I identify with the pro-choice crowd

i marched yesterday in the pro-life crowd i can say straight up that you are wrong. the pro-coice crowd was rude and hypocritical. im a 15 year old girl and i make my own desisions. i was there on my own free will yesterday and yet people in the other crowd were trying to tell me that the men in the crowd were brain washing me. that is an insult to my intellegece and they should be ashamed of themselves. a man for pro-choice also came up to me with a broken coat hanger and asked me if i would like him to stick it up my fucking vagina. not only is that a horrible rude thing to say, but i myself can admit that i dont look at all my age, but more like 11. now why i ask you would a grow man ask a young girl that? they tell us not to " impose our beliefs" on them well might u tell me what they were trying to do? we were peaceful and didnt say anything to them at all, while they however were yelling and cussing at us, not to meantion making rude hand gestures. there was many very young children in the crowd and they were asking us how many blow-jods our priests had recieved. they have no respect or dignaty. we were excercising our right as americans not trying to impose our beliefs on them. and while they insulted our pray did we say anything to the women who claimed she was a goddess? i think not. there was also much false reporting. there were reported to be around two thousand pro-life supporter, while the offical count was actual over 7000, while the pro-chioce supporters were a little over a thousand. we won a great victory and keep our dignaty yesterday. and may i ask u how many pro-life supporter got arrested? i'll answer that for you, none.

where did you learn to count? you probably read it in the newspapers. if your want to read everything you believe fine. that's your *choice*.

if you don't want an abortion, don't have one. you cannot make that decision for other women in other circumstances. and no man can make that decision.

There was rudeness on both sides, whatever you may believe. someone was commenting on another thread about some older white male anti-choicers who ignored the comments of young female white pro-choicers but were quite comfortable with abusing a group of young black and asian women who were pro-choice.

you might educate yourself about how it used to be. no you won't agree with it, but it may help you understand the anger you encountered yesterday. see below.

dont tell me that its "time to grow up" because i dont think you ever did. no i didnt read it in the paper, the police that were doing crowd control informed us. there was NO rudness on " my side" maybe you read that one in the paper, or maybe your friends told you, but hey, you shouldnt believe everything you here. your arrogent manner is very juvienile if i must say so. i completely respect those who were being civil about their protests, but not those who were being rude, hypocritical, and blantedly disrespectful. and i think that your a little wrong on your facts. while 78,000 people have died from "back alley" abortions over 45 million HUMAN BEINGS have died from legal abortions and many other women from abortions gone wrong. so there's a fact for you, now maybe you can see where we were coming from. and if you cant't well god loves you anyways, and so do i. but just in case u missed know, i've already grow up.

To be polite to people who are trying to enslave you is not appropriate behavior.

To pretend that no rudeness came from the pro life side is the height of hipocracy. My girlfriend who was marching with me on the pro choice side was told to "keep her legs shut," called a slut, and told by a "pro life" man that he would put her "six feet under." When she responded to his threat the police arrested HER.

I will never be polite and submissive to the people who are encouraging oppression, whether of me directly or of any other human being. In the face of bombings and shooting from the pro life side, I think a little obscenity hardly even registers on the scale of rudeness.

Tell the truth K. Stop lying about the event yesterday.

That is unless you feel you have to lie to discredit the pro-choice side. It wouldn't surprise me if you did. That's pretty much the hallmark of you dumb-ass, religious hypocrites who believe a woman should never have an abortion, even if she is raped.

"Pro-Life", Your Name's a Lie.

and when they did in the past, they generally lied to discourage people from thinking the protest was a success.

of course, the corporate media dutifully repeat the lies of the cops, and thank them for protecting us from ourselves.

by the way whose god loves me? there is not only one faith and one god, so keep your christian religious bias off my body. I was raised a christian, but you people make me ashamed to admit it.

yet you know what's best for women and call yourselves pro-life. meanwhile witholding birth control and sex education from others, causing unwanted pregnancies.

Thank you K! You are entirely right, at least given what I saw. While I admit there may have been rudeness from our side, I didn't see any. Every pro-lifer I saw was polite and peaceful. The pro-abortion crowd was on the whole vicious and ugly. While some of the pro-abortion people were relatively calm and polite, many were rude and horrible. Now I know that many of you didn't agree with us, but I would think you could behave with some respect and dignity. You only made yourselves look bad.

And K, it's horrible that they targeted you specifically like that, let alone say such horrible things to a young girl. I will pray for them to see the truth, and ask that you do likewise (if you're religious, I knew people there on our side who were not religious and I do not assume, as the pro-abortionists do, that all pro-lifers are Christians).

You people blow up abortion clinics and murder doctors in cold blood. And you have the nerve to call *us* rude!?! Gimme a break.

K: "im a 15 year old girl and i make my own desisions."

NO! You're probably a _LYING ASS_ 50-something year-old lecherous or child molesting preacher or priest.

You didn't have me fooled for a second! Nice try, but you need to work on your "posing-as-a-15-year-old girl-writing" better. Is that what you use to lure children in the kids' and teenagers' online chat rooms?

The big tip-off:

K: "a man for pro-choice also came up to me with a broken coat hanger and asked me if i would like him to stick it up my fucking vagina" and "they were asking us how many blow-jods our priests had recieved"

Uh-huh... Surrre..., progressive protesters always go up to, single out, and specifically try to frighten 15 year-old girls (who, as K further 'claims', even looks "more like 11") by saying stuff like that to them, ...don't they?

I just want to know..., was he half-naked, except dressed in pink panties, a big hair bow, white bobby socks and little black-&-white schoolgirl's shoes when he posed as the "15 year old girl" above and typed that shit? Just how truly mentally _sick and degenerate_ is he? Did _God_ tell him to do that, or did the Devil make him do it?

to see the anti-choicers finally have the opportunity to release some of their venom and demonstrate their true nature. We know their true heroes, murderers all:

Paul Hill, Jim Kopp, Clay Waagner, Shelly Shannon, Michael Bray, John Brockhoeft, Joshua Graff

Pro-life huh?
James Kopp's rap sheet: On October 23, 1998, abortion provider Dr. Barnett Slepian was shot and killed with a single bullet from a high-powered rifle through the window of his Amherst, NY, home while he was standing in the kitchen with his wife and children nearby. Similar shootings injured Dr. Garson Romalis in Vancouver, BC, on November 8, 1994, Dr. Hugh Short in Ancaster, ON, on November 10, 1995, an unnamed physician in Rochester, NY, on October 28, 1997, and Dr. Jack Fainman in Winnipeg, MB, on November 11, 1997.

"You people blow up abortion clinics and murder doctors in cold blood. And you have the nerve to call *us* rude!?! Gimme a break."

You can see that I said that some of you were polite. Some of you were, many were not. Just the way hardly any pro-lifers murder anyone. I don't accuse people of things they haven't done. There were many of you who were polite and respectful. There were also many who were rude and hateful. I never said that YOU were rude, I have no way of knowing who you are and whether or not you were rude. I have never killed anyone, as of course you could probably guess, seeing as I'm free to be going to protests and talking online. You shouldn't accuse people of doing things they've not done, even if someone who agrees with them on an issue has done that thing.

I don't say that you are a racist because you believe in abortion, though many racist eugenicists believe in abortion. I don't say this because I don't know whether you are or not. Similarly you shouldn't say that I have, or even that I support, killing doctors or bombing clinics because you don't know. As a matter of fact I don't support that, I think it is wrong to murder people, regardless who they are or what they have done.

You have no reason to say that K isn't who she claims to be. I have no reason to believe she is, but I also don't go around assuming people are lying.

I did see many teenage girls there on our side, and I would not be at all surprised if someone had harrassed one as K describes. And if you think that a fifteen year old girl would be unwilling to repeat those words, you've obviously been out of high school for a very long time.

