Anti War Pics from Sacramento 10 15 05

We can post audio-files of reporting/interviews on the website. we also have a radio station to use for this purpose.

No liberation works like this - You now can vote and express yourself without being killed or tortured. And last time I checked the only people we are trying to kill are those that murder women and children with car bombs or cut off the heads of hostages. I mean come on, do you really want people capable of doing that to live on this planet? A few well placed MOABs would be too good for animals like that.

Um, yeah. Except this wouldn't be happening (there weren't suicide bombers before the US invasion and occupation. I hate Bush, and wouldn't mind seeing a regime change--hell I might even dance in the streets i8f another country came and removed him! BUT, I would also resent being occupied and attacked and would probably be willing to take up arms to resist that attacker.

The suicide bombers are mostly foriegn fighters, not Iraqis. So it has nothing to do with resisting occupation, it has to do with being animals and wanting to kill. If it is about occupation and throwing the Americans out, why attack Iraqi women and children, teachers and civilians. Because they are simply islamic fantatics that get off on murdering people.

Also, the government of Iraq doesn't want us to leave, can you really be an occupying force if you are wanted there for security.

"The suicide bombers are mostly foriegn fighters, not Iraqis."
Most Iraqi resistance fighters are not suicide bombers and dont support teh attacks on mosques and other civilian targets but that doesnt mean that the suicide bombers are not iraqis. If you look around there are statistics on who has carried out the suicide attacks in Iraq and its overwhelmingly Iraqis.

"So it has nothing to do with resisting occupation, it has to do with being animals and wanting to kill."

At one level that is a base reason for why both Americans and Iraqis fight. Most of the resistance isnt fighting for Islam or national pride they are fighting because friends and relatives were killed by US soliders (or humilated in house searchs). Most US soliders who enjoy killing Iraqis probably suffer from similar motivations; having a buddy killed by an Iraqi allows the soliders to dehumanize the Iraqis in their mind and the fight becomes one of wanting to kill Iraqis for rather racist reasons rather than for anything to do with policy (not that soliders ever really care about policy when their job is to following orders).

"If it is about occupation and throwing the Americans out, why attack Iraqi women and children, teachers and civilians."
The resistance isnt a monolith. Most of the attacks on Shia civilians are probably either carried out for sectarian reasons (the same reason Shia death squads backed by the Iraqi government are executing hundreds of Sunnis) or organized by those who are cynically trying to start a civil war with larger goals making the value of a few civilians here or there seem not important (just as the US military sees things). Most attacks do seem aimed at police and the miiltary so I wouldnt doubt that most in the resistance would never intentionally target civilians but things are disorganized and there are many resistance groups so it really depends on the ones you are looking at.

"Because they are simply islamic fantatics that get off on murdering people."
You could argue that the US soliders are just Christian fanatics who get off on murdering pople (many pilots do ejaculate when they drop bombs), but really that doesnt help one understand the policy reasons the US is in Iraq.

"Also, the government of Iraq doesn't want us to leave, can you really be an occupying force if you are wanted there for security."
Its hard to say what they want. They seem to want Iran's help and weapons more than US help and weapons (the government afterall being the UIA which has SCIRI as its largest and most powerful party and which has the BADR militia as its main fighting force). I think they are marginally in support for the US being in Iraq right now because they currently value usinb the US to cruch the Sunnis for sectarian reasons but it wont take long for them demand the US to leave especially if the US continues threatening the real people who run SCIRI (who also run Iran).

islamic fantatics
Before the US invasion, there weren't " islamic fantatics " doing violence in Iraq. Also, it's only a small percentage (less than 10) that are foreign fighters...

Here's one of many articles:
http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2005/07/17/study_cites_seeds_of_terror_in_iraq/?page=2

Everyone I have talked to has been over there, and in some cases for almost two years, they tell me the people love them and want them there. They tell me they are happy to return to help the people of Iraq. And they tell me about the crimes committed against the people by outside islamic attackers. They wish them to go. But they are greatful to be liberated.

Yeah, they all love the US occupation. You are in denial--big time.

Yeah, them marines are real experts in how peole feel, particularly Iraqis.

Especially the ones they tortured.

Now we torture people? I think you have us mistaken with the previous military (the Iraqis under Saddam) or maybe you mistook us for all those freedom fighters that are running around cutting peoples heads off. Really inspirational, don't remember the Colonists doing that during the American Revolution.

You guys need to get past the hype and really look into things. The people of Iraq for the most part love us, the others don't want us to leave until things are safe and the only people with a real problem about us being there is the terrorists (foriegners that are killing innocent Iraqis) who want to oppress women, and bring some barbaric religion to play in the running of the country.

America is better than turning a liberated country over to savages. We need to stick it out and help these people.

The King's agents, especially tax collectors, had boiling tea poured down their throats, were tarred and feathered and ridden out of town on a rail.

Then there was that wanton, terrorist assault on private property we know as the Boston Tea Party, and the cold blooded, murder of those redcoat gun grabbers at Concord and Lexington.

"Then there was that wanton, terrorist assault on private property we know as the Boston Tea Party"

Yeah, the "Founding Fathers" really wanted to abolish private property -- like plantations and *slaves* -- didn't they.

In fact, the reason for American Revolution itself was the most conservative one in history. It was about rich white men in the colonies gettin' their own without being taxed by the King way back home (in many cases to provide funds to militarily protect the colonists). *After* the Revolutionary victory, George Washington later turned around and brutally crushed the white working class and small farmowners who rose up over high taxes. Washington, Hamilton & Co. said, 'But now those are *our* imposed high taxes! Now justice is whoever is holding the lash!'

Your point above is well-taken, "history buff". I just had a chance to look back up at the earlier part of the thread and 'Mr. Democracy's' post.

As for:

Mr. Democracy Monday, Oct. 17, 2005 at 12:09 PM:

"Now we torture people? I think you have us mistaken with the previous military (the Iraqis under Saddam) or maybe you mistook us for all those freedom fighters that are running around cutting peoples heads off. Really inspirational, don't remember the Colonists doing that during the American Revolution."

No, not the Colonists who ran around viciously slaughtering entire Native American families and wiping out whole villages and scalping them (what *white* men did to *Indians* so they could prove and/or get paid by the govt for how many they killed).

No, not the Colonists who had a whole process for brutally TORTURING black slaves -- males and females -- to 'break them in' or set examples.


Mr. Democracy: "You guys need to get past the hype and really look into things. The people of Iraq for the most part love us,"

So did the 2-3 MILLION Vietnamese we B-52 bombed, cluster bombed, napalmed, and tortured, as we wiped out entire families and villages, huh?

Just like in Iraq, the vast majority -- in Vietnam the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY -- of civilians killed were killed by the imperialist U.S. military -- *FAR MORE* than the U.S. *EVER* claimed that the Vietcong (who didn't have B-52's and napalm bombs) did.


