David Ray Griffin Speaks to Sold-out Audience About Myths and Reality of 9/11

More information about Griffin's upcoming appearances:


Sunday, April 2, 12:30-3:30 pm • 1187 Franklin, SF • Democratic World
Federalists Luncheon http://www.dwfed.org

Monday, April 3 at noon • Commonwealth Club of CA in SF,
http://www.commonwealthclub.org

And here are links to audio of Griffin's address at the Grand Lake Theater in Oakland:

Source:
http://www.911blogger.com/2006/03/dr-david-ray-griffin-at-grand-lake.html

MP3 download link:

'9/11 - The Myth & The Reality' (2 hours - 27MB MP3):

A very interesting talk overall . I especially liked his explicit call for a ''anti-imperial movement ''. I did think he was unconvincing on the issue of the Pentagon attack . If the Jet didn't slam into the Pentagon then where is the jet and the two hundred passengers ? Flown to a secret MIlitary base and then executed ?
But he was very convincing re the W.T.C. attack . But i really disagree with the card questions only policy . Even with the best of intentions it limits real discussion and dialogue . ( And i've seen many cases in which critical questions and comments are simply censored ) In the future i hope that there will be a mikes on a stand in the aisle with a reasonable time limit for floor . That usually works fine ,for example i saw Black Scholar Cornell West speak at Laney College to a audience to almost 2000. They had mikes in the floor , had both critical questions and comments and it worked fine . West , to his credit wasn't afraid of dissent and debate .Au contraire , he welcomed it .

I would have liked to ask him why progressives on the left have been almost as reluctant to investigate weaknessess in the 9/11 Official Commission Report as the mainstream media and apologists for the Neocons.

I can't help but draw a parrallel betwen this reluctance and that of many who failed to make stronger demands of their candidate John Kerry in 2004.

Carol Brouillet is a Green Party candidate running for Congress in California's 14th District.

Carol Brouillet:

"It is an honor and pleasure to introduce our main speaker, author of The New Pearl Harbor- Disturbing Questions about the Bush Administration and 9-11 and The 9-11 Commission Report- Omissions and Distortions- A Critique of the Kean-Zelikow Report.

When people face a problem, they usually ask “What can I do?” However, when confronted with 9-11 truths, that shatter their worldviews, people must ask themselves, “Who am I?”

Dr. David Ray Griffin has spent much of his life examining questions about “who we are,” and our relationship with the Universe.

A Professor of Philosophy of Religion and Theology, Emeritus at Claremont School of Theology and Claremont Graduate University, Co-Director of the Center for Process Studies, He has authored fifteen books, edited a dozen more and authored over a hundred articles and chapters, presented innumerable papers and lectures. He is renowned for his theological work, and a recipient of the Book Prize of the Scientific and Medical Network. His forthcoming books include- 9/11 and the American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out, and Christian Faith and the Truth Behind 9/11: A Call to Reflection and Action.

In Process Theology- an Introductory Exposition, he and his co-authored with John B. Cobb, Jr., present a way of understanding God’s existence and our own, as a co-creative process where humans, individually and collectively, have the freedom, responsibility and opportunity to imagine and realize a better or worse future for all.

Dr. Griffin has overcome the central political, and spiritual challenge confronting humanity, at this eternally critical moment: fear.

In 1976, he and Cobb wrote:

“The choice of life, which is the choice of God’s call, is the highest freedom in itself … Hope grows with the ability to respond; despair grows with the self-chosen closing in of horizons.

“To be responsible … is not finally to shoulder an unendurable burden. It is to share in the divine adventure in the world. Although its outcome is never assured… in itself it is joyful. The one who experiences the joy of this participation in the divine life hopes urgently for success, but accepts the risk that the only reward may be in the joy itself.”

By deconstructing the foundational lies of the “War on Terrorism,” courageously dispelling fear to champion truth, and light the path towards a hopeful future, Dr. Griffin is an inspiration to all who reject fear, terror, war, and lies, and to all who cherish life, health, peace, and truth.

The fact that he can enjoy challenging the most threatening empire the world has ever seen, makes it possible, and compelling, for all of us to join him in this journey. Please welcome Dr. David Ray Griffin."

"I can't help but draw a parallel betwen this reluctance and that of many who failed to make stronger demands of their candidate John Kerry in 2004."

Americans are pretty much bullshit now, regardless of their professed politics. If they really lived up to the creed they claim, our Hitler-in-Chief would already be fertilizing the White House lawn by now, along with all his accomplices. But in fact he's just what they want: a Führer

Maria Gilardin's TUC Radio provides two downloadable programs of the Grand Lake Theater event (divided into two roughly thirty minute segments). She also provides information about ordering CDs and cassette tapes of the event.

Gilardin writes: " The mp3 files on this page are linked to http://www.radio4all.net The site has become so popular that it occasionally shuts down. If you can't connect now - try again later."

This is her description of the event:

9-11, THE MYTH AND THE REALITY
Dr. David Ray Griffin
Recorded at the Grand Lake Theater in Oakland, CA
March 30, 2006

A Professor of Philosophy of Religion and Theology, Emeritus, at Claremont School of Theology, David Ray Griffin is the author of: The New Pearl Harbor- Disturbing Questions about the Bush Administration and 9-11; and: The 9-11 Commission Report- Omissions and Distortions - A Critique of the Kean-Zelikow Report.

David Ray Griffin lists nine myths propagated by the Bush administration and the 9-11 Commission Report and systematically lays out his critique. This is a compelling introduction the the key events of 9-11 and answers to some the questions people might have, such as: "Would the government do such a thing?" "What would be their motive?" "Was the 9-11 commission impartial?"

David Ray Griffin also describes a scene in the emergency operations bunker under the White House on the day of 9-11. Secretary of transportation Norman Manetta testified that Dick Cheney was aware of an aircraft approaching the Pentagon but did nothing. Manetta's testimony was omitted from the 9-11 report.

I was at the David Ray Griffin event. I thought he made a well-thought out presentation.

I have checked out two MP3's of the talk, but niether of them included the Q&A at the end.

For many reasons, I think this is the most interesting part of the event. It shows, among other things. what people consider to be the more important details of 9-11, and, to a great extent, what the Reader of the Questions thought were the more important details of 9-11!

I'd be much obilged if anyone can send me the Q&A!

Thank you!

David Ray Griffin was most interesting when he veered from the script--

Hope a complete film of the event will appear soon.

