ALERT!!! Fundamentalist coming for fascist teen mega-pep rally: "BATTLECRY FOR A GENERATIO

http://www.indybay.org/news/2006/03/1809014_comment.php#1809071

"Where would your gifts and talents be most effective? Take a look at the opportunities that are available and choose where you believe the Lord wants to use you this year!"

Or perhaps you could simply go about your business and leave them alone? Or is this really too much to ask of you busy, busy protesters? They have the right to be hear. It's called free speech. And SURPRISE! It's not just for you.

"Or perhaps you could simply go about your business and leave them alone? "

When counterprotesters show up at anti-war or Palestinian righst protests and are diruptful thats free speech, but any attempt to counter protest a US Taliban gathering is opposed to free speech?

Do you consider groups like Free Republic and Protest Warriors to be fundamentally opposed to free speach for protesting against protests?

Counterprotesting is just as much a matter of free speech as protesting.

'free speech' describes the relationship between the government and citizens. Different groups of citizens aren't required to politely sit while others are speaking, and can even choose not to listen or to respond to the first speaker. It's only police who legally are not able to act like the hook on The Gong Show, and describe who is permitted to speak, where, and how.

Is this the New Crusades or what?

The religious right has been pushing for political power for decades. They've made enormous gains since Baby Bush took office. Abstinence only is the only allowed sex education in many schools and clinics. South dakota outlawed abortion and now anti-reproductive rights justices are the majority on the Supreme Court. Not all Christians want to turn America into a theocracy, not even all evangelicals do but a lot of them do and they're in positions of power now, even in the military.
I think everyone has a right to believe whatever they want, no matter how irrational it is. But they don't have the right to impose their beliefs on others. These people do see it as a battle, we should too. If we don't fight back they will steamroll over what is left of our rights. That's why I'll be out there on Friday. Polly

Hi all,

This is Mat from Third Way Peace and Justice Fellowship. Some of you may know me and may have heard of my group. I have probably marched with some of you on both " permitted" and break-away marches, and I may have even done civil disobedience with you. For those of you who don't know me, I am an evangelical, born again Christian, and Third Way is an evangelical Christian peace and justice group. We believe that Jesus is the son of God, that he is God, and that he is the only way to have a true relationship with God, to be truly purified and have real life, and to a better society. It is because of this, that we believe that ESSENTIAL to this is liberation for poor and oppressed people, working against ALL forms of violence and oppression, be it person on person, community on community, nation on nation, etc. We believe that in the light of Jesus, the full revelation of God, that ALL war and violence is wrong. Therefore, we are against the war in Iraq and any other war, and we even want to abolish the military. We are against greed and laissez-faire capitalism, and we are against the exploitative and imperialistic genocidal actions of the U.S. empire against indigenous peoples, peoples of colour, and working and poor people, from before it's beginnings in 1776 until now. We believe that the U.S. has violated God's laws and commands in numerous, extremely serious ways. We believe that as Christians, we must take to the streets and demand and cry out for justice and peace and an end to this right-wing 200+ year old aparthied state, and that we must always be outspoken against injustice and demand peace and justice everywhere. Our beliefs are and have been common among many Christians such as the pre-constantinian church, the Quakers, the Mennonites, the Bretheren, the Moravians, and Pentecostal denominations such as the Church of God, Church of God in Christ, and Assemblies of God (which were against war and were pacifists until recently, due to FBI intimidation and infiltration, but many individual Pentecostals are pacifists and are working to bring pacifism and objection to war back into the official guidelines of these denominations.) In addition, many, many evangelical Christians share our views, but unfortunately, they're not covered much be the media. Third Way is a part of the Pentecostal Charismatic Peace Fellowship. our website is http://www.thirdway.cc . A couple individual Christians whom we have a lot of respect for and agree with are Martin Luther King Jr., Leo Tolstoy, and Archbishop Monsignor Romero of El Salvador, to name a few.
I guess I'm writing because I think people get the impression from the name " Battlecry" that this is a pro-war, right-wing political event. As a Christian progressive, I can tell you that from what I've read and heard from people in my church, it is niether. It is simply a youth prayer gathering. The idea is to get together and pray and worship and fellowship and share ideas and experiences about how youth can reach their peers for Christ, thus true life and a wonderful relationship with God. This, as a progressive Christian, I agree with. I believe we all need Jesus, and I fully support the even as a gathering to seek God's help in brining people to Christ. However, sharing the gospel and people to Christ does NOT mean people becoming right-wing pro-war and pro-US etc. It simply means people accepting Christ as their Lord and Saviour. Political beliefs are something that the Holy Spirit speaks to each individual on, and it is something that each individual Christian has different opinions about. I personally believe that true Christianity tends to lean more toward a leftist tendency and is against all war and violence- those are my convictions. Others may disagree with me. There are many evangelical leaders who agree with me, and many who don't. However, we agree on one thing- that Jesus is God and we all need him, and he loves us so intimately, beyond imaginable, that he wants us to live with him forever in a loving relationship with him, with abundant life, in this life and in the life to come. We believe that God loves all individuals this way, and that he just wants everyone to choose him, recognize who he is, recognize and admit they're faults and imperfections and that they need him, and cast themselves onto him and give themselves to him. As believers in Christ, we believe that God speaks through us to others about this wonderful, true life and relationship, asking them to come home to him. That's what this event is about- that's all. There will be people there with many different political opinions, and many of whom will personally agree with my views, many who won't, many in between, and many who aren't sure or aren't into politics. As far as the name " Battlecry" goes, it's reffering to spiritual battle, because we believe that there is a spiritual realm, and that since God cast out a third of the angels who rebelled against him many, many years ago, the fallen angels have been attacking God and his kingdom and his creation, especially people, and a war has been going on. In order to get back at God, these spirits attack and oppress his most loved creation, people, to decieve them, blind them, and stop them from coming to God and to keep them oppressed. Therefore, as Christians, when God leads, we war in the spirit, against spiritual entities and strongholds ( sinful patterns, mentalities, etc.) that hold people down and oppress them. We do this in prayer and by God's guidance, praying for people to know God, to deepen our relationship with God, and warring in the spirit against spiritual strongholds and attacks on others and on ourselves as well. The battlecry is a cry to battle in the spirit against these forces and strongholds holding people down from knowing Christ and true life and freedom. It's not about physical war and politics.
That said, I don't think that this is a good event to protest. The Third Way convenor and I will be at these events passing out our literature because we believe that there will be individuals who will agree with us, and may get involved in our movement. For Third Way, this looks like a great event to flyer to both educate our fellow believers and to get more Christians involved in the movement for peace and justice. I think many will be interested. Should there be any theology mentioned that we don't agree with, we can address it to individuals through conversation and our materials. Among believers, any wrong theology is best addressed by fellow believers, and as believers, we tend to listen more to other believers. Therefore, I feel like addressing any wrong theology in such a situation is our job ( that of Third Way-like Christians) than that of outsiders, because it would be a family issue to be dealt with by family members, which we at Third Way do among our brothers and sisters in Christ. Thank you.

God Bless,
Mat

What's your take on abortion and queerness?

god is the fellow who is responsible for all this SHIT, right?

clinton - starved half a million children to death in iraq - WHERE WAS GOD???
bush - bombs iraq, occupies iraq, sprays radioactive DU all over iraq - WHERE WAS GOD???
the shoah - WHERE WAS GOD???
the nakba - WHERE WAS GOD???
9/11 -- WHERE WAS GOD???

if i ever met your fucking god, i would be morally obliged to assasinate the fucker. god is the fucking enemy of humanity.

Ron Luce is one slippery guy. Try to find an out and out quote of what he's about- it's not easy unless you go to the materials he sent out to his followers:

His words:
From Battlecry founder Ron Luce:
"I wanted to inform you of another way that we can all make a statement for this generation to the entire northwest region and even the entire country..."

"Please prayerfully consider coming early and gathering for this pre-event Battlecry Rally at San Francisco’s City Hall and have your teens participate as we pray for the northwest region, our nation, and this generation. (These are the very city hall steps where several months ago ***gay marriages*** were celebrated for the entire world to see)."

"Try to imagine a society that mocks the fact that “under God”was ever even in our Pledge of Allegiance. Try to imagine the motto “In God we trust” taken off our money. Imagine all references to Christ and His cross removed from all emblems and city logos. Try to imagine a world where a pastor can go to jail for saying homosexuality is wrong. Current news stories confirm that these unfortunate events are already happening here and in other nations
around the world."

Take a close look at these "Battle Cry" people - they've long been around in the form of Teen Mania Ministries, led by Ron Luce for almost twenty years now, running "Acquire the Fire" youth conventions all over the country and Canada for almost as long. See that they're closely aligned with characters like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and Ted Haggard, all of whom have spoken at their events, along with others like convicted Watergate felon Charles Colson. They've run pretty much under the radar, out of sight of the media and even oppo researchers who follow the so-called "Religious Right" for all that time, so perhaps it's hard to characterize exactly who they are and what they do.

But I'll point out what I've seen and what I know firsthand. They teach young people the basic foundation on which the so-called "Religious Right" is built, which I would instead call the foundation of a new order, a "Biblical America" in which the sole basis of all governance and social interaction is their particular interpretation of the Bible. They contrive the cosmic battle between themselves and a personal Satan, teach the all-or-nothing, you're either with us or against us framework, which is of course, as it always has been, bogus. They teach this Manichean conflict as a legitimate way of framing and understanding all difficulty, whether in one's personal life, or politically, or in national or international events.

From there it is simply a matter of targeting, and this so-called "Battle Cry" campaign, launched with a book and other published materials from Ron Luce, conflates two things: the perennial frustration some have with youth culture, its media and social conventions framed as an imminent threat to a whole generation of teenagers, and the selling of conversion to their brand of Christianity as both a solution to this bogus alleged threat and as insurance against the alleged imminent decline of evangelical Christianity (never mind its influence is greater than ever before). They talk about how in the future only four percent of adults will be hardcore evangelicals just like them, while conveniently ignoring the fact that already barely a few percent of today's adults truly qualify as such hardcore evangelicals.

So they are truly manufacturing a problem (teens in existential crisis) to provide their solution, while providing a solution (religious conversion) in need of a problem to justify themselves running around trying to obtain religious conversion from
American teenagers. Such that over the long term, young people converted or re-committed in a large highly emotional and memorable event, skillfully manipulated by adults, will stick with the movement, its goals and targets, many of which are named later since what they're doing is laying the groundwork for what comes later.

Which for me is the point: that even though this event is part of a system that produces the anti-gay, anti-abortion fanatics of tomorrow, an effective counter-strategy for today is to address what they're actually doing; I've sometimes called this "receive, readback and reject. The point is to reject what they're selling right now, and right now they're selling religious conversion or their equivalent of it (specifically, to be a 'follower of Christ') as a one-size-fits-all solution to all problems, individual, social or political; freedom of conscience, pluralism and secularism be damned. Demonstration of a clear understanding of what they're doing followed by rejection of it (I call this "receive, read-back and reject") has a devastating effect on them compared to rote repetition of the usual chants, signs, etc. They won't change what they're doing unless they hear a clear "no" to what they're selling right now.

Also keep in mind that some anonymous commenters here who have showed up just as I started to write this may be part of the Battle Cry crew and may be, as their own videos say, "looking for a fight" by playing up Ron Luce's alleged "homophobia." There is no point in giving them exactly the conflict that they're expecting, and they have well-rehearsed answers ready for when they're called that. Better to put them on the spot and get them to admit that what they want is a drab, anxious Christian monoculture to the exclusion of pretty much most of life as you know it!

One other thing: Chas Bowie of the Portland Mercury covered an earlier stop on this year's Battle Cry tour.

that's interesting to hear that Pentacostals and and assembly of God are pacifist. My friend's family is mennonite, and he doesn't believe in god but is culturally mennonite (mainstream, not old order mennonite), and before I met him, it hadn't been presented to me that the defining feature of the anabaptists is their pacifism and nonacceptance of the authority of government, which is why they were driven out of central Europe in the 1500s when monarchs couldn't draft them. The rejection of modern technologies is really only a secondary part of life. Also, humbleness is an important value, and amish + old order mennonite don't look down on people outside the religion, although the amish and mennonites split a long time ago over the issue of shunning - which mennonites don't use against members who spite god. I guess quakers aren't antigay, but mennonites keep all these literal interpretations of the bible (which is sort of silly because it's written by man, not god. God would not require people to be literate in order to achieve a full relationship with him because writing is a technology that slowly developed, and was never used in nonagricultural societies until recently. Not to mention, some people are dyslexic or too young to read). Anyway, my friend's uncle was gay and many in his family didn't like that, and he got HIV in he navy which he joined for some reason, and then he slowly died while sharing a room with my friend during junior high.

"Also keep in mind that some anonymous commenters here who have showed up just as I started to write this may be part of the Battle Cry crew and may be, as their own videos say, "looking for a fight" by playing up Ron Luce's alleged "homophobia." There is no point in giving them exactly the conflict that they're expecting"

"Anonymous" here. What did I say about humor rather than confrontation? Paranoia is not going to solve anything. Rational organizing is. That's all I'm saying. I don't know who Mike Doughney is even if he posts his email address, and I don't have a problem with that, as long as you express yourself in an intelligent manner. Even if you're on the other side.

"humor rather than confrontation?" Check.
"Paranoia is not going to solve anything." Check.
"Rational organizing is." Check, when and if it's called for.

Let's keep in mind, unless you identify yourself (and even then) it's all just characters on a screen. You said nothing about humor upthread, most noticable to me is that you quoted Luce from a document that, you say, is sent to their "followers" but isn't on their website as far as I can tell. No problem with that either, it's just that, there are better ways to approach these guys besides calling them 'homophobes' if that's the argument they're most prepared to deflect both one-on-one and in the media. That is, if you're truly opposing this crowd at some level... again, I have no idea who you are, and anybody who feels the urge can post here. No offense meant or taken.

Take a second and look at theanswerisno.org for one example of the kind of work I've done in countering a group with a similar worldview that landed in front of a different City Hall for most of a week.

http://battlecry.com/documents/Registration_Kit_Manual_2006_SBC_Park.pdf

good website. My only issue would be that this took place in Ohio. In SF, I think it would be very difficult to get activists on any given issue to wrap themselves in the flag. The flag is a symbol that has been co-opted by those who wish to deny certain basic human rights: the right to marry the partner of your choice (regardless of gender), to adopt kids, to have access to a broad array of reproductive options (including birth control, emergency contraception and abortion).