Mr. Democracy: "the others don't want us to leave until things are safe and the only people with a real problem about us being there is the terrorists (foriegners that are killing innocent Iraqis)"

Why not let some other country come free us from George Bush and the other megalomaniacs in the Bush administration who actually wrote out a plan for WORLD DOMINATION and to control the world's critical resources, use us in their proxy wars and then turn on us, come destroy our cities, occupy our country, force their constitution on us (granting them unrestricted rights to our national resources), force us to write into that constitution what kind of foreign policy we can have with Iran [vs. Israel], let them build major permanent military bases in our country, etc -- all based on a pretextual *LIE* -- and not think that anyone will strike back.


Mr. Democracy: "who want to oppress women, and bring some barbaric religion to play in the running of the country."

You mean like *BORN-AGAIN CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISM* WITH ITS *LITERAL* INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE???

-- AND ITS GOAL TO HELP ISRAEL TO FINISH CONQUERING PALESTINE SO THAT THE APOCALYPE CAN COME AND GOD CAN COME BACK AND WIPE OUT JUDAISMM !!???

-- SO THAT ALL CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISTS AND THOSE WHO SUDDENLY CONVERT -- THE LIVING AND THOSE RAISED FROM THE DEAD -- CAN GO TO HEAVEN !!???


Mr. Democracy: "America is better than turning a liberated country over to savages."

YOU MEAN LIKE THE MILLIONS OF "SAVAGES" THE EUROPEAN COLONISTS GENOCIDALLY MASSACRED AND EXTERMINATED ???

AND THE MILLIONS OF "SAVAGES" THE EUROPEAN COLONISTS HELD IN BRUTAL ABJECT CHATTEL OR VIRTUAL BONDAGE -- SELLING OFF FAMILY MEMBERS AND WANTONLY RAPING -- FOR TWO OR THREE CENTURIES ???


AS MALCOLM X SUCCINCTLY ASKED: "DEMOCRACY OR HYPOCRISY?"

Point by point democracy/reasonable guy was checked...that must have hurt. So much truth, so much reality...he probably had to lay down... a bit too much!

So far all the suicide bombers have come from outside. It must be hard to deal with a large multifaceted problem with one liners and slogans.

What you all are missing is the fact that we are doing our best to leave as quickly as possible without caving in to your crowd or any other hate group.

BTW, a little hint. Sudan is next. Does not make the news, but people are going that way now.

...as if anything does "make the news" in this country.

Aside from the Pentagon, that is.

We thought you knew!!!

He is refuted in his ignorance time and time again. He makes wild, inacurrate claims that are shot down repeatedly, then just moves on to another absurd assertion. The fantasy world of Bush lovers is hilarious. What an idiot.

First, America doesn't need rescuing from Bush, he was elected by the American people. We have the President and Policies he campaigned on.

Second, both Indians in America and Colonists did horrible things to each other, the indians were brutalizing each other long before we got here, but that is no excuse. As far as us on their land, well we conquired the Indians and the land is now the USA. Lets face it, the Indians today are much better off living in a civilized world than when we discovered them.

As far as the Vietnamese, the only ones we bombed and killed were the North Vietnamese, you know the citizens of the country that was attacking South Vietnam, an independent country and ally of the US. So no problem there, we took the fight to the people of the country that was waging war, just like we did in WWI, WWII, Korea, etc. If the vietcong and N. Vietnamese left S. Vietnam alone, the war would have ended, we were simply defending.

Lets see, slavery, a practice supported around the world since biblical times, the US actually fought its own war to stop it. So I think we are due some recognition, not condemnation. Ever since, the US has been a strong champion of civil rights. Look at the Bush administration, he alone has had more minorities and women in high positions than any other president. What a great example. And the Republicans want Condi Rice to run for Pres. That is what America is all about.

Oh yeah, Israel, the only true democracy in the Middle East, except for the developing democracy in Iraq. The only country in the middle east that supports freedom for all and doesn't treat women like dogs. Yeah I think we should support that kind of country. No problem here with that one.

As far as the Christian right goes, so we have people that believe in god. This country was founded on the principal of Christianity. But, being the great country we are we seperated church from state, so people can feel free to practice any religion they like. Doesn't me we should discourage people from being religious though.

Finally, as far as Iraq goes, we will leave when the job is done, this country doesn't make it a habit of cutting and running, at least not since we left early in Vietnam (thanks hippies for helping the commies win). Once Iraq is secure and democracy established we will have two thriving democracies in the middle east and the world will be that much more secure.

Inside the Mind of an Iraqi Suicide Bomber
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9327.htm

The First Iraqi Suicide Bombing
http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=477

Suicide Attacks Rising Rapidly
Increasingly, the bombers are Iraqis instead of foreign infiltrators. Civilians and police, not GIs, are the prime targets
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0602-02.htm
TAC: Do we know who is committing suicide terrorism in Iraq? Are they primarily Iraqis or walk-ins from other countries in the region?
RP: Our best information at the moment is that the Iraqi suicide terrorists are coming from two groups—Iraqi Sunnis and Saudis—the two populations most vulnerable to transformation by the presence of large American combat troops on the Arabian Peninsula. This is perfectly consistent with the strategic logic of suicide terrorism.
http://www.amconmag.com/2005_07_18/article.html

Now
"'Martyrs' In Iraq Mostly Saudis"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/14/AR2005051401270.html
does suggest that international groups have taken responsibility for most of the attacks.
But, in most cases where people have been able to trace the backgrounds of actual attackers this hasnt been the case.

"First, America doesn't need rescuing from Bush, he was elected by the American people. We have the President and Policies he campaigned on."

Bush is currently one of the most unpopular Presidents ever and now it looks like he could get into even worse trouble if Cheney and Rove are both tainted for their part of outing a CIA agent to get revenge against someone who dared speak out against Iraq. Beteween Cheney and Rove you have almost all of Bush's policy decission making so there wont be much left if they are forced to step aside. Even if they dont its hard to see how they can recover from the sleaze of: illegal use of classfied information for political purposes, the paying off of news reporters with public funds to promote partisan agendas (ie No Child Left Behind), the K Street scandal (that not only involved Delay and Abramoff but now also involves some sleazy murder plot), the arrest of Safavian who was in charge of federal procurement, ...
Corruption and abuse of power for purposes of personal revenge are not left or right issues they are thing that most of the country is opposed to. The fact that Republicabns and Bush are rallying around those involved in such scandals is their usualy response to anything bad but will slowly awaken even thr right in this country to the immorality of the Bush regime.

Combine all the domestic shit with Iraq and Afghanistan and its hard to see Bush or his party surviving. Back in 2000 when Bush ran for President he based a lot of his support off of Republican issolationists who were opposed to nation-building and wars based off the exact ideas Bush is currently using to retroactively justify the war in Iraq. 9/11 did change public opinion but with the dangers of terrorist attacks in the US growing as a result of the Iraq war, no WMD in Iraq and people starting to wake up to the fact that even before the war all experts claimed little ties between Saddam and any fundamentalist groups.... I cant exactly see any right wing national security types with half a brain supporting Bush or Cheney anymore. Katrina also did in some of Bush's public support permentantly since no matter who one blames for the pitiful response it was clear that the DHS wasnt prepared for another 9/11and that if one occured one owuld likely have them again blaming local authorities rather than doing anything real themselves.

Lets face it, Bush has done nothing wrong, immoral or illegal. If I remember the last president to be impeached was Clinton.

