9/11 = Inside Job! Contingent at San Francisco Anti-War Rally

Carol, I was very encourage to hear so many people who are now turning on to 9/11 truth. I must have talked with five people scattered throughout the rally who knew about building 7 and the simultaneous, parallel drills that were happening on 911 -- issues that the 9/11 commission and the media just ignored.

Maybe the evil powers that be are just hoping that, like the proverbial tree falling in a forest, if nobody heard about WTC building 7, than maybe it never really happened. Hah, except we have video proof! Winston, try and burn this buddy!

Anyway, thanks for all your tireless help Carol, and that goes to the other members of 9/11 truth who are working so hard to spread the truth! You're doing a great job!

Really, conspiracy nuts are tiresome.

is not a rebuttal.

You can't reason with someone who makes things up and is uninterested in listening to anything that doesn't support their preconceived ideas. You can introduce these people to everyone whose family memebers were killed at the Pentagon and they'll still tell you it didn't happen. Right, there's thousands of people in on a secret conspiracy, this from the government that can't even keep the identity of one CIA agent secret.

I can say "We're all controlled by giant space Aliens in a ship that hinds behind the sun", why don't you conspiracy buffs prove me wrong.

"Casual" thinker -- well, why don't you enlighten us on why WTC building 7 fell down? Why did FEMA spend millions of dollars and many months trying to explain why the building fell and yet they still have not come up with anything conclusive or plausible; and after you do that, please explain to us why the building's owner, Larry Silverstein (who made tens of millions off of the insurance claims on the buildings) said on a PBS broadcast called "America Rebuilds" that he and the NYFD decided to "pull" the building? To "pull" is demolishion speak for demolishing a building. Both stories do not mesh or make sense. (see wtc7.net for more info)

Also, nobody is saying the no one got hurt in the Pentagon. The 9/11 truth community has never denied that anyone got killed in the building. We acknowledge that 100%. Get your facts straight.

A) you're a right-wing asshole, so why are you even here? Did Free Republic's servers go down?

B) if you hate conspiracy theories so much, why doesn't the OFFICIAL conspiracy theory also bother you? Bush et al have never revealed their "proof," you know. This is the same bunch that lied through their teeth to get us into Iraq. Of course you don't believe that either, do you? Oh, and the 9-11 Omission Commission didn't open the 'who did it' question to re-examination either, so therefore it's never been addressed by anyone but the Bush book-cooker team, who of course don't want us to see their books.

What I find tiresome is these wallet-fondling wankers who are too fucking chicken to even consider the POSSIBILITY that maybe there's more to this than meets the eye. "Oh no no no, our government couldn't possibly be that ruthlessly criminal because if it could be my whole complacent goo-goo baby worldview would go boom-boom, so therefore it can't be, so there." You have to be a really contemptible piece of shit to be this afraid of an IDEA

Hey Carol: You GO girl!!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

(snip)

The proposal's existence was often dismissed as unfounded conspiracy theory until the draft memorandum was declassified in recent years through a Freedom of Information Act request by the National Security Archive.

(snip)

No, you're an asshole. I'm not a right winger, dickhead. If the left wasn't dogmatic sheep like yourself maybe they could win an election. Yes, Bush lied about WMD's, got the US into an uneccessary war, and is wasting billions of dollars and thousands of lives. If you could focus on that instead ofyour fantasies about CIA/Mossad eavesdropping on your e-mail and faking plane crashes then you could accomplish something. I love the conspiracy "experts", like David Griffin the theologian explaining structural engineering to us.

The bodies hadn't even been recovered from the London bombings when I heard on KPFA people saying "It was the Mossad!" "The Israelis were warned!" It's crap like that that makes no one take the left seriously. Oh, and fuck you.

Aha, but: the Bush Admimistration had advance warning that terror attacks of 9/11 nature were imminent and did nothing to prevent them. They CHOSE to ignore the warnings of the CIA. Why, we'll probably never know for sure. However, I can argue that their deliberate ignorance and lack of vigilance caused the deaths of all those people as much as the hijackers themselves. Going even further back, many in the current and then administrations were also in the Reagan administration, ensuring arming and training of radical factions in the Middle East and Central Asia. That the actions of American foreign policy caused "blowback" in the form of terrorist attacks on US soil and the Bushies ignored the warnings of such an action form a pattern of circumstantial evidence, not a direct causational chain. In this case, there was no need to be proactive and get their hands dirty, they may have taken advantage of the situation instead by doing nothing to prevent the terrorist attacks. We all know they've used them as an excuse for every sort of atrocity ever since, but these Black Hats are slicker than to be caught directly creating something so terrible.

No one needs to call names and get all worked up; no one can think clearly when they do that and thus we do our enemies work for them. Remain calm.

>>No, you're an asshole. I'm not a right winger, dickhead.

Indeed, the 'left' is as terrified of being associated with the 'conspiracy nuts' as the rightwing is ignorant of everything.

We spoke directly to Galloway after his talk at Mission High School when he came outside to smoke a cigar - he admitted to us he was wrong to have called 9/11 researchers 'Nuts'. He claimed he didn't recall saying that, although he did. I wouldn't be surprised if he's for real - the fierce desire to distance from the successful ostracizing campaign by the right-wing of ANYONE questioning the official story of 9/11 is like an illness for the left. They fill in their own blanks on why they have decided it is impossible to even question what happened that day. When I told Galloway that the families of the 9/11 Steering Committee are the ones asking the questions, his tone changed. But he is not alone. Most are the same way on the left. They have their own job to do, and they are afraid to stand up to the campaign of fear of questioning the golden myth. They just haven't thought about it enough to realize its all part of the same game.

>>If the left wasn't dogmatic sheep like yourself maybe they could win an election.

There have been no 'left' candidates to elect (nationally), so there's no point to 'winning' an 'election.'

But then, if you believe the official story of 9/11, you probably think the machines can't be messed with either.

You are on the path to Truth. The so-called "left" is too easily infected with crypto-right ideas. It's an almost unavoidable consequence of sucking down way too much mainstream propaganda, as in ANY.

Everybody else: chuck your TV set out a fuckin 10th-story window. It's poison. Same with the radio, unless you get good pirate stuff. Burn all those peessashit magazines (except for Fifth Estate and Covert Action Quarterly). Same with the "news" papers. For a full-range anarchy of ideas, there are only two real resources now: the internet (be selective!!) and downloaded audio via http://www.radio4all.net , http://www.flashpoints.net , http://democracynow.org , and a very few others. Let your minds flush out for 5+ years and then you'll actually begin to do this weird thing called THINKING

Is this even serious? God I hope so. Just when I think radical lefties can't make bigger fools out of themselves than they already have, they go do something like this and raise the bar for everyone. I do not even know where to begin. First, How can you explain the thousands of civilian eyewitnesses that collaberate the govt. account of the events? Just how many people are involved in this scheme? Second, Why the hell would anyone in power want to purposely kill thousands of their own people. Even if Bush was that evil, Why would he risk getting caught in a plot like this? Think. The president can't even get a blow job without everyone in the world finding out, How could he possibley risk something like this? Next, Why would this be a profitable scheme? Destroying the world trade centers isn't exactley the most profitable move an American president could make, mustless starting a multi billion dollar war. I know, he did it to take the middle east's oil right? Wrong again. If he was this evil, Why not just straight annex smaller oil countries. Why fight in very unhospitable areas like Iraq and Afgainistan? There are nations with much more tapped and untapped oil reserves that are also much easier to invade. (Venezuala, most of the UAE, even parts of Mexico) I beg any of you to please present rationale arguments against any of this. If not you should shut up, go home, keep getting high in your parent's basement, and play PS2 all night before going to your job at Starbucks the next morning.

There is only one question that matters. It concerns neither witness, motive, or possiblity of getting caught.

Which, if any, of the many conspiracy theories, including the official conspiracy theory, does the forensic evidence best support?

While I do not agree with you that eyewitness accounts are not the most important, (eye witness accounts are considered to be the most vital aspect of any search for truth in Anglo-American jurisprudence), I do agree that forensic evidence is also very helpful. Unfortunatley for the UFO crowd the forensic evidnece does not support any conspiracy theory. Here is a very good link you can go to to read for yourself. It is simple and unbiased. However, I am sure that many of you will think that Popular Mechanics magazine is a govt. pawn.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=1&c=y

You seem to be forgetting that the official version is itself a conspiracy theory. It's just one of the least plausible of the bunch, that's all, especially in light of the forensic evidence. Four black boxes could not survive the impact for which the were specifically designed to survive, but that guy's passport did!?! Gimme break. If you believe that, I know where you can get a great deal on a bridge.

As for eyewitness accounts, they are by no means the most reliable evidence. This is routinely driven home to law students when, in the course of their training, when a standard teaching trick is employed. A couple actors in rush into to the classroom unannounced, act out a brief a skit and leave. The students are then asked to write an account of what happened, immediately, while it is still fresh in their minds. Few, if any get it right. Many are wrong, not just about what happened, but about such basics as the race and gender of the actors.

See also:

http://unisci.com/stories/20012/0613011.htm

False Memories Easily Created, Researchers Discover

About one-third of the people who were exposed to a fake print ad describing a visit to Disneyland and how they met and shook hands with Bugs Bunny said later they remembered or knew the event happened to them.

The scenario described in the ad never occurred because Bugs Bunny is a Warner Bros. cartoon character and wouldn't be featured in any Walt Disney Co. property, according to University of Washington memory researchers Jacquie Pickrell and Elizabeth Loftus.

Pickrell will make two presentations on the topic at the annual meeting of the American Psychological Society (APS) on Sunday (June 17) in Toronto and at a satellite session of the Society for Applied Research in Memory and Cognition in Kingston, Ontario, on Wednesday.

"The frightening thing about this study is that it suggests how easily a false memory can be created," said Pickrell, UW psychology doctoral student.

"It's not only people who go to a therapist who might implant a false memory or those who witness an accident and whose memory can be distorted who can have a false memory. Memory is very vulnerable and malleable. People are not always aware of the choices they make. This study shows the power of subtle association changes on memory."

The research is a follow-up to an unpublished study by Loftus, a UW psychology professor who is being honored by the APS this week with its William James Fellow Award for psychological research; Kathryn Braun, a visiting scholar at the Harvard Business School; and Rhiannon Ellis, a former UW undergraduate who is now a doctoral student at the University of Pittsburgh.

In the original study, 16 percent of the people exposed to a Disneyland ad featuring Bugs Bunny later thought they had really seen and met the cartoon rabbit.

In the new research, Pickrell and Loftus divided 120 subjects into four groups. The subjects were told they were going to evaluate advertising copy, fill out several questionnaires and answer questions about a trip to Disneyland.

* The first group read a generic Disneyland ad that mentioned no cartoon characters.

* The second group read the same copy and was exposed to a 4-foot-tall cardboard figure of Bugs Bunny that was casually placed in the interview room. No mention was made of Bugs Bunny.

* The third, or Bugs group, read the fake Disneyland ad featuring Bugs Bunny.

* The fourth, or double exposure group, read the fake ad and also saw the cardboard rabbit.

This time, 30 percent of the people in the Bugs group later said they remembered or knew they had met Bugs Bunny when they visited Disneyland and 40 percent of the people in the double exposure group reported the same thing.

"'Remember' means the people actually recall meeting and shaking hands with Bugs," explained Pickrell. "'Knowing' is they have no real memory, but are sure that it happened, just as they have no memory of having their umbilical cord being cut when they were born but know it happened.

"Creating a false memory is a process. Someone saying, 'I know it could have happened,' is taking the first step of actually creating a memory. If you clearly believe you walked up to Bugs Bunny, you have a memory."

In addition, Pickrell said there is the issue of the consequence of false memories, or the ripple effects. People in the experiment who were exposed to the false advertising were more likely to relate Bugs Bunny to other things at Disneyland not suggested in the ad, such as seeing Bugs and Mickey Mouse together or seeing Bugs in the Main Street Electrical Parade.

"We are interested in how people create their autobiographical references, or memory. Through this process they might be altering their own memories," Pickrell said. "Nostalgic advertising works in a similar manner.

"Hallmark, McDonald's and Disney have very effective nostalgic advertising that can change people's buying habits. You may not have had a great experience the last time you visited Disneyland or McDonald's, but the ads may inadvertently be creating the impression that they had a wonderful time and leaving viewers with that memory. If ads can get people to believe they had an experience they never had, that is pretty powerful.

