Alcohol smashed in Oakland, California

Article Last Updated: 11/25/2005 07:26 AM
Oakland liquor stores under siege
Suspected Black Muslims warn business owners not to sell alcohol to African Americans
By Cecily Burt, STAFF WRITER
Inside Bay Area
OAKLAND — Abdul Saleh has just one question for the men — suspected by authorities to be Black Muslims — who trashed his corner store late Wednesday, terrorizing his 17-year-old son and another clerk and causing thousands of dollars in damage.

Why?

"I don't know why they tried to destroy my life," said Saleh, who has owned San Pablo Market and Liquor in West Oakland since 1986. "We came here for a better living, not to make war with anybody."

About a dozen African-American men wearing suits, white-collared shirts and bow ties — a trademark of the Nation of Islam — entered the store on San Pablo Avenue and West Street around 11:30 p.m.

One went behind the counter and swept dozens of shelved liquor bottles to the floor. Others smashed glass refrigerator doors with long slim metal pipes, breaking beer and wine bottles inside the cases. The whole incident from start to finish was caught on surveillance tape.

The men warned the store clerks to stop selling alcohol to African Americans, but they also knocked over display racks containing bread and other food items. Then, almost as quickly as they arrived, they all filed out and headed to another West Oakland liquor store, New York Market at Market and 35th streets, where they did the same thing.

Although the men did not identify themselves as Black Muslims or members of the Nation of Islam, police suspect that's who was behind the attacks, based on the attackers' attire.

"There was no warning. They never camein before," Saleh said Thursday morning.

He had cleaned up the broken glass, but a pool of liquid still dripped from inside the taped-up refrigerator cases, and the entire floor inside the bright corner store was sticky.

The storage area was filled with bins of broken beer, wine and liquor bottles. Milk crates filled with champagne and small bottles of Remy Martin and Hennessey cognac were on the floor, waiting for someone to rinse them off and make sure they weren't broken.

The expense was large, but that was not on Saleh's mind.

"My son was here," Saleh said. "He was scared. When he called me he could not even speak.

"It makes me nervous, it's scary. They say, 'We will be back.' If the city of Oakland can't protect us, or a secur-

ity guard, what can they do with 12 or 13 people? I'm worried for my employees. I'm worried for my son's safety and my own safety. I am supporting two families from this place, 30 people."

At New York Market, a busy corner store that offers fortified beer and wine but no hard liquor, the owner, Tony, who just took over the store three months ago and did not want to use his last name, said the group was targeting alcohol when it should be after drugs.

"Before they talk about alcohol, they should talk about all the drugs and heroin on the street," he said.

His cousin was minding the store when the men came in at 11:40 p.m. At one point, his cousin reached for a shotgun behind the counter, but the men took it away from him, Tony said.

"I'm not worried. Let them come back," he said. "I'm not chokin' nobody, telling them to buy alcohol."

He might not be worried, but other market owners are.

One owner, who did not want to be identified for fear of reprisal, said he was scared, and compared what happened to a terrorist attack.

"It's worse than al-Qaida," he said. "They run into people's stores like that, anything can happen. Somebody is going to get hurt. When that happens, you don't know what your reaction is going to be. It's like somebody running into your house.

"We have to protect ourselves by any means necessary. If the police don't protect us, who will help us? They could do that to every store."

Representatives from Oakland's Black Muslim community did not return a phone call seeking comment about the incident.

Oakland's Deputy Chief Howard Jordan said police are very concerned and have ordered extra patrols in the area to try to protect the stores.

Jordan said they are investigating the incidents as hate crimes because most of the stores are owned and operated by Arabs or Arab Americans, and the suspects are telling them not to sell liquor to African Americans.

"It's vandalism and terrorism," he said. "We're characterizing it as a hate crime and actively pursuing all leads."

Jordan said the department is concerned about how widespread the attacks could become, especially with the large number of liquor stores in East and West Oakland, most located within African-American communities. The suspects did not attempt to hide their identities.

"We don't know if more are planned or this was an isolated incident," Jordan said. "We are looking at all the possibilities. If there are any trends, our intelligence units will track it nationwide."

He's also worried about people getting hurt or killed in an attempt to protect themselves and their property.

"We're not going to tell (the store owners) to arm themselves, but if it happens, it's a big concern," Jordan said. "We could have victims all over Oakland."

Anyone with information about the attacks is asked to call police at 238-3426 or 238-6946. A reward of up to $2,000 is being offered in each case.

The NOI, if at the root of this attack, are on another of their crusades to inflict their warped notions of how life should be lived on the black community. Usually content to stick to beating their own memebers, they occasionally target their neighbors under the veil of do-good. I wish that the media and policital leaders would spend a bit more time calling this ground on the carpet. Only then will they be seen as absolutely self-interested and corrupt with their religion, and not as 'leaders in the black community' 'brining change where no one else tried'.

This was a crime and the police have clear pictures of the perps from the video. The only question here is, will the Oakland cops do their job and round up these idiots?

These people are imposing their religious beliefs on others who by the nature fo the situation don't want them. If they di, the alcohol wqouldn't need to be samshed. It would rot (does alcohol actually rot?) on the shelves of the stores with no takers.And not everybody in the African-American communjity who drinks ab uses alcohol. Why should they be punished for those that do? And why should a small storekeeper be punished for the religious beliefs of a minority of the community.

The Nation of Islam according to Channel 2 news last night, denies doing this. So the NOI may be lying, or it may be a spin-off group, or it may be a whole otehr group trying to cast blame on the NOI. Whoever is doing this wrong, sncd good people who don't want religious bigots running our lives and any community, should be protecting these stores in the same way we defend clinics from Operation Rescue and other Christian fundamentalists. Write me and i'll be willing to help.

While I don't agree with the attack, I also think that this is more complex than a simple matter of personal choice. As the blog author that is referred to in the original post states (click on the URL to see what I'm talking about,) there is a serious problem with poor african american and latino communities having an overwhelming abundance of liquor stores in their communities. While people can make their choices on their own (as well they should,) a closer look at both the presence of liquor stores and the presence of crack and heroin in these communities doesn't paint a healthy picture. As such, the line between providing ample access and shoving it down people's throats is finer than you think. I do think its messed up that an individual shop owner was targeted -- just another example of ordinary people being divided against each other in the midst of a genocidal war. But I can also understand how people get to that breaking point. Now, if it turns out that the NOI is involved despite their claims to the contrary, well, that changes things. I'd rather wait and see than judge, however.

That all being said, as long as the state pours alcohol and drugs into poor communities (along with loads of subliminal advertising for legal drugs such as alcohol, and quick, cheap access for both legal and illegal drugs, such as crack and heroin) while the schools fall apart and people live in war zones, you'll have vigilante attacks like what happened the other night. If anything, vigilantes and the state are two sides of the same coin, who just seem to be in opposition. A prime example of this is how white middle class vigilantes move into a neighborhood such as South Berkeley, then immediately start going on about "making the neighborhood safe," which for some reason is frequently followed by the prices going up and all the people of color being driven out. Get pissed at the people who did the attack if you want, but at least know who's really pulling the strings here. I mean, who are the real criminals here, you know?

So, what is the solution? I think it lies in genuine grass roots community organizing and education, as well as providing economic and social alternatives -- and unfortunately, there's not enough of that to go around. There could be, but the state seems too preoccupied with saving its ass at the moment (Iraq) to spend time coming up with solutions, and don't get me started about non-profits -- while there are good ones out there, a lot of them are more about preservation of their institutions than actually getting shit done -- just like the state, imagine that.

As far as providing models for people to take back communities on their own (AKA anarchism) -- well, great, get to work, son, ya know? Anarchy is fine and all, but anarchy (or more specifically, anarchism) that doesn't promote and create viable alternatives in a respectful way is just another box of soap on the shelf, and a rather empty one at that. I mean, most anarchists in the East Bay (but not all) are white, and don't have deep ties in poor communities, especially poor communities of color in the East Bay. Please show some care in evaluating communities that may be right down the block, but in reality, may as well live thousands of miles away from where you sit. (I'm not saying everybody who is a white anarchist in the East Bay is full of beans, so please don't turn what I just said into an over-generalizaion. All I'm saying is that to understand a community other than your own, it takes a lot of work -- and sometimes, even a lifetime of work isn't enough. Understand? I hope so.)

...on stuff but "No Heroes" believing these realistic and legitimate questions on an issue which he happens to disagree is trolling, makes who the troll?

No hereos-- You don't know shit. You sound like an irrating activist-type that goes around implementing behavior modification on whites who don't tow your idealogical fantasies.

You said:
A prime example of this is how white middle class vigilantes move into a neighborhood such as South Berkeley, then immediately start going on about "making the neighborhood safe," which for some reason is frequently followed by the prices going up and all the people of color being driven out.

Go to any neighborhood meeting in the flatlands of the east bay and their will be plenty of (mostly older) black people complaing about the crime situation. Maybe you should do some listening. The situation in South Berkeley is unfortunate but to call the neighbors "white vigilantes" is ludicrous rhetoric from leftists dingbats who offer zero solutions to day to day problems in urban communities. Race-baiting rhetoric besides being idiotic and dishonest, block actual solutions.

Though I don't live in south Berkeley I bet if you do a poll of black residents most would support the lawsuit against Ms. Moore who has let people deal drugs from here property since the late 80's!!!!! She was sued in 92 for the same BS before the so-called white vigilantes moved in.

The people trashing liquor stores are more fascist than not despite the do-gooder pose that Chris in the post above wisely points out.

Let me make a speculation about this. Since the child rapist Yusef Bey died there has been a factional war within the black muslim hierachy of Oakland. There has been 2 murders and an assasination attempt in the last few months. This is probably connected in some weird way-- such as a certain faction trying to prove their true piousness.

>...on stuff but "No Heroes" believing these realistic and legitimate questions on an issue which he happens to disagree is trolling, makes who the troll?

I have no problem asking the question, as long as it doesn't appear that someone's putting out troll bait.

To address what I think you're getting at (and to some degree to address the person who appears (at least to me) to be trolling: I think people have a right to self-defense in their communities, especially when it's not, oh, organized by a religion or state to push their agenda. As I said before, if this is a NOI thing as opposed to a neighborhood thing, that does change things.

On the other hand, the impact of these liquor stores is well-documented and discussed in communities of color. It's part of a larger genocide against communities of color.

In terms of whether or not mormons would be justified in trashing a head shop: well, I feel like this is contextually illogical. While mormons have been oppressed at times in history, they're not encountering a systematic attempt to wipe them off the face of the map. It's like comparing someone putting a gun to your head with someone slapping you.

Now, to some degre, meth is different. Meth is actually a health risk (explosive labs, f**ks up your body, etc.), while pot for all intents and purposes isn't (and if you don't smoke it, it's more beneficial than anything.) So...if a bunch of people in, say, Lake County were to smash apart a meth lab, well...if they didn't blow themselves up in the process, I'm not exactly losing a lot of sleep over that either. I mean, there's drugs, and there's poison. Some drugs happen to be poisonous, but most aren't (including by the way, heroin, unless you're talking about scary crap like black tar.) I suppose an argument could be made that if meth was legal, there could be quality control to minimize the risk both to manufacturers and users, but I don't really have any evidence to support that point.

The only reason that this is an issue is because alcohol is legal -- which it should be. Nevertheless, alcohol fucks up communities of color, as do crack -- and for that matter, cigarettes.

So. Question for you, Deanosor: in your view, to what degree is community self-control and autonomy in concordance with anarchist principles? For example, if smashing up a liquor store in Oakland isn't OK, is painting over a cigarette billboard in Oakland not OK as well? Is there a line, and if so, where should the line be drawn?

>No hereos-- You don't know shit. You sound like an irrating activist-type that goes around implementing behavior modification on whites who don't tow your idealogical fantasies.<

If you're going to talk to me that way, I'm not going to respond to you. Period.

Since you seem a tad sensitive. I apologize. I will destroy your arguments without insulting you from now on.

No hereos:" It's part of a larger genocide against communities of color."

Last I checked the demographics of the US were becoming less and less white by the day. So if whitey is on a racial genocidal campaign he's doing a bad job.

Sensitive? Naah. Just not willing to be flamed. Big difference.

>Last I checked the demographics of the US were becoming less and less white by the day. So if whitey is on a racial genocidal campaign he's doing a bad job.<

Um...whitey? Who is whitey in this context? George Bush? You? Bill Maher? Al Franken? I'm not the one who said "whitey," by the way.

In terms of racial demographics: majority demographics doesn't mean that you're not being attacked by the powers-that-be. Example? South Africa. While Oakland may not be under an overt policy of apartheid, I think you and I would agree that Oakland has a lot of problems. Where I suspect you and I differ is to what degree those problems are due to institutionalized racism.

So, let me ask you a question: what do you feel the place of a liquor store in West Oakland should be? Should it left alone? Be regulated? Have its license reviewed? Something else entirely? Further, why are drug dealers not OK (I'm presuming here that you're not pro-legalization, but I could be wrong about that), but alcohol dealers are? I admit calling the merchant who ran this shop a "dealer" is somewhat hyperbolic, but on the other hand, consider the saturation of stores in the neighborhood.

"Where I suspect you and I differ is to what degree those problems are due to institutionalized racism."

I disagreed with assertion that there's genocidal plans against communities of color. period. Its simply not true. If things change I'll be opposing it. In the mean time I'll oppose petty fascists like NOI.


So, let me ask you a question: what do you feel the place of a liquor store in West Oakland should be?

They're symptoms not causes. I support development in West Oakland like Walgreens and some middle and low income housing. As I remember some leftists opposed Walgreens in West O. I strongly disagree. Getting things like decent Grocery stores and banks in West O would be good. Of course these activist types start screaming gentrification and ethnic cleansing at every proposal.

Actually I do support drug legalization both in principal and on practical grounds. In other western countries (who have the advantage of a stronger safety net) the drug problem is nowhere as bad. Moralism about drug and alcohol use (by whites, blacks and everyone else) make the problem even worse-- like NOI.

I have mixed feelings about it. I use this store frequently, but mostly for alchohol, cigarettes, and occassional junk food, because that's about all they have. Occassional toilet paper, too. No produce ever. Nothing to make a real meal with that is not "just add water".

There are 3 liquor stores within 6 blocks but not a real grocery store for miles. Literally miles.

Still I don't wish harm on the owners/operators as they are generally nice people and put up with a fair amount of crap from some of the historically oppressed and neglected people who are their customers. Overall they get along with almost everyone who gets along with them, and they will cut people deals who are nice to them.

I do see where people might come to seriously resent these stores, though, and it's so ironic than many are run by Muslims who would never partake in what they are selling in poor neighborhoods everyday -- things I myself buy. But a good bit of anger should also go towards companies like Safeway who pulled their last store out of the neighborhood about 6 years ago (they had one on Broadway). Even older grocery stores in the area are now scraggly church's. There is a Whole Foods coming about a mile or so from here, but it will be a madhouse when it opens as the first return of a real grocery store in years and years to a long underserved neighborhood.

So, while I can appreciate the frustration, I also think there has to be a better solution. I would love to see the Black Muslims open a grocery store in the immediate area. There's got to be a number of unused storefronts that would make great small neighborhood groceries. Throughout this area of Oakland, and hell, all of Oakland for that matter, except in the hills where grocery stores outnumber liquor stores.

But then it all comes back to money. Maybe they can't afford the financial risk. I am in no position to open any kind of store myself. The big grocery stores have abandoned us. City officials cater to wealthier neighborhoods in working to bring in businesses that actually serve the local residents. They actually recently pulled eminent domain on a few small businesses that had been operating in the area for decades to give the land to Sears for their autoshop, so the former location of their autoshop can become apartments most people in this neighborhood can't afford. Eminent domain to give multi-generational business assets to Sears!

People are frustrated. I am frustrated. Sooner or later something will have to give. I just hope most of it is positive rather than destructive, and the coming gentrification will provide for this area's long term residents. Not that I have any reason to hope for such things, but I have to anyway.

>They're symptoms not causes. I support development in West Oakland like Walgreens and some middle and low income housing. As I remember some leftists opposed Walgreens in West O. I strongly disagree. Getting things like decent Grocery stores and banks in West O would be good. Of course these activist types start screaming gentrification and ethnic cleansing at every proposal.<

I've been known in the past to object to places such as Walgreen's, but I have to say, after having lived in Oakland, I'd rather see Walgreens than nothing. Still better would be locally run drug stores, groceries, etc. -- but good luck having a go of that, given the price of commercial rents. Maybe if the city got involved, but I'd rather not have Jerry-mander Brown touch anything (speaking of fascists). Well OK, he's not exactly a fascist, but he is a jerk. Oakland definitely needs a better mayor than governor moonbeam.

>Actually I do support drug legalization both in principal and on practical grounds. In other western countries (who have the advantage of a stronger safety net) the drug problem is nowhere as bad. Moralism about drug and alcohol use (by whites, blacks and everyone else) make the problem even worse-- like NOI.<

Like the poster who signed with "mixed feelings," I have mixed feelings as well. Overall, I agree with you -- but I guess what I'm getting at here is that I understand people's desparation. Chances are though is that this is either NOI or people who are part of NOI, which in my mind creates even more mixed feelings. Believe me, I'm no raving fan of NOI, but I also know a lot of the people who can't stand them don't lift a finger to do anything in poor communities like Oakland.

Thanks for sharing the realities of your neighborhood. Seriously.

>There are 3 liquor stores within 6 blocks but not a real grocery store for miles. Literally miles.<

There is pack and save, but it's at least a mile away and they're overpriced, last time I looked (it's been a while). In any case, yeah, the lack of basic services is staggering.

