October 5 - Day of Mass Resistance

The Revolutionary Communist Party is more than just a member of this coalition, their members are largely directing these actions, as was the case with Not In Our Name. It is inappropriate to fail to mention this in imc coverage.

We can See what all this protest has goten us . ( in the U.S. )

So when will it turn in something real some -thing - lasting , I live in Hungry where do you live .

The rest of the world fights for freedom . It can't stop till the people make it stop - not by yelling ( forgive my spelling ) .

How will throw the first stone ?

Every Students Against War event and CAN event should be called out with a "warning ISO controlled" announcement, because it seems like fresh victims come down the pike into the Universities each semester. Will the new recruits figure out the ruse as those in the past have?

ISOnuts:

http://userhttp://www.sfsu.edu/%7Emotopu/attemptfixisonuts.htm

"ISO alienates SF State activists-SAW site debate Part 1" online at:

http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=20050529001500670

"ISO alienates SF State activists-SAW site debate Part 2"

http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=20050531124816353&query=ISO%2Bal\ienates%2B

ISO bores from within against IWW union:
http://www.worldsocialism.org/usa/wiki/index.php?title=ISO_Sells_Out_Workers

On Vanguard Parties who infiltrate movements for recruitment:
http://deletetheborder.org/node/338


There are many many more...

In case you missed it. Recommended for current SAW and CAN participants.

I have decided to hold my own protest that conforms to my situation and schedule. Others are welcome to join me and stay as long as they want. Keep in mind that the park closes at Sunset. Staying longer may require hanging out on the sidewalk. I will be on the E Santa Clara St side of Roosevelt Park, with my sign, located at 19th and E Santa Clara St in downtown San Jose from 11AM-2PM on Thursday Oct 5, 2006. This is right across the street from my Fair Trade Crafts store Pagesincolor.com. The store will be closed while I am "at work" accross the street. I'm not getting a permit for this and I don't know if I need one.

Directions: Take hwy 101 to just South of the 880 interchange. Take the Santa Clara St/Alum Rock exit. Go West on E Santa Clara St until you get to 21st St. Turn right on N. 21st St and go to the dead end. At the dead end, turn left into the Roosevelt Park parking lot. The parking lot is ok only until sunset, so if you plan to stay longer, park on 19th st or 17th st. Don't park on Santa Clara St since that will block peope's view of the signs.

If you have any questions, call 408-924-0846 between 10:30AM and 3PM Mon-Friday.

Cheers.

I heard the World Can't Wait organizers on KPFA's Flashpoints today, 10/2/06, declare that they are going to parade around downtown San Francisco with a cage in which to put Bush, thereby supporting imprisoning people with our tax dollars. Our Prison Abolition Movement calls for ABOLISHING PRISONS and abolishing the death penalty; we supoprt rehabilitation for all. OUR TAX DOLLARS MUST NEVER SUPPORT PRISONS OR THE DEATH PENALTY. As to these wealthy war criminals like Bush, given his age (over 50), he should have all his wealth taken from him except enough to live the way an average retired worker lives. The under age 50 wealthy war criminals can have their wealth taken from them and be told to go to work.

The concept of telling children to leave school is equally reactionary. We want children to stay in school and do what they can to encourage teaching socialism, labor history, women's history, gay history, black history and the like. We also want them to demand top quality education and full supplies for all students at all grade levels, so that all schools are as good as Lowell High School in San Francisco, and as good as all Marin County Schools are (Tamalpais, Redwood, Drake-all as good as Lowell).

NOW WE COME TO THE OBVIOUS: What exactly is this organization going to do to get Bush out of office and end his policies, the same as those of the Democrats, namely maximization of profit, the cause of all wars? These endless marches and having children walk out of school will have NO EFFECT ON PROFITS, AND WHEN THERE IS NO EFFECT ON PROFITS, NOTHING CHANGES! If you want change in this society, YOU HAVE TO ORGANIZE A LABOR MOVEMENT. The World Can't Wait never talks about organizing labor. Therefore, they are just another charity racket, which is essentially what most political organizations are. The war in Vietnam ended when the people of Vietnam defeated the US military in armed combat, and the Vietnamese were armed by the socialist world. Our peace demonstrations, most of which ended in 1973 when the draft ended, 2 years before the war ended, simply gave voice to opposition to the war against Vietnam; they did not end the war at all. Now that there is no socialist world, it will take a labor movement organized to put an end to the private profit system that will put an end to the Bush regime, and its twins, the Democrats, which is to say capitalism, and replace it with socialism, the non-profit society that has no reason to promote war.