"The bottom line of our study is that the phony ad is making the difference. Just casually reading a Bugs Bunny cartoon or some other incidental exposure doesn't mean you believe you met Bugs.

"The ad does."

Go out to the airport.

Stand as close as you can to the runway.

Feel what it's like when a plane comes in for a landing. It is deafening and shakes you to your core.

Now picture MISTAKING or MISREMEMBERING that monster of an experience for ANYTHING ELSE like a missile (!) or a 'military craft' or no plane at all.

You cannot.

The experience of a commercial jet flying right near you is unmistakable - try it! - NOTHING like seeing a split second car crash or something happening at Disneyland.

>>First, How can you explain the thousands of civilian eyewitnesses that collaberate the govt. account of the events? Just how many people are involved in this scheme?

I agree - the eyewitnesses were right. There was a commercial jet or something so close to one that we will never know if it was a modified one or not. My theory is that it had explosives, but really, that doesn't even have to be the case. It's bad enough as it is that the Pentagon was hit at all when it was a defended building.

How many people? If you know anyone in the military you understand why only a handful of people are ever involved in this sort of thing, and how easily that's done - keeping the large numbers of people in the dark who are actively involved in the cover-up without realizing what they are doing.

Here's a description explaining thsi from 9/11 Review:

ERROR: Inside Job Implies a Vast Conspiracy

It is commonly believed that the 9/11/01 attack being an inside job implies the involvement of a vast numbers of co-conspirators. This idea is easily the single most effective impediment to serious examination of the evidence contradicting the official myth. The vast conspiracy idea is standard fare for leftgatekeepers like Alexander Cockburn.

. . . Technicians operating under strict orders of top officials and on a need-to-know basis could have performed many of the critical tasks for engineering the 9/11/01 attack. Perhaps they were supplied false explanations for the purpose of their tasks. Operatives who might have grasped the significance of their work as the attack unfolded may have been killed -- perhaps in the attack itself. It is reasonable to think that the entire 9/11/01 attack could have been executed by as few as a dozen insiders -- a far smaller number than the 10,000 assumed by Alexander Cockburn.
http://911review.com/errors/conspiracy.html

My basic problem with conspiracy theories is this. There are enough problems to worry about even with the widely accepted truth of what happened that it is a diversion to worry about wild plots, for example: The US did fund Islamic extremists as a way to hurt the Soviet Union and now it backfired on us, the US did fail to respond to the earlier attacks by Al Queda on the WTC, African embassies, the Cole, etc. Government agencies did not communicate properly, so that Defense Department, CIA, and FBI employees who were on to small parts of the plot were not listened to, etc. So we need to address these issues rather than worry about impossibly elaborate evil plots that never could have been kept secret anyway. As DMH mentioned, if we just wanted to invade someone for oil why not invade Mexico, it's a lot closer!

Also, you've got video taps from Bin Laden and his aides proudly taking credit for 9/11 and a dozen people in custody who've admitted their roles as well as trials in Germany, Italy, France and Spain all convicting Al Quaeda terrorists. These countries are not exactly happy with US policy at the moment so it is not likely that they are in on a plot, they convicted Islamic terrorists for involvement because they are guilty. These people really do hate us, and they really are capable of pulling off such an attack. That is scary enough!

I don't disagree that the Bush administration used the attacks to justify things it wanted to do anyway like invade Iraq, the Patriot act, etc. You don't have to beleive that the US government was in on 9/11 to believe that they took advantage of it to push through their agenda.

If it matters, I am not a Bush supporter and am against the war in Iraq, I just think conspiracy theorists hurt the credibility of those opposing Bush, that's all.

>>Also, you've got video taps from Bin Laden and his aides proudly taking credit for 9/11

As a fun exercise, try comparing the facial features of the man in the confession video to those of Osama bin Laden:

http://911research.wtc7.net/disinfo/deceptions/binladinvideo.html

There is a list of six differences at the bottom of this page. Osama bin Laden would need morphing super-powers to be the man in the confession video.

This is not a joke. To verify that the tape does in fact represent the imposter as bin Laden, watch the original video:

* Video as originally released by Pentagon (RealMedia file)
* Video re-ordered to reflect original chronological sequence (RealMedia file)

Why would Americans accept such an obvious fraud? Perhaps it has something to do with psychological investment. After swallowing all of the other red flags in the official story, why get tripped up over a phony video confession? The American news media had already tried and convicted Osama on September 11th. The video is just pro forma, and most people probably didn't pay much attention.

A better question might be: Why didn't the people who put this together make the effort to find an actor who looked more like Osama?

>>There are enough problems to worry about even with the widely accepted truth of what happened that it is a diversion to worry about wild plots

That's right, believing the wild plot that there were no WMDs was diverting from the real problems of stopping the war.

Believing the wild plot that the vote was a fraud in 2004 diverted from the real problems of stopping the war.

Believing the wild plot that Kennedy was assassinated by the US govt diverted from the real problems of stopping the war.

Believing the wild plot that MLK was assassinated by the US govt diverted from the real problems of stopping the war.

Or did they all add up to the larger understanding that 90% of what the US govt does is to benefit the rich, no matter what?

One might not like to 'worry,' but action generally requires that we do worry about something.

The only reason the plots seem wild is because likely, they are. And they are that way for a reason - to keep you from imagining they could be real.

Keep your chin up, and do not let these morons get you down for actually thinking. It has always been the hallmark of the far left to accept any crackpot theory as long as it makes the govt. look bad. The vast maj. of the readers of this website have zero understanding of economics, history, or politics. There is a difference in memorizing a bunch or facts or formulating a thesis, then coming up with random facts to support it; then actually understanding what Otto Von Bismark called "realpolitick." Reality is that the the US has very real enemies. Some we could have prevented. Some that we could have not. Reality is that millions of people have been in a religous war with Western Civilization for centuries. Sometimes lying low. Sometimes in full force. Throughout history Jihads have come in waves against the West. Sometimes the West has responded correctly, sometimes not. Sometimes our behavior towards them has been as bad or even worse. Reality is that Al Quada declared war formally on the US in the early 90's, seeing themselves as an extension of the first Great Jihad stopped by Charles Martel of France centuries ago. This was long before Bush, Iraq, 9/11, or even America. So idiots, this war would be raging with or without Bush. Did Bush intentionally start the war? No, because it was already in full force long ago. Have American actions complicated it? Maybe so. However, it is a strange situation where the most "tolerant" parts of our society openly back a way of thought that is brutally opressive to civil rights in every aspect. Bin Laden and opressive Muslim societies are seen as victims and Bush is the world enemy. If there is any real conspiracy it may be in our own country. How can thousands of Americans be killed on 9/11 and so many people feel that our govt. either stood by and did nothing, or was involved in the actual planning? Facts are presented, people argue back with bullshit about Mickey Mouse or Karl Rove. Reality is that there are multitudes of people who want to see me and you killed. Reality is that even if we do not want war, we have one no matter how many Cindy Sheehans there are. Reality is that 9/11 once again showed how vulnerable we are. Conspiracies always arise when something or someone of extreme power is injured or destroyed by a simple means. JFK and Lincoln where larger than life, yet gunned down by simple men. The truth is almost too much for us. How could a power that puts men on the moon, can create weapons to destroy the entire world, and have the most sophistcated machines that the world has ever seen be struck by a couple of fanatics carrying around plastic knifes. Reality is simple sometimes. We were unprepared and against an enemy that was meticulous and fueled by religous fanaticism.
It is going to get worse before it gets any better. You said you are not a Bush supporter. I completlely understand. We should not waste time with partisan politics. We all must realize that these people will kill indiscreminatley, even other Muslims are not safe. (just read about the muder at the great Mosque in 1979/ Bin Laden called it a "holy spectacle of cleansing"/ however I am sure that this recieves zero coverage on this website) In order for 9/11 to be an inside job you have to ignore 1. witnesses 2. motives of any kind 3. Al Quada's trademark plus all public confessions that they did it. Even if was a small group, what small group would have the power to do that, and why? I am waiting for some form of intelligent response.

DMH: Millions of people have been in a religous war with Western Civilization for centuries.

Orwell: We have always been at war with Eurasia.

DMH: "Why the hell would anyone in power want to purposely kill thousands of their own people. Even if Bush was that evil, Why would he risk getting caught in a plot like this?"

Well, Dubya's daddy was CIA back in the good ol' Dulles / Bay of Pigs days, so naturally he was in on the plot to whack JFK. *HE* got a way with it didn't he?

http://www.internetpirate.com/bush.htm

See, this 'risk getting caught' argument only works on people who can't face the fact that this government is utterly rotten, corrupt, and simply evil. You're obviously not students of US history's ghastly underbelly. The only people who've ever been punished for shit like this are low-level patsies, e.g. Gordon Liddy and Oliver North. I'll wager you haven't even heard of the even more vile Contra funding scheme that followed Iran-Contra

http://www.narconews.com/darkalliance/drugs/start.htm

Not a single government head rolled over this. And if you DID know about it, why do you find 9-11 skepticism so preposterous? It's six of one, half a dozen of the other.

"Destroying the world trade centers isn't exactley the most profitable move an American president could make, much less starting a multi billion dollar war."

My god, you don't know a thing about post-modern economics, do you? Why the hell do you think ruling elites LAUNCH wars? Everything they do is filtered through a totally cold-blooded cost/benefit/"is this a good investment" brand of analysis. the weapons-and-conquest business is the all-time most lucrative EVER. When you say "multi billion dollar war" you're talking about TAXPAYER cost. That doesn't mean shit to these people. They're not on the tax roll anymore. Even when it's deficit spending, they don't give a shit, this albatross is around the hoi polloi's necks. And if it ever looks like consequences will come their way, they'll just roll more heads until the debt collectors back off. These are essentially Mafia crime families.

"Why not just straight annex smaller oil countries. Why fight in very unhospitable areas like Iraq and Afgainistan? There are nations with much more tapped and untapped oil reserves that are also much easier to invade. (Venezuala, most of the UAE, even parts of Mexico) I beg any of you to please present rationale arguments against any of this."

Here, try this: N-E-O-C-O-L-O-N-I-A-L-I-S-M. Sound it out. We don't need to invade most of the countries you named cuz they're already in our back pocket. This certainly includes Mexico. We invaded Iraq and Afghanistan because they had gone totally rogue in neocolonial terms and could not be reined in, and meanwhile it was IMPERATIVE they be reined in vis uncontested control of the world's most strategic resources. Zbigniew Brzezinski's 'The Grand Chessboard' is most relevant here

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/zbig.html

We tried for many years -- about 16 in Iraq's case -- to coerce iraq and Afghanistan into alignment through a progression of lesser measures, some of them extreme in their own right. it didn't work, so invasion became the next least attractive option. By 'least attractive' I mean in political terms, not economic. War is extremely profitable for the private sector, which has essentially overthrown our government, but invasion is still a weighty decision in terms of alerting the world as to the true nature of your game.

"...eye witness accounts are considered to be the most vital aspect..."

You keep talking about eye-witnesses. WHAT FUCKING EYE WITNESSES? Where? Everybody on the planes got cooked AND smashed. Those are the only eye-witnesses that really count! Don't you grasp the 'blank canvas' quality that emerges from this absence? The closest thing to eyewitnesses is the cell-phone calls from flight 93 passengers who supposedly forced their way into the cockpit and downed the plane. This is almost certainly maudlin propaganda, by the way

SUPERB site!!!
http://www.flight93crash.com/

Anyway, the surviving SECOND-HAND accounts amount to hearsay.

