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Indybay Feature
The World Can Wait?
SFPD has denied WCW a permit to protest on November 2nd.
The World Can Wait?
10/18/05
Justin Smith
The Field Operation Bureau has denied a (parade) permit to The World Can’t Wait national protest scheduled for November 2nd. The permit was denied on the basis that it will disrupt traffic especially on a weekday because the march will at one point proceed down Market St. Organizers are now fighting for the opportunity to file for an appeal to the County Board of Supervisors to overturn the police department’s decision.
The police department has been stalling and changing appointment times every 15 minutes today denying organizers an appointment to obtain the necessary paper work to file for an appeal in order to bring it to the Board of Supervisors. Two members of the Board of Supervisors have already signed the World Can't Wait call, Tom Ammiano and Chris Daly.
There are a number of reasons for choosing Market Street to protest. The first reason is that this was the street that people gathered on the first day the Iraq War started. Second Many other symbolic protests have occurred on this street. Third, that this protest corresponds to the national protest. Finally, this protest is meant to halt business as usual, to get people to leave work and school, and bring attention on to those who are doing the same. The protest has confirmed over 30 cities participating in this event.
World Can't Wait has called for a convergence rally at the Civic Center at noon and march, the rally will also end at the Civic Center at 4:30 p.m.
IMPORTANT NOTE: Please ask people who contact their
Supervisors to copy their emails, letters, etc. to the
SF office of World Can't Wait:
World Can't Wait
2940 - 16th Street, Room 200-6
San Francisco, CA 94103
sf [at] worldcantwait.org
------------------------
Here is the contact info for the SF Board of
Supervisors:
Michela Alioto-Pier, District 2
1 Dr. Carlton B. Goodlett Place, Room 244
San Francisco, CA 94102-4689
(415) 554-7752 - voice
(415) 554-7843 - fax
Michela.Alioto-Pier [at] sfgov.org
Tom Ammiano, District 9
1 Dr. Carlton B. Goodlett Place, Room 244
San Francisco, CA 94102-4689
(415) 554-5144 - voice
(415) 554-6255 - fax
Tom.Ammiano [at] sfgov.org
Chris Daly, District 6
1 Dr. Carlton B. Goodlett Place, Room 244
San Francisco, CA 94102-4689
(415) 554-7970 - voice
(415) 554-7974 - fax
Chris.Daly [at] sfgov.org
Bevan Dufty, Disrict 8
1 Dr. Carlton B. Goodlett Place, Room 244
San Francisco, CA 94102-4689
(415) 554-6968 - voice
(415) 554-6909 - fax
Bevan.Dufty [at] sfgov.org
Sean Elsbernd, District 7
1 Dr. Carlton B. Goodlett Place, Room 244
San Francisco, CA 94102-4689
(415) 554-6516 - voice
(415) 554-6546 - fax
Sean.Elsbernd [at] sfgov.org
Fiona Ma, District 4
1 Dr. Carlton B. Goodlett Place, Room 244
San Francisco, CA 94102-4689
(415) 554-7460 - voice
(415) 554-7432 - fax
Fiona.Ma [at] sfgov.org
Sophie Maxwell, District 10
1 Dr. Carlton B. Goodlett Place, Room 244
San Francisco, CA 94102-4689
(415) 554-7670 - voice
(415) 554-7674 - fax
Sophie.Maxwell [at] sfgov.org
Jake McGoldrick, District 1
1 Dr. Carlton B. Goodlett Place, Room 244
San Francisco, CA 94102-4689
(415) 554-7410 - voice
(415) 554-7415 - fax
Jake.McGoldrick [at] sfgov.org
Ross Mirkarimi, District 5
1 Dr. Carlton B. Goodlett Place, Room 244
San Francisco, CA 94102-4689
(415) 554-7630 - voice
(415) 554-7634 - fax
Ross.Mirkarimi [at] sfgov.org
Aaron Peskin, District 3
Board President
1 Dr. Carlton B. Goodlett Place, Room 244
San Francisco, CA 94102-4689
(415) 554-7450 - voice
(415) 554-7454 - fax
Aaron.Peskin [at] sfgov.org
Gerardo Sandoval, District 11
1 Dr. Carlton B. Goodlett Place, Room 244
San Francisco, CA 94102-4689
(415) 554-6975 - voice
(415) 554-6979 - fax
Gerardo.Sandoval [at] sfgov.org
Field Operations Bureau
(415) 553-1411
10/18/05
Justin Smith
The Field Operation Bureau has denied a (parade) permit to The World Can’t Wait national protest scheduled for November 2nd. The permit was denied on the basis that it will disrupt traffic especially on a weekday because the march will at one point proceed down Market St. Organizers are now fighting for the opportunity to file for an appeal to the County Board of Supervisors to overturn the police department’s decision.
The police department has been stalling and changing appointment times every 15 minutes today denying organizers an appointment to obtain the necessary paper work to file for an appeal in order to bring it to the Board of Supervisors. Two members of the Board of Supervisors have already signed the World Can't Wait call, Tom Ammiano and Chris Daly.
There are a number of reasons for choosing Market Street to protest. The first reason is that this was the street that people gathered on the first day the Iraq War started. Second Many other symbolic protests have occurred on this street. Third, that this protest corresponds to the national protest. Finally, this protest is meant to halt business as usual, to get people to leave work and school, and bring attention on to those who are doing the same. The protest has confirmed over 30 cities participating in this event.
World Can't Wait has called for a convergence rally at the Civic Center at noon and march, the rally will also end at the Civic Center at 4:30 p.m.