>Still I don't wish harm on the owners/operators as they are generally nice people and put up with a fair amount of crap from some of the historically oppressed and neglected people who are their customers. Overall they get along with almost everyone who gets along with them, and they will cut people deals who are nice to them.<

Dog eat dog, people against people. This is what I mean by genocide -- it's not about wiping people out wholesale, but a slow drip. It's not going to work, but that doesn't make it any less harmful.

>I do see where people might come to seriously resent these stores, though, and it's so ironic than many are run by Muslims who would never partake in what they are selling in poor neighborhoods everyday -- things I myself buy.<

Sigh. See, this is where my anarchist hackles get up. Imagine if people weren't forced to do things like what you're describing in order to survive. As the saying goes, "You don't have to fuck people over to survive" -- but when you have to focus on just getting by when people are divided and pitted against each other all around you, it can sure seem that you at least need to make hard choices just to make it to the next day. But as you noted, even in hard times, there are people who try to make it better for others, lighten the load a bit.

>But a good bit of anger should also go towards companies like Safeway who pulled their last store out of the neighborhood about 6 years ago (they had one on Broadway). Even older grocery stores in the area are now scraggly church's. There is a Whole Foods coming about a mile or so from here, but it will be a madhouse when it opens as the first return of a real grocery store in years and years to a long underserved neighborhood.<

Well yeah -- not only that, but (anon is going to love this) I think that Whole Foods could have a lot more to do with gentrifying the neighborhood than Walgreens ever could. Ordinary people can afford Walgreens, and while you can get your way around Whole Foods with little dough, you have to be both committed to buying the kinds of food they offer and highly enterprising to make it all work -- and even then, it's still a lot more expensive than Safeway (duh). I feel a "screw Whole Foods" rant coming on, so I'll keep on track here.

>So, while I can appreciate the frustration, I also think there has to be a better solution. I would love to see the Black Muslims open a grocery store in the immediate area.<

Oh heck yeah! OK, I guess I'm not making myself clear, or perhaps I really am a bundle of conflicted feelings around this. I agree with you 100% -- there have to be, and there are. The problem is that most of the people who have provided solutions don't really provide, well, solutions. But to be honest, I'm not about to dis on anybody who's trying to make things better, even if they are, um, a little janky around the edges at times, like NOI. Grocery store? I wish they would, or that someone would.

>There's got to be a number of unused storefronts that would make great small neighborhood groceries. Throughout this area of Oakland, and hell, all of Oakland for that matter, except in the hills where grocery stores outnumber liquor stores.<

Yes. I'll leave it to you to figure out how best to do that. ;-)

>People are frustrated. I am frustrated. Sooner or later something will have to give. I just hope most of it is positive rather than destructive, and the coming gentrification will provide for this area's long term residents. Not that I have any reason to hope for such things, but I have to anyway.<

Hope is key. You gotta keep going -- and if I may suggest something, it would be not to wait around, do something. It's your neighborhood, you obviously care about the people who live in your neighborhood, you have some ideas -- get together some friends and do something. It's the best medicine there is for frustration. Even better than beer! Heh.

so i like to drink and stuff, i also like to drive a motor vehicle, and that requires gas, and i also like to turn on my tv, and that requires electricity, etc etc. i know that often, these industries are disproportionately anchored in black communities. i know all of these industries carry consequences for those communities.

and i also note that white progressive activists sure like to get together and protest the chevron plant in richmond, and hunters point pge plant, and other businesses that pollute the black neighborhoods. what do they call it? "environmental racism"?

im not sure how this alcohol action is ALL that different, except that instead of scruffy white radicals carrying signs and wetting themselves and crawling over one another to obey police orders, this time some well dressed black people faced down a shotgun and actually had a well-planned protest that sure looked like a protest, and took a real toll on (sent a real "message") to the protest target. so my only real impression was realizing the extent to which the progressive left is full of useless ineffectual sign-holding windbags that dont know how to protest.

Little Arab owned liquor stores are defintely not the problem. The claim that the selling of liquor in the Black community and not the white community is a problem, as if Black people are stupid or something and can't figure out whether alcohol is good or bad for each individual concerned. The situation feels pretty close to racism.
Goody two shoes exist in all communities, and they should have a say but not the only say. The problem is with a SMALL group of the community deciding what is good for an entire community. That is not community empowerment. The situation in Oakland this week seems to be an inter-religious fight, between Muslim storekeepers and Muslim regulators of religious law.
But even if it weren't, it would be wrong. Take my neighborhood. I live in South Berkeley. A store has lost its liquor license, and there are two petititions going around the nabe. One is being circulated by white newbies to make the license is not renewed. The other is being circulated by a black mailman who has no business interest in the store askign that the license be renewed quickly. I signed the one to allow liquor being sold even tho i personally don't drink hard liquor and have never bought alcohol in that store. I do shop there especially to get soda, sparkling water, and snacks. Besides people having the right to do what they want to their body, the store would close down if it didn't sell liquor, and we would have one else place to get food quickly and nothing after Midnight. Economics of the community means that to have a litlte grocery store, that store must sell liquor to stay in business.

>not sure how this alcohol action is ALL that different

That's because you haven't thought it all the way through. What's this really like is a bunch of Scientologists smashing up a cannabis dispensary.

Alcohol is neither gasoline nor electricity. It's a drug. Are we going to let gangs of religous fanatics, roaming the streets armed with clubs, decide which drugs we can take, or are we going to decide for ourselves?

Inquiring minds want to know.

this is like a bunch of scientologists smashing up a pot club?

no, from the point of view of the NOI, and many other, yes, communitiy organizations that exist, liquor stores and drugs are a type of environmental RACISM. your example doesnt capture this. are the liquor bashers right? in some ways, yes. there are good articles about this, for example, in magazines like colorlines, and many others. i wont go into it, people can read these things for themselves.

this bullshit about choice is silly [for those of us here who are radicals and not liberals]. either we can attack the supply side (as in supply and demand) of an equation or not. and dont give the bullshit about "choice", since thats exactly what people say to defend scabs right to cross the picket line, and loggers the right to cut down old growth, and people to drive big ass SUVs, and so forth. freedom of choice is bullshit.

does the "majority" of the community agree? no. of course not. as deanosor points out:

"The problem is with a SMALL group of the community deciding what is good for an entire community. That is not community empowerment."

but i respond: cmon dean. thats never been a problem for anarchists. lets be honest with ourselves here. all of these kinds of actions can be written off as fringe wingnuts. someone tosses a molotov at the chron building? anarchists cheer. somone wrecks some malt liquor, anarchists boo. were picking and choosing here, and it reflects our personal affinity for liquor over crappy newsprint. be honest.

and ill say its fine to have ideological differences and dis the NOI action for that. [i dont like them either]. hate me because you like to drink and they dont want you to. or because they are religious. or a cult. fine. but dont pretend theres something structurally wrong with this action, GIVEN their beliefs. their action, structurally, in so far as the execution, the logic, the style, the whole package, was right on and the useless, spineless bay area radicals around here could learn something from it on the strategic tip.

>the store would close down if it didn't sell liquor, and we would have one else place to get food quickly and nothing after Midnight. Economics of the community means that to have a litlte grocery store, that store must sell liquor to stay in business.<

>Are we going to let gangs of religous fanatics, roaming the streets armed with clubs, decide which drugs we can take, or are we going to decide for ourselves?<

OK, now we're talking. You see, I love Oakland -- and Oakland is a mess. A large part of that mess is caused by neglect from downtown, not to mention whatever or whoever controls the drug trade, decides not to allocate federal funds for the schools, etc.

As such, the only way out of this mess is for people to make the community they want to live in, while making sure that the block isn't sold out from under them once they make it better -- which could easily happen. To whatever degree that people don't create the community they want, they get the community that is forced on them -- which in turn creates a huge opening for groups such as NOI to step in, not to mention developers and (of course) the NIMBY crowd. To put it bluntly: Piedmont ain't that far away.

I know you all know this -- my question to you is what are you doing about it? If you live there, consider yourselves lucky that you haven't been priced out of the Bay Area altogether. While day to day life can be hard enough as it is, I think you all have some degree of responsibility to try to fix things (not that you asked for that job.)

>but i respond: cmon dean. thats never been a problem for anarchists. lets be honest with ourselves here. all of these kinds of actions can be written off as fringe wingnuts. someone tosses a molotov at the chron building? anarchists cheer. somone wrecks some malt liquor, anarchists boo. were picking and choosing here, and it reflects our personal affinity for liquor over crappy newsprint. be honest.<

Thank you, sister or brother. Well put.

It's a cult like the Moonies, the RCP or the Taliban. Do you want cults to dictate your behavior and enforce their will upon us with clubs? If so, you're part of the problem. That we the people, all of us, every one, be free to choose what goes into our bodies and what does not, is far more important than that some people make the wrong choices. It is better to choose wrong than not be able to choose at all.



>fringe wingnuts. someone tosses a molotov at the chron building? anarchists cheer.

That's a serious mistake. It's time we abandoned the strategy of useless, proven failures, stop attacking symbols and go after the real thing. Capitalism does not live in the Chron building, or City Hall, or the White House or the Pentagon or on Wall Street. It lives between humanity's ears. It is there we must attack it, and not with symbols but with real alternatives.



> anarchists cheer . . . anarchists boo.

It is fallacious to lump all anarchists together. It's at odds with the facts. Not all anarchists cheer useless gestures like molotoving the Chron building, and not all anarchists condemn the NOI for their Taliban like behavior.

No matter what happens, some anarchists will cheer while others boo. Anarchist are not, and never have been, of one mind on anything but the basic principles of anarchism. On everything else, we differ widely. There are many things on which we don't all agree. Only those things on which we all agree can truly be called anarchist.

Anarchists are an extremely mixed bunch. Some anarchists are doctrinaire pacifists. Others carry guns. Some are devoutly religious. Others are militant atheists. Some are hunt saboteurs. Others hunt. Some are willing to collaborate with statists under certain conditions. Others are not even willing to collaborate with each other. A few can’t even seem collaborate with themselves. Some of them hate each other. Others are in love. Nothing on earth is going to please all of them at once.

>It is there we must attack it, and not with symbols but with real alternatives.

Well, great -- I trust that you're doing something about the rampant poverty and lack of resources in Oakland, no? While the NOI may go off on a tear against liquor stores no matter what the conditions are, the conditions that create sympathy for the NOI (or for that matter, white "community policing supporter" NIMBYs) are real. As long as you don't at least attempt to provide an alternative, you're as much a part of the problem as NOI is.

>Capitalism does not live in the Chron building, or City Hall, or the White House or the Pentagon or on Wall Street. It lives between humanity's ears. It is there we must attack it, and not with symbols but with real alternatives.

Alternatives...such as? Don't be shy, now.

>>"Do you want cults to dictate your behavior and enforce their will upon us with clubs?"

no, but i want true community organizations to enforce their will with clubs. fancy that. so i keep the criticism of NOI about their cultish nature, and i dont go after the club-wielding tactics, as i would like to reserve those for us when we're ready.

>>"Capitalism does not live in the Chron building, or City Hall, or the White House or the Pentagon or on Wall Street. It lives between humanity's ears"

Capitalism is more than an idea. Confronting it means more than just winning a debate, and we need more than "analysis'. You need praxis. An understanding that behavior and belief are inseparable. That they create and reinforce one another.

Thus, your construction of targets as symbolic and hence useless to attack is naiive. While individual molotov tosses might be strategically questionable, writing off an attack as empty because it is symbolic is pretty, er, presumptuous and ignorant of history. But I have to assume, based on our apparent agreement that capitalism is (ALSO ) "between peoples ears", that at some level you do accept that behavior and symbolism are linked.

Which leads me to reason that perhaps your real/symbolic dichotomy is actually a confusion between activism and organizing. Molotovs and beer smashing is activism. Organizing is different. The two can -- and if things go right, they do -- play off one another. They both need to happen. The left (and anarchists) are falling WAY short on the organizing tip right now, that is for sure..

>Which leads me to reason that perhaps your real/symbolic dichotomy is actually a confusion between activism and organizing. Molotovs and beer smashing is activism. Organizing is different. The two can -- and if things go right, they do -- play off one another. They both need to happen. The left (and anarchists) are falling WAY short on the organizing tip right now, that is for sure..<

Yes, yes. Totally with ya there. All this attention is paid to protests and direct actions -- but what about building? Like you said, both are needed.

In terms of anarchism, though: I don't think the whole "anarchists come in all shapes and sizes" argument put forth by many anarchists these days really works when it comes to organizing. It's great for activism -- thousands of little moles, doing what they do best -- but if you actually want to work together with people in a community to improve their conditions, there needs to be something more focused than what is typically put forth by anarchists -- and as you noted, by the left in general. In short: there needs to be some kind of grass-roots leadership, even if -- preferably if -- that leadership is anarchic and decidedly un-boss like in its formation.

What happened to differentiating between bosses and leaders? It's not as if leadership can't be fluid, shared, rotated and so on. To me, this is anarchism 101, chapter, line and verse, but I honestly get the feeling that many anarchists don't agree with me. I think it's sad, bordering on tragic. It basically means that always be driving a car with two wheels on one side, so to speak.

People who use clubs to enforce their religion on other people are not part of any community a real anarchist can be part of. Their behavior is the precise antithesis of anarchism. They are the enemy.

>People who use clubs to enforce their religion on other people are not part of any community a real anarchist can be part of. Their behavior is the precise antithesis of anarchism. They are the enemy.<

Um, are you even listening to what I'm saying? If you'd take the time to read my posts, you'd see that I'm not condoning either the action or the NOI. Please don't put words in my mouth.

ps: "Real anarchist?" Please. "Real anarchists" don't set around drinking 40s while Oakland falls apart.

finally someone is taking action.apparently most
''americans'' could care less about the torture and death of african descended men.''americans'' have had their chance and theyve failed to act.actions speak louder than words.

Some people including some anarchists might drink forities and work to make Oakland a better place. One's drug consumption id nto teh problem. The problem is what else one does.
The questiopn is not symbolic versus real. The question is right versus worng. A direct action that shuts down an abortion clinic or topples alcohol in a small neighborhood store is wrong. A direct action which shuts down Wall Street or the Pentagon or a big bougerois neewspaper is right. I have other considerations but in general this is what i believe. The molotov against the Chronicle building was one of the better things that happened in San Frnacisco on Down with Bush Day. Nevertheles it was fairly silly, The Chronicle building wouldn't burn (it's some kind of rock). In certain ways it was as symbolic as the rest of the things that happened on that day. It also gave a direction: the people need to act directly agianst oppression and oppressors (small Arab owned liquor stores are not opressors) and not depend on politicians even "radical" ones like Bob Avakian to solve our problems.

>drinking 40s and working to make Oakland a better place

Well, sure -- but you know what I'm talking about, D. Come on.

>A direct action that shuts down an abortion clinic or topples alcohol in a small neighborhood store is wrong. A direct action which shuts down Wall Street or the Pentagon or a big bougerois neewspaper is right.<

What about a direct action that shuts down an alcohol manufacturer that repeatedly targets poor communities?

The Black Muslims are a long-term part of this commmunity, imperfect as they may be. They have achieved far more locally and across this nation for people of color than any (white) anarchist I am aware of. Their mission is far bigger than religion - it's empowerment of historically oppressed peoples. They didn't go into these stores and demand reverence for their faith. It's a quality of life issue. You don't have to be a Muslim (or Baptist) to agree that the current situation is unacceptable. No one fighting to change that is my enemy.


[ps. the new Whole Foods will be on Harrison above the Lake, in the old Cadillac dealership across 27th from the 7-11]

Their [NOI's] mission is far bigger than religion - it's empowerment of historically oppressed peoples.

I guess if you consider its complicity in the death of Malcolm X to be empowering to oppressed peoples, you're right.

>The Black Muslims are a long-term part of this commmunity, imperfect as they may be. They have achieved far more locally and across this nation for people of color than any (white) anarchist I am aware of.<

See, that's just what many (not all) white anarchists in Oakland don't seem to understand -- that people who aren't like them who happen to be black are part of the community. Further, these same white anarchists seem to think that not only are they part of the community (which they are, they live there, and aren't off in some yuppie loft driving around in their SUV), they also think that they have a right to tell people in Oakland how to live, while they proclaim at the top of their lungs that they stand for freedom of expression, liberation of desire, etc, etc. While I don't think going after a small shopowner and breaking out their windows is really the way to handle things, the fact is that drugs and alcohol, when taken to the point of addiction, are a big problem in urban poor communities across this country -- and it's not just a matter of "personal choice," it's a matter of people resorting to whatever they have available to them economically to cope with the difficulties of being poor. Anybody who doesn't see that is either not been around much, or they're blind.

>No one fighting to change that is my enemy. <

Nor mine -- and I'm an anarchist. If some people don't like that, they can say that I'm not a "real anarchist" until they're blue in the face. They're just going to have to deal. There's plenty I can take objection to with the NOI, but as you correctly pointed out, they've done good as well. Now, if they actually ran things, things may be problematic -- but that's just it, they *don't* run things. The city does, the cops do, and wealthy people who are speculating on Oakland do -- but NOI? Please. They may be wrong about some things, but at least they're not hypocrites.

Again, all of you so-called anarchists who keep going on about individual freedom like you were some frigging republican or something: what are you doing to make Oakland a better place? Do you even talk with your neighbors, and when you do, are you actually listening with an open mind, or you just running whatever agenda you and your friends have?

If the goal of anarchism is to create a society free of capitalism, class and the state, you've got a long way to go in that regard. I have *NO* patience for people who say one thing and do another, I don't care who you are.