Just because nobody on the ground saw missiles flying into the Pentagon, pod planes, etc. etc. this does not cancel the possibility of government complicity AT ALL. In fact, a lot of that wild whacky stuff looks like red herring disinformation generated by parties intent on making the whole 9-11 truth thing look like lunatics, i.e. by hostile pricks like you. In an amazingly combative 1968 interview, Johnny Carson tried to discredit Jim Garrison with this exact same game

http://www.prouty.org/garrison/carson1.ram

It's as if Johnny's brain got commandeered for the night by a then-pimply-faced Bill O'Reilly. This raises suspicions all by itself. Why do the naysayers get so livid over this stuff? Do they feel threatened or something? Ah well, small fearful minds work in amusing ways. Then there are the spooks. They at least are rational

reader: "If you know anyone in the military you understand why only a handful of people are ever involved in this sort of thing"

Right on, dude! I wish the 'remote control' theory would get more attention. This doesn't require any 'eye-witness anomalies' whatsoever, and it could be pulled off with an amazingly small number of people (who could all catch a bullet in the brain afterward). If I were a spook planning 9-11, this is what I'd go for hands down. As I've pointed out elsewhere, extremely sophisticated remote flight control platforms can be found right on the world-wide web

http://www.sysplan.com/Radar/FTS

God only knows what the top secret stuff is like. The remote control scenario is an extremely elegant explanation
that negates all the 'resourceful resistance' around here. In this age of mind-boggling electronic gizmos, it's not even that fantastic

CO: "There are enough problems to worry about even with the widely accepted truth of what happened that it is a diversion to worry about wild plots"

Ah, bullshit. If you refuse to entertain the possibility that this government is willing to kill you to advance its imperial game (and I say fear is why people do this), then you're throwing away an entire alternative system of historical interpretation. It's a mighty compelling one by the way. When ruling elites launch wars, who goes off and gets blown apart in the front lines? Them, or the "little people?" Now, what are these wars really about? Are they about the bonafide self-interests of those little people, or are they about the elites' pathological hunger for more wealth and power? My thesis is that it's the second, and that elites make a conscious calculated decision to kill their subjects. And no, the calculus isn't 'the Greater Good' or some such shit. As far as they're concerned, "little people" are a commodity, and in this case an expendable one. Hermann Goering said it really well

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/goering.htm

So if they'll callously send off untold numbers of their own to get killed and maimed horribly in some assholish war of conquest, why does it suddenly become unthinkable for them to stand by knowingly while something equivalent happens on home soil? Do you doubt ancient Rome could have been this cynical? Or Hitler? Or Stalin? Oh, but the US government is a whole different animal, isn't it? R-i-i-i-i-ight. Step right over here and check out this Louisiana swamp I own. This is where Coronado buried all the gold, but I'm broke man, so I gotta sell....

When you're too complacent and chicken to face the possibility that the superclass is your mortal enemy, you in essence blind yourself to the true nature of history. This basically makes you into an intellectual paraplegic, unable to make sense of ANYTHING of large importance. Yes, history IS this important.

"Also, you've got video taps from Bin Laden and his aides proudly taking credit for 9/11"

See there it is. You're getting your "knowledge" from THE FUCKING TELEVISION SET!!!! You can't even figure out what a shit-spewing geyser of lies that thing is!!!! Watching Americans blindly accept the first "confession" tape devastated my already dim estimation of their average intelligence. The guy in the video DOESN'T EVEN LOOK LIKE HIM!!!

http://911blimp.net/vid_fakeOsamaVideo.shtml

I could go on with this, CO/DMH, but I think I've made my point, and I think you really are right-wingers, both of you, even if you can't figure it out. Don't feel so insulted by this CO: most Americans "leftists" are just like you. What you're both exhibiting is a classic case of 'motivated cognition.' i.e. seeing what you want to see

http://psychoanalystsopposewar.org/resources_files/ConsevatismAsMotivatedSocialCognition.pdf

This is an award-winning paper. Fear is the number one motivation it discusses

Anyone writing this much (above) has too much time on their hands for this. If you're going to write that much you should go get your own blog or something.

And anyone pointing anything it 911blimp - what a JOKE!!!!! - is trying to insert BS into an otherwise sane thread. In fact, it makes me wonder what your goal is on here . . .

Rants of a complete fool. It is hard know where to even begin. So I will just ask you a few simple questions.

1. How can you dismiss all mainstream television stations and newsources around the world,inluding those that have no affiliation with the US whatsoever, yet attempt to uphold backward ass websites as the cardinal truth? (it is sad that snopes.com is head and shoulders your most reliable source)

2. If you truly believe the govt. is that evil, why are you still here? How can you live with yourself while you continue to benefit off the fruits of war and imperialism. (two concepts you certainly do not understand). Doesn't this make you the ultimate hypocrite? If your answer is that you do care about the country, but wish to change it; what whould you do differently?

3. I hope you do answer back with the normal anti- Capitalism, anti-corporation, anti-US, delusional thought about the CIA and the Military that comes along with your mental retardation. After you spew that crap you will call me a right-wing asshole. Good. The rest of the country is laughing at you.

Since your items 2 & 3 are both totally irrelevant, I suggest you think of some other stock John Bircher stunts you can pull out of your ass to take their place

This leaves "1) How can you dismiss all mainstream television stations, etc.?"

Uh-huh. Let's look at some of the "minor subjects" the US media have virtually blacked out of existence for the past six years. Here's **150** for starters...

http://projectcensored.org/publications/index.html
http://projectcensored.org/censored_2006/index.htm

Aw gee, looky at this feature. In fact read this whole thing closely

http://www.projectcensored.org/newsflash/unanswered_questions_911.html

Next let's look at what happens to reporters who ignore the blacklist.

http://www.freedomofthepress.net/intothebuzzsaw.htm

Hey gee wuddayaknow, they get their FUCKIN CAREERS DESTROYED!! In Gary Webb's case, he gets to eat the muzzle of his father-in-law's .38 Special. Everyone in the industry now knows this is what will happen to them.

Meanwhile, back here in people-who-think-ville, the "crackpots" on the internet who self-publish in an unregulated manner have hit jackpots time and again on stuff the media doesn't so much as whisper about. Mike Ruppert, for example (you know, the guy who's site you called "backward ass") has been talking very persuasively about Peak Oil for the past three years. Now guess who's finally picking it up?

http://www.time.com/time/globalbusiness/article/0,9171,1106299-1,00.html

Aw gee, thanks Mr. Luce. Thanks fer NUTHIN!!!!

Other such stories: The Abu Ghraib torture thing; No WMD's and GW brazenly lying the country into going to war (they called this AS IT WAS HAPPENING!!); the creepy role of the neocons in all of it; the Bush family's Nazi connections; far more than I can remember. All this stuff was buzzing around on "whack sites" while the big networks were still fingering their assholes. Most of it still hasn't been picked up even though much has been verified beyond doubt by work published overseas.

You're just too chicken to admit to yourself that mainstream media -- ESPECIALLY TV -- are corrupt as hell AND heavily (self) censored. Censorship isn't just a commie boogeyman thing. Sorry.

DMH: "...attempt to uphold backward ass websites as the cardinal truth..."

Those "backward ass websites" linked directly to solid verifiable information

The FBI memo from J Edgar Hoover exposing Poppy Bush as a CIA officer working against Castro is real (it's been verified). Sorry

Gary Webb was vindicated by the CIA itself in sworn testimony. Sorry

The quotes from Brzezinski's book are real. Go pick it up and check it out. Sorry

Johnny Carson really did interview Jim Garrison in 1967 and acted like a nut the whole time. Sorry

The Flight Termination System is quite real. That's its manufacturer's own website. Sorry

'Conservatism As Motivated Social Cognition' is a well-regarded scientific paper. Sorry

http://www.flight93crash.com is a well-done site that builds a very strong argument that the plane in PA was shot out of the air. It names names of the people who provide the EYE-WITNESS ACCOUNTS it's based on. All those accounts were published in regional newspapers right after the incident ( http://www.flight93crash.com/flight93_eyewitness.html ). Eye witnesses are your favorite Perry Mason fetish, aren't they? Since the people are named, their accounts are also verifiable. Sorry

As for 911blimp.net, I'm dealing with this further down

"...war and imperialism (two concepts you certainly do not understand..."

Uh-huh. I'm a hardcore free-thinker and student of history, and of the two of us I suspect YOU are the one laboring under a very comical load of "recieved wisdom." C'mon bigshot, lay it on me. Tell me again what gramps taught you about this stuff.

Also, to the fraud hiding behind the "9-11 researcher" sunglasses: if that's what you really are, there is NO WAY you would scoff at a 911blimp PAGE that shows Osama bin Fatass "fessing up." This video is a widely acknowledged forgery, as was pointed out in another post linking to the well-vetted site 911research.wtc7.net

http://911research.wtc7.net/disinfo/deceptions/binladinvideo.html

Therefore YOU are the one who's looking like a lying snake in the grass at this point

By the way, "Casual Observer," I've seen you exposing your true zionist self in the other threads so now I know what you're really up to. Nobody said it better than Netanyahu on Sept. 11, 2001

"[The attack is] very good! Well, it's not good, but it will generate immediate sympathy [for Israel]"

"Since your items 2 & 3 are both totally irrelevant, I suggest you think of some other stock John Bircher stunts you can pull out of your ass to take their place."

Translation A. "I do not know the answer to those questions, and they scare me." or much more likely B."Answering those questions will make me look bad, so I will choose to bypass them." Well played. However, the rest of your tired response proved item three anyway. oops.

So the "small" conspiracy theory has grown now to include evey single major news publication in the country. Why not the whole world as well? After all, newspapers and television programs around the WORLDWIDE accept the "mainstream" 9/11 story. I guess they are in the cover-up too. They might as well be.

"Meanwhile, back here in people-who-think-ville, the "crackpots" on the internet who self-publish in an unregulated manner have hit jackpots time and again on stuff the media doesn't so much as whisper about."

I guess the vast, even very violent, conspiracy cannot touch internet bloggers and small time websites, right? How can these guys continue to function unfazed. Maybe they are just smarter than everyone else and can stay out of clutches of the evil conspiracy.

"Other such stories: The Abu Ghraib torture thing; No WMD's and GW brazenly lying the country into going to war..."

Yep, the mainstream media did not even touch those subjects did they? Looks like the all powerful conspiracy folks could not stop CNN, FOX, Newsweek, and about 1 billion others from reporting on these ad nausem. I guess carreers will be ruined and people will have to kill themselves.

"The FBI memo from J Edgar Hoover exposing Poppy Bush as a CIA officer working against Castro is real (it's been verified)."

Well yeah. So what. What do think someone does for the CIA? I realize you have likely never been around anyone involved in the the govt. in any form or fashion. (for obvious security reasons). So I guess this ties both the CIA and the Bush family into the conspiracy. Anyone else you want to add?

"Uh-huh. I'm a hardcore free-thinker and student of history, and of the two of us I suspect YOU are the one laboring under a very comical load of "recieved wisdom."

I will give you that your a hardcore free-thinker. There are not very many at your level. However, I am glad you are around or things would get really boring. As far as a good student of history, not a chance. You are good at arriving at a broad thesis, then throwing out irrelevent facts to try to prove it. Although any sane person could not decipher exactley what that thesis is. As far as I can tell you are not sure who is involved in this scheme, but it could be anyone. So all facts that do not support your conclusion should be thrown out. If you understood economics or history you would know A. Both governments of Iraq and Afghanistan would have loved to have done business with the US without risking the cost and bad PR of war B. You would know that both countries are very difficult to fight in or take over. Saddam had to hold together a country with no natural borders with brute force. We are having similar problems right now. Afghanistan is a horrible place to conduct military operations. Two British armies were cut to pieces attempting to colonize it. So was a modern Russian Army. Even Alexander the Great was not successful.
I understand there are many people reading this who are just as misguidied as my friend above. There is little hope for you. However, this is a great opportunity for people with a causual interest to see just how warped some minds actually are. All you have to do is sit back and watch them hang themselves.

You never revealed your source for the preposterous figure of $6,000,000,000 embezzled by Arafat

I recall seeing that figure in Al Jazeera.

Just remember that the anti-zionists are full of lies and hyperbole because thats all they've got. They've told me that I was 14 (once upon a time I was) and they've accused by of being "Becky" (which really cracked up my wife!) Its a way of distracting from their lack of facts to support any reasonable position,like the incessantname calling.

If Al Jazeera says Arafat squireled away 6 billion,then it must be twice that!

Shabbat Sholom!

Nice freak out nut job. How do you sleep at night? I do not know who the hell Tia is. But I can guarantee he/she is more intelligent than you are. Maybe I work for "Big Brother." Maybe there are people watching you and your movement. ooooeeooo!! You would like that wouldn't you? Unfortunatley, you are part of an insignificant circus that most people either laugh at or ignore.
By the way, saying I have been slaughtering your people for the last 80 years, when you have no idea what race, sex, or religion I am, is pretty damn intolerant. I hope you keep ranting because me and friends think you are most entertaining thing going right now.

Why does the Zionist propaganda mill want us to think about Arafat's money, but not who was really behind 9/11? Is there something they know that we don't and that they don't want us to discover? If not, why are they trying to distract us?

By the way, that was great the way you ignored the questions again. Hope everyone took note.