Also Operation Rescue's tactics are old school. There's a whole new brand they're selling now.

While your technique may work well for the center of the country, activists here are so fed up, they're more interested in talking revolution than going the centrist route of the Democratics and "taking back patriotism" from the rightists.

As to anonymity, don't knock it. Have you never been surveilled by law enforcement or infiltrated by the other side? Maybe now I'm sounding paranoid, but in fact I'm not. It happens.

let me tell u what ron luce is doing, he is doing a amazing job, i am one of his guys that go to his school in texas, if u at all read battlecry, u would see what he see, that he is the man of the hour, alot of kids and teenagers have made turned their hearts from satan to jesus who is the healer and the savior of the world. and about the homosexuals, i love them, but like God my father, he loves them too, but he hates their sin, God is love, think about it, i don't want to go any further if i did, i might regret it later, but remeber john 3:16 for God so loved the world, that he would put his only son, he put his only son on that cross for you guys that would be saved from destruction in hell, the reason that God made u was that he would have fellowship, that was the whole point. peace out. praise Yeshua

let me tell u what ron luce is doing, he is doing a amazing job, i am one of his guys that go to his school in texas, if u at all read battlecry, u would see what he see, that he is the man of the hour, alot of kids and teenagers have made turned their hearts from satan to jesus who is the healer and the savior of the world. and about the homosexuals, i love them, but like God my father, he loves them too, but he hates their sin, God is love, think about it, i don't want to go any further if i did, i might regret it later, but remeber john 3:16 for God so loved the world, that he would put his only son, he put his only son on that cross for you guys that would be saved from destruction in hell, the reason that God made u was that he would have fellowship, that was the whole point. peace out. praise Yeshua

I just wan't ya'll to know that J esus loves eahc and every one of you. And one day you will have to bow down and worship him. if you don't want to right now that's fine, but one day you will, and you will ahve wished it was now! So just be prepared. And last but definantely not least you may not agree with what they're doing but at least don't bother them and leave them alone!

What this site is saying is completely false.

I'm sitting at AT&T Field right now, and I'm working this event. "BattleCry" is about getting this generation back. Look at all the crime and filth we have in America; the generation running this country has 35% Bible-believing Christians. The next generation will have approx. 4%. How bad do you think this country wqill get? Well, "BattleCry" is about turning this around, and reviving the generation!!

This country is the greatest country on Earth, and that's because it was built on Judeo-Christian beliefs and values. That's why it is so good. We need to get back to those values.

I strongly support Teen Mania, Ron Luce, and the BattleCry whole-heartedly and I'm 18 years old. I want my generation to be back to how it should be. And I love Jesus.

When you say "back" do you mean to another time in history? World history? US history?

As for your "oh my god" 4% figure, where in the heck did that come from? Seems to me the Christian fundamentalists like yourself are breeding just fine in this country and we can look forward to many more generations of backwards creationist, gay hating, women fearing theology in this country.

Filth? Are you talking about people or litter? Could you be talking about the capitalist ruin of God's creation?

Lastly , why exactly do you think Judeo-Christian values make this country great? We've got some of the most vocal self-professed Christians running this country right now, and look at the war, the waste of resources, the neglect of poor people and the environment, the growing debt that will bankrupt your GENERATIONS for generations to come. How exactly does your blind faith in Jesus help America?

Well, if you don't want people to bother your proselytizing and evangelical ways of spreading the "good word," can you agree to keep your imaginary God out of my mother's, sister's, and girlfriend's womb? Can you let gay people live their lives as equals among us?

You back off with your homophobic and anti-woman laws and we'll let you hold your snake-charming, tent revivals in peace.

Deal?

Wow... I sit in Amazment how far America has drifted , you can study history all you want and it still points...in one direction, most of you are good people seeking truth ...your shocked when you see horrific things displayed on the news...most people are caught in a bubble...they can't see past there own life There eyes have been blinded to the truth,

Heavenly Father I pray all that read this would be inlightened by the power of the holy spirit and someone somewhere would see truth as it is displayed before them my hope is not to accuse but to let someone see that America is filled with real people with real issues and real problems....We do have real solutions for those problems ....and real anwsers to lifes oh so real questions someone is going to read this and see hate and close mindedness... I'm writing this and telling you that God loves you , There is more than just what you can see , There is a war going on and we are right in the middle please just wait one min. and think .....
what do you need to hear.....what are you doing Inside we all have realness how far do you have to go before you find it.

you have what you want and we do what we want we (as Christians {true followers of Christ}) we seek to die daily so that the good, perfect, and pleaseing will of the Father will be advanced
My name is Tony and I would love your e-mails Trob104257 [at] aol.com

You are barely literate and speak of "we seek to die daily".

Damn.

Teen mania? Battle cry? Die daily?!?

I feel another Jonestown massacre coming on.

I'd laugh if it wasn't so scary.

Wow. Why are we oversees fighting fundamentalism?

Wow...As I read through the above comments, I can begin to understand. Does anybody understand what truth is? Does anyone even care?
I am a Christian. yes. it is true. The definition of a Christian is "follower of Christ." Not "church attendee" not "reading the Bible" not "singing hymns" not "my mom is a Christian" and certainly not "I am a Christian because I 'prayed a prayer!'"
Jesus came to serve. He came to die. Why? Because we, humanity, screwed up. Now, don't be angry, because I am just explaining what Christian theology is, so if you don't believe it, that's okay. I am just trying to correct some misinformation...

God created the world. God created man, humankind, whatever. He placed them (man and woman) in a perfect environment. There was no death, pain, sickness, or disease. Period. And God walked with us, visibly, perhaps. (Don't give up on me now, keep reading, yeah?)
He gave man one command. Do not eat from one tree (but they could eat whatever else they wanted). Man ate. The wrong tree. On purpose. They disobedied God. Hence, the world changed. (and everyone since then has disobeyed God at some point as well.)

What now? God is perfectly just, perfectly holy. He will not tolerate disobedience to His commands. But He loves...so much!
For whatever reason, God's reason, the only thing that can remove our disobedience is death.
So He died. For us. Me. My junk, my decisions. Yours too.

It is only by accepting this that one can be "saved" or whatever you want to call it. Intolerant? by choice, perhaps, but Jesus invites, yearns, for all to come to Him. But He will NOT force. You, whoever you are, have free choice. Because robots aren't what He wants. You can choose to serve Him, or yourself. You are free.

Has this been abused? Certainly, over and over again. But please, do not judge God by the performance of "Christians." Being a Christian means following Him, not just providing lip service.

So what is Ron Luce? A Christian. he loves you, all of you, especially the ones that hate him the most. So does Jesus (and Ron is NOT Jesus, mind you!). Ron wants my generation to serve Jesus, not to call themselves Christians and serve themselves. For heaven's sake, if you want to serve yourself and live how you want, do it! but don't call yourself a Christian in the process, because you are not. that would be called a "hypocrite" in fact. isn't that what you hate? liars? yeah, so does Jesus. and they hated Him back. but you would have to read the Bible to know that little detail. maybe you have. I don't know.

If you have questions or anything, let me know. I get mixed up explaining things sometimes. I like to know what "the other side" thinks, whether or not I agree, because it makes me think more about my argunments. Do they really hold up, or am I believing a lie, etc. So, say something. Thanks. Peace.

And I'm not interested in it. I never departed from it, I've never been a part of it, and i nvere will be. you may insist God loves me, but that has more meaning for you. I admire Jesus's teachings and really love reading the Gnostic Gospels, and prefer to approach Jesus, and other familiar historical figures on my own terms. (he'd appreciate that...He understood dissent, that's for sure)
But I find the notions of redemption and ressurection (which are not owned by the Christians) to be more meaningfully illustrated by other symbols and traditions.
What I am interested in is how well you (by you, I mean Christians) can adapt to co-existing with non christians. Can you survive in your faith without mandating attendance at your churces? Without public money being spent to promote Christiantity? How well versed are you with other's religeons? We live in a secular, pluralistic society. So...this isn't about you clarifying Jesus's intentions, or Christianity's aims and principles. It's about you showing -in every way you can- that you can pursue your own faith regardless of others thoughts feelings or attachments to it.
The degree to which the explicitly homophobic and anti abortion/anti choice rhetoric has been submerged in the press packets sent out speak volumes about your intentions.
Did you read this whole thisng/ I read all of yours.
Finally can you tell me the significance of the chalice in earth based religeons? Do you know what the Tibetan prayer flag seeks to do? Why do Sikhs prohibit the cutting of their hair? And what does Namaste mean?

To all "Christians",
I am a traditionalist of Native American decent. To me, christianity is tainted. Sure Jesus was a great teacher, unfortunately, his flock weren't good learners. For starters, we as Native People were slaughtered in his name if we didn't bring an alotment of gold to Columbus and his men. They cut off our ears, they cut off our hands all in the name of your "god". How do you feel about that? How can you defend your religeon? "We need to live more like Jesus", I hear Christians say all the time. How are Christians in this material society living more like Jesus? I see very few examples. In fact hippys living in their VW vans are following the teachings of Jesus more closely than the vast majority of the "christians" that sit in church every Sunday.
Indians were taken from their traditional homelands in the name of Manifest Destiny. "god" gave you the right to decimate our people, for your own benefit. You enslaved us to work in your missisons, where your disease ravaged our bodies. All of this in the name of your "god". That doesn't sound very christian-like to me?
If Jesus ever does come back to earth, the Christians better watch out! He's going to be pissed off that you used his name to do all kinds of bad things.
What athority do I have? I was sent off to a Native American boarding school where I learned the ins and outs of your hateful religeon for 11 years. It seems that there were not enough resourses on the res where you put me.

I definitely respect all of what you guys are saying and I think I even understand most of it. I wanted you all to know something though. What we are doing at Teen Mania is not about controlling the world or turning everyone into a "God Chaser" or "Bible Thumper". Someone said something in an earlier post about "where was God when all of those bad things happened".........if you haven't noticed, things keep happening in this nation as God keeps getting pushed out. People are more and more turning to their own religion and finding their own peace. However things are not getting better! Teen Mania is a NON-DENOMINATINOAL ministry. If you read the Teen Mania website you will find their doctrinal beliefs and what they believe.......nondenominational means that we believe the bible as the living breathing word of God.......If you will look at the people that will be at the Battlecry event, you will notice that all of them come from different backgrounds, denominations, histories and what not........All they want is to be heard. Most of the comments that I have read on this website are about freedom of speech which I also believe in but someone else put it the right way, maybe not in the best terms, but its true that freedom of speech is for EVERYONE....not just the ones who want to spread their opinion. Teen Mania does not try to stop people from sharing what they believe, but simply to encourage them to look at things in a different perspective.......why do you feel that this battlecry thing is a bad thing? Why do you feel like it will inflict upon your values? If you don't believe in it but you do believe in freedom of speech, something has to give because if you show up to protest, then your no better than the ones that you are complaining about.

All I am saying basically is I support the Battlecry campaign simply because I believe in Jesus Christ and what the bible says. I believe that the youth of this nation are getting swept under the rug and if you look at the future, these teenagers will run this nation......why would you want a nation where sex and drugs and murder are all completely legal? Why would you want a nation that people are afraid to even live? What is the point?

All of the speakers at the battlecry and that support Teen Mania might not necessarily follow the same beliefs, however they all agree with the one principal point and that is that the world around is falling away and someone has to step up and do something or its only gonna get worse.

Before you go to protest this weekend, I encourage you to really think, and I mean REALLY truly think about the point that you are trying to get across, is it really worth it? What are you afraid of happening and is that even something that is worth it?

May Jesus above all things and above all people be glorified.............I pray that for this weekend and I know that I stand in agreement with Teen Mania, that we may not even be known this weekend but truly that all that see and hear will know Jesus Christ.

I just want to say that I am in total agreement with what Mr. Luce teaches. I also want everyone to know that I AM a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ. There is no one else that I would ever follow. Think about it for a sec - what has this country been based on? Morals, right? Most of our laws used to be based off of foundational moral rules which are universal to all people. Now, it seems that they are based simply on what feels right to certain groups of people. If anyone wants to disagree with me, thats fine. However, what do you think our country would look like if all people based their decisions on whatever felt good at the time?

Do you respect our right to disagree? That is the point. I don't hate you. But if you come to my City saying that Christianity is the only religion and we must all bow down, well that is childish, and it is also offensive to others who believe in other faiths, or who don't believe in God.

The statement above is pretty vague. "I just want to say that I am in total agreement with what Mr. Luce teaches." What does he teach you about tolerance? What does he teach you about loving relationships between people who are not heterosexual and what rights they do or do not have?

Man, nobody is coming to your city and telling you to bow down to our religion......at least not us.......we are coming to give teenagers another choice.....if you believe in something else, thats fine bro, we hear it everysingle day but its time to give another option. We are not expecting you to submit to us or bow down and make you a soldier of Christ. THAT IS NOT THE GOAL! Why would you keep others from hearing though? People can believe what they want to believe, that is their choice...and your choice. All we are asking of you is to allow people to make that choice for themselves after hearing from both sides.......

This is fascism, right in your face, plain as day.

Hitler used to wrap himself in fake piety all the time, just like Bush.

In Greece under the CIA-installed 'reign of the generals,' minors were required by law to attend Christian services every week. Those advocating freedom of religion were silenced with torture.

In Brazil under the CIA-installed fascist dictator Castelo Branco, similar policies were referred to collectively as the country's "moral rehabilitation" program.

Now we have dominionist maniacs in the US saying EXACTLY the same thing:

"Reclaim the values that made this nation great."

Actually, bug-eyed Bible nuts DIDN'T make this nation great. We have Enlightenment-era free-thinking modernists like Paine, Jefferson, and Franklin to thank for any such claim. The bug-eyed nuts NEVER would have gone for state-church separation, freedom of religion, or freedom of anything else for that matter. Remember Salem?

Robertson, Falwell, Luce, Dobson, etc. all have Dubya's anal sphincter clamped around their necks. They're the religious wing of the social engineering effort to realize full-blown fascism here. That's what this sort of glitzy industrialized evangelism has always been, going right back to the guy who kicked it off: Billy Graham, a real cozy buddy of the Dulles Bros., i.e the Rockefellers' main moles during the initial heyday of US crypto-fascism under Eisenhower. These Vegas-style mass-conversion ops are VERY expensive, and they don't begin to pay for themselves.