I am working everyday this week, and I am certainly not spending my time marching around town during a weekday. I certainly do not want anything to do with an outfit that promotes prisons and school walkouts. You should all try labor organizing and see how far you get with that. That's the only way you can make fundamental change.

So all the kids that bailed on school to support the immigrant laborers were reactionary huh? Maybe we needed you and your vanguard to stand at the school gates to beat them back in so they could "learn socialism" in the State school.

And then you turn around and promote bureaucratic state capitalism with this rubbish:
"The war in Vietnam ended when the people of Vietnam defeated the US military in armed combat, and the Vietnamese were armed by the socialist world."

Who's the reactionary? And what on earth does this have to do with being on the side of "labor"? Your entire problem with WCW is that they're NOT STALINIST ENOUGH.

Apparently you never got your telegrams:

POLITBURO OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY OF THE USSR THE KREMLIN MOSCOW
SHAKE IN YOUR SHOES BUREAUCRATS STOP THE INTERNATIONAL POWER OF THE WORKERS COUNCILS WILL SOON WIPE YOU OUT STOP HUMANITY WON’T BE HAPPY TILL THE LAST BUREAUCRAT IS HUNG WITH THE GUTS OF THE LAST CAPITALIST STOP LONG LIVE THE STRUGGLE OF THE KRONSTADT SAILORS AND OF THE MAKHNOVSHCHINA AGAINST TROTSKY AND LENIN STOP LONG LIVE THE 1956 COUNCILIST INSURRECTION OF BUDAPEST STOP DOWN WITH THE STATE STOP LONG LIVE REVOLUTIONARY MARXISM STOP OCCUPATION COMMITTEE OF THE PEOPLE’S FREE SORBONNE

POLITBURO OF THE CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY GATE OF CELESTIAL PEACE BEIJING
SHAKE IN YOUR SHOES BUREAUCRATS STOP THE INTERNATIONAL POWER OF THE WORKERS COUNCILS WILL SOON WIPE YOU OUT STOP HUMANITY WON’T BE HAPPY TILL THE LAST BUREAUCRAT IS HUNG WITH THE GUTS OF THE LAST CAPITALIST STOP LONG LIVE FACTORY OCCUPATIONS STOP LONG LIVE THE GREAT CHINESE PROLETARIAN REVOLUTION OF 1927 BETRAYED BY THE STALINIST BUREAUCRATS STOP LONG LIVE THE PROLETARIANS OF CANTON AND ELSEWHERE WHO HAVE TAKEN UP ARMS AGAINST THE SO-CALLED PEOPLE’S ARMY STOP LONG LIVE THE CHINESE WORKERS AND STUDENTS WHO HAVE ATTACKED THE SO-CALLED CULTURAL REVOLUTION AND THE MAOIST BUREAUCRATIC ORDER STOP LONG LIVE REVOLUTIONARY MARXISM STOP DOWN WITH THE STATE STOP OCCUPATION COMMITTEE OF THE PEOPLE’S FREE SORBONNE

It was the labor strike on May Day that defeated the anti-immigrant bills because this strike cut the profits of thousands of businesses. Whole factories closed in the Midwest and whole fields were empty in California on May Day, during the height of the strawberry harvest. The school walkouts did not stop profits and did not increase education. They did create a lot of turmoil for children who did not need any turmoil; they need an education.

It is amazing that the above government agent claims that the armed victory of the Vienamese people, thanks to the support of the socialist world, is somehow Stalinist. Aside from the fact that Trotsky has been vindicated, and it is Stalinists in this country who call for cooperation with the capitalist Democratic Party, we can only assume this government agent would have preferred that the Vietnamese people were not armed, thus guaranteeing their defeat. This is the line of the Bush regime, and its twins, the Democrats.

You will note this government agent says nothing about the most outrageous act of WCW, namely the promotion of prisons instead of the abolition of prisons, replaced with rehabilitation, or in the case of the rich, removal of their wealth from all sources, leaving them with the same income that the average worker receives, either working or retired.