Here is a flash film about Pentagon questions:

Enough already with this conspiracy stuff. It's nonsense and it's boring. There is so much real, provable injustice going on in the world that progressives can be spending their energies on. Enough with these spacy conspiracy theories that couldn't even rise to the level of a pulp spy novel. It's time-wasting, energy draining rubbish.

I don't think the people who put this stuff out actually believe it, they're just playing games. I think they're distatestful and irresponsible games as well. The people who died in those attacks had families and friends and loved ones who still miss them. Why are the conspiracy mongers trying to hurt these poor people further by dispensing this trash?

That we should believe the government without question? Is that what you're saying?

Nobody's saying we should believe the government without question. What I am saying is let's live in the real world. I've looked at the Griffin book, and heard him in other places and he doesn't provide any real evidence. Facts strung together and speculation are not evidence. I'm saying these conspiracy theories are a waste of time, unless there's is iron-clad documented proof of anything. I'm saying it wouldn't make sense for the government to do these types of things, because they are interested in keeping themselves in their positions and they wouldn't risk doing anything so stupid, because they can't guarantee that the thousands of people who would have to be involved to pull this off wouldn't spill the beans. They can't guarantee that a Richard Clark type guy, or a few of them, won't have a moment of conscience and let the cat out of the bag. It would mean the guys who did it would go to prison for treason and their fortunes would be seized and they're family names would have a black mark for all time. They just wouldn't risk it. They've got too much to lose. Now it's true they've used the tragedy for their own selfish ends, but that's a long way from saying they did it. It wastes time and energy going on and on about this rubbish. Let's work as progressives to get their butts out of office in 06 and 08, then work from there. Stop it with the bad James Bond evil genius nonsense.

Dear Bored,

With admiration for your honest feelings, I hope you don't mind my offering the following words which I posted at GradetheNews.org on November 12th of last year:

David Ray Griffin's Campaign for the Truth
Posted on November 12, 2005 at 07:29:08 AM by Robert B. Livingston

Leave it to Marin County's little Coastal Post newspaper to report recent news about Dr. David Ray Griffin's quixotic campaign to get answers about the 9/11 World Trade Center destruction... including his call on "the New York Times to take the lead in finally exposing to the American people and the world the truth about 9/11."

When I think about where the media and our leaders have failed us most-- even more so than about the deceptions behind our pursuit of "pre-emptive" war in Iraq--it must certainly be located in the uncomfortable realm delineated by the known facts regarding 9/11.

What are the facts? Why are they not a greater topic of public and media exploration? Does it suffice to label something conspiracy theory, and just walk away from it? Has Griffin's arguments been diluted by fringy "camp followers" who themselves capitalize on controversy?

I am not convinced that there was a government conspiracy, but neither am I convinced that there was not one. I don't know: but I must agree with Griffin's observation that the fall of the towers appear to have been caused by a controlled demolition. I must agree that the government has dragged its heels, and even hindered progress about answering questions regarding that infamous day. I am convinced that it used 9/11 as an excuse to pursue a hideous imperial war of aggression while putting the pursuit of Osama bin Laden on a back-burner.

Whoever is reading this... what do you really understand about 9/11? What do you really know about it? What unanswered questions do you crave to have answered? Can you even admit that you wonder deeply about it? Can you admit that you may fear that our government was responsible, or on the other hand, that you cannot acquiesce to the the explanations that flatter our government the most?

Most curious of all-- why do individuals like Noam Chomsky whose life work is to expose injustice through knowledge oddly lead the curious away from greater knowledge about it? (His observation that a scandal on the magnitude of a government conspiracy behind 9/11 would have brought forth whistle blowers by now is nevertheless quite plausible.) Why can't he seem himself to understand the people's need for better closure?

Logic demands better answers than have been thus far sanctified in public. I have generally found Dr. Griffin's logic impeccable. If it is not, then how can he continue to expound his theories to greater audiences without authoritative and conclusive rebuttal? What has he stood to gain? Who is Dr. Ray Griffin? These may be good starting questions.

The unequaled New York Times should take a hard look at the subject of 9/11 and collate and analyze every explanation that has been forwarded-- perhaps after the imperative shakeup that is due it after its string of public betrayals (Judith Miller and weak mea culpas etc.). It owes it to the victims of 9/11-- which in a sense includes all of us.

I still simply cannot fathom the severe sickness or malevolence that envelops the Bush Administration. As Paul Krugman has bravely long noted-- the Bush administration has audaciously lied about virtually everything since its inception: which itself was a lie. (It stole its power to govern us. I am utterly convinced that the facts are conclusive about this.)

How can we not distrust this administration to our very bones? How can we not sift through the wreckage of 9/11, and sift it again, and again-- until we can be completely satisfied that we actually know enough to be factually fluent about it?

Where is the media on this?

Article in the Coastal Post:

http://www.coastalpost.com/05/11/12_.html

Postscript:

Yes, our situation today is such that we are holding more than enough red-hot falsehoods from our government to justify narrowing our focus to more expeditiously pass judgement upon it. Citizens have been deceived, and thousands upon thousands of people have been killed; quite possibly more may-- as a direct result.

At times it is too much to bear thinking about-- but if we are ever to evolve into more compassionate and wise human beings living in a healthier world we must not fear asking ALL of the questions we can-- especially when the answers we have been getting regarding more mundane matters are so disturbing.

I don't wish to end here on such a preachy note.

There is a wonderful comedian here in the Bay Area who is really rather wise I believe. He has serious questions about 9/11, but better, I think he has some good clues about what can be done to free ourselves from the fix we are in today.

To leave with a smile here is the link:

Are you saying that the government's official conspiracy theory is *not* a waste of time?

On September 11, 2001 a group of disciplined, determined religious fanatics exploited a lax airline security system and an ill-prepared intelligence system to committ a horrible act of mass murder. With cold-hearted calculation, they planned for years to fly fuel-laden planes, filled with innocent passengers, into U.S. national landmarks, and they succeeded. The agencies designed to protect the public were caught with their pants down. That's what happened in a nutshell.

There is no evidence, scientific, or otherwise to suggest anything else. I've looked at what Griffin and other have put out and there's nothing there that concretely proves anything else happened other than what I described above.

Back to 9-11. I doubt I'll convince anyone who insists on having fun speculating on this or that conspiracy theory to see reason. But, I would remind those who disseminate this nonsense that thousands and thousands of relatives and friends of the 9-11 victims are suffering from a great loss. It dishonors the memory of their loved ones to deflect the blame away from the wicked murderers who committed this barbarous act. Now that doesn't excuse the shameful unpreparedness of the government to prevent this act. People needed to answer for their incompetence and haven't. But the fact remains that the blame rests entirely on the 19 men who took it upon themselves to do this awful thing and history will judge them for the monsters they were.