IMPORTANT NOTE: Please ask people who contact their
Supervisors to copy their emails, letters, etc. to the
SF office of World Can't Wait:
World Can't Wait
2940 - 16th Street, Room 200-6
San Francisco, CA 94103
sf [at] worldcantwait.org
------------------------
Here is the contact info for the SF Board of
Supervisors:
Michela Alioto-Pier, District 2
1 Dr. Carlton B. Goodlett Place, Room 244
San Francisco, CA 94102-4689
(415) 554-7752 - voice
(415) 554-7843 - fax
Michela.Alioto-Pier [at] sfgov.org
Tom Ammiano, District 9
1 Dr. Carlton B. Goodlett Place, Room 244
San Francisco, CA 94102-4689
(415) 554-5144 - voice
(415) 554-6255 - fax
Tom.Ammiano [at] sfgov.org
Chris Daly, District 6
1 Dr. Carlton B. Goodlett Place, Room 244
San Francisco, CA 94102-4689
(415) 554-7970 - voice
(415) 554-7974 - fax
Chris.Daly [at] sfgov.org
Bevan Dufty, Disrict 8
1 Dr. Carlton B. Goodlett Place, Room 244
San Francisco, CA 94102-4689
(415) 554-6968 - voice
(415) 554-6909 - fax
Bevan.Dufty [at] sfgov.org
Sean Elsbernd, District 7
1 Dr. Carlton B. Goodlett Place, Room 244
San Francisco, CA 94102-4689
(415) 554-6516 - voice
(415) 554-6546 - fax
Sean.Elsbernd [at] sfgov.org
Fiona Ma, District 4
1 Dr. Carlton B. Goodlett Place, Room 244
San Francisco, CA 94102-4689
(415) 554-7460 - voice
(415) 554-7432 - fax
Fiona.Ma [at] sfgov.org
Sophie Maxwell, District 10
1 Dr. Carlton B. Goodlett Place, Room 244
San Francisco, CA 94102-4689
(415) 554-7670 - voice
(415) 554-7674 - fax
Sophie.Maxwell [at] sfgov.org
Jake McGoldrick, District 1
1 Dr. Carlton B. Goodlett Place, Room 244
San Francisco, CA 94102-4689
(415) 554-7410 - voice
(415) 554-7415 - fax
Jake.McGoldrick [at] sfgov.org
Ross Mirkarimi, District 5
1 Dr. Carlton B. Goodlett Place, Room 244
San Francisco, CA 94102-4689
(415) 554-7630 - voice
(415) 554-7634 - fax
Ross.Mirkarimi [at] sfgov.org
Aaron Peskin, District 3
Board President
1 Dr. Carlton B. Goodlett Place, Room 244
San Francisco, CA 94102-4689
(415) 554-7450 - voice
(415) 554-7454 - fax
Aaron.Peskin [at] sfgov.org
Gerardo Sandoval, District 11
1 Dr. Carlton B. Goodlett Place, Room 244
San Francisco, CA 94102-4689
(415) 554-6975 - voice
(415) 554-6979 - fax
Gerardo.Sandoval [at] sfgov.org
Field Operations Bureau
(415) 553-1411
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Comments
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fuck the RCP ("Revolutionary" Communist Party)
> fuck the RCP
Oh, come on -- please don't be a dork. If you have issues with the RCP, speak to them, don't just cut and run. It makes us look like we suffer from the so-called infantile disorder that (ahem) some people accuse us of, if you get my drift.
Oh, come on -- please don't be a dork. If you have issues with the RCP, speak to them, don't just cut and run. It makes us look like we suffer from the so-called infantile disorder that (ahem) some people accuse us of, if you get my drift.
From the “The Revolution Will Not Be Authorized” department:
If we apply for a permit, the police might say “no.”
>There are a number of reasons for choosing Market Street to protest.
Market Street? You may want to look at the specifics of response over the past few years to anything that's not permitted there. In particular, look at the response around 4th and 5th street.
Market Street? You may want to look at the specifics of response over the past few years to anything that's not permitted there. In particular, look at the response around 4th and 5th street.
should have been at the organizing meeting.
you were invited.
you were invited.
> bring it up at the meeting
I'm not trying to run shit from the sidelines, honest. Just pointing out something, in case you weren't aware. I hope it goes well.
I'm not trying to run shit from the sidelines, honest. Just pointing out something, in case you weren't aware. I hope it goes well.
Here's a prediction. The WCW action will be a titantic bust. And it will be so, in large part because of the RCP's history of craven opportunism toward other progressive forces - and the left's healthy distrust of the noxious cult of personality you've fostered around Avakian. Don't take my word for it - take an internal survey from RCP party activists around the country about how this proposal is being received by the Left and the broader antiwar movement. ( you don't have to disclose this to the rest of us, but at least find out the truth )
Fact is, your party collectively has only yourselves to blame. Time for a little crit/self crit, comrades.
Fact is, your party collectively has only yourselves to blame. Time for a little crit/self crit, comrades.
..are you saying that there are public meetings? if so, when's the next one?
read the flyer, or (gasp) the paper, and call the number or email or whatever. a websearch might even turn it up (go ahead, prove me wrong).
do yer own research. this isnt mcdonalds culture. and organizing meetings have been announced.
do yer own research. this isnt mcdonalds culture. and organizing meetings have been announced.