I say again, most stories don't make the news because they don't fit in with whatever agenda is pushed. I see an event and it's either not reported or so twisted I don't recognize it. You get all caught up in cute terms like Neocon, whatever the fuck that is, and hating Bush, that you lose sight of the truth. people lie, govt.lies, why are you surprised when it happens?

Here's more news for you smartass. Privite security companies are looking to leave Iraq by next July as the Iraqis want to do it themselves. US Forces are pulling back, or planning on pulling back from Afghanistan, Korea, Germany and Iraq over the next year. In Afghanistan, NATO is going to do more, in Iraq, we will declare victory and pull out.

Only time will tell, fuckface, if this is true or not.

re [Someone has to speak the truth
by Mr. Democracy Tuesday, Oct. 18, 2005 at 8:12 AM]


It would be like Martin Luther King trying to carry on an informed argument with Archie Bunker.

Look, it is ok, you can think whatever you like but the fact remains that the majority of Americans support the War, Support our President and want to see Victory when it comes to the war on Terror.

You live in a Democracy and you have lost, will continue to lose and will always be a very small minority opinion. But you know what, in this great country we celebrate the minority opinion. That is what our armed forces are protecting right now in Iraq and around the world, the helpless minority opinion that in alot of other countries would mean jail or death. Again, thank god we live in the greatest country in the world. And thank god for our Armed Forces.

Semper Fi

"majority of Americans support the War, Support our President "

WASHINGTON, Oct 18 (Reuters) - With the president's job approval at its lowest ever, the White House said on Tuesday George W. Bush was not driven by public opinion polls and dismissed them as "something Washington gets caught up in."

Bush's job approval rating fell to an all-time low of 39 percent in a CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll published on Monday in the wake of the government's sluggish response to Hurricane Katrina, high gas prices, continued fighting in Iraq and controversy over his nomination of White House lawyer Harriet Miers to the U.S. Supreme Court.

"The president's focused on moving forward on our agenda," spokesman Scott McClellan said. "He doesn't get caught up in the weekly poll numbers."

The numbers have steadily declined in all polls -- at least one put Bush's job approval at 37 percent -- since he was sworn in for a second term in January.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N18609868.htm

In the latest poll, Bush's support appeared to have eroded even among suburban residents, who had been among his strongest backers, falling from 51 percent in last month's poll to 41 percent in the latest survey.

Among urban residents, his approval rating did not budge from 34 percent, and among rural residents it was almost the same, 44 percent versus 45 percent last month.

The sampling error for these and other questions that were broken down among groups was plus or minus 7 percentage points in both polls.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/10/17/poll.bush/

By John F. Harris and Christopher Muste
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, December 21, 2004; Page A04
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14266-2004Dec20.html

Majority disapprove of the handling of Katrina, Iraq
Monday, September 19, 2005; Posted: 8:23 p.m. EDT (00:23 GMT)
...
And support for his management of the war in Iraq has dropped to 32 percent, with 67 percent telling pollsters they disapproved of how Bush is prosecuting the conflict.

The survey had a sampling error of plus or minus 4 percentage points.

Fifty-nine percent said they considered the 2003 invasion of Iraq a mistake. That figure is the highest recorded in a CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll.

Only 39 percent said the invasion of Iraq was the right thing to do. Sixty-three percent said they wanted to see some or all U.S. troops withdrawn from that country.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/19/bush.poll/

So your a Marine? What is your take on the book Jarhead about life in the Marines and do guys in the Marines really refer to each others mouths as "cum receptacles"? I know thats just part of the "breaking you down to build you up" thing of humiliating new soldiers but I do wonder if the under the surface homerotic S&M stuff in the Marines is a cause for the fear of openly gay soldiers serving. In many Islamic countries it's ok for men to kiss on the mouth while in societies that are more open about sexuality, relations between straight men are less physically close since expressions of repressed homsexual feelings are too obvious for others to pick up on.

Even friends of the administration acknowledge that the omens are not good.

William Kristol - a journalist with impeccable White House connections - said: "They expect the worst now."

"I believe that both Libby and Rove will be indicted - not for what the original referral was about but for some combination of disclosing classified information or perhaps failing to be fully candid with federal investigators or with the grand jury."

That would be a very big deal indeed, which is why the famously cool Bush White House is sweating profusely.

Columnist Joe Klein chronicled the chaos caused by the legal and ethical travails of the Clinton administration, and he sees it happening all over again.

"There is a kind of paralysis that has infected everything - their decisions on Iraq, their decisions on Katrina. We have been here before during the Clinton years, and it's kind of shocking to me that we're back with special prosecutors again."

The prosecutor in this case will issue his report any day now. Mr Bush's presidency is already in a mess, and criminal indictments could all but finish it off.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4353070.stm

Semper Fi

As usual, an evil slimeball like yourself can only parrot talking points from demongogues like Limbaugh, Savage and Hannity. Actually, the U.S. military has not for over 50 years done One Fucking Thing to defend our freedom or anybody's freedom! It's responsible for the deaths of millions and millions of people - and constantly supported genocidal regimes and the worst dictatorships on the planet.

It is real patriots like myself, Cindy Sheehan and Michael Newdow that have preserved what little freedom exists in our nation - and those freedoms are declining rapidly because of fascist filth like yourself. The left is the only reason why there ever were civil liberties and rights here is our nation. Don't give me that "the soldiers are over there preserving our freedoms." Those fuckers are killing innocent civilians and brave members of the Iraqi resistance!

If a just, progressive government in our country ever comes to power, scum like yourself should not be allowed to vote or participate in our society until you are educated, made literate and the years of brainwashing by the right wing propagandists are expunged from your brain, that's if you have one.

Overthrow the Bush junta. Put Cheney, Bush and Rove in prison forever!

Semper Fi, "Mr. Democracy"?

As usual, an evil slimeball like yourself can only parrot talking points from demongogues like Limbaugh, Savage and Hannity. Actually, the U.S. military has not for over 50 years done One Fucking Thing to defend our freedom or anybody's freedom! It's responsible for the deaths of millions and millions of people - and constantly supported genocidal regimes and the worst dictatorships on the planet.

It is real patriots like myself, Cindy Sheehan and Michael Newdow that have preserved what little freedom exists in our nation - and those freedoms are declining rapidly because of fascist filth like yourself.

The left is the only reason why there ever were civil liberties and rights here is our nation. Don't give me that "the soldiers are over there preserving our freedoms." Those fuckers are killing innocent civilians and brave members of the Iraqi resistance!

If a just, progressive government in our country ever comes to power, scum like yourself should not be allowed to vote or participate in our society until you are educated, made literate and the years of brainwashing by the right wing propagandists are expunged from your brain, that's if you have one.

Overthrow the Bush junta. Put Cheney, Bush and Rove in prison forever!

Lets see, I should be denied a vote, I should be reeduacted, I am assuming in a concentration camp, and the iraqi resistance that cuts the heads off of people trying to rebuild Iraq are good people. So what is next, should I wear a yellow R (Republican) on my chest so you easily identify who shouldn't vote and who needs to be reeducated?