It does the progressive cause no good to dabble in fantasy stories. It demeans us and unnecessarily hurts those the victims left behind. Remember, children and babies were on those planes, how do you think their surviving parents and relatives feel about a group of people spinning stories trying to let their children's killer off-the-hook? Shame on you. Please just stop it, for decency's sake.

while there may not be actual proof of another story -- that would be THE smoking gun that convicted people of conspiracy -- there is A LOT that shows that the official story you accept has serious holes in it

why weren't airforce planes scrambled faster?

Condie lied on 9/11 when she said she never imagined planes as weapons.

it only came out months later that the FBI KNEW al qaeda was training in US planes in months prior to 9/11 (came out recently they even knew this since mid-90s).

it goes on and on, without even getting into the theories of what actually happenned, what the full story was

people may never know the actual full truth, as with JFK assassination, but you can sure as hell bet it was not a magic lone bullet with JFK and 9/11 was not as simple as we've been told -- too many lies have been called out and there's too many inconsistencies

you can start with this simple timeline of the actual day itself: http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&day_of_9/11=dayOf911

that just scratches the surface of holes in official stories out there

Extremely hot fires caused structures to fail, BYU expert says

By Suzanne Dean
For the Deseret Morning News

EPHRAIM — A Brigham Young University physicist said he now believes an incendiary substance called thermite, bolstered by sulfur, was used to generate exceptionally hot fires at the World Trade Center on 9/11, causing the structural steel to fail and the buildings to collapse.

"It looks like thermite with sulfur added, which really is a very clever idea," Steven Jones, professor of physics at BYU, told a meeting of the Utah Academy of Science, Arts and Letters at Snow College Friday.

The government requires standard explosives to contain tag elements enabling them to be traced back to their manufacturers. But no tags are required in aluminum and iron oxide, the materials used to make thermite, he said. Nor, he said, are tags required in sulfur.

Jones is co-chairman, with James H. Fetzer, a distinguished professor of philosophy at the University of Minnesota of Scholars for 9/11 Truth, a group of college faculty members who believe conspirators other than pilots of the planes were directly involved in bringing down New York's Trade Towers.

The group, which Jones said has 200 members, maintains a Web site at http://www.st911.org. A 40-page paper by Jones, along with other peer-reviewed and non-reviewed academic papers, are posted on the site.

Last year, Jones presented various arguments for his theory that explosives or incendiary devices were planted in the Trade Towers, and in WTC 7, a smaller building in the Trade Center complex, and that those materials, not planes crashing into the buildings, caused the buildings to collapse.

At that time, he mentioned thermite as the possible explosive or incendiary agent. But Friday, he said he is increasingly convinced that thermite and sulfur were the root causes of the 9/11 disaster.

He told college professors and graduate students from throughout Utah gathered for the academy meeting that while almost no fire, even one ignited by jet fuel, can cause structural steel to fail, the combination of thermite and sulfur "slices through steel like a hot knife through butter."

He ticked off several pieces of evidence for his thermite fire theory:

First, he said, video showed a yellow, molten substance splashing off the side of the south Trade Tower about 50 minutes after an airplane hit it and a few minutes before it collapsed. Government investigators ruled out the possibility of melting steel being the source of the material because of the unlikelihood of steel melting. The investigators said the molten material must have been aluminum from the plane.

But, said Jones, molten aluminum is silvery. It never turns yellow. The substance observed in the videos "just isn't aluminum," he said. But, he said, thermite can cause steel to melt and become yellowish.

Second, he cited video pictures showing white ash rising from the south tower near the dripping, liquefied metal. When thermite burns, Jones said, it releases aluminum-oxide ash. The presence of both yellow-white molten iron and aluminum oxide ash "are signature characteristics of a thermite reaction," he said.

Another item of evidence, Jones said, is the fact that sulfur traces were found in structural steel recovered from the Trade Towers. Jones quoted the New York Times as saying sulfidization in the recovered steel was "perhaps the deepest mystery uncovered in the (official) investigation." But, he said, sulfidization fits the theory that sulfur was combined with thermite to make the thermite burn even hotter than it ordinarily would.

Jones said a piece of building wreckage had a gray substance on the outside that at one point had obviously been a dripping molten metal or liquid. He said that after thermite turns steel or iron into a molten form, and the metal hardens, it is gray.

He added that pools of molten metal were found beneath both trade towers and the 47-story WTC 7. That fact, he said, was never discussed in official investigation reports.

And even though WTC 7 was not connected to the Trade Towers — in fact, there was another building between it and the towers —and even though it was never hit by a plane, it collapsed. That suggests, he said, that it came down because a thermite fire caused its structural steel to fail.

Jones said his studies are confined to physical causes of the collapses, and he doesn't like to speculate about who might have entered the buildings and placed thermite and sulfur. But he said 10 to 20 people "in the know," plus other people who didn't know what they were doing but did what they were told, could have placed incendiary packages over several weeks.

George W. Bush IS a Liar
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2006/041306.html



JFK and 9/11
http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_jon_kore_060412_jfk_and_9_2f11.htm

bored is either a g-man writing in defense of those who butter his bread or an idiot. any thinking person who has read, not just looked at, Griffin's books comes away 'knowing' there was at minimum a cover up and most likely full complicity on the part of this administration.

two of the most obvious 'facts' were the large quantity of iron and steel found in the liquid state in the subfloor levels of all 3 collapsed buildings up to 8 weeks post 9/11/01 and the lack of any identifying parts from the aircraft the official story says actually impacted with the buildings. this alone smells like a rat.

the most damning evidence to me though is the president himself. have you seen him since this 9/11 truth movement has been breaking through? he seems to become more more frail and feeble every day. his hair grows whiter, the lines on his face deepen, he shakes and twitches, his once proud gait has become stumbling, as he speaks he stuggles for air as well as words, something is happening to him. what is the cause?

oh what a tangled web we weave...

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to accuse me of being a government agent, or a part of the "grand conspiracy." Unfortunately this type of behavior it typical of the conspiracy crowd. You don't have to be a scientist to know that steel weakens under intense heat, and fires burning at thousands of degrees Fahrenheit will do the trick. The trade towers collapsed because the fires weakened their structural integrity, until all that piled up concrete and steel collapsed in on itself under the weight. Period. End of story.

Lower Manhattan is one of the most crowded pieces of real estate on earth. And is loaded with people coming and going 24 hours a day. Why didn't anyone notice people planting explosives, or doing anything fishy? Because no one did any such thing, that's why.