No one is going to let this happen on Market St. Not for this silly fringe group. There won't be enough people there to fill a parking lot.
all due respect, I went to the website and didn't find anything. if what you're saying is "do your homework," I respect that. there's no reason to accuse me of falling prey to fast food culture, though. i mean, whatever.
i also don't live in a location where there's world can't wait flyers posted up all over town. believe it or not, not everybody who comes here to get information lives in SF, Oakland or Berkeley. (gasp - oh the horror called the rest of the world)
i also don't live in a location where there's world can't wait flyers posted up all over town. believe it or not, not everybody who comes here to get information lives in SF, Oakland or Berkeley. (gasp - oh the horror called the rest of the world)
fuck the permit. the commies need to put their money where their mouth is. march anyway, god damn it! what's needed now is not more ANSWER-style pointless symbolism and all the other nonsense liberal bullshit, we also don't need more of these fuckingnarchist hipsters sitting around drinking and talking about how one day there will be revolution and isolating themselves and not doing shit about it. what needs to happen is escalation of real militancy and working people need to fucking attack the war machine by any means necessary.
at triple w dot worldcantwait dot org
at the top of the screen
is a toll free number
an email address
a subscribe to the mailing list button
and a bunch of info
all this achieved in about 4 minutes with a google search on "world can't wait" "revolutionary communist party"
and then a bit of poking around.
there's a whole bunch of info on ways to get involved there: shop, donate, faq, about, contact, press, organizing material, media.
the planning meeting might have already happened.
the internet means you dont have to live in a hipster ghetto to find this stuff, so, no sympathy there, buddy. and, it may be nicely, but it looks like you're still playing, and that might be a part of the problem. no offense...
at the top of the screen
is a toll free number
an email address
a subscribe to the mailing list button
and a bunch of info
all this achieved in about 4 minutes with a google search on "world can't wait" "revolutionary communist party"
and then a bit of poking around.
there's a whole bunch of info on ways to get involved there: shop, donate, faq, about, contact, press, organizing material, media.
the planning meeting might have already happened.
the internet means you dont have to live in a hipster ghetto to find this stuff, so, no sympathy there, buddy. and, it may be nicely, but it looks like you're still playing, and that might be a part of the problem. no offense...
>no offense...
none taken -- but ya know, I've tried to talk with people in the RCP before, and mostly what I get is massive overkill,(sell me a paper yadda yadda) and that ain't my style. I much prefer to come to a meeting, sit in the back and come to my own conclusions. you may think i'm playing -- but if you do, you're also hating on a lot of other people -- working class people -- who deal with things the same exact way. Once burned, twice shy...
you'd be surprised what you can accomplish by laying back a bit -- not always, but sometimes. please think about this before you jump down my throat like I'm some kind of petit bourgeois fool who spends all their life on the internet.
none taken -- but ya know, I've tried to talk with people in the RCP before, and mostly what I get is massive overkill,(sell me a paper yadda yadda) and that ain't my style. I much prefer to come to a meeting, sit in the back and come to my own conclusions. you may think i'm playing -- but if you do, you're also hating on a lot of other people -- working class people -- who deal with things the same exact way. Once burned, twice shy...
you'd be surprised what you can accomplish by laying back a bit -- not always, but sometimes. please think about this before you jump down my throat like I'm some kind of petit bourgeois fool who spends all their life on the internet.
the point is that you were armchair quarterbacking the strategy, when you could have been involved in it.
bad social hygiene. worth pointing out.
as they say, peace out.
bad social hygiene. worth pointing out.
as they say, peace out.
>the point is that you were armchair quarterbacking the strategy, when you could have been involved in it.
OK. ::deep breath::
Look, do whatever you want with the information -- all I'm saying is that if you plan to hit Market Street, be prepared. How you prepare is up to you. That's not armchair strategizing, that's trying to help -- and in the time we've spent going over this, you could have done an internet search yourself and found out exactly what I'm talking about. don't make the same mistakes we've made.
if you want to get your ass kicked by the cops (or not), that's your business. but when it comes right down to it, you don't know shit about me. please don't make assumptions.
ps: buddy? hah, please. you can't even get my gender right.
OK. ::deep breath::
Look, do whatever you want with the information -- all I'm saying is that if you plan to hit Market Street, be prepared. How you prepare is up to you. That's not armchair strategizing, that's trying to help -- and in the time we've spent going over this, you could have done an internet search yourself and found out exactly what I'm talking about. don't make the same mistakes we've made.
if you want to get your ass kicked by the cops (or not), that's your business. but when it comes right down to it, you don't know shit about me. please don't make assumptions.
ps: buddy? hah, please. you can't even get my gender right.
OK, now that I have that off my chest...
first off, I can't be attendance at a meeting I'm not aware of. Second off, I'm serious about Market Street -- look at the RTS actions of June 8th, 2004 and you'll know what I'm talking about. *I AM HONESTLY CONCERNED FOR YOUR WELFARE*. If you want to view that as armchair quarterbacking, well, I tried.
thirdly -- are you saying that anarchists and anti-authoritarians are welcome at world can't wait planning meetings? I mean, I'm aware that you're putting forth as a coalition, but we've not exactly always been pals.
as we say, peace out...
first off, I can't be attendance at a meeting I'm not aware of. Second off, I'm serious about Market Street -- look at the RTS actions of June 8th, 2004 and you'll know what I'm talking about. *I AM HONESTLY CONCERNED FOR YOUR WELFARE*. If you want to view that as armchair quarterbacking, well, I tried.
thirdly -- are you saying that anarchists and anti-authoritarians are welcome at world can't wait planning meetings? I mean, I'm aware that you're putting forth as a coalition, but we've not exactly always been pals.
as we say, peace out...
any fool who read the paper was invited to the meeting. and there's info all over the net.
i suppose only maoists and the fbi are invited?
and i make no assumptions. i prefer empiricism but will settle for testimony in a pinch. buddy.
thanks for the concern, though. next time i see the maoists i'll remind them that the cops get really violent around here.
as they say, peace, please.
i suppose only maoists and the fbi are invited?
and i make no assumptions. i prefer empiricism but will settle for testimony in a pinch. buddy.
thanks for the concern, though. next time i see the maoists i'll remind them that the cops get really violent around here.
as they say, peace, please.
