Kicking Military Recruiters off San Francisco State University

Shut down the war machine! Soon Halliburton and Bechtel will only be able to hire mercenaries to fight the dirty wars if they can get guys stupid enough to do it.

Also, let's think about no taxes to the federal gov.It is only going into the war machine and privatizing everything.

Thanks goes out to all of you!

What do you think these people are accomplishing? They think they are helping stop the war, all they are really doing is help weaken our military forces. The same forces that YOU and all these other idiots would want to have save your asses if America were attacked. If people stopped joining the military today, tommorrow there would be a draft, good bye VOLUNTEER military, thanks to the anti-war dummies. Keep up the good work.

The economic (poverty) draft now in effect has the benefit of presenting itself as "voluntary." This perception of freedom is pivotal in a society as fractured--and just beneath the surface, discontented--as America is today.

This is why the scum who rule America will do just about anything to avoid instituting a military draft--they know the shit will hit the fan if they do.

You mean like when Bin Laden attacked the US and the US went to war with Iraq while letting him get away? The US military doesnt seem to be anything to those who attacked the US and instead are beating up a former US puppet that was given military aid to fight Iran back when it was the enemy of the day. Saddam hated Islamists and tortured and killed them so I guess the military is fighting for our freedom by giving Bin Laden one more country to operate in?

First off, I am in the US Military. I was not destitute when I joined the service, I was a college student and I had no problems paying for school, and in fact I am still a college student. Your so-called economic draft is a bunch of crap. We have not forgotten about Bin Laden, I think you guys have been listening/reading too much lefty propaganda. What the hell do you guys think you know about our day to day operations? You know jack, thats what. You think you're taking a stand against the war by attacking our military, its a completely stupid way to think. As service members, we DONT make policy, we just enforce it. We follow the orders of those appointed over us, thats it. I am not %100 happy with the current situation, but I took an oath and Im going to stand by it. If you think a draft isnt possible, or they are scared of it, keep dreaming. Maybe if you ended up in Iraq your perceptions of this war, and what we are doing over there, would change. Good luck trying to change the world, youre not making a damn bit of difference though.

Chris, you're a walking, talking demonstration of why American elites will do just about anything to avoid implementing a draft.

The benefit of the non-draft military is that it's composed of men and women who view their relationship to the armed forces as consensual--therefore they are apt to "chin up" and *take* whatever crap is dished-out...after all, they made an "agreement", "nobody was forcing them to join," and "now they gotta serve their time." This holds true even for the many people in the military who join primarily for economic reasons. (Indeed, your suggestion that you joined for purely patriotic reasons is the classic macho posture volunteer recruits are pressured to adopt--and adopt, many do.)

Suffice to say, "voluntary" enlistees--like you--are far more likely to act like sheep than are drafted enlistees.

But don't take my word for it--just listen to your boss, D. Rumsfeld--he's adamently opposed to a draft. He remembers the mass insubordination that infected the military during Vietnam and doesn't want a repeat. Ha!
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

As to Iraq, the US has killed more than 100,000 Iraqis and deposed a former anti-Islamist puppet--in response to 911?!?!
Any half way literate person knows Bush and his cronies had plans to invade Iraq before 911 ever occured.

Time to sharpen your sorry-ass arguments up.

