone else's rights.

They came up with this law to be able to run the homeless around like rabbits because there is no constitutional way or current law for them to do that. If the said people are breaking the law, causing a nuisance THERE is a law. Making the homeless move around, only pushed them to other areas. Its not a method worth using only a huge waste of resources and is plainly wrong.

I have only heard noise complaints here. I have not seen a post of anyone standing up for this law and why.
The real question is - are you for or against this law? If you are against it. Lets get some real dialog and let us know why. Please I want to know the reasons.

For all of you that complain about noise, have you ever complained beyond using internet forums? If you did action would be taken. Again, i would hope you would first try and speak to the group or person before you call the cops.

This is a protest. Music and drums and people are a way to protest. It worked when they did it before.
It has worked traditionally.

The Trash Orchestra broke the 15 minute law for hours as I understand without incident during practice on 20th. Thats why we need them. If this law was gone, those that feel the drum circle should not be there, could use dignified ways of trying to have it moved. That is the way things should be done in our City. No one complained until this issue came up.

I grew up here. I have walked this mall for 25 years. The days when the Mall was successful , and again my mom was merchant for many years and my sister is now, was when Street Music was everywhere, and the Copper house played daily and people danced in the streets. The Cops were horrible back then, but aside from that separate issue, downtown did better biz, had a real culture to it which is being ripped away at a stunning rate as well as our rights and use of our own public property.

The more your treat the poor in undignified ways, the more undignified they will become.

So i would love to hear from the people complaining about noise. Explain what it has to do with this new law, and regardless of your stance on loud music, are you for or against this new law? and why? Before you answer remember the law has ZERO to do with noise or loud music.
thanks
Tim rumford

Dear editors,
Although I understand your stance against trolls, I still disagree with some of the things you delete, or even ban people from posting on far to the right issues. But I thank you for allowing us to discuss it. Prior to my undeleted comment, others were deleted when I ever brought up the issue. This time you allowed it which shows a willingness to let us have some dialog on the issue.

I hope people will use the thread I think Robert started and talk about the issue there. But I do appreciate your work, and just wish these comments could be hidden instead of removed, so users can choose to view them or not. It seems, form reading a comment that sometimes an editor might delete something that really goes against your policy, because your non profit etc. by his own choice or by mistake. I hope you at least continue to talk about these issues at your own meetings as well, and allow us to do the same. Again, thanks for allowing it this time. Please let us continue.

I also appreciate you often fixing my errors in HTML etc. as I am disabled and often cant see the screen well. I am photosensitive. You always take the time to do great work when I screw up. Thanks!
Tim Rumford

"So i would love to hear from the people complaining about noise. Explain what it has to do with this new law, and regardless of your stance on loud music, are you for or against this new law? and why? Before you answer remember the law has ZERO to do with noise or loud music.
thanks
Tim rumford"

The "15 min law" was made to harassing the homeless and from my previous post you can note that I believe the law is non-practical, worthless, and wrong. (much like the anti-party law past a few years ago.) And when the drum circle becomes too noisy, classic "noise laws" should be used to remove/tone down the drum circle. Why are the police using the "15 min law" on the drum circle? Most likely because it is more practical for them to in force the "15 min law" rather then a noise law. But of coarse that doesn't make it right.

This discussion of this problem has an underpinning issue of use of public space. The town owns a plot of land and has decided through the local government that this land (owned by all of us) is going to be used only for parking (except though permitting for other usages). This seems ok because the majority people seem to want parking and expect the town to proved it. A small group of people decide they want to hijack the land for their own use. That is the conflict you are creating at the drum circle.

We the people decided through local government that this plot of public land would be a parking lot. A group of people trying to convert it to something else is now denies our rights to the lot. The fact that in the process of your hijack you are making a large amount of noise just makes it all the more offensive. Have you tried to get a permit? Have you tried to convince the public that the parking lot should be something else? Could the farmers market expand into an area that would be used for public gathering? That would be the right way about doing things.

Laws are put on the books and used all the time to solve issues sideways. Think Al Capone and tax evasion. It's a common practice to use laws to accomplish agendas other than what they most obviously address. Government and private individuals, plaintiffs and defendants, all do it all the time. It's a smart use of the system.

Asshole drummers on Pacific or at the Farmers Market were not the intended primary beneficiaries of free speech rights. They just squeezed in with that loophole. That's how it works.

So it's completely fair that the City would use this law to get rid of the asshole drummers and HUFF, all in one fell swoop, to give the 54,981 out of 55,000 citizens their parking lots back. For parking. Only.

Hey BG-the thing with that is that people should not have to get a permit in order to gather in PUBLIC places. If it's really a noise issue (which, to me, is the only justified reason to make this drum circle illegal) then we should be able to communicate that! For example, if a farmer came up to the drum circle and said that there are people who simply can't handle the noise, I think the majority of the people playing music would be responsive and move to another area out of courtesy. But as of now, it's not really about that.

You're suggesting that a polite request from one farmer would cause the drum circle to move on. But an ordinance, vetted before the community at council meetings, past by the City Council, and enforced by the police with repeated visits and arrests isn't having that same effect?


I think not, but I'm happy to give it a try at next weeks market.