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/inside911/

Anyone reading this who is not insane should go this link and order the DVD ASAP. It is an incredible series.

Is the National Geographic Society in on the plot too? Maybe so.

2. If you truly believe the govt. is that evil, why are you still here? How can you live with yourself while you continue to benefit off the fruits of war and imperialism. (two concepts you certainly do not understand). Doesn't this make you the ultimate hypocrite? If your answer is that you do care about the country, but wish to change it; what whould you do differently?

3. I hope you do answer back with the normal anti- Capitalism, anti-corporation, anti-US, delusional thought about the CIA and the Military that comes along with your mental retardation. After you spew that crap you will call me a right-wing asshole. Good. The rest of the country is laughing at you.

First of all #3 isn't even a question. Second, I DID address these:
"Since your items 2 & 3 are both totally irrelevant, I suggest you think of some other stock John Bircher stunts you can pull out of your ass to take their place"

If you have anything relevant to say, do so. I've addressed every such point. If you don't, fuck off

"Maybe there are people watching you and your movement. ooooeeooo!! You would like that wouldn't you? Unfortunatley, you are part of an insignificant circus that most people either laugh at or ignore."

That's funny. It now appears the entire zio bark-down brigade has been lurking here all along. These are "your friends," aren't they? It's unheard of for them to appear in threads not relevant to Israel, zionism, and all the supportive mythologies. If 9-11 is of "only incidental interest" to them why are they now popping up? Why do they care enough about this subject to even look at the top article? Or is 9-11 your new premier 'supportive mythology?' eeYUPP. No matter who you are, this effectively validates my point, as in "so again we have a zionist mole trying to bark down alternative conjectures about 9-11"

As if to corroborate this, you're exhibiting yet another telltale zionist symptom: you keep saying I don't substantiate my arguments even as I'm putting infinitely more effort into this than yourself. I say 'Infinitely' because, you see, I'm dividing by ZERO. Why do zionists always avoid substantive discussion like the plague? Is it because they're all pathological liars?

eeYUPP

"By the way, saying I have been slaughtering your people for the last 80 years, when you have no idea what race, sex, or religion I am, is pretty damn intolerant."

Complacent pro-imperialists such as yourself have been at the very least silent collaborators in the global slaughter of authentic leftists that has unfolded during this period. They also made up the rabid brainwashed horde that actually did the killing. The Nazis were just one piece of this. Here's the US piece, backed up with 2400 sources:

http://members.aol.com/bblum6/American_holocaust.htm

Hey Yidiot: if you've been accused of being 14, maybe that's because you're a featherweight punk when it comes to building solid arguments

Speaking of backing things up, "Scholar," saying "I recall seeing that figure in Al Jazeera" doesn't cut it. For the billionth fucking time SHOW US THE LINK / TITLE

I have now asked you many many questions that you have totally ignored/avoided/scuttled away from. How about answering my questions as thoroughly as I've answered yours?

This is Tia's weekend to infiltrate the ISM, remember?

It's more likely that they are just gullible, that's all.

-question posed- If you truly believe the govt. is that evil, why are you still here? How can you live with yourself while you continue to benefit off the fruits of war and imperialism. (two concepts you certainly do not understand). Doesn't this make you the ultimate hypocrite? If your answer is that you do care about the country, but wish to change it; what whould you do differently?

-answer-"Since your items 2 & 3 are both totally irrelevant, I suggest you think of some other stock John Bircher stunts you can pull out of your ass to take their place"

What?....

You have spent almost the entire time ranting and basing your facts on sources that are either highly questionable or laughable. Your theory as I can gather it is something like this, but feel free to correct me if I mess it up: Some group of people (so far the Bush family, the Bush staff, the 9/11 commision, the Israeli govt., the entire CIA, the military, any one envolved in any respected world wide media source, ex-Nazis, Zionists, Conservatives, Corporations, any one else you want to add) planned and executed on American soil the murder of thousands of their own people, destroying one of the symbols of capitalism, without the general public finding out, in order to start a multi-facet war of agression, in some of the most hostile and least profitable parts of the world. But it gets better. You have to ignore the FACTS that Al-Qada bombed the WTC once before, said they would do it again, bombed embasssies and other installations around the world, and have openly admitted and bragged about Sept. 11. All part of the conspiracy? (Then I guess the Clinton adminstration was in on it too) And get this, the groups not part of the conspiracy; other govt. agencies, local law enforcement, all other politicians at any levels, and low level military that have captured mujadeen in the field who have confessed to involvement; either are involved, have no idea what is really going on, or are scared into telling the truth. The only people that actually know what happened are a group of underground internet sources and your group of protestors. You are right on one thing. You do put alot more effort into your argument than I do. But I guess alot more effort is required when rationality it tossed out the window.

So I think my question is very relevant. If you believe that your country has sunk to the level of evil, how can you still be a part of it? You are willing to say bad things about it, yet you still enjoy the benefits of the booming economy and the freedom. Doesn't that make you even worse than the people that believe they are doing nothing wrong and those that openly support it?

I am no zionist. And as far as I know none of my friends are. My only interest in Israel is studying how effective they have been fighting terrorists (the PLO, Hezbolla, Eygptian Jihad etc.) in their own country. We could learn alot from them.

I know you like websites. I tried to only include those with sources outside the US, or are not considered "mainstream"

http://www.mideastweb.org/alqaeda.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/alqaida/0,12469,797383,00.html
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/09/12/alqaeda.911.claim/
(look at even though it from CNN)
http://www.rickross.com/reference/alqaeda/alqaeda60.html
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1030-05.htm
http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/latest/wtc.php
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&articleID=000DA0E2-1E15-128A-9E1583414B7F0000&colID=13
http://www.911myths.com/
(all of you should study this one)
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm
(Know you like snopes)
http://www.publiceye.org/conspire/Post911/dubious_claims.html

Our conflict of opinion is really very simple:

You have this OFFICIAL conspiracy theory you've accepted as gospel based on having heard it over and over again. Very admirable. You keep throwing these "authoritative" accounts at me as if I'm supposed to grovel in subjection before them, but see I don't respond to authority the way you do. When some US official or "journalist" (just as likely a PR worker) writes a nasty dismissive piece about "9-11 conspiracy theorists" I give this exactly as much weight as if some stranger on the street said it. It's the SAME THING. All your "proof positive" that the official scenario is the whole truth and nothing but the truth comes from secondary, tertiary, and often reactionary sources. Meanwhile the REAL proof, the definitive incrimination Bush promised us, has never seen the light of day. It's been deep-sixed under the all-purpose rubric of "national security." Much of your argument consists of 'straw men' -- ridiculous shit that's caught on in the 9-11 truth movement that I don't believe either, that I'm dismayed to see them stand on. Meanwhile, you refuse to grapple with your deepest assumptions about the whole thing. Your biggest assumption: this government is far too noble and wonderful to ever do any such thing. Your second biggest: that their having a role in it and an alleged Islamist underground plotting and executing it are ipso facto two mutually exclusive possibilities. Your faith in these assumptions is both blind and total.

I'm glad you brought up the 1993 WTC bombing, because it points up how stupid these assumptions truly are. The main bomb builder, Emad Ali Salem, was the FBI's inside man in this plot, an informant/provocateur. He begged them to provide fake explosive with which to build the bomb. The FBI ignored him. This was reported on page A1 of the New York Times, Oct. 28 1993
http://www.geocities.com/mlingley/
The LA Times and Atlantic Monthly picked this up too. Where the fuck were you? Had your head down that ostrich-hole again, eh?

This tells us A) the FBI had foreknowledge B) it was essentially complicit in the plot C) they could have used their indirect control to make the attack harmless but chose not to D) they could have just collared the terrorists at any time and prevented them from doing anything, but instead they let them go ahead and do their worst. Now, why in the fuck would they do that? If there was a guy in a belltower with a .30-06 getting ready to shoot the President and the Secret Service knew all about it, would they just let him go ahead? I wonder. Maybe if he was THEIR guy... No, no!! Surely such things can't happen in America the Wonderful!! A fifth item also becomes clear: if Ali Salem hadn't shrewdly taped his phone conversations with his FBI contacts, the US public never would have learned any of this.

For my part -- and this is what really chaps your ass -- I don't bindly accept ANY theory. I'm an agnostic on this stuff, and all I'm really about is telling other people why they should be agnostics too. This is what many if not most 9-11 skeptics are really about. Pointing to flaws in the official account is not the same thing as saying "see this other scenario is definitely what happened then" even if some dorks do make this leap. The main object is to tell people "don't blindly accept what the government and major media are telling you, don't drink the Kool-Aid, don't buy into this next Great Imperial Boogeyman. The people urging you to do this have ulterior motives and are not trustworthy." I don't think this is an evil thing to tell people, in fact I think it respects and stimulates their prerogative to think things through according to their TRUE self-interests, not the brainwashed shit you cling to. You on the other hand seem outraged by anyone who entertains any interpretation other than the ONE you approve of. You know, it's people just like you who made Stalin's Russia what it was. Don't go telling me how free this country is and how I should respect that, because I obviously respect freedom -- EVERYONE'S freedom -- much more than you, enough to recognize your concept of it as the symptomatically narrow fascist variety.

"So I think my question is very relevant."
No, it's the sort of thing a flag-draped Eagle Scout resorts to out of spite when someone besmirches his personal God, America the Perfect. Nonetheless there is a particle of truth in your attempted smear because I AM tempted to leave, but it's not that simple. I have a wife whom I love who will never do that. I have an old mother who needs me around. I have old friends I would miss desperately. Also, and quite unlike yourself, I don't equate this government or its politics with "my country." It's like calling the top 0.1% income level "my country." People who believe this are, in my opinion, truly and deeply fucked up in the head, dangerous political maniacs. You're entirely welcome to take that personally. I think this government is turning into a real menace and Americans are a much nastier breed than they suppose, but this LAND, the place of my birth and youth, is my home, and it would break my heart to never see it again. As much as red-white-and-blue fascists like yourself strive to reduce this to 'love it or leave it,' it's just not that simple. I DO love it, just not in the ONE way you'll allow

Another point is that living here does not involve a set amount of participation in this country's global empire. There are a few blessed pockets of sanity where many people know your breed of "Proud American" for the planetary scourge it truly is and are striving to create local economies that will let them dissociate from you. I have the incredible good fortune to live in such a place. Moreover the biggest piece of being or not being a Proud American Imperialist is a personal lifestyle choice, namely the decision to pursue wealth and live "The American Dream™." That dream translates directly into the nightmare presently being experienced by 60+ percent of the world's people, and the selfishness and moral detachment needed to not know this are exactly what I mean when I say Americans as a whole are damnable. For my own life, I have chosen to live very modestly, technically in poverty. If more Americans held themselves accountable in the ways that I do, there would be no shame whatsoever in being American. Which means I am not a party to YOUR shame.

What makes the aversion to simplicity all the more senseless is that, as Henry Thoreau tried to show us, my choice can be a very sweet life -- as long as you don't have kids. Kids have become another indefensible life decision. Any kid born today will bear witness to unbearable tragedy, the death of most of life, within their lifetime. If they're not one of the fuck-ees who die or at least know the awful reality of what they're witnessing, they'll be one of the fuck-ers who do the killing or don't care. This is actually my biggest beef with the American Way of Life™ as we already know it. The possibility of living a benign unmolested existence has already been all but eliminated, and this isn't made less true by leaving. It's global now. Choosing to be a fuck-er or a fuck-ee is already inherent to being alive, and it's going to get much much worse very fast. Why would anyone want their kid -- whom they ostensibly love -- to be either? The real answer, of course, is they don't think about it in these terms at all, which only adds to their criminal irresponsibility

Since I've now answered your bullshit irrelevant question, I think you should answer one of mine

you've let something very interesting slip out:
"My only interest in Israel is studying how effective they have been fighting terrorists (the PLO, Hezbolla, Eygptian Jihad etc.) in their own country. We could learn alot from them."
"What do think someone does for the CIA? I realize you have likely never been around anyone involved in the the govt. in any form or fashion. (for obvious security reasons)."

What exactly do you do for a living DMH? Would you be able to tell us even if you wanted to? Just tell us the category then. Law enforcement? Intel? How about income, how much do you make a year? You know, I brought 'motivated cognition' to your attention, but obviously it's just another subject you'd rather not think about. That's a pity, because I think in your case it may be exceptionally relevant

http://www.wam.umd.edu/~hannahk/bulletin.pdf

http://www.911myths.com/
(all of you should study this one)

Hadn't seen this one before.