Speculation about the color of the smoke coming from the tower and whatever silly nonsense about the way the shadows on the video are coming from the east not the west, or whatever, proves nothing. That is called speculation. And speculation does not mean proof.

Listen, if you had the power and priveleges that the government elites have, would you put all that at risk with some immenseley complicated conspiracy, in which you couldn't guarantee the plot would never leak? That would be lunacy.

Now think long and hard about that. If you were in their positions, would you be that stupid? I don't think so.

companies have made hundreds of billions of dollars since 9/11

the only foolish thing to assume is that hundreds of billions of dollars is not worth 3000 lives to the extremely greedy and corrupt

again, the official story has been proven to be pocked with lies and inconsistencies. this is a fact. not being able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt (yet) the actual alternate version of the story does not mean the official story is complete and true

>steel weakens under intense heat,

Exactly what kind of steel are we talking about here? At what specific temperature does it begin to weaken?


>and fires burning at thousands of degrees Fahrenheit will do the trick.

At what precise temperature does jet fuel burn?

Billions of dollars may be worth 3,000 lives to some people. But billions of dollars will do you no good in prison, which is where the "conspirators" would be if they'd done such a thing and had been as sloppy at it as the speculators suggest. You can't make people keep silent, even through threats, when people are driven by conscience. History is full of whistleblowers defying the powers that be and coming forward. Nobody's come forward with anything linking anyone to the 9-11 attacks other than the men who hijacked the planes and their supporters. Nobody's come forward because there's nothing to report.

And as for what specific temperature jet fuel burns at, or how hot does it have to get to weaken steel. The answer is: it has to burn as hot as it did when those planes hit those buildings. I could go to the library look up the specific temperature, consult building engineers and experts in the steel making process and lay it all out for you. But, I'm not, because if I did, you'd only come up with some other excuse for not accepting the obvious.

This stuff is fun to you people. It's like trying to piece together a puzzle, or reading and discussing science fiction. That would be okay if it wasn't so tragic. The problem is it's distateful because people died horribly and left behind loved ones. In none of this string has anyone condemned the hijackers for their crimes, or even admitted their involvement, which is morally repugnant. As for me I've had enough. Go ahead and play your little games.

we've equally had enough of you

what you think are your common-sensical replies to everything are built on your assumptions that the powers that be are ethical or that people don't commit crimes because there is a chance of getting caught

it's poppycock, and basically you are not paying enough attention to the world around you

>You don't have to be a scientist to know that steel weakens under intense heat, and fires burning at thousands of degrees Fahrenheit will do the trick. The trade towers collapsed because the fires weakened their structural integrity, until all that piled up concrete and steel collapsed in on itself under the weight. Period. End of story.<

That is just utter nonsense! NO steel framed building in HISTORY has EVER collapsed due to heat from fires,HOWEVER INTENSE they were.Fires in such buildings have lasted for many many many HOURS LONGER with MUCH HIGHER TEMPERATURES,infact TOWERING INFERNO's and have STILL STOOD the following day.
The Twin Towers were in NO WAY towering inferno's with almost everyfloor engulfed in huge flames pouring from every window,infact the video evidence proves exactly the opposite.
And yet we are expected to believe that very short lived,very cool fires were able to weaken the HUGE 47 STEEL central columns of the towers in 56 mins in the case of one tower,and just under 2hours of the other,causing these buildings to collapse.

Beliefs based on the "fire caused collapse" theory is just not based on fact or reality!

That wasn't an answer. Can we thus assume that you don't *know* the answers?

Exactly what kind of steel are we talking about here? At what specific temperature does it begin to weaken?

At what precise temperature does jet fuel burn?

Be specific.

Bored is right. This stuff conspiracy stuff is just bunk. Fires don't have to be that hot to weaken steel, around 1200 degrees will weaken steel by about 35 percent. Steel is manipulated and shaped through the use of heat. It takes incredible heat to melt steel. But steel doesn't have to melt to be weakened and lose its integrity enough to be shaped. I once toured a steel plant in Pennsylvania and had all this stuff explained to me. Those tours are fascinating by the way, you should go some time. Also don't forget that massive jet liners slammed into those buildings at 600 mph, doing extensive damage to the upper floors and weakening the top of the structure. Flammable materials like carpets, drapes, desks, tons of paper and other things fueled the blaze. The fire also traveled through elevator shafts and stairwells. Once those planes hit it was only a matter of time before those buildings went.

Did somebody actually mention the "Towering Inferno"? Wasn't that a cheesy disaster movie from the 70s? That kind of indicates where the conspiracy spinners are coming from, the world of bad fiction.

Somebody said fear of punishment doesn't prevent people from committing crimes. But a crime of this magnitude would've required the involvement of thousands of people across dozens of government agencies. Nobody, and I mean nobody, is going to committ a crime of historic proportions and then rely on thousands of people you don't even know to keep quiet. That's a lot different than deciding to mug somebody or knock over a liquour store, or even a bank for that matter.

"History is full of whistleblowers defying the powers that be and coming forward. Nobody's come forward with anything linking anyone to the 9-11 attacks other than the men who hijacked the planes and their supporters. Nobody's come forward because there's nothing to report."

Whistleblowers do come forward-- some are very courageous and even take to the streets in protest. Often they are ostracized, fired, or worse.

And what happens? Their colleagues mumble as they rationalize: "Well, nothing has happened to me yet." (Even as their friends are embroiled in overwhelming conflicts, lose their jobs.. or worse.)

Their colleagues begin to believe they are immune from disgace so long as they don't cross that shadowy line that demarcates sophistry and false altruism from truth and authentic compassion.

But they are not safe; and even give themselves away by their denial and derision of one of humankind's most basic needs: "the need to know."

>around 1200 degrees will weaken steel by about 35 percent.

What kind of steel are you talking about? What volume? What time frame? What, exactly, do you mean by "weaken"? Be specific. Cite your sources.


>Flammable materials like carpets, drapes, desks, tons of paper and other things fueled the blaze.

How hot do carpets, drapes, desks, and paper burn? Be specific. Cite your sources.

yes, it is very troubling, but i wouldn't want to debate him...

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/

i'm not a religious man but, seriously, god bless the u.s.a.

This recently made Radio4All archive of James H. Fetzer, Ph.D. (who with David Ray Griffin is helping lead the 9/11 Truth Movement) speaking in San Diego on April 4, 2006 gives a true indication of the motives behind the 9/11 Truth Movement.