Wow, you are some peice of work Aaron. I never said I joined for purely patriotic reasons. I am a patriot, but its not the only reasons that I joined the service. I knew what I was getting into, and what I could expect in return. Part of that deal is putting your "chin up", and taking the crap handed to you. Like I said before, I dont 100% agree with every decision this administration(although, working for this administration has been a hell of a lot better than working for the last) has made, but I will continue to do my job to the best of my abilities. You can call that being a "sheep" if you want, but I think it makes you sound like an arrogant ass. You said that I need to sharpen up my sorry ass arguments, what exactly in my last comment did you refute? The draft? I dont give a damn who is opposed to it, if things continue like this for the Army and Marines, there will be a draft for those services. What one wants and what one gets are not always the same thing(I'm sure youre familiar with this considering your political stance), if a draft is needed, it will happen. So what else in my last post needs "sharpening"? Hmmm? Well, I dont see any other comments you replied to, it seems instead you decided to attack me. Just like like a fired up leftie, constantly talking shit and spewing forth with propaganda. Like this little tid-bit, "the US has killed more than 100,000 Iraqis". If you honestly think that US/Coalition Forces are responsible for 100% of the civilian casualties, you are a complete dumbshit(which truely is what I do believe to be the case). Coalition Forces are the ONLY combatants in this conflict that actually care who we injure/kill. Yes, there are some sick bastards that are in the military that take things a little too far, and they are punished accordingly. What we dont do is drive cars full of explosives into civilian crowds, we dont cut the heads off of civilians, etc...... As far as attacking Iraq, I do believe it was poor timing considering that we had a sizable operation going on in Afganistan. Instead, I think we should have removed Saddam from power the first time he kicked weapons inspectors out of the country. All the sactions did was prolong the inevitable, we were going back to Iraq regardless of 9/11. The rational was developed when Clinton was in office.

Congrats Aaron, you're a walking, talking leftie tool. Keep up the good work. You might grow up someday, then again, maybe not.

I said you "suggested" that your reasons for joining the military were purely patriotic. You're the one who denied there was an economic motivation. If you'd like to clarify your reasons for joining, by all means, do so.

I never said that a draft is impossible. What I said is Rumsfeld (that's your boss, foolie) is adamently opposed to re-instituting it. However, like you said, the Marines and the Army are having a hard time these days recruiting people to enter the meat-grinder--despite amping up the patriotic appeals and the monetary perks--so it's possible that a draft is in the offing. That doesn't change the fact that American elites are scared as hell at the prospect. Shit will hit the fan. Just watch.

As far as Iraq is concerned, spare me your sanctimonious prattle. America has blood on its hands in Iraq going back decades. Hussein was on the CIA-payroll in the late 50's, hired as a hit-man to off Kassem (he failed) and the US had a role in the '63 Ba'athist coup which ultimately toppled the same Kassem. In the 1980s, the US funneled advanced intelligence, weapons (including biological agents) and other aid to Hussein. Indeed, the US continued assisting the Ba'athist regime for TWO YEARS AFTER he gassed the Kurds. During the so-called Gulf War (I) the US used DU-munitions that are implicated in sky-rocketing rates of childhood leukemia in Iraq; it destroyed Iraq's water treatment facilities causing the spread of water-borne illnesses; it massacred retreating--mostly Shi'ite--soldiers; it bombed hospitals and schools and civilians neigborhoods (etc etc ad nauseaum). In the latest Iraq war the US has continued to use DU munitions and cluster bombs; it routinely drops bombs to root out "suspected terrorists" killing large numbers of civilians in the process; it basicall destroyed the entire city of Fallujah etc etc etc.

Anyone who has taken off their rose-tinted goggles and studied US foreign policy for the past 100-plus years knows that the long list of horrors inflicted upon Iraq by the Americans is hardly anomolous. No, no, no--it's par for the fucking course. And you're a paid "patriotic" agent, a mercenary, a fool. Congrats.

Well that’s just about what I expected to hear from you. You prattle on about past administrations actions because your arguments don’t hold 100% true for what is going on right now, which is in fact what I thought we were talking about. Yes, I do believe that in the history of the US and Iraq/Middle East, we have killed way more than 100,000 innocent people. That number is a drop in the bucket though compared to what they have done to themselves. That’s not what I was trying to point out though. You said that the US is responsible for 100,000 Iraqi civilian casualties since 9/11, and I said BS, and you didn’t bother to refute it. Instead you got on a soapbox and tried to divert by bringing up the actions and agendas of past presidencies, WTF? All you lefties seem to live in the past, let it go, nothing can be done about it. Just like you can’t do a damn thing about the current situation, especially by going after the US Armed Forces who don't have a choice in the matter. Its wasted energy. (Here’s where I get on my soapbox.) I don’t believe that this is exactly a 100% just war, but I do believe that good will come from it. You can call me whatever you want, "mercenary", "paid patriotic agent", or a “fool", whatever you want. Regardless of the current war, I'm one "mercenary" that will take a bullet to defend your right to call me that, not just because I'm paid to either, but because it’s what I believe in.