And welcome to the club- we all find it particularly amusing when "Nazi Troll" starts seeing Zionists in his tea cup. And in case you haven't noticed," Nazi troll" uses the term "Zionist" for anyone who disagrees with him. "Zionist", "fuckface", "smearing asshole"- its all the same to him.

Who benefits when we accept the government at its word, without question? What kind of people encourage such behavior?

narcissie: "Who benefits when we accept the government at its word, without question?"

How to tell when nessie is losing a point: he starts throwing around paranoid, portentious generalities.

The 911 Myths site is very interesting and complete -- thanks for the tip!

@%<

So we can safely assume that an answer is not in the offing, at least not from the Zionist propaganda mill.

I ask again, who benefits when we accept the government at its word, without question? Be specific.

"I have a wife"

Yuck.
You have a wife?
Someone sleeps with you?
Regularly?
Without money changing hands?

Now I'm really grossed out

Glad eveyone is enjoying the 9/11 myth site. And thanks for the support. Now to deal with this idot's almost complete meltdown.

You are correct that this has been a bunch of bullshit. You have lived up to evey single one of the generalities spoke of in the begining. Name calling. Paranoid rants about the govt. and evil corporations. Constant contradictions. A conspiracy that is first "small" and eventually grew to an extensive maze of fear. Now the FBI is involved. Part of the reason 9/11 occurred in the first place is that these government agencies had shortfallings when it came to working together. Listening to you, I guess they are capable of doing anything. Maybe so.Your argument relies totally on the principe of ignoring evidence you do not like; and accepting the little bit you can construct a paranoid fanatasy around. Mainstream media is worthless. Fine. I provided plenty of proof from publications that are A. non-political B. openly left-wing C. not involved with the US in anyway, all of which is ignored. This conpiracy is so powerful that is can hault reports on the "real" 9/11 story. However, the conpiracy is completly out of luck when it comes to suppressing devastating stories like voter fraud, Abu Garib, Rove and CIA leaks, etc. Well I guess they can't do eveything right. Our conflict of opinion is very simple indeed. I am showing rationale proof, while your only explaination is that I cannot proove these things with absolute clarity. Well moron, no one can proove anything with 100% rightous truth. But all thinking people arrive at some conclusion. They do not make wild claims then retreat into their shell saying that they are "agnostic." (i.e clueless)
Now I want to address what the real problem is.

You are like a vegatarian that wears leather. A walking, living, breathing contradiction. I love the way that when your back was against the wall you retreated to the same old boring song and dance. Accusing me of being a spook, someone named Tia, a Zionist (what does your dislike of Jews even have to do with any of this?), Now you are still questioning my motives; wanting to know if I am in law enforcment and how much money I make. Truely sad. I debated a few minutes before I wrote this if I should tell you I am part of a govt. ring trying to inflitrate your little "movement." The thought of the panic that would produce would be hilarous. However, I do not want to lie or give you the false pretense that anyone in the govt. gives a flying shit about your wacko ideas.
Of course you are not going to leave this country. Where would you go? You can say and do anything you want here. The very govt. you despise protects your rights to make vicious accusations against them, show no proof whatsoever, then go back to your home in one of the most beautiful parts of the country. Do you even have a job? If you resemble any of these losers at the top of thread I would doubt it. It does not matter anyway. You can simply live off the govt. if it comes down to it. What are going to do when the paranoia finally consumes you? You claim that you and your little "circle" have found a way to live outside the govt. grasp. What?? I know if I was dealing with something that powerful and evil I would not simply hang around thinking I could avoid them. Just think about. Perhaps someday people could be creating conspiracy theories around your future insane actions. Until then you can rest assured that people you fear and despise will be sacrificing thier time, money, and even lives so that your group will be safe to get high and plan your abortion of a protest. By the way if you really care, I am an attorney. So let the conspiracy roll...........

So I think you should answer mine

you've let something very interesting slip out:
"My only interest in Israel is studying how effective they have been fighting terrorists (the PLO, Hezbolla, Eygptian Jihad etc.) in their own country. We could learn alot from them."
"What do think someone does for the CIA? I realize you have likely never been around anyone involved in the the govt. in any form or fashion. (for obvious security reasons)."

What exactly do you do for a living DMH? Would you be able to tell us even if you wanted to? Just tell us the category then. Law enforcement? Intel? How about income, how much do you make a year? You know, I brought 'motivated cognition' to your attention, but obviously it's just another subject you'd rather not think about. That's a pity, because I think in your case it may be exceptionally relevant

http://www.wam.umd.edu/~hannahk/bulletin.pdf

"You have lived up to evey single one of the generalities spoke of in the begining."

You mean I've lived up to every single stereotype you superimposed on me from the beginning?!? Wow man bummer. I'm gonna have to truck my Birkies on outta here and trip on down the road in my flower-spangled Superbeetle. Peace dude!

"Constant contradictions."
Where? Lay it on me. Be very specific. Juxtapose quotes

"ignoring evidence you don't like / accepting the little bit you [do]"
Uh no actually that would be YOU, only in your case the information you prefer is spilling like a bullshit avalanche out of your TV set every day, so therefore you're in herd-animal heaven with it. Like I said I'm an agnostic on this stuff. I'm not actually closed to accepting your version, I just see peril and chumpdom in doing so blindly. This feeling is somehow reinforced by the constant barkings of well-coiffed talking heads and extreme-right shills. It's interesting that you responded to the word 'agnostic' with the stock bible-freak epithet of "clueless." So in addition to your blind faith in Big Daddy Gubmint you also have blind faith in the Old Man Floating On A Cloud thing, eh? Well they do go hand in hand. Custom-made to reinforce each other actually

"I provided plenty of proof from publications that are
non-political"

No such animal.

"not involved with the US in anyway"

Are they published in a Western country? If so then refer back to (A)

"openly left-wing"

I guess that would mean these two:
http://www.publiceye.org/conspire/Post911/dubious_claims.html
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1030-05.htm

The Public Eye page deals almost exclusively with what I've already called 'straw men,' meaning preposterous ideas which have caught on in the 9-11 truth movement. The author Chip Berlet keeps sticking the "logical fallacy" label on everything, when he's trading in a logical fallacy himself. When he's done kicking over every single one of those straw men and making the skeptics look like assholes -- and as regards this stuff I think they deserve it, have told them so myself -- he still hasn't addressed the core question AT ALL: did this government have a hand in whatever actually did happen? What he has done is realize the age-old purpose of the straw man trick: discredit the opponent without having to go through their whole position categorically. Of course you WOULD love this, which brings me to my final point about this guy Chip Berlet: he also has a deep need to wale an axe into the 9-11 truth crowd. He's been doing it a LOT.

As for Common Dreams, they post lots of stuff. The article you linked to was lifted from the LA Times. Here's one they published themselves:
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0910-06.htm
It reads a lot like the stuff I've been telling you. Isn't that special?

"[The media conpiracy can't suppress] stories like voter fraud, Abu Garib, Rove and CIA leaks, etc."

Oh, but right-wing doofus, the big corporate media HAS significantly omitted and/or manipulated these subjects!! That is unless you actually believe Britney Spears' new cranium piercing deserves equal time. Lyndie England has been served up on a platter as the sole sacrificial lamb with which to resolve/absolve the whole torture thing. Meanwhile what about all the other assholes in those pictures? What about the similar stuff happening elsewhere, eg Guantanamo? What about the CIA's much more disturbing policy of 'extraordinary rendition?' You hardly ever see this phrase. What about torture being a decades-old systemic problem within US military and intelligence culture? Or about this being only one aspect of their broader criminality under the Geneva Convention and Nuremberg Protocols? That's the full magnitude of this story. But instead of tackling this grand issue, our worthless press corps rolls it all up around Lyndie England and chucks it into the same 'past history' hole she's heading into, whereupon they won't look at it again until the next war, when they'll pretend it's some freaky new thing all over again.

The government/media complex did the exact same thing with Lt. William Calley 30 years ago, singling him out as the sole villain in the My Lai case and therefore of all such atrocities during that entire war. My Lai was a drop in an overflowing five-gallon bucket.

This is not media "covering both sides," this is media tossing out a single measly little crumb that represents an entire squalid underworld they've totally ignored, then magically gluing all that to the crumb so they can sweep it under the rug in public sight and then everything's okey-dokey again. Duh drool. It's exactly the sort of stunt Noam Chomsky and Ed Herman talk about in 'Manufacturing Consent': the FACSIMILE of responsible media, not the reality.

Same with Rove, who merely represents a problem a billion times larger than his doughy cellulitic ass, except in Rove's case they're not actually going to serve him up on a platter, as appetizing as that sounds. He had his hour in the spotlight, but now they've slid the spot over to John-Boy Roberts, and all the lemmings' glassy little eyes have followed right along. "Karl who?"

A REAL media, the kind of media a democracy MUST have, would set upon Rove like bull terriers. They wouldn't let people forget about him.

I will give you this, though: in the case of Rove and Abu Ghraib, they did at least put forth a token effort, which is more than I can say about an even larger story: Bush lying to get us into this war. They haven't figured out yet how to attach this one to a harmless effigy and then fire it into the sun, never to be heard from again. Therefore they've stayed as far away from the 'Downing Street Memo' fracas as possible
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2612

This is HUGE. Bush should be impeached, THEN tried for treason. Wow, it's a good thing he didn't let some intern give him a blowjob

Did you say 'election fraud?' Yeah, thank you, that's another good example
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2482

"I am showing rationale proof..."
Ya see, there you go with that word 'PROOF,' again. Bullshit!! You've selectively shown sources that corroborate what YOU want to believe, and that's ALL you've done. PROOF is a far more elusive thing

"Well moron, no one can proove anything with 100% rightous truth."
Exactly right. Bingo. Ergo agnosticism

"But all thinking people arrive at some conclusion."
No. You're using this word "conclusion" to disguise *assumptions* and *blind faith*, which are not the inevitable destination of rational thought but rather cheap substitutes used by lazy minds to fill its absence. Not knowing means not knowing, period. People with the "mommy's little genius" syndrome have a real hard time with this, but they're only the most graphic example. It extends to self-centered fucks generally....

But hey, don't let all this distract you. First things first
http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/09/1770611_comment.php#1772032

Dude, Are you sure you want anything else to do with DMH? He/she has been handing you your ass for about 4 days now. With every word you write you look more foolish.

I attended the Sept. 24th anti-war gathering in Santa Cruz and was disappointed in how much of that venue got wasted on this 9/11 conspiracy. Feverishly clutching rolls of photos of buildings coming apart, the speaker begged and implored the audience to see what few in the audience could see: controlled demolitions of buildings.

After his long presentation, he was met with sparse applause.

If Bush wanted to blow up the buildings, how did he manage to recruit 17 Saudi nationals to commit suicide for him? And how did he get Bin Laden to take credit for it later? And why did the US economy tank right after that? Was that part of Bush's plot?

Why does the anti-war movement ignore Israel's legitimate self-defense and cultivate nutcases like the one I saw in Santa Cruz with incredible claims of govt. plots?

I noted the demo only netted 110 people (I counted them!!) which, if its the largest demo since the beginning of the war had shrunk from the 7,000 the Santa Cruz Police Dept estimated on Feb 15th 2003.

Since opinion polls show Bush's approval ratings are headed for the basement, obviously ANSWER has not tapped into the core of the anti-war sentiment. My guess is that by embracing fringe causes it has turned off its major base of support.

insect: "He/she has been handing you your ass for about 4 days now."

This is diagnostic of three things:

1) You don't agree with my take on history, 9-11 being just an integral piece of that
2) My perspective on 9-11 in particular has all the piss in your bladder gushing loose inside your pants, just like it does to all the fully tamed fake-left cowards**
3) You labor under this deliciously asinine conceit that I give the vaguest FFFFUUUKKKKKK what you think of me, my opinions, or my arguments

**Peter Phillips of Project Censored said it really well ( http://www.projectcensored.org/newsflash/unanswered_questions_911.html ):

"There is a natural resistance to naysayers who continue to question the US government's version of what happened on September 11, 2001. This resistance is rooted in our tendency toward the inability to conceive of people we know as evil; instead evil ones must be others, very unlike ourselves.