And why do you always assume conservatives are only repeating what they have heard? Ever thought people just think that way? Well I will sleep better at night knowing you, Cindy, and Michael are protecting my freedom only to deny it later when you come to power and deny me the right to vote until I am reeducated. Would you lik to tell me what colors I should like also? Or how about what kind of woman I like? You are so funny, you are more a fascist than you claim to hate, but you are so worked up in hating America that you don't even see it. What a shame. I tell you what, I will pray fof you that you will someday get a better understanding as to what is right and what is wrong.

Until then, just take my word for it, my fellow Marines are fighting on your behalf to protect your rights and freedoms.

Semper Fi

" my fellow Marines are fighting on your behalf to protect your rights and freedoms."

Do any actual marines really believe that? You are fighting because you couldnt get a real job and were forced to join and now are trying to put that fact in the best light. Dont give me the bunk about the Marines being selected as the best of those who can serve. One of my relatives who was living off his girlfriend just joined because his parents figured it was either that or jail the Marines not only accepted him but seemed to be almost stalking him (with daily phone checkins to make sure they knew where he was) in the weeks between the time he signed the papers and showed up at boot camp.I guess he thinks he can get trained in something and get a job when he gets back. I;'ve known a few people who used to be in the military who used their service overseas to get contacts and run small amounts of drugs but I cant really think of much else that one can transfer from ones time in the service to civlian life.

The armed forces dont preserve freedom any more than the IRS does or the Post Office does. You can go on and on about how you risk your life for my freedom but I cant see anything you do that relates to freedom back here; NFL players may risk their lives out on the field but if they claimed they were risking their lives for Americas freedom I think they would get laughed at just as you should be laughed at. When was the last time anything the military did anything really classified as "national defense"? Did the military catch Bin Laden after 9/11, prevent or catch those behind the anthrax atacks... Iraq has acted as a recruitment engine for Al Qaeda more than anything else... WWII did stop the Nazis and they could have threatened Americas freedom if they hadnt been defeated so I guess thats probably the last time there was any connection between Americas freedom and the armed forces.

In terms of the armed forces today I guess I can think of one case where an argument could be made that Iraq protects our freedom. Many of the people who end up in the military will probably end up as violent criminals when they come back here so between the rapes and murders you guys will likely commit (with people like McVey and the Washington sniper as the more extreme examples in the past decade) keeping US forces in Iraq does sortof protect our freedoms here by forcing the Iraqis to have to deal with you guys rather than us having to live with you. But truth be told I dont really find that a convincing argument for me personally since you guys usually end up in small-right wing communities so the only real threat is to other right-wingers and most of us in solid left-wing areas will never have to deal with the mess the war will leave behind. I guess our taxes will have to pay to support you, but Bush seems to be doing a good job slashing veterans benefits and other social welfare programs so ...

"I am assuming in a concentration camp,"

Preferrably one at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba..... in a butt pyramid, ideally. On a leash with undies on ya head.....

To be fair, it is nicer than what yer Marine buddies are doing to people in secret prisons in Iraq, Afghanistan and god knows where else.

But we revolutionaries are a compassionate people.

Dear Mr. Democracy,

I won't get into name calling and derogatory statements against those who are fighting or supporting the war because that's not constructive to the dialogue.What is constructive is telling you that your perceptions of the world all messed up. You've had a major brainwashing by our schools, our media, and our parents. There is no democracy to protect -- not over there in Iraq or here in America. At least the last two elections have been rigged in favor of Herr Bush, but America's elites have been rigging elections probably from the beginning of this nation's history. In Iraq, the purple fingers are for public relations and propaganda purposes, and the Iraqis know this.

As far as terrorism, you need to look no further than your own government as the prime instigator and implementor of terrorist actions. Anybody who seriously looks into 9/11 will see that it is a classic false flag operation. This is when a State commits an act of terror and then blames it on another in order to find a pretext to invade their country or take away someone's (ours currently) civil rights. Look up WTC7.net. Osama didn't do this, neither did Saddam. Uncle Sam did this one. It's a hard pill to swallow but it's the truth.

Mr. Democracy, you don't have a clue what you're talking about. You're hopelessly ill-informed, it's apparent you've never thought out anything in your life, and you're an avid apologist for Bush's wave of serial killing in Iraq. You're a real live fascist, an apologist for the imperial agenda that merges corporate power and political power.

Filth like yourself is much, much worse than the Germans under Hitler. You have access to the internet, alternative media and people that have actually studied these issues and have the ability to make a decision, yet you persist in denying the truth. That's why I say that until you are educated on reality and are de-programmed, you don't have the intellectual ability to make a rational, intelligent decision like voting or anything else. You are the true America hater, the neo-con scum that does everything they can to destroy the American Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Why don't you go read a book about imperialism - or if you can't read, like I suspect, go take a literacy course? Then you might intelligently comment rather than coming across as ignorant fool mired in a mass of genocidal lies.

And yes, as a marine, you are a hired Serial Killer, the front line of the U.S corporate agen

Why do YOU hate America? Why don't you shut up and learn something from people that know something about U.S. imperialism like courageous folks like Cindy Sheehan?

I've done well in my challenge- how about you, with yours?

I did not know that Casey Sheehan was a mercenary serial killer for the Bush cause. You better tell Cindy. Tell all the other soldiers and their family members that they are mean nothing to you. All the crosses you plant are just a tool, not a sign of remembrance or caring.

I have talked to many people about the war in Iraq after my service there. But none have been as spiteful as the people here.

Clue by 4:
We're not the cross-planting crowd.

We love Sheehan, but our critique goes much farther. She doesn't agree with everything we think either. And that's okay.

You, on the other hand. Take you. You want the left to be all one thing (liberal=hippie=communist), because soldiers reduce things so they can kill without conscience. It's a habit that sticks long after the shooting's "done." That's why we tease you about being, well, a bit reductionist (that means something like stupid....)

But reality's not like that. It's not. It's only like that in hard-right-land. Reality is much more nuanced (that means something like complicated...)

You should go back there. Maybe get some help for your gambling issues.

Look at it this way. Your spammish behavior here? It's only making us smarter.

What are you refering to my boorish antagonist? Thanks for making things clear to me. I am getting a better picture of you.

You think of yourself as progressive, a forward thinker, and believe that if we all just did as you wanted, the world would be a better place. All those people that are not"fellow travelers", well you have a special place for them don't you

"Everyone I have talked to has been over there, and in some cases for almost two years, they tell me the people love them and want them there. They tell me they are happy to return to help the people of Iraq. And they tell me about the crimes committed against the people by outside islamic attackers. They wish them to go. But they are greatful to be liberated."

I would bet an Iraqi who didnt want the American soldiers in Iraq would NOT express themselves to a soldier holding an M16.

Surprisingly, people do tell you things you don't want to hear. Armed or unarmed. The main motivator for holding back opinion is to curry favor. Having worked in Afghanistan, Iraq, Egypt and Israel, few ever say what they truly think. Only what they believe you want to hear. I heard lots of "We love Bush" in both places from people thought that's what I wanted to hear. No sense in telling them the only bush I like looks like a landing strip.

I have kept my end of the bargain as well. I am going for the whole week. I am curious to know your feelings in Iraq considering your position on other Countries in the Middle East.

