Publish to Newswire
Add an EventFrom the Open-Publishing Calendar
From the Open-Publishing Newswire
Indybay Feature
Report From Hotel Picket line
Is UNITE/HERE really different from any other AFL-CIO Union when it comes to the issue of fighting the employers?
We have had a couple major strikes here in California the last year
or so. The grocery workers were on strike for five months in the
south and they sent strikers up here to northern California to
leaflet the stores here asking shoppers to boycott and not shop.
They wouldn't pull their members out of the stores up here which
would have been a great step towards achieving victory because the contracts weren't up and any solidarity action like that would have been against the law, would have been unfair as they say.
The union leaders are very big on obeying the law and playing by the rules. Consequently, despite heroic efforts on the part of the members, the grocery strike was defeated.
Now we have about 4000 hotel, workers on picket lines in San
Francisco. The union pulled 4 hotels out after talks collapsed Sept. 29th for what they said was a two week strike and then they would return to work. Naturally, the employers locked them all out two days later and are so far refusing to let them back to work after the two week deadline ends Wednesday.
Mike Casey, President of Local 2, was very upset. "This is nothing
short of an outrage'', Casey told the San Francisco Chronicle, "What the employers have done is openly declare war not just against our membership, but in our view, against the citizens of San Francisco, indeed the entire recovery of the San Francisco economy."
"Can things get any worse?" I say to myself. First of all, the
employers are at war with us every minute of every day, any worker that works under a contract knows that. But is Mike Casey actually surprised at this response? Does he really think that he can pull a few thousand workers off the job and then tell them to return to work at the Union's leisure and the employers will do nothing? It's almost laughable if the consequences of such a worthless strategy were not so devastating to the Union's dues paying members.
Interestingly enough, HERE/UNITE the Union that represents hotel
workers is considered to be the progressive Union by many like minded activists in the labor movement, unlike the UFCW to which the grocery workers belong which is looked at as an old line industrial Union tainted with corruption and organized crime. HERE in this area employs young, politically correct organizers and it supports diversity.
But, not only could Mike Casey's comment be from the mouth of any seasoned labor bureaucrat, the way the hotel workers strike is being run is in no way different from the way the failed grocery strike was organized or every other strike in the past period. Union officials whether they are from the UFCW, UAW, or so-called progressive Union like SEIU of HERE/UNITE all have the same approach. Do nothing that will violate the law or seriously threaten the employers' operation,and, at no time allow the anger and hatred of the boss that exists in most workers to come to the surface; keep it contained and within the limits of what is acceptable by the business community and their politicians.
This strategy is designed to convince workers that we can never
really win. Today I went to the picket line and the first thing we
have to realize is that it is not really a picket line, it is protest
line, we are not allowed to impede people or vehicles entering the
hotels. Today, I grabbed my sign and stepped in line with the
others. Before I knew it, a picket grabbed my arm and yanked me in place. he pointed to the white tape that clearly marks the box that we are allowed to walk in.I thought for a minute that I had bumped in to an old lady or something and hadn't noticed it.
I went up to where some pickets where standing as I got a bit
depressed chanting, "who got the power, we got the power" while
picketing a brick wall and scabs milling around beside me escorting
customers in to the place being struck. There were two bulky looking guys wearing suits with wires attached to their ears, I asked a woman if they were rent a thugs dressed in suits. She laughed and agreed.
We got in to a bit of a discussion and I explained that it didn't
seem we could be real effective, that we could win, if we just walk
around in circles like this.She agreed that we should do more but the Union wants to be peaceful. She said they were making noise late at night but the cops threatened to cite them so the Union stopped them. I talked about what the kids did when they shut down the intersections at the onset of the Iraq war and she agreed it would be good to do.
The mood seemed to me to be a bit more solemn today. I think it is sinking in that they may not be going back to work Wednesday if the employers stick to their word. After a while, ineffective picketing gets old when you are out of work and people just keep crossing your lines. The flier I saw today from the Union was an appeal to customers to not check in or to check out for those that were already registered. In other words, an appeal to the consumer to boycott the employer. This is basically the same strategy as the UFCW used and has been used repeatedly in strike after strike with catastrophic results.
It is obvious that the strategy of the AFL-CIO is to try get Kerry
elected and hope for the best. In response to the employers lockout, Mike Casey sent a letter to them telling them that the union would return to work "unconditionally" either at the end of the deadline or before. It's no wonder the employers feel so confident
I got to talking to the same worker who had pulled me inside the
picketing box when I arrived and we talked about the need to break
laws that are used against us. As i was talking to him it kept going
through my mind that the natural hatred and anger workers have toward the bosses is hemmed in on all sides by the employers and the Union officials. Every strategy, every tactic, is designed to convince workers that it is no use, we can't win. The chants of how powerful we are and how strong the union is cannot overcome the reality of the situation.