Instead of assuming that K is a liar, how about you admit that, if she is telling the truth, it was wrong of them to treat her that way. Imagine for a moment that she isn't lying. You don't help anything by continuing to be mean to her. Not that I know with any certainty. For all I know she may be a liar, but even if so the story she tells is sad and the people who harassed her in the story should be denounced for it. When you're talking to people who disagree with you, being a jerk isn't the way to convince them. Now I hope you don't convince anyone to support abortion, but I also want you to consider the effect your statements have on the people you make them to. For all you know, you have just confirmed a 15 y.o. girl's idea that all pro-abortionists are hate-filled jerks. I don't believe you want to be doing that.

The only one of those I've ever heard of is Paul Hill. And he is certainly no hero of mine. It's absolutely ridiculous to say that those people are our heroes. Many of us had pictures of the Virgin Mary...did anyone have a picture of Paul Hill? I heard some people chanting the name Jesus, I didn't hear anyone chanting Paul Hill. I would assume that few if any of the people at the walk were admirers of those people you list.

is a form of political endorsement.

Well it is Indybay's right to ban me if they like. As it is now I will defend myself and the people I was walking with. I know that Indybay does not endorse me and that the vast majority of the people here disagree with me, but for now they have been so kind as to provide a forum where I am allowed to speak. It's better than Democratic Underground would do, and I respect them for allowing me to talk. If they want to ban conservatives from speaking here, its their forum and they have no obligation to let people like me speak.

Now why would pro-choice people be made at you? After all you are just a sweet girl who wants to save babies, right?

Well in the the real world, life is much more complicated than that. Bringing a life into the world is a HUGE decision that every women has to make for herself.

God gave women and ONLY women the ability to bring a soul into this world. Don't you think God knew what he was doing? He also gave women brains and free will to be able to figure out WHEN to bring life into the world.

Now some religious men would like you to believe that THEY should decide when women bring life into the world. That is simply because they are jealous and afraid of women's power to create life.

It is none of these men's business. It is a decision for each and every woman.

"Saving babies" is all sweet and wonderful. But forcing women to give birth against their will is a cruel and awful thing to do. The only way to do it is to lock the women up. Is that what you want? Prisons full of women forced to bear children against their will? Women sticking coat hangers i their uterous or drinking poisons to self abort? Is that whay you want? It's not quite as pretty a picture as "saving babies" is it?

If you are going to get involved with an issue as important as life and death, you need to put down the barbie dolls and take a look at what happens in real life.

So, how do you feel about right-wing Christian middle-aged men (maybe even a preacher/priest) posing as a middle-teen girl and using that pretense to invent gross LIES? Or is he just doing _God's_ work?

Well, anti-choice girls can read this board too, so we might as well leave something here to read when they arrive.

I have no idea whether the anti-choicer is a girl or a poser. Doesn't really matter to me. Maybe he IS a 50 year old freak trying to get in touch with his inner teen age girl. As long as he doesn't touch any actual teen age girls, it's o.k. with me.

Whoever it is, they are obviously here posting because they are shakey in their beliefs. That's why they are prodding and questioning us. They know their position is ridiculous and unsustainable. They just want to hear it from us. They WANT to be converted to the pro-choice side.

Right guys?

Kindness? Is that it? Or is something more sinister afoot? Or are they merely incoherent?

Or maybe they're just being consistent. They provide free bandwidth to racists. Why not misogynists, too? After all, they’re birds of a feather.

Now now children.

Do you really begrudge people their freedom of speech? Let the antis speak. Let the lunatics speak. Let the clowns speak and the heathens and the religious and the poor and the wealthy and the jesus freaks and the just plain freaks.

I'm always a little suspicious when someone wants to shut off the discussion.

I'm not afraid of the anti's. They are on the losing side. They will eventually change their position or perish. They need someone to point out to them that their cause is futile.

Let a thousand conversations bloom. Hard drive space is cheap. Censorship is expensive.

"So, how do you feel about right-wing Christian middle-aged men (maybe even a preacher/priest) posing as a middle-teen girl and using that pretense to invent gross LIES? Or is he just doing _God's_ work?"

If K is a liar, then that is wrong. If K is a middle-aged man than I think it is wrong for him to pose as a fifteen year old girl. However, there's no reason to think she is. There's certainly no reason to think she's a preacher or a priest, other than a bigoted stereotype of priests as perverts. Few would say that a person does "God's work" by lying to some leftists on a message board. Yes, I think it's possible that K is lying, I don't know who it is and I have no way of finding out who they really are. However, in a situation like this I tend to believe that people are who they portray themselves as. You may not believe her, but to say based on nothing that she's a right-wing middle aged priest is wrong.

" in a situation like this I tend to believe that people are who they portray themselves as. You may not believe her, but to say based on nothing that she's a right-wing middle aged"

(I don't know if he's a preacher or a priest or some other obviously degenerate man.)

See trollbuster Sunday, Jan. 23, 2005 at 9:47 PM.

Pro-choice progressive male activists do not verbally and obscenely attack "15 year-old girls" who actually look "more like 11"! Does that claim sound _real_ to you, or made up?

What? After lying to school kids about sexual issues, lying about abortion psychological and medical side effects, distorting and falsifying abortion photos, harrassing terrified women (patients and staff) walking in clinics, invasions of womens' privacy, recording patients' license plate numbers, illegally tracing them, and calling women at home, issuing death threats, commiting murders, bombing clinics, and just regular everyday slimey tactics, you think that right-wing Christian men are above stooping to impersonate a 15 year-old girl on any internet discussion boards?

You are either very naive or in serious denial.

Let's kill unborn babies. Let's use abortion as a method of birth control. If I knock up some sleezy whore that I have no intention of marrying, I want the option of sending her to the clinic to get that little nuisance snipped out of her womb. Thank god for legal abortions. I am pro-choice!

"Pro-choice progressive male activists do not verbally and obscenely attack "15 year-old girls" who actually look "more like 11"! Does that claim sound _real_ to you, or made up?"

We'll me and other of my female and male friends, after we were amazed that their were actually young people in the pro life march, asked many of the women in the pro life march what they would do if they were raped, and if a coat hanger was their great alternative for women. Perhaps this is the harassment this individual is speaking of.

To the 15 year old girl (whether you really are one or not): You can dismiss reality as "rudeness" all you want, but reality doesn't care. If you don't want an abortion don't have one. The reality of pro life is many women dying in back alleys. If you find it "rude" or unacceptable to be confronted with this, then don't be in a movement which would cause it.

Many of the pro lifers prayed for my soul. If find this to be the most rude, disgusting, arrogant expression that reeks of pressumed superiority. Presuming to pray for me is, for me, way more rude than any obscenity.

And finally to all the pro lifers whining about how the pro choice side was so confrontational all you were just marching along peacefully: YOU CAME TO SAN FRANCISCO. The march's organizers stated that this location was specifically choosen because of the political nature of the city's residents. Coming to our town with right wing hateful relgious crap is like one big middle finger to us, so I decided to respond in kind.

PS: XC you obviously hate women. I wish you had been an abortion.

The pro-choice crowd loves the "rape and incest" arguments. But less than 2% of all abortions carried out for cases of rape or incest. The rest are irresponsible people using abortion as their method of birth control.

I love them. I especially love to have unprotected sex with them whenever we choose and mutually consent. I also love knowing that when, inevitably, one of my many partners gets knocked up, I can simply send her to the clinic to get snipped. Thank god for abortions and god bless America!

Shouldn't a woman be allowed to sell her body for sex if she likes? It's her body, and the government should keep their laws off of it! LEGALIZE PROSTITUTION!!! DO IT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will. If I want to have an abortion, I will. You have no right to tell me what to do with my body. If I feel it's irresponsible to bring a child into the world run by idiots like Bush, then I will not. I'm not breeding babies for Bush's army or anyone else's.

What is about my right to self-determination that you don't understand?