It's interesting that while you don't bother denying anything I said about the history of US policy in Iraq, being the crack-pot realist that you are (a widespread syndrome among half-smart Americans), it's all ancient history and irrelevant "cause we gotta live in the present."

According to your logic, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan could only be analyzed and critiqued in isolation. To view it in light of past policies and attempt to glean underlying interests other than the stated ones--that would be pure frivolity...

Of course, like all patriots, you only give _your own state_ a free pass. It's always right in the present tense. Years down the line, you can safely (and meaninglessly) concede that the entire policy was based on lies and mass death. But as the policies are being enacted, full speed ahead. What better description of a moral coward?

The *fact* is that that the history of US policy in Iraq has direct bearing on the present, regardless of your weak-ass assertions to the contrary. The same broad geo-political/strategic/economic prerogatives that animated past policies animate today's. Where are all the US bases in the middle east held? Why so many? Isn't it interesting to note that the US has bases in so many countries where the average person has no say?

The US invaded Iraq not because it had "weapons of mass destruction" and posed a threat to the "world community." The US invaded Iraq because it was weak, not because it was strong. Any decently smart twelve year old could figure that one out, yet you--mr. paid patriot--still hold onto the lie that the US had to invade to take care of some sort of incipient threat to americans. (Your contention that you're fighting for my rights is fucking hilarious, by the way.)

If we want to talk about the reasons for invading Iraq, I think there's no better person to reference than Karen Kwiatkowski, a life-long Republican who worked in the Pentagon in the Office of Special Plans, a "neo-conservative" created "desk" that helped formulate the plans for the invasion. In that capacity, she sat in on top-level meetings and got to hear the game-plan and the actual--as opposed to stated--reasons for the invasion. She says that the Iraq's supposed "weapons of mass destruction" were never discussed. In the interview which I've linked to below she says there were three major reasons for going into Iraq, none of them remotely connected to freeing Iraqi's or making their lives better or combatting terrorism or any of that jive. The three are:

1) To ensure that Iraqi oil is sold in dollars and not the euro which Hussein began selling it in in 2001. (Bush signed an executive order ensuring just that within a week of the "fall" of baghdad.)
2) To get forward bases installed in Iraq. (This appears to be in the offing.)
3) To get contracts for US companies. (Big US companies are making a killing and will be making even more in the future if all goes as planned--what with a client regime in place making sounds that it intends to privatize downstream and possibly even upstream oil operations.)

Here's the link to the article:
http://www.laweekly.com/ink/04/13/news-cooper.php

As to the many killed in the latest slaughter in Iraq, I was referring to the Lancet Study, a peer-reviewed British medical journal, which investigated deaths in Iraq since the US invasion and in a report issued about six months ago concluded that close to 100,000 have been killed in total and that "violence accounted for most of the excess deaths and air strikes from coalition forces accounted for most of the violent deaths".

How exactly am I a "crack-pot" realist? Because I believe that in the long run the Iraqi people are better off without Saddam in power? You have got to be one of the biggest jerk-offs I have ever ran into. Like I’ve said repeatedly, I don’t think this was a 100% just war. But we are in it now, and the only right thing to do at this point is to stay the course. Do I think Saddam posed an immediate threat to the US? No I don’t, but I do think that if he had the capability to use WMD on the US, he would‘ve without thinking twice about it. That’s more than enough of a rational for me to take his ass out. Its unfortunate how many innocents have been accidentally killed, but that’s war, and it was inevitable. If you think this war wasn’t going to happen someday, you’re the "crack-pot" realist. Again, like I said before, it should have been done years ago.