Conversations like this make me embarrased to identify as an anarchist.

>I guess if you consider its complicity in the death of Malcolm X to be empowering to oppressed peoples, you're right.<

While members of NOI appear to have had a role in Malcolm's assassination, to talk about that without a detailed discussion of COINTELPRO is pretty much missing the point. Do you want to blame the puppet, or do you want to cut the strings?

If you buy the official story of the time, you might say they have "complicity in the death of Malcolm X." But don't forget that at the time the FBI and local cops were busy everywhere assasinating black leaders.

Nevertheless, they were also Malcom X's inspiration and turned his life around. There would have been no Malcom "X" without the Black Muslims.

Frankly, it shows little understanding of the accomplishments of the Black Muslims nationally, and little understanding of their decades-long work here in the East Bay, to reduce judgement of the entire organization to the death of Malcom X.

>Nevertheless, they were also Malcom X's inspiration and turned his life around. There would have been no Malcom "X" without the Black Muslims.<

Exactly right and well put. I mean, read Malcolm's autobiography, for Pete's sake. When I see white anarchists in Oakland accomplishing the same positive things that NOI has in the community, I'll be the first to sing their praises, or at least to say "thank you." But what's going on right now is basically one group blaming another for their faults, while simultaneously ignoring the good things that they do, apparently (at least in part) to cover up the fact that they aren't doing much. Not cool.

>Frankly, it shows little understanding of the accomplishments of the Black Muslims nationally, and little understanding of their decades-long work here in the East Bay, to reduce judgement of the entire organization to the death of Malcom X.<

The more time I spend around white activists in the Bay Area, the more I come to believe that, in general, they really understand next to nothing about people of color (although they sure do think that they do.) In short, they're not really that different than white people overall -- but in their efforts to change things for the better, there are more than a few cases where they make things worse. Double dumb-butt on me for falling for their nonsense, but still...

There's one thign i agree with No Heroes about and that's that white people including myself don't understand the Black community. However i do understand that the Muslim's don't represent the majority of the black community. Most of the Black community in my neighborhood is in favor the liquor store the white gentrifiers are trying to shut down. And yes, alcoholism and alcohol abuse is a major problem in most poor communites.
If people from a poor oppressed community wanted to shut down a manufacturing plant of a major producer of alcohol, people should consider supporting it. That's all i can say about this. It'd be a judgement call. Ruining a small business like the one's that were done by people who looked like NOI members is not. I say looked like because the NOI has denied being part of it, and rivals within the community or some form of Cointelpro coudl be the perps. In fact it almost seems like a setup, with the cameras there to show who did it, and these people in what is obvious the "uniform" of a specific group with no attempt to hide any identification.

I'm not a white anarchist but I take issue with "no heroes" race-baiting and content-less posts.

It would be helpful if "no heroes" would teach us dummies what's so great about NOI ("despite thier flaws," of course). S/he feels comfy dissing people for their alleged ignorance but does nothing in the way of educating.

What are NOI's great achievements in the East Bay, pray tell? Is NOI's membership increasing as their "achievements" pile up? Do they still believe blacks should atone? Does Farrahkan still believe in UFO's? Has he renounced his ardent support for capitalism? Attacked the patriarchy? Taken a shot at homophobia?

I'm waiting for the latest anarchist defense of racial/religious sectarianism.

>There's one thign i agree with No Heroes about and that's that white people including myself don't understand the Black community. However i do understand that the Muslim's don't represent the majority of the black community. Most of the Black community in my neighborhood is in favor the liquor store the white gentrifiers are trying to shut down. And yes, alcoholism and alcohol abuse is a major problem in most poor communites.<

Thanks.

>If people from a poor oppressed community wanted to shut down a manufacturing plant of a major producer of alcohol, people should consider supporting it. That's all i can say about this. It'd be a judgement call. <

Fair enough.

>Ruining a small business like the one's that were done by people who looked like NOI members is not. I say looked like because the NOI has denied being part of it, and rivals within the community or some form of Cointelpro coudl be the perps. In fact it almost seems like a setup, with the cameras there to show who did it, and these people in what is obvious the "uniform" of a specific group with no attempt to hide any identification.<

Yes, that's a possibility as well. Thanks for actually having a conversation about this, it helps.

>I'm not a white anarchist but I take issue with "no heroes" race-baiting and content-less posts.

It would be helpful if "no heroes" would teach us dummies what's so great about NOI ("despite thier flaws," of course). S/he feels comfy dissing people for their alleged ignorance but does nothing in the way of educating.

What are NOI's great achievements in the East Bay, pray tell? Is NOI's membership increasing as their "achievements" pile up? Do they still believe blacks should atone? Does Farrahkan still believe in UFO's? Has he renounced his ardent support for capitalism? Attacked the patriarchy? Taken a shot at homophobia?

I'm waiting for the latest anarchist defense of racial/religious sectarianism.<

Whatever. The pros and cons of NOI are public knowledge, I suggest you educate yourself rather than expecting me to do that work for you. Your response is basically the "My dog ate my homework" of discourse and discussion. Teach yourself, the information is out there.

Besides, as I said before, there's plenty to criticize about NOI -- did you read when I said that repeatedly, or not?

Lastly, this is basicaly an ad hominem attack of what I'm saying with little in the way of specific, let alone constructive, criticism. If you want me to talk with you, please play nice or don't play at all.

well, that would be "no heroes."

apparently "no heroes" thinks his/her assertions need no supporting evidence. anyone who challenges said assertions is engaging in ad hominem attacks.

that's an "interesting" debating style.

1. from bah--"their action, structurally, in so far as the execution, the logic, the style, the whole package, was right on and the useless, spineless bay area radicals around here could learn something from it on the strategic tip."

So action regardless of content is what counts. So petty fascists attacking Muslim business owners may not be okey dokey but gee they were darn effective.
This action was spinless, 12 on 1 in a suprise attack. Gee what balls.

2. from mixed feelings "The Black Muslims are a long-term part of this commmunity, imperfect as they may be. They have achieved far more locally and across this nation for people of color than any (white) anarchist I am aware of. Their mission is far bigger than religion - it's empowerment of historically oppressed peoples."

Well, lets see here their now dead leader Yusef Bey was going around raping and impregnating multiple 13 year old girls. Nobody from this cult ever even apologized for this to those women.
His little cult of thugs goes around strong arming dissenters and race baiting detractors. In the last months there has been 2 murders and one shooting within their ranks.Yes that's community empowerment. Sorry mixed feelings but you're fucking clueless.

> apparently "no heroes" thinks his/her assertions need no supporting evidence.

like I said, educate yourself. If you actually took the time rather than expecting me to do all the work, you'd find out that there's a lot of bad mixed in with the good when it comes to NOI. But since you don't want to do the work, there's no point in talking with you. Goodbye.

no hereos--"See, that's just what many (not all) white anarchists in Oakland don't seem to understand -- that people who aren't like them who happen to be black are part of the community. ............... they also think that they have a right to tell people in Oakland how to live"

oh please don't lecture others about joining your behavior modification plan. There is a word for guilt ridden whites it's called a doormatt-- you sound like one. The white anarchists that you and others seem to especially enjoy whining about may have their faults but as far as I can tall they aren't the ones smashing up liquor stores and telling people how to live. The Black Muslims are.

>Well, lets see here their now dead leader Yusef Bey was going around raping and impregnating multiple 13 year old girls. Nobody from this cult ever even apologized for this to those women.
His little cult of thugs goes around strong arming dissenters and race baiting detractors. In the last months there has been 2 murders and one shooting within their ranks.Yes that's community empowerment. Sorry mixed feelings but you're fucking clueless.<

Is it conceivable that they do both bad and good things, or do you want to just do on the attack on other people since I refused to talk with you if you did so towards me? Some of us may be clueless, but you seem more like a bully than anything.

Besides, NOI is only part of the picture. What about alcoholism among poor people, and why that alcoholism exists? The whole "freedom of choice" argument becomes a lot more difficult when you're talking about what amounts to culturally enforced addiction.

>There is a word for guilt ridden whites it's called a doormatt-- you sound like one.

I told you once, don't go there with me. Goodbye.

No one forces anyone to drink. The drinker chooses to pick up that first drink.

>No one forces anyone to drink. The drinker chooses to pick up that first drink.

That's a related but separate issue. Using the 12 steps to justify systemic pushing of alcohol and drugs in poor communities of color is a rather specious argument.

Since (ahem) *some* of you seem to think that a request to type, point and click is somehow both an affront to your person and proof positive that I have no idea of what I'm talking about, I've included a couple of links that seem to be related to this discussion/
flame war/harangue. Enjoy, and feel free to discuss.

Blog about muslim shop owners in the black community:
http://ihsan-net.blogspot.com/2005/07/racial-tension-in-american-umma.html

Article on Louis Farrakhan's "Going Mainstream":
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/2/story_231_1.html

Now that you've in effect conceded that not supporting your argument is pretty weak, why don't you pony up with something that supports your previous contentions?

Specifically, I'd like to here you support the assertion that NOI serves oppressed communities in the East Bay. Give some evidence, please.

>Specifically, I'd like to here you support the assertion that NOI serves oppressed communities in the East Bay. Give some evidence, please.<

I guess that really depends on what you consider to be "service." I mean, the whole social history of NOI is centered around uplifting black people, with very deep ties into marginalized (poor) black communities. You may not agree with them, but your question really shows that you haven't even looked into the subject deeply enough to have an informed opinion, which is why I cut off dialogue before. Nothing like being insulted by someone who doesn't understand word one to put a damper on the evening, you know?

That all being said, have you read Malcolm X's autobiography? That's about the best evidence I can give, good along with the bad.

>That all being said, have you read Malcolm X's autobiography? That's about the best evidence I can give, good along with the bad.<

I just realized that my response doesn't specifically answer your question about the east bay. I really don't know how to fully answer your question, it's like asking what have Baptists done for Oakland. Suffice it to say, they're a constant (some would say too constant) presence in black communities, including black communities in Oakland. As I said before, service is pretty much part of their mission. They're a religion, they do the kinds of community service that you'd expect from a religion.

Guess what "no heroes"? the 12 Steps have absolutely nothing to do with this. I'm speaking the literal truth. Liquor store owners don't force anyone to drink. And, they don't "push" their "drug." The customer comes to them, of their own free will. Liquor stores don't locate where there's no demand. And, store owners don't create that demand. Drinkers do. The Black community should take a long, hard look at its culture.

Drivel like what's been posted in this thread is why I sometimes have a difficult time taking the Left seriously.

>The Black community should take a long, hard look at its culture. <

Throngs of church-going, tea drinking black grandmothers across the country will take heed once word of your admonitions have gotten around, I'm sure. I'm also sure that C. Dolores Tucker will give up her role as L'il Kim's bodyguard and personal assistant, all because of your words of supreme wisdom. Good going, Dan. You are absolutely, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the savior of the black race. Congratulations.

In other words, what planet do you live on? You act as if personal responsibility, not to mention drug and alcohol abuse, are topics that are never discussed in the African-American community. Your ignorance is showing. For real.

Sometimes the knee-jerk racism of the right amazes me every bit as much as the left amazes you, Dan. So here were are, polarized once again. Nice going.

I live on a planet called California's Central Valley. In a city where murder is routine. A city where a majority of its Afro-American community absolutely will not assist police in getting a handle on the violence. They would rather put up with gangbangers (most of whom are people of color). That's what I meant by the community needing to take a long hard look at itself.

Personally, I dislike the Far Right as much as I do the Far Left. Politically, I'm a moderate who detests the political parties.

>A city where a majority of its Afro-American community absolutely will not assist police in getting a handle on the violence. <

Perhaps that's because the police don't exactly have a stellar reputation when it comes to community relations, if you get my drift.

Trying to catch up on comments here, it becomes apparent that Dan, anon, and observer are racists not worth discussing the issues with.

Despite their bravado of certainty as if they understand the issues and to be party-neutral, it's abundantly obvious that they do not understand the issues related to poverty and historically institutionalized injustices in Oakland, the history of the Black Muslims, even Malcolm X, nor the issues facing African Americans in general today in neighborhoods like this. A lot of uninformed bluster about race baiting, white doormats, rightwing generalities about personal responsibility, insults, and feigned moderation.

All three are unequivocal racists who come here with prejudices not based on real knowledge of the issues involved nor any empathy for the conditions in the neighborhood(s) being discussed. They have had ample opportunity to prove otherwise and clearly they have not.


Thank you though, no heroes, for your thoughtfulness, and your two links. Even Deanosor, who wholly disagrees with the action, is more open-minded and informed on local issues.


Speaking of "real knowledge," this action has created a buzz in the neighborhood. The San Pablo store has more staffing now, older staff, too, who had kind of melted away lately as younger ones came up. Another one, on Telegraph that didn't get hit, has increased staffing as well. I haven't seen less than 5 or 6 staff since Thanksgiving, and tonight they were loudly talking about kicking ass if "they" showed up. Store customers and other local residents have also been discussing it.

If there are to be further attacks remains to be seen, but I would imagine that the attackers cased the joints and targetted understaffed ones, thereby making future attacks less likely considering the now-increased staffing. Maybe they were testing the waters to see what community reaction would be. Maybe it was planned as a one-time demonstration. Regardless, as attacks like this alone will not solve the problem, the repressed neighborhood hostility will remain. As will the demand for these extremely limited neighborhood resources. People are sick and tired of being sick and tired. But with nothing else available, these stores exist and thrive. I only hope it doesn't go to the LA riots dimension where Korean groceries became a clear-cut enemy to be destroyed. But, then again, unfortunately, a wheel often has to squeak quite loudly before it gets greased, as money tends to pour in too late such events as after the LA riots and Katrina in New Orleans. Not that the money is always well spent, either, but the larger population takes notice and things do change, however incrementally. Hell, even Central Valley racists have noticed this little story about just two stores in Oakland.

The people who don't live here need to understand that status quo is simply unacceptable. Either things change proactively out of the goodness of peoples' hearts or the pressure cooker is going to blow off some steam from time to time.

>Thank you though, no heroes, for your thoughtfulness, and your two links. Even Deanosor, who wholly disagrees with the action, is more open-minded and informed on local issues.<

You're most welcome. Some people, ya know?

Deanosor is cool. We don't always see eye to eye, but what you said.

>Speaking of "real knowledge," this action has created a buzz in the neighborhood. The San Pablo store has more staffing now, older staff, too, who had kind of melted away lately as younger ones came up. Another one, on Telegraph that didn't get hit, has increased staffing as well. I haven't seen less than 5 or 6 staff since Thanksgiving, and tonight they were loudly talking about kicking ass if "they" showed up. Store customers and other local residents have also been discussing it.<

Thanks for the update.

>The people who don't live here need to understand that status quo is simply unacceptable. Either things change proactively out of the goodness of peoples' hearts or the pressure cooker is going to blow off some steam from time to time.<

Yes, the status quo is not even close to good enough. Further, *nobody* -- and I mean *nobody* -- should fault people for being human and breaking under the pressure, especially people who haven't been there and/or have no idea of what they're talking about. You said it, though: proactive change from people's *own* hearts, not from outside or from opportunists, racists, etc.

"Mixed feelings" thinks that insinuating deep knowledge of the community gives him/her a pass to say whatever s/he wants, no matter how tenuously relevant to the topic under discussion.

It is indeed interesting, if true, that the neigborhood is "abuzz" about the attack on the liquor store. But "mixed feelings" has little to say on the matter. S/he quickly jumps to asserting that the stores are beefing up security--a different issue--and seems to suggest that this is a good thing and proof of the action's effectiveness.

"Mixed feeling's" feelings aren't that mixed.

It's not worth it.

Just to get some other ideas going here, alcohol wasn't always correlated with poverty and misfortune as the modern day liquor stores in predominantly African-american neighborhoods. Prior to the centuries of Islamic and Judeo-Christian colonialism of Africa, a great many Earth-centered African cultures drank alcohol from fermented grains, fruits, vegetables etc.. and used these drinking festivals to accomplish needed tasks in their village farms and/or gardens. There wasn't an abuse of alcohol and there wasn't any colonial invaders tampering with their way of life either. Looking at history, the problem isn't alcohol per se, the problem is colonialism and loss of autonomy..

Millet beer is a common drink in many regions of Africa for centuries. This drink is ceremonially prepared and also a spiritual bridge to the ancestors. Also healthier than corporate alcohol..

"Unstrained grain beer is a rich source of certain nutrients, especially B-vitamins; in the case of red sorghum the act of germinating the grain frees some of the proteins in it which are otherwise indigestible."

Millet beer in East Africa;

http://www.dur.ac.uk/History/web/millet.htm

Obviously the context of millet beer, brewed from locally grown grain stocks, is nothing near the intense alcohol toxicity of Mad Dog 20/20, Cisco or the other corporate alcohol products found in the modern day ghetto liquor store. Look at the differences between the low levels of alcohol (and high nutritional content) found in fermented grain beverages and the 100 proof distilled alcohol (no nutritional content) that causes liver disease and other severe illness. The lack of nutrients in corporate alcohol can lead people to feeling depressed and negative, because there isn't any input of nutrients!!

The movie "Ceddo" by Senegalese director Ousmane Sembene shows how the Muslim imams entered Africa with the Koran and a sword and used violence to enforce their religious codes on the commoners, called ceddo. Along with alcohol, the "pagan" spirit guides, often in the form of local animal embodiments, were denied to the African people in the village were Ceddo was filmed. This is one example of what happened in many other African villages, were many people today are unaware of their ancestral beliefs from the combined forces of religious monocultura, from Islam and Judeo-Christianity..

info on "Ceddo";

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/sgadjigo/sembene3.html

To sum up;
NO to corporate nutrient devoid liquor stores in African-american neighborhoods,
NO to Islamist (NOI) dogma against alcohol & pagan traditions
YES to renewal of homegrown healthy millet beer and celebration of African pagan traditions

luna moth

Thanks for the article, luna moth. Definitely food for thought.