As for the rest of you that think the Marine Corps is a place for jobless brain dead citizens I of course disagree. America's brightest and bravest are joining, because they are able to comprehend the threats to this Country and know that now is the time to act.

As far as someones comment about terrorists never striking liberal areas so you are safe, I would not consider New York liberal. Remember, the Golden Gate was a target, and LAX was a target as well. In fact, at LAX someone open fired at a ticket counter for an Israel Airline. Again, another brave attack I guess you would say. I would say the work of savages and cowards.

You must remember, even when we attack we do all we can to prevent civilian casualties. When the muslim extremists attack they do all the can to avoid military targets and go after women and children. You might think that is honorable but to me it just shows what chickens they are.

And again, I just want you to know, me and all my college educated Marine brothers still support your right to shoot your mouth off, even if you are completely uninformed and willing to ignore the facts. We are all proud Americans and your decent and the majoirties embrace of it shows the world what a true democracy we are.

I still love how you love the constitution and bill of rights but you don't like the idea of certain people having the right to vote. What next, you going to try and reinstitute Jim Crow laws.

Sorry. I can't justify, under any circumstances, what is going on in Iraq now. Its not worth having our boys fighting and dying. Its not worth having the Iraqis fighting and dying, either.
If the US were truly the moral compass of the world, we wouldn't be focusing on Iraq and ignoring the very real atrocities in the Sudan and in China/Tibet. This feels like a vendetta to me. (but look, I managed to type all that without saying a single negative thing about ....your.... commander in chief.) We've entered an era when multinational companies have higher net worth than most countries, and - at the risk of sounding like most of the people that despise me on Indy Bay, I think there are forces moving behind the scenes that we know very little about. Iraq is not the clump of desert that I would chose to die for.

Tia

At risk of moving this thread in a direction it probably shouldnt...there is way too much arguing about Israel on here already....You probably dont disagree as much as you think with those you argue with. From what I can tell the people yelling at each other about Israel largely agree as to what needs to take place and most of the arguing is about moral judgements on the past, and feelings about symbols and words almost completely unrelated to real Palestinians and real Israelis.

Obviously, no one read my response above.

Let me clearer -- 9/11 is an INSIDE JOB!

There absolutely is no reasons to fight and die for these liars. The people at home who are aware of this and are doing something to educate others are the true freedom fighters, not those those brainwashed stormtroopers fighting for Bechtel, Lockheed Martin and Halliburton.

You Wrote:
"Second, both Indians in America and Colonists did horrible things to each other, the indians were brutalizing each other long before we got here, but that is no excuse. As far as us on their land, well we conquired the Indians and the land is now the USA. Lets face it, the Indians today are much better off living in a civilized world than when we discovered them."

Your ignorance astounds me. When is the last time you have been on a reservation? Try Pine Ridge Reservation, which happens to be one of the most poverty stricken ones in the US. Oh yeah. Let's thank the great white father for "civilizing" us poor "savages".
It's funny how people say "indians weren't doing so great" before the Euro's came. It amazes me to no end. When my ancestors had land of their own, homes, plenty of food to hunt, had their own language and system of learning, and had peace. You came in and took all of this away and destabilized their means of supporting themselves. You tore families apart. You took away land and assigned them a different piece of shit land to live on and told us all to just deal. Land which had nothing rich within its earth to grow things on. You made us dependent upon the great white father for our food. Killing all of our buffalo killed our families.
Did you ever stop to think that maybe we WERE civilized in OUR way and we didn't WANT or NEED YOUR kind of civilization?
And of course tribes fought each other. We fought for food and our territory. We also had tribes we traded with and did not war with. But that was OUR business until you euros stepped in and decided to make it yours.
What you euros have done in the middle east is much the same of what you did to the native americans. I bet they tell those who speak a different tongue over there they better start speaking english.
You can lay out all the bullshit you want to, but when it comes down to it Bush is just as much of a lying murderous criminal as Saddam was. I'd LOVE to see someone arrest Bush and put HIM on trial for his crimes of war.
Before you go talking about the First nations peoples you need a serious history lesson. Our people today struggle like hell thanks to the shit your ancestors did.
And your people never learn your lessons. You never learned it with the genocide of Indians, what hitler did to the jews, vietnam, and so on. You people are so fucked in the head over money and power you will DIE in bathed in their OIL.
At least my people will die with honor from starvation or sickness. Oh and tell your wasichu recruits to stay the HELL off of our reservations. Fuck them, we don't want YOUR war.
Josephine Lame Deer

Email address or website?

As far inside job, come on. If you want to argue we don't belong in Iraq, I can respect that, it is a disagreement over the way we are rsponding to the new threat of global terrorism. I can see valid points for and against actions in Iraq, Sudan, N.Korea, Syria, Iran and Afghanistan.

But to say it is an inside job is like saying there was more than one JFK assasin or there are UFOs at area 51. Come on, stop smoking that dope.

"You probably dont disagree as much as you think with those you argue with."

You know, its scary, but I've always suspected that. Thats why I'm here and not on littlegreenfootballs. The difference- some of these people are evil- truly evil- and they are pushing a racist agenda that they cloak in "progressive-speak". Its easy to see who those are, isn't it?

But I also don't believe that history is a linear force- thesis antithesis synthesis- I think these periods of time when we have to fight to preserve our freedom will hearld a time of new and greater freedoms. Remember- the price of freedom is eternal vigilence.

And I do respect my brothers who are making the ultimate sacrifice for their country. I just hope we are worth it.

It isn't that nobody respects the Indians. They have a lot of things about their culture that they are rspected and admired for. In fact, nobody I know has any problems with Indians. They are all Americans.

But don't tell me they were some peace loving people that were over run by the white man. That is not true, they fought with each other, they did barbaric things to each other (in the name of honor) and unfortunately for them they met a foe that was able to defeat them.

We are now all Americans and they are equal to everyone else. So I do not see what the problem is. As far as reservations go, nobody is keeping them on that land. If they do not like it, they can leave, go to college on one of many federal or state programs and get a great job.

It seems to me, that those that complain about how messed up things are, are the ones that are to lazy or unwilling to do things. It is not America's fought if Alcholism is a big problem for Indians.

And lets not forget that Indians are now making money hand over fist all over this country in the form of Indian Casinos. So don't tell me how messed up things are for them.

And I still do not see how anyone can compare George W. to Saddam.

One of the posts from eagle scout is not me, Mr. Democracy. So I don't want anyone confused. From now on all my posts will end with Mr. Democracy.

So, to recap for "no volvo" I have continued to honor the bet. And I am glad you are do the same. We might even swing you over to our side some day.

Mr. Democracy

"...or might we have you swing over to our side, one day? ", she asked, earnestly.

If this is the person I made a bet with, give me an email address or a website. We need to keep in touch so we know how we did at the end of the week.

I think I will make it all week - No starbucks for me

Have you read One Bullet Away: The Making of a Marine Officer by Nathaniel Fick ?

After finding out that his son was going into the Marines after graduating from Dartmouth, his father told him, "The Marines will teach you everything I love you too much to teach you."

Sorry- too much animosity towards me at Indybay to disclose any personal contact info. I'll be "around", though. Even if I'm not posting, I'm reading. Or my comrades at the worldwide Zionist/free-mason conspiracy are, and they will let me know.