So, are you some kind of liberal lunatic or what? Where did I assert that the past has no bearing on the present? I asserted that Coalition Forces are not responsible for all 100,000 estimated deaths in this war, and you went on to talk about past US foreign policy. Yes, I do understand that the past has bearing on the present as far as policy is concerned. But, as far as the ratio of civilian deaths caused by insurgents, to civilian deaths caused by Coalition Forces, the past doesn’t have much to do with that. This ratio is what I was talking about. Your statement contended that there is no ratio, and we have killed every innocent Iraqi to date. Which is total BS.

Where did I contend that I am fighting for your rights (within the context of this war)? I didn’t dumbshit. What I said was, "Regardless of the current war, I'm one "mercenary" that will take a bullet to defend your right to call me that, not just because I'm paid to either, but because it’s what I believe in.” See that little part in the beginning, "Regardless of the current war"? Like I said before, I don’t believe this was a 100% just war, but I will continue to do my job. I do believe in America, and freedom of speech (even for condescending POS liberals such as yourself), and if it came down to it, I would die for your freedoms. I NEVER said this war is about your freedoms, so fuck off.

Where did I bring up the reasons for invading Iraq? Again, I didn’t. You are trying to steer the conversation because you want to get your point across, regardless of whether or not it’s what we are discussing. Just like the idiots trying to force recruiters off of campuses, the only free speech you’re interested in is your own. Your opinions/actions will never make a difference, neither will the actions of the student activists. You’re all too far left to make a difference, nobody wants to listen to a crazy asshole.

Do you understand where I’m coming from, are you even capable of it? I think I have a pretty good idea of where you are coming from, I used to think like you when I was in high school, but I grew up.

How exactly am I a "crack-pot" realist? "I believe that in the long ...
jerk-offs...Like I’ve said repeatedly,...we are in it now...stay the course...that’s war, and it was inevitable...you’re the "crack-pot" realist...it should have been done years ago...are you some kind of liberal lunatic or what? ...Which is total BS. ...I didn’t dumbshit....I'm one "mercenary" that will take a bullet to defend your right to call me that...it’s what I believe in...condescending POS liberals such as yourself...I would die for your freedoms. I NEVER said this war is about your freedoms, so fuck off.
...Your opinions/actions will never make a difference...nobody wants to listen to a crazy asshole.

Do you understand where I’m coming from, are you even capable of it? I think I have a pretty good idea of where you are coming from, I used to think like you when I was in high school, but I grew up.

Well, that was an excellent post by the last person, good job. I'm not proud of my actions here, but I do not regret them either. Aaron and I are obviously VERY passionate about our political positions, and we both let this degenerate into a bashing session, oh well, shit happens. Even though I think Aaron is wrong(certainly he feels the same toward me), I still respect his right to his opinion. My original point was that going after Armed Forces recruiters does absolutely nothing to further an anti-war agenda, we will always have all the people we need to get our mission completed. You're focusing your frustrations at the most accessible target, but its pointless to do so. Figuratively speaking, we are pawns that can not and will not be removed from the game board. Good luck, but you're wasting your time, you're not accomplishing anything.

Thanks to all the antiwar folks who hassled the imperialist recruiters at SF State. Such anti-recruitment actions are starting to spread; the imperialist militarists are getting the heat they deserve. We do need to turn up the heat too.

To the guy who says he won't be cannon fodder: Great. Don't join. No one's making you, so what's your problem?

"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." -- Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC

What a bunch of social outcasts. I wonder if any of them realize that the UC, as in "UCB", runs the Lawrence Livermore National Lab. The same lab that played (and still does) a major roll in designing and testing nuclear weapons and material.

What a bunch of wanna-be hippies. After they're done yelling and acting like idiots, they'll all probably go smoke pot somewhere.

"What a bunch of social outcasts. I wonder if any of them realize that the UC, as in "UCB", runs the Lawrence Livermore National Lab. The same lab that played (and still does) a major roll in designing and testing nuclear weapons and material."

Not sure why the Univeirsty of California's managing or Los Alamos, LBNL and LLNL would give anyone a reason not to protest against military recruiters recuiting usually poor students to go die in the US quagmire in Iraq.