>peace
likewise. if you honestly want to get corralled on market street, well...like I said, I hope you have a plan. I mean, I know you're not stupid, and believe me, I know the cops are violent. but at this point, I'm just wasting my time trying to clarify something you're not interesting in hearing.
see you in the streets sometime...whoever you are...
likewise. if you honestly want to get corralled on market street, well...like I said, I hope you have a plan. I mean, I know you're not stupid, and believe me, I know the cops are violent. but at this point, I'm just wasting my time trying to clarify something you're not interesting in hearing.
see you in the streets sometime...whoever you are...
the meetings for these authoritarians are bullshit. I tried to go to their announced meeting once, and not ONE of them showed up. The second try, all that happened was a vague, structureless discussion and they kept pushing their propaganda on me...these meetings are for you to plug in and do work for them, not to develop strategy, direction, plans, or anything for that matter.
>the meetings for these authoritarians are bullshit. I tried to go to their announced meeting once, and not ONE of them showed up. The second try, all that happened was a vague, structureless discussion and they kept pushing their propaganda on me...these meetings are for you to plug in and do work for them, not to develop strategy, direction, plans, or anything for that matter.<
Unfortunately, that's what I presumed -- but I'm more than willing to be proven wrong. So it goes.
Unfortunately, that's what I presumed -- but I'm more than willing to be proven wrong. So it goes.
Hmmmmmmm. George Bush and his turdwinger brigade and Sean Hannity. (Puke.) Um, it looks like we can say goodbye to outreach efforts and the Bill of Rights. Nice knowing you. There is no justice. What can we expect next? Will the fascists come to kick me for being a Native American? Will my vision-impaired friends now be starved just because they're feminists? Gosh it's open season on senior citizens. Moron. Bible-thumpers. If you ask me, Fuhrer Bush can talk about "God" all he wants, all the while raping despoiled elderly atheists in Fallujah, so his coalition of creationistic employees can greet Canadian migrant dwarfs in Vieques. Who do they think they're fooling. I reject destruction and fur. We've seen this before, in 2000 in Louisiana, when 13,288 homeless rainforests were stabbed by the Moral Majority. Chimpboy lied about that too. (Or is that supposed to be a secret?) They can't be serious.
This article serves as a good critique and exposition of the notorious history of the RCP.
http://www.illegalvoices.org/knowledge/general_articles/mythology_of_the_white-led_vanguard.html
http://www.illegalvoices.org/knowledge/general_articles/mythology_of_the_white-led_vanguard.html
good to see the rcp being criticized
check out this article posted by them, in which they actually use the term "illegal immigrants"...
For more information:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/10/177420...
in the comment that the comment above linked to, there was a link to the RCP's new position on homosexuality...in which they say, "Lesbianism is in many ways a response to the oppression of women in class society, but in and of itself it is not a fundamental solution to this oppression." - wtf?
wow, I didnt know that "lesbianism" was just a political response to oppression...
>lesbianism and the RCP
Um, I think you're twisting what they're saying. The way I read that is simply that lesbianism can be a radical response to an oppressive society -- but that it's not necessarily radical in nature. It's more of an observation about sexuality than a critique of sexuality. In short: lesbian sexuality can be radical, but there's nothing that says it must be so. Sometimes fucking is just fucking...
Further, this response is mild compared to what anti-assimilation, anti-authoritarian queer groups like Gay Shame put forth. That's not a criticism of Gay Shame, by the way -- I'm just pointing out the RCP is not the first group to say that not all lgbt folks (or in this case, lesbians in specific) are radical.
For all their flaws, please don't start making up things about the RCP. It's really bad form, not to mention with all the real enemies that lgbt folks have, the last thing we need "help" with is interpreting nuances in line from a group who has renounced a formerly homophobic policy. Criticizing them for taking their sweet time about it, but please don't jump on them for stuff like this.
ps: I *could* say a lot here about sexism and homophobia in the anarchist community (especially sexism), but I'm trying to play nice.
Um, I think you're twisting what they're saying. The way I read that is simply that lesbianism can be a radical response to an oppressive society -- but that it's not necessarily radical in nature. It's more of an observation about sexuality than a critique of sexuality. In short: lesbian sexuality can be radical, but there's nothing that says it must be so. Sometimes fucking is just fucking...
Further, this response is mild compared to what anti-assimilation, anti-authoritarian queer groups like Gay Shame put forth. That's not a criticism of Gay Shame, by the way -- I'm just pointing out the RCP is not the first group to say that not all lgbt folks (or in this case, lesbians in specific) are radical.
For all their flaws, please don't start making up things about the RCP. It's really bad form, not to mention with all the real enemies that lgbt folks have, the last thing we need "help" with is interpreting nuances in line from a group who has renounced a formerly homophobic policy. Criticizing them for taking their sweet time about it, but please don't jump on them for stuff like this.
ps: I *could* say a lot here about sexism and homophobia in the anarchist community (especially sexism), but I'm trying to play nice.
I don't agree with the RCP on many questions, but everyone who's talking about the Lesbianism quopte, is talking about theri old poition. In their new platform/manifesto document, they flat out support lesbian and gay rights.
as fro sexism in the anarchist community, do tell us. How cna we appove if you makean innuendo weithout specifics. Or si that your point, to make innuendo.
as fro sexism in the anarchist community, do tell us. How cna we appove if you makean innuendo weithout specifics. Or si that your point, to make innuendo.
>Or si that your point, to make innuendo.
Nope. Look, I'm not talking shit -- if you don't believe me, check it out yourself. But look at anarchist culture -- not "anarchism," not every anarchist in the Bay Area, anarchist culture -- and you'll see what I mean. Lots of boys, especially white boys, who basically look at anarchism as an outgrowth of punk. There definitely is a macho culture present, and with that, comes sexism. I'm definitely not saying that everybody is on that page (anarcha-feminism addresses sexism, and then there's the response to sexual predators in Earth First!) -- but it is a pervasive problem.
Bottom line is, I don't need to make innuendoes -- much of what I've been talking about is known. Flaw number one in our community, especially in the Bay Area: thinking that the problems we can't see in ourselves as a community aren't noticed by others.