I live in this community and frequest the questioned liquor stores on a regular basis and am friends with the owners of quality market. I assert to the above poster that there are many locally owned small businesses in our neighborhood where we can go besides quality market and san pablo liquors. Just look across the street and we come across one of the best grocery stores in the bay area -- koreana.

I take the attacks made by whomever did these as an attack on our community. Telegraph Quality Market and San Pablo Liquors both serve as a place to get decently priced food and the occasional alcohalic beverage. Besides this, if any of y'all have ever been to these stores, they provide a place for talking with folks in the community and chatting up politics, police brutality or just chatting up the weather.

So yes, these attacks should be seen as a direct attack to us who live there. These arent places that prey on innocent black folks. They provide alot more than just liquoring up the community. I see this in line with the harrasment the homeless folks recieve from the police on a daily basis in the neighborhood. Whatever the history of black nationalist groups, it's wrong, and should be fought against tooth and nail. Why arent they going after the small hip businesses or the fucking $400,000 lofts for the rich that are driving poor black folks to richmond? The economic gap in our neighborhood is getting crazy.

I've been out of town recently, so I dont know how folks are taking it in the community. Thanks for the update.

I live and work in an inner city neighborhood. I have a feeling that I've spent a lot longer time there than you have. The black Muslims are a negative force in my little opinion and the ones connected to Yusef Bey are a very very negative force. Sorry your brain can't comprehend why some peope might come to that conclusion as well. Above I suggested that west Oakland should develop without little whiners screaming gentrification at every proposal (while offering zero realistic alternatives). The housing proposal at the train station is probably a good one. The Wal greens would have been good but the activist crowd guarnteed it wouldn't happen. Answers may not be easy or fast or without side effects but apologizing for a corrupt violent cult only show that your ideas are mixed up as well as your feelings.

Here's one article on Oaklands Black Muslims: http://www.eastbayexpress.com/issues/2002-11-13/news/feature.html

>Whatever the history of black nationalist groups, it's wrong, and should be fought against tooth and nail. Why arent they going after the small hip businesses or the fucking $400,000 lofts for the rich that are driving poor black folks to richmond?<

Good question -- have you asked them?

Oakland grocers set to fight vandals
Police say they will have more details this week in the attacks on two liquor stores
By William Brand, STAFF WRITER



NATION OF ISLAM minister Tony Muhammad, standing in front of Muhammad Mosque 26 in Oakland on Saturday, says the Nation had no part in the destruction inside two West Oakland liquor stores Wednesday night. (GREG TARCZYNSKI)
OAKLAND — The president of the Yemini American Grocery Association said Saturday that grocers have the right to defend themselves if their stores are invaded like two West Oakland markets were hit Wednesday night.

The association, which represents about 300 store owners in Oakland, Berkeley and Richmond, is not telling grocers to buy guns and shoot, said Mohamad Saleh Mohamad. "But if they have a permit for a gun, they can legally defend themselves."

"The storekeepers are very devastated," Mohamad said. "You would be too if 12 men came into your house or business ... did damage like they did."

"This was a criminal act. It had nothing to do with religion, In this country we have the right to do business. We are selling legal products. The whole community is angry," Mohamad said.

Late Saturday, a group of about 30 Nation of Islam members marched around West Oakland handing out fliers, condemning the violence against the markets.

Among other stores, they passed a new market operated by a Yemini man whose store on Third Street in Richmond was attacked by men in a fashion exactly like the attacks on the two Oakland stores last week.

"They told me not to sell alcohol or they would be back. They didn't come back." The grocer, who asked not to be identified, said the attack ruined his business and he closed the store. His new store does not sell alcohol.

Oakland Deputy Police Chief Howard Jordan, who is heading up the investigation into the attacks on San Pab-

lo Market and Liquor and New York Market, said police expect to make an announcement early this week.

"When we do, it will put this whole thing into perspective," he said. "We're still looking at it as a hate crime."

Oakland passed one of the first hate crime laws in the country, following the 9/11 terrorist attacks. It levies heavy fines and other penalties on anyone convicted of such a crime.

The grocers said police told them they have identified some of the suspects from surveillance camera video at San Pablo Market.

Jordan said investigators are still working to positively identify all of the suspects in the two attacks.

The attackers, wearing suits and bow ties, some carrying clubs, smashed displays and refrigerator units containing alcoholic beverages. They threatened store employees and told them not to sell alcohol to the African-American community.

Police suspect men associated


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with Your Black Muslim Bakery were involved. But a bakery representative Friday said he had no idea who was involved. The bakery, founded by the late Yusef Bey, is a commercial business, not an Islamic organization.

The group is conducting its own investigation, the representative said.

Also Saturday, Minister Tony Muhammad, the western regional representative for Minister Louis Farrakhan of the Nation of Islam, said the Nation was not responsible for the attacks.

"We may disagree with what you are doing, but we will protest peacefully," he said.

At a news conference in front of Oakland Mosque 26B, 5277 Foothill Blvd., Minister Muhammad said the actions will be found to be by a few people. "I guarantee to you this is isolated and only involves a few people. The many shouldn't be blamed for what a few have done."

He urged the police to press their case and make arrests. Deputy Chief Jordan said he met with Nation of Islam officials Saturday. The mosque is not connected to the Black Muslim Bakery.

Minister Muhammad was accompanied by a number of mosque members and several East Bay officials, including Alameda County Supervisor Keith Jordan, Oakland City Councilmember Desley Brooks (East Oakland) and Paul Cobb, publisher of the Oakland Post.

Supervisor Carson said he has worked with Nation of Islam officials for many years. "Their history has always been positive." They work with young men and women in our penal institutions and do many good works.

Councilmember Brooks said she also is familiar with the Nation: "They do not commit acts of violence."

Both Brooks and Cobb said they hope the attacks don't spread fear of black men in suits. "The Nation of Islam people do nothing but good," she said.

Cobb noted that there are some liquor stores next to churches in Oakland: "What if a man from a church goes into the store to buy something? We hope he won't be feared just because he was wearing a suit."

Contact William Brand at bbrand [at] angnewspapers.com.

I just love the name calling, when I don't spout the "right" talk. I'm not from Oakland, but this incident appears to be another example of members of a community harming one another. That appalls me.

So, instead of focusing on the violence, some folks decided it would be cool to blame the store owners. Calling them "pushers." What a joke, folks. Bill Cosby may not be all that wrong. Until folks start taking personal responsibility for their actions instead of blaming others, nothing will change.

If that is racist--so be it.

A question: why does the Black community so revere thugs? Music popular in the community glorifies violence. The NOI started out as a street gang, and it appears from the news reports above, hasn't changed. Let's look at what needs to be changed.

"why does the Black community so revere thugs?"

it's called self-defense

Dan, who admits to racial prejudice: why does the white community so revere thugs called policy officers who beat and kill poor citizens nearly daily?

it's called maintaining the status quo that just happens, not so coincidentally, to favor them by leaps and bounds

huh

It appears that Chris Thompson is writing under the pseudonym 'anon.'

Fair enough. I thought his East Bay Express article on Yusef Bey and the NOI was about the best thing he's done for the East Bay Express. The rest of his work is pseudo-smart, snot-nosed rubbish.

Go Wallgreens!

Or do you oppose it?

There is no third choice. Pick a side.

oh, you mean the rough riders in Oakland?

yes, I have always been a big police booster, especially when they beat, kill, and falsely imprison the poor

or do you mean St. Ides?

yes, I have always been a big supporter of corporations exploiting the poor

or do you mean the CIA smuggling drugs?

yes, I have always been a big supporter of our government, especially when its policies help keep down the poor

" Good question -- have you asked them?"

They wont talk to me. I've tried asking them questions before. I don't get up in people's faces after it's been made apparent that they don't wanna talk. But, you know, I have never seen a NOI person in my neighborhood. They mostly hang out up around 40th+ streets. Why they attacked san pablo liquors and not Black and White or Jayvee with the yellow sign on san pablo, I have no idea. This is, of course, if it was the NOI.

For those of you who keep saying that they are defending the black community around there, I have to differ. Most folks I talk to on the streets are more concerned about the crack dealing going on, etc. and the previous things I mentioned. The liquor stores are definately not on the top of most people's lists in the area.

I am not defending the right wing trolls or Chris Bay Express here. I'm really baffled and angered about this shit. Please, if you can ellucidate me on this issue, I'd like more info as to their motives for such an action. The scenario and your defending them just don't add up. I understand the principles behind environmental racism and the fact that West Oakland has pretty much no chain grocery stores, etc. but this doesnt seem to be fully race or class based. It seems to be more fundamentalist than anything -- which, I have a big problem with.

who said it has to be THE top?

you must have never been to a neighborhood community meeting around here then, as the liquor stores are seen as magnets for all sorts of trouble and are indeed near the top if not THE top of the list when residents are complaining to any official who will listen

people have rallied to have neighborhood parks fenced off to keep out "troublemakers" and they would love to do the same to these stores but being in a free-enterprise-above-all-else society, and with nothing more positive to replace them with, there is little to be done on a communal level other than press to have the handful of most notorious ones shut down as nuisances

So, it's racist to defend the good people in communities of color against the thugs who maim and murder every day. This discussion is getting so far detached from reality, it's pathetic. The Left wonders why so many people in this country have turned their backs on the movement--crap like this is why. It is becoming more and more apparent as I have gotten more involved with the Left, that many of you folks have little sense of reality. Perhaps that's why I will never be convinced to change my moderate, middle-of-the-road approach.

>Please, if you can ellucidate me on this issue, I'd like more info as to their motives for such an action. The scenario and your defending them just don't add up.<

Books do not replace personal experience and involvement, but they tend to be far better tools than getting your information from comment boards alone. The best way for you to get an answer to your question is to study black nationalism overall and the movement for black self-determination. While posts that are put up here may give part of the picture (or, um, in the case of certain non-Oakland residing right wing trolls, not provide much of anything,) the best solution is for your to spend some time figuring it out for yourself. That's what I did, and if you truly want an answer to your question, that's what you should do as well.

Your line of questioning isn't quite on par with "So, tell me what it's like to be black," but you're asking a question that could easily take a book or two (if not several books) to begin to composite. Actions like this are coming out of 50+ years of community involvement, which in turn have their roots in resistance to slavery and jim crow. Do you honestly think that a few posters can type up a few comments and break it all down? Books, m'dear, books. Go to amazon, go the library, use the internet -- the tools are there, it's up to you to use them.

My own curiousity is that these liquor store owners were not Black and appear to be Arab/Muslim. By the sound of all of the discourse, there mustn't be one Black owned liquor store in these neighborhoods. It seems very odd to discount flat out racism as a motivation for the attack.

If these Vigilantes wanted to clean up their neighborhood, why not track down and turn in to the police all of the local drug dealers (of all races) selling illegal substances to the Black community? Last I heard, illegal drugs were not adding to the prosperity of the Black community. I would hope that apologists would not defend the drug dealers as ones that are just trying to put food on the table. These Vigilantes don't seem strong enough to have to turn in some of their own people to the "Man". Additionally, working with the police is probably considered blasphemous since "cooperating with the Man is definately not Kosher."

So well dressed Black people go after Arab/Muslim store owners instead. Seems like a pretty racist move by targeting the weakest, minority group in this community without really accomplishing much to really clean up the community's problems.

>If these Vigilantes wanted to clean up their neighborhood, why not track down and turn in to the police all of the local drug dealers (of all races) selling illegal substances to the Black community?<

As we don't know who these people are, it's not possible to respond to this in any other way than hypothetically.

In terms of targeting Arabs on the basis of race: remains to be seen. My understanding according to the news is that hate crime charges may be being investigated.

" By the sound of all of the discourse, there mustn't be one Black owned liquor store in these neighborhoods."

There are not many.

Drug dealing definitely adds to violence in communities but liquor stores have been a focus of groups working to reduce violence in their communities for years. Perhaps the main motivation of those behind the attacks on the liquor stores was just to get the debate out to a wider audience?

Here are some past related stories:

"Community leaders wanted to reduce crime and related problems linked to liquor stores. They pressured city leaders to revise city regulations governing those businesses.
The new law created an Alcohol Beverage Action Team charged with responding to complaints, performing investigations, conducting minor-decoy operations and bringing repeat violators before hearing officers. If necessary, the ordinance provides for revoking a store operator's business permit. "
http://www.maynardije.org/programs/xmedia/projects/liquor/print/

"A soon-to-be-released book by sociologist Robert Nash Parker, "Alcohol and Homicide: A Deadly Combination of Two American Traditions," cites a 20-year study of 256 U.S. cities demonstrating that alcohol outlet density has a significant effect on that area's homicide rates, and that the nationwide increase in outlet density from 1960 to 1980 played a major role in the skyrocketing violence during that period."
http://www.motherjones.com/news/outfront/1995/03/sinha.html

"The annual incidence rate of police-recorded domestic violence was 12.3 per 1000 population ranging from 0.76 to 58.39 per 1000 population across census tracts. There were a total of 673 licensed liquor stores, yielding a mean liquor store density of 1.3 per 1000 population with a standard deviation of 2.7 licenses per 1000 population. With adjustment for demographic and socioeconomic characteristics at the census tract level, every unit increase in liquor license density is associated with a 9% increase (p<0.001) in domestic violence density."
http://apha.confex.com/apha/130am/techprogram/paper_46524.htm

"What is the relationship between outlet density and violence?
A number of studies have found that in and near neighborhoods where there is a high density of places
that sell alcohol, there is a higher rate of violence. That is, when bars, liquor stores, and other businesses
that sell alcohol are close together, more assaults and other violent crimes occur. "

>by yeah Sunday, Nov. 27, 2005 at 11:31 PM

These ar straw mwn not answers.

Do you support vigilante goon squads roaming the streets, enforcing Sharia law with clubs? Or do you oppose it?

> Do you support vigilante goon squads roaming the streets, enforcing Sharia law with clubs? Or do you oppose it? <

Well, I can tell you what I don't support -- I don't support people who seek polarized answers to communities that have enough pressure on them as it is. As such, I refuse to enage with your question, and am turning my back on it. It's up to you what you do once I've turned my back.

The NOI goon squads are not, and never have been, part of any community which anarchists can be a part of. They are no different than abortion clinic bombers. They are nothing more than yet another gang of thugs, out to impose their religion by force. If you refuse to even criticize them, you are furthering their agenda. That is not acceptable. They are not acceptable. These kind people must be driven off the planet. There is no place for them in a free society of willing equals. Today, it's the Sharia prohibition against alcohol their are trying to enforce with their clubs. If they get away with it, they will escalate. What's next, the physical enforcement of Sharia dress codes? Today it's beer bottles. Tomorrow it will be women's heads. Is that what you want?

As for community, I fear you define it in racist terms, just as does the NOI. A community is not a a race of people, or geographic region or an economic class. A community is a social organism that functions holistically in ways that support its members. The physical enforcement of religious doctrine serves only the community of those who believe in that doctrine. What about the rest of us? Are we to permit the growth of a movement that sends goons into the streets to enforce their religion on others? We have seen in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, etc. what happens when Islamist fanatics have power. Is that what we want? And Muslims aren't the only ones. It wasn't that long ago that people who called themselves "Christians" hung and burnt people who they called "heretics." Even to this day they bomb abortion clinics and murder abortion providers. That's the kind of movements you are fostering by refusing to condemn violence by religious fanatics.

The issue here is whether we are to have a secular society in which individuals my follow their own conscience, or are we to have a society in which people are allowed to impose their religious values on the unwilling by force. We who want a secular society are a community of interest. Either you're part of it or you're not. Pick a side.

>The issue here is whether we are to have a secular society in which individuals my follow their own conscience, or are we to have a society in which people are allowed to impose their religious values on the unwilling by force. We who want a secular society are a community of interest. Either you're part of it or you're not. Pick a side.<

Thanks for actually taking the time to say what your opinions are, rather than sniping at me and others who don't *FULLY* share your view. Now we can talk.

As I have said repeatedly, there's plenty to criticize about the NOI, I just don't think that everything they do is bad. Further, the NOI is not denying involvement, they're condemning the actions. Are you saying that a group such as NOI can never, ever clean up for their act, or for that matter, be a mixed bag?

In terms of having a pluralistic society: well, definitely -- but what you're asserting is basically a zero tolerance attitude towards certain groups. That's not pluralism, that's totalitarianism. This is *exactly* why I don't want to "pick a side." That's not the way democracy works, and its definitely not the way anarchism works.

In terms of race: if you read back through my posts, you'll see that I explictly said that white people (in particular, white anarchists) are part of the communities they live in. What I have an issue with is people not taking the time to understand the communities they live in, the diversity of those communities, and how things at a street level are almost always more complex than anybody's theories -- including yours, and including mine -- and then turning around and going all sanctamonious the moment they don't like the way things turn. It's beyond arrogant, it's just plain rude. Is that the kind of society you want? It's not the kind of society I want, you can call it whatever you want.

>>are not, and never have been, part of any community which anarchists can be a part of

So that's why anarchists have done next to nothing for the people of this community. Just too good to associate with long-time residents and organizations. Hell, even the Catholics with all of their faults have done more and are doing more for the poor here than your holier-than-thou anarchist pronouncements ever will.

>>These kind people must be driven off the planet. There is no place for them in a free society of willing equals.