PS: If I don't want to say "under God", I won't. You don't control my tongue either, much as you'd like to.

You religious whackos need to keep your grubby little laws off MY BODY! WE ARE NOT BREEDING BABIES FOR YOUR ARMIES! WE WILL ABORT ALL OF OUR OFFSPRING FROM OUR PROMISCUOUS AND UNPROTECTED SEX ACTS AS LONG AS BUSH IS PRESIDENT AND THIS WAR CONTINUES!! AND YOU CAN'T STOP US, RELIGIOUS NUTCASES!!!!! I WILL SELL MYSELF AND USE THE MONEY FOR ABORTION AFTER ABORTION IN PROTEST OF THIS WAR AND IN PROTEST OF RELIGION!!!!!!

Whackos........

try posting under your own name for a change.

and don't forget to remind men about taking responsbility for THEIR "promiscuity".

"Pro-choice progressive male activists do not verbally and obscenely attack "15 year-old girls" who actually look "more like 11"! Does that claim sound _real_ to you, or made up?"

Yes, that sounds real to me. Listen, I was at the walk and I saw tons of vile behaviour from your side. Honestly I think that many of the people in the counter-protest care a whole lot more about keeping abortion legal than they do about helping women. And of course a "progressive male activist" would attack a 15 year old girl! You think "progressives" are immune to evil? After seeing the counter-protest on Saturday I'm fairly sure you aren't! I'm not saying everyone in the counter-protest would do it, but are you saying everyone there wouldn't? That seems like quite a stretch, especially given some of your side's other behaviour. There's no doubt some of the pro-abortionists were shouting obscenities and waving their middle fingers. There's also no doubt that there were teenage (and younger) kids in the walk! So how far is it, really, from shouting obscenities at 15 year old girls from a distance and shouting them slightly closer?

"What? After lying to school kids about sexual issues, lying about abortion psychological and medical side effects, distorting and falsifying abortion photos, harrassing terrified women (patients and staff) walking in clinics, invasions of womens' privacy, recording patients' license plate numbers, illegally tracing them, and calling women at home, issuing death threats, commiting murders, bombing clinics, and just regular everyday slimey tactics, you think that right-wing Christian men are above stooping to impersonate a 15 year-old girl on any internet discussion boards?"

First of all, I would deny that the pro-life movement as a whole uses "slimey tactics". Certainly there have been murders and clinic bombings, but you can hardly say that all pro-lifers are responsible. As for the rest of it I don't know, I would probably use different phrasing for some of those, and I haven't been involved in any protests at clinics so I don't know what goes on at them. And no, I don't think that right-wing Christian men are all above impersonating a 15 year old girl, but I don't have any reason to believe it's the case here.

I understand why you want K to be a middle aged man: you can't stand the thought of pro-life women. Well I'll tell you, the strongest pro-lifers I know are women. My own group consisted of several young girls who oppose abortion. Now you can sexistly state that they've just been brainwashed by their male family members, but surely if you try you can realize that girls actually ARE capable of thought, even the pro-life ones! You would rightly be offended if I said all the girls on your side were just brainwashed by liberal teachers. Since you presumably don't want to sound THAT sexist, you have to try and make out pro-life women to be men pretending to be women. You'll not convince anyone that way, all you do is look ridiculous, denying the existance of positions other than your own.

I notice you had no comment about the woman who was told to keep her legs shut.

This board has been filled with posts of people pretending to be pro-choice and bragging about spitting and shoving anit-choice demonstraters. I was there, and it friggin' did not happen. Perhaps you have photographic evidence?

And frankly you look pretty ridiculous yourselves. You come to the most liberal city in America for your little photo opportunity, what did you expect. Garlands of flowers? What would we get at a gay marriage rally in your town?

"Certainly there have been murders and clinic bombings, but you can hardly say that all pro-lifers are responsible".

You have to take responsibility for what is done in your name. If not join us in opposing violence against theses doctors. Doctors were murdered in cold blood, some while their own children were in the same house. Yet we don't see too may anti-choicers speaking out against these deaths. Silence equals consent.

The only reason pro and anti choice women are having this argument is because anti choice women are trying to force me into compliance with their ideology/ethic/choice...so, to all anti-choice women out there: I think it's great that you have arrived at an reproductive ethic that works for you (i'm sincere in stating this) and is intentional. That is NOT my quarrel with you. You do not (however) have the right to force me to act in accordance with your beliefs.

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA wow i have to say i have never been mistaked for a 50 year old male before! just because im an intellegent person who knows how to talk doesnt mean that im a child molester. want me to talk like a 15 year old girl, ok i will. i think that you people are fuckers and should go to hell. i think that you have major problems and i dont know who the hell you think u are. u think ur a genius who totally has me figured out well hears what i have to say to you fuck you! hows that for 15 bitches? now lucky for you im mature enough not to really mean any of that. but the sheer fact that you could say such horrible things about me and " insult my intellegence" by saying that a 15 year old couldnt be smart enough to say those things, well i think ive already said how i feel about that. and heres a thought for you-78% of teens under the age of 18 are against abortion. i hate to break it to you, but were the next generation...its not here to stay. so you know what maybe heres were you went wrong, you assumed that teens today didnt know about abortions, that we didnt care about issues, and that we arent smart enough to know right from wrong, well heres a reality check WE ARE

"I notice you had no comment about the woman who was told to keep her legs shut."
Fine, if someone said that then he or she is a jerk. I didn't see it, and I hope no one did it, but if someone did I'm certainly not defending them.

"This board has been filled with posts of people pretending to be pro-choice and bragging about spitting and shoving anit-choice demonstraters. I was there, and it friggin' did not happen. Perhaps you have photographic evidence?"
I didn't see any violence at all. I have no photographic evidence that the pro-abortionists were violent because, as I have said, I didn't see anyone be violent. I did see many pro-abortionists be rude and obnoxious, but I saw no violence from them, and I'm not accusing them of it.

"And frankly you look pretty ridiculous yourselves. You come to the most liberal city in America for your little photo opportunity, what did you expect. Garlands of flowers? What would we get at a gay marriage rally in your town?"
Well there are many reasons to go to San Francisco. Mostly, it's meant to get attention. I won't deny that everyone I talked to was expecting an unfavorable welcome. However, that's more of a sad reflection upon San Francisco, to say that people who disagree with the average San Franciscan should expect to be treated poorly. And as for "my town" I'm from San Jose, another very liberal city, where most likely a gay marriage rally would be well-recieved. And certainly I don't know any conservatives who would go there and shout obscenities. I don't deny that they exist, I merely say that I don't associate with them.

"You have to take responsibility for what is done in your name. If not join us in opposing violence against theses doctors. Doctors were murdered in cold blood, some while their own children were in the same house. Yet we don't see too may anti-choicers speaking out against these deaths. Silence equals consent."
Silence equals consent? Perhaps you want to think about that statement for a while. And no one has to take responsibility for anything that's done by another. Have you ever read any pro-life websites? Have you seen how when an abortionist is killed pro-lifers almost fall over eachother condemning it? Do you really think what you say? When Osama bin Laden blows up a building, and not every Muslim in the world announces his or her condemnation, do you assume that they're all terrorists? Do you really want to blame an entire group for the actions of some people? Well then how about the abortionist who carved his initials on a woman's stomach? I haven't heard you all condemning him...perhaps I should assume you all would do such a thing? But I don't, because I don't accuse people of the actions of others.

K is right about young people. I'm not sure about the number (abortion issues tend to result in various statistics) but certainly many young people are against abortion. What do you expect? You kill 1/3 of our generation...millions of the people who would have been our friends, our boyfriends and girlfriends, our husbands and wives, our colleages, our community...and you expect us to support it? It is ridiculous to think that a young person, with the knowledge that he or she could have been aborted, would support abortion.