Theocracy is EXACTLY what this is about:

http://www.theocracywatch.org/taking_over.htm

These fuckers are SCARY AS SHIT!! Just look at any one of their glassy-eyed dronings above and you'll know. These are the 'Borg (apologies to nessie).

"Why would you keep others from hearing though? People can believe what they want to believe, that is their choice...and your choice. All we are asking of you is to allow people to make that choice for themselves after hearing from both sides......."

Of course they can. And we wish to be heard too. That's not a problem is it? I think it's quite reasonable.

I didn't get a response to my question on Mr. Luce's teachings. I'm really interested to know how much choice he would allow to lesbians, gays and transgenders. And how much choice he would allow to women. I would appreciate it if you could speak to that question.

I don't understand why you guys are wasting your time with all of this.....If you don't wanna hear about it then don't listen....nobody is demanding that of you.......We are not facists, bigots or anything else.......we believe in something strongly just like you........we may not agree with you but we seriously still do love you as a person and will listen to what you have to say.....what good will it really do to hate you and ignore you?

If you care about our future, then really listen to what is being said instead of making up your own words for it. I encourage all of you to come.....just come and listen, but before you do open your mind or of course its not gonna make sense.

If you just open your eyes, I really believe its not as bad as you make it out to be. Just come and listen and if you don't agree, thats your decision......

FYI Christians are the ones who instilled the church & state seperation (to keep the state out of the church) and I as a Christian fight for freedom of religion. I really hope you will see the freedom in Christ before the end of your days. Our country was founded on Judeo Christian values and the Constitution was made under the expectation that it would be lived out through christian standards. I pray that God would have mercy on you and you would really look into our cultures history before making such statements as you have. Look at our society, do you see anything wrong? Christ is the answer, I pray you receive Him, He does love you and longs to be with you.

"Why would you keep others from hearing though? People can believe what they want to believe, that is their choice...and your choice. All we are asking of you is to allow people to make that choice for themselves after hearing from both sides......."

Of course they can. And we wish to be heard too. That's not a problem is it? I think it's quite reasonable.

I didn't get a response to my question on Mr. Luce's teachings. I'm really interested to know how much choice he would allow to lesbians, gays and transgenders. And how much choice he would allow to women. I would appreciate it if you could speak to that question.

I don't think its unreasonable for you to be heard, I listen to you everyday when I turn on the news or walk outside or listen to the radio......its not unreasonable. I don't agree with you but I do listen to you. Just like you because I don't agree with you, I may try to and share my opinion with you, just like you might for me but if you don't want to hear it then thats fine. All I was saying is that we hear from your side every single day....Teenagers hear it even more.

In response to your question, Mr. Luce does not teach that lesbiens, gays and transgenders people that should die and burn in hell.....he does teach that their choice for lifestyle is wrong and he shares why but I have never once heard him condemn or judge anyone in that lifestyle. I myself have dealt with homosexual tendancies.........I cannot say that I would still believe in what he had to say if all he did was gay bash.....I don't beleive that he does that all. I don't understand what you are saying by what he teaches about choice's to woman.......he preaches what the bible says and that is simply that men are the head of the household.....he does not say that woman don't have a say or a choice or any of that...if you look at our board of directors with Teen Mania, there are 3 woman on it and 6 men, by looking at the staff of Teen Mania, there are 78 female staff members, 51 of which are head staff members! How are you pulling these questions? What makes you think the things that you are asking and for everyone reading this, are you really speaking truth when saying these things about Teen Mania or the battlecry or are you twisting it to make your point or to make yourself sound good? honestly I encourage you to think about that.

I hope this answered your questions....if you have any others, feel free to let me know

Hi everyone. How's it going? I praise God for all of you brothers and sisters preaching the Word here, and I am really thankful for it. Friends, I truly urge you to listen to what my brothers and sisters in Christ have to say here, because they are right- we all need Jesus. He is the only way. I urge you-beg you to seriously think about this and accept Christ as Lord and Saviour, because then that's where the real revolution is. Jesus is infinity + % revolutionary, more revolutionary than any other revolutionary movement ever to take place on earth!!!!!!!! That's how awesome he is. If we all follow Jesus, than, he will work through us for peace and justice, for liberation for the poor and oppressed. By his spirit we will work against violence, war, greed, racism, imperialism, capitalist and economic exploitation and ALL exploitation. God is the ultimate liberator- the liberator of the poor and oppressed! Through Christ, true socialist revolution- a true revolution of peace and justice- a global revolution, will take place. Believe me, or better, believe God who I believe is speaking this through me- I am a non-violent revolutionary socialist, a zapatista, a peace activist, a Native American rights activist- I'm one of the most adamant leftists you'll meet- I speak from the heart, I'm serious, Jesus IS the revolution!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! By following Jesus we can fight the real zapatista/socialist revolution worldwide and fight this oppression and exploitation. Finally, as you can read, I am not one to think that the U.S. is the greatest country in the world, blessed by God as some say. I believe that the U.S. is one of the most right-wing, facist-minded, racist countries in the world built on genocide and slavery of indigenous peoples and African peoples, and slavery and exploitation of working, poor, and people of colour here and abroad. To me, I don't see a difference between the U.S. and Aparthied South Africa, and I'm a born again Christian!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Honestly what are you trying to prove.....for real! What does posting that picture honestly prove to people?

It really doesn't make any sense

Translation:
Oh no, we'd never force ourselves on YOU!! We're going after mixed up kids who don't know any better. Suck 'em and scramble their brains reeeeeel good! Lip-smackin' fresh meat!!!

I love the blatant lies in this article. To begin with they make it seem like all the people gathering there want to start an actual military and make war on islamic countries. The truth is that they are trying to reclaim their own nation for their own values. The person who wrote this article is just as big a bigot as he makes Mr. Luce and the 25,000+ teens who will be attending the event seem.
"The values that the right-wing groups promote include wars against Muslim countries, with young "christian soldiers" doing the fighting..."
This guy definitely deserves a Scott Adams Weasel Award.

Secondly, while there are many "Christian" groups that might genuinely be bigoted the very definition of a Christian SHOULD be a person who loves God and follows the guidelines that He set down that define his character in a broken world. In loving God it is also essential to love others because this is a primary characteristic of God. God may not like what you're doing but he still wants you to know him. If God did not love people who did things that were wrong in his eyes then Jesus would never have come. Most likely the writer believes that humans are a freak incident in a hostile universe (disproved in the 1970s the odds of evolution are beyond contrivance) Christians believe our every breath is a gift from God.

Don't mistake the intent of the Battlecry. It is in large part a call to all Christians to war against ourselves. Too many Christians are living complacent self-centered lives. The point of the Battlecry is to take up God's anthem and to lay our lives down for that purpose. (No not literally sheesh) To live a life worth Jesus dying for! Once we do that, once we finally live what so many claim to believe then massive social upheaval and the correction of our society will take place. There's not much the media can do because these same people will then flood the job market and they can either hire them and conform to the way society is shifting and give up on all the crap they've been feeding us or fold while new companies are started by those people. It's only a matter of time. :-) Have a reovultion.
-Rob

PS- Great book! How Now Shall We Live by Chuck Colson

Like I said before......everyone is to caught up with distorting truth. Instead of making up stuff, give actual truth.......not just what you believe as truth, but truth. If you don't agree with what Ron and Teen Mania are saying, at least they can back it up with the bible. They are not twisting words and statements and reality, they are calling it like it is just by looking at this world. Their whole point of marching on the City Hall steps is to show the government that teenagers are tired of being preyed upon with sex and drugs and all of that junk. This isn't just a myth, its truth, look at MTV.....Look at all of these things....the world is preying upon these kids, Teen Mania and all the supporter's of it are the ones that are trying to open eyes that its only going to get worse.....and that is truth, look at our history, we've only progressively gotten worse to get to where we are now.

So much truth in Rob's comment, the war is not only against this world but against ourselves.......definite truth

Until we can win the battle in ourselves, how can we truly win the battle in this world?

We'd never do such a thing. That's not why we're going nuts on this thread trying to tell you how much Your Savior LLLUUUUUUUUUUVVVVs you!! (can't you just feel his throbbing LLLUUUUUUVVV thrusting into you? Ah rapture! Scream with ecstasy!!) We're just completely forthright and harmless

Thank you so much for your response! I appreciate your comments very much.

Can we be content in a pluralistic society, a society where public monies are not spent promoting our message and church attendance is not mandatory? some cannot, perhaps. but they are wrong...you know that.
And I see your point. And I must confess that I do not know the answers to the last four questions, to my embarrassment. I am currently in an internship program, a Christian one, to be sure, and I have been thinking a lot about some of these things. I am thinking that most American Christians (at least) as a whole, if they do know something about what they believe, know next to nothing about what anyone else does.

And I have been that, and I intend, with all of my heart, to make remedy. I will never be able to know everything about every other belief, but I can learn, as much as possible. I find it silly when people attack Christianity without knowing about it...obviously, most of their points are wrong. And yet seeing myself in the same situation...yes, indeed. bad. :)

So, speaking merely for myself, yes, I can definitely live in that society. no one should be forced into a church or a belief--about anything. and I can. I can live my faith no matter what is said or done to me. there are many, in other countries, mind you, that know that it means physical death to become a Christian, because it is considered illegal. yet, they do it anyway. I am not going to "die," and if I cannot accept criticism, sarcasm, or whatever, then what in the world do I think I am doing? Jesus said to expect those things anyway, so when a Christian gets angry over a disagreement with their belief, I think that they don't know or don't care what the Bible says about that matter.

I expect it. it doesn't surprise me, and I am perfectly willing to hear anyone out on the subject. maybe I won't even say anything back (present situation exempted, of course). 'cause anybody can believe what they want...yes, I believe that this way is the only way, but I also believe that everyone has oppurtunity to decide what they want. when they meet me, that choice is presented, whether through lifestyle (pursuing my own faith) or words (maybe if they ask) and if they hate it...okay. many will, many do. but know what I want. Jesus. (don't laugh too hard, now...I'm serious :)

Hi again. I just wanted to add this article from an evangelical Christian magazine which discusses what I believe is a VERY fundamental part of my faith as an evangelical Christian. I ask that all would read it and seek the true Jesus. I think and hope many of you like it, because I feel it represents many evangelical Christians whose voices are not often covered by the media. Read and enjoy.

God Bless,
Mat



FAITH IN ACTION



'Free at Last'

by Rose Marie Berger

I woke at 5:30 a.m. to the news on the BBC that the remaining three Christian Peacemakers held captive in Iraq and finally been released. I knelt by the side of my bed and wept - with the joy of liberation and the grief of the suffering these brothers have endured for the sake of the cross.



For nearly four months, as a global community, we have prayed our way down this via dolorosa. We have prayed for Jim Loney, Norman Kember, Harmeet Sooden, and Tom Fox's safety and protection. We have prayed for the state of the soul of their captors. We have mourned and cried out to God when Tom's broken body was found on the airport road in Baghdad. We have prayed and labored for the thousands of detained, disappeared, kidnapped, abused and tortured Iraqis. And now, we break our Lenten fast from the resurrection word, and say "Alleluia! Alleluia! Our brothers are free at last!"


As the news of their experience unfolds it will no doubt be controversial that the release of these pacifists was catalyzed by a multi-national military force. No doubt, some will use it as proof that Christian nonviolence and unarmed peacemaking are a fool's errand. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Christian Peacemaker Teams have done more to advance "liberty and justice for all" without ever wielding a weapon than all our "shock and awe" campaigns.


Every Christian is charged with resisting evil, but none are given the right to kill. Jesus did not kill anyone, nor threaten to kill anyone if they didn't follow his command. His strength and persuasion were in his spiritual authority, not in the weapon.


The "peace" that comes through military action is a weak creature that develops through submission and fear, not the deep peace of Christ rooted in righteousness and justice. Conversely, "sword of righteousness" wielded by the Christian peacemaker is a metaphor for the Word of God that cuts through the gauze of worldly custom; a sword to prick the conscience; a choice that must be made to take up the cross of Christ.


We pray for the soldiers who risked their lives to free Jim, Norman, and Harmeet. We give thanks to God that, through excellent intelligence work and skilled operations, they manifested an unprecedented respect for CPT's commitment to nonviolence by rescuing them without a shot being fired and without injury to any parties. Like the soldier in Matthew 8: 5-13, they too were able to participate in the moment of God's liberation. We pray that they will be convicted by the spiritual authority of these brave Christian peacemakers and with the wisdom and knowledge of Christ who said "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you."


It would be easy to pit the peacemaker against the soldier - but it would be wrong to do so. There are soldiers who serve "the least of these" in Iraq. It was an unknown American soldier who decided to drape Tom Fox's casket with a flag to honor his sacrifice. And there are peacemakers who thrive more on their own anger, self-righteousness, and personal purity, than on authentic deeply rooted sacrificial love.



"In the Exodus-Sinai tradition," writes black liberation theologian James Cone, "Yahweh is disclosed as the God of history, whose revelation is identical with [God's] power to liberate the oppressed. There is no knowledge of Yahweh except through [God's] political activity on behalf of the weak and the helpless of the land."


We rejoice that our brothers have been "brought out" of and liberated from their captivity by the God of history - working through our human capacities. We celebrate with their families, loved ones, and colleagues around the world. We give thanks for all those who risked their lives to speak out on behalf of the Christian peacemakers - especially those in the Muslim world. Now, also, we are free to grieve completely for Tom Fox, who laid down his life for his friends.


We revel in our knowledge of a God who "acts on behalf of the weak and the helpless of the land" - a living God of history. It is this living God that gives us the strength and commitment to continue advocating for the the estimated 14,000 Iraqis held in prison by Coalition, Multi-National and Iraqi forces, of whom, according to Coalition intelligence officers, "between 70 percent and 90 percent of the persons deprived of their liberty in Iraq had been arrested by mistake."


Jim, Harmeet, and Norman: Welcome home.


Rose Marie Berger, an associate editor of Sojourners, is a Catholic peace activist and poet.

Make that "Have a nice revolution."