If a group as heirarchical and doctrinaire as the RCP can acknowledge their mistakes, what does it say about us as a community that we're blind to our own mistakes?
Nope. Look, I'm not talking shit -- if you don't believe me, check it out yourself. But look at anarchist culture -- not "anarchism," not every anarchist in the Bay Area, anarchist culture -- and you'll see what I mean. Lots of boys, especially white boys, who basically look at anarchism as an outgrowth of punk. There definitely is a macho culture present, and with that, comes sexism. I'm definitely not saying that everybody is on that page (anarcha-feminism addresses sexism, and then there's the response to sexual predators in Earth First!) -- but it is a pervasive problem.
Bottom line is, I don't need to make innuendoes -- much of what I've been talking about is known. Flaw number one in our community, especially in the Bay Area: thinking that the problems we can't see in ourselves as a community aren't noticed by others.
If a group as heirarchical and doctrinaire as the RCP can acknowledge their mistakes, what does it say about us as a community that we're blind to our own mistakes?
>I don't agree with the RCP on many questions, but everyone who's talking about the Lesbianism quopte, is talking about theri old poition. In their new platform/manifesto document, they flat out support lesbian and gay rights.
Glad to hear it -- while I stand by what I said earlier, the lesbianism quote did sound a lot like the standard 70s era "political lesbianism" line. If nothing else, kinda dusty at this point. There's a lot I could say about the pros and cons of that viewpoint, but it's both off-topic and moot.
Glad to hear it -- while I stand by what I said earlier, the lesbianism quote did sound a lot like the standard 70s era "political lesbianism" line. If nothing else, kinda dusty at this point. There's a lot I could say about the pros and cons of that viewpoint, but it's both off-topic and moot.
!st) Sorry about my typos in the last piece 2) Most of the anarchist community repudiates the sexism and machismo (they're different but inter-related) you tlak about. One of the goodnesses and badnesses of the anarchist COMMUNITY is that it not monolithic like the RCP. In the Bay Area alone there are at least 100-200 different independent anarchist affinity groups and projects. None can speak for each other. However they all to a T, haver condemnd sexism and machismo. And yet it still exists. I a sure that there are RCPers who quit becuase the new pro-gay line, or who chafe under their breath about it. We in the anarchist community are just more honest. We will work toward a day when sexism ceases to exist but in a partially sexist society some of us will be sexists.
As the author of this article, lets focus on getting Bush the fuck out. I think that takes priority.
>As the author of this article, lets focus on getting Bush the fuck out. I think that takes priority.
Sure. How do you propose doing that?
Sure. How do you propose doing that?
"As the author of this article, lets focus on getting Bush the fuck out. I think that takes priority."
I think most of us are focused on this, and it is taking priority. Taking a minute or two out of our time to comment in a discussion about the RCP isn't a problem....that is, unless you are RCP...
I think most of us are focused on this, and it is taking priority. Taking a minute or two out of our time to comment in a discussion about the RCP isn't a problem....that is, unless you are RCP...
Q: But aren't there communists in World Can't Wait?
A: Yeah, there are. Supporters of the Revolutionary Communist Party helped initiate it. They're in it because they think it's absolutely urgent to get rid of this regime, that it would both lift a huge burden from the world and would also give people a sense of their own potential power, and they think all that would open up avenues to get to the society they want. Same as a whole lot of other people in World Can't Wait which, by the way, includes Greens, Christians, Republicans, anarchists, Muslims, Jews, feminists, Democrats, pacifists, and people who claim no affiliation who also think it's urgent to drive out the Bush Regime and who also think it can help lead to bigger changes that they want in society, coming from their own viewpoints.
But to turn the question around, if you refuse to pitch in to November 2, when you know that this is what has to be done, just because there are communists in it, then you need to think about how well that worked back in Nazi Germany (when the many forces opposed to Hitler could not find the ways to unite). And how exactly would you explain your particular brand of "abstinence only" policy to a prisoner at Abu Ghraib or a teenager in Tennessee who desperately needs an abortion or someone whose mother was killed at a checkpoint near Falluja? And then after you think about that, you need to actually start working on November 2. To stand aside at this point is really unconscionable.
----------------
I'll say it again: we need to end the sectarianism. As anarchists, we complain a lot (and rightfully so) about ANSWER having a seemingly endless stream of protest marches, without taking things to the next level. I know the RCP started this off, but ya know, this isn't a front group, either.
If nothing else, contact the people who are endorsing them, and find out why they're on board.
A: Yeah, there are. Supporters of the Revolutionary Communist Party helped initiate it. They're in it because they think it's absolutely urgent to get rid of this regime, that it would both lift a huge burden from the world and would also give people a sense of their own potential power, and they think all that would open up avenues to get to the society they want. Same as a whole lot of other people in World Can't Wait which, by the way, includes Greens, Christians, Republicans, anarchists, Muslims, Jews, feminists, Democrats, pacifists, and people who claim no affiliation who also think it's urgent to drive out the Bush Regime and who also think it can help lead to bigger changes that they want in society, coming from their own viewpoints.
But to turn the question around, if you refuse to pitch in to November 2, when you know that this is what has to be done, just because there are communists in it, then you need to think about how well that worked back in Nazi Germany (when the many forces opposed to Hitler could not find the ways to unite). And how exactly would you explain your particular brand of "abstinence only" policy to a prisoner at Abu Ghraib or a teenager in Tennessee who desperately needs an abortion or someone whose mother was killed at a checkpoint near Falluja? And then after you think about that, you need to actually start working on November 2. To stand aside at this point is really unconscionable.
----------------
I'll say it again: we need to end the sectarianism. As anarchists, we complain a lot (and rightfully so) about ANSWER having a seemingly endless stream of protest marches, without taking things to the next level. I know the RCP started this off, but ya know, this isn't a front group, either.