Fetzer (a philosopher), like Griffin (A theologian) declaims the official explanations for 9/11-- not for sport, or for fame, or for money-- but because he is enraged that the American values he loves have been most imperilled under the Bush and the Neocon cabal. His hope is that the media, that our elected government representatives, and we ourselves will rise and reestablish a country that inspires international Respect and Awe not "Shock and Awe."

Exposing the hoax behind 9/11 is not a game. It is a patriotic, courageous quest.

Please download and listen:

His essential point that steel is weakened to below customary design strength by temperatures in this range is not debatable. Ask any structural engineer. That's why every steel high-rise has to have fire-cladding around the frame, typically poured concrete. That's not for strength. It loads the building additionally and actually limits the design. The reason it's there is to sop up heat in the event of fire, and the potential for heat-induced collapse is the whole reason why

The 9-11 truth movement's commitment to controlled demolition of the twin towers is a really dumb move.

- When people raise the "too many would have to know" objection, they make a really good point that should be taken into account. "Plausible deniability" begins with not making stupid moves in this sense, so if 9-11 WAS a false flag operation by Western spooks, having teams running around PLACING EXPLOSIVES all through the buildings for a week in advance would have been a super stupid move. The possibility of detection by the building security would have been huge and impossible to control. The towers DIDN'T HAVE TO COLLAPSE in order for the attack to have the desired Pearl Harbor psychological impact. People were already completely flipping their lids when the second plane hit, the psy-war effect was a done deal. The collapse was A BONUS. Why would the planners take outrageous risks of detection by rigging the building when THEY DIDN'T EVEN NEED TO?? This would be STUPID. These people are not stupid.

- Technically ignorant skeptics keep claiming the collapses looked just like controlled implosion. With the exception of building Seven, this is RIDICULOUS. The collapses clearly initiated at the level of impact and were wildly messy. It didn't look like controlled demolition AT ALL.

- There's lots of very solid stuff to build a conspiracy argument on, like the six or so hijackers WHO ARE STILL ALIVE for example, so why all these lemming idiots are climbing on controlled demolition and handing the "too many would know" critics their automatic victory is beyond me. The issue here is intelligent PR strategy, and the 9-11 truth crowd is screwing this pooch BIG TIME

- I actually know a lot of people in these circles, and a lot of them I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw them. They're just not the political activist type at all, they're too slick and corporate. My character radar flashes red BIG TIME. I would not be surprised AT ALL to find out that half the "movement," especially the leadership, is bullshit artists working for PR companies. The Web Fairy and the 911Hoax.com jerk-off who keeps plaguing this site are prime suspects. Pay attention to the arguments these clowns come off with. They mix in UFOs, the Illuminati, chemtrails, all this cockamamie shit. It's CUSTOM-MADE to associate 9-11 skepticism with classic tin-foil-hat crackpottery and in this way totally discredit it! Anymore when I see "activists" shoving controlled demolition forcefully, I put them in the same camp with these frauds

Well done TW - somebody had to say it. We'll see who's genuine by their reaction to this.

Griffin, Jones, Sheen - listen up.

So many of those opposed to Griffin's explanations don't seem to understand that what Griffin wants is a full untainted examination of what happened on September 11, 2001.

What do we know? Next to nothing, thanks to the government's aggressive obfuscation of the events of that day.

I am uncomfortable with some of the nuts bordering the truth movement, but name-calling is less effective than actually punching holes in their theories with facts.

Without doubt, the government failed at providing conclusive evidence regarding the events-- which allows many nutty ideas to flourish in the vacuum.

Meantime-- Griffin, Fetzer, and Jones are asking some very good questions, backed up with very solid facts.

Jones especially makes good points about the physics of steel, fire, and building destruction.

These are key articles:

Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse? by Steven E. Jones, Ph.D.
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Cannot Be True by David Ray Griffin, Ph.D.
http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html

Thinking about "Conspiracy Theories": 9/11 and JFK by James H. Fetzer, Ph.D.
http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/fetzerexpandedx.htm

"I am uncomfortable with some of the nuts bordering the truth movement, but name-calling is less effective than actually punching holes in their theories with facts."

Unfortunately, the nuts are the reason that the general public is growingly less sympathetic to those wanting more of an investigation.

As for missing hijackers I wonder about the wikipedia entry:

"The FBI reported that they had seized cell phone records for Wail's phone shortly after the attacks.

Wail and Waleed were both reported to have been found alive and well, by the BBC later in 2001. They were reportedly the sons of a Saudi diplomat stationed in Bombay. Wail claims he did attend Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Delray Beach, Florida - but was the victim of mistaken identity, since he used that training to secure his current position with a Moroccan airline company. Saudi Arabia has confirmed his story, and suggested he was the victim of identity theft. Much of the BBC information regarding "alive" hijackers was incorrect, according to the same sources used by BBC. These include various sources from Saudi Arabia.

However, the al-Shehri's father says he hadn't heard from his sons in ten months prior to September 2001.[9] An ABC News story in March 2002 repeated this, and during a report entitled "A Saudi Apology" for Dateline NBC on Aug 25 2002, NBC's reporter John Hockenberry traveled to 'Asir, where he interviewed the third brother Salah who agreed that his two brothers were dead and claimed they had been "brainwashed"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wail_al-Shehri

So its not clear if there ws identity theft or the guy in the plane really was who the official version said he was.

The coverup seems to me mainly to be one of people trying to hide incompetence. Did agencies in the US government have warning? Probably but did they believe the warning signs? People ignore bomb therats all the time if they seem uncredible and the limited amount of warning (even including the "Bin Laden determined to attack in US" memo) may have been within normal background talk (I mean how many 16 year old boys havent dreamed about blowing up a joint session of congress... admit it youve fantasized about it when you were younger even if it wasnt realistic.... )

The Petition is about 3/4 of the way to reaching its goal of getting 10,000 signatures. Please help by signing. (Go to the link below.)

The Petition:

Scholars Call for Release of 9/11 Information
TO THE MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES AND
OF THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA:*

PLEASE TAKE NOTICE THAT,

On Behalf of the People of the United States of America, the Undersigned Scholars for 9/11 Truth Hereby Petitions for, and hereby demands, Release of the Following kinds of documents, video and films, and physical evidence to the public for study by experts and scholars investigating the events of 9/11:

1. Immediate release of the full Pentagon surveillance tapes, of which five frames (only) have been released via the official ASCE report, as Judicial Watch has also requested. We further demand release of the video tape seized by FBI agents minutes after the Pentagon hit, from the fuel service station near the Pentagon, as well as any other videotape which shows the 9/11 strike on the Pentagon.