Also I attend Teen Mania's Honor Academy as well and nowheres else have a I found a more loving bunch of folks ANYWHERES so please don't cal them bigots when your own beliefs are as much a faith issue as our own.


PS-Hey Old Man River :-) See you at 10!

Oh, I know you psychos REAL good! I spent my entire childhood around you. You have no idea how willfully stupid and self-centered you are. Oh yeah, I KNOW it feels good. Just like being a little baby again, all safe and warm suckin momma's tit, uh-huh. Feeling good doesn't make it true. Having your parents spoon-feed it to you before you can think doesn't make it true either. Nor does rebelling against your atheist parents by taking flight into it. These and other variants of purely emotional catatonia are really all your "Truth" represents

I agree with the above comment SUPPORTING battle cry. I also work for BATTLE CRY, and am currently at AT&T park. I am a woman and totally agree with the positions that BATTLE CRY takes. We, as BATTLE CRY, do not hate women (as shown in the picture posted, we love them. We are here to fight for the values that once made this country great. We ned to do something to change the direction we are heading as a nation, as this is what we feel will help to get us back to our core vaues!

"In response to your question, Mr. Luce .... does teach that their choice for lifestyle is wrong and he shares why..."

Why? And why are you so vague about saying why? Homosexual tendencies are nothing to be ashamed of. Come to our Pride parade and you will see why.



"I don't understand what you are saying by what he teaches about choice's to woman.......he preaches what the bible says and that is simply that men are the head of the household."

Again, why? Because it's in the bible? If it's a Christian household, do watcher want (just like the other fundamentalists). But the rest of us aren't going back to the dark ages just because you believe the Bible literally in every detail.

Fundamentalists (which I have to think Ron Luce is) seem to want everyone to believe the same way. AND YES I know you say he doesn't, but he does. He really does.

Do you not get that? He claims this imaginery 4% is threatened and he wants to increase the number of people who agree with his views. So he can do what? So he can put Judeo-Christian theocracy at the forefront over all other diverse views and opinions?

Hey, I apologize if I seemed to insult you. didn't mean too. I was more putting myself down there, for when I do the same thing. doesn't make it right, no matter who is doing it. and if you are attacking, and you have seen it, and you do know it, okay. it's okay.

I am sorry that you have seen the arrogance and the hypocrisy, because it is there (obviously). but... my parents are Christians. and they have been hypocrites. many times. all of the most painful woundings in my life were from them, not "unbelievers" or "atheists" or whatever.
believe me when I say that, for me, personally, my faith is not because of them, necessarily, but in spite of them. because Jesus was faithful to me when they weren't.

I don't know if that made sense at all, but I do apologize for that sentence in my previous post. I didn't mean it like that.

Hey check out the last post (mine, anyway)

I just looked through again, and believe me (or not) that it doesn't always feel good. if I believed in Jesus for feelings, I would be long gone, long ago. I find a lot of joy with Him, but my life, my situation, is far from perfect. and it's okay. while I am here, I will have trouble, period. Jesus promised that too. He never said (and you probably know this) that following him would make you happy. His way is hard...it always has been. that is why He said that few find the way to life, because it is narrow, and hard. not because He hid it, but because most don't want it, (for different reasons than you, perhaps) (I am not calling anybody a wimp, here!).

most prefer the easy way, or the one that brings the most personal happiness (not all, I know).
I find much happiness here, but only because of Jesus, not always feelings, or circumstances.

whatever. that didn't make sense maybe...but I know Who I serve. and He is good.

p.s. I am away from the computer 'till Sunday morning ish, so if anyone replies back, I won't see it 'till then. thanks anyway, and thank any of you who have commitment to seeking truth, whatever that may be... Peace

TW.....I agree with what Kia said....nothing about being a Christian SHOULD be comfortable....If I found comfort in Christianity, then I wouldn't really be what the bible calls a Christian.

Man, I'm sorry if you were or have been offended by "Christians".......some people carry the name but don't live the life....I truly believe that Ron however does.

That 4% is truth, look at the statistics my friend, he didn't pull it out of midair......actually read the book and you will find truth

Spread your peace love and understanding among those who appreciate it.

Just look at how they called in all their on-duty PR volunteers to flood this thread with claims that they're not "out to force themselves on anybody"

That tells you where their heads are at right there

Ever had a Jehovah's Witness come hassle you at home? This is the exact same brand of Bible nut. They think THEIR WHOLE PURPOSE in this life is to force their system of belief on everybody they possibly can. Only then will they get to sit on God's knee and slurp him off for the rest of eternity

for their internet... or their laptops. makes it easier to ascertain whether they're checking out online porno sites.

Seriously guys... it breaks my heart to hear what people are saying about the battle cry and teen mania... Obviously, the people bashing and trying to destroy this wonderful weekend have never felt the holy spirit. You guys have NO idea what this country is coming to... we are in for a hard 50 years if we dont fix our generation NOW. God LOVES every SINGLE one of you, even if you dont want him! and i realy dont get all this women hating stuff.. im a 16 year old young man, and i have NEVER heard that... are you guys just getting this stuff becasue we are against ABORTION? well, if a woman doesnt want a kid.... shes smart enough to know NOT to have sex... a babys heart starts beating 14 days after the egg and sperm come in contact... (many times BEFORE a woman knows shes pregnant..) so you guys are murdering. honestly.... its WRONG. EVERYONE deserves a chance... just think, you could have been aborted... you wouldnt even be here... God loves you so much... i just pray that you all will wake up to realize what we are in for... Please Email me if you have questions...

How sad. Opiates for the masses.....

Even though many do not like Bush.. he is still incharge of our country, and he still deserves respect. So stop disrespecting the ones placed in authority of you... if you do not like being in this country, under the power of Bush, go to a freaking communist country!!

Could nayone actually believe what the above poster proposes? what a joke. Fuck Bush. Fuck Cheney. Fuck Rumsfield--and fuck Condi, too. LOL!

Isn't that a euphemism for neofascism in Europe?

I have to wonder. I'd sue the people at this webpage then.
http://www.traditionalvalues.org/modules.php?sid=2290

If only I knew where to find them and their message....

what years do you think they mean?

the years when only wealthy white men could vote and natives were slaughtered?

the hundred of years of slavery?

perhaps jim crow and the KKK's heyday, when minorities knew their place?

when gay people were beaten and murdered with wild abandon?

ah, yes, those lovely christian feel good years. the battlecry christian soldiers ache for them.

you are all worth it. no matter what. I once believed that lies of satan. I came out of a life of homosexuality by the loving grace of God. There is forgivness!
This entire page is an example of why you are fought for. My generation is lost. I love you

more rambling and incoherent comments: you're evil, jesus loves you, bliboty-blobedy, we don't want to take over, we are fighting to take over a generation

so, did you lemmings get them waxed when you had your brains washed?

are you kids like 12, with reading levels of 5-year olds, or is that mommy or daddy pretending to be extremely ignorant teenagers? perhaps the grand wizard Ron Luce himself is here promoting his special brand of mind control


Luce really digs from the bottom of the barrel, doesn't he, with the hitler youth he's assembling to take over the nation?

From the press release:
"BattleCry is a national movement of hundreds of thousands of teenagers who, fueled by their Christian faith, are taking a stand against the pop-culture forces contributing to the unprecedented spread of STDs, drug and alcohol abuse, violence, and suicide among the teenage generation."

It seems it's always someone else causing your problems. OH NO, it's not corporate America that wants to cram sex and violence down your throat because that's what sells.

It's "pop culture". Code words for "the others", the non-Christians.

Teenagers like to conform. It helps them deal with their insecurities and helps them find others they can identify with. The danger is when the person leading you around your conformity has an agenda that is not 100% tolerant. More like 4% tolerant, if that.

"the unprecedented spread of STDs"

I suppose the European germs that killed 90-some percent of the original inhabitants of the Americas don't count, because they weren't STDs (they were passed much more easily than that), and since Christians did it (sometimes on purpose), they were forgiven later anyways.

Except of course for the ones who had their hands chopped off by missionaries for not making very good slaves.

Jesus loves you-- for snack time, for anytime!

It's a euphemism for neofascism here too, only here it's more common to use the term "Libertarianism"

This battle belongs to the Lord, we are only trying to save the youth of America from falling in to dispair like the three generations before them. We need to stand on Godly principles, that make this country great, otherwise we will fall apart. We are teaching youth to plan for the next generation and not to do what we want now because we're not going to be here later. We have to set an example and raise the standards of our lives... b/c if we don't we'll be left to the evil desires of our hearts... "...sexual immorality, impure thoughts, eagerness for lustful pleasure, idolatry, participation in demonic activities, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, divisions, the feeling that everyone is wrong except those in your own little group, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other kinds of sin." Gal 5:19-21

We have already seen these results in our country and it's time to change that... we need Jesus!!

That's what you told four continents of people before you killed most of them, enslaved the rest and stole all the land.

Why the heck does everyone cuss so much? does it make you feel bigger that you sound like your straight from a trailer park?!?! you guys need to grow up... the "christians" didnt bother the homosexuals when they were showing their love and affection in public... so you should so them some respect....

BTW.. im Gay, and i dont even support the BC, but i still think that its only fair if they have a chance... QUIT whining!

what planet do you live on?

christians not bothering gay people?

who do you think believes you when you write that?

Do you live on this site or something? why do you have so much hatred inside? get a life. they really didnt bother us....

That because you disagree with someone expressing their opinion on an open forum that it should be characterized as "whining". Sounds like you're the one whining James.

They express their opinions, we express ours. You have a problem with that?

The constant skirmishing between the Sons Of Abraham, (Jews, Christians, Muslims) is a minor blip if you tally the numbers. The great danger is that they will RESOLVE their contest, UNIFY, and attempt to complete the removal of the Hindus, Buddhists, and OTHER.

...is Satan Worship all dressed up in virtuous drag with nowhere to go but into an earthly hell of shallow weak minds

Hey James: when we curse and abuse you, that's because we want you to put your baby spirituality in a backpack, put on some sturdy hiking boots, go to the top of El Capitan in Yosemite, aim yourself due south, and take a nice long hike, got it? Oh yeah: and take all your friends with you. You can have yourselves a real sloppy Lordy Jesus circle-jerk at your turn-around point. Who knows, maybe you'll actually meet Jesus and he can join in. Careful though: I hear he likes to play rough

It's called 'contemptuous rejection.'

You think you're the first ones who've tried to lay this bullshit on us?? I for one know you mental cripples WAY better than you're **willing** to know yourselves. FUCK OFF!!!

This battle belongs to the [Goddess], we are only trying to save the youth of America from falling in to dispair like the three generations before them. We need to stand on [Pagan] principles, that make this country great, otherwise we will fall apart. We are teaching youth to plan for the next generation and not to do what we want now because we're not going to be here later. We have to set an example and raise the standards of our lives... b/c if we don't we'll be left to the evil desires of our hearts...

"An Ye harm none, do as ye will." -- Wiccan Rede

We have already seen these results in our country and it's time to change that... we need [Goddess]!!

Seems to me it's organized religion and the mis-use of Christ's teachings that's the issue here. Christ forgave & loved. I like to think that the host of those you condemn as "Christians" who do some very non-Christ-like things will have that discussion one day where He asks "what the HELL where you thinking doing THAT using MY name???" As opposed to, say, his greeting for MLK....

>> Seriously guys... it breaks my heart to hear what people are saying about the battle cry and teen mania... Obviously, the people bashing and trying to destroy this wonderful weekend have never felt the holy spirit.

I have been to a prior Christian youth event in Long Beach, as part of my professional education in crowd control techniques. I wanted to throw up. It struck me as the exact opposite of the peace and love I feel when I worship Goddess in my own way, when I feel connected to the universe and to my fellow human beings. Actually, Battlecry! reminds me of summoning rituals. Evil ones.

>> You guys have NO idea what this country is coming to... we are in for a hard 50 years if we dont fix our generation NOW. God LOVES every SINGLE one of you, even if you dont want him!

We are well aware that our nation is in crisis. The principles on which our country was made great are being systematically taken apart, bolt by bolt, by a gang of theocratic thugs who are enlisting you as one of their shock troops.

Goddess loves everyone. But she does not take our tests for us, and I fear your test is yet to come.

>> and i realy dont get all this women hating stuff.. im a 16 year old young man, and i have NEVER heard that... are you guys just getting this stuff becasue we are against ABORTION? well, if a woman doesnt want a kid.... shes smart enough to know NOT to have sex... a babys heart starts beating 14 days after the egg and sperm come in contact... (many times BEFORE a woman knows shes pregnant..)

You are young and male, and therefore not entitled to an opinion about abortion. Not every woman chooses to have sex, you know, and your leaders tell the world that even rape and incest are not good enough reasons for abortion. It's not about a clump of cells, it's about putting a legal padlock on the uterus of every woman walking.

>> so you guys are murdering. honestly.... its WRONG. EVERYONE deserves a chance... just think, you could have been aborted... you wouldnt even be here... God loves you so much...

Go read your Bible. The Old Testament specifies that the injury of a pregnant woman, such that she loses her child, is punishable by a fine. Not "eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life" -- a fine. That's right, abortion is not a mortal sin by Old Testament law.

>> i just pray that you all will wake up to realize what we are in for... Please Email me if you have questions...

If your leaders follow the lines they have drawn, what we are in for is nothing less than civil war. And on that day, if you pick up a weapon and serve as one of God's shock troops, I swear to you that "he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword." Think about it.

go here:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2006/03/1810572.php

"God loves you all"

How do you know? When did you find this out?

When it took so long for slavery to be abolished? When African Americans were lynched in the south? When these immigrants are being deported in the dead of night just for not being an American citizen?

Was it the time I was molested when I was 15 by my aunt's roomate? Was it the time I felt so fucking depressed and wanted to end my life? Was it when I was raped by a person I thought was a good friend? Was it when I lived my life feeling so alone when I did believe in this "god"? Now I don't and I feel life is so much more complete. I feel so much more enriched. I feel so unlimited.

Do you know that God loves all because of all the corruption in the world? Is it because of God's allowance of millions of people to starve and die? God's allowance for George W. Bush and his cronies to wage mass murder on the people of Iraq with other countries in their sites? When South Dakota passed a law to outlaw abortion? When Alito was appointed to Supreme court so this regime could move closer to sending women to the dark ages?