The government agent's contrived telegrams are obviously smokescreens for his opposition to a serious labor movement, the only effective means of putting an end to the Bush regime, that is to say, and end to the private profit system that makes war and fascism possible.

What you should know about the World Can't Wait and the RCP
http://www.infoshop.org/texts/rcp.html

You:
It was the labor strike on May Day that defeated the anti-immigrant bills because this strike cut the profits of thousands of businesses. ...The school walkouts did not stop profits and did not increase education. They did create a lot of turmoil for children who did not need any turmoil; they need an education.

response: It was the labor strike, with spontaneous support from all sorts of people in the community acting in solidarity, including school kids. That you would stifle spontaneous action in support of working class action speaks volumes about your button up vanguardist law and order world view. Your post is so muddled and so confused, that I’m still not sure it isn’t a satirical piece. You want the kids to skip the labor rally to stay in the state school, because you think that is where they are going to learn about labor history? Ha ha ha! Talk about inverted logic. As if action doesn’t inform “education” and theory? Your position is in opposition to dialectics. But it is also just simply reactionary to claim a day at school better serves to teach kids than participating in the May Day rally.

You:
It is amazing that the above government agent claims that the armed victory of the Vienamese people, thanks to the support of the socialist world, is somehow Stalinist. Aside from the fact that Trotsky has been vindicated, and it is Stalinists in this country who call for cooperation with the capitalist Democratic Party, we can only assume this government agent would have preferred that the Vietnamese people were not armed, thus guaranteeing their defeat. This is the line of the Bush regime, and its twins, the Democrats.

response: Calling me a government agent doesn’t change the truth that you are a self identified authoritarian. Your use of the term “the socialist world” is a very clear support of bureaucratic state capitalism, showing a complete lack of historical curiosity beyond whatever political line you are upholding.
As for the socialism of Ho Chi Minh I am guessing you might object to his Stalinist anti-Trotskyism:
After the Seventh Comintern Congress (August 1935) “the struggle
against French imperialism” vanished from the program and was soon
replaced by a struggle against the powerful Trotskyist party. “As for
the Trotskyists, no alliances, no concessions; they must be unmasked
for what they are: the agents of fascism” (Report of Ho Chi Minh to the
Comintern, July 1939).
source: http://www.bopsecrets-org.pem.data393.net/SI/11.wars.htm
To be against U.S. imperialism does not mean a person has to choose some fake “socialist world” where socialism never existed and where a bureaucratic class controlled workers just as efficiently as private capitalists controlled them elsewhere. No amount of guilt tripping or trying to muddle this issue by accusations of “following the Bush line” can obscure this simple fact.


You:
The government agent's contrived telegrams are obviously smokescreens for his opposition to a serious labor movement, the only effective means of putting an end to the Bush regime, that is to say, and end to the private profit system that makes war and fascism possible.

response: I knew you would not have seen these. The telegrams were sent from the Paris 1968 uprisings by the OCCUPATION COMMITTEE OF THE PEOPLE’S FREE SORBONNE (the source was right there for you to look up). But it seems you haven’t read much on 1968, or how your old left vanguardism has been consigned to the dust bin of history. Moronic models of fake opposition (your either a “socialist” or a “government agent”) do nothing to further analysis of our present situation. And it’s also obvious that you think you are empowered to speak FOR the “labor movement” rather than being a part of it. Telling the Maoists that “You should all try labor organizing and see how far you get with that,” shows that you have the idea that the revolutionary consciousness will be imparted onto the workers from an activist cadre of professional revolutionaries. This is a perfect model for the workers power to be overthrown and once again subjugated to a party or an outside force as was seen with the Bolshevik seizure of the Soviets in 1917. So no, Trotsky is not vindicated, you’re not a revolutionary, and you’re not our leader. Aside from that you seem completely ignorant of any historical analysis outside your narrow ideological script, which is both annoying and extremely boring. Any false consciousness predicated on “vindicating” the saints of revolutionary history is already counter revolutionary and non-dialectical serving mainly to preclude useful analysis.

I hate to brake it too, but the NVA and the VC never, not even once, defeated the US Military. They just outlasted us, more a statement on the effectiveness of meat shields + high birth rates then actual tactics or strategy. Treat yourself to a history book sometime.