See
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/12/1211_wirepentagon.html
http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/2000/b05012000_bt218-00.html
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/May2000/20005022a.jpg
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jpdesm/pentagon/pages-en/fct-videos.html

2. Immediate release of 6,899 photographs and 6,977 segments of video footage held by NIST, largely from private photographers, regarding the collapses of WTC buildings on 9/11/2001 (NIST, 2005, p. 81). In particular, all footage relating to the collapse of WTC 7 (including shots before, during and after the collapse) must be released immediately, without waiting for the NIST report on WTC 7, which is long overdue and may be prolonged indefinitely.

3. An explanation from Vice President Richard Cheney regarding the "orders" described by Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta in his testimony before The 9/11 Commission. Secretary Mineta stated that while in an underground bunker at the White House, he watched Vice President Cheney castigate a young officer for asking, as a plane drew closer and closer to the Pentagon, "Do the orders still stand?" The officer should be identified and allowed to testify at a deposition under oath.

See http://www.911truthmovement.org/video/hamilton_win.wmv

4. The documents generated by Vice President Cheney's energy task force have been kept from the public. A court case brought forth a few maps that display oil fields in the Middle East. We hereby put Congress on notice that there is probable cause with regard to criminal activities by the Cheney Energy Task Force involving a criminal conspiracy to launch illegal wars and/or terrorist activities. We therefore demand that Energy Task Force document that comprise, discuss, or refer to plans to invade the Middle East, including Iran, and Venezuela or other sovereign nations be released immediately.

See Cheney v. District Court 542 U.S. 367 (2004) and United States v. Nixon 418
U.S. 683 (1974).

See http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33642

5. Audio tapes of interviews with air traffic controllers on-duty on 9/11 were intentionally destroyed by crushing the cassette by hand, cutting the tape into little pieces, and then dropping the pieces in different trash cans around the building. We demand an explanation for this destruction of evidence and ask that the possible existence of other copies of such tapes or perhaps of written transcripts of the interviews be pursued. All air traffic controllers on-duty on 9/11 should be allowed to testify during a public forum under oath.

See
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F0091FFE3C580C748CDDAC0894DC404482&incamp=archive:search?
http://web.archive.org/web/20040509021515/http://www.suntimes.com/output/terror/cst-nws-tape07.html

6. The Secret Service, which is highly trained to protect the President from danger and to move him to a secure location in the event of a threat, breached its own standard procedures by allowing President Bush to remain at a public location for 25 minutes after it was known that the nation was under attack. All Secret Service personnel who were at Booker Elementary School with President Bush on 9/11 should be required to testify in public and under oath about these events.

See
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=121331&page=1
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/feral_press_9-10.gif
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/bushbook.mov

7. On the morning of 9/11, some five "war games" or "terror drills" were being conducted by U.S. defense agencies, including one "live fly" exercise employing aircraft. These drills reportedly included the injection of false radar blips onto the screens of air traffic controllers. In addition, the government was running a simulation of a plane crashing into a building the morning of 9/11. Who was in charge of coordinating these war games and terror drills? Who had the ability to issues orders in relation to their conduct? On which screens were "false radar blips" inserted? When did such false injects commence? When were they purged from the controllers' screens? What was the effect of these activities on standard procedures for interdicting hijacked aircraft?

See
http://www.911readingroom.org/bib/whole_document.php?article_id=92
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/031505_mckinney_transcript.shtml
http://www.spiegltech.com/media/McKinney2.rm (6 minutes, 12 seconds into the video)
http://www.boston.com/news/packages/sept11/anniversary/wire_stories/0903_plane_exercise.htm

8. It has been reported that the FBI long ago found three of four "black boxes" from the two airplanes which hit the Twin Towers, yet has consistently denied that they were ever found. Their data would be of the greatest importance to understanding the events of 9/11. This matter must be investigated and the data they provide released to the public.

See
http://www.pnionline.com/dnblog/extra/archives/001139.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff12202005.html

For each of the four sites under investigation, the 9/11 Commission reported that two Boeing 757s, and two Boeing 767s (FAA, Part 121, airliners) owned by United Airlines and American Airlines were hijacked by novice pilots and were subsequently crashed, resulting in an unimaginable loss of life. Approximately 3,000 people died the morning of 9/11 as the direct result of these officially reported hijackings and subsequent crashes.

These four scheduled airliners were reported to have carried a total of 266 passengers and crew members, which, under FAA and NTSB regulations, demands a comprehensive investigation of the primary and contributing causes of each. In the case of suspected criminal foul play, the NTSB would normally assign the lead investigative role to the FBI, with assistance of investigators from the NTSB and FAA. A comprehensive investigation of each aircraft crash is not a regulatory option: they would have been mandatory. Therefore, we demand public release of each comprehensive crash investigation report, including access to all physical evidence that was required to have been collected and secured at a suitable facility. Such evidence should have included a large assortment of indestructible parts, including landing gears, surface actuators, engines, black boxes, and so on. The serialized parts would be invaluable in identifying each aircraft and, contrary to some reports, could not have "vaporized" upon impact.

Considering the enormous loss of life and financial collateral damage, if no crash investigations were conducted, who made the decision to disregard the FAA, Part 121, regulatory requirement? In the absence of the Part 121 investigation reports, the identity of the responsible authorities who made the decision not to investigate must be released, and they should be made immediately available for deposition under oath.

9. In the weeks before 9/11, the US Stock market showed rather high levels of activity on companies that would subsequently be affected by the attacks. The afternoon before the attack, alarm bells were sounding over trading patterns in stock options. A jump in United Air Lines some 90 times (not 90 percent) above normal between September 6 and September 10, for example, and 285 times higher than average the Thursday before the attack, have been reported. A jump in American Airlines put options 60 times (not 60 percent) above normal the day before the attacks has also been reported. No similar trading occurred on any other airlines appear to have occurred.

Between September 6-10, 2001, the Chicago Board Options Exchange saw suspicious trading on Merrill Lynch and Morgan Stanley, two of the largest WTC tenants. An average of 3,053 put options in Merrill Lynch were bought between Sept. 6-10, compared to an average of 252 in the previous week. Merrill Lynch, another WTC tenant, saw 12,215 put options bought between Sept. 7-10, whereas the previous days had seen averages of 212 contracts a day. According to Dylan Ratigan of Bloomberg News: "This would be the most extraordinary coincidence in the history of mankind, if it was a coincidence. This could very well be insider trading at the worst, most horrific, most evil use you’ve ever seen in your entire life. It’s absolutely unprecedented."