Should one or two merchants or farmer's market folks have a "heckler's veto"? The question is whether the drumming or music or assembly is engaging in "unreasonable noise". See "Ordinance on Unreasonable Noise Requires Pretty Loud Volume for Violation" (the eleventh comment down under http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2008/01/08/18471055.php)

Folks not afraid to give their name on this website feel differently:
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2008/01/09/18471162.php?show_comments=1#18471410
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2008/01/09/18471162.php?show_comments=1#18472427

Should a polite request from one offended secularist, for instance, remove a group of people praying in the parking lot assuming it's not blocking traffic? Or a request to remove a square dance from the empty top of the River St. Parking garage?

Obviously not. Frankly, it's really nobody's business if a group of people is engaging in innocent legal behavior in a parking lot. But Coonerty's Council thinks it's the police department's business, the Superior Court's business, and ultimately the jail's business. Lots of nasty monkey business with the Coonerty Council.

Under the new law, all these activities and even reading a book or changing diapers in your own vehicle are illegal. That the Council was ignorant or arrogant enough to pass such a law means people should passively surrender the First Amendment right to assemble? Apparently the community assembled last week thought not.

Just being there making no sound at all is now against the law. It's not about drummers, it's about any kind of public assembly in a parking lot or garage. Verbotten under the Coonerty Parking Lot Panic Law. Unless and until people stand up for their right to use these public spaces as they've been traditionally used. As we did last week.

Let's do it again.

For more detailed background, check out "Support for Evicted Market Drummers (1/9) at http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2008/01/08/18471055.php

To keep current on the issue, scroll ahead to: http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2008/01/23/18474460.php.

Yes, I am serious, if you'd like to talk about it in person I'd rather do that. But basically, if you really think that the ordinance was created by our community, that's fine. If you think the city council represents our entire city that's fine, but I don't. I didn't vote for this ordinance, so my values and wishes aren't being represented and I know many others think the same. Most students and people living here who I've talked to about this ordinance agree that it is a silly law, and was not created out of the best interests of the community. With that said, the people who gather in that space (myself and others) feel violated because of this law. It would be very different if people were able to communicate their wishes and needs openly. Many of the people who gather there do so because it is a really convenient space, very open and social...not in order to annoy people and hurt ears. If someone really can't handle the drumming, they should talk about it.

However...I think complaining about the noise is silly. It's not like the farmer's market isn't in an open, loud place. It's not in front of an apartment complex, or hospital, or convalescent home. With that said, the noise complaint is pretty crazy. But my point is, is that because we have a relationship with the farmers and other people who live in this town, I think they would communicate their needs with us and we would be responsive. That's all.
eg. : We have a lot of elderly people shopping at the farmer's market who physically cannot handle the noise, could you move to a park or another public area? Or maybe play for a shorter amount of time? Thanks so much! We appreciate you.

But no, this doesn't happen, at least not whenever I have been there.

I don't think the ordinance was created because of the noise. There's many factors, but I view it as just another silly ordinance that doesn't fix the ROOT of any problems, and was created in order to further repress activities that don't involve spending money, and to further criminalize homelessness...upon many other things.

My comment is simple. Drum circle should get a permit since they are changing the use of the public land for many hours. The parking lot is a parking lot, that is what the people decided and when you forcefully take it over for your own personal desires that wrongs the reset of us. What would you say to if a small group from SC all decided it was a good community event to park a few dozen cars on the grass in San Lorenzo park. In the process blocking it's community decided use for our own entertainment. Then on top of it we decided to honk horns in some kind of "musical" way for 4 or 5 hours. That is what you are doing at lot 4.

Robert, I wish you would make up your mind as to what you want us all to discuss here, since we're all trying to do your bidding in this regard. First this is about drumming, them it's not and now it is again. Get with it man.

In the vein of a "heckler's veto", remember, we have a whole section of ordinances created because you, Becky and five of your closest friends can't be bothered to grow up, and therefore need to be told once an hour how to behave in public. You are under the impression that if you just shout down the entire community, it will give in and abandon these parking lots, and that you can then do whatever you want. Your heckling isn't going to work, friend. I'll put money on it that you'll fail. Again.

I think the cops will let you change your diaper in Lot 4, though.

My feeling is that the community encompasses all spectrums of people living in Santa Cruz. And I feel that that community did have an opportunity to voice opposition to the parking lot ordinance. Many people did, both in support and opposition.

I have the feeling that the "community" that is now voicing dissatisfaction with the ordinance is a much smaller subset of the overall community. And while their/your feelings are genuine and valid, they do not represent the opinion of the larger community.

I disagree with your assessment that if someone just nicely asked the drummers to be quiet or move on that they would. From recent action, I don't see that the police have arrested anyone for drumming. They arrested someone for having an outstanding warrant and smoking pot in public. (And watching people smoke pot isn't something I want my child watching. I see it done regularly in the drum circle area; it's a reason I stopped bringing my kids to the market.)

Different communities, different values.

Comment available at the more current thread:

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2008/01/25/18474803.php?show_comments=1#18474910

That makes sense, especially not wanting your children to be exposed to drugs. I can agree to disagree about the ordinance, and about what the community is and wants...I would love to talk with you about it more, however not through computer screens :)

And BG- I also understand your perspective, however I don't see the whole "honking and cars on the lawn of a park" as a valid analogy whatsoever. However again I'd much rather converse about this in person.

But bottomline, public space is public space. Whether it's a park, or a "tree/drum circle area", or a natural reserve, it should be used in order to gather and celebrate community, especially when this kind of thing is so rare now, with every, single aspect of life becoming privatized (food, home, land, entertainment) Rights are being taken away all in the name of "safety" and "protection", but this is nothing new...I just think it is wonderful that there are still people in town that are thinking about it and even challenging it.

Goodnight everyone!