Let's get together and organize a walk out. There may not be time for this event, but I am interested in working with others to organize for future events. I am a Drake student with no experience, but you have to start somewhere.

it's so very very hot

Everytime there's a protest, some cranky liars at a website called "Infoshop" post wildly dishonest attacks on the organizers and anyone involved.

Does anyone actually know anyone involved, or is it some kind of disinfo website?

I've been an activist for years, known my share of anarchists, and never encountered this group. They have hundreds of creepy articles that attack every group that organizes protests. It looks like something David Horowitz would do with a "A" spray-painted to make it look "real."

Infoshop is mainly Chuck0. He is cranky and counterproductive but not an undercover rightwinger.

Yeah, but does anybody "know" Chuck0?

Look, this guys main activity is doing David Horowitz-style attacks on people while claiming an anarchist identity.

I'm distrustful.

yeah, hes at the Anarchist Book Fair every year and was part of an E Coast Indymedia for a bit before he got kicked out....

I would like to know why Jed Brandt or NYC Indymedia keeps censoring the following two line informational comment that was posted to NYC Indymedia twice yesterday?

What you should know about the World Can't Wait and the RCP
http://www.infoshop.org/texts/rcp.html

Chuck Munson
Infoshop News
http://news.infoshop.org

Ever notice how no one ever actually met this Munson guy?

He's the one who hosts all the sectarian attacks on anarchists he doesn't agree with, antiwar groups and any effort to bring people out who aren't already down. He calls everyone an "authoritarian" and tries to depress turnouts at protests. When major anarchist protests happen, he has hosted illegal calls on his website that have been used as a pretext for repression.

Who is Munson really?

Now he's trying to start shit between Indymedia groups. He already got thrown out of DC Indymedia, among other groups.

I don't think he's an anarchist. I don't think he's an activist. I think he exists online as a provocateur. Whether he does this for fun or pay, I don't know. It doesn't make a difference. The negativos need to take a hike.

Anyone unwilling to put up with some unpleasantness for the sake of knowing the broadest possible scope of theory has no clue. If some critiques are off the table, then people will be limited to choosing from among ideas put forth by groups who have the most "zazz" and "organizing power," or who are acceptable to a wide enough audience on the "left" which says nothing of the quality of what they are organizing for or the quality of their ideas and actions.
To call for the removal of "negativos" is to wish for the status quo, and is inherently counter-revolutionary. If you have some real arguments to make go ahead. Draw out some of the contradictions of the arguments you oppose. We're all waiting for some substance, and name calling and guilt by association doesn't add up to that.

1) Try reading what the organizers have to say for themselves, instead of ad hominem, red-baiting crap:

http://www.worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3024&Itemid=223

http://www.worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3019&Itemid=223

2) Serious accusations like the RCP is secretly sucking away all the funds raised need to be substantiated with at least scraps of evidence -- I read your links, can't find any. Can you help me?

3) Try determining who's a bigger threat to you personally: RCP or BushCo? Exactly who is sucking how much money from whom?

Some members of the Infoshop collective like to joke that I'm actually a fictional front person created by the collective.

Kidding aside, it's too bad that a few anonymous losers can't stand *any* criticism of groups like the RCP and World Can't Wait. That's why people hate these groups, because they foster the kind of close-minded boot-licking that dominates the left and make it so ineffective. Do you people really thnk that World Can't Wait wants to impeach Bush? Come on guys, the RCP has long been opposed to electoral politics. This WCW scam is just an attempt to sucker some angry liberals into donating money to the RCP's front group.

One last thing: I was never kicked out of DC Indymedia. If Jed Brandt is posting this rumor again, fuck you asshole.

I don't know why but I can't view the info shop website from my computer at work. The net nanny error message says that the site is a terrorist/extremist site, whatever that means.

The San Jose vigil is still on, rain or shine. Maybe keep your electronic bullhorns at home though since there are no sound permits for this demo.

Economics is a great way to effect change. Try it some time. Buy fair trade and union made for a start.