And what's more, older liberals seem to forget that kids aren't morons. If a girl is against abortion, it's probably because she is against abortion, not because she is brainwashed or because she is actually an old man. The strongest, most active pro-lifers I know are women. The president of the organization I was with is a young woman who's views on abortion are certainly her own and not the result of any coercion. Stop pretending that you speak for all women. There are many pro-life women who's views are their own. If you truly respected women you would acknowledge them and argue with them as you would with anyone else.

"Stop pretending that you speak for all women."

Likewise. You can argue around it all you want, you still have no right to tell us what to do with our bodies.

I am the fourth of five children. My mother considered aborting both me and my sister. Because my Mother is a great person, and one of my best and closest friends, she and I have had this conversation and really, grown closer because she could speak of herself as a human that faced hard choices...I have gotten to know her as a human being, which has deepened my respect and love for her...knowing her humanity means being aware of the decisions she made.
I wouldn't have know if she had aborted me. Knowing that she thought about it makes not one iota of difference. My Mother is a human being first and foremost (even before she is my mother) and I respect her life apart from her role as a mother.

I know mine as well. And she supports my right to choose. I would have supported her right to choose as well, even if she had considered my abortion necessary. You see, some of us believe that we return many times to this world. I also believe we choose where we are to be born. Nothing is destroyed, all those babies you are trying to save were simply born elsewhere.

"Likewise. You can argue around it all you want, you still have no right to tell us what to do with our bodies."

I know very well that there are people who disagree with me. I don't think they're all brainwashed idiots either. However, it is not a matter of what you do with your own body, it is a matter of what you do to someone elses body. The baby is a baby, another person. Not you. It's true that you may not want the baby, but sometimes we have obligations we don't want. There is an obligation to the child, a new person who exists, that supercedes your right to do whatever you want. Go ahead and do whatever you feel like with your body, it really doesn't affect anyone else. But you have no moral right to kill another person, even if that person is fully dependent upon you.

Okay,
If your mother had aborted you you would be dead. If your mother had aborted your sister, your sister would be dead. Do you believe that you became a person when you were born? Depending upon what stage of the prgnency it was, you may have felt pain. You may have struggled to get away from the devices.

All in all, you should be GLAD your mother didn't abort you.

when push comes to shove and you have to chose between the mother and the fetus, you'd rather harm come to the woman than the fetus?

that seems rather anti-life to me

I supsect you also support the death penalty as fetus' reign supreme in your world over adult humans and even children

Actually, I don't believe not being born equals "being dead". This is a fine distinction, but I'll try to state it succintly: Dead (to me) is a state that is physically attained after having acheived some combination of physical/spiritual/emotional/cognitive being...and when I say some combination, i mean in differing degrees from another person (I have friends with phsyical disabilities, so I'm thinking of them)

no only is K aka Kristen (noticibly a girl's name...not exactly the name you'd expect from a 50-yr-old man) right in her views about abortion, she is also my fifteen-yr-old sister who just so happens to have the intelligence to break away from the cultural stereotype that all American teenagers are morons who can't speak for themselves. unfortunately for her, because she voiced her opinion she has been subjected to heinous coments questioning both her age and sexual orientation...and you people thought you were civilized? At sixteen and fifteen, we seem to be the only people able to comprehend the fact that by being a pro-choice society we inadvertantly make the statement that we can play God and decide who will be allowed to live and who has to die. And we decide this for those who have no voice and no choice in the matter.
I realize that many people out there do not share our opinions about abortion, and notice that I have been nothing but respectful to your ability to have that opinion, but as adults I truly expect you to treat our side with civility and respect. I don't understand why you think that it is acceptable to bash my sister for her views, because as an adolescent she also has the right to make up her mind about the issue. (by the way she does look eleven, I was the one who told her that in the first place) maybe if you stopped assuming that everyone against abortion is a 50-yr-old child molester we could get somewhere in resolving this issue.

"Do you believe that you became a person when you were born?"
No...I don't think that 'personhood' is simply a physical endowment. I belive personhood is born upon us as a progression, and that it is the result of a series of investments(spiritual, physcial, emotional) made by parents, initially and then after that, friends, mentors, etc...and that it is entirely possible for a person to grow to adulthood(say) and not attain it. Think about the horrible story of Aileen Wournos, who was born, was not loved, was not raised and found it impossible to create the sort of bonds of intimacy and mutual trust with others, and (moreover) could not love herself. She had no sense of what that meant. Her sense of investment in her self and her potential for emotional growth was fatally stunted. I couldn't say that she had what I would call personhood. (I do not support the death penalty, BTW)
"Depending upon what stage of the prgnency it was, you may have felt pain. You may have struggled to get away from the devices"
Again, the "you" you are referring to refers to a self-consciousness that I don't believe exists in fetal tissue or premature fetuses...I am generally suspicious of mind/body dualistic thought, but i will say that a nascent nervous system differs dramtically from a more or fully developed and integrated cognitive/physical system...pain as a reflex is one thing. Memories of pain, and the resolve or the idea to develop a strategy for avoiding it are different.

K is welcome to her views. But she needs to calm down, and stop swearing. If she wants to be treated like an adult, she needs to work to develop the kind of rhetoric that is appropriate the adult discussion.

"However, it is not a matter of what you do with your own body, it is a matter of what you do to someone elses body. The baby is a baby, another person."

Wrong. That is ---your--- opinion. An embryo is tissue, it is not a baby. And, as previously mentioned, if it threatened the mother's life, or if she chose for other reasons (which are none of anyone else's business but her own), she should be able to have a legal abortion. We are not going to agree on this obviously.

the reason that i was swearing like that was to show that people dont seem to think that you can possible be a 15 year old unless you swear. a person made a comment about me needing to work on me " posing-as-a-15 yr old-writing" and i was just trying to make a point. so there you go, but thanks for your comment anyways. and thanks sis i love you to death.

i think it funny how u told me to "Stop swearing so much" when the only real words i heard from most of the people on the pro-choice side were swear words! heres one of my " favorites" "fuck the church, fuck the state, we're the ones who ovulate" now isnt that chatchy and very adult! btw why did u use my name to post that?

XC (Mon, 7:48 AM): "If I knock up some sleezy whore that I have no intention of marrying..."

That says it all.

This is how patriarchal right-wing Christian males view single women who have sex: as "sleezy whore[s]". That's why such misogynist males have contempt for women's free choices.


sf punk: "We'll me and other of my female and male friends, after we were amazed that their were actually young people in the pro life march, asked many of the women in the pro life march what they would do if they were raped, and if a coat hanger was their great alternative for women."

That ("asked many of the women in the pro life march what they would do if they were raped, and if a coat hanger was their great alternative for women") is _NOT_ what the "15 year-old girl" said was shouted to her. Go back to the first comment and read what, ahem, "she" claimed. And if it happened as "she" claimed, it was probably a police or right-wing agent provocateur _posing_ as a leftist: gee that's 'never happened' before, has it?


K : "i think that you people are fuckers and should go to hell ... i dont know who the hell you think u are ... well hears what i have to say to you fuck you! ... hows that for 15 bitches? ... ", followed by a phony disclaimer (is that why you entitled your post "u people make me sick"? - you're so transparent).

Well, K, I guess, when you want to, you've got quite a little potty mouth on you too, huh?

K, it's not your swearing, or not, per se, that exposes you as an imposter. It's your style of writing that helplessly exposes you as a _MAN_ trying to impersonate a girl. In fact, it's common on some internet discussion boards, for all sorts of nefarious reasons, depending on their motivations, for sleazoid men to try to impersonate other women or girls.


pro-lifer: "And no, I don't think that right-wing Christian men are all above impersonating a 15 year old girl, but I don't have any reason to believe it's the case here."