Two things: 1) Driven off the planet? How racist is that?!? 2) A free society of willing equals? What dream world are you living in, pal?

>>A community is not a a race of people, or geographic region or an economic class. A community is a social organism that functions holistically in ways that support its members.

Again with the dream world. Come live here for a decade or more and tell me the issues in this community have nothing to do with race, geography, or economic class. Tell someone who has no access to the resources much of the rest of this society regularly enjoys or who is getting their ass beat down by the police about your "free society of willing equals." Bring your holism on down if you think it has something real to offer the people here.

>>The physical enforcement of religious doctrine serves only the community of those who believe in that doctrine. What about the rest of us?

Three things: 1) They were not enforcing religious doctrine, per se. The Black Muslims are barely Muslim, afterall, as you must be aware. Most Muslims do not consider them to be truely Islamic. Their much larger message is one of black empowerment, even if you don't join their club, and they have staying power, having predated and outlived other such groups like the Black Panthers. They have been in this area for almost half a century are not going anywhere despite your self-righteous "drive them into the sea" proclamations. 2) Actions taken by religiously-oriented groups can indeed benefit the larger community. I personally would prefer that they opened neighborhood bakeries and groceries in this area, but even that would seem unacceptable to you as they need to be "driven off the planet" as you say. 3) I fully expect you to take an equally pious attitude toward any future actions by anarchists whereby they vandalize and smash something that they ideologically disagree with or feel is harming the general community. Afterall, that's what this was, vandalism, and contrary to the way press reports read, these stores were not totally trashed.

>>The issue here is whether we are to have a secular society in which individuals my follow their own conscience, or are we to have a society in which people are allowed to impose their religious values on the unwilling by force.

Well, we have a semi-secular society, perhaps, but we certainly don't have one where individuals are free to "follow their own conscience." If that were so, then there would be more grocery stores and less liquor stores, more jobs and less crime. People of all religious and non-religous faiths around here agree that that current situation is unacceptable, far too limiting in the options available to residents. City official see white gentrification as the only solution rather than development that seeks to truely take care of long-time residents instead of running them off and emulating Emeryville.

>>We who want a secular society are a community of interest. Either you're part of it or you're not. Pick a side.

A community of interest? That's an abstraction. The reality here is a community that is very much defined by racial, geographic and economic forces beyond the largely-resourceless community's current control. Would be nice if we could just pick another side. In the meantime, the Black Muslims, the Catholics, and other non-anarchist groups are offering relief to many in this area. There are trade-offs and mixed blessings.

In a perfect world, sure, you might have a point or two. But this is not a perfect world, and you are mistaken if you think the Black Muslims are the only ones who have a problem with the liquor stores. The Black Panthers did too. So do the Baptists around here. So do the non-religiously affiliated. There have been numerous legally-sanctioned efforts to cut down on the numbers of liquor stores to little or no avail. It's just that the Black Muslims, or some group impersonating them, took an action against two of these stores that symbolize what so many around here are frustrated about.

Attacking these two stores won't solve the problems. It merely highlights the frustration so many feel. If you have a better solution than what they have accomplished over the years that can help people right here right now, bring it on. All I hear is platitudes and an all-too-common willingness to pile onto the Black Muslims by both white anarchists and right-wingers.

" you must have never been to a neighborhood community meeting"

You're right, I work.

But, I can also tell you that these community meetings are not representative of the community either. Rather, another minority within a larger community. Most of what I gather is from talking (creating friendships and relationships) with people -- which I do quite a lot of.

On a side note --> I witnessed them fencing off the mini-parks and was pissed. I talked to neighbors to see what could be done about it and most were like well there's some of the small business owners and community members that dont like them because they bring in drug dealers. You know what happened? They moved across the street.

My point is that these community meetings are not a representative picture of the whole community -- just as my experiences in the community are not either.

I think it's pretty funny that people keep refering to the "white anarchists" that live in this neighborhood. What, y'all mean the three of us that all know who each other is? If you keep refering to active "white anarchists" in the neighborhood not giving solid proposals for a change in the community, know that you take up 1/3rd of that minority and you are the most capable out of all of us.

I think it's pretty funny that people keep refering to the "white anarchists" that live in this neighborhood. What, y'all mean the three of us that all know who each other is? If you keep refering to active "white anarchists" in the neighborhood not giving solid proposals for a change in the community, know that you take up 1/3rd of that minority and you are the most capable out of all of us.

(11-28) 09:55 PST Oakland, Calif. (AP) --

A liquor store was heavily damaged by an apparent arson fire Monday, just days after it was trashed by well-dressed vandals who told the owners to stop selling to black people, authorities said.

Police had no suspects in the fire, which was reported about 1 a.m. They refused to say whether they believed the blaze at New York Market was connected to vandalism last week at the store and the nearby San Pablo Market and Liquor in West Oakland.

more - http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/11/28/national/a095520S41.DTL&feed=rss.news

>I think it's pretty funny that people keep refering to the "white anarchists" that live in this neighborhood. What, y'all mean the three of us that all know who each other is? If you keep refering to active "white anarchists" in the neighborhood not giving solid proposals for a change in the community, know that you take up 1/3rd of that minority and you are the most capable out of all of us.<

Well...no. First off, there's more than three, although I understand what you're saying, it's not as if there are anarchists falling from the trees. Second off, not everybody who is an anarchist in Oakland is white.

To be fair, not everybody I've encountered who happens to be white, anarchist and living in Oakland is clueless when it comes to what's happening outside of their subcultural bubble. I do think there are some people who don't really understand much about the communities they live in, and if anything, their friends (especially their white friends) who aren't so backward are the ones who should be educating them.

That being said, I'm not trying to be divisive here, honest.

>arson

Yaah. Not good. Is there any information about how the family who owns the store is doing?

yeah, by no means was I trying to state that the whole of the anarchist community in oakland is white (or anything even close to that). It was a response to some previous comments to point out how those types of arguments get us nowhere. (I can pretty much guess who each of us are in this discussion, as you probably know who I am or are aquainted with me)

I agree that people --in general-- should do more to know their neighborhoods --who are your neighbors, what do they do, what do they think, etc. etc. and understand it before talking about it. Any politically active person should be aware of this. That aside, I think we are on the same tip here.

------------------------

Now that there's a group of folks from Oaktown on here, whats up with Cabel's Reef getting shut down? Now thats some fucked up shit. And from what I understand it's a community group everyone's trying to talk up thats trying to get it shut down.

>I agree that people --in general-- should do more to know their neighborhoods --who are your neighbors, what do they do, what do they think, etc. etc. and understand it before talking about it. Any politically active person should be aware of this. That aside, I think we are on the same tip here.<

Cool, fair enough.

OAKLAND - A West Oakland liquor store targeted last week by vandals went up in flames early Monday in a deliberately set fire, authorities said.
Authorities said that they would be looking for a link between the vandalism at New York Market and San Pablo Market last Wednesday night and Monday's fire, but have not ruled out other possible motives.

Monday's single-alarm fire was reported at 1:19 a.m. at New York Market at 3446 Market St. Arson investigators with the Oakland Police department and Fire Department are investigating the blaze as suspected arson.

Authorities said evidence found so far suggests the fire was started inside the store with an accelerant and there was no sign of a forced entry.

Piles of destroyed merchandise laid openly on the sidewalk in front of the neighborhood store. The store's marquee and other signs had been melted by the heat.

Store owners could not be immediately reached for comment.

Jodi Hamilton attends church across the street from the market. When she left

Children, on their way to school Monday stop to look at damage a fire Monday morning at New York Market on Market Street in Oakland. The business also was recently a target of vandalism last week. (Nick Lammers - STAFF)

the church the night before she didn't see anything out of the ordinary, she said.

``The store has had many different owners and has been around for years,'' she said. ``This is so sad and I hate to see something like this happen.''

Last Wednesday, about a dozen men wearing dark suits and bow ties invaded and trashed New York Market and the other store, demanding the businesses stop selling liquor to African Americans.

Police are trying to positively identify the suspects from the vandalism incidents, but believe




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that Muslims associated with Your Black Muslim Bakery in Oakland were involved. So far, no arrests have been made.
Abdul Saleh, the owner of San Pablo Market said Monday he is still concerned about last week's vandalism. News about the fire makes him absolutely nervous, he said.

``I'm worried,'' Saleh said. ``The police should do something about it and find out who did it.''

The Yemini American Grocery Association share his sentiments. The association represents about 300 store owners in Oakland, Berkeley and Richmond and is encouraging authorities to step up their investigation.

Mohamad Saleh Mohamad, president of the association said that the owners of New York Market just purchased the business and were making plans to renovate. He was unaware if the business was having financial problems.

``It's frustrating that it's taking so long to get the folks caught on videotape apprehended,'' said Mohamad Saleh Mohamad. ``Merchants feel unstable and are unsure how to react or what kind of support they can get.''

Staff writer Cecily Burt contributed to this report

can't believe you would post that... sharia law??? are you serious!!! lolol

Go talk to 99% of NOI members about Sharia law and they will have no idea wth you're talking about. The NOI and "Islam" are about the same as the Washington redskins and the Dallas Cowboys... They both have the word "Islam" in the names and they say peace in arabic but really thats about it.

*sighs* This entire rant disappoints me because it shows just how much you DON'T know about the NOI or "Islam" and all its different forms. I don't think you have ever attened a NOI sunday mass or knew someone in the NOI or else you would'nt talk this way.

The NOI doesn't follow sharia law at ALL> 99% won't even know WTH Sharia is. The don't know the obligated 5 pillars of faith (fasting, charity, Hajj, belief in the last day.... all the Prophets, the Angels, and reading Quran etc.) Most don't read Quran at all. It sits in high places in there houses and collects dust. They don't know what Adab (proper manners) figh, Tasweed, Taleel means at all. If you go to mass its on Sun at the regular time most southern Baptist has service. If anyone as took the time to attend (yes white peple can go to their service and you won't be bust upside the head LOL) Its all day long. The lecture will be 40-50% from the Bible, 30% words from Elijah Muhammed or Farakhan and the rest a free style of what ever is on the mind of the dude at the time giving the service. "Regular" Muslims sabbath in on Friday and service is only 30-45 mins long. They don't pray like most Muslim pray, follow the same eating rules, funerals, marraige.. etc.. everything is just so different. The ask for money after service, this is NEVER done at a othrodox masjid since its set up much the way Christains have set up automatically a certain percentage of your net income should be gving to charity of your choice. So you don't see a passing of the plate taking place at Othrodox Masjids.

Now if you want to talk about the pro's and cons's of NOI in America then you have to really break it down by area. Because the NOI head quarters in Chicago doesn't have a tight reign on all the other chapters as one might think. Each chapter is responsible for paying dues every week to the head quraters and if they meet that demand than they pretty much are run however they wish as long as they stick to the man policy of NOI. #1 being that NOI doesn't get involved in violent action of any sort.

Thats the official policy of the NOI like it or not, you don''t have droves on NOI getting arrested for violence so you can't say NOI has a history or running around terrorizing its community because thats a joke. There main problem is that they don't have enough upper educated members eho graduated with Buisness majors, or Finance Degrees in power. There is a old gaur and anew gaurd. The new Guard is much more educated the old gaurd just dreams of the past "hay days" and they wish to never give up power and things are coming to a dramatic claimax. The NOI is not transparent which is there biggest problem.

However, they do have a very possitives but I can only speak from what I have seen in washington DC. The NOI security force was highered by the DC government when i was around 14 to deal with some neighborhoods that where so bad that they had the DC national gaurd set up patrols in these areas at night. This about the Movie New Jack City's drug appartment building. These areas where straight up no mans land.

The NOI without any guns in a matter of 3 month knocked out violent crime by 83%!!! No one was killed and drugs dealers where rounded up and arrested by the boat load. In the begining people complained about how strick they were, that they wouldn't let people into the apt building unless they lived there and that they were bossing people around by giving them 25 sec to stop lottering or they would be removed off the property. They put up fences, gaurds at the front gates of apt building, planted flowers, and grass. People started talking about how great things were and the Mayor loved it. He loved to so much he gave them several more contract to other neighborhoods in the city that looked like Beriut.

When gurls where raped, cars where stolen or drug pushers where on your block. You didn't call the cops you called the NOI and everyone called them, it just wasn't black muslims calling them for help they literally helped out anyone in the neighborhood that they happen to police. They did this without using any GUNS.

This all ended ofcourse when someone voiced there concern on the Fed board. They were upset that DC govenment was giving out contracts to a reconized hate group. So they pressured DC to stop the contracts.

I am sad to say that the Orthodox Muslim..or Christains have yet to be as effective in the DC area. I hold myself in this group as well. Most religious groups around here just won't work for the betterment of all humanity. People only seem to move after 1st debating if its good for there indivisual group. Its it good for the Muslim, the Christain or the Jew.

*sighs*

>what you're asserting is basically a zero tolerance attitude towards certain groups.


Not groups, behavior


> Driven off the planet? How racist is that?!?

Not at all. We're not talking about about race. We're talking about about religion. People of all races are guilty of using violence to enforce their religious beliefs on others.



>They were not enforcing religious doctrine, per se.

Oh yes they are. Their prohibition of alcohol is religious. It comes straight out of the Koran. It is an integral part of NOI doctrine.


>The Black Muslims are barely Muslim, after all, as you must be aware. Most Muslims do not consider them to be truly Islamic.

That's irrelevant. Many Christians don't consider Mormons to be truly Christian, either. Does that mean that it would be OK for Mormons to roam the streets with clubs enforcing their own religion's ban on alcohol?



>Actions taken by religiously-oriented groups can indeed benefit the larger community.

Indeed, but this isn't one of them. As you may have read, white Christian fanatics once tried to stamp out alcohol. They even amended the constitution. Where was the benefit in that?


>Their much larger message is one of black empowerment,

Their message is not of Black empowerment. It is of Black Muslim empowerment through capitalism, i.e., the submission and exploitation of everyone else.

They are also racist to the core. What is wrong with you people that you would defend overtly racists, pro-capitalist, religious fanatics? Have you been so blinded by your own racism that you fail to think this al the way through? These people are no different than the Klan. They're evil. Their ideology is evil. Their methods are evil. Why are you supporting evil?


>they have staying power,

So does the Klan. So what? They're racists. That makes them the enemy.


>I fully expect you to take an equally pious attitude toward any future actions by anarchists whereby they vandalize and smash something that they ideologically disagree with or feel is harming the general community

This is bunk logic. It begs the question and employs an invalid analogy. My attitude is not pious. It political. I'm opposed to allowing armed bands of racist, pro-capitalist, religious fanatics to roam our streets enforcing their dogma upon the unwilling by force. Also, I have made it repeatedly clear that anarchist vandalism is futile, useless and counter productive. Sabotage is a different matter. If you want to go monkey wrench a defense plant so as to physically disrupt the war machine, I wont object. If you're also smart enough to get away with it, I'll even praise you on public. But breaking windows at Mickey D's or upending a trash can in front of the Gap accomplishes nothing, not one thing, and makes the rest of us look bad by association.

Also, there is no clear consensus that selling liquor to Black people is, per se, harmful to any community except for that of religious fanatics like the NOI. People who believe that it is, are racist by definition. If the Klan tried to stop the selling of liquor to Black people by the very same methods, would you support that?


>Well, we have a semi-secular society, perhaps, but we certainly don't have one where individuals are free to "follow their own conscience." If that were so, then there would be more grocery stores and less liquor stores, more jobs and less crime.

This is more bunk logic. It's an unsubstantiated allegation, i.e., rank speculation. You're not thinking this issue all the way through. If you did, you wouldn't have to resort all these different kinds of bunk logic to make your point. If you had thought this all the way through, you're point would be valid. A valid point does not need to supported by bunk logic. A valid point can be supported by real logic, as well as by the empirical data.


>the Black Muslims . . . are offering relief to many in this area.

No they are not. They are offering membership in a corrupt, racist, mind control cult. That's not relief. That's slavery in everything but its name.

These people resemble nothing so much as they do the People's Temple, before Guyana, and minus the variety of complexions. Supporting cults is not progressive politics. Supporting an overtly racist, pro-capitalist cult is particularly egregious.

Yeah, they have done some good and useful things on occasion. So what? So did the Nazis. So do the Klan. So what? A racist is a racist is a racist. They're all evil. Propaganda in their support does not belong on Indymedia. Either Indymedia is an anti-racist organization or everything else that it does, says and says it does, is meaningless. Throw the racists out.

>you are mistaken if you think the Black Muslims are the only ones who have a problem with the liquor stores

So what? Most people, particularly the customers, do not have a problem with the liquor stores. What about their rights? Who the hell is the NOI to be able to dictate by force what Black people may and may not ingest? And who the hell are you to defend them? Would you defend a white organization that used violence to stop Black people from drinking? Would you defend a white organization that used violence to stop white people from drinking?

What makes Black people any different? Don't Black people have as much right to decide what goes into their bodies as white people do? Don't they have the same right to not live in fear of armed gangs of fanatics using clubs to enforce their religious doctrine on the unwilling? Don't they have the same right to be free of the shackles of a Prohibition that white people cast off sixty two years ago? Who the hell are you to say what's best for them? How dare you? It's no different than saying that if Mormons trashed liquor stores in white neighborhoods it was what was best for the neighborhood.

What's wrong with poor neighborhoods is not that people there drink, but that they are poor, and that poverty exists at all. Poverty is an artificial construct of the capitalist system. Get rid of capitalism, poverty will come to an end. In the meantime, the capitalists laugh up their sleeves to see people like you so easily distracted by someone else getting high. People get high. Get used to it. People have been getting high since before we were even people in the modern sense. It ain't never going to stop. To war upon drugs (and don't kid yourself, alcohol is a drug, nothing more, nothing less) is really a war upon people, usually on people of Color, especially Black people. That's exactly what happened here. The only difference was the uniforms of the perps. This time it wasn't blue. So what?