The union is having a rally Tuesday at 4.15 to let folks burn off steam.
Oh, I forgot, strike bulletin #3 is upbeat, Danny Glover walked the
picket line for a while along with 50 carpenters Union Members
(full-time officials)
It is hard to go to these lines in a way because you see the
dedication and the class solidarity on the line, people are so glad
when you come to support their efforts. But, for so many of them,
the issue of strategy and tactics is something they leave to the
leaders which has disastrous results. As time goes on, like the
grocery strike and strikes before it, the members come to see what is happening and, in many cases, end up hating the union for it.
Richard
For more information:
http://laborsmilitantvoice.com
Add Your Comments
Comments
(Hide Comments)
i wish some unionista would come forward and defend the union's strategy. i'd like to hear it. seems to me like it's leading the "rank-and-file" into a cul-de-sac.
i believe that as tensions rise, the union's pathetic strategy and policing role will become more of an issue. this is one of many reasons why radicals need to make their presence felt on the "picket" lines.
i'll say this: during our flying picket the other night, many picketers were gleeful when we blatantly violated the noise ordinance and loudly talked shit about and to the scabs. invariably, the "picket" captains would--at the hotel security's behest--tell us we needed to keep it down lest we get him or her arrested. [this is a legal question: can the picket captain get arrested for the actions of others? if so, maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea! just kidding]
in any case, the only strikers that made any real effort to get us to comply with the bosses laws were those with official union positions, suggesting how *interesting* things could get if hundreds come out to the next flying picket (TBA).
i believe that as tensions rise, the union's pathetic strategy and policing role will become more of an issue. this is one of many reasons why radicals need to make their presence felt on the "picket" lines.
i'll say this: during our flying picket the other night, many picketers were gleeful when we blatantly violated the noise ordinance and loudly talked shit about and to the scabs. invariably, the "picket" captains would--at the hotel security's behest--tell us we needed to keep it down lest we get him or her arrested. [this is a legal question: can the picket captain get arrested for the actions of others? if so, maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea! just kidding]
in any case, the only strikers that made any real effort to get us to comply with the bosses laws were those with official union positions, suggesting how *interesting* things could get if hundreds come out to the next flying picket (TBA).
Or do you ever wonder Richard?
People don't like to work with you because you exude the same sort of authority that you criticize the union leadership of. I don't think that I have much to say to you about how tired your rhetoric is because I feel like I would only be wasting my time. If you feel like you have the answer though and know what is best, ie taking over the streets, do it! The problem with just throwing that out to folks as a solution is that they can't necessarily do it, and that hotel workers and their union actually did already do a mass civil disobediance in the streets on labor day. No it wasn't quite the same as the actions taken by many on the day after the most recent Gulf War was started, but it was definitely more than I have ever seen come out of you or your little Labor's Militant vanguard. I realize that Jon and others were involved in helping to start and organize a big wildcat among Carpenters in 1999, but no one has ever been able to demonstrate how that was the most effective strategy to take.
Regardless, the hotel workers are locked out and despite your raving critics and attempts to talk shit on the leadership of the local to members on the lines, nothing has came out of your organization other than a lot of talk. Where's the large solidarity actions that you are envisioning to be the most effective, and why aren't you somehow able to organize them? Those are the real questions that I walk away from after my experiences with your group and your continued rantings.
Don't Mourn, Organize!! - the ghost of joe hill
ps - Even though you supposedly organize with the IWW somewhat in the Bay Area Striker Solidarity Organization, your vanguard even talks shit on them, despite the fact that they are your supposed allies. Does the shit talking ever stop or is that all you are good for?
People don't like to work with you because you exude the same sort of authority that you criticize the union leadership of. I don't think that I have much to say to you about how tired your rhetoric is because I feel like I would only be wasting my time. If you feel like you have the answer though and know what is best, ie taking over the streets, do it! The problem with just throwing that out to folks as a solution is that they can't necessarily do it, and that hotel workers and their union actually did already do a mass civil disobediance in the streets on labor day. No it wasn't quite the same as the actions taken by many on the day after the most recent Gulf War was started, but it was definitely more than I have ever seen come out of you or your little Labor's Militant vanguard. I realize that Jon and others were involved in helping to start and organize a big wildcat among Carpenters in 1999, but no one has ever been able to demonstrate how that was the most effective strategy to take.
Regardless, the hotel workers are locked out and despite your raving critics and attempts to talk shit on the leadership of the local to members on the lines, nothing has came out of your organization other than a lot of talk. Where's the large solidarity actions that you are envisioning to be the most effective, and why aren't you somehow able to organize them? Those are the real questions that I walk away from after my experiences with your group and your continued rantings.