"We all remember, as young children, scary locations that created deep fears. We might imagine monsters in the closet, dangers in a nighttime backyard, and creepy people in some abandoned house down the street. As we get older we build up the courage to open the closet, or walk out into the backyard to smell the night air. As adults there are still dark closets in our socio-cultural consciousness that make it difficult to even consider the possibility of certain ideas. These fearful ideas might be described as threshold concepts, in that they may be on the borders of discoverability, yet we deny even the potentiality of implied veracity — something is so evil it is completely unimaginable.

"A threshold concept facing Americans is the possibility that the 9/11 Commission Report was on many levels a cover-up for the failure of the US government to prevent the tragedy. Deeper past the threshold is the idea that the report failed to address sources of assistance to the terrorists. Investigations into this area might have led to a conclusion that elements of various governments — including our own — not only knew about the attacks in advance, but may have helped facilitate their implementation. The idea that someone in the Government of the United States may have contributed support to such a horrific attack is inconceivable to many. It is a threshold concept that is so frightening that it brings up a state of mind akin to complete unbelief.

***********************************************

I agree with Phillips, except I think he's being far too kind: muddle-brained shit-eating coward "leftists" who don't have the spine to face the full possibilities of 9-11 are as much of a scourge as assholes like DMH. Fuck off, go ahead and defect to the American Nazi Party. You're already there emotionally, you just don't have the guts or honesty to even face your own true nature. The left doesn't need nascent Stasi ratfinks.

insect: "He/she has been handing you your ass for about 4 days now."

This is diagnostic of three things:

1) You don't agree with my take on history, 9-11 being just an integral piece of that
2) My perspective on 9-11 in particular has all the piss in your bladder gushing loose inside your pants, just like it does to all the fully tamed fake-left cowards**
3) You labor under this deliciously asinine conceit that I give the vaguest FFFFUUUKKKKKK what you think of me, my opinions, or my arguments

**Peter Phillips of Project Censored said it really well ( http://www.projectcensored.org/newsflash/unanswered_questions_911.html ):

"There is a natural resistance to naysayers who continue to question the US government's version of what happened on September 11, 2001. This resistance is rooted in our tendency toward the inability to conceive of people we know as evil; instead evil ones must be others, very unlike ourselves.

"We all remember, as young children, scary locations that created deep fears. We might imagine monsters in the closet, dangers in a nighttime backyard, and creepy people in some abandoned house down the street. As we get older we build up the courage to open the closet, or walk out into the backyard to smell the night air. As adults there are still dark closets in our socio-cultural consciousness that make it difficult to even consider the possibility of certain ideas. These fearful ideas might be described as threshold concepts, in that they may be on the borders of discoverability, yet we deny even the potentiality of implied veracity — something is so evil it is completely unimaginable.

"A threshold concept facing Americans is the possibility that the 9/11 Commission Report was on many levels a cover-up for the failure of the US government to prevent the tragedy. Deeper past the threshold is the idea that the report failed to address sources of assistance to the terrorists. Investigations into this area might have led to a conclusion that elements of various governments — including our own — not only knew about the attacks in advance, but may have helped facilitate their implementation. The idea that someone in the Government of the United States may have contributed support to such a horrific attack is inconceivable to many. It is a threshold concept that is so frightening that it brings up a state of mind akin to complete unbelief.

***********************************************

I agree with Phillips, except I think he's being far too kind: muddle-brained shit-eating coward "leftists" who don't have the spine to face the full possibilities of 9-11 are as much of a scourge as assholes like DMH. Fuck off, go ahead and defect to the American Nazi Party. You're already there emotionally, you just don't have the guts or honesty to even face your own true nature. The left doesn't need nascent Stasi ratfinks.

Thanks for giving me the clearest vindication yet of this:

"It's unheard of for the zionist mind-cops to appear in threads not relevant to Israel, zionism, and all the supportive mythologies. If 9-11 is of "only incidental interest" to them why are they now popping up? Why do they care enough about this subject to even look at the top article? Or is 9-11 their new premier 'supportive mythology?' eeYUPP."

and this:

Nobody said it better than Netanyahu on Sept. 11, 2001: "[The attack is] very good! Well, it's not good, but it will generate immediate sympathy [for Israel]"

Yeah, that's the lovely mind of a zionist for you. Only Israel matters, everyone else can scream and writhe in a prison of their own fear if that's what it takes. If BB Brain Beck-O actually went to any of the 9/24 demonstrations, you can bet your last penny it was to

1) participate in the pro-Israel counterdemonstrations (boy they're getting real open with their fascism now aren't they?) and/or

2) take notes / write down names on anyone with an anti-Israel placard, pin, etc.

9/11 Conspiracy Discussed on Iranian TV

The following are excerpts from a debate on Iran's Jaam-e Jam 1 TV about 9/11, with filmmaker Nader Talebsadeh and senior correspondent Bizhan Nowbaveh Vatan. The debate aired on September 13, 2005. TO VIEW THIS CLIP, VISIT: http://memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=868.


Host: "9/11 left many unclear issues, such as: How come the thousands of Jews in the towers decided not to come [to work that day]? Was the Pentagon hit by a plane or a missile? A lot has been said about these issues. At that moment, on that day, and even in that year, public opinion was incapable of accepting these unclear issues.

"Now we are being taken back to the past. French TV is not letting it go. After Thierry Meyssan's book The Big Lie, it seems that as things become clearer, the obscurities only increase. You, as a documentary filmmaker... Documentary filmmakers are now dealing with 9/11. The filmmaker enters the fray, and watches the footage of that day frame by frame. What do you, as a documentary filmmaker, think about it?"

Nader Talebzadeh, filmmaker: "In the name of Allah the Compassionate, the Merciful, 9/11 is a good starting point for clarifying any matter in today's world. But from whose perspective? From the perspective of a Muslim or non-Muslim filmmaker? This is very important. 9/11 has not yet been dealt with by a Muslim filmmaker. They have not yet been allowed to enter this field. Al-Jazeera will probably not make a film about it, because the Qatari government is somehow coordinated with CNN. It somehow constitutes a base of America."

Bizhan Nowbaveh Vatan, senior correspondent: "It has no motive to do it."

Talebzadeh: "Right. So who would want to make such a film? If we want to do this, it would be a very great challenge... A very big struggle, if we can do it at all. There are very important questions about 9/11 that could be developed very well by a Muslim filmmaker.

"From my point of view, it is unlikely that the French would want to deal with the question of how 4,000 Jewish workers from the same building were absent simultaneously. In other words, 4,000 people were contacted and were asked not to come to the building that day. Somebody needs to resolve that unclear issue first.

"Somebody also needs to resolve the following unclear issue: Who were the passengers of the planes that hit the buildings? Where are their names? Who were the passengers who hit the Pentagon?"

Host: "The passenger list was never published."

Talebzadeh: "Somebody needs to explain: A building called Building No. 7 had almost 60 stories, and it did not catch fire..."

Host: "How did it collapse?"

Talebzadeh: "Yes, this was a building made entirely of steel. In the 100 years since they started to construct steel buildings, there has been no precedent for a steel building catching fire and collapsing. How come, six hours after the second tower collapsed, this building collapsed within six seconds, without having caught fire? It collapsed in a controlled manner."

Host: "The firefighters who were interviewed it was broadcast on French TV said they clearly heard a few explosions."

Talebzadeh: "In fact, this was a controlled demolition. These are important questions. Why did the U.S. president announce that same day that he wants the blame to somehow be placed on Iraq? What does this mean? Afghanistan had not yet been occupied. How come, two days later, plans were raised to attack Afghanistan and Iraq? In such an event you are not even supposed to know who you are. You're supposed to be in total shock. These are big questions. They are even greater than in the Kennedy assassination. Inquiries are now being made into this matter. There were very unclear matters in this affair, which were never resolved.

"The dimensions of destruction on September 11 are apocalyptic. During the week of 9/11, Lance Morrow published an article in Time magazine. He said: 'In fact, the temple of the West has collapsed. The cathedral of the West has collapsed.' Who brought down this cathedral? Surely two or three people, who could not even fly a crop duster, could not have led a 747 plane into the Pentagon at a low altitude."

[...]

Vatan: "During 9/11, Mr. Khadem Al-Melle and I were in New York. He was slightly further away. I was right next to the events. I could not believe what I was seeing there. Nor could I believe the news we were hearing. I saw that at first they said five or six planes were hijacked. Then it became four. Afterwards they said that out of the four planes, two had hit the WTC..."

Host: "And then one crashed in Pennsylvania."

Vatan: "As for Pennsylvania, which is near Camp David... One plane came and hit the Pentagon, and you mentioned that this was not clear at all. If this was such a large plane, like the 767 which hit the Pentagon, is that at all possible? Could it have flown so low? This is another matter.

"As for the fourth plane, it was announced that U.S. Air Force pilots had managed to hit it with a missile. I myself heard on ABC, CBS, MSNBC, and CNN... This is documented. But on the other hand, some of the media channels immediately said that if there was a need to intercept a passenger plane, this surely requires a direct order from the U.S. president. They themselves said that the U.S. president was in the shelter. This created a problem. For the U.S. government, this created a new crisis. They quickly changed the scenario. No footage was broadcast from the fourth plane, except for the firefighters, who were seen from a distance. You didn't see any images from there."

Host: "They said there was a confrontation inside the plane."

Vatan: "Ah, well said. They said that there was a confrontation inside the plane, and that one of the passengers even talked to his wife and said that they were going to confront the hijackers. This man's wife received a prize and a medal at the annual ceremony in Congress.

"What you said about the absence of 4,000 Jews from the WTC… After all, this is the world center of the Jews. Everybody knows that. If we say the Zionist lobby is based on the economy of America, and that these [towers] were the symbol of America's economy where were those Jews, and on a Tuesday no less?

"Yesterday I had an interview. You probably heard that Muhammad 'Atta the leader of these terrorist incidents... It was said that six months after the events and after all the airlines and flight schools were closed, especially to Muslims, an invitation reached Muhammad 'Atta's home. That is what was reported in the American press. The invitation informed him that he had been accepted for flight training."

Host: "When?"

Vatan: "Exactly six months after 9/11.

[...]

"Nader probably knows better than me. Much of what you see about the strength of American police, the Pentagon, and the army are courtesy of Hollywood."

Host: "Yes, Nader said this morning that the New Orleans Police was so afraid that..."

Talebzadeh: "They ran away."

Its bad enough to get your information from the American mass media. Its worse to get it from the Iranian mass media.

9/11 Conspiracy Discussed on Iranian TV

The following are excerpts from a debate on Iran's Jaam-e Jam 1 TV about 9/11, with filmmaker Nader Talebsadeh and senior correspondent Bizhan Nowbaveh Vatan. The debate aired on September 13, 2005. TO VIEW THIS CLIP, VISIT: http://memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=868.


Host: "9/11 left many unclear issues, such as: How come the thousands of Jews in the towers decided not to come [to work that day]? Was the Pentagon hit by a plane or a missile? A lot has been said about these issues. At that moment, on that day, and even in that year, public opinion was incapable of accepting these unclear issues.

"Now we are being taken back to the past. French TV is not letting it go. After Thierry Meyssan's book The Big Lie, it seems that as things become clearer, the obscurities only increase. You, as a documentary filmmaker... Documentary filmmakers are now dealing with 9/11. The filmmaker enters the fray, and watches the footage of that day frame by frame. What do you, as a documentary filmmaker, think about it?"

Nader Talebzadeh, filmmaker: "In the name of Allah the Compassionate, the Merciful, 9/11 is a good starting point for clarifying any matter in today's world. But from whose perspective? From the perspective of a Muslim or non-Muslim filmmaker? This is very important. 9/11 has not yet been dealt with by a Muslim filmmaker. They have not yet been allowed to enter this field. Al-Jazeera will probably not make a film about it, because the Qatari government is somehow coordinated with CNN. It somehow constitutes a base of America."

Bizhan Nowbaveh Vatan, senior correspondent: "It has no motive to do it."

Talebzadeh: "Right. So who would want to make such a film? If we want to do this, it would be a very great challenge... A very big struggle, if we can do it at all. There are very important questions about 9/11 that could be developed very well by a Muslim filmmaker.

"From my point of view, it is unlikely that the French would want to deal with the question of how 4,000 Jewish workers from the same building were absent simultaneously. In other words, 4,000 people were contacted and were asked not to come to the building that day. Somebody needs to resolve that unclear issue first.

"Somebody also needs to resolve the following unclear issue: Who were the passengers of the planes that hit the buildings? Where are their names? Who were the passengers who hit the Pentagon?"