This deplorable action was an attack on the rights of Black people. If it was done by white people, the left would be up in arms. But because it was done by other Black people you seem to think that makes it different somehow.

That's racism by definition. Either you believe that people of all races are equal or you don't. You can't make an exception for Black people without being racist. Black people have as much right to drink, or not to drink, as anybody else does. To drink or not to drink is the business of the individual. If it's not your body, it's none of your business what goes into it. Butt out.


>A free society of willing equals? What dream world are you living in, pal?

It's the only safe, sane consensual future possible. The alternative is poverty, starvation, exploitation and war. Is that what you want? Well, is it?

I'm not even sure why anarchy was even a topic of discussion here. My previous comments regarding anarchists were not directed towards local anarchists, per se, other than as a general movement, as much as they were to to hold up a big fat mirror to the self-identified anarchist who so loudly claims from afar that he wants the Black Muslims thrown off of the planet. It was intended as sort of "What have you don't for us lately?" The word white was thrown in to call out the race of that person, as well as to the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" Republicans who show up here and speak of personal responsibility as if it exists in a vacuum and there are not 1000 countervailing pressures pushing people in the opposite direction. It really just gets my goat when I here white people slag off on the Black Muslims, especially those who barely understand them beyond a few negative press reports (like the ones that use the word "alleged" a dozen times in smearing them, barely mentioning accomplishments). I also used the word white to deliberately distinguish from anarchists of color who seem to be more sensitive to working with and understanding community groups of color unlike themselves. If poverty, racism, and economic exploitation are the biggest issues, not sectarian spreading of one's own doctrine, people from different persuasions should be able to work together . No one else here was wearing their anarchism on their shirtsleeve and as such my comments were only tangentially intended to reflect the movement in general.


That said, damn, arson now? I am definitely not so mixed about that. We'll have to see what the cops come up with (no forced entry sounds odd), but as I said in one of my first posts here, I hoped that a positive resolution could come of things that was not destructive, and I later added that I hoped it would not come to an LA riots dimension where Korean-owned businesses were targetted for total destruction. There is a giant difference in my mind between breaking some beer/liquor bottles and burning out businesses. It doesn't sound like the Black Muslims to me, but we'll see.

"People are frustrated. I am frustrated. Sooner or later something will have to give. I just hope most of it is positive rather than destructive"


Thanks for your comments on the Black Muslims and the scene in DC, Sherri'.

Greetings,

There have been some comments related to civil rights on this forum. With that thread, I would like to mention an upcoming event that I believe to be very relavent to this discussion as well:

Martin and Malcolm
Implications of their Legacies for the Future With
Dr. Cornel West and Imam Zaid Shakir
http://www.cognizance.us/
cognizancenow [at] gmail.com

Friday, December 2, 2005
Doors Open: 6:30 PM; Program: 8:00 PM
Oakland, CA

Event Cost:
$21.50 General Admission (Available Online and at Select Bay Area Locations)
$16.50 Student (Available Online Only, Must Present Valid ID at Pickup)
Ticket Prices Subject to Increase
Optional Parking: $7/Car

Due to timing and logistical constraints, questions for the two speakers will taken from those submitted online in the forums section of the website.

We are also looking for Sponsors and Donors to help defray the costs and also to help keep the ticket costs affordable for those that wish to attend this historic event. Please contact us if you are able to contribute.

"no clear consensus that selling liquor"

Scroll up a bit and you'll see some empirical evidence, that you speak of but fail to provide yourself, that it is detrimental. Some kind person provided several links above to add context to this discussion. You must have missed them.

"Most people, particularly the customers, do not have a problem with the liquor stores."

You've taken a poll, perhaps? You seem to be largely unfamiliar with this neighborhood. I've acknowledged myself that residents feelings are mixed - many despise the stores yet they are also largely the only resources around.

"Who the hell are you to say what's best for them?"

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said anything close to "best". That's a value judgement I am not willing to make. I am quite careful to not speak in such black and white absolutist terms as you are.

I refuse to be pigeon-holed or cornered into your either/or straw man arguements. Are you for the Taliban running America or are you against it? Are you for liquor stores or for prohibition? Are you for breathing or are you for asphixiation? Get real.

You on the other hand are clearly comparing the Black Muslims with the KKK and Nazis, as if they are one and the same. If you don't see the significant difference, it it you who have the racial issues. Extreme racial insensitivity, if not worse.

And sorry, I don't live in your Ward Connerly, color-blind idealistic world. I live in the real world. Only those who comfortably live on the favored side of the equation, racially and/or economically, can claim race plays no part in the lives of most of the people who live here. Only those with few ties to people of color can claim that racial acknowledgement is not a part of the solution for historically institutionalized injustices. And that is exactly what you will never get about groups like the Black Muslims and the Black Panthers. And that is what upsets me so much about white people who so freely attack them. It doesn't concern you in the least that you align with right-wingers on this who love to scream about reverse discrimination.

So, perhaps it is time for you to offer your empirical evidence and to stop using straw man arguements ("The alternative is poverty, starvation, exploitation and war. Is that what you want? Well, is it?"). While you theorize about possible future realities, the end of capitalism/whathaveyou, and while you offer nothing of substance, people are living in the real here today and many different non-anarchist groups are helping here today. Black Muslims, Catholics, Baptists and NGO types. Obviously, it's still not enough. But ivory towers of colorblind anarchist theory offer even less right now.

I do not expect you to "get" that millions of people in this country, tens of thousands in Oakland, experience historical, cultural, and personal racism reflected in grinding poverty every day and that your colorblind solutions ring quite hollow to the people who live in such conditions today. Your perspective is obviously entrenched and I definitely will not hold my breath on that one. Your more concerned about fairness to yourself than the welfare of people suffering today.

>What is wrong with you people?

Well, maybe we're not as ready to judge as *ahem* some people are.

Moving on though...I agree with mixed feelings, arson's entirely different than breaking windows. I don't think the window breaking was a good call either, but this is over the top.

Maybe it was people acting on their own, maybe it was people faking (I doubt it, but it's possible,) maybe who knows. We're all guessing at this point.

>Do you want a classless, stateless society or don't you...PUNK?

<g>

As I said before, this kind of "dialogue" makes me embarassed to identify as an anarchist. Thankfully, not everybody who is an anarchist believes in bullying people into their point of view.

If the person who you're talking with is who I think they are, this is just what they do -- they'll keep arguing even if this thread goes on for another 100 or so posts. Feel free to keep talking with them if you want, but I just thought you may want to know.

>Do you want a classless, stateless society or don't you...PUNK?

<g>

As I said before, this kind of "dialogue" makes me embarassed to identify as an anarchist. Thankfully, not everybody who is an anarchist believes in bullying people into their point of view.

If the person who you're talking with is who I think they are, this is just what they do -- they'll keep arguing even if this thread goes on for another 100 or so posts. Feel free to keep talking with them if you want, but I just thought you'd want to know.

Why such a high price on this interesting forum? I guess, you don't want poor people to attend.
By the way, in talking about the Klan and the NOI, a couple of years ago the NOI's Fruit of Islam (their security force, genrally the ones we see who are dressed like teh people who broke up the liquor stores-altho we still don't know who broke up the liquor stores, other than they were black and dressed like the Fruit of Islam) protected a holocaust denier named David Irving, when a group of anti-racists tried to stop his nazi-justifying meetings.It was unclear what they were doing there other than that soem of the people protesting Irving were Zionists. (strange bedfellows). This has always given me a bad taste in my mouth for the NOI even when i see them doign some good things.
And remember we don't know who did the smashing or the arson, but if people want to set up community defense or community patrols to protect Arab owned liquor stores, I'm willing to help.

>high price for event

the announcement says that they're looking for sponsors to help lower the ticket prices for those who can't afford it.

>if people want to set up community defense or community patrols to protect Arab owned liquor stores, I'm willing to help.

well...just a suggestion: you may want to ask the shop owners what they want before you set up community patrols. not everybody necessarily wants to be protected by people who aren't part of their community.

"well...just a suggestion: you may want to ask the shop owners what they want before you set up community patrols. not everybody necessarily wants to be protected by people who aren't part of their community."
It's why i didn't try to orgnaize it myself, or say let's do it. I thought it would have to be initiated by a person in the community. Of course, the question becomes "what community?" the community of arab storekeepers, the neighborhood around the store, the Black community, the community of people who care? They all, and with several other permutations as well, could be considered community.

>t's why i didn't try to orgnaize it myself, or say let's do it. I thought it would have to be initiated by a person in the community. Of course, the question becomes "what community?" the community of arab storekeepers, the neighborhood around the store, the Black community, the community of people who care? They all, and with several other permutations as well, could be considered community.<

Cool, thanks -- and yes, definitely, community is "community," you know? It's all the people you're talking about. I wish I could point you in a direction -- but I'm sure if you ask around, you'll find your way there.

A lot of hot air, but no substance.

Answer one question, so we know where you're coming from.

Do you want to see people using violence to force their religious beliefs upon others? Yes or no?

> Do you want to see people using violence to force their religious beliefs upon others? Yes or no? <

The reason you're not getting yes or no answers is that this is not a yes or no situation for many of us (although the arson definitely changes things.)

If you can't deal with complexity, I suggest you look into why your cognitive (or emotional) abilities didn't make it past adolescence.

"Do you want to see people using violence to force their religious beliefs upon others? Yes or no?"

When you phrase the issue like this, of course the answer is no. At least its supposed to be. But its not exactly an honest appraisal of the behavior, now, is it?

And the answers to these questions all depend on who gets to characterize the action: while the media (and you) says the "vandals" were forcing their beliefs on others, the "vandals" will make the case that they were defending the interests of the community.

The same kind of bullshit construction is used by people to legitimize the US position in Iraq right now, and the same kind of construction is used to attack anarchists who take action against the state, etc, etc, ad nauseum. Basically, heres a better question for you:

Do you oppose ALL political violence?

I oppose political violence when it targets a form of commerce or a product that I enjoy, and hence associate with "freedom".

Yeah - the latest detail about the owner being kidnapped makes me intuitively suspect the Bey family group, because the regular NOI make so much more sense, as they are known to do that. C. Thompson was once talking about details he heard but couldn't verify, and the Bey group has kidnapped and tortured people who get in the way- even with something like being the seller of a property they want. A lot of their members were ex-prisoners who the rest of society abandoned with expectation they would end up in prison again, so there is a negative psycholigical effect reinforcing between the church and them.

Anyway, aside from this specific issue where it is ridiculous for them to try to do this, and they didn't poll the community at all for if it wants that market there... I see a bit of contradiction between the 'do we want religious law' individualist perspective holding that everyone makes their own choice regarding drugs, versus the predominant anarchist view about crime, which is that it is more than 50% socially constructed and expectation that there would be hardly any crime once economic incentives and brutality of government and corporations is reformed. For instance, I remember a local anarchist strongly arguing that prisons should be abolished to my friend whose mother was killed by a serial killer, and that made me tip around and say that goes too far, and that there are many people who become bad all by themselves. Also, when we look at west asia, we say "if you treat a group of people so poorly in Iraq etc., we'd have to expect that many would psychologically crack and finally join the violent Zarqawi group".

If it was individualist, there would be no ethnic/class differences for drug abuse - but clearly there are - and the reverse implication would be that society does owe some intervention for people who end up with socially constructed problems- although clearly Oaklanders have not chosen to reform liquor stores. For instance, among europeans, italians, jewish, greeks are known to have very few alcoholics, while irish and white russians are well known for it - possibly having something to do with the feeling of futility in their position. My own family is super alcoholic, but I don't think that alcoholic ethnicities are genetically doomed that way.
in the USA, the majority of indians are alcoholic at some point, perhaps due to the economic futility and horrible forced boarding schools, yet latinos are clustered with black people in having a low % of alcohol users overall, at a use rate that is lower than euro-americans. Asian americans are the lowest. Latinos of course have a similar genetic background, but are instilled to be the worker class of american society. Yet when we look at poverty, the consequences of having a drug problem when you're poor is much worse for african-american/latino working class.

i see the interests of small business people as synonymous with the interests of the community. the neighborhood merchants association should organize an enforcement arm and help patrol the streets to make sure that store owners are insulated from the concerns of non-merchants.

[anarchists/libertarians/freedom&alcohol-lovers should join this enforcement arm]

i support the vandals desire to fight the liquor stores blighting the community, but their tactics turn me off. i hope the police catch them.

>When you phrase the issue like this, of course the answer is no. At least its supposed to be. But its not exactly an honest appraisal of the behavior, now, is it?

Indeed it is. Alcohol prohibition is a basic tenet of the NOI, of orthodox Islam and of some Christian and semi-Christian sects. It's a religious creed. That some misguided non religious people also support it makes it not one iota less so.


>The reason you're not getting yes or no answers is that this is not a yes or no situation for many of us (although the arson definitely changes things.)

No it doesn't, at least not politically or socially. Legally, it's a bigger beef, but the law id not the issue here. The issue is that a minority of religious fanatics are attempting to impose their will by force on people who want nothing to do with it. The only difference between these goons and the mutaween is that the mutaween have the backing of their state.

I am simply appalled at how blinded by racism you all have become. If white men trashed an Arab owned store, you'd be up in arms. But when Black men do it, you let them slide. Some of you even praise them for trying to, as the racists put it, save the "primitive Negroes" from their "baser instincts." That's racist to the core. Get over it. Black people have the same right as you do to decide for themselves whether to drink or not. They are as capable as you all are of making that decision for themselves.

These stores are not a blight on the neighborhood, except in the eyes of meddlesome, teetotalling prudes. To everyone else, they are a handy convenience.

These goons are nothing but new Carrie Nations. We all know where that led. If you yourself drink, but support these goons, you're racist hypocrites. If you don't drink, but support them, you're just racists. Either way, shame on you all.


>the "vandals" will make the case that they were defending the interests of the community.

So did the guys who passed the Volstead Act. So did Hitler. So what?


>the interests of small business people as synonymous with the interests of the community

This is not necessarily true, though in cases in may be. However the interests of their customers are quite a different matter. This was not just an attack on the shop keepers. It was an attack on the rights of their customers. It is no different than when the Nazi skinheads trashed and firebombed Bound Together to keep our customers from being able to by anti-racist propaganda there. On the commodity level, and that*is* what we're talking about here, there is no difference between a bottle of wine and the latest copy of Race Traitor. Both are objects which alter consciousness, which you have a right to acquire, which a tiny minority of goons say you don't.


>Do you oppose ALL political violence?

No. i support poltical violence when it defends our rights. I believe, for example, that the store clerk should have shot these goons down on the spot.

>Black people have the same right as you do to decide for themselves whether to drink or not. They are as capable as you all are of making that decision for themselves.<

That is a total twisting of what's being said. Before you go off and start typing "no it's not, you're a racist," please answer this: did you read the studies that were cited earlier? It's not a matter of a different standard for blacks and arabs, it's a matter of who is being targeted and how. Targeting communities with an abundance of alcohol stores is racism, is classism, is discrimination. You don't see this kind of saturation in Piedmont, let alone somewhere like Seacliff over in SF. There's a word for it, one that you seem to be inclined to throw at caucasians and people of color alike who happen to disagree with you -- it's called racism.

Besides, I never, *ever* said that attacking their shop was right. What I *did* say was that I could understand the frustration over conditions in Oakland, which may or may not have anything to do with alcohol. Again, read the studies before you go shooting off your mouth (again.)

Lastly, I really think it's a waste of time even talking with you. You seem to stake out a position, and never so much as give an ounce of consideration to an opinion that doesn't match your worldview. It's a little bizarre to me that you claim to be wanting to build a better world when you can't even dialogue with people who don't share your point of view about the world we have in front of us.

ps: smart money says that you are probably a certain person who works with another IMC site that happens to be in the same geographic area as this one. If this is the case, shame on you for not being willing to at least use the pseud you usually use, and for coming over here and trying to stir up shit. It's not gonna work.

Just saw this in the newswire

CBS 5 Investigates reported on how the federal government is actually helping more liquor stores to open or stay open
http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/11/1786569.php

So, then, is it okay for the Feds to directly subsidize increasing the numbers of liquor stores in poor neighborhoods but wrong for the neighborhood to fight back?

Apparently some here think so, despite the proven deleterious effects of an overabundance of these stores.


Why would the Feds be doing this, I wonder? What was that someone said about environmental racism earlier? And how exactly does the Fed promoting these stores against the will of the so many of the people fit into theories about a "free society of willing equals"?

may i assume that if someone burns down a gas station or a hummer dealership, you make no similar complaints?

"These stores are not a blight on the neighborhood, except in the eyes of meddlesome, teetotalling prudes. To everyone else, they are a handy convenience."

no, they are more than that. they are what the people demand. people don't want grocery stores and opportunity. the people have spoken and demand more liquor stores. but these stores represent more than convenience and the will of the people. they are our most valued symbols of freedom and should be protected with the lives of well, not me, but you perhaps

now, get in line and defend these stores whilst I snipe online, ignorant of the neighborhood, ignorant of the entrenched policies favoring and propagating them, ignorant of the "legal" efforts to fight them for years and years, and ignorant of the science of the ill effects an overabundance of these stores correlates with

it reeks of religion, even though that barely has anything to do with the issue at hand, so it is bad, bad, bad to have any problems with these stores. it's that simple. are you against freedom? well, are you, punk?