Don't Mourn, Organize!! - the ghost of joe hill
ps - Even though you supposedly organize with the IWW somewhat in the Bay Area Striker Solidarity Organization, your vanguard even talks shit on them, despite the fact that they are your supposed allies. Does the shit talking ever stop or is that all you are good for?
dear Joe,
your criticism and defense of the Union leadership's strategy would carry some weight if you had the courage to identify yourself. It is hard to imagine that you might be a rank and file worker as most rank and file workers do not like when people express a certain view but hide their identity as you do. We feel they must have something to hide. Common sense isn't it?
Richard
your criticism and defense of the Union leadership's strategy would carry some weight if you had the courage to identify yourself. It is hard to imagine that you might be a rank and file worker as most rank and file workers do not like when people express a certain view but hide their identity as you do. We feel they must have something to hide. Common sense isn't it?
Richard
For more information:
http://laborsmilitantvoice.com
I'm not sure who "Joe Hill" is (it isn't me), but I want to clarify a few things (with all due respect to "Joe Hill"):
(1) Although members of LMV and the IWW have their disagreements over philosophy, strategy, and tactics, I am not aware of any bad blood between the active members of LMV in the Bay Area and the Bay Area IWW. We've even worked together on a few campaigns.
(2) I was also at the Labor Day rally and I witnessed some of the civil disobedience. It was a good show, but it hardly created any significant impact to the management of the hotels.
(3) While I cannot speak for Richard, I would argue that the hotel workers are going to take this struggle in the gut (in fact, they essentially already have). The reason for this is the union is not hitting the boss where it hurts, and that's in the bank account / pocketbook.
This pattern is all too typical among business unions in North America. Even the so-called "progressive" paid union leaders don't really hit tthe boss in the economic vein. Why are the paid union bureaucrats:
(1) Insisting that pickets don't actually block accessways?
(2) Not staging loud and raucous sit-ins in the hotel lobbies?
(3) Pulling workers out of all hotels all over San Francisco (organized or not)?
(4) Calling for strike sanctions in other UNITE HERE regions?
(5) Arranging pickets and demonstrations at any and all scab hiring agencies?
(6) Passing out leaflets to all passers by explaining what's happening, how they can join the fight (beyond simply patronizing alternative hotels)?
Richard's correct. Picketing a brick wall is at BEST symbolic. It's a combination of spectacle and liberal "moral universe" pleading. It may help bring out ocassional business media coverage and convince a few consciencious would be patrons to go elsewhere, but if hotel management really wants to withstand the symbolic demonstrations, they can and probably will.
On the other hand, if the hotel workers could find a way to really disrupt business as usual, and make it so that business is next to impossible, the bosses will be begging and pleading for the union to settle on the union's own terms.
While I support the decisions made by the rank & file, it's really hard to be positive about a losing strategy. This is essentially the same strategy that the UFCW bureaucrats in Southern California used to cave into the grocery bosses. What makes anyone think that the results will be any different here, especially since the bosses proved that they can win this way?
(1) Although members of LMV and the IWW have their disagreements over philosophy, strategy, and tactics, I am not aware of any bad blood between the active members of LMV in the Bay Area and the Bay Area IWW. We've even worked together on a few campaigns.
(2) I was also at the Labor Day rally and I witnessed some of the civil disobedience. It was a good show, but it hardly created any significant impact to the management of the hotels.
(3) While I cannot speak for Richard, I would argue that the hotel workers are going to take this struggle in the gut (in fact, they essentially already have). The reason for this is the union is not hitting the boss where it hurts, and that's in the bank account / pocketbook.
This pattern is all too typical among business unions in North America. Even the so-called "progressive" paid union leaders don't really hit tthe boss in the economic vein. Why are the paid union bureaucrats:
(1) Insisting that pickets don't actually block accessways?
(2) Not staging loud and raucous sit-ins in the hotel lobbies?
(3) Pulling workers out of all hotels all over San Francisco (organized or not)?
(4) Calling for strike sanctions in other UNITE HERE regions?
(5) Arranging pickets and demonstrations at any and all scab hiring agencies?
(6) Passing out leaflets to all passers by explaining what's happening, how they can join the fight (beyond simply patronizing alternative hotels)?
Richard's correct. Picketing a brick wall is at BEST symbolic. It's a combination of spectacle and liberal "moral universe" pleading. It may help bring out ocassional business media coverage and convince a few consciencious would be patrons to go elsewhere, but if hotel management really wants to withstand the symbolic demonstrations, they can and probably will.
On the other hand, if the hotel workers could find a way to really disrupt business as usual, and make it so that business is next to impossible, the bosses will be begging and pleading for the union to settle on the union's own terms.