Yeah, you are part of a conspiracy, I am part of a conspiracy, we are all part of the greater conspiracy. This is like the rant and rave section of craigslist. Ever been there?

I heard it was a great book by the way, never got around to reading it.

You are seriously lacking in the reading comprehension skills aren't you? I already said we fought with other tribes for territory and food. We didn't fight with all nations though, we were friends with most and traded fairly. Of course killing is barbaric. But we honored OUR kills. You Euros killed over religion, control, power, and money. All the way back to your ancestors up to now you people do this and you bring down the world with you.
These people who protest this bullshit lie of a war know just what the hell is going on. They know their leader is an idiot.
There's no honor in this. There's no freedom in a puppet government set up to rule others in the whitey way.

Your idiot leader is a criminal and a murderer just like Saddam. He allowed sodomy, sexual abuse, and torture to take place in those prisons. And you are going to tell me that Indians were barbaric?? Your "leader of the free world" deserves to be brought under arrest and put on trial for all of his lies surrounding 9/11 and henceforth. Read the PNAC, read the Downing Street Memos. Read how they wanted a New World Order. You're a damned idiot if you think your leader is sane up there in the membrane. He's as much of a crazed zealot as Harriet Miers is. Remember how he said "God told him to go to war." ?

If you love your precious great white father so much, why don't you get to your recruiting office today and sign up to go kill all of those innocent people? They are taking them up to 42 years old this month. You see they raised the bar because they can't get enough young people in there to do their dirty work.
If you so strongly support your whitey in the white house get on out to the middle east and let someone else who wants out come home to their family.
You and anyone else that supports this war will die with blood on their hands as if you yourself shot and killed innocents too.

Oh and by the by check your news. Looks like your idiot great white father screwed up by giving Rove a tongue lashing over his leaking a CIA agent a couple of years ago. Oh boy!

Wake up and smell the bullshit!

Listen Chief, stop being a poor sport. The fact is most of the tribes were nomadic anyway. And like I said, you and your people have been more than compensated. Actually, more than any other group. It is not my fault or the fault of anyone else if people do not take advantage of the tons of programs offered by the Federal Govt.

As far as the military goes, I spent six years in the Marine Corps during the first Gulf War, so I have no problem serving my Country and going to war. If the Marines need me, you can count on it that I will be there. What you failed to mention is even though the recruiting numbers are down the reenlistment numbers are through the roof. Thats right, people that are fighting this war are reenlisting, why would that be? Because they know what they are fighting for, even if you don't know what you are against.

So take a hit on your peace pipe and relax.

I'm a dumb jarhead and I'm brainwashed. I just believe everything I'm told and don't think for myself. My country right or wrong. Duh.

America will always be my country right or wrong, as it should be your country. Remember a lot of people have died just to try and make it to this Country, you should keep that in mind. A little more respect for the Greatest Country wouldn't hurt.

I am thinking circles around you right now my friend.

America will always be my country right or wrong, as it should be your country. Remember a lot of people have died just to try and make it to this Country, you should keep that in mind. A little more respect for the Greatest Country wouldn't hurt.

I am thinking circles around you right now my friend.

I am thinking circles around myself right now. I am afraid to criticize my country because I am a dumb, brainwashed jarhead. Someone help me escape this idiocy. Please, I do not no any better--I am an unthinking sheep.

The truth is out there. Saddam is on trial. Iraq voted. US safer. Libya following Iraqi Invasion caved in and relations are beginning to improve. Afghanistan, no longer stuck with a government that subscribes to some barbaric religion as the basis for law. Women rights, freedom, democracy breaking out all over. We are talking about the seeds of liberty that will be sprouting for years.

These are the legacies of this administration and the world has no one to thank but Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, and our Armed Forces. I don't know how clear it can be.

And for those of you who want a withdraw date from Iraq for our troops, remember this is a war, did we demand a withdrawal date from Roosevelt or Truman, of course not. The war will be over when the foe is vanquished, which looks to be coming soon, but non the less, we are in it to win it, at least the Bush administration is, and thank god for them. Anything less would be a disservice to the victims of 9/11 and all service men that have fought and served this country so honorably.

So say and think what you want, the voters have spoken, not once but twice and they will speak again in 06 and 08.

If I was depending on you for a source of info, and that last posting, I would think that Iraq and Afghanistan are beds of roses, safe, free places where everyone is dancing in the tulips (or opium poppies?). Luckily, that is not the case. I read--and I read vigorously--many sources--mainstream, alternative, even right-wing looney press---and I know that it is a fucking mess over there. I also know that the ends do knot justify the means. If there is ever a real democratic and safe country in Iraq, it will be in spite of the Bush admin.--not because of. And it will be heavily Islamic--probably aligned with Iran. Not the rosy pic Bush and his buffoons preferred. But wait, why were we over there? Oh yeah, the 'liberation'/democracy thing only was injected as time went on--rarely referred to in the beginning.

The editor of Haqooq-i-Zan, an Afghan women's rights magazine, has been arrested. Ali Mohaqia Nasab is accused of publishing un-Islamic articles, a violation of Afghanistan's 2004 law regulating the media.
http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/10/1774354.php

On Tuesday, the names of the winners in two northern provinces were published. They included a former Taliban governor who ignored international protests and oversaw the destruction of two massive 1,500-year-old Buddha statues in 2001 during the fundamentalist regime's reign.

Among the provisional winners from Kabul was Abdul Rasul Sayyaf, a powerful militia leader accused of war crimes by New York-based Human Rights Watch, which alleged that his fighters killed civilians, raped women and plundered at will during Afghanistan's civil war.

http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/10/1776077.php

KABUL: Yes, Afghanistan: the forgotten war and stepping-stone for a lame excuse to go to war in Iraq. Nearly 20,000 U.S. troops are still fighting along the Pakistan border against the Taliban, al-Qaida and others. But to really understand Afghanistan, we must look past the immediate presence of the United States toward the importance of the opium trade.

Afghanistan provides 87 percent of the world's opium. From its opium poppies, Afghanistan provided 4,000 tons of opium, which would eventually be converted to 400 tons of illegal heroin last year. Half of Afghanistan's gross national product is connected to the opium trade. The drugpins are far more powerful than the Afghan government, despite the fact that President Hamid Karzai outlawed the opium trade three years ago.

As it stands now, Afghanistan is a country with a shattered infrastructure, without a real weight from the rule of law and is facing a lack of security. The vast poppy fields, which undermine the legitimacy of public officials, are the most tangible evidence of this. It's estimated that 90 percent of police chiefs in Afghanistan are directly involved with drugs or are protecting those involved, according to a report by CBS's Steve Kroft. Much of the money made from the sale of opium does not benefit the majority of Afghans and tends to further violent movement by, for example, allowing them to purchase weapons.

http://paktribune.com/news/index.php?id=123025

I was talking with Lady Liberty last night in bed and we could not comprehend what this Country has done to people like you to make you hate America so much. Then we thought, if you do hate it so much, why not move to Cuba or some other commie paradise so you can enjoy your life and not be stuck in a place where you are the smallest of minorities. For your own sake, you might be better off doing something like that. All that hatred isn't good for your health.