Civil war in the United States will begin in 2004 or 2005, as the result of increasingly oppressive police state tactics like warrantless searches and other violations of American civil liberties. It will become common for people to have their doors kicked in and homes violently invaded by police looking for evildoers. The Gestapo-style oppression of innocents by an increasingly oppressive and murderous government will be worst in the cities, so many people will seek refuge in the countryside, but police will soon enough seek them out there too. Civil war will emerge as a more or less continuous series of military sieges and confrontations resembling the Ruby Ridge and Waco police massacres of 1992 and 1993, and it will begin by 2004 or perhaps 2005 (it might not be obvious in the beginning what's actually happening). As time goes on the civil war will become more and more a continuous conflict between paranoid government forces headquartered in the cities, against perceived or imagined threats in the rural civilian population. The American government will wage war against its own citizens, winning most of the battles, but the battling will drag on for years. In the nuclear war of 2015 our cities will be primary targets, so the civil war will end then in favor of the rurals when the government and its domestic armies are destroyed. In this way the nuclear war will be regarded by the survivors as a good thing.

If there was any resistance, it definitely lacked "mass."

Very good pictures from the NYC:
http://www.911blogger.com/node/3477

I'm glad to hear the protests went well in the Bay Area. Now participants need to become organizers and take this movement out, sustain the pressure and encourage a diversity of approaches to this effort. The times are frightening, but fear is not our fuel. We can win this fight. We can stop Bush cold, but the areas of the country where everyone is pretty much united against Bush need to start RESISTING instead of just bitching.

---------

Munson writes: "Some members of the Infoshop collective like to joke that I'm actually a fictional front person created by the collective. "

No they don't. They don't exist. Chuck Munson has no collective. He claims this -- but no anarchist organization in the country endorses his website, which has been a source of controversty not just for smearing anti-war protests with David Horowitz-style hit pieces, but for posting provocation materials and inciting infighting among anarchists.

He was banned from DC Indymedia for harassing volunteers, and had to leave DC because he continually engaged in the same kind of attacks that he does here.

When he claims there is a "collective" -- just note that you'll never know anyone in it. Funny, huh? To engage in political disinformation to depress anarchist activity is hardly an anarchist thing to do.

By your deeds shall you know them. Those who spread fear, distrust and passivity aren't doing anyone any favors. Believe what you see, not the anonymous rumors that pollute Indymedia discussion.

Trust people you know who speak from their own experience. We have room to disagree and still be principled in our efforts.

http://www.worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3024&Itemid=223

you:
Now participants need to become organizers and take this movement out, sustain the pressure and encourage a diversity of approaches to this effort.

translation: what you "organize" for matters not, so long as lots of different types of uncritical people are involved.

you:
We can win this fight. We can stop Bush cold, but the areas of the country where everyone is pretty much united against Bush need to start RESISTING instead of just bitching.

translation: Let's not bog down in defining and analyzing our actions, focusing on the electoral arena is good enough.



you:
Chuck Munson has no collective. He claims this -- but no anarchist organization in the country endorses his website, which has been a source of controversty not just for smearing anti-war protests with David Horowitz-style hit pieces, but for posting provocation materials and inciting infighting among anarchists.

translation: No collective can be real unless officially endorsed by the anarchist hierarchy of groups. Anyone who dares to be critical of tactics, the history, or the ideology of my group has to be to my right, because I say so, no evidence needed or offered. Evidence is for stupid people who question my authority. Criticism is nothing more than provocation, so don't engage in it.

you:
He was banned from DC Indymedia for harassing volunteers, and had to leave DC because he continually engaged in the same kind of attacks that he does here.
When he claims there is a "collective" -- just note that you'll never know anyone in it. Funny, huh? To engage in political disinformation to depress anarchist activity is hardly an anarchist thing to do.

translation: I will repeat what i've said before, despite what Chuck said, and not back it up with any quotes from anyone in DC indymedia, because there is no need for that. Anarchists who critique their own actions and the actions of other anarchists are not really anarchists. Real anarchists always agree with one another on everything, and know that being critical is unpleasant. If you have nothing nice to say, just be quiet. Because I don't personally know anyone in the collective, it can't exist.

you:
By your deeds shall you know them. Those who spread fear, distrust and passivity aren't doing anyone any favors. Believe what you see, not the anonymous rumors that pollute Indymedia discussion.

translation: Only what is visible and present is possible. Empiricism means not seeking out anything you don't already know. Anyone with new ideas, or challenges to established parties or groups is only spreading fear and pollution. This ruins "discussion" which must be polite and clarify nothing.