>are you against freedom? well, are you, punk?

riiiiiiiiiiiiight. A more convincing argument I've never seen. lol

I don't think that unfettered free market policies are "freedom." More specifically, creating the social conditions that tend to lead to alcoholism (and what tends to come with alcoholism, such as an increase of violence, if the studies cited earlier are any indication) on the one hand while allowing, if not encouraging, a proliferation of stores in one area that happens to be predominately poor and of color is not only wrong, it's a form of social apartheid.

On the other hand, I don't believe in prohibition. As an anarchist, I think the best solution is for the members of a community to work these issues out on their own (and yeah, ideally without burning people's livelihoods down to the ground.) However, as someone with a social conscience, I'm not going to lose a ton of sleep if the state doesn't dish out yet more small business loans for yet more liquor stores in yet another poor community to pour yet more gasoline on the fire. Screw that, for real.

That being said, I don't think the real power, let alone the real solutions reside either with the state or the "free" market. They reside with the people.

>are you, punk? (whoops)

Ignore that last post -- I think I, um, missed something in the translation. ;-x

This is what you get when you type too fast...<g>

don't sweat it, no heroes

It was a spoof, but that doesn't make your refutation of it any less valid.

The joke really was/is on the person being spoofed. A lot of high and mighty hullaballoo. The clue was the admittance of ignorance on any aspect of the issue -- you will see no shame or humility from that poster in real life, apparently always so sure of himself. It would suck to be able to be so easily parodied, as he is, but when you actually listen to other posters and respond thoughtfully, it's a little more hard to be spoofed.

Really we shouldn't keep saying NOI this and that as if we know for sure it was them. It's annoying really .. as if they are the only Black men we walk around in suits or have suits for that matter.


2. The guys in the photo do not dress like NOI Fruits of Islam. That is NOT the FOI union and never was. A regular suit doesn't make you FOI. Stop reaching... I know how you all would love too but really your reaching big time. Let the cops investigate and God willing find these fools before you slander people you have no idea about.

3. NOI is not capitolist. Infact I don't know where you pulled that monkey from but thats totally off. Clearly, yet again,you haven't spoken to a real high ranking member or read any of their books on self reliance, and economic growth. They use more of a co-op arguement. Thier stores are operated like co-ops as well. One shouldn't speak about things they have no knowledge off.

4. This fire is interesting... no forced entry... hmmm. Again, I know you have a desire to jump for joy but I would like to sit back and see what the cops come up with 1st. The NOI has never been into either type of behavior. The usually only move when called upon by the community to do so. To move drug dealers, to address a guy beating up on a women etc. The NOI is mostly talk without any real implementation. Like I said because the old head won't give up the reigns to the younger more educated members. Which is another reason why there numbers are still and will stay so small.

really until i see a group any group do what I saw them do here when I was a kid I can't take much anyone says serious. I don't consider them Muslim at all to be honest. I should leave that between them and God to decide. Yet still no one has since ever made that kind of change so quick. They didn't have to kill tons of black men to do it. They were shown all over the news taking shot guns and other weapons right out of drug dealers hands and no one got hurt. You couldn't get people to live there now its so expensive you can't even get a 1 BR APT becuase it's 1800 a month.

5. White people need to understand that ACTION not words will get more blacks to change thier view on the NOI. While people sit around and talk about it and light a candle. The NOI will say show me where the trouble is... That's why no matter what faith you belong to when Farakhan request an audience people come. It also helps that when he speaks he doesn't speak as if he needs you to convert to his form of "Islam" or be damned to hell. He knows 99% of the people don't take that space ship, God walking on earth, Elijah isn't dead but on the mother ship mess seriously. lolol

You guys aren't listening..

>You guys aren't listening

Nope, many of them aren't. Thanks for the first-hand report, hopefully people will start to get it.

In terms of NOI: I really feel like I can't possibly say anything remotely positive about them here without getting hounded. It's really typical, in my experience. In terms of what happened: you're right, none of us know what's up as to who do what around this, and the speculating is just trash talking.

It's really hard for me to take people who criticize the NOI seriously when they don't do their research, paint everybody and everything associated with them with the same brush, and basically take a Dirty Harry "my way or the highway" kind of approach to "discussion" whenever somebody disagrees with them. I'm sorry, but you're discussing, I'm discussing, and a few other people here are discussing. Everybody else? Half. Stepping. lol

>It would suck to be able to be so easily parodied, as he is, but when you actually listen to other posters and respond thoughtfully, it's a little more hard to be spoofed.<

It's so hard to be the savior of humanity -- but I mean, somebody has to impersonate Clint Eastwood. ;-)

Useless - but not for long,

nhso

I'm gonna ignore the trolls (who don't know squat about NOI, Islam or much of anything anyway) and ask Sherri' a question.

You said:

>The NOI is mostly talk without any real implementation. Like I said because the old head won't give up the reigns to the younger more educated members. Which is another reason why there numbers are still and will stay so small.<

and then:

>$1800 rents, can't even get a 1 bedroom apt<

The Bay Area is dealing with the same sorts of problems around rent prices, and has been for a while. My question for you is: do you think that groups like NOI's not giving it up for the younger folks has a role in the rents going so high -- not because they caused the rents to go through the roof (duh), but because as you said, they aren't really on the implementation tip?

I don't know the answer to that question, that's why I'm asking it -- but what what I do know is that people are being driven out of their communities all over the country because of this skyrocketing rent thing. It's got to stop.

They way I read her comments were that the NOI helped clean up a "bad" neighborhood, earning respect from official and citizens' corners alike, and the longer term result of that was rents being jacked up in the improved neighborhood.

The thing I am not sure of is, if I read things above semi-correctly, is there a correlation between the Feds cutting off City funds to NOI and the rent issue? Would NOI having had a continued role in maintaining the neighborhood have made a difference? And, as no heroes asks, does the "bark over bite", don't step in unless asked, NOI behavior you note have anything to do with it?

Btw, the Oakland cops have cleared NOI in vandalism attacks, at least that's what they are saying, but they are not yet saying the same for local Black Muslims. Meanwhile, Jerry Brown calls for more talk on the issue...

----------------------------

Mayor Jerry Brown called the store attacks outrageous.

"It's wrong," he said. "People can't just barge into a store and start breaking property. It's not only illegal, but it's the kind of violence that is unacceptable and will be dealt with very seriously."

Brown said, "If there are issues, and there are issues in Oakland with liquor stores, people can come together to discuss them."

These questions are directed to those who wrote on the specific subjects, altho cothers can chime in like they always do:
1. What differentiates the Fruit of Islam from other NOI bow-tie and suit types? I'm not saying that because i believe that if they wear bow-ties and suits, they must be NOI. In fact, i'm surmising the opposite. I thiink it was people trying to blame it on the NOI, either some governemnt cointelpro-type thing, or a private rival group. Did you see the surveillance cameras' videos?
2. Can you explain more about the NOI's internal business relations, and the co-op type thing you said existed?
3. Can we trust the Oakland police to a good inestigation? With the nature of the police itself and their relationship to poor communities especially one of color? With Councilmember Miley and probably more seeming to justify the attacks? With it being possibly a cointelpro-type thing? With it being a way to get Blacks and Arabs fighting with one another? With it beign a way to blame the NOI as they become more mainstream and liberla and change their ways, as per Farrakhan recent speeches? This is of course a rhetorical question as compared to my first two.

The reaction to the attacks on the liquor stores was about what could have been predicted. The sense of outrage from white leftists, white right-wingers and others over the poor liquor stores will ring hollow for those who live in communities where deaths near such stores have been common for the past few years. While one does ocassionally hear peoople speak out against violence it strange to see so much focus on property damage when 83 people were murdered in Oakland in 2004 with many more shot but not killed.

The atacks on the stores may have been racially motivated and as such a hate crime, but it is worth noting that it's not like peole who are concerned about the number of liquor stores in Oakland didnt try other means first.

Oakland takes on liquor stores
ASK MEMBERS of almost any urban neighborhood association to describe their biggest and most entrenched problem and, with few exceptions, fingers will point to liquor stores. What used to be convenient markets for staples such as bread and milk are now often gathering posts for undesirables, dispensaries for cigarettes and alcohol, and magnets for illegal behavior, trash and blight.
http://www.marininstitute.org/about_us/coverage_112104.htm

"CBS 5 Investigates has found that thousands of loan guarantees worth millions of dollars have been going to liquor stores in the Bay Area and across California -- and some of them have gone to stores with repeated calls for violent crimes."
http://cbs5.com/investigates/local_story_005151208.html

Unincorporated areas tired of absorbing liquor businesses
http://www.looksmartcities.com/p/articles/mi_qn4176/is_20050215/ai_n9727226

Residents Must Participate in Controlling Alcohol Outlets
http://www.berkeleydailyplanet.com/article.cfm?issue=11-22-05&storyID=22828

New Alcohol Policy Proposed for Alameda County
http://www.horizonservices.org/community_notes.htm#ordinance

The following section in something from PNN also relates to some of the previous discussion:

""I started in West Oakland when I was nine years old, my family migrated here from Louisiana, during the time I was coming up, West Oakland was beautiful," Linnie Cobb, another OG resident of West Oakland rooted in the community was touching on the real roots of gentrification/colonization, i.e., the descimation of healthy communities through redlining and zoning laws, which in West Oakland happened when zoning laws were changed many years ago facilitating the plethora of liquor stores and bars, i.e., the ruin of a thriving Black community which now facilitated the current cheap land grabs by big developers like Central Stations Rick Holiday , also known for kick-starting loft development in San Francisco."
http://www.poormagazine.org/index.cfm?L1=news&category=37&story=1521

I think it's Bey's group - except they could be out of town friends. It's just consistent. Nessie should consider being Chris Thom pson's bodyguard - there is a long list of people that Bey's group has intimidated before New York market - which I noted does have a vegetable section with cheaper prices than Safeway.

If you are so sure, then why would they appear on camera in their trademarked outfits?

They wanted to be martyrs for the cause and are willing to go to jail?

To help recruitment?

Let us in on your thinking.

Thanks for the links. This definitely set off a flag for me, though:

>What used to be convenient markets for staples such as bread and milk are now often gathering posts for undesirables, dispensaries for cigarettes and alcohol, and magnets for illegal behavior, trash and blight.<

Undesirables? Whoa, careful...I mean, the Buck Trust may feel they have a right to decide who is "undesirable" and who isn't, but this is exactly the kind of "help" that gentrifies neighborhoods. While I think alcoholism is a problem in poor communities of color for the reasons I stated above, I'm totally not down with this way of casting people who are victimized by the system. Using language like "undesirables" to describe the kids on the corner is just, I don't know, it sounds like something Sarkozy would say. Poor people aren't the problem here.

Sometimes the enemy of my enemy is my enemy, and the same enemy throughout at that...

>It's Bey's group
>It's the NOI
>It's a conspiracy
>It's little green men
>It's the Queen of England, just ask LaRouche

Enough with the speculating, alright? You're talking out of your you know what. Please. Use your mouth, don't just run it.

1800 dollar rent? Not quite, people. It's 1800 if you're living directly across the street from UC Berkeley, or perhaps a nice place in piedmont or other similar areas. Even where the rent is $1800, there are no shortages of places to buy alcohol, even hard alcohol.

Also, there are at least 5-6 major grocery stores (safeway sized) in the small area which is being targeted by people...so I don't know why everyone is bitching about not being able to buy bread at a liquor store....which incidentally, you can. You can also buy liquor AT safeway stores in the bay area, actually.

>5-6 major grocery stores (safeway sized) in the small area which is being targeted by people<

Five to six? Where? There's the Korean market several blocks away, and then there's the Pack and Save in Emeryville, which is also several blocks away. Contrast this with the area around UC Berkeley, for example.

>You can also buy liquor AT safeway stores in the bay area, actually.<

That's not the point, it's a question of density of liquor stores per square mile in a relatively dense urban area, as per the studies that were cited.

That liquor stores per se cause violent crimes to exist. It could be purely coincidental (i'm not being funny). People in the hood are violent befor many reasons, their poor and need money, they have no hope etc. Poor neighborhoods thru the "magic" of the economics of the marketplace have a lot of small stores. That doesn't mena that the small stores which sell a lot of liquor causes violence. It doesn't mena that the majority of those people who drink in those communities and are customers of those stores cause violence. I am sure that a minority of customers cause violence and that they more violent on alcohol than not. That's no reason to throw out the baby (the liquor stores) becuase he's crying (drinking).
What should he done? Attempt to solve poverty, and while you're doing this give good self respect, and a reason for hope. Get good medical care including care for alcohol and drug problems that are voluntary and aren't preachy. Ohters should add things to this list of thigns that can be doen, and ways the thigns i said in a fairly generalized way should be implemented. Oh, yeah, try to get more good but cheap stores in the neighborhoods that do sell liquor but don't maek ti a mainstay.

>may i assume that if someone burns down a gas station or a hummer dealership, you make no similar complaints?

Don't burn down gas stations and hummer dealerships. It accomplishes nothing, except to make the rest of us look bad by association.

If you insist on burning things down, you could at least do some good with it. If enough people burned down enough defense plants, in enough different places, war would come to an end. War can't be fought without spare parts and ammo.


>Targeting communities with an abundance of alcohol stores is racism, is classism, is discrimination.

Bullsh*t. It's business, nothing else. These stores locate where they do for one reason and one reason only, to make money. If there wasn't a market for their products where they are located, they'd go out of business. The (geographic) community supports these stores, literally, by spending their money there. They spend their money there because it's convenient, i.e., within walking distance.


>You don't see this kind of saturation in Piedmont, let alone somewhere like Seacliff over in SF.

People who live in Piedmont and Seacliff own cars. They don't have to rely on local convenience stores. They can drive to a favorite liquor store and drink what they please. They don't have to go to one within walking distance and buy what they can afford.

Convenience store cater to a specific, class defined, clientele. They are geographically concentrated because their clientele is geographically concentrated, no other reason.



>> You seem to stake out a position, and never so much as give an ounce of consideration to an opinion that doesn't match your worldview.

(1.) That's an ad hominem, not a rebuttal.

(2.) I have considered your opinion. I've concluded that it's wrong. What, you expected me to agree with something that's wrong, just because you said it? Sorry. It doesn't work like that. If you want me to agree with you, you have not only have to be right, you have to be able to prove it. Nothing less counts.


>> It's a little bizarre to me that you claim to be wanting to build a better world when you can't even dialogue with people who don't share your point of view about the world we have in front of us.

I am dialoguing. I'm just not agreeing with you, that's all. You want to not dialog with people who don't agree with you? OK, don't dialog with me. I'll live. People who stick up for wannabe mutaween have nothing to say that I want to hear anyway. I've heard enough of that kind of crap to last me a lifetime already.


>> shame on you

I'm not here to "stir up shit." I'm here to try to undo some of the harm that fools like you do to the world when you up in public for evil men who are doing evil things, and will do even worse things if they get away with this.

Your racist analysis sucks, too. You're preaching racism on Indymedia. That's not acceptable behavior. It's loathsome. And no, I will not fail to call you on it.


>>The alternative is poverty, starvation, exploitation and war. Is that what you want? Well, is it?

Still no answer. Lotta bunk logic wisecracks, but no actual answer to the substance of the question. Why is that? Don't you have an answer?

Well, maybe you don't. OK, let me rephrase it then:

Do you want a free society of willing equals? Well, do you? Be specific.

I really shouldn't get sucked into this crap. It's not fair to the editors, and it makes this IMC read more like Usenet than what it's intended goal is -- to provide an alternative source for news media. It's not a discussion board, and it was never intended to be a discussion board.

Suffice it to say, that there are some people (and one person in particular) who I have strong disagreements with -- and we could talk on endlessly, but it's not going to change things. Nessie can think I'm supporting the American Taliban (TM) all he wants, but he's wrong. I would hope that's obvious by now, but he's digging in his heels, as per usual. As such, I'm bowing out, for real this time. Throw cold water on me if I step in here again to comment.

another possible reason you refuse to condemn (in the same terms) the white anarchists burning car dealerships is because you are likely to come into contact with them.

its hard to keep respecting yourself when you might find yourself sitting next to and working with people you publicly decried as Nazis. but if its a group you never expect to work with or come into contact with, the denunciation comes easy, doesnt it?

"If there wasn't a market"

nessie sayeth, more or less: yes, market forces are good and natural. the will of the people is expressed in these stores' proliferation. the people took a vote and chose to have more liquor stores and less grocery stores. it's their fault and they are getting what they deserve. and when the Feds give mad loans to prop these stores up, that's the will of the people too

get real

people spend money there because they have no other choice, but that's okay with our little market-force capitalist in sheep's clothing

admit it, you don't give a damn about the people in this neighborhood. you ignore the science presented here on the issue despite your claims to value empirical evidence. you're more interested in your utopian "free society of willing equals" and to the people who live here today you say "let them eat cake" (or liquor and top ramon)

OAKLAND
Handling liquor stores already on the agenda
FORCING ACTION: Five shops have had to quit selling alcohol while others have installed cameras, started closing earlier

Jim Herron Zamora, Chronicle Staff Writer

Thursday, December 1, 2005

[oakland liquor store map: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2005/12/01/BAG23G12N01.DTL&o=2]


Oakland city officials who have defended the owners of liquor stores vandalized and burned in the past week have also worked for a decade to force problem markets to close or reduce loitering and crime.

The result: The city has forced five stores to close or stop selling liquor in the past two years, while dozens of others have changed their business practices voluntarily or under pressure.

"People are frustrated with some of the bad behavior associated with these stores," said Councilwoman Nancy Nadel. "It does take a long time to close down a store that is causing a problem. But that is no excuse for violence or vigilantism."