Oh yes, God loves all when that bullet is hitting that Iraqi civilian..
God loves all when the soldiers are torturing innocent detainees...
God loves all when women have no choice but to have a back alley abortion...

But wait...if you're a sinner God doesn't love you...no.
I thought you said...God loves all...oh...
God loves all...excluding homosexuals, women that were forced into prostitution, women who were raped and got pregnant because they weren't married.

Hey! It sure DOESN'T sound like God loves all with all these exceptions...

All this call to action was for was to have people think for themselves and I am all for that. I went out today. I saw these Battlecry teens...it was sickening! Most of them hadn't even read the bible. Most of them...MAJORITY of them are just saying what they have been told...and with all those people who were at SBC park...you know all of them are not heterosexual.

There was an excellent chant today..."Religion is one thing, Theocracy's another. The Christian Right is WRONG!"

That's the message. The counter Battlecry people were not Anti-Christian at all, but wanted to wake these kis up to think for themselves which they are not doing. And like someone said to these teenage girls who were there..."50% of you will be pregnant before marriage, and you will have the choice to have the baby or HAVE AN ABORTION."

"Your 'BattleCry' is based on LIES. Think for yourself. OPEN YOUR EYES!"

well actually there's a picture of this militaristic dude up. JIHAD!!!!!!!
just kidding.
I expect we'll see pictures of today's events shortly. goody goody!
http://battlecry.com/sanfrancisco.php

Channel 2 news tonight-
from a young fundamentalist named Tyler: "We believe this is a strategic area. If we can get our foot in the door (our ideas can spread faster)..."

Ask the prochoice people. The right wing came here to attack Roe v Wade in January in massive numbers. San Francisco is the new Disneyland for righties. So GET OFF YOUR ASS and meet them whenever they give you the opportunity. Remember to smile for the cameras!

http://www.acquiretheevidence.com/

Thanks for sharing that...

"But wait...if you're a sinner God doesn't love you...no.
I thought you said...God loves all...oh... "

When did anyone ever say God didnt love a sinner? YOU must not have read the Bible that much... he accepted the rejected... he hung out with the biggest sinners imaginable... God love the sinners, but he hates their sin... there is a difference... and your story really does sound tough.. and im sure there is many other people with a story similar to yours... but when you are not following God, you are filling that void in your life with things of the world... (drugs, alcohol, etc...)

Once again the fundamentalist demonstrates the intolerance of their viewpoint:
"when you are not following God, you are filling that void in your life with things of the world... (drugs, alcohol, etc...)"

Some who are atheists might just be reading a good book. Who are you to say that people who believe differently from you have a void in their lives.

"who are you?'...u are asking this guy the wrong question. i hate when you guys ask dumb questions like that. WE ARENT ANYBODY TO SAY THAT, you are definately right about that...but GOD definately is someone to say that...so why dont you consider it GOD saying it, as we never claimed to be the author of GOD'S word...( and if you have a problem with what GOD says, and are offended, dont lash out at the messengers...TAKE IT UP WITH GOD HIMSELF. )

So you fob it off on "God". God will answer all the questions you can't. Nice work kid, let us know when you've learned to think independently. I've heard Moonies with better answers than you've come up with.

Guys, please listen to me. Christianity is more than a crutch for people who can't think for themselves. I am a Christian and it has changed my life. I know what you are thinking... here we go again, another right-wing conservative pleading for us to get saved..... but listen. Can you prove to me that Christianity is false? I have seen God radically change situations that seemed impossible. He healed my sister of a tumor in her brain when the doctors said it was medically impossible (within 1 day)! He saved me from being a slave to the Devil and gave me a new heart! He healed a woman in my church from her deathbed! And the power of God Almighty can certainly turn your life around too. Please... research Christianity... look at the lives of martyrs.. think of all the prayers that were answered... Is it easier to prove or disprove Christianity? If you have any questions about Christianity's validity, read Josh McDowell's book called More than a Carpenter.

You and your friends will need it someday:
Recovery from Cults: Help for Victims of Psychological and Spiritual Abuse (Hardcover)
by Michael D. Langone.

Read it now, avoid the rush.

fob it off on GOD? cause i cant answer the questions myself? i cant think indepently? hello, of course i cant independently answer the ultimate questions about life and the whole creation of it...hhmmm, common sense tells me to go to the person who is responsible for creating it all, including us, and ask HIM about life, and the purpose of it all...so yes, i am DEPENDANT on God for those answers...what im curious is to how you can "INDEPENDENTLY" think about the right answers to such ultimate questions...im curious, what are the right answers according to you? independant thinkers can be wrong...did you know that? in fact, i could "independantly" think about some one elses life biography...but wouldnt it be smarter to go to the source? the author?...oh wait , i forgot...according to you, i need to think only for myself..."independently"...even if im wrong...cant get help from the source...no no , that would be "dumb" of me huh?...i'm sorry...i just cant follow your logic. but i guess you cant follow mine either, so its pointless...guess well all have to leave it up to the day we die....hopefully well all get our answers...i mean, cmon, someone has got to be wrong here right? thats what logic dictates...so "IF" i'm right, hypotetically speaking, then if you don't acknowledge GOD as your crerater, and jesus as his son...then your in trouble. "IF" your right, then there is no god, and iwas just a moron, and i really dont have to worry about anything...so there are the possible outcomes according to the both of us. i'm feeling pretty confident about my possible outcomes. are you? remember, im jus talkin to you on your foundation, so try not to get personally offended by me...after all, im not the one codemin anyone...GOD is. so like i stated before...DONT HATE THE MESSENGERS...TAKE IT UP WITH GOD. cause seriously...i dont have to preach to you about God to get to heaven...i'm already goin there, according to GODS WORD
, which i "dependently" believe to be true...i just write up blogs like this so maybe someone such as yourself can open there eyes and ask themselves..."why am i here"..."whats my purpose"...."what happens when i die?".... i dont know about you, but those are very important questions in my opinion. if you dont believe in God, or Jesus...then thats your God given opinion...dont "reverse discriminate" on us cause we believe in him...thats hypocritical. ( and i know you hate when christians use that word...cause u think we are all hypocritical...but guess what? everyone is. in fact, whoever said christians were perfect? im not...im far from it...doesnt keep me from tryin though...) so people...you either beleive in christ, or you dont. simple...or not....quit hatin either way...as this sight is obviously set up to hate on certain orgs....

...it's difficult talking rationally with someone who can only make their argument with ideas that have been regurgitated to them by right wing fundies.

I don't hate you. There are some people here that are rough on you and you can't take it, so you can only argue back with what you have at hand. My sympathies.

You feel hated, but you are not hated, at least by me. Many of you seem to see our criticism and our anger at your denial of our basic human rights as hatred. That's how your leader characterizes it too, to make US the haters, the stranger, the others- and YOUR enemy.

Did you notice how he says 90% or so of you convert to fundamentalism when you're in your teens? Why is he going after teens do you think? Because you are just learning about independent thought and breaking away and rebelling from your parents. And together if you grow up you can help his friends maintain power over the OTHERS who don't agree with him.

Two of my children are currently attending Battle Cry along with 181 other teens and adults from our church. My daughter (15) called me last night after the event and was affraid. Not because of the protest itself, but because some of the protesters were "really scary looking".

First of all, I would like to state that I have actively protested many thing in my life including wars, toxic waste incinerators, nuclear anything, and I have done so without costumes and with my face fully exposed. I wanted to be taken seriously and my outrage to show in my presence and participation and not be distracted by outrageous attire and concealing make-up. After all, the purpose of a clown is to entertain, not teach.

Second, I believe in love, forgiveness, acceptance and respect, all of which I learned by the example set for me by Jesus Christ. I teach my children to believe in the same. I encourage my children to stand up for and stand firm in what they believe just as those protesting this event do.

For the record,I did not vote for George Jr. his first term, but did in his second (which, I'll give you, was a mistake), but I also worked hard on the Clinton campaign, voted for him twice and would gladly do so again. Yes, he showed bad judgement in the Lewinski matter, but we've all shown bad judgement at some point in our lives. That's what forgiveness is for.

There are many controversial subjects that I have seen addressed in some of these comments. Subjects such as abortion, homosexuality and the war in Iraq. Obviously, we are not all going to agree nor are we going to disagree for the same reasons.

I suppose what bothers me most about those of you who are against christians is that you feel you are the only ones who have a right to practice what you believe. This event is not being crammed down your throat nor are you expected to buy a ticket and attend. Those who are attending are doing so of their own free will. They are practicing their right to assemble, same as e you. Those of you who are so offended by christians misunderstand what we are about. We are not the ones filled with hatred. You are.

I'd also like to point out that the word "phobic" refers to fear of something. Christians are not affraid of homosexuality nor do we hate homosexuals. We simply hate what we call sin which includes things such as murder, thievery, greed, and perversion, just to name a few and if a man can be convicted of murder for the death of an unborn child and sentenced to death, then why can't a woman? I'd call that discrimination wouldn't you?

We are free to worship our God just as you are free not to.

You are free to protest this event. But please, don't be cowards. Show your face.

What are you affraid of?

Illiteracy.

It's also an excuse to steal entire continents and enslave whole races.

Hasn't your daughter been exposed to other cultures? What specifically was so "scary looking"?

"if a man can be convicted of murder for the death of an unborn child and sentenced to death, then why can't a woman? I'd call that discrimination wouldn't you?"

Abortion is not a crime. I assume you're talking about abortion and not the nutcases who pursue pregnant women and cut them up because they want to be "mommas".

So you would convict a woman who had an abortion of murder?

"We are not the ones filled with hatred. You are."

You're as insecure as some of these kids. Anyone disagrees and it's: "YOU HATE US!"

"We are not the ones filled with hatred. You are."

You're as insecure as some of these kids. Anyone disagrees and it's: "YOU HATE US!"

I can't tell you haw greatful I am that the protesters are there. They are serving to prove our point: The enemy of our souls will stop at nothing.

By the way, persecution makes us stronger!

keep it up Laure, and remember to check your spelling occasionally. Goddess bless...

keep it up Laure, and remember to check your spelling occasionally. Goddess bless...

what the heck is this goddess business?!?!

that was hot, oh god....

God *must* be a woman. How could a man give birth to the world? And if he did, what part of his body would it have come out of?

Why is that? What are you really worshipping anyway? Maybe it's only yourself

Yeah, how dare those Christians display opinions contrary to ours! How dare they!
Freedom of speech is not - repeat NOT - a one-way street.
Funny how people like you guys call people who disagree with you "fascists" and go out of your way to prevent them from even stating their opinions.

How dare they raise their voices in a little peep if we come to their city to trash their way of life!

How dare the have an opinion!

How dare they comment!

OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!

In a word, no:

http://www.venganza.org/

I am feeling the rapture that comes only from the presence of my lord:

THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER!

Praise him!

... and frankly, in spite of your bogus insistence that secular Americans want speech by Christians like those in TM squelched, I'd like the whole world to know exactly what took place here in San Francisco and every word that was said on the stage at SBC Park during the "Battle Cry" finale last night. Every single word.

I meant to put this one... but like I said, I'm not stopping anyone from looking at TM's sites either.

If you're not homosexual, then homosexuality is none of your business.

If you're not a woman, why on earth does it matter what you think about abortion?

If you don't live here, who are you to come here and tell us how to live?


It's not that you have an opinion. It's that you impose it where you have no business doing so.

Has anybody here ever heard a sarcastic reply? OK, ok, a misspelled sarcastic reply...

we look around and there are protest groups for protest groups. we have cities who thrive on being seen in the public eyes. we have leaders who flip flop back and forth based on what society tells them, and then when there is a group that refuses to conform we protest. WHY? we are taught in schools, by media, and main stream polititians to accept everything, everything that we believe is RIGHT? What is right?
What is tolerated and what is not?
If a person prays for their lunch in school they are a freak. If two women hold hands and call themselves a couple their a freak.
We wonder why there are groups out there puching their agenda and get upset when it is different than our's. Why bash a christian group who wants to take a stand against inmoral beliefs. Why get upset because they want decency and order brought back to our nation and they know that it must start at an early age. Once we get beyond a certain point it is pointless because are set in our ways and it is harder to change.
Why is this a bad thing?
Oh wait I know, because it does not support a certain group of people or their beleifs.

Do you Guys Know who origonally started the national Abortion movement.....It was two guys.... they said that they needed to make it a womens only issue... that worked .. they said they have to discredit the Cathlic church and make them have no say in the matter...wow did they do that .... They knew what they had to do and they got it done.

It's kind of amazing how people as a whole, (society) is conformed and corupted by simple, planed out, well organized, strategic methods.... makes you think ...do you even know what you know ... do you really understand whats been going on with the world these past generations.. do you think what has been given to ...Or what your have discovered for yourself. Most people have nothing for themselves, People just don't take the time to think

I find it very sad that the same people who demand “tolerance” can not tolerate those with differing opinions from their own. The reality is that there are a good number of people in San Francisco who are filled with irrational, bigoted hatred against Christians. Still, I respect their right to protest.

Far from being Fascist, these Christian rallies are highly beneficial for democracy.

As G. K Chesterton said:

"The Declaration of Independence dogmatically bases all rights on the fact that God created all men equal; and it is right; for if they were not created equal, they were certainly evolved unequal. There is no basis for democracy except in a dogma about the divine origin of man." - Chapter 19, What I Saw In America, 1922

There have certainly been abuses by people who claim to be Christians, but act who against what Jesus taught. This is very sad and unfortunate. On the other hand, need I remind you that more people have been killed by Atheists in the last 100 years than by Christians in the last 1000 years…. do the math… Lenin, Stalin, Mao, etc… And anyone who claims Hitler was a Christian has no idea what he actually believed. He said “Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery...” The reality is that Hitler had his own strange assortment of beliefs.

For those who doubt the truth and validity of Christianity, I invite you to please consider it with REASON and LOGIC rather than inflammatory rhetoric.

The same goes for the abortion issue. If the unborn are human persons, than they deserve to have the government protect their equal rights, especially to “life, liberty and the pursuit of happniness.”

God loves you very much and would love to have a relationship you. At the same time he does not demand you give up your reason. Faith and Reason can NEVER contradict. Questions are great, as long as you are ready for the answers.