You:
Trust people you know who speak from their own experience. We have room to disagree and still be principled in our efforts.

translation: Listen to the people who are telling you what to do. Don't try to gather information from as many sources as possible and then weigh them against one another in your own mind. Everything is already figured out. We call this IDEOLOGY and it is good.

you:
http://www.worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3024&Itemid=223
http://www.worldcantwait.net/index.php?opt...

translation: This is a link to "This letter is a personal appeal for your active involvement with World Can't Wait, on your own terms, starting now." Meaning your own terms, so long as you work with WCW. Your own terms can't means you can work with authoritarians as an anti-authoritarian, and isn't that freedom of choice great?

Translation of what World Can't Wait is saying:

"That which you refuse to resist you will be forced to accept."

This movement has room for everyone because it's not a zero-sum game. Either we actively resist, by bringing the millions of people who feel helpless right now into political life, or we will be ruled in a frightening "new normal" where torture is open, war goes on forever and women are told by the Christian Taliban that they can't control when they have children.

The letter by Jed Brandt, that's linked above, is to the point. "On your own terms" means exactly what it says.

Want to join a WCW working group?
DO IT.

Want to join WCW as an organization with your own caveats?
DO IT.

Want to develop a different group that speaks to the moment?
DO IT.

Want to organize networks of abortion providers in case of illegalization?
DO IT.

Want to identify as an anarchist, a communist, a liberal?
DO IT.

Want to provide leaks from your job with the government?
DO IT.

Want to go on a road trip speaking in small towns to local churches, labor locals, schools and town squares (aka WalMart agitation)?
DO IT.

WCW provides one front of struggle. It has brought a diverse array of people together way beyond the usual suspects in a couple of cities -- and all those activists with real organizing, direct action and other kinds of experience need to bring their strength to bear in this fight.

I don't want to get involved with the online crankies. Most of us don't. If that's the tax we have to pay to use Indymedia as it was intended, then so be it. Arguing with individuals about their do-nothing agenda isn't fruitful.

Lies should be exposed, but unlike the cranks -- we've got bigger fish to fry. This regime needs to be politically driven out.

Ralph Nader, Cynthia McKinney, Bob Avakian are three people who agree this is one way of taking up the fight. There are other groups working at their own pace, and that's fine. Of course that's the way it goes.

We don't all have to agree to know which side of the barricades we're on.

In terms of rumors, etc.: Don't believe the negative vibe promoted by anonymous trolls online. Seems obvious, but trolls troll because if they throw enough mud, they hope some of it will stick.

---------

Thousands came out in the Bay because they are the vanguard of the movement to drive these monsters from power. When participants become organizers -- that's how we're going to win. The days of blaming the left for our own defeats are over. We're moving now. Don't want to hold hands? Fine -- then show us how it's done and we'll always be ready to talk.

A careful review of the after action reports from WCW and other independent sources suggests that despite the extraordinary resources poured into the WCW' October 5th national day of action ( including a full page ad in the NYT costing tens of thousands of dollars, stupendous amounts spend on printing ect ) turnout fell far below what the organizers expected - and what was hyped in the WCW pre-event publicity. Indeed far smaller than the last major WCW mobilization. WCW rank and file volunteers - who busted ass to make this event happen need to ask why and not wait for their leadership to tell them.

That that the RCP remains committed to utilizing WCW as an 'intermediate' recruiting vehicle for their party at the expense of the larger antiwar movement comes as no great revelation. Their earlier efforts in NION, the October 22 Coalition, and Refuse and Resist are all examples of this recruiting strategy at work. But this hardly reflects the orientation of the vast majority of those who participate in WCW activities - nor is it likely to in the foreseeable future - despite the RCP's best efforts. My hunch is that the RCP is in for a rude surprise as the liberal organizations and personalities they've been courting via WCW decamp en masse to participate in the midterm electoral charade several weeks from now. Indeed, the real political impact of Oct. 5th may be to cement WCW's position to the right of UFPJ in pandering to the liberals and just to the left of Tom Hayden's Progressive Democrats of America --- Avakian and Hayden together again.