Host: "The passenger list was never published."

Talebzadeh: "Somebody needs to explain: A building called Building No. 7 had almost 60 stories, and it did not catch fire..."

Host: "How did it collapse?"

Talebzadeh: "Yes, this was a building made entirely of steel. In the 100 years since they started to construct steel buildings, there has been no precedent for a steel building catching fire and collapsing. How come, six hours after the second tower collapsed, this building collapsed within six seconds, without having caught fire? It collapsed in a controlled manner."

Host: "The firefighters who were interviewed it was broadcast on French TV said they clearly heard a few explosions."

Talebzadeh: "In fact, this was a controlled demolition. These are important questions. Why did the U.S. president announce that same day that he wants the blame to somehow be placed on Iraq? What does this mean? Afghanistan had not yet been occupied. How come, two days later, plans were raised to attack Afghanistan and Iraq? In such an event you are not even supposed to know who you are. You're supposed to be in total shock. These are big questions. They are even greater than in the Kennedy assassination. Inquiries are now being made into this matter. There were very unclear matters in this affair, which were never resolved.

"The dimensions of destruction on September 11 are apocalyptic. During the week of 9/11, Lance Morrow published an article in Time magazine. He said: 'In fact, the temple of the West has collapsed. The cathedral of the West has collapsed.' Who brought down this cathedral? Surely two or three people, who could not even fly a crop duster, could not have led a 747 plane into the Pentagon at a low altitude."

[...]

Vatan: "During 9/11, Mr. Khadem Al-Melle and I were in New York. He was slightly further away. I was right next to the events. I could not believe what I was seeing there. Nor could I believe the news we were hearing. I saw that at first they said five or six planes were hijacked. Then it became four. Afterwards they said that out of the four planes, two had hit the WTC..."

Host: "And then one crashed in Pennsylvania."

Vatan: "As for Pennsylvania, which is near Camp David... One plane came and hit the Pentagon, and you mentioned that this was not clear at all. If this was such a large plane, like the 767 which hit the Pentagon, is that at all possible? Could it have flown so low? This is another matter.

"As for the fourth plane, it was announced that U.S. Air Force pilots had managed to hit it with a missile. I myself heard on ABC, CBS, MSNBC, and CNN... This is documented. But on the other hand, some of the media channels immediately said that if there was a need to intercept a passenger plane, this surely requires a direct order from the U.S. president. They themselves said that the U.S. president was in the shelter. This created a problem. For the U.S. government, this created a new crisis. They quickly changed the scenario. No footage was broadcast from the fourth plane, except for the firefighters, who were seen from a distance. You didn't see any images from there."

Host: "They said there was a confrontation inside the plane."

Vatan: "Ah, well said. They said that there was a confrontation inside the plane, and that one of the passengers even talked to his wife and said that they were going to confront the hijackers. This man's wife received a prize and a medal at the annual ceremony in Congress.

"What you said about the absence of 4,000 Jews from the WTC… After all, this is the world center of the Jews. Everybody knows that. If we say the Zionist lobby is based on the economy of America, and that these [towers] were the symbol of America's economy where were those Jews, and on a Tuesday no less?

"Yesterday I had an interview. You probably heard that Muhammad 'Atta the leader of these terrorist incidents... It was said that six months after the events and after all the airlines and flight schools were closed, especially to Muslims, an invitation reached Muhammad 'Atta's home. That is what was reported in the American press. The invitation informed him that he had been accepted for flight training."

Host: "When?"

Vatan: "Exactly six months after 9/11.

[...]

"Nader probably knows better than me. Much of what you see about the strength of American police, the Pentagon, and the army are courtesy of Hollywood."

Host: "Yes, Nader said this morning that the New Orleans Police was so afraid that..."

Talebzadeh: "They ran away."

Hey idiot,
How can someone be both a Zionist and a Nazi? You need to pick one or the other. I can almost see you foaming at the mouth through the computer. Oh my God, You are Scottish! I didn't know you were embarassing both the US and Scotland. Does anyone know other posts this guy has done? I just can't get enough.

"To pursue the unattainable is insanity, yet the thoughtless can never refrain from doing so." - Marcus Aurelius from Book Five of the Meditations

Inside job indeed....planned INSIDE the Mosque

>> If Bush wanted to blow up the buildings, how did he manage to recruit 17 Saudi nationals to commit suicide for him?

The same way you'd recruit a white boy in the US to blow up a Federal Building - you trick them. How hard is that to imagine, Becky? Which really makes me wonder about you . . .


>>And why did the US economy tank right after that? Was that part of Bush's plot?

The right-wing is looting the country as fast as they can and tanking the economy is part of the plan - with no more infrastructure, the rich don't have to pay for the poor, libraries, public schools, hospitals, etc.

But Bush gained FAR FAR more than that from 9.11. As did the insurance industry, whose rates DOUBLED after 9.11.


>>Why does the anti-war movement ignore Israel's legitimate self-defense and cultivate nutcases like the one I saw in Santa Cruz with incredible claims of govt. plots?

If you think it's so bizarre that the US would blow up it's own buildings to get into Iraq to destroy Israel's enemies, get the oil and funnel that wealth directly into Texas, then I've got a bridge to sell you . . . .


>> I noted the demo only netted 110 people (I counted them!!)

That's about 105 more than I'd have guessed would be there when the important and massive demo was only a short ways away in SF.

Becky, I'm sorry to hear you're having such a hard time imagining the demolition of the towers could be real, but frankly, since you're so skewed on the issue of Israel, I'm not surprised that you're closed to most new ideas.

By working for them on salary, like Fieval Polkes:

"Von Bolschwing was deeply involved in intelligence work--and in the persecution of innocent people -- for most of his adult life. He had joined the Nazi party at the age of twenty-three, in 1932, and had become an SD (party security service) informer almost immediately. In the years leading up to 1939, von Bolschwing became a leading Nazi intelligence agent in the Middle East, where he worked under cover as an importer in Jerusalem. One of his first brushes with Nazi espionage work, according to captured SS records, was a role in creating a covert agreement between the Nazis and Fieval Polkes, a commander of the militant Zionist organization Haganah, whom von Bolschwing had met through business associates in the Mideast. Under the arrangement the Haganah was permitted to run recruiting and training camps for Jewish youth inside Germany. These young people, as well as certain other Jews driven out of Germany by the Nazis, were encouraged to emigrate to Palestine. Polkes and the Haganah, in return, agreed to provide the SS with intelligence about British affairs in Palestine. Captured German records claim that Polkes believed the increasingly brutal Nazi persecution of the Jews could be turned to Zionist advantage -- at least temporarily -- by compelling Jewish immigration to Palestine, and that the Haganah commander's sole source of income, moreover, was secret funds from the SS.

It was in the course of these negotiations that the young Baron von Bolschwing gained the trust of Adolf Eichmann, who was at the time an obscure SS functionary specializing in intelligence on Freemasonry and Jewish affairs for the Nazi party. The acquaintance was more than a casual one, for von Bolschwing went on to play a central role in arranging conferences between Eichmann and Polkes in Vienna and Cairo, contacts that established Eichmann as the SS's Jewish affairs expert and laid the foundation for his later career as the architect of the extermination of European Jewry.”

-- Blowback : America's Recruitment of Nazis and Its Effects on the Cold War by Christopher Simpson, ISBN: 1555841066, p 253

Simpson’s source on this is:

Sicherheitsdienst des RFSS SD-Hauptamt, Palastinareise Bericht (U.S. designation no. 173-b-16-14/61), now at Frames 2936012-2936068, microfilm roll 411, T-175, RG 242, NA, Washington, D.C.

And remember, if one Jew did it, then all Jews should be considered guilty. That's now narcissie's mind words, and yours should too.

@%<

Now the govt. planned the Oklahoma bombing. This is getting deep indeed.

Good simple links to start off reading about Mcveigh if anyone is interested. We can see these nuts developing right before our eyes.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial9/mcveigh/
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,109478,00.html
(compare this interview to actual trial transcripts if you have time)
http://www.courttv.com/news/mcveigh_special/

P.S. When are just going to come straight out and blame Jews for 9/11? I know you want to real bad. After all that is just about the oldest conspiracy theory of all time.

This is a straw man. I said no such thing. He knows it. I know it. You know it. Anyone who knows how a scroll bar works knows it.

Someone asked a question. I answered. That's all that happened. Sctoll up and see for yourself. Anything else is Zionist slander.

See how idiot's mind works.
One Jew. An obscure member of a fringe org., works with Nazi informant in 1939 (maybe). Therefore he is a Nazi. Therefore he accepted all Nazi ideals. Therefore someone can be a contradiction (i.e Nazi/Zionist). How convincing.

It was the Hagganah. Today it is known as the IDF.

If you work for the SS on salary, you're a Nazi.

Nutjob CONSPIRARCY freaks believe all that is obvious is wrong and all thats important is hidden because its a CONSPIRACY! Come on raving nut job, tell us the one about the Illuminati again!

narcissie: "This is a straw man. I said no such thing."

But it's clearly how you think, and it's clearly your intention to imply it as emphatically as you can while still clinging to your figleaf delusion that you aren't just as much a gutter goosestepper as David Duke.

@%<

Who is narcissie? Is that this turd's real name? Have all of these posts with different names been the same person? Maybe there really is a conspiracy. A conspiracy of one man's stupidity.

Who is narcissie? Is that this turd's real name? Have all of these posts with different names been the same person? Maybe there really is a conspiracy. A conspiracy of one man's stupidity.

Most of those are one disturbed man's posts. The rest are from people tormenting him. Its a sport around here. The turd refuses to use the same handle consistently- we don't know why.

"Now he's claiming he can read my mind"

Exactly. You've gotten exactly that predictable. You've shown us everything you've got, and it ain't much. In fact, it's pretty much nothing. And it takes less time to read than the average issue of People magazine.

@%<

"It's unheard of for the zionist mind-cops to appear in threads not relevant to Israel, zionism, and all the supportive mythologies. If 9-11 is of "only incidental interest" to them why are they now popping up? Why do they care enough about this subject to even look at the top article? Or is 9-11 their new premier 'supportive mythology?' eeYUPP."

First of all, it's unfortunate that nessie let DMH get away with slipping in that classic canard, zionists = ALL Jews. More motivated mutation of meaning, hmmmm... All it takes to make his charge ridiculous is to throw out that telltale slimy trick. Then there's DMH's next post, titled 'P.S.' Careful DMH, you keep jumping eagerly for those zio-canards you're going to blow your own cover!

'Wiggy Boy, the relentless 'that was anti-Semitic' word-twister: "And remember, if one Jew did it, then all Jews should be considered guilty."

That is definitely not what nessie said, nor do I think it was implied in any way. Referring to Jews as members of the German Nazi party may be a bit much, but there are disturbing convergences, like the friendship between Leo Strauss and prominent Nazi Party jurist Carl Schmitt. Strauss' icky Nazi-like philosophy stayed with him throughout life, and is now best seen in the 'Neocons' (Wolfowitz etc) who were his favored disciples. There's other stuff too if you saps want me to get into it.

The real punch of 'ZIONISTS are Nazis,' though, is that it addresses the blatant fascist current in zionist political culture. All sorts of parellels are visible and don't need describing to anyone that matters here. This modestly convoluted equation is Nazis=fascists=zionists. This is a lot less ridiculous than the Israel critics=anti-Semites=Nazis/goosesteppers/David Dukes equation constantly being traded in by the bark-down brigade. If one of you clowns would like to expand this last equation I would be most pleased, as this would allow me to eviscerate your bullshit in front of everybody yet again

And now yet another zionist head pops out of the slime-pool: "My action group..."

Uh-huh, and what "action group" would that be? The CAMERA/MEMRI/Honest-Reporting grassroots bark-down network? eeYUPP. Why don't you jackasses invite ALL your friends to Indybay? You could scream down every Israel-relevant thread RREEEEEELL Guh-Guh-GOOOOOD that way (pant pant)! Go ahead, make your whole game totally obvious. I would LUV it

Yid and PJ are DEFINITELY either the same guy or joined at the hip! Ruling this out makes the following time/language convergence astronomically improbable:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FROM http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/09/1770611.php

Proud Jew
by Shabbat Sholom! Friday, Sep. 30, 2005 at 4:00 PM

Shabbat Sholom!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FROM http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/09/1764517.php:

SchtarkerYid
by Shabbat Sholom! Friday, Sep. 30, 2005 at 4:00 PM

Shabbat Sholom to all my chaverim out there!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Isn't that cool?!? Smooth move Yidiot!! I can't wait to see you try to slither away from this one!!