I don't know how much internet experience you have, but if you get enough experience with internet jerks on discussion boards, you'll learn how to smell, spot and casually identify the trolls, flamers and imposters.In fact, there is are books (look them up on amazon) warning about sexually exploitative internet trolls and imposters - sometimes even two-/three-faced double and triple imposters - written for, respectively, women or children. Read one to develop some imposter-spotting skills and internet streetwit that may even protect you. "K" is _NOT_ "a 15 year-old girl": he's a condescending, doctrinaire, browbeating, sexist, middle-aged, bad-lying, right-wing Christian male _SLEAZOID_.

(Look at "YT's" and "Cherry Forever's" writing! You think that they are really two different people? You think that "Cherry" is a female? I've seen that same style in other threads about the march under different names. For all we know, hypothetically, at least half the anti-choice comments in these threads may be written by the same person under different names. Right-wing males do that.)

Unlike you, who I respect for your sincerity, as long as you only try to _persuade_ me but not _force_ me to conform to your religious views, K (he's a right-wing ideologue!) never makes _any_ attempt to be honest. You sometimes do. I can tell the difference and I appreciate that. Just like I would be honest if I actually saw a grown man (right- or left-wing) single out an 11 or "15" year-old girl and shout obscenities in her face - in fact, I would _stop_ him.


pro-lifer: "When Osama bin Laden blows up a building, and not every Muslim in the world announces his or her condemnation"

But, if it's your own particular religious ministers that, explicitly or subliminally, purposely encourages and eggs on the violent actions of, in this case, Christian nutcases (whether harassers, threateners, stalkers, bombers or killers), then your silence _IS_ consent.


pro-lifer: "I won't deny that everyone I talked to was expecting an unfavorable welcome."

GET THIS: It's A _STANDARD_ TACTIC for right-winger leaders of all stripes:

The right-wing preachers and their religious zombies came to San Francisco for a self-enriching fundraising photo op. That's all it was. They didn't expect change anyone's mind, general policies or laws in San Francisco society, a decidedly open-minded and progressive place.

So (as a right-winger), _provocatively_ go marching, with your highly dogmatic and reactionary politics, into knowingly and expectedly the very heart of unfavorable and pluralistic territory...,

purposely provoke a strong counterprotest (like being condescendingly nasty or even calling pro-choice women "sleezy whores", tell people that they're going to burn in hell, etc.)...,

get a very strong police presence to emphasize the danger to your very lives...,

maybe even have the police engage in some gratuitous abuse/brutality to instigate and provoke a further leftist backlash...,

perhaps even plant some agent provocateurs to make the counterprotesters look particularly violent and threatening (tell them to single out '11-15 year-old girls' and shout obscenities right in their faces)...,

then say you were visciously attacked...,

take highly selective photos for the right-wing organizational website and brochures...,

and scream to your glassy-eyed church folks, ditto heads, or right-wing grunts back home, "You see! We were violently attacked by those godless hedonist leftists! SEND ME MONEY! URGENTLY!"

The Christian right's provocative foray into S.F. was A RIGHT-WING FUNDRAISING EVENT (using you, "pro-lifer", your co-marchers, and even your accompanying children, as unwitting tools) nothing more, nothing less.

"Wrong. That is ---your--- opinion. An embryo is tissue, it is not a baby. And, as previously mentioned, if it threatened the mother's life, or if she chose for other reasons (which are none of anyone else's business but her own), she should be able to have a legal abortion. We are not going to agree on this obviously."

True, we are not going to agree on this. It is merely your opinion that the embryo is just tissue. And your opinion is currently enshrined as law, which results in what I and those who agree with me consider to be the mass-murder of babies. I think that this is the fundemental difference, if they are babies then killing them is NOT right. Thus, I would of course change the law. I would make it illegal to kill babies. There are VERY few cases in which abortion is necesary. I would have it illegal in all but those cases, because I believe the baby is a person.

If you do not believe that then I must say I hope you lose. If someone said "Jews aren't people" and made it legal to kill them, I would try to have that made illegal. If someone said "women aren't people" and made it legal to kill them, I would try to have that made illegal. If someone said "socialists aren't people" and made it legal to kill them, I would try to have that made illegal. I will do no less for the millions of unborn people who are being killed presently.

It's easy to be anti-choice when you are a teenager. It all seems so simple. "Babies are so sweet." "Don't have sex if you don't want the consequences." etc etc.

But as you grow up, you will discover that real life is complex. Lots of difficult decisions will need to be made by you alone. And only you are responsible to God for your decisions.

God has given you a body that can bring life into the world. He has also given you a brain to see the world around you and free will which means only you are responsible to God for your decisions.

From the safety of mom and dad's house, it seems very black and white. But when you are the one who is faced with the decision about whether it's the right time for you to bring a life into the world, it is much much more complex. Babies need food and shelter and health care and millions of hours of love and attention to grow up. Whether you are ready to give that is something only you can know. It's certainly not something a stranger can know.

i cannot believe you people, you think you have everything figured out don't you?? well i must tell you that you are overanalyzing things just a little bit. "K" just happens to stand for kristen, and she's my actually living breathing fifteen year old sister who just so happens to desire to voice her opinion...and like i have already said....just happens to be able to break away from the cultural norm that fifteen year olds can't use normal adult language. god you make me sick.

"If someone said "women aren't people" and made it legal to kill them, I would try to have that made illegal".

If you make legalized abortion illegal, you will have effectively done that. Congratulations. Women will die, rest assured. So will children who are born into precarious and abusive situations.

I know the anti-choicers say they are concerned about saving babies. I'm sure you've already heard this, but frankly, I don't see great evidence of that concern after the babies are children with welfare moms, poor healthcare and poor education. Maybe the concern is there, I don't know, but it isn't enough to help these kids. School after school closes, and do I see anti-choicers calling for a cutback in obscene military spending and an increase in school funding? I do not.

I think that embryos (miraculous though they are) are tissue, not babies. I also think that women are capable of making responsible choices about thier own reproduction, without the help of another party. You do not. There is no middle ground. So I guess that's pretty much the end of the discussion.

Welcome to the board Kristen and sister.

Yes, people get really really upset when you try to tell them that they have to bear children against their will.

You can feel very sweet inside yourself, you can tell yourself it's all about saving babies, but it's not. These are important, life changing decisions for people so you can't pretend to be surprised that people object when you try to tell them what to do and when to have kids.

You are involved in a very serious issue here. You should ask yourself why people feel so passionately about this. It's not that they like abortion. Abortion is a drag. It's serious business. But it's necessary that it remain legal because the alternative is really really gruesome.

"Let's kill unborn babies. Let's use abortion as a method of birth control. If I knock up some sleezy whore that I have no intention of marrying, I want the option of sending her to the clinic to get that little nuisance snipped out of her womb. Thank god for legal abortions. I am pro-choice!"
-XC

That's the entire quote of XC's. You cite someone who says "thank god for legal abortions" as a "patriarchal right-wing Christian male" ? Well then perhaps I dislike right wing Christian males as much as you! Seriously, XC purports to be a pro-abortionist. Either he is, and he has these dispicable attitudes, or he is a pro-lifer, using the questionable strategy of exaggerating the views of pro-abortionists. Either way it doens't imply that pro-lifers think that way. If he's a pro-lifer pretending to be a pro-abortionist to discredit pro-abortionist views, then I think he should stop it. But I also want you to remember that if he does not believe in abortion, he most likely also does not believe in the rest of what he writes.

"I don't know how much internet experience you have, but if you get enough experience with internet jerks on discussion boards, you'll learn how to smell, spot and casually identify the trolls, flamers and imposters.In fact, there is are books (look them up on amazon) warning about sexually exploitative internet trolls and imposters"
I have much internet experience, and I can identify trolls. In fact you'd probably say that I am a troll by being on a board that obviously will disagree with me. However, even if K is a troll and an imposter (which I doubt), she has said NOTHING sexually exploitative, hasn't tried to lure anyone anywhere, hasn't in fact done anything but tell a story about an experience at a walk.