At least be open minded enough to get the view of the other side. I know I have. For a start, check out these useful sites:

http://www.peterkreeft.com

http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/personhood.htm

Thanks for letting me post on your web site.

you want laws to control what other people do based on your interpretation of ancient texts and you talk about open minds

your mind is locked into your idea of one true salvation. you want other people to stay "open" to your ideas while you have shut yours to theirs

that's called hypocrisy

"can not tolerate those with differing opinions from their own."


It's not your opinion we care about. It's the enforcement of your political agenda.

To characterize it as an "opinion" is to dress up a wolf like a sheep.

"who origonally started the national Abortion movement"

Abortions have been going on a lot longer than nations have.

Also, you spell it "originally."

You do your cause no good coming off as an illiterate-- though you do gain the poignancy of apparent-honesty that way...

"can not tolerate those with differing opinions from their own."


It's not your opinion we care about. It's the enforcement of your political agenda.

To characterize it as an "opinion" is to dress up a wolf like a sheep.

<img src="http://www.bumpertalk.com/bt/images/items/BA032B.jpg">

bring back the past!

public stonings for sinners and unbelievers!!

let's all live by the rules set out ancient magical texts! (of course, you will pick and choose which rules from this text and never really follow them all, or do you want to kill those who work on Sundays, too?)


progressive? dogmatic is more like it

It's ok it's not political it's moral. would ATF like to see more morals in politics of course (doubt it will happen) but thier sick of drugs (not just weed heroin x meth all kinds of amphetamines) porno, vilence, running through the hands of 12 year olds man it's bad enough we deal with it all our live it does need to happen in middle school these kids don't even know what thier doing to themselves yet it happens everyday people were tryin to have sex in the bathrooms all the time in middle school I don't care what your for "battle cry" is shinen truth weather anyone likes it or not ..... And the people that were against them were dressed up with bras on there head....face painted and wearing a dress (that would be the men) battle cry hardly said anything about gays they talk about Christians and how thier not standing up for themselves.... kinda glad the protesters showed up .... it showed the kids not everyone is going to accept thier chioces and gave battle cry national exposer , na i'm not compleatly illiterate I'll speak my mind anyway. this stuff is real I'm glad thier tryin to do somethin about it people are gonna live how they want to live no one really cares.It's good to see people that do

After reading all these statements I've see two things. Heterophobics spewing hate, and Christians defending themselves. If you truly want the nation on a whole to be symapthetic to the homosexuals, you really need to be less hateful.
The Christians on the other hand are sharing love, which is good, but you do not send children to open forums like this to fight with the Devil. My son was at that concert, he didn't go to bash homosexuals, but make a statement to his G*d that he is willing to follow HIM. How dare you as "the most tolerant city," be so intelerant to a bunch of children. You should be ashamed of yourself. I don't see how protesting a bunch of children being tolerant, but I'm not the one who dubbed SF as tolerant. I have homosexual friends that would never set foot in SF because of the hateful homosexual society it has. I think you have all exhibited how intolerant SF is. Congratulations!

Read some history about this city and this state, why don't you? The main issue most people have commented on was that Ron Luce made a point of going to City Hall where "gay marriages" happened a few months ago. It's in HIS literature, we didn't make it up. Mr. Luce's website killed the link to this pdf file of his, thankfully I saved it.
http://battlecry.com/documents/Registration_Kit_Manual_2006_SBC_Park.pdf

If you don't know the history of SF's City Hall and the things that have happened there over the years, I wonder how long you have been a CA native. Do you even remember the "White night" riots and why they happened.

I can see a trend where anyone who disagrees with you is called HATEFUL. You're kids are parroting it now too. You are being hateful to them and to all of us by raising them to fear and hate the differences we all have by nature and telling them to pray for us to find your God in your way. You are SCARY and no foolin'.

I resent being called a "hypocrite" because it asserts that I am "shut" to others beliefs. I would consider that "inflammatory rhetoric." I have no idea how you could know what I have and have not read.

I hope you know that I was not always a Christian. I explored every major religion and many obscure ones as well, with the goal of finding the truth. It took years of study but I finally came to the conclusion based on applying all the evidence which I examined that Christianity was true... Plain and simple.

Since then, the amazing experiences I have had with God only confirm this in a more personal form of evidence. It is a journey which I recommend to everyone.

If you have done the same study and have come to a different conclusion, then I respect your use of your intellect.. even if your conclusion differs from mine. If not, I think you should start reading rather than making irrational attacks on others.

As for a political "agenda," the government always has an agenda... that is democracy. I'm sure you have an agenda too.

The point I was trying to make is that Christians are accused of being "intolerant" when they oppose those with political agendas to establish changes such as gay marriage. It is said we need to be "tolerant of everyone," which often translates into giving into their agenda. On the other hand, when Christians are attacked with bigoted mischaracterizations, it's considered acceptable. It is a double standard.

That was not even a good example though, because I don't think the gay marriage issue was even brought up at the rally featured in the story. As another poster said, it has more to do with morality.

The comments about "public stonings for sinners and unbelievers!!" and "kill those who work on Sundays" are more irrational rhetoric. If one had read the New Testament, they would see how this is a false characterization of the teachings of Jesus. It sets it out pretty clearly if it had been read.

Thanks again for letting me post.

that's old testament, not new. no one said Jesus said it

but fundies like yourself tend to be pretty darned fond of the old testament, loving the homosexuality is an abomination crap but forgetting the slavery is okay and kill those who work on the sabbath parts (conveniently)

all of the hate and anger of the old testament is so much more fun than being nice to weird people, fighting the wealthy and powerful, and living with the downtrodden

luce is very much an old testament guy, evem though he says the word jesus twice in every sentence

"when Christians are attacked with bigoted mischaracterizations it's considered acceptable"

Poor little fundies! You are SO put upon compared to other people who deal with real prejudice. Give me a break.

"As for a political "agenda," the government always has an agenda... that is democracy. I'm sure you have an agenda too."


But the point is that you're demanding tolerance for an OPINION, and then legislatively enforcing an AGENDA. And then labeling anyone who objects as HATEFUL. That shit may play in Peoria, but San Franciscans are a little more sophisticated as political consumers, and we aren't buying it.

The two are not one and the same. You just try to make it seem that way, so Christians can continue playing the victims while really being the predators. The victims: civil rights for women and queers, to start with.

The values that made this nation what it is today are genocide, slavery, avarice and theachery.

Just wanted to acknowledge the obvious pain & frustration by those posting "where was God when....?"

He was there. Probably with many a tear in His eyes. Filled with love for you, for others, in pain for what He was witnessing. Knowing the greatest gift he gave us has been abused, by so many, against so many.

The gift of choice.

That gift works against us, by allowing absolute atrocities to take place rather than be "struck down by lightening" (as many of us would love to see). It works for us by allowing us the freedom to choose whether or not to accept Him, NOT be forced to do so.

Choice - damned if you do, damned if you don't; be careful what you ask for - we got it, we unfortunately are victims of others who also received it. I too have many a tale of abuse (physical, sexual, incest), of hypocrisy-in-action, of the "zealots" you speak of that drove me away from God's love. But more than the events, was the "Church", the teachings of damnation (shoot, my mother told me I had Satan in my eyes while sprinkling holy water on me & pouring holy salt over my car...before kicking me out), watching the robes of bishops get rich while they discouraged birth control for their poor constituents. Big turnoff for many, many years, as it was (still is) for every one of my siblings - many of which are atheists, agnostic, or celebrating another non-Christian-based religion in search of their spirituality.

But I know now, thanks to many God placed in my life, it wasn't meant to be that way, and it won't always be. He was there, as was His love. You (they) may not have felt it, because the evil arms of the abusers overpowered His voice. They will have to deal with Him in the end; you should pity them for the future they hold. Your argument is not with God, but with humankind & its abuse of the great gift we've been given.

Peace be, you truly are loved - whether or not you ask to be, or accept it.

in the book of Job, God Himself allows a great bit of suffering merely to wager with the Devil

similar story with Abraham and his son

of course, there's God punishing Egyptians by killing all first born sons, or destroying the world with the great flood, or destroying "wicked" cities like Sodom

so, according to the bible, not all suffering is caused by other people who choose poorly. sometimes God allows suffering or even causes it because the Devil talked Him into it or He just feels like testing people's faith for the heck of it or maybe He's mad

I live in SF. I already posted this on another thread, sorry for any double posting, but I think this is important. I just wanted to share this site called Religious Tolerance:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/

I am definitely on one side of this discussion and that is in favor of equal rights regardless of gender and keeping the state out of personal decisions.

But I think this site has a good balance of presenting both sides of important issues that are being discussed here. It's a great resource for greater understanding. It gives both sides on many issues and judges neither. (or at least I haven't found anything yet that seems like it.).

Here are two major issues where fundamentalist Christians and progressives often disagree. Have a look:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/homosexu.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abortion.htm

and about atheism:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/atheist.htm

My name is Kevin, I'm 14 years old (well, 15 in 3 months), and I live in Iowa. I let you all know this so you can feel free to bash me for being a "14-year-old kid who doesn't know what he's talking about," or a "fundamentalist hick from some cornfield." In fact, I expect such responses from TW. Or are your previous comments no indication of your respect (or lack thereof) for people who disagree with you?

Maybe I should be the first to present some material from those famous documents which we Christians are supposed to follow like a personal constitution (only this one doesn't allow for changes to it by majority vote, though some would try).

Matthew 18 -
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=18&version=31

By the way, if any of you won't bother to read and learn about that which you attack, I see no point in debating with you, and you are simply a waste of my time. Of course, you may claim the same of me. I will gladly read material you present to me, and then continue the debate.

To 'not so sure':
"in the book of Job, God Himself allows a great bit of suffering merely to wager with the Devil"
Job 1 -
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job%201;&version=31;
"merely to wager with the Devil"? You do understand the relationship between God and Satan, don't you? Satan is an angel who rebelled against God, with many other angels following him, but we all know that part. Satan knows that he can't defeat God in direct confrontation, so he tries to ruin that which God holds most dear. He tries to create an impassable gap between God and His Creation, which God made to love and be loved. This is no mere wager. This is an important battle in the war. Satan makes the accusation that one of God's greatest soldiers (I'm making use of metaphor, here) is a good soldier at all, and his righteousness is not true righteousness because he's only doing it because God blesses him when he does. Of course God has to prove him wrong. And guess what? God does prove Satan wrong. Even after all he goes through, Job still retains his faith in God.

Well, it's getting late, I've been typing in this little box off and on now for a couple hours, and I'm trying to hold a conversation on the phone with my girlfriend at the same time that I'm typing, which isn't working too well. Until next time.

Please excuse my typos.

"(I'm making use of metaphor, here) is a good soldier at all"
should be
"(I'm making use of metaphor, here) isn't a good soldier at all"

Let us know what you think of this site. A lot has been said, a lot still to explore.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/

I applaud the unbiased presentation of religions / faith - I hope you can keep this unbiased. Hiding our heads in the sand to say "ours is the only truth" does not acknowledge that others feel very strongly about THEIR truth. There may be (OK, IS) only ONE "absolute truth", about which each of us has our personal beliefs. We'll all find out whether or not we're right when we die.

Re: God's wrath in Old Testament v. New - I've always thought that the messages delivered along the courses of time (and actions) by God were done so to acknowledge the state of our society's evolution - 10 Commandments: simple, black & white in a time where basic rules were needed. You fail, you lose. Jesus comes, and that message evolves to be "turn the other cheek", "love one another" - more gray in-between, but delivered directly by God's human son rather than passed off by men over the ages. I know not the reason for what God's actions were, but can affirm Kevin's thoughts that it wasn't to play with or be tested by Satan - Satan fell because HE chose to undermine God's authority and place himself as ruler. It's that choice that will place him appropriately throughout eternity, but he was allowed the choice. Just as we are in all we say or do. Personally, I look forward to many a conversation asking "but what about...?" and "why did you...?" when I see God one/one - my list, as yours is long. But because of His Son, I trust in His love, and that it's not a one-way dictatorship but a relationship He's seeking with me (with you).

"I applaud the unbiased presentation of religions / faith "

Read it and find out. It's a good start. This is on their front page:

Religious tolerance means: to extend religious freedom to people of all religions, even though you sincerely disagree with their beliefs and/or practices.

Religious freedom means that you can:
Believe, worship and witness as you wish;
Change your beliefs or religion; and
Join with others to express your beliefs.

Our site mandate:
"To promote religious tolerance and freedom.
To describe religious faiths in all their diversity.
To describe controversial topics from all points of view."

This website is unlike almost all other religious sites: It promotes religious freedom, and diversity as positive cultural values.

We do not promote our own religious beliefs. We can't because we are a multi-faith group. We try to explain the full diversity of religious belief in North America, from Asatru to Zoroastrianism, including Buddhism, Christianity, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Taoism, Universism, Wicca, other religious groups, and spiritual/ethical groups.

We try to describe all viewpoints on controversial religious topics objectively and fairly. We cover everything from abortion access to equal rights and protections for homosexuals and bisexuals, including same-sex marriage, and dozens of other "hot" topics.

Just to affirm, if it wasn't clear, it appeared un-biased, which I applaud; not enough objectivity & high emotions negatively impact fruitful discussion around beliefs. Choosing to believe is a personal decision; asking (forcing) someone else to follow your belief is dictatorial. No love is greater than that which is given freely.

So I was looking on that religious tolerance site, and came to the page of feedback emails they have. I couldn't help but laugh in disbelief that those who call themselves Christians would send some of those emails. For example:
"None of you would want to meet me. You would suffer. Love and wisdom is stronger then any igorance or hate."
Wow. This site is stopping ignorance, not promoting it. This person claims to know about love, but at the same time says that the founders of the website would all suffer if they were to meet him/her.

Thanks a lot for that link. I wasn't aware of that site before now.

I'm learning a thing or two myself about the differing points of view on various issues. Not saying you'll agree with everything there, nor will I (especially the nastier feedbacks), but perhaps to gain better understanding of each other's differences and how they came about.

This is a comment directed towards 'praise be!!' the one who posted the "Fuck Me Jesus" picture.

What is your goal here? What exactly do you think you are accomplishing? If your goal is nothing more than to offend some (any) Christian, then I congratulate you on your success. However, I must say that your complete lack of maturity disappoints me. With all the talk I hear about how many Christians there are that are hypocrites (and there are many, I know), I had hoped that those of other religious (or secular) allegiances would be wonderful examples of what a person should be like.