If nothing else, contact the people who are endorsing them, and find out why they're on board.
From http://www.worldcantwait.org. Note the presence of oh-so-notorious card-carrying maoists Tom Ammiano, Kathleen Hanna, Cornel West, Mark Leno, Cindy Sheehan, Howard Zinn and Ron Kovik, unequivocal proof that WCW is nothing but a front for the RCP. Or maybe the sinister cabal that is the RCP has led these noted progressives into a morass of commie decadance and depravity, stealing away the precious life force that is their endorsement out from under their collective noses. Is it OK that I say collective? I wouldn't want anybody to think that I'm a communist, after all.
Yes, I'm being sarcastic. Get a grip, people, please.
ps: Now watch somebody go the other direction and accuse WCW of being liberal apologists.
Endorsers include:
After Downing Street Coalition
Tom Ammiano, San Francisco Board of Supervisors
Anti-Flag
Axis of Justice
Mumia Abu-Jamal
David Cobb, 2004 Green Party Presidential Candidate
Code Pink: Women for Peace
Chris Daly, San Francisco Board of Supervisors
Democrats.com
Tom Duane, New York State Senator
Michael Eric Dyson
Jody Evans, Code Pink
Francis Fox Piven
Francis Golden
Suheir Hammad, poet
Sam Hamill - Poets Against War
Kathleen Hanna, Musician
Bill T. Jones, Dancer
Yuri Kochiyama, Oakland
Rev. Earl Kooperkamp, St. Mary's Episcopal Church
Ron Kovic, author of Born on the 4th of July
Mark Leno, California Assemblyman
Tom Morello, Audioslave
Not in Our Name
Outernational
Ozomatli
Jeremy Pikser, screenwriter, Bulworth
Kevin Powell, writer
Progressive Democrats of America
Boots Riley, The Coup
Cindy Sheehan
Sunsara Taylor, Revolution Newspaper
Studs Terkel
Cornel West, Princeton University
Ann Wright, former US diplomat, resigned in protest of Iraq war
David Zeiger, Displaced Films (Sir, No Sir)
Howard Zinn, historian, author of A Peoples' History of the United States
Yes, I'm being sarcastic. Get a grip, people, please.
ps: Now watch somebody go the other direction and accuse WCW of being liberal apologists.
Endorsers include:
After Downing Street Coalition
Tom Ammiano, San Francisco Board of Supervisors
Anti-Flag
Axis of Justice
Mumia Abu-Jamal
David Cobb, 2004 Green Party Presidential Candidate
Code Pink: Women for Peace
Chris Daly, San Francisco Board of Supervisors
Democrats.com
Tom Duane, New York State Senator
Michael Eric Dyson
Jody Evans, Code Pink
Francis Fox Piven
Francis Golden
Suheir Hammad, poet
Sam Hamill - Poets Against War
Kathleen Hanna, Musician
Bill T. Jones, Dancer
Yuri Kochiyama, Oakland
Rev. Earl Kooperkamp, St. Mary's Episcopal Church
Ron Kovic, author of Born on the 4th of July
Mark Leno, California Assemblyman
Tom Morello, Audioslave
Not in Our Name
Outernational
Ozomatli
Jeremy Pikser, screenwriter, Bulworth
Kevin Powell, writer
Progressive Democrats of America
Boots Riley, The Coup
Cindy Sheehan
Sunsara Taylor, Revolution Newspaper
Studs Terkel
Cornel West, Princeton University
Ann Wright, former US diplomat, resigned in protest of Iraq war
David Zeiger, Displaced Films (Sir, No Sir)
Howard Zinn, historian, author of A Peoples' History of the United States
I'm cruising around Indymedia sites to see where different discussion are regarding World Can't Wait... and one thing stands out in this thread: there is literally no substance to the attack on this project and I honestly can't tell whether the anonymous critics are right-wingers or anarchists... something that seems to be a regular problem.
I'm working for Nov. 2 and I don't really give a shit if the permaleft turns out or not. I'm interested in all the millions of people not currently organized -- and not in what people eat, their style of dress or vocabulary.
So, let the haters hate and we shall see.
I'm working for Nov. 2 and I don't really give a shit if the permaleft turns out or not. I'm interested in all the millions of people not currently organized -- and not in what people eat, their style of dress or vocabulary.
So, let the haters hate and we shall see.
in fact, the more substantive discussion is at:
http://indybay.org/news/2005/10/1774208.php
...which has kind of dropped out of sight, with interesting implications: divide and conquer a thread?
anyway, the main discussion has been over whether one [person/group/entity] can play nice with the rcp or not. it's an apparently substantive question with two sides to the issue, as has been the case for at least the last 20 years, if seen in light of the "not in our name" and "refuse and resist!" campaigns, to say nothing of oh-22.
for what it's worth, i think the real problem is left intolerance.... and ignoring it hasnt made it go away. others think differently, and neither they nor that which they would critique has gone away either.
does that make it all pointless? even if we reify action over theory, such questions interfere with working together, and that just might be the real point of discussing it.....................
http://indybay.org/news/2005/10/1774208.php
...which has kind of dropped out of sight, with interesting implications: divide and conquer a thread?
anyway, the main discussion has been over whether one [person/group/entity] can play nice with the rcp or not. it's an apparently substantive question with two sides to the issue, as has been the case for at least the last 20 years, if seen in light of the "not in our name" and "refuse and resist!" campaigns, to say nothing of oh-22.
for what it's worth, i think the real problem is left intolerance.... and ignoring it hasnt made it go away. others think differently, and neither they nor that which they would critique has gone away either.
does that make it all pointless? even if we reify action over theory, such questions interfere with working together, and that just might be the real point of discussing it.....................