On September 18, 2001, the BBC reported: "American authorities are investigating unusually large numbers of shares in airlines, insurance companies and arms manufacturers that were sold off in the days and weeks before the attacks. They believe that the sales were by people who knew about the impending disaster". According to the London Independent, October 10, 2001: "To the embarrassment of investigators, it has also emerged that the firm used to buy many of the 'put' options—where a trader, in effect, bets on a share price fall—on United Airlines stock was headed until 1998 by 'Buzzy' Krongard, now executive director of the CIA."

See
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1549909.stm
http://news.independent.co.uk/business/news/story.jsp?story=99402

The 9/11 Commission, after looking into the pre-9/11 stock trades, never denied their unusual nature. Instead, the Commission declared that al-Qaeda did not conduct the trades, and asked no further questions.

http://tinyurl.com/qqe3t

Who, if not al-Qaeda, performed the incriminating trades? This information exists, it can be easily obtained, and it needs to be made public. Moreover, illegal money transfers may have been processed through computers housed at the World Trade Center shortly before planes crashed into the Twin Towers on 9/11. We demand a disclosure of the source of the put options and that this whole sordid affair receive a complete and public investigation.

See
http://www.rediff.com/money/2001/dec/17wtc.htm
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/TECH/industry/12/20/wtc.harddrives.idg/

10. Eyewitness testimony and a substantiating photographic record suggest that a large sample of slag from the World Trade Center is being held at Hangar 17 of the John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York City. Access to the slag sample should be made available to appropriate physicists in order to conduct non-destructive X-ray Fluorescence tests and other forms of examination, which should reveal evidence of the cause of the collapse of the Twin Towers. Based on these tests, we further demand two small samples (about the size of a fist) be extracted from this large piece for further scientific analysis.

See http://911proof.com/resources/Slag+Sample.gif

11. Release of a complete inventory of the plane wreckage and debris from flights 11, 77, 93 or 175 or any other aircraft that crashed or was destroyed on September 11, 2001, including, but not limited to:

(a) the location (whether warehouses or otherwise) of all such items;

(b) a catalog of photographs and videotapes taken of any and all such items; and

(c) a list of all tests and examinations concerning any and all such items, including reports of such tests or examinations.

12. Release of a complete inventory of any steel, other metal or other material from the World Trade Centers, including, but not limited to:

(a) the location (whether warehouses or otherwise) of all such items;

(b) a catalog of photographs and videotapes taken of any and all such items; and

(c) a list of all tests and examinations concerning any and all such items, including reports of such tests or examinations.

On behalf of the People of the United States of America, we demand that the cover-up in this case end and that the kinds of documents, video and films, and physical evidence described above be provided to the public for experts and scholars to evaluate and assess in their efforts to expose falsehoods and reveal truths about events on 9/11.

FOR THE SOCIETY:

James H. Fetzer, Ph.D.
Founder and Co-Chair
Scholars for 9/11 Truth

Steven E. Jones, Ph.D.
Co-Chair
Scholars for 9/11 Truth

7 March 2006

>the nuts are the reason that the general public is growingly less sympathetic to those wanting more of an investigation

In spookspeak the mixing of disinfo in with facts is called "poisoning the well." It's purpose is to make the facts suspect. It's a reasonably effective tactic. Even professionals can be misled.

I gotta admit. This 9-11 conspiracy stuff is such a waste of time. Why haven't these conspiracy theorists come up with elaborate stories about top-secret MI-6 involvement in the London train bombings of last year, or how come Griffin and his acolytes haven't tried to uncover any dark conspiracies involving the Socialist Party of Spain and the Madrid train bombings? Remember, the Socialists won a huge upset victory just days after those horrible events. They benefited from that tragedy. The previous Prime Minister, Aznar, was a right-wing Bush ally, so there's no conspiracy there. (right?) Where's the outrage? Why the focus on 9-11? I think the answer is obvious. In the case of Madrid, the left stood to benefit.

The 9-11 conspiracists loathe the Bush administration. And with good reason. I can understand wanting to come up with something to get rid of them. But, making up loopy conspiracy theories that they orchestrated 9-11 only harms the left. It does incredible damage to the left's reputation and ultimately ends up helping Bush and company. If you want to focus on something, why not focus on ending the Iraq war, or fighting for universal health care, or real campaign finance reform, or speaking out agains the attacks on Social Security and Medicade? Those are real concrete issues, effecting millions. They aren't silly parlor games and time-wasting cloak and dagger stuff.

"Why haven't these conspiracy theorists come up with elaborate stories about top-secret MI-6 involvement in the London train bombings of last year..."

http://www.oilempire.us/london.html

http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/16539

Who needs MI-6 when Mossad and the neocons are the biggest scum on the face of the earth?

"or how come Griffin and his acolytes haven't tried to uncover any dark conspiracies involving the Socialist Party of Spain and the Madrid train bombings?"

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=1966

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3670627.stm

Involve the Socialist Party? Why? It could as well have been a plot to swing the election by your right-wing fuck-buddy Aznar, which then backfired. Them's the breaks

"In the case of Madrid, the left stood to benefit."

Hate the left much, Amero-putz?

"It does incredible damage to the left's reputation"

Among who? American closet-fascist wankers? Most of the world is in our corner.

Those links again don't prove anything. Just more of the same hooey. There's some kind of nonsensene about secret meetings and secret connections that prove absolutely nothing. It is no mystery whatever that British and Spanish intelligence were, and still are, surveilling Islamist extremist groups. They had been monitoring some of these individuals for years. The unusual thing would be if the police and intelligence forces were not relying on informants. That's what intelligence services do. Sometimes the information is valuable, sometimes not. Human intelligence is just another tool in the toolbox.

"It could well have been that the right were hoping it would benefit from the bombings". This just proves your ignorance of the political situation there. Aznar tried to blame ETA after the attacks, not Islamic terrorists. Why? Because the Popular Party would be damaged if it turned out that the attacks were from Islamic terrorists. If the POP had a hand in planning it, why wouldn't they have made it look like ETA did it? Or why would they have planned anything at all? The POP was leading in every poll going into the election. They would have won if the bombings didn't take place. They didn't have to do anything. The Socialists won because of the outrage at the POP's putting Spanish forces in Iraq, leading to an Islamist terrorist bombing, which everyone guessed might happen. If anyone stood to gain from a staged bombing, it would have been the Socialists. Well neither the Socialists nor the POP had anything to do with it. It was committed by murderous extremists angry about Spanish troops in Iraq. Same with the London bombings. In fact in both Madrid and London, the murderers were citizens of Spain and Britain of Middle Eastern ancestry. That points to a real problem about home-grown terrorist movements in Europe, not secret government conspiracies. Again only the left loses when Faux-leftists make up ridiculous fairy tales to describe every act of violence in the world. Wouldn't leftists' time be better served living in the real world and fighting for real causes?