We should also protest against the weapons labs (there are huge protests at LLNL every year) but the connection between UC and the labs is played up a lot more than is the truth by both sides. The UC system manages the labs but the work done in them is by the DOE and the DOD (except for LBNL which is mainly just the DOE). UCB runs LBNL because it was created around expirements being done on the hill by Lawrence (nothing weapons related); while many professors at UCB also work up at LBNL most of the work relates to DOE and NSF grants not projects related to anything directly tied to the UCB campus (or the UC system). Los Alamos is managed by the UC system for mainly historical reasons related to hiding the function of the lab during the Manhattan project (and because Oppenheimer worked at UCB and liked to vacation near Santa Fe), it wouldnt take much for it to be run by some other group and overall it wouldnt make much fo a difference since UC acts mainly to maintain the buildings and has no control over the actual research (the same goes for LLNL but the reason its run by the UC system is a combination of the history of a failed weapons project by Lawrence based off bad science and Cold War politics surrounding Los Alamos)

"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press."
Are you talking about the American Revolution? The main issue back then wasnt really about freedom of the press. I cant think of any way thats wars sense have increased freedom of thepPress; during many of the past wars (like WWI) laws were passed that essentially took away all press freedom during the war.

"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech."
That has little real meaning but is pretty Orwellian sounding. I wonder if a Chineese Communist Party leader woudnt say thing same thing about the crack down at Tiannamen Square.

"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate."
Shooting protesters in China or at Kent State is always hyped up by the right wing press as being a matter of increasing freedom by killing dissidents.

"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag,"
Wow. deep. Soliders also wipe their asses with toilet paper. Whats the point?

"who allows the protester to burn the flag."
Nobody really. Who allows anyone to do anything. Are we supposed to be thankful of the military for not shooting us when we protest? Not sure why burning flags is seen as such a horrible thing anyways when thats the way the military is supposed to get rid of any flag that touchs the ground...

"Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC"
What religion is that again? Arent Christians supposed to be against war with the swords to plughshares thing. I mean, yeah its a prtety lame religion and there are better ones like the old Roman religion and Greek religions where one was allowed to worship gods of war, but if someone chooses to be a Christian they should at least be consistent enough to oppose warfare (it sees like one of the most basic rules of the religion).

"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." -- Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC add your comments I believe those rights are outlined by the constitution and the declaration of independence, and soldiers defend them, not "give" them, with all due respect.

"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." --Stalin

You utter bastard. Stalin? You're comparing our Marines to Stalin? What basis do you have for comparing a military chaplain to a man who had the blood of tens of millions on his hands in the name of spreading and solidifying your ideology's hold over those it was starving to death?

I take it you want the draft back?

Someday when your all older, not in college, pay taxes and support a family you will understand the sacrafice our men and women made. When I was on the 26th floor of the world trade center and got out I remember freinds whose skin was burned off with Avjet fuel that burns at 2,000 degrees. It was our military that made one coutnry free and is freeing another one, which in fact is the only answer to the middle east problem. You should be protesting the suicide bombers and Al Queda, who want YOU to live in the 7th century. But you will not wake up until they are on your doorstep, but then it will be too late.

The best way to bring this Recruiting in school and low income area to an end is simple. Instead of signing agenda oriented petitions, get signatures to bring back the draft. It took almost 8 years to end the draft and another 15 years to get the military to build the all voluntary force. So if you bring back the draft Recruiter will not have to go to your school. Now change your tone to say America does not need a military or bring back the draft. Another point all voluntary means if you do not agree don’t join. You are pushing what you believe to the point it is acceptable to stop others from access.

Millitary is the real deal but recruters can eat shit and die. because they say one thing and say another. A friend of mine wants to join the army . Him and the army recruter got into a fight bcause he runs his mouth and having attitude he almost killed him . Im in the process of joining the Army National Guard and Ill be glad when im in the guard I dont have to deal with stupid recruters.