Notice the guaranteed dfault: "why do you hate america?" blahblahblah. So predictable. What about the fact that all your baseless assertions were dissolved ?
The idea of a democratic society is dependent upon people who dare to be critical--in fact, historically any progress that has been made comes from us--not the blind "My country right or wrong" sheep.

I think the guy who first said "My Country Rigth or Wrong" helped form this country if my history is correct. As for debate and disagreement I couldn't agree more, that is what makes this Country so far superior to many others, our tolerance of other opinions. That is what all those service men are fighting for now, to protect our right to disagree.

It is you and your kind that wish to turn this country over to the Islamic extremists who would deny women all rights, prohibit photography and all other technologies, deny homosexuals the right to live, and basically return the world back to the stone age (come on how can you defend such backward savages). But who knows, maybe this would make the enviromentalists and indians in this country happy. You think I am kidding, but that is what is at stake, these Arab extremisits want to do just that, and they want to kill all non believers in the process. So you better wake up and realize what is at stake.

So is this my country right or wrong, you are damn right it is. Could it be better or improved in certain areas, of course, and you know what, those who are critical of this country will not be executed or tortured for suggesting such a thing. So like I said, try and be happy with what you have and if you really don't like it here, this country actually allows free travel, so you can easily leave.

Mr. Autocracy

You are so stupid, ignorant and in such an advanced state of denial that it's hard to believe that you are real. My cat has a higher awareness of political reality than you do.

"It is you and your kind that wish to turn this country over to the Islamic extremists who would deny women all rights, prohibit photography and all other technologies, deny homosexuals the right to live, and basically return the world back to the stone age (come on how can you defend such backward savages)."

This statement shows your absoute ignorance of reality. You should take some time out from this board and become literate and maybe read a book or two.

It was motherfucking evil right wing killers like yourself, Poppy Bush, Ronald Reagan, Ollie North and Donald Rumsfeld that nurtured and supported Osama Bin Laden, the Taliban and right wing Islamic fundamentalism. There are hundreds of books that detail how the CIA encouraged and developed Islamic terrorism in its present day form to fight the illegal U.S. covert war in Afghanistan.

Look in the mirror, asshole, and you will see the true face of terrorism! You are a terrorist, you are a killer, and you are worse than the scum that supported Hitler's rise to power.

The blood of millions of people is on your hands and the filthy scum war criminals that you support. People like you are the lowest life forms on the planet and should be in jail forever for war crimes!

No Starbucks wrote:

"As far inside job, come on. If you want to argue we don't belong in Iraq, I can respect that, it is a disagreement over the way we are rsponding to the new threat of global terrorism. I can see valid points for and against actions in Iraq, Sudan, N.Korea, Syria, Iran and Afghanistan.

But to say it is an inside job is like saying there was more than one JFK assasin or there are UFOs at area 51. Come on, stop smoking that dope."

No dope here. I am completely clear headed and well read. I took two years off and just read about 911 and the American foriegn policy and understand pretty well how rogue elements within our intelligence communities work. Have you?

As for the proof, I would suggest reading Paul Thompson's 911 timeline at globalresearch.ca. Also, Michael Rubbert's "Crossing the Rubicon" is one of the best books on the subject. And, let's not forget David Ray Griffin's "The New Pearl Harbor" and "Omissions and Distortions". There are also many websites that dedicate the pages to educating the public on this issue. One of the best is: whatreallyhappened.com, wtc7.net, 911truth.org and globalresearch.ca.

The point is, al CIAduh is another manufactured boogieman that the military industrial complex needs to fullfil its foreign and domestic policy agendas. They know that there is going to be a mad dash for the last remaining oil on the planet, and the tyrant with the most, wins!

Also, any dummy knows that Oswald was a patsy. He even said so himself. Kennedy's assasination with a black ops by insiders in our own government. I don't need to be stoned to figure that one out.

Of couse we supported Osama in Afghanistan, he was helping to throw the Russians out. It was in our vital national interest to stop the spread of communism and it was also to help a soviergn nation that had been invaded. So of course we would help them.

We also supported Stalin against Hitler, we supported Saddam against Iran, you do what you have to for the benefit of your Country. The thing to remember is we supported Osama as a freedom fighter against an invading force, wouldn't you help someone that has been invaded by a ruthless country? Of couse you would.

We can not be held responsible for him going crazy and wanting to killing all westerners. But know that he has gone down that path, we will deal with him.

The "enemy of my enemy is my friend" is an Arab proverb. Besides that, it's not just that we supported Bin Laden, you missed the key factor--the US supported him and then fucked him and left him when using him didn't suit us. I think anybody might be pissed when they are betrayed...

Been reading up on this. Funny since I now live about 5 miles from Tarnak Farms.
I don't see dark evil forces plotting our doom, only people that make mistakes. That these mistakes cost lives is sad. That the people here seem to embrace anything or anyone that opposes what might be considered normal, or common is kind of frightening. Maya can take 2 years off to read up on 9/11. How? Who paid your way?

I had a good job, saved up and when I got laidoff I took the time off. I would highly recommend it.

Why do you think an inside job is really out there? Don't you know about the Tonkin Gulf incident? -- a false flag job that got America deep into the Vietnam war. What about the Riechstag fire?, another false flag job by the Nazis that was used as an pretext to invade Poland. And then there's Operation Northwoods, where the U.S. Army Joint Chiefs of Staff created all these potential false flag senerios in order to invade Cuba. All of the them signed off on it, but president Kennedy thought they lost their marbles and reined them in.

Also, remember George Bush Senior talking about the babies being thrown out of the incubators in Kuwait by Iraqi soldiers. This was all completely manufactured by a PR firm in New York and Kuwaiti royalty to get the American people to support the first Gulf War slaughter. These aren't UFO conspiracys. There very real.

Speaking of which, click here:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/10/1776597_comment.php#1776722

Mr. Scumocracy or whatever you are. I have some suggestions for you that will make the world a better place.

1. Clean off the grass stains, asphalt bits and dog poop on your knuckles.

2. Take a literacy course and turn off the right talk radio shows.

3. After taking the course, read a book, preferably something by Chomsky, Zinn or some left writer, but the whole key is to read and become informed of something other than braindead right wing propaganda points.

4. While you're becoming literate (if that's possible) and after you have read your first book ever, take down the Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter, G.W. Bush and Adolf Hitler posters on the wall in your room.

5. Throw away the Klan hood, the Nazi arm bands and the "W" t-shirts and put on some real clothes.

6. Acquire a real code of morals, unlike the genocidal death state imperialist serial killer morals that you embrace now.

7. Write a public apology on this board and others for being a pawn of a "government" of criminals and killers under the Bush administration.

8. Stop contributing to the Pat Robertson Hugo Chavez assassination fund. You call yourself Mr. Democracy, but knuckle dragger neo con men like yourself support only the abolition of real democracy in countries where it actually exists like Venezuela.

9. Stop stooping low to the ground and evolve into an actual human being that thinks critically rather than being a puppet of the Bush-Cheney death cult.

10. If all of these measures to fail to make you into a decent, progressive, thinking, moral person, then go reenlist for a Marine tour in Iraq and become a stupid and willing target for Iraqi resistance bullets!