""K" is _NOT_ "a 15 year-old girl": he's a condescending, doctrinaire, browbeating, sexist, middle-aged, bad-lying, right-wing Christian male _SLEAZOID_."
You can tell that from your vast internet experience, no doubt. Well does that include actually checking in to things and finding out who everyone is? Or is it that you simply call every pro-life girl you encounter online a "docrinaire, browbeating, sexist, middle-aged, bad-lying, right-wing Christian male sleazoid"? I'm asking here, perhaps you have truly encountered many people who misrepresnt themselves, and you've found out some way who they really are and can recognize a middle-aged Christian man posing as a fifteen year old girl. However, I suspect more that you just wish to dismiss the existence of young pro-life women any way you can.

"But, if it's your own particular religious ministers that, explicitly or subliminally, purposely encourages and eggs on the violent actions of, in this case, Christian nutcases (whether harassers, threateners, stalkers, bombers or killers), then your silence _IS_ consent."
Subliminally? So you think that when the Catholic bishops condemn terrorism, they're subliminally condoning it? If so I have nothing to say, you will find subliminal messages in whatever they say against terrorism and force them to conform with your image of evil right wing Christians. As for reality, the Church does condemn such activity, no one I've been involved with has ever condoned such activity, and I thus have nothing to appologize for, no personal nor group accountability for it.

"purposely provoke a strong counterprotest (like being condescendingly nasty or even calling pro-choice women "sleezy whores", tell people that they're going to burn in hell, etc.)...,"

The only person who I've yet seen say "sleazy whore" was XC, a purported pro-abortionist. The only mention I heard of hell was from the pro-abortionists, as well. For instance the chant that ends "fascist idiots go to hell" or the young woman with the sign that said "if heaven is full of you people I'd rather burn in hell". Certainly there was no organized chanting or singing about hell from our side.

"and scream to your glassy-eyed church folks, ditto heads, or right-wing grunts back home, "You see! We were violently attacked by those godless hedonist leftists! SEND ME MONEY! URGENTLY!""

I'll leave asside the ad hominem attacks about church folks being glassy-eyed and respond to this. Yes, we expected to be attacked. We willingly went somewhere that we knew was hostile. Does that make it right to treat us hostilely? No. As I said above the fact that we were expecting poor treatment reflects poorly on San Francisco.

San Francisco is the proud home of people who have escaped fascism around the world. We know fascism when we see it.

If the Klan comes to town, we will do the same thing. When the Nazis show up, we'll do the same thing. Hateful fascists are not welcome in San Francisco.

You were here to tell us what to do with our bodies. Surely you don't think we're just going to throw flowers!

Next time it will be much much worse.

How come so many Catholics take to the streets because the Pope tells them to oppose abortion but then completely ignore his condemnation of the Iraq war, and his opposition to the death penalty.

I am a little confused on the official Catholic belief around abortion. Does life begin at conception or does it begin beforehand? Isnt the anti-birth control policy of the Catholic church not only one of the worlds major casues of abortions in developing countries but also a statement of belief that life begins wehn semen leaves a man's penis? If the anti-condom stand of the Catholic church really is because of a belief that life begins before conception wouldnt masturbation be mass murder wheras an abortion would just be one life?

this person, and others, have made inflamatory statements that appear to be pro-choice (calling themselves bitchesfor choice, etc.) so far, the only ones who have been fooled are those who are anti-choice...

Illegal abortions accounted for more than one in four pregnancy-related deaths in Gabon in 2001, according to a Health Ministry survey which has just been released. Many of them were teenagers.

"Abortion was the leading cause of pregnancy-related deaths in 2001," said Elisabeth Makaya, head of the Ministry's infant and maternal health department.

...

In Africa, where most countries have restrictive abortion laws, more than four million unsafe abortions occur each year, according to UN surveys published in 2003. More than 40 percent of the world's deaths due to unsafe abortion occur in Africa.

Thousands of other women survive, but many are left with injuries and disabilities such as uterine perforation, chronic pelvic pain and secondary infertility, the surveys said.

http://allafrica.com/stories/200412310004.html

"I know the anti-choicers say they are concerned about saving babies. I'm sure you've already heard this, but frankly, I don't see great evidence of that concern after the babies are children with welfare moms, poor healthcare and poor education."

On the whole the pro-life movement is rather charitable. Most of us give money to charites, volunteer helping people, etc. One of the largest charities around is Catholic Charities, and they have services for everyone.

As for women dying if abortion is made illegal, this is a ridiculous argument. It is like saying that we should make murder legal, because if it is illegal people will still do it, but they might also get themselves killed running from the police. And there is obviously more to change about society than abortion. If I had my way we would have a society where no woman would ever even think she needed an abortion. But I don't believe we can become that society unless we acknowledge the evil crime that abortion is.

And Kristen and Ashley, I commend you for your pro-life views. Don't let them dishearten you, nothing they can say can change the evil of abortion. And eventually they will see how evil abortion really is. Until then keep on trying to accomplish the goal: to end abortion.

ach year, more than four million women in Latin America undergo an induced abortion. Because most abortions are illegal, these procedures are performed under clandestine and often dangerous conditions. As a result, the region faces a serious public health problem that threatens women's lives, endangers their reproductive health and imposes a severe strain on already overextended health and hospital systems.

The practice of induced abortion in Latin America is shrouded in secrecy, a direct result of the stringent legal limitations on abortion throughout most of the region. Induced abortion is punishable by law in almost every country except Cuba and a few other Caribbean nations. In most of the region, doctors may legally terminate a pregnancy that threatens the life of the woman, that results from rape or incest, or that is characterized by fetal deformity,1 but these options are rarely used.

http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/ib12.html

"As for women dying if abortion is made illegal, this is a ridiculous argument. It is like saying that we should make murder legal, because if it is illegal people will still do it, but they might also get themselves killed running from the police."

If you are going to equate abortion with committing a crime no one is going to listen to you. Abortion is legal, it is not a crime (much as you would like to criminalize women). And when it wasn't legal, women died. All the denial in the world will not contradict the facts.

SANTIAGO (WOMENSENEWS)--Monica Maureira remembers how--as the nurses interrogated her and the doctors lectured her--she watched her hands going transparent from the blood loss.

She was 16 years old and was hemorrhaging after having had a clandestine abortion in Chile, a country where abortion is illegal and considered immoral.

"I remember the nurses telling me that if I didn't give them the name of the doctor who gave me the abortion, they would let me bleed to death," Maureira says.

http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2086/context/cover/

what you all think of these stories from women who had abortions when abortions were illegal. these are streaming audio files.

You listen to their voices and tell me if they didn't think about what it meant to have an abortion. I dare you. Then let's talk about it. Is that fair?

" If I had my way we would have a society where no woman would ever even think"
Yeah, take off the end of what I say. That's a really intelligent argument. Good for you!


"If you are going to equate abortion with committing a crime no one is going to listen to you. Abortion is legal, it is not a crime (much as you would like to criminalize women). And when it wasn't legal, women died. All the denial in the world will not contradict the facts."
Abortion should be a crime. Abortion is the killing of a person, an entirely helpless person. Surely fewer people would die if we made robbery legal, but that doesn't mean we should. And in fact, with abortion legal there are inherently millions of people dying. Lives would be saved if abortion were illegal, millions of lives would be saved.

"millions of lives would be saved"

You are not saving babies. I know that's what you believe. You are not saving babies, you are killing women, teen-aged girls and neglected children.

Obviously we both want to save lives. But you seem to place more value on life that is unborn, and less value on life that is already walking around on the planet. And that includes kids whose needs are not being met as we debate each other.

"You are not saving babies. I know that's what you believe. You are not saving babies, you are killing women, teen-aged girls and neglected children.