Perhaps it's all just a joke to you. If that is so, it is a complete waste of my time to speak to you, since all things philosophical and/or religious have no meaning to you.

Or maybe this is all because you want to be sweet and rebel against your parents, or against anything traditional. Tell me, what is wrong with Christianity? Don't tell me Christianity sucks because Cortez came and killed thousands upon thousands of American Indians in the name of God. Don't tell me Christianity sucks because during the Spanish Inquisition thousands were killed in the name of God. Tell me what is wrong with CHRISTIANITY. NOT the PEOPLE who have ABUSED the use of God's name. CHRISTIANITY.

If it's all a joke, a little game - don't bother to reply, because I won't bother to continue the conversation. If not, maybe we can put on our maturity caps for a little while and have a nearly decent debate.

You all eat this dead guy every week, so you can achieve eternal life.

That's cannibalism and vampirism. You make kids participate in it, too.

How's that for a start on "what's wrong with christianity the belief not the people"?

Just goes to show there all many many differente belief systems out there:

"...we differentiate between vampires and vampyres:
Vampires are imaginary, reanimated, blood-sucking human corpses whose origins are grounded in religious myth. The public knows them by their appearance in novels, horror films, comic books, TV programs, etc. They are very scary individuals. Fortunately, they don't exist.

Vampyres are real individuals who are certain that they have a condition requiring them to obtain additional supplies of energy in order to maintain their health. Some need to extract this energy from the blood of animals or humans. Others are able to obtain it from people by other means, or from nature itself. "

"Vampyres are real individuals who are certain that they have a condition..."

Would you include prepubescent children at sunday communion in that definition?

but would you?

do you really think the wine turns to blood? or that someone's faith can make it do so? hmmm.

"do you really think the wine turns to blood?" &c

i never characterized myself as a believer.

why don't you ask the christian?

I never characterized myself one way or the other either.

Why don't we let the christian speak to the issue. Unless there was something else?

Sorry about the late reply; I would've gotten back to you guys earlier, but I just got back 20 minutes ago from camping.

'You all eat this dead guy every week, so you can achieve eternal life.

That's cannibalism and vampirism. You make kids participate in it, too.

How's that for a start on "what's wrong with christianity the belief not the people"?'

I do hope you understand that we eat bread and drink wine (or grape juice, depending on the church), not Christ's physical body and blood. If you do not understand this, you are extremely misinformed, to the point of hilarity. (Sidenote: We don't have communion every week, or at least not in my church. Maybe others do.)

Assuming you do understand this, then you also understand a thing called symbolism. There's plenty of it in the Bible. I do hope you have read the story of The Last Supper. If not, let me reiterate what I have said in earlier comments: it is a waste of my time to debate with you. Until you have read that which you attack, there is nothing I can do to give you reason to receive my arguments as valid.

Let me begin explaining the symbolism of communion, then. The first thing we do is break the bread. This symbolizes the breaking of Christ's body on the cross, it symbolizes his death. We then eat the bread and drink the wine/juice. As bread and wine give life (if you do not eat or drink, you will die), Christ's death, the spilling of his blood, gives life, eternal life, to all those who believe in Him. Does this make sense?

As for making kids participate in it, that is the children's parents' doing, not the pastor's. Parents choose to raise their children how they wish (to an extent), and so if they choose to make their children participate in communion, that is the parents' decision.

'so you can achieve eternal life'

I'm not sure what exactly you mean by this. If you mean that we think we have to participate in communion regularly to have eternal life, allow me to tell you that you are wrong. My church also believes that water baptism is not necessary for salvation. Communion and water baptism are merely symbols to represent that which has already happened in reality. Communion represents the life-giving effects of Christ's death, water baptism represents the baptism of the Holy Spirit that occurs on the moment you choose to believe in Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection. Keep in mind, however, that some churches do believe that communion and/or water baptism are necessary for salvation.

I eagerly await your reply.

Let me stand corrected:

You all AT LEAST SYMBOLICALLY eat this dead guy every week OR SO, so you can achieve eternal life WHEN YOU GO TO HEAVEN. MANY BELIEVE THEY ARE LITERALLY DOING SO.

That's A FANTASY OF cannibalism and vampirism. MANY CHRISTIANS make kids participate in it, too.

How's that for a start on "what's wrong with christianity the belief not the people"?

everything we eat is dead. I do remember hearing about a dish served to Walter Cronkite where the fish was still flopping it's head and tail although the center was cooked. WC lost his appetite I heard. But in general, everything we eat is dead. No big deal. Remember the Donner Party?

'Let me stand corrected:

You all AT LEAST SYMBOLICALLY eat this dead guy every week OR SO, so you can achieve eternal life WHEN YOU GO TO HEAVEN. MANY BELIEVE THEY ARE LITERALLY DOING SO.

That's A FANTASY OF cannibalism and vampirism. MANY CHRISTIANS make kids participate in it, too.

How's that for a start on "what's wrong with christianity the belief not the people"?'

To say we symbolically eat a dead man just doesn't make sense. You can't do this mix and match thing where you pair the symbolism of one part of the ceremony with the literalism of another part. Literally, we are eating bread and drinking wine/juice. Symbolically, we are receiving eternal life because of Christ's death (it has nothing to do with eating or drinking anything).

'MANY BELIEVE THEY ARE LITERALLY DOING SO.'
Is that not, again, a problem with the people? If they would pursue knowledge of the religion they claim to hold faith in, they would not be so ignorant.

I'll tell you what's wrong with Christianity: it's delusional, dysfunctional, and pathological. As usual, these go hand in hand. You've made this huge emotional investment in it for two reasons: 1) a father fixation straight out of the mentality of a four-year-old kid 2) FEAR (i.e. INSECURITY that goes even deeper into childhood).

Okay, I know from long experience with you chowderheads that the last didn't register, so here it is again: FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR

You're pathetic cowards

Of all the things that scare you, the Biggy is the impenetrable mystery of death. A more intrepid type of human only needs to know that IT COMES sure as nightfall and you never know when, and as for what it is you'll find out when you get there and not one second sooner. It's the only way anybody ever really knows. Until then, the business of existence is LIFE and this other question will answer itself in due time. There's no way you can fully control death or escape it or penetrate it in advance (brainwashed asshole belief systems aside) and having reconciled yourself with this inescapable logic, you realize there's no point dwelling on it for even one second. Doing so is a profoundly diseased activity captured perfectly by the word 'morbid.' As soon as you've slipped into doing this it would be best for all concerned if a Leopard came up behind you and helped you answer your stupid little question. So just set it completely aside and for Tree's sake don't let it frame your "sanity" or control your life.

This is a beautiful lucid liberated mental state, free of craven infantile neurotic residues.

Your system of belief is dysfunctional and pathological because for one thing it leads you to indeed dwell on death and allow it to structure your life. You're convinced you know what lies beyond the door of this most perfect mystery. And why? Because goo-goo-Mama say it so and goo-goo-Dada say it so and goo-goo-Dada up in Sky say it so and dat good enuff for goo-goo Baby. Also you have this egotistical need to believe you know everything (another infantile mental habit the truly mature thinker will reject as an impediment). That's really all it is with you. Buying into this cheap recieved wisdom allows you to totally cop out on the timeless existential challenges of LIFE and by doing so remain in infancy.

Keeping you infantile is ABSOLUTELY what Christianity is about! Scared little cowering babies with adult bodies make ideal slaves, and Christianity is in fact a perceptual- & social-engineering program imposed from above to lock you and all the other slaves into a mental womb/cage of your own making. Christianity is a slave religion. So is Buddhism. Indeed, most of the religions associated with "civilizations" are really about supporting enslavement, i.e. resignation to powerlessness, neurotic guilt-ridden crippling of will, blind acceptance of class society's postulates (which will enrage any morally inclined THINKING person), and so on.

Christianity is in fact only one element of the Western "happy slave" social engineering program. Before your earliest Christian ancestor could be made to accept it, he/she first had to grow up within a patriarchal family culture with an adult male authority figure as the centerpiece, ideally in a monogamous or polygynous context. This is a pretty unnatural situation relative to most of human history, and it's a necessary brain-softener for imposing belief in a metaphysical Big Daddy authority figure lounging around on a cloud somewhere. The roots of this daft "spirituality" are laid down by cowering before a petty tyrant flesh-and-blood version in early childhood*. Otherwise patriarchal religion will just seem stupid (horrors). Forcing human society at spearpoint into "nuclear families" was therefore step one of the Great Western Social Engineering program.

*(this sheds light on the contrast between the vindictive asshole Old Testament God and the kinder gentler New Testament God. Early on in the monotheistic social engineering effort, men would have been knuckle-dragging brutes very ill-suited to being around children. They were probably extremely abusive, and so too was this culture's concept of God. With time, patriarchal culture's selection regime made neurotic obedience adaptive, deepened the psychology of enslavement, and led to the feminization of men, making them more like the New Testament deity. Christian belief adapted to this new model of maleness.)

Railroading all of you into believing in a patriarchal God whose knowledge is perfect and whose power is total is itself just a big setup for the REAL agenda, which is getting you to grovel before the POWER OF KINGS in an identical infant-imbecile manner.

The real purpose of Christianity -- like virtually every other "civilized" social institution -- is servicing the political agenda of absolute class dictatorship.

None of this needed to be the Kings' big genius master plan from the beginning, any more than the Egg needed to be the Chicken's big genius master plan. This is evolution, which literally 'just happens.' Whup, there go your heads exploding now. Good thing there's not enough in there to make a mess.

To sum up, Christianity is dysfunctional, pathological, and **STUPID** because:
1) It promotes/imposes an arrested infantile mental state. In keeping with infantilization, you're severe narcissists and this imaginary humanoid God is really just an excuse to worship yourselves
2) It makes you eager stupid slaves, i.e. the most contemptible waste of oxygen imaginable
3) It causes you to live for "the Next Life" instead of this one. For this reason many of you don't think this planet's total environmental destruction matters, it's just "God's Plan." That right there makes Satans out of all you fucking insects. You're such dehumanized mental degenerates you don't know a real deity when it's right in front of you, and so you're killing it. What do you call a thing that's out to kill God?

Before subjecting me to your insufferably stupid and condescending denials, rest assured that my contempt for your opinions is absolute. Picture me hawking deeply and plastering your face with a big gloppy loogy the second you start with your simpering self-adoring noises. Oh, go ahead, fuck-brain, turn the other cheek

Would any so-inclined Christian, then, care to explain the Miracle of Transubstantiation? Ohhhh, so you're not Catholic, or Orthodox, is what you're arguing.

Well, awright, Mr. Protestant. If it's only a "symbolic" myth from the point of view of believers LIKE YOU, then you won't mind if my heavy-metal band desecrates the host every Saturday night, for an appreciative and sophisticated audience who also understands it's just a symbolic ritual.

Right? How about, say, a cricifix in a jar of piss?

Or for that matter, some hot babe doing herself with one? Say.... isn't that what dragged Kevin onto this site to begin with?

Hey, it's just a symbol. Why so uptight?

How about some federal funding with which to do so?

PS: Do you think the little kids in the audience at church understand that the Eucharist is merely symbolic of the guy tortured to death by the state? Even if you don't actually use crucifixes above the altar, I've seen enough Protestant literature to know y'all will use a good bloody-Jesus picture when it suits your purposes. "See how much god loves you? He loves you THIS MUCH...." with the nails and the thorns and all that.

Real wholesome stuff for the single-digit set to contemplate, surely.

'Before subjecting me to your insufferably stupid and condescending denials, rest assured that my contempt for your opinions is absolute. Picture me hawking deeply and plastering your face with a big gloppy loogy the second you start with your simpering self-adoring noises. Oh, go ahead, fuck-brain, turn the other cheek'
That is exactly why I won't bother to argue with you. As you stated above, you receive my opinions with the greatest disrespect possible. With such an attitude you will assume that anything I say contrary to your beliefs is false without giving it the slightest bit of thought. Perhaps it is only instinct for you now.

If you want any counter to your arguments, try saying something without including any of your magniloquent slights.

But wait, you don't want a debate, you just want to be able to call me a "fuck-brain," "pathetic coward," "narcissist," "Satan," "fucking insect," and "dehumanized mental degenerate."

I do hope that your day has been made a little better by making me a victim of the rage you hold inside of you. It is the least good that could come out of this situation.



As for anyone else, please feel free to respond to my previous arguments.

To "is another's Just Plain Gross," author of "One person's stupid....": I will respond to you sometime soon, but it seems the mood has escaped me for the timebeing.

It's just you weren't exactly ripping them a new one with all that vampire/cannibal stuff

Most Americans think he was of a northern European disposition, often depicting Him with blue eyes and blond hair.

Nothing in the Bible supports this characterization of Jesus.

It actually refers to dark skin and kinky hair, although not in those exact words.

So, Jesus lovers, what color do you think your Guy was? What color is He in your illustrated Bibles, paintings, movies, and crucifix statues?

"...you just want to be able to call me..."

a brainwashed asshole
egotistical
a scared little cowering baby with an adult body
a happy slave
an infant-imbecile
not enough [brains] to make a mess [even if your head exploded]
a dishonest self-worshipper
the most contemptible waste of oxygen imaginable

Jeez, pay attention

Templeton, huh? Isn't that the name of a rat? You should seek the company of the zionists around here; you have SO MUCH in common with them! They can help you make the most of your ratliness. It's too bad you're on their grudge list, but you know how it is: some Christian gave a Jew a parking ticket in Constantinople in 412 AD so now they're still stabbing Ka-bars into voodoo dolls over it. "Never forgive, never forget." You still have a lot in common though. Cowardice, deep dishonesty, extreme narcissism... It's just silly that you can't worship your mutual fake G-d together

Re: Jesus' race - well, if he was born Jewish, and from where he hails, I'm assuming he had the olive skin tone & probably dark, curly/kinky hair. Perhaps was darker given the sun. But FWIW, there are blue-eyed Jews (as well as Puerto Ricans & other dark-skinned races, like w/in ma familia) but I'm sure the artists who portrayed Him that way did so to appeal to the (then-European) masses... If you believe the viability of the Shroud of Turin, it probably reflects a bit more viable portrait of Him (tho' I've seen Him portrayed in many colours, myself...).