There are 350 stores licensed to sell liquor in the city of 400,000 residents -- or one store for every 1,150 people. Most of the stores are clustered in the city's poorest neighborhoods. In West Oakland, for example, there is one liquor store for every 300 residents.

Other Bay Area cities, including in San Francisco and Berkeley, have worked to regulate liquor stores, but Oakland's efforts are seen as a model in California. Two weeks ago, San Francisco Supervisor Sophie Maxwell, who has spent years combating problem liquor outlets in Bayview-Hunters Point, sponsored a strategy similar to Oakland's.

...

Page B - 1

Headline: Crack Pipes and High-Octane Wine

Did you catch that it is one liquor store per 300, yes 300, residents in west oakland?

This multitude of stores does have a responsibility to the communities in which they profit. Residents have *long* been frustrated with the situation and these free-enterprise merchants seem to only respond to serious community and public pressure, beyond whatever profit motives they have. To this point the pressure has all been through officially sanctioned channels and thank goodness that has resulted in improvements like them having stopped selling crack pipes, but the fact remains, people are frustrated with the system as it is favors merchants over community concerns, be it that business interests choose to pull their grocery stores out of the neighborhood or install one liquor store for every three hundred residents.

"People are frustrated. I am frustrated. Sooner or later something will have to give. I just hope most of it is positive rather than destructive..."

----

more from article above:

"Where ever we went, there was that same problem -- liquor stores," said Alex Nguyen, head of the law corps. "That was the one common denominator for what neighbors prioritized a serious problem for the area where they lived."

The law corps published a guide, "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly," which rates the city's liquor stores. In 2003, the city, working with religious leaders, also prodded dozens of liquor store owners to sign a pledge to close their doors at midnight, two hours earlier than state law allows; stop selling cheap, high-octane wine and drug paraphernalia, including glass tubes; and attend community meetings.

Damn

I've seen sf.indy people in the Your black muslim bakery a few times (the one on San Pablo... I don't walk by the downtown one much). Maybe they could bring up the issue when they are ordering food, and that would be a more efficient use of energy than either trying to guard all those stores, or indirectly speaking about the political perspective of that group in forums that they don't read.

Which ones? Be specific.

>Which ones? Be specific.

Why do you need to know people's names? That's not an OK thing to ask, especially in an anonymous forum such as this.

>That's not an OK thing to ask, especially in an anonymous forum such as this.

Or rather, it's not an OK thing to ask for AT ALL. If people want to reveal their real names, let them do it themselves.

Why not? I've been there now and then too. This weekend, I'll be a Bound Together books a some point.

>Why not?

Look, it's just plain creepy. Putting out where people visit by name without their permission is highly unethical. Just because it's OK by you, that doesn't mean that every person wants to subject themselves to whoever happens to be trolling the internet for whatever reason to know where they shop.

You appear to live in a world where people don't get harassed or stalked because somebody doesn't like what they have to say.

yeah, no names. this shit is not about the indymedia vs indybay bullshit anyway, dammit.

(1.) That's an unsubstantiated allegation. If it can't be substantiated, no allegation should be made. It's bad journalism and bunk logic.

(2.) Even if it were substantiated, it's irrelevant.

Not only is it bad journalism, it's unethical. It's also none of your business, or anybody else's, unless the poster wants you to know their name.

>nessie why don't you get yourself a job as a security guard? then you can at least get paid to defend absolute property and commerce rights.

I'm not defending property or commerce rights. I'm defending the right of all my fellow workers, no matter what their race or ethnicity, to choose for themselves whether to drink or not. I'm defending their right, if they choose to drink, to do so at their convenience, unrestrained by class considerations such as owning a car so they can drive out of the neighborhood to shop. I'm defending the right of all my fellow workers, no matter what their religion, if any, to not have to live in fear of having roving bands of wannabe mutaween trying to force Islam's prohibition of alcohol on them with clubs.

Now I have a question for you. Why are you not defending the rights of all *your* fellow workers? This is not a rhetorical question. I have the common human decency to reply to your question. Show the common human decency of replying to mine. There must be a reason you are not defending the rights of your fellow workers. What is it? Be specific.

yes, in West Oakland, the citizens are "unrestrained by class considerations"

dream on

the one liquor store per 300 residents is there by popular demand, perhaps? simply a matter of people "choosing" these stores, market forces and all? no family wealth paying for these stores? no extra help from the feds to finance them? no help from liquor store associations that favor their own ethnicities? they just magically appear as a manifestation of the will of the people?

quit with with phoney "we the people" pablum. your neighborhood and it's liquor stores are not the same as west oakland's. does your neighborhood have as high a rates of poverty, unemployment, lack of resources, and murder? (a very close friend of mine just lost a 16 year old kid she's worked with for 4 years on Wednesday.) what's the average selling price of a home in your neighborhood and how many african americans live there? does your neighborhood have 1 liquor store per 300 residents? it's highly doubtful

perhaps you feel "unrestrained by class considerations" but the people of west oakland, and the rest of the oakland flatlands, do not.

as for straw men, you defend the rights of all workers? hardly. you pick and choose. some "workers" who work for a paycheck can be dangerously clobbered on the head at random with no condemnation from you and yet others who are actually owners of stores have more rights than the residents in the community who cannot afford to open stores. nice dodge with the worker angle, but you're really talking about owners, as most of these stores are family owned and do not just hire workers off the street. you're really trying really hard to avoid the issues related to poverty and the blight these stores contribute to, being both a symptom and a cause of much trouble. hardly a peep from you about poverty and the poor people who live in it daily. don't think we don't notice.

OAKLAND (KRON) -- Some West Oakland community leaders say they oppose the recent vandalism of liquor stores in the area. Still, they hope the publicity surrounding the crimes opens a dialogue about the number of stores that sell alcohol in the neighborhood.

Wednesday night religious and civic leaders met with people in the community to talk about the liquor stores.

"We're not here to beat up on the liquor stores," West Oakland resident Earl Jacobs told KRON 4's Heather Donald. "Are their problems with some of the liquor stores? Yes. Are there with all of them? No, some of them are working to be good neighbors."

Community leaders say they want to work with those stores to reduce the emphasis on alcohol sales and offer more goods that people want and need.

"People want a grocery store in the community," Pastor Raymond Lankford said. "They want more variety certainly more fruits, more vegetables other than the liquor they're selling. There used to be grocery stores. We don't have grocery stores in West Oakland anymore."

Organizers describe Wednesday's meeting as a working session to prepare for a larger, still unscheduled, town hall meeting to address these issues.

You fail to demonstrate causality. There is a reason for this. When people get hit on the head, it is not because there is a liquor store nearby. It's primarily because they employed insufficient means to defend themselves. The proximity of a liquor store, or lack thereof, is not a determining factor.

As for class, yeah, not having a car really does inconvenience one. If you have a car, you can drive to a liquor store. If you have no car, you either walk or take public transportation. Neither is convenient. Neither is safe. If you are going to walk, the shorter the distance you have to walk, the less likely you are to be hit on the head in the process. The more time you spend walking around in the ghetto, the greater danger you are in. That makes the proximity of stores not just an issue of convenience issue, but a safety issue. But even if it was only a convenience issue, that's enough. How dare you try to make convenience a remain a class privilege? Don't poor people have a right to convenience, too? Why should they have to travel further, spend more time and risk greater danger to buy a drink than you do? what makes you so damn special?

It is deeply offensive that you you consider that people in rich neighborhoods should be treated differently than people in poor neighborhoods. Thinking like that, and people like you, are a big part of the problem. What's wrong with you? Do you *want* a class society? Why? Do you really think you're entitled to more rights and an easier life than people with less money than you have? If so, you're disgusting. If you also call yourself a radical, you're a hypocrite. Either way, shame on you.

An ad hominem is not a rebuttal. if they *had* a rebuttal, these people would be presenting it, instead of calling people names. But they don't.

>>clobbered on the head at random

you missed my point. maybe it was too vaguely made. I was referring to the cop that had his head bloodied in local G8 thing. he was a worker, too, and many people cheered that occurence

>The proximity of a liquor store, or lack thereof, is not a determining factor.

on this though, you are dead wrong. there's scientific surveys up the wazoo that show strong correlations between the two. some are linked here or in the other related thread. you should read them. west oakland has one liquor store for every 300 residents (oakland averages over 1000 residents per liquor store) and west oakland has amongst the highest unemployment rates and murder rates in the state (a good friend of mine lost a 16 year old she has worked with for 4 years just this wednesday). completely unrelated coincidence these correlations? doubtful

>deeply offensive that you you consider that people in rich neighborhoods should be treated differently than people in poor neighborhoods

yes, I do. poor people deserve more resources than they can buy themselves with their relatively meager incomes. the general population should be expected to pitch in to help the less fortunate. rich people can take care of themselves just fine.

>Don't poor people have a right to convenience, too?

you just don't get it, do you? poor people are pissed at the situation, not just the Black Muslims (who are different than the Nation of Islam, just to clear that up once and for all). have you read ANY of the linked posts about the situation in west oakland? people are not praising these stores by and large. residents. other businesses. politicians. everyone knows the situation is fucked up, everyone but you. people have to use the stores, because there is nothing else, but it is unacceptable and everyone who knows squat about the history and current situation in oakland's flatlands knows this. you really should read more (lots of links above) or talk to more people in the neighborhood before you try to transfer what you know about convenience, safety, cars, and whathaveyou regarding YOUR neighborhood liquor stores to the situation in west oakland and pretend that's the be all and end all to the matter.

>Why should they have to travel further, spend more time and risk greater danger to buy a drink than you do?

I live a block from one of the stores that was hit. I use that store myself. I know the neighborhood. you assume far too much.

shame on you for talking so haughtily and condescendingly from such an obviously ignorant position

want more?

for a good time click here

bah said: freedom of choice is bullshit.

Hey bah,

I choose to be armed so I can shoot commie filth down in the street like dogs when the "revolution" comes. In the meantime I give a cheer every time the cops give the dirty hippies a well deserved hiding. Death to the Left.

It’s not easy to muster sympathy for liquor store owners who make their living selling booze to an impoverished inner city community, but when Muslim nutcases start pulling Carrie Nation-style temperance raids, I can always make an exception. The twist here is that while the thugs involved are Muslims (albeit a fairly bizarre and cultish version thereof), so are the owners of the liquor stores they're smashing up.

I remember when the group blamed for these assaults first made its appearance in the Bay Area in 1968, selling awful bean pies from “Your Black Muslim Bakery” and passing out political and religious tracts to passersby. They had a very aggressive, almost menacing sales pitch: if you didn’t buy something from them, it suggested, you must be some kind of racist. Although they would sell their products to white people, they usually wouldn’t interact with them, sometimes refusing to answer even the most basic of questions. But then this was at a time when Elijah Muhammad, founder of the Black Muslims, was teaching that white people were the earthly embodiment of the devil, so you can perhaps understand their caution.

Still, as a dutiful young hippie and radical, I bought their pies and tried to eat them, thinking perhaps that I would thereby be elevated to the level of consciousness necessary to understand why it was “progressive” to support a religion based on racial hatred and medievalism. Eventually – thankfully – I outgrew this need, and didn’t give much more thought to Oakland’s homegrown band of Muslim extremists. From time to time I’d read that they were growing rich and powerful, and that they were being accused of strong-arm tactics, but that’s hardly unusual: the Bay Area’s much-vaunted tolerance frequently extends to groups that might be considered criminals or terrorists in more conventional climates. A borderline fascist group called BAMN (The Coalition To Defend Affirmative Action By Any Means Necessary) made a practice of stealing and destroying copies of Berkeley’s campus newspaper whenever it printed something they didn’t like. Nothing ever happened to them. Hell, Tom Bates, the mayor of Berkeley, tried the same thing when he was campaigning for office. He got elected anyway.

Yusuf Bey, the founder of the Black Muslim Bakery, took advantage of this extra-tolerant attitude, and prospered for several decades before shuffling off this mortal coil just ahead of a child rape charge. But even then, he had his defenders, who said his actions needed to be viewed through the lens of cultural relativity:
"He was a born leader in the sense of an African chief or a Muslim caliph," said Maleek Al Maleek, a 62-year-old mathematician who attended Bey's memorial. "What is prohibited here is not prohibited in East India, where there are child marriages. I can show you chiefs in Africa who have 30 wives ....The ways of the high priests are not shared by the commoner."
One trouble with that theory was that Yusuf Bey wasn’t an African chief or a Muslim caliph, he was plain old J.H. Stephens from Greenville, Texas, an air force veteran and onetime beauty parlor operator. But in California, especially in the Bay Area, you are who you say you are, and you can say you’re just about anyone. His son, Yusuf IV (and how the son of the first Yusuf Bey could suddenly acquire an IV bewilders me, too), is facing some charges over the West Oakland liquor store attacks, but something tells me we haven’t heard the last of Oakland’s own Taliban.

>correlations

Correlation is not causation. Really, look it up.


>poor people are pissed at the situation

Some poor people are indeed pissed at the situation. Other poor people feel precisely the opposite. Others don't care one way or the other. It is fundamentally bogus to state that "poor people" all feel all the same about anything. It's not true. Stop objectifying and dehumanizing poor people. Poor people are individuals, and as such, every bit as varied in their opinions as non poor people. Yeah, some poor people agree with you entirely, and admire you for speaking it out loud. Others think you're an arrogant, ignorant asshole with a big mouth and a small brain.


>everyone knows the situation is fucked up, everyone but you.

To say "everyone knows" is quintessentially bunk logic. You are being fundamentally dishonest to employ bunk logic to try to make a point you can't make by telling the truth. In short, you're lying, and I'm calling you on it.


>you really should read more (lots of links above) or talk to more people in the neighborhood before you try to transfer what you know about convenience, safety, cars, and whathaveyou regarding YOUR neighborhood liquor stores to the situation in west oakland and pretend that's the be all and end all to the matter.


Oh I should, should I? How the fuck do you know what I've read and who I've talked to? What are you, a mind reader? How dare you assume that I'm ignorant, just because I happen to disagree with you? I was living in the flatlands of Oakland before a lot of our readers were even born. I've lived in West Oakland, East Oakland, North Oakland, Chinatown and New Chinatown. I've spent literally decades living in various ghettos, and not just in Oakland and not just in California, either. Yeah, I *do* know what goes on the ghetto. I learned first hand, up close and personal.

Yeah, a lot of it is fucked up. For example, among the most fucked up thing about ghetto life, and about life in general, in the ghetto and out, is arrogant assholes who think they know what's better for other people than those people themselves do for themselves, and then have the impudent effrontery to assume the right to force their opinions on those people against their will.

No, you don't have a right to cram your own personal ideology down other people's throats, not with the clubs of wannabe mutaween and not with the clubs of the cops, either.

>It’s not easy to muster sympathy for liquor store owners who make their living selling booze to an impoverished inner city community, but when Muslim nutcases start pulling Carrie Nation-style temperance raids, I can always make an exception. The twist here is that while the thugs involved are Muslims (albeit a fairly bizarre and cultish version thereof), so are the owners of the liquor stores they're smashing up.<

The NOI aren't considered by most Muslims to be Muslim, so bringing Islam into this is (to quote one poster here) "bunk logic." Sorry, couldn't resist...

Seriously, the issue's much bigger than Yusuf Bey's creepy old dead sexual abuser self. I wish we could talk about this in a larger context, but to be honest, I think there's more than a little bit of old fashioned skin privilege getting in the way of the discussion here overall, not to mention what appear to be biased assumptions about Islam, of which the conflation of NOI into "Islam" is one of the more glaring ones.

Given the degree to which any serious discussion of race and/or non-western views on just about anything seem to be quickly rejected by many anarchists as tired PC cum marxist dialectics, I suppose where this "conversation" has ended up is not suprising. It's still flawed thinking though in my view, not to mention culturally provincial in its outlook. You'd think people who claim to be anti-authoritarian would care about such things...

I'm not directing this so much at you personally, as towards the conversation overall. It feels more than a little stilted to me.

The NOI call themselves Muslims the same way that Mormons call themselves Christian. That some Muslims disagree, just as some Christians disagree that the Mormons are "real" Christians, is irrelevant. It is being employed as a distraction. The issue here is not whether or not these scum are "real" Muslims or not. The issue is their behavior.

Islam forbids alcohol.

The mutaween consider themselves to be Muslims, carrying out what *they* consider to be the tenets of Islam.

The wannabe mutaween consider themselves to be Muslims, carrying out what *they* consider to be the tenets of Islam.

Whether the NOI are "really" Muslims or not is every bit as irrelevant as whether or not Mormons are "really" Christians. All that matters is their behavior in the name of their religion, whatever that religion may be. It sucks. If you defend it, you suck. Period. End of story.

WHY DOES AN SF-IMC EDITOR SPEND MORE TIME ON INDYBAY COMMENT THREADS AND ATTACKING THIS SITE THAN HE DOES WORKING ON HIS OWN SITE?

AS OF 12/6/05 AT NOON:

TOP SF FRONT PAGE FEATURE
Tookie Williams Rally Photos
by mwp Tuesday, Nov. 22, 2005 at 12:08 PM

TOP SF LOCAL NEWS POST
San Francisco Real Food Workers to be Rehired
by Worker Freedom Monday, Nov. 28, 2005 at 5:07 AM

BUT HE HAS SPENT HOURS AND HOURS MAKING COMMENTS HERE AND EVEN MORE ATTACKING THIS SITE.

WHAT ARE SF-IMC'S REAL PRIORITIES???

it's really hard to say without a thorough psych eval

either way, it's certainly not the productive and "radical" work he professes himself to be doing