They say leftists don't have a plan, but as you can see here I have a very viable plan for you to become a thoughtful, good human being rather than the right wing waste of human DNA that you are now! I believe in redemption and transformation of evil right wingers into real patriots and revolutionaries like myself, so here's your chance to become a real practicioner of democracy, not the Bushite form of Death State Autocracy that you willingly serve now!

I don't see how you can call me a nazi, you were the one that wanted me sent to "reeducation camps" and you wanted to deny me the right to vote because you don't agree with my politics. I think if anyone should be putting away there kkk outfit it is you. You want to treat me like the racists of the past treated blacks, deny me the right to vote and my opinion doesn't mean anything because you disagree. And lets face it and you are the one that obvisously hates the jewish people. So put your hood away, and join me in supporting democracy for all and a secure Israel, it is really the only free country in the Middle East.

As for your left thinkers, I was just watching a show on Stalin, boy he must be a real inspiration, killed millions because he didn't like how they thought. That is some idol. I think before you start pushing left thinkers you need to understand what they really advocated.

And to call terrorists, resistance fighters is a little insulting to resistance fighters around the world. Remember the Contra's now those were resistance fighters. Remember them, they were part of the successful Cold War which we one. They actually fought against soldiers.

Blowing up women and children and assasinating teachers, that is what is being done in Iraq. I don't think that counts as resistance, that is called terrorism and is the same cowardly kind of things we have come to expect from those "brave" muslim extremists you seem to love so much. I think only you would call them resistance fighters. I have a better suggestion for you, if you love these animals so much, go join them. Again, no one is stopping you from leaving this country you seem to hate so much.

Then you can see how good the US Marine Corps really is, first hand.

Occupation breeds hate

Ignorance breeds prejudice. The bumper sticker level sloganeering doesn't explain all the Arab teror attacks before any "occupation".

The Jews have always been defending themselves. They have never been the agressor. Even when they struck first, it was only as a result of threatened invasion.

So lets remember, it is the Jews that have tried to find peace in the middle east and in return they get suicide bombers from the arabs.

From the "Hamas " charter:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."



Mahmoud A-Zahhar, the leader of Hamas in the Gaza Strip, said last month in an interview:

Q: If Israel withdraws from all the areas occupied after 1967, will this be the end of the resistance?
A-Z: First of all we already agreed with the Palestinian factions on this plan. On the basis of this plan we can establish a state, after which we would engage in a long hudna (calm agreement), which would last for years.
Q: What is the final goal of Hamas?
A-Z: If you ask any Palestinian or Muslim, wherever he lives - in America or in Britain or in Indonesia - he would tell you that according to the religious point of view, this land is part of the Arab and Muslim nations. This means that there is no other option but to reunify this land once again.
Q: What is 'this land' that you are talking about? Are you talking about the whole of Israel?
A-Z: First of all this Palestinian land, and all the Arabic nation, is all part of the same area. In the past, there was no independent Palestinian state; there was no independent Jordanian state; and so on. There were regions called Iraq or Egypt, but they were all part of one country....Our main goal is to establish a great Islamic state, be it pan-Arabic or pan-Islamic.

Carlos Latuff has a deep hatred for a lot of people and lives comfortably in Brazil. You know, the largest South American nation with the largest divide between have and have nots. Carlos has a real hard on for America and Israel.

Maya, did it ever occur to you that Bush made a stupid mistake and does not want to or can't think of a way to get out of it? Not a fan of his, but don't believe in "Men In Black".

Good art!
http://www.infoshop.org/graphics/latuff/doublestandard.gif

Hmm--typical

n the first nine months of 2005 more Palestinians were killed by other Palestinians than by Israelis--219 to 218, according to the Palestinian Authority`s Ministry of Interior, although the former figure is probably in truth much higher. In the Gaza Strip, the departure of Israeli troops and settlers has brought anarchy, not freedom. Members of Hamas routinely fight gun battles with members of Fatah, Mahmoud Abbas`s ruling political party. Just as often, the killing takes place between clans, or hamullas. So-called collaborators are put to the gun by street mobs, their "guilt" sometimes nothing more than being the object of a neighbor`s spite. Palestinian social outsiders are also at mortal risk: Honor killings of "loose" women are common, as is the torture and murder of homosexuals.

You mean a child of privelege that finds it easier to attack shortcomings in other countries than the issues at home? OK, I'm a basher. None of the issues he chooses are easy, one line answers. Unless your answer is to slaughter one side in the mentioned disputes, then it's all so easy.
For some.

Mr. Scumocracy

I know "yer not into book larnin'," but you really do need to take a literacy course. How can you again and again, like a mindless genocidal robot, repeat right wing disinformation on this site, with obviously not one single fact to back up your statements? Have you ever read a book other than Mein Kampf? Have you ever uttered an original idea, thought an original thought?

Glad to return after being away for a few days, had to do the bidding of Corporate America. To respond to the question about original thought, I would argue that my ideas on this page represent a different perspective than the majority of those on here. I am swimming against the current so to speak, so I would argue that my thought is truly independent and not that of the masses (again refering to this site). So keep spouting off about being an independent thinker when all you are doing is repeating what has already been said by so many. Try not to be afraid of those that disagree with you and try and learn something from others. It is the American way.

"The only antidote to dangerous ideas is strong alternatives vigorously advocated."
Lawrence Summers
Harvard University

Don't let them shout you down.
Tia.

(BTW, I lost)

They will never silence Mr. Democracy. Besides the right to freely debate ideas was one of the reasons why I served in the Marines and why my brothers are still serving. So don't worry, I will never let them silence me.

As far as the bet goes, don't worry, Bush made me upset also, that nominee to the Supreme Court was so liberal. I don't understand why he doesn't just put in a really conservative woman that is willing to uphold the Constitution. Oh well, I can dare to dream I guess.

Mr. Democracy

Where is your evidence that Miers the evangelical basket case was "liberal"???
Please use links/souces.

"Besides the right to freely debate ideas was one of the reasons why I served in the Marines and why my brothers are still serving."

Dude, I keep asking you to take you a literacy course and to read your first-ever book before making posts on this board that make you like a totally brain-dead Bozo of Darkness!

The right to freely debate ideas has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the war in Iraq. The war is all about U.S. conquest of Middle East oil resources and furthering the goals of the Project for a New American Century. If you actually read a book or two you might actually learn the real reasons why the Bush regime prosecuted the Iraq war.

A fool like you differs little from the Hitler Youth that were brain washed into becoming cannon fodder in the final days of Hitler's Germany. The only difference is that people like you are much worse because you have a plethora of websites (like this one), books and magazines that can educate you on what's really going on in the world, yet you remain in denial of the truth. Like the "good Germans" that allowed Jews, Gypsies, communists, labor leaders and gays to be massacred in the death camps, you and your fellow Bush-ites refuse to acknowledge what is going on before your very eyes.

Democracy is not about trust; it is about distrust. It is about accountability, exposure, open debate, critical challenge, and popular input and feedback from the citizenry. It is about responsible government. We have to get our fellow Americans to trust their leaders less and themselves more, trust their own questions and suspicions, and their own desire to know what is going on.