Oh, and "It causes you to live for "the Next Life" instead of this one" - correction: we live this life in preparation for the final one, not in lieu of. What we do now will matter greatly in the end.

But then, I know, you don't care, you got it all solved, you aren't listening, yada-yada. But then, I shouldn't get a response, should I....?

Modern blue-eyed Jews aren't of full Levantine ancestry. Their bloodlines have contributions from ethnic Germans, East Europeans, etc. They're mongrels. They have about as much of a blood claim to Israel as my neighbor's Rottweiler/Border Collie cross.

'Jesus' race - well, if he was born Jewish, and from where he hails, I'm assuming he had the olive skin tone & probably dark, curly/kinky hair.'
He's got it right there. Why lots of church-goers think he's white...well, there are lots of things that we tend to unconsciously assume if we aren't on the look-out for them.

I encourage you to listen to the song, "My Jesus" by Todd Agnew, however. In it he calls the people of the church on their misperceptions of Jesus.
Here's one part of the lyrics:
"Pretty blue eyes, curly brown hair and a clear complexion
Is how you see Him as He dies for Your sins
But the Word says He was battered and scarred
Or did you miss that part
Sometimes I doubt we’d recognize Him"
http://www.klove.com/lyrics/lyrics.asp?2458

"poor Lordy-Jesus dumb-ass" - ah, sounds like Red out of That 70's show. Articulate to the end....

Again, I told you my view of what He probably looked like - and since I'm not the expert on the DNA possibilities of having a blue-eyed individual spit out within a society of brown-eyed ones any more than why a mulatto (sp?) does, I'll leave that to pros like you. It was only an opinion, as asked - and I never professed it to be an expert one. I'll leave that to the well-educated ones like you who default to cursing in lieu of their dictionary instead.

As for "he's got it right", who said I was a male...? ;-)

'As for "he's got it right", who said I was a male...? ;-)'
Hehe, oops...I think it was the whole MO thing - made me think Mo, and that's the name of one of the Three Stooges. Er, anyways...

To "is another's Just Plain Gross," author of "One person's stupid....": Your argument doesn't work. While each of those things may be "just a symbol," they are deliberately designed to be offensive. They aren't comparable with communion.

FYI, the "hot babe doing herself with one [crucifix]" was not what "dragged Kevin onto this site to begin with." If you care to look, you will notice that my comment rebuking the poster of that image was not my first, but my fourth comment.


TW - You have made the claim that Christianity is about making us infantile so that we are willing slaves, locking us in a mental womb/cage of our own making. Do this for me. Read through Matthew 18 ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=18&version=31 ) and point out to me where there are things that make us infantile. If you can't find anything, maybe you should try 1 Corinthians 13 ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2013;&version=31; ). I strongly encourage you to find examples in the Bible to back up your argument.

when you argue with me about the wrongness of satanism, I strongly encourage you to use arguements in the satanic bible.

yes, you cannot disparage satanism without reading the entire satanic bible and quoting passages from it with which to make your case


of course, you will not find anything in the bible that says religious authorities' purpose is to make you ignorant sheep, but, oh, wait, yeah, there's the whold sheep and shepherd analogy. so, yes, the bible clearly states you are to bow down to god, and religious authorities interpret that to their own benefit in that you need to bow down to their authority and interpretations of the bible. you are their sheep. do not think. have faith that when preacher joe tells you about the homosexuality being an abomination part of the bible and never mentions the eating shellfish is an abomination part or the stay away from menstrating women part or the jesus said to basically ignore the fire and brimstone old testament altogether, you take it on faith that he knows the parts god wants you to know and the rest doesn't matter. let preacher joe do your thinkin' for ya. let ron luce tell you what's up

You think the cooked language in that moldy old book trumps plain realities right in front of you. I don't let my parents or culture or media or some 55-gallon can of doctrine off a shelf tell me what to think. I derive my own conclusions and my own grasp of morality from the most profound "scripture": the empirical information laid out in plain sight by this mind-boggling thing called 'reality.' If there's really some old bastard lounging on a cloud somewhere testing us, my bet is this is what the test is really about. It's sure a lot more challenging and epic than what you're doing.

I actually don't reject the possibility of a higher plane populated by higher beings, but where you take this idea is just transparently ridiculous. Like I said it's an interpretation right out of the psychology of some insecure four-year-old kid. Your dream of heavenly paradise is to go bop on grampa's knee for the rest of eternity. PYOOK. That's all the empirical information I need, right there, for my assertion that yours is a faith of arrested infants.

You want to meet God, Templeton? Forget about that old man in your head. Go to the Muir Woods and stand in the presence of earthly deities.

Clueless-xian-wonder wrote:

"...they are deliberately designed to be offensive. They aren't comparable with communion."


I think pretending to eat dead people and drink their blood, and encouraging children to do so in a social setting, is deliberately offensive. I mean, if kids are introduced to that kind of thing early on, it kind of normalizes atrocity and violence. Buy them a video game console, pack em off to JROTC, and next thing ya know, Guantanamo! Woo-hoo!

I know, it's not just for fuckingchristians anymore. That said, no wonder christians are a) so fucked up, and b) have this disturbing tendency to fuck up other people without really even thinking about it, sometimes without even apparently noticing. [New World Genocide.] After all, how can it compare to The Wounds Of Our Lord(tm)? which you can recite by location and time received.

Torture worship. How appropriate to the times.

Hey, Sadomasochism in a consensual relationship between adults is one thing. But as a public practice, as a governing policy, as a presumption of the way the world works, it is disturbed.

And plenty of people find it offensive. And there's the fuckingchristians, right in the middle of it, still drinking ritual blood!!

BTW, this started with your request that someone tell you what is wrong with christianity-the-belief-not-the-people. I think just brushing off responses, as you've tried to do here, is a dodge.

Why don't you tell us why it's good to ritually drink the blood and eat the flesh of a guy who was tortured to death 2000 years ago by the state, and why anyone should be allowed to present such a spectacle to impressionable young children as if it were normal, sane behavior.

Something like you implicitly promised to do by inviting the criticism to begin with.

Not that we don't all have a pretty good idea what a christian's word is worth anymore.... Free Slavery and Genocide for the Whole Family!!

either pretend to eat the god or destroy the god or goddess or sacrificial victim so that the crops will come in, or the people will not suffer, etc.

Let's be fair, it's not only Christians that used human sacrifice.

Pagans prognosticated from the entrails of animals.

it's the issue of human sacrifice not cannibalism that needs to be discussed.

Also, if you want to get technical, plants are alive. Even if you're vegan you eat things which had to die. What's the diff?

To survive you need to extract the life force from other creatures. Period.

the answers to this quiz would surprise many of the Battlecryers...

http://www.ffrf.org/quiz/ffrfquiz.php

"either pretend to eat the god or destroy the god or goddess or sacrificial victim so that the crops will come in, or the people will not suffer, etc."


Okay, well does that make it alright? Especially in a scientific age when we know what makes crops come in, people suffer, etc?

Furthermore, is it alright to turn around and use the mechanisms of the state to enforce such a value system on a population?

The argument is that this is something that wrong with Christianity as a belief system. Any meaningful rejoinder needs to speak to that concern, not ignore it in an attempt to reject the line of reasoning.

Will no one step up and defend communion for what it is?!

symbolism? Or are you as intent on being a literalist as the evangelists here?

Are Unitarians also the source of all evil? Do all Christians SUCK?

No they don't. And they don't all want to ram their personal beliefs down your throat, unlike Luce and his teenaged minions.

Freedom OF religion and freedom FROM religion are equally important.

Isn't it an incredible day, when the best Christians can muster in defense of some of their most sacred rituals, is that they're not really real?

why do you assume that last comment was made by a Christian?

I respect your opinion, and do not intend to mock you. Please read this and give it some thought. Remember that Christians are humans too, who are also entitled to an opinion. Our opinions are just different than yours. Also remember that I am not judging you. My goal in all this is simply to show you what I believe to be the truth and let you evaluate it for yourself. I have followed numerous quotes from your post with a response, starting with:

1. “You're pathetic cowards”

My response to this is simple. Could you really look in the eyes just one of the thousands of Christians who have been murdered because they refused to recant their beliefs and say, “you are a pathetic coward.” Is a man who accepts a genuine and free invitation into another man’s home to avoid a terrible storm a coward? Think about it. The question is not whether it is cowardly to accept Christ. The question is whether Christ is who he said he is. If he is, how foolish would it be to reject his invitation?

2. “ It promotes/imposes an arrested infantile mental state. In keeping with infantilization, you're severe narcissists and this imaginary humanoid God is really just an excuse to worship yourselves”

On the contrary, true Christianity is the opposite of worshiping oneself. Does this verse promote “self-worship?”:

Young men, in the same way be submissive to those who are older. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility towards one another, because, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." – 1 Peter 5:5

3. “It makes you eager stupid slaves, i.e. the most contemptible waste of oxygen imaginable”

What exactly is a slave? You obey the laws of your country. Are you not in a sense a slave to them? Christians simply accept the teachings of Jesus and the Bible as truth. That being said, we have a desire to obey God’s commands. We do it willingly, as we know it leads to true freedom from our own sin. Jesus put it like this:

31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.
32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." – John 8: 31-32


The following definition for “stupid” was found at dictionary.com:

Stupid:

Slow to learn or understand; obtuse.
Tending to make poor decisions or careless mistakes.
Marked by a lack of intelligence or care; foolish or careless: a stupid mistake.
Dazed, stunned, or stupefied.
Pointless; worthless: a stupid job.

Would you be willing to say that this describes great Christian minds such as C.S. Lewis, Abraham Lincoln, and Benjamin Franklin? I agree with you that a person who only believes something because their parents told it to them is foolish. Believe it or not though, there are many Christians, including myself, who have spent countless hours researching and probing the very foundation and validity of what we believe. What we have found has only served to strengthen our beliefs.

4. “It causes you to live for "the Next Life" instead of this one. For this reason many of you don't think this planet's total environmental destruction matters, it's just "God's Plan.” That right there makes Satans out of all you f@#$%*& insects.”

We live for God now, knowing that this life is finite in nature, and that it alone can never completely fulfill us. Many atheists could also care less about the environment, and are only concerned with making money. That’s simply a political view and or attitude that many people Christians and non-Christians alike share. Christianity in no way teaches us to destroy the environment. We just aren’t commanded to make preserving it the number one priority. A selfish political view held by some Christians does not make all Christians evil.

5. “Before subjecting me to your insufferably stupid and condescending denials, rest assured that my contempt for your opinions is absolute. Picture me hawking deeply and plastering your face with a big gloppy loogy the second you start with your simpering self-adoring noises. Oh, go ahead, f#@*-brain, turn the other cheek”

I think you’ve pretty much summed up your whole attitude here. You say your contempt for my opinion is absolute, but you had never heard it before writing this. This attitude could keep you from learning a great deal, and thereby keep you from making a truly informed decision concerning the whole matter. Honestly ask yourself what would cause you to feel like this. Fear is the best motivation that I can think of. You fear that you might see some sense in what a Christian might have to say, and that you might have to reevaluate your beliefs and your life. Let me remind you that I am not judging you. I would rather that you come to the truth of God than be judged or reprimanded by me, being only a man. You might hate me for this, or you might not, but I will pray for you. I won’t pray for you self-righteously, but simply as one who sincerely cares about you and anyone else who does not know the Lord Jesus.

that was a bit of a ramble. besides, that comment was made months ago.

I simply went through and addressed some arguments made by someone on the other side, and that's rambling? What's the point in debating if you can't even address the arguments made by the opposing side? By the way, all of the posts before mine were written "months ago." That was simply the one I felt like addressing.

Those that hate God seem so angry about it. And the anger seems to rest right on top of a foundation of pride. "If I met God, I'd tell him that....!" Sure you would! If you met God, you'd probably actually have a panic attack or wet your pants. At least be honest. So big and tough! So angry! Are you going to talk big even while you are dying? You can pretend now that you would, but the truth is simple. You will not. You will be scared. Perhaps that is one reason death is here...to give humans something to think about!

But I ask myself why non-Christians are so obsessed with hating Christianity. They don't seem obsessed with hating Buddhism or that 10 armed Hindu lady. Why? Because they know it is stupid. Christianity is an obsession to them because they are afraid it is real. Why not protest about how stupid Neo-Paganism is? About the stupidity of tree worship and earth worship? Because they know it is silly, and it does not bother them.

But there is an old summary that still holds true today.


2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.
2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.


2:3 describes the feeling of many in San Francisco with precision. They never seem to tire of trying to prove that they are free from God. Free free free. And is started with free "love", didn't it?

Those in San Francisco should be wary of talking big about hating God...they live terribly close to the sea and the fault line. We are at 2:3 right now...to talk big until you arrive at 2:4 and 2:5 would not be wise.

I know of Battle Cry and Teen Mania. Perhaps I have more experience with it than anyone else commenting here. I've been to the events, I've even led some events. In my home community, which is majority fundamentalist Christian, involvement with the church and this group is just as matter of fact as breathing.

I can think of 35 people in my peer group who were heavily involved with the church and the community as teens and young adults. I know of only four that are today, sort of. Most of us grew up and moved on when we left home.

Leaving home and moving to the big city was the key to unlocking my true spiritual growth and potential. Living side by side with so many people from all different walks of life, I learned true messages of love and tolerance and cooperation. I understood that there are many paths, not One True Path.

More importantly, I realized that much of what I had been "taught" as a child had nothing to do with the gospel of a man named Jesus Christ, but everything to do with twisted individuals like Mr. Luce cloaking their sick messages of hate in slick marketing disguised as religion.

But I'll tell you what you should do about Battle Cry this weekend: Tolerate them.

Don't accept them.

Don't like them.

Just tolerate them. Why? Because this group, due to its marketing message and demographic, loves confrontation. Tolerating them is the absolute worst thing you can do, it takes the wind right out from under their sails, just like a parent expressing approval at every stage of Junior's rebellion attempts. It's depressing and infuriating to them.

Let them have their events at the ballpark, "doing battle" by mumbling arcane incantations behind fences and security. Just coming to The City has already begun to change them in ways they won't understand until years after the scales have fallen from their eyes.

Think of this weekend as being made of win, folks. There are more of us than there are of them, anyway, and that's one truth they can't dispute.