While I support the decisions made by the rank & file, it's really hard to be positive about a losing strategy. This is essentially the same strategy that the UFCW bureaucrats in Southern California used to cave into the grocery bosses. What makes anyone think that the results will be any different here, especially since the bosses proved that they can win this way?
For more information:
http://www.iww.org
I totally feel you, richard.
the union's stance on these issues is unlikely to change unless rank and file members demand it of them (and even then, i don't know), but if nothing else, right now community supporters can, as aaron suggested, break rules in the stead of workers --with the workers' approval. it happened at the Fllying Picket the other night.
On that note...
The UFCW is having a Grocery Worker community support rally at the Safeway at Church and Market at 4:00pm this Friday (October 14th). If enough people are interested after the rally, let's march from Safeway to downtown to support the Hotel Workers.
AND since last Sunday's Flying Picket was so successful, let's do it again this Sunday (October 17th) at 7:00pm. Many Hotel Workers asked us to come back. Meet at the corner of Powell and Geary in Union Square. We'll travel from one scab hotel to another with noise makers (drums are great!!), signs, etc.
Spread the word (in multiple languages)!
nat
the union's stance on these issues is unlikely to change unless rank and file members demand it of them (and even then, i don't know), but if nothing else, right now community supporters can, as aaron suggested, break rules in the stead of workers --with the workers' approval. it happened at the Fllying Picket the other night.
On that note...
The UFCW is having a Grocery Worker community support rally at the Safeway at Church and Market at 4:00pm this Friday (October 14th). If enough people are interested after the rally, let's march from Safeway to downtown to support the Hotel Workers.
AND since last Sunday's Flying Picket was so successful, let's do it again this Sunday (October 17th) at 7:00pm. Many Hotel Workers asked us to come back. Meet at the corner of Powell and Geary in Union Square. We'll travel from one scab hotel to another with noise makers (drums are great!!), signs, etc.
Spread the word (in multiple languages)!
nat
I am not exactly defending the union leadership. I just think that you are an asshole and have experienced you talking shit on people who you are supposedly working with. I don't trust you and don't think that anyone should, and I feel like your analysis is really too simple minded. I am not in union leadership and I am not a "rank and file" member of any union and have never been able to be in a union unfortunately. So unlike you I do not have the chance quite yet to say that I am retired, but continue to struggle to work with other people, even if they are grumpy loudmouthed white men.
Don't Mourn, Organize! - the ghost of joe hill
Don't Mourn, Organize! - the ghost of joe hill
Whover you are. Think about this. Most workers would not respect someone who made blanket statements about someone without defining them. We also have little respect for someone who hides their identity.
Obviously, you are entitled to think I'm an "asshole" as you say and you are entitled to think that my analysis is "simple minded", however, neither of these decriptions actually help us understand the political process or really explain what you disagree with in my post.
I strongly encourage you to come out in to the open. No one is going to hurt you, no one is going to call you names. And, most of all, I think you will feel a certain relief from it.
Obviously, you are entitled to think I'm an "asshole" as you say and you are entitled to think that my analysis is "simple minded", however, neither of these decriptions actually help us understand the political process or really explain what you disagree with in my post.
I strongly encourage you to come out in to the open. No one is going to hurt you, no one is going to call you names. And, most of all, I think you will feel a certain relief from it.
For more information:
http://www.laborsmilitantvoice.org
Exactly my point - you try to claim that you speak for workers, or the rank and file, think about that. You don't know the leadership of the unions or the organizers that you talk shit on. If you took time to get to know them and the reasonings behind the shit that they do you might have a different opinion. Instead you try to hide behind some sense of trully representing
the workers that they are trying to work for. I don't believe that everyone of the so called bureacrats are worth defending, but in the case of some of the folks at Local 2, they are. So do workers respect assholes like you that come along with a simple minded analysis making blanket statements against their union as a whole? I don't think so, though most of the things that you point out are obvious problems that most workers understand in one way or another on their own.
The problem I have with you and your cohorts at Labor's Militant Vanguard is that you think so much of yourselves to think that you trully represent the workers and that you hold some sort of special power in being able to know what is right. Which is to say that you are self righteous, dogmatic people that think that you know the truth.
I don't claim to have all the right answers, nor do I think that I am particularly important in the grand scheme of things. I am just one of many nameless people that is struggling to help my folks move forward by struggling alongside them and trying to find ways that we can move forward collectively. I could care less about putting my name or any organizations name forward because I don't think that those things necessarily matter. The point being that many people have similar feelings towards you and your crew, so I could be anyone or I could be no one. It doesn't matter. And as for the notion of feeling threatened by you or your folks, that you even mention that seems to say something about how y'all relate to folks.
Don't Mourn, Organize! - the ghost of joe hill
the workers