Obviously we both want to save lives. But you seem to place more value on life that is unborn, and less value on life that is already walking around on the planet. And that includes kids whose needs are not being met as we debate each other."

So you believe that abortion is the ONLY way to save women? I have come to realize something about pro-abortionists: they see abortion as salvation, they see abortion like it's a sacrament. They attribute everything good in women's lives to abortion, and believe that without abortion women would all be left miserable and helpless.

And saying that abortion does not kill babies is merely your opinion, which I might add the majority of Americans disagree with. Saying a person is not a person does not make it so.

And I do work to make the world better for these children and tehir mothers. I should and I plan to do more. But killing the children to make life easier for the mothers is no way to make society better.

"So you believe that abortion is the ONLY way to save women? I have come to realize something about pro-abortionists: they see abortion as salvation, they see abortion like it's a sacrament. They attribute everything good in women's lives to abortion, and believe that without abortion women would all be left miserable and helpless."

Not so. Salvation has a particularly religious tinge. Abortion is a medical procedure, which has moral implications. I can't speak for all who are pro-choice, but I trust other women to take those implications into account and weigh them with the facts of their lives. It is should never, never be a choice that is lightly taken. But it is not a choice that should be interfered with by people who don't know and are not legally privvy to the facts and private moral decisions of the individual case.

"And saying that abortion does not kill babies is merely your opinion, which I might add the majority of Americans disagree with."

Let's hold a vote on that one. Getting a slight majority of people to support Bush in time of so-called national crisis is one thing, not a mandate. If it came to a vote, Americans are consistently for choice and independence. Majority is not the issue in any event.

"Saying a person is not a person does not make it so."

Saying a 15-second-old potential person is a baby does not make it so either.

"And I do work to make the world better for these children and tehir mothers. I should and I plan to do more. But killing the children to make life easier for the mothers is no way to make society better."

Build bridges don't tear them down. Listen to *why* we argue with you so ardently. Don't accuse us of not respecting life. You have no idea how much we do.

"And I do work to make the world better for these children and tehir mothers. I should and I plan to do more."

That is not enough. These kids need it now. They are here now. Not at some indefinite time in the future, when someone may or may not be free to "do more".

"But killing the children to make life easier for the mothers is no way to make society better."

Life is not easier for the mothers. Read some history. Or talk to someone who had an illegal abortion and try to do it without preconceptions and being judgemental: put yourself in her place. We'll pretend we're in the 60's, but current time will suffice in backwards communities who don't have the civic infrastructure that you and I have. Let's say, her husband's an abusive bum who beats her and the kids, she has 5 children and another one on the way with no way to provide for it, since daddy is unemployed and dammit, his wife is not going to take a job. This is the sixties and abortion is illegal. What a blast! You get to choose what decision she should make!

What in the heck would you do? Debate when life begins?

Unless you are proclaiming to be God, there is no way you know when the embryo becomes a person. In other words, when does the soul enter the body?

Major religions have wildly different views about this. It is not something that can be legislatively determined.

Therefore, the decision must be left up to the woman who is carrying the embryo. Otherwise you are imposing your religion on her by law and we don't live in an islamic state, we live in a democracy with a freedom from state-sponsored religion.

By all means, honor your own religious beliefs. But don't think for a moment about imposing them on me. I will make up my own mind about my own religious beliefs thank you.

We don't need no American Taliban.

"Let's say, her husband's an abusive bum who beats her and the kids, she has 5 children and another one on the way with no way to provide for it, since daddy is unemployed and dammit, his wife is not going to take a job. This is the sixties and abortion is illegal. What a blast! You get to choose what decision she should make!

What in the heck would you do? Debate when life begins?"

I don't believe you understand the pro-life position. Yes she should have the baby. From our point of view, killing the unborn child is no different than killing one of the one's that is already born. She needs to escape the situation, she should report her husband to the authorities (depending on the place and time they may not do much...if not that is horrible on their part). Even so, killing the child will not help the situation. If she gets pregnant again what is she to do, continue to get abortions repeatedly? She needs obviously to get out of her situation, escape her husband and save her children. This should be her goal: to save herself and her children. Born and unborn.

was for you to put yourself in her shoes. Apparently you were unable to do that. That's not necessarily the choice the woman would have made, but that is the choice you would have made, and she is wrong by your judgement. She knew that someone like you would not be there to help her out of her situation. No one was. She couldn't wait for someone to help her out, she had to help her self and her existing family. You may say that this is all hypothetical, but until you listen unbiased to someone who had an illegal abortion, frankly I'm not interested.

So are you volunteering to take in that woman with 5 children and one on the way?

Until you put your money where your mouth is, you are just all empty talk.

Women make these decisions for real life reasons. This is not some theorhetical "what if" exercise. This is about deciding whether you can care for a human being which is no small matter.

step1 (operation increase misery):
-cut wellfare
-cut all social services
-cut social security for elderly
-make sure kids cant get condoms
-encourage abstinance programs over sex educatioon
-cut funding to schools

step2 (operation deny alternatives):
-ban abortion
-ban adoption by gays
-ban panhandling

step3:
(operation return to Middle Ages aka immitate the Taliban)
-move social welfare programs to churchs
-encourage school vouchers to get peopel out of public schools and into Christain fundamentalist training camps
-increase use of the death penalty
-encourage women to get out of the work force (maybe even deny them drivers licenses)
-blow up statues of Buddah and other examples of idol worship
etc...

pro-women's _deather [if you insist on glibly calling pro-_choice_ advocates "pro-abortionists"]: "However, I suspect more that you just wish to dismiss the existence of young pro-life women any way you can."

I said before that you were occasionally attempting to be honest, but if you're just going to degenerate to such ridiculous hyperbolic claims then there is no value in any discussion with you. I didn't accuse _you_ or all of the other 'pro-women's death' marchers of being a man, so I must be using some discernment and distinction from experience.

Furthermore, if you want to believe that K is "a 15 year-old girl" then so be it. That's your CHOICE! I guess you just prefer to believe K is "a girl" because she represents what you want to believe. But, you see, I am not FORCING you to believe otherwise.

I was really just tipping off other pro-choice advocates about that sleazoid K (whatever his age, I knew "she" was _male_, but I assumed the age profile from observational experience fitting "her" language). Have you noticed the rudeness of "her" and "her sister" ("you idiots who think you know everything!!!"), as they complain about pro-choice advocates being rude and hostile. That's how right-wing men typically behave toward others. They're happy to insult others and call others names, but then call for "civility" and "responsible dialogue" when they get it back. Just go to their websites or talk radio programs. I haven't even called you an "idiot" and neither have any pro-choice commenters here that I can tell from a casual scan.

" As I said above the fact that we were expecting poor treatment reflects poorly on San Francisco."

No, it says that S.F. is a muliticultural, open-minded, socially-tolerant, sexually diverse, and even religiously liberal, diversity-celebrating, pluralistic city (as well as, at least, Berkeley, Oakland and Marin County) that doesn't want or welcome narrow-minded right-wing Christians with a proven _history_ of racism, misogyny, terrorism, religious intolerance, and forcing their narrow dogmatic religious positions upon others; and then to come to our city with the goal of forcing sexually active women into (potentially) mandatory pregnancy and giving birth or, otherwise, back-alley abortions.

Now you see why we will never agree. That's all I have to say.

I have been marching for 40 years and I have felt the love and the power that we sisters have. But after every march, I go home disappointed knowing that the right in power just mocks us and organizes to make sure that we'll just stay at the marching level.
No womyn's progressive political arm to pull it all together to hit the corporate fascists where it hurts - the pocket book.
No womyn's political arm to dismantle the reactionary laws that harm the poor, the children, the health of people and the health of th planet. And the right wing will do anything to prevent such a party to exist - they do it with pro-lifer, their war-mongers!
Pro-choice must move forwards or we'll all go backwards!