Uh-huh, and what "action group" would that be?

Just some CAL undergrads....Very loose, very grassroots. And with the impetuousness of youth, nudge wink, know what I mean?

The CAMERA/MEMRI/Honest-Reporting grassroots bark-down network? eeYUPP. Why don't you jackasses invite ALL your friends to Indybay?

We've been here for quite a while.. We've been here since the Jerusalem 19 bus. Remember this?

"What are we going to do to stop this rally? Should the bus be met at MLK park or at the city line? By what route will it enter Berkeley? Where will it be stored the night before? How well is it guarded? By whom? How well are they armed? With what? Who are the organizers? Do we know where they live? Do we know what their cars look like? If not, why not? Is there an excuse for our ignorance? What is it?"

We haven't forgotten your attempts at intimidation- your death threats to an 80 year old Holocaust survivor. We are here and we are not going away.
.

You could scream down every Israel-relevant thread RREEEEEELL Guh-Guh-GOOOOOD that way (pant pant)! Go ahead, make your whole game totally obvious. I would LUV it

Why are we not surprised?

"...your death threats to an 80 year old Holocaust survivor."

A classic violins a-screeching zionist slander if I've ever seen one

The short list of flaws with your argument:

1. Plot was said to be small. Now has grown to include literally millions of people in and outside the US
2. Plot is all powerfull to the point that it controls all mainstram media in and outside most of the US. However, plot cannot control small underground papers and websites.
3. Plot requires absolute maximum risk for little if any rewards for the evildoers.
4. No serious scientific study has shown any forensic evidence supporting plot.
5. Plot requires at the very minimum of hundreds of people to particpate. They did so successfully and with no leaks. (oh except for your sources)
6. Plot requires destruction of one of the symbols of capitalism and the financial benefits it produces.
7. Plot requires that we ignore or disprove that Al-quada admitted to doing it, has continued to admit, said they were going to it, gloat about, and that major sources around the world accept this.
8. Plot requires active cover-up by all federal and local law enforcement and politicians in US.
9. Plot requires that 9/11 commission was absolute fraud. Even though many of the politicians involved hate GW Bush.
10. Plot requires killing thousands of American citizens on American soil. Plot also risked killing people in the Pentagon that must be involved in the plot in order for it to be successful.
11. Plotters must convience a number of people to kill themselves. (maybe they promised half the $ now, then half after)
12. Plot requires that victims families lie about phonecalls and messages from loved ones.
13. Plot is so powerful that it can black itself out of mainstream press, however plot is helpless in covering up other embarassing stories.

There are many, many more if you want to keep this up.

(1.) There are more than one argument. By subsuming them DMH either displays his own ignorance or seeks to exploit yours.

(2.) Logic dictates that we should look for flaws in the official conspiracy theory first. If we find even one, the theory is disproven. Many have been found, but it only takes one. Whether any other theories can be proven or not has no bearing. Either the official theory hold water or it doesn't. Period. It doesn't.

(3.) DMH want you to trust the government not to lie to you. If you thinks that's a wise thing to do, you haven't read enough history. Start catching up now. You have a long way to go.

>>1. Plot was said to be small. Now has grown to include literally millions of people in and outside the US

Who says it includes millions? Only DMH, trying to confuse readers. The plot could actually only require a handful of the people, Many others could unwittingly support the action and contribute while believing they were doing someone patriotic, for the country, or even just their job. It's not hard to figure out.

Now, aside from perhaps the weather, why on earth would I want to continue discussing anything with anyone whose case of America-is-God boneheadosis is as severe as yours? In your best Bill O'Reilly manner (you're that asshole's biggest fan, aren't you?) you STILL haven't incorporated a thing I've said into your triumphant reactionary bullshit. You can't take the axe away from your grindstone long enough to build a short list that doesn't repeat the same idea over and over 13 different ways. Shit, you don't even have the basic decency to address a simple question that's been repeated to you, now for the third time, even when your own equivalent question has been answered.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What exactly do you do for a living DMH? Would you be able to tell us even if you wanted to? Just tell us the category then. Law enforcement? Intel? How about income, how much do you make a year? You know, I brought 'motivated cognition' to your attention, but obviously it's just another subject you'd rather not think about. That's a pity, because I think in your case it may be exceptionally relevant

http://www.wam.umd.edu/~hannahk/bulletin.pdf
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

reboot...

Pretty nice weather we're having today, eh? What's tomorrow supposed to be like, I haven't seen the report?

The strategic/capitalist case for conquering Iraq is pretty obvious to anyone who can think clearly about this stuff. The equivalent case for Afghanistan requires a little more digging, but I'll save you the effort and take you straight to the gold

Testimony By
John J. Maresca
Vice President, International Relations,
UNOCAL Corporation

To House Committee On International Relations,
Submmittee On Asia And The Pacific
February 12, 1998
Washington, D.C.

http://www.sumeria.net/politics/maresca.html

excerpt:
"[Afghanistan] has been involved in bitter warfare for almost two decades. The territory across which the pipeline would extend is controlled by the Taliban, an Islamic movement that is not recognized as a government by most other nations. From the outset, we have made it clear that construction of our proposed pipeline cannot begin until a recognized government is in place that has the confidence of governments, lenders and our company.

[***REGIME CHANGE****REGIME CHANGE*** WHOOP! WHOOP! WHOOP!]
[***REGIME CHANGE****REGIME CHANGE*** WHOOP! WHOOP! WHOOP!]

"In spite of this, a [pipeline] route through Afghanistan appears to be the best option with the fewest technical obstacles. It is the shortest route to the sea and has relatively favorable terrain for a pipeline. The route through Afghanistan is the one that would bring Central Asian oil closest to Asian markets and thus would be the cheapest in terms of transporting the oil.

And now here's the kicker:

Pipeline Politics Taint US War
By Salim Muwakkil
Chicago Tribune
March 18, 2002

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/natres/oil/2002/0318pipeline.htm

“If one looks at the map of the big American bases created for the war, one is struck by the fact that they are completely identical to the route of the projected oil pipeline to the Indian Ocean.”

So there it is, plain as day. Political observers were saying years ago that the 21st would be the century of the resource wars, and they were more right than they knew

Uri Avnery's piece on the same subject:

http://www.counterpunch.org/avneryoil.html

1. I already answered your question about what I do for a living.
2. The fact that you would accuse me of working in intel multiple times is itself evidence of your paranoia and stupidity.
3. The fact that you would ask how much $ I make is a further display of your ignorance. I guess you hope I make alot of money, therefore showing that I have sold out to the establishment. That's an oldschool trick and a hypocrasy that I thought the left gave up long ago.
4. The whole reason I continued this argument is because I had hoped that someone who was willing to make such outlandish charges would have some type of proof to back them up. Also, I hoped to actually find one that was either a. not mentally ill b. had some type of validity. I am still searching.
5. What I did find was a very ill and irrational (and it appears very well known to be so) scared little man. Rest assured that I will continue to monitor your actions in order to call out your misguided distortions (not lies because I think you actually believe your own drivel) . Until then, I hope the weather is nice.

"That's an oldschool trick and a hypocrasy that I thought the left gave up long ago."
Are you generalizing from a discussion with a few crazy people to all of the left?

"I had hoped that someone who was willing to make such outlandish charges would have some type of proof to back them up."
You went to a site where anyone can post, found a post that sounded carzy and are now complaining that those arguing with you are crazy.

"I will continue to monitor your actions in order to call out your misguided distortions"
You might as well go to SF can follow around Frank Shu and yell out corrects to all his UFO claims. Taking a crazy person that seriously is itself a sign that something is wrong.

Point by point

1) Okay, I went back and found it. I didn't bother slogging the first time through a post that obviously consisted entirely of seething hate-driven condemnation, of which you're about to get a MAJOR dose, except it won't be the Bircher flavor.

2) I didn't accuse you of shit, word-twisting billionaire-fellating class parasite asshole. I ASKED A QUESTION. If you'll bother to think back, I also "accused" you of being in law enforcement, and a moment of mental work will show I wasn't far off. Like the blue-clad head-smashers who make our streets safe for your tonsil-massaging friends, and like the magistrates on high whose throats are the silkiest most welcoming vaginas money can buy, you also have an obvious money- & career-driven motive for adopting the "rule of law" as your personal deity.

It's not that you're right about these people being harmless, it's that you IDENTIFY with them totally because, you see, you're as entwined as any of them in a system that keeps paying for your Jaguar, cabin cruiser, and nanny. That's all your "convictions" really are. Just greed. Oh, and ego of course.

At least a common hoor doesn't suppose she's Mother Teresa. It's that honesty I respect, and the endlessly preening credentialist/careerist/classist mentality that I loathe with warrior intensity. You people are solving NOTHING; you are "The Problem's" precise locus and origin

3. Asking about your income is neither ignorance nor hypocrisy, and if it really is "old school" then it never should have been relegated to that because it's exactly diagnostic of your entire mentality. It pinpoints your precise location in the class food chain, which in turn establishes how many people in the global economic order you feed upon like a giant puke-inducing leech. Based on your career choice this could be anywhere between 1,000 and 100,000,000.

You better hope heaven and hell aren't real, because if they are you'll be one sizzling popping screaming motherfucker. But then I could tell that just from your politics.

4. "I hoped to find [a 9-11 skeptic who] was either a. not mentally ill b. had some type of validity"

This is absolutely your most blatant lie. You entered this thread in full hostile bloom, itching for a fight, actively alienating anyone who disagreed, expressing your unalloyed hatred for 9-11 skepticism and for the left generally

"Just when I think radical lefties can't make bigger fools out of themselves than they already have, they go do something like this and raise the bar for everyone. I do not even know where to begin."

On this subject your mind is closed tight against any possibility of validity, or you would discover it on your own. You can puke that bassinet talk to yourself, but don't try it with me. The soulless zombie stink of a self-deluded liar is a thing my nose detects from five counties upwind. Goodness nose it stays attuned

The hostility, no the actual HATRED, you feel is exquisitely diagnostic. It reveals the real home of your interpretations, welling up as they do from a level far below rationality. Your capacity to examine 9-11 in an unbiased criminological manner has been totally subsumed by the baby sense of threat 9-11 induced in you and by your need to believe in George Bush & his Empire as the Big Daddies that will save you. I know you well; I see clots of your pathetic coward soulmates on every streetcorner. You're all doomed, defeated already in the only way anyone ever is -- by the weird scuttling THING that dwells in that place where a robust soul should be found.

Your counterparts can be seen in every empire in history. In 1930s Germany they were the scared, greedy petit bourgeois who avidly swept Hitler along because they knew he would ruthlessly protect their privileges. Bush speaks to you just the same way Hitler spoke to them, and the truly great tragedy of WWII is that not every pig like you became a bubbling carbon smear on a sidewalk in Dresden, and that meanwhile perfectly decent people DID. You are American to the bone, the genetic end-product of 20 generations of Indian-murdering class-climbing scum

5. What I did find was a very ill and irrational ... scared little man.

Oh, I'm not scared. I'd rather meet death today than be truly broken by fear like you

And as for the people who "know me well," EVERY SINGLE ONE visits this site ONLY to scream down any and all criticism of Israel.

"Rest assured I will continue to monitor your actions in order to call out your misguided distortions..."

A) You didn't dig into ANYTHING I SAID in a serious forensic manner, you just danced around and around playing shallow smear games. Everyone here knows this signature well...

B) Well gee, that quote DOES sound familiar! Ties right in with the obvious latent fascism too

http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/10/1772185_comment.php#1772326

...is that like so many people who have a framed accredited certificate of geniushood hanging on their office wall...

you're not

You're just another lemming, only fatter than most

Confront the evidence. Educate yourself.

There are good answers to all of your questions. Do the research yourself. The truth is out there. Look for the facts, not any preconceived notions. Question authority. Just because YOU may be honest does not mean that your (un)elected officials are.

Just because there are people who "felt" and saw a plane does not mean that it was a plane that did the damage.

WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY?

WHY DID THEY DO IT

WHY AS NOBODY ASKED THAT QUESTION

DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT THEY JUST WANTED A WAR.....

WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY ?

OR WAS IT JUST TO MAKE UP FOR DADDYS MISTAKE .