No, but they DO expose your own bullshit as less than perfectly airtight, though you're too much of a squirming sewer-rat to acknowledge it. This informer/double-agent undercurrent turns up in "terror attacks" on the West with disturbing regularity. No example is more perfect than the previous attack on the WTC in 1993:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/wtcbomb.html

Don't pull the stunt of bitching about this site. The SOURCE is as solid as it gets.

Why is it your sort can never recall stuff like this? Does it kick your bassinet around too much?

The Western countries, especially the US, are the GRAND MASTERS of both international terrorism and psyops. They literally wrote the books. All people in the 9-11 skeptic camp are doing is acknowledging this massively documented history and saying "uh, let's not leap to conclusions here just cuz the Park Avenue propaganda contractors are pushing us to do that. QUI BONO?" They have excellent reasons for not taking this government's word for anything, but understanding this takes more guts and brains than you apparently have

Some examples of intelligence/military collusion:

SBS Dateline – Inside Indonesia's War on Terror
http://11syyskuu.net/video/terror.wmv

Michael Busse & Rosa Maria Bobbi – Death in Rome
http://11syyskuu.net/video/moro.wmv

BBC Hardtalk – "Kevin Fulton"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsa/n5ctrl/progs/06/hardtalk/fulton10apr.ram

Allan Francovich – The Maltese Double Cross
http://www.indybay.org/uploads/maltese_double_cross.wmv

The History Channel – Anthrax Attacks
http://www.indybay.org/uploads/anthrax_attacks.ram

TV Documentary – Assassination of Russia
http://sf.indymedia.org/uploads/assassinationofrussia.ram

The History Channel – Declassified: Ayatollah Khomeini
http://www.indybay.org/uploads/ayatollah_khomeini.ram

"you're too much of a squirming sewer-rat." Are you for real? What are you 8-years-old? Why not call me a big poopy head? These ridiculous sites are all over the internet and they don't prove anything. Anyone can speculate. But speculation isn't proof. You never answer the question I put forward, so you change the subject to some other conspiracy topic.

You say the US and the West commit terrible crimes. I agree with you and there's plenty of provable, documented cases of that. Places like the National Security archive use FOIA investigations and documentation to provide some valuable information. There's documented proof of Western powers toppling democracies and propping up dictators and getting involved in unnecessary wars. There's documentation to back those facts up. But these conspiracy theories are pure fantasy, made up to entertain certain people.

I don't think you actually believe these crackpot theories. You're just having your jollies. If there were all these bombs being planted and hidden connections and dark backroom plans being made to murder civilians all the time, why would you continue to live in a place like that? It would be so dangerous and insane that it wouldn't be worth living in the US. Yet, I don't see guys like you pulling up the stakes and moving to Iran, Cuba, Libya or someplace else where you would be safe and free and all would be right with the world.

43 years ago, John F Kennedy got blown away by Anglo-American billionaires bent on showing US politicians once and for all who really runs things. I can point you to four unaffiliated, respected historical authors who draw this conclusion, and that's just the authors *I* know about. There are dozens more, I'm sure. Kennedy's assassination marked the end of true democratic rule in this country. If Americans had marched out with torches and pitchforks and asserted their will to get REAL answers about that incident instead of going into a permanent thumb-sucking trance over it, we could have reversed that coup attempt, cleaned the corrupt collaborator scum out of this government, and made a better America than ever, but we totally squandered that opportunity.

Stuff like this DOES matter, it matters enormously.

9-11 has altered the course of history and will continue to do so for decades. Basically US Empire ran out of pretexts for continuing its conquest of the planet when the SU folded in 1989, so they needed a new boogeyman with which to justify endless wars, and now -- hey-hey, wuddayaknow! -- they sure came up with one, didn't they?! The appropriate way for Americans to react to this stunt is not by following along like good brainwashed sheep assholes, but by making it totally backfire, i.e. translating it into another opportunity to rip the corrupt collaborator scum down out of their thrones and decapitate them in the streets. When crypto-monarchists try to manipulate the herd in a given direction for purposes that serve ONLY THEM, the way for people to prove they're not just dumb cows is by understanding exactly what's going on and moving in the opposite direction. If they want you to be scared and vindictive toward an identified group, you get fearless and ignore the propped up boogeyman and go after the REAL enemy, which is THEM, ***ALWAYS.*** They have been our constant mortal enemies for 10,000 years. It's high time we caught on and finally fed the vultures.

You're that rich complacent asshole lawyer I went around with a few months back on this same subject, aren't you? You wouldn't be an insurance industry lawyer, would you?

My name is Richard Cheney and I'm plotting world domination from my hidden underground lair. Curse you 9-11 conspiracy theorists for exposing my dark plot. Foiled again.

Thanks to those of you who discredited the 9-11 conspiracists. They're always coming on these sites with their nonsense and it's about time people logically dismantled their foolish arguments. When they're challenged they revert to childish name-calling and barely coherent speeches. Thanks again for making them show their true colors. Maybe now serious progressives can use these sites for real organizing and activism.

David Ray Griffin also describes a scene in the emergency operations bunker under the White House on the day of 9-11. Secretary of transportation Norman Mineta testified that Dick Cheney was aware of an aircraft approaching the Pentagon but did nothing. Mineta's testimony was omitted from the 9-11 report.
For more information and a transcript of this talk go to <http://www.911truth.org>
For a broadcast quality mp3 version of the talk click HERE
For a broadcast quality mp3 version of the 29 min question and answer session click HERE
Code A283CD  To order a one hour 20 min. CD click here: $10.00
Code A283tape  To order a one hour tape click here: $8.00
The CD contains 20 extra minutes of Q/A, the audio tape does not
Pacifica KU-Band
Part ONE: Wednesday, April 5, 15:00 EST
Part TWO: Wednesday, April 12, 15:00 EST
Part THREE: Wednesday, April 19, 15:00 EST

Once again, none of that Griffin stuff proves anything.

Why was this important video clip "911 Truth: Facts Foxed" of eight minutes duration or so where Professor Jim Fetzer accuses Cheney of complicity in the 9/11 attacks removed from Youtube?