No offense, we are going to have to increase the protests to Vietnam Era resistance if we want the religious right (or GW Bush) to listen.
We need to create large scale civil disobedience all over the country and keep that up for at least 6 months. The cities will become broke. The federal forces are all in Iraq, so our land is unprotected.
Its the perfect opportunity.
We need to rustle a few feathers to get that freaks attention (GW Bush).

Say what you want about Catholicism and the Pope's view on abortion, but eventually you will all end up in jail for such views.
---
A court in Warsaw found Jerzy Urban guilty of insulting a head of state by writing a satirical article on the eve of the pontiff's 2002 visit to Poland.

Mr Urban insisted he was exercising the right to free expression.

Ahead of the trial, the press freedom group Reporters without Borders said a prosecution would set a "dangerous precedent" for a European Union state.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4204911.stm

I'm amazed that this posting has drawn 83 comments, or more.

At any rate,
I think all (83+) comments should be listed --
not merely ten most recent.

That is, I thoink the IndyBay software should be changed,
in this respect,
if possible.

-- TBL

One of the photos shows a sign saying

"POST"
FEMINISM
SUCKS

...........
Could somebody please explain
what this means?
Are there womyn who call themselves "post-feminists" ?
If so, how do they define that term?

.......
The term reminds me of "post-gay"....

-- puzzled

Both your sides are crying about being insulted by eachother.

I have one question to ask! Do you want whine with your

cheese?

seriously people whats with all this whining about civility and all

these bullshit arguments about babies and women dying.

Lets face it people BOTH your Groups wanted a confrontation,

and both your groups got it.

I think Anti Abortionists and Pro Choicers have these rallies just

to have a little fun, or maybe you people have to feel BIG and

join a Gang of other like minded people.

So next time you guys rumble let everyone know and I'll sit on

the sidelines and watch you guys have it out.

i realize that most pro-choicers aren't exactly "pro-abortion", in that they think abortion to be this wonderful practice that we should all experience. instead the majority of this country believes abortion to be a "drag" and a sort of "necessary evil". well...this country used to think that way about slavery too. people used to think that it was their RIGHT to use people as their property and not as human beings, and it took a century or more and thousands of abolitionists to speak for those black slaves who couldn't speak for themselves.
an important arguement for the pro-choice side is that women with crisis and unplanned pregnancies don't have the financial and moral support to actually carry their child. but what i dont understand is why, if no one really LIKES abortion, we consider it our perogative to provide them with easier and safer access to abortion. Instead shouldn't we focus on providing them with the health care and support that they require so abortion doesn't have to exist?
so you say it's impossible? thats what southerners used to say about eliminating slavery.

"stick to the issue at hand"

_You're_ the one bringing up ante-bellum slavery, "ashley".


"this country used to think that way about slavery too. people used to think that it was their RIGHT to use people as their property"

Then why do you, ashley, want women to be _FORCED_ into _reproductive_ slavery?

Let's see if you can get this through your head, "ashley". Most of us do _not_ see a zygote, or a blastocyst, or a glob of embryonic tissue, or a mentally inert rudimentary fetus to be a _person_.

GOT THAT? ...FINALLY?


"...those black slaves who couldn't speak for themselves."

Well, you know what?: pro-choice women _can_ think and _speak_ for themselves about a matter so highly personal that involves their own body and future. Don't need the Pope. Don't need Jerry Falwell. Don't need your right-wing preachers. ...And don't need you, either, nosing into other people's lives.


"an important arguement for the pro-choice side is that women with crisis and unplanned pregnancies don't have the financial and moral support to actually carry their child."

Economic class and moral support have _no_ necessary connection to the decision regarding the free CHOICE of whether one wants to become a mother or not - and a 20-25 year direct and _PROFOUND_ responsibility for raising a child into young adulthood.

Financially secure, university educated, advanded degreed, and professional women from loving families may also CHOOSE not to become a mother, or not to have _additional_ children, should they have an inadvertant pregnancy - or not to have a mortally deformed baby, or a baby with a terminal congenital illness/defect that would have it born in pain until it dies, or a pregnancy that highly threatens one's life or would be fatal. Something to be considered between a woman and her doctor. You might eventually understand these complexities of life, "ashley", when you get some real-world experience and socially mature, instead of maintaining your abstract religious fantasies. Up until now you and your "sister" ("K"), have just been engaging in childish rants.


"but what i dont understand is why, if no one really LIKES abortion, we consider it our perogative to provide them with easier and safer access to abortion."

No one really LIKES heart surgery either, but we consider it our right to have easier and safer access to heart surgery, should it become necessary.


"instead the majority of this country believes abortion to be a "drag" and a sort of "necessary evil"."

...Like, for many people, heart surgery.


"Instead shouldn't we focus on providing them with the health care and support that they require so abortion doesn't have to exist?"

Shouldn't right-wing Christians focus on providing kids and adults with - instead of DENYING them - better sex education and family/reproductive planning and contraceptive resources so that abortion doesn't have to be as necessary?

YOU DON'T SEE ANY INHERENT RIGHT-WING CHRISTIAN CONTRADICTIONS AND HYPOCRISY THERE, "ASHLEY"?


"so you say it's impossible? thats what southerners used to say about eliminating slavery."

Well, we've been steadily trying to abolish domestic, sexual, and reproductive slavery for women. It's the patriarchal (and often misogynist) right-wing Christian preachers/patriarchs/'masters' and their suburban Stepford Girls (who maybe actually _like_ a man being in command and control of her in exchange for the prospect of having a June Cleaver life) who've been trying to drive women back into domestic slavery.

I say that as an African American who's ancesters were held in slavery, an institution then approved and even blessed by conservative Christian ministers - the same kind who have always fought against women's rights.

I'm a busy person, "ashley": I've given you a basic analysis here of the issue and the fallacious aspects you have raised. The rest is up to you.

I have been marching for 40 years and I have felt the love and the power that we sisters have. we have the power to end this needless death for the simple convienance of a person who is too lazy to use birth control. it is not their right to murder their offspring. we need to hold these women accountable, as we Held Scott Peterson accountable for his crime of convienance.

NOW _HOW_ MANY TIMES ARE YOU GOING TO SPAM THIS AND IN HOW MANY DIFFERENT INDYBAY THREADS HERE, SO-CALLED "BETH"...?

This is why so many people find you arrogant butt-inski right-wing "Christians" so obnoxious.

Don't you have some Blble-thumping to go do somewhere _else_?

I don't even believe that "a woman" would insult "we sisters" by accusing them of being "too lazy to use birth control".

Do you actually think that you're actually going to persuade anyone with your obnoxiousness?

I think that "Beth" is just another right-wing Christian male 'in drag'.

Would you right-wing men just get lost? Go pray for your souls somewhere.

"K" (as "a 15 year-old girl" opposing abortion rights): "now why i ask you would a grow man ask a young girl that? they tell us not to " impose our beliefs" on them well might u tell me what they were trying to do?"
http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/01/1716687_comment.php#1717603


"K" (as a ? opposing Gavin Newsom): "I'm tired of him signing on to social and activist efforts, winning cheap support, while continuing to take his racist and economic repression behind the scenes."
http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/01/1717714_comment.php#1717742


What happened to the rudimentary writing skills, like starting every sentence with small letters, the lower case "i"'s, and occasional "u"'s, and the often missing apostrophes in words like "dont", "didnt", and "thats", to have us believe that "K" is some teen (no doubt suffering under the educational deficiencies of Christian home schooling) ???

Notice the sudden improvement in relative articulation and suddenly crisper sentence structure too.

I wonder how "K ... a 15 year-od girl" will be writing _next_?

Same "K", different "K"...?


[This, although I agree for my own political reasons that Gavin Newson, and Heather Fong, racistly turned S.F.'s Bay View into 'Black Fallujah', as the let the SFPD rampage through there and terrorize the residents under a massive occupation back two months ago or so.]