For more information:
http://indybay.org/news/2005/10/1774208.php
Noted historian. Emma Goldman fan, and Maoist dupe (sarcasm again here, ok?) Howard Zinn talks about supporting student protest on November 2nd
The link is at http://www.worldcantwait.org/media/howardzinnstudents.mp3.
The link is at http://www.worldcantwait.org/media/howardzinnstudents.mp3.
For more information:
http://www.worldcantwait.org/media/howardz...
two comments ago, "not in our name" should read:
"no buiness as usual"
how the campaigns come and go with the years.....
"no buiness as usual"
how the campaigns come and go with the years.....
For more information:
http://www.worldcantwait.org/media/howardz...
never mind what happened or how it went.
how many anarchos were there? and did the rcp sell papers?
bigotry in action.
news flash: no one cares that you believe in anarchy, except yourselves. what good is your belief to anyone else?
how many anarchos were there? and did the rcp sell papers?
bigotry in action.
news flash: no one cares that you believe in anarchy, except yourselves. what good is your belief to anyone else?
If the RCP were honest they would call World Can't Wait
Can't Wait to Tell the World About Bob Avakian
Can't Wait to Tell the World About Bob Avakian
"Can't Wait to Tell the World About Bob Avakian"
they're not shy about the guy, nor about saying so.
that may be part of why you cant stand em. but you can't accuse them of false advertizing. not honestly.
i also really want to know how you can be so intolerant of people who are wild about Bob Avakian, and yet claim to care so much for people who are wild about a guy named Muhammed and dont care much for the likes of you.
isn't that something of a logical contradiction?? or maybe you don't, maybe you're biased against everyone who believes in anyone else, equally.....
they're not shy about the guy, nor about saying so.
that may be part of why you cant stand em. but you can't accuse them of false advertizing. not honestly.
i also really want to know how you can be so intolerant of people who are wild about Bob Avakian, and yet claim to care so much for people who are wild about a guy named Muhammed and dont care much for the likes of you.
isn't that something of a logical contradiction?? or maybe you don't, maybe you're biased against everyone who believes in anyone else, equally.....
>i also really want to know how you can be so intolerant of people who are wild about Bob Avakian, and yet claim to care so much for people who are wild about a guy named Muhammed and dont care much for the likes of you.
OK, well, don't get it twisted. Last time I looked, members of the RCP weren't getting hauled off to Guantanamo with a hood over their head. I understand what you're trying to say (I think,) but equating the RCP with Muslims (in terms of red-bating vs. Muslim hating) is not quite on the mark, no matter how much animosity there is between some anarchists and some members of the RCP.
OK, well, don't get it twisted. Last time I looked, members of the RCP weren't getting hauled off to Guantanamo with a hood over their head. I understand what you're trying to say (I think,) but equating the RCP with Muslims (in terms of red-bating vs. Muslim hating) is not quite on the mark, no matter how much animosity there is between some anarchists and some members of the RCP.
When a discussion.becomes both stalemated and dominated by a handful of voices, it's probably time to move on, ya know? I'm not sure we're getting anywhere here at the moment.
"but equating the RCP with Muslims (in terms of red-bating vs. Muslim hating)"
you kinda got it.
my point is that it's essentially the same behavior-- believing in someone else to the nth degree. In other words, even if the rcp treated bob avakian with religious reverence, their behavior would not be far at all from the norms of human behavior.
and yet, to hear some anarchos tell it, the rcp do belong in some kind of camp. (cross reference the glee with which anarchos remind trots of icepicks, when that assassination was in fact stalinism at its brutal worst.)
therefore, it is hypocrisy for anarchos to offer support to muslims persecuted for their beliefs, while maintaining these attitudes about other reds.
that is the chain of logic. please, break it. better yet, break the habit of hating others for the differences in their beliefs.
you have only your own relevance to gain.
you kinda got it.
my point is that it's essentially the same behavior-- believing in someone else to the nth degree. In other words, even if the rcp treated bob avakian with religious reverence, their behavior would not be far at all from the norms of human behavior.
and yet, to hear some anarchos tell it, the rcp do belong in some kind of camp. (cross reference the glee with which anarchos remind trots of icepicks, when that assassination was in fact stalinism at its brutal worst.)
therefore, it is hypocrisy for anarchos to offer support to muslims persecuted for their beliefs, while maintaining these attitudes about other reds.
that is the chain of logic. please, break it. better yet, break the habit of hating others for the differences in their beliefs.
you have only your own relevance to gain.
on the other hand, people keep engaging in the behavior others of us want to question. so your call to "move on" might be construed as a request for the opposition to silence itself.
just something to think about. glad you've found some resolution though!!
just something to think about. glad you've found some resolution though!!
> that is the chain of logic. please, break it. better yet, break the habit of hating others for the differences in their beliefs.
Oh yeah, with ya there. In my experience, it's more equal parts semi-irrational fear and contempt, which I guess pretty much makes it, well...you know. Intolerance is a kind word for it, I suppose.
Seems to me that learning to work together is much more vital than being all freaked out about something that happened in some other time, in some other country.
Oh yeah, with ya there. In my experience, it's more equal parts semi-irrational fear and contempt, which I guess pretty much makes it, well...you know. Intolerance is a kind word for it, I suppose.
Seems to me that learning to work together is much more vital than being all freaked out about something that happened in some other time, in some other country.
>on the other hand, people keep engaging in the behavior others of us want to question. so your call to "move on" might be construed as a request for the opposition to silence itself.
Oh no, sorry if that came off in that way. Not my intention at all -- I was just concerned that we were getting deadlocked. I'm more than happy to keep going.
Oh no, sorry if that came off in that way. Not my intention at all -- I was just concerned that we were getting deadlocked. I'm more than happy to keep going.
You cna say we have similarities with reds (Communists--capital C) and some anarchos call themselves anarchist-communist meaning they want a coommunist form of economics in a future society, but you cna't saywe are jsut another kind of Red. Communists in genral are some outgrowth of Leninism, a system of alledgedly attemptign to create Communism going thru the state. The Bolshevik Party led by Lenin, Stalin, and Trotsky hounded anarchists. Stalin and Trotsky split on issues of which way to further create the police state. There are historical and political differences between aanrhcist and Leninists that can't be said to be just irrational bias or prejudice. Just because you say (and keep repeating it ad nauseum) that the political differneces that have been raised here are the same as racism or religious prejudice doesn't make it so, even if some people sound irrational in their arguments against "the Commies".
This point is the classic anarchist dispute with communists, especially authoritarian communists:
>The Bolshevik Party led by Lenin, Stalin, and Trotsky hounded anarchists. Stalin and Trotsky split on issues of which way to further create the police state. <
And this, in turn, is one of the arguments from communists against anarchists:
> the political differneces that have been raised here are the same as racism or religious prejudice<
This, along with a strong belief that if the people are without a party and/or a state communist apparatus, they're going to fail and be run over by capitalist/fascist interests, makes up the argument from communists against anarchists.
But as deanosor noted, there is such a thing as anarcho-communism (most easily described as ideologically communist -- worker's collectives, people power, so on -- and organizationally left libertarian, as in people power without the state), as well as council communism and other forms of communism and socialism that aren't 100% about the party, the vanguard, the socialist state, and so on. Look at the Zapatistas. Look at Hugo Chavez. Etc.
Why do I mention all this? Because this is always what it comes down to, once the bickering and sniping *from both sides* is done. Anarchists point to Kronstadt and the Spanish Revolution as examples of how communists have historically felt that the only good anarchist is a dead one, and communists point to a spotty history of success, as well as the failure of the left during the Spanish Revolution (and the subsequent takeover of Spain by the fascists) in order to dismiss anarchism as counter-revolutionary. Meanwhile, look at who is in power, and where we are on the planet.
So. Here we are -- 50 - 70 years later -- and the same arguments are still going on. It seems to me that it's way past time to try to find ways to work together. Even if they're small ways at first, what is increasingly clear to me is that there are people who sincerely want to put aside our differences (as well as people, communist and anarchist alike, who feel that our differences are irreconcilable.) Isn't that more important than being right all the time?
>The Bolshevik Party led by Lenin, Stalin, and Trotsky hounded anarchists. Stalin and Trotsky split on issues of which way to further create the police state. <
And this, in turn, is one of the arguments from communists against anarchists:
> the political differneces that have been raised here are the same as racism or religious prejudice<
This, along with a strong belief that if the people are without a party and/or a state communist apparatus, they're going to fail and be run over by capitalist/fascist interests, makes up the argument from communists against anarchists.
But as deanosor noted, there is such a thing as anarcho-communism (most easily described as ideologically communist -- worker's collectives, people power, so on -- and organizationally left libertarian, as in people power without the state), as well as council communism and other forms of communism and socialism that aren't 100% about the party, the vanguard, the socialist state, and so on. Look at the Zapatistas. Look at Hugo Chavez. Etc.
Why do I mention all this? Because this is always what it comes down to, once the bickering and sniping *from both sides* is done. Anarchists point to Kronstadt and the Spanish Revolution as examples of how communists have historically felt that the only good anarchist is a dead one, and communists point to a spotty history of success, as well as the failure of the left during the Spanish Revolution (and the subsequent takeover of Spain by the fascists) in order to dismiss anarchism as counter-revolutionary. Meanwhile, look at who is in power, and where we are on the planet.
So. Here we are -- 50 - 70 years later -- and the same arguments are still going on. It seems to me that it's way past time to try to find ways to work together. Even if they're small ways at first, what is increasingly clear to me is that there are people who sincerely want to put aside our differences (as well as people, communist and anarchist alike, who feel that our differences are irreconcilable.) Isn't that more important than being right all the time?
"Communists in genral are some outgrowth of Leninism"
i thought it was the marx-bakunin split. that means common roots, in the 1st international. some anarchos take the prodhoun gambit to try to dissociate themselves, but no one really believes it, since those folks end up sounding like ayn randists.
and nope, no hero worship in any of that.....
i thought it was the marx-bakunin split. that means common roots, in the 1st international. some anarchos take the prodhoun gambit to try to dissociate themselves, but no one really believes it, since those folks end up sounding like ayn randists.
and nope, no hero worship in any of that.....
> and nope, no hero worship in any of that.....
Well OK, but Bakunin and Proudhon are dead; Emma Goldman, too. There is a difference between admiring someone for their historical political contributions, and being the living head of an organization. That works for some people, and it doesn't for others.
That being said, anarchist do have "heroes," (my handle notwithstanding.) But that's not the same as centralized leadership under a single person. Power corrupts, the fish rots from the head down, etc. You may not agree with that analysis -- but there is a difference.
PS: there are anarchists who disavow any and all forms of "authority" to the level of condemning so-called hero worship. Myself, I'm somewhere in the middle - I don't have a problem with leaders, as long as their "rule" is not coercive. Is that a porous definition? Sure. Life defies theories.
Example? Zapatistas.
Well OK, but Bakunin and Proudhon are dead; Emma Goldman, too. There is a difference between admiring someone for their historical political contributions, and being the living head of an organization. That works for some people, and it doesn't for others.
That being said, anarchist do have "heroes," (my handle notwithstanding.) But that's not the same as centralized leadership under a single person. Power corrupts, the fish rots from the head down, etc. You may not agree with that analysis -- but there is a difference.
PS: there are anarchists who disavow any and all forms of "authority" to the level of condemning so-called hero worship. Myself, I'm somewhere in the middle - I don't have a problem with leaders, as long as their "rule" is not coercive. Is that a porous definition? Sure. Life defies theories.
Example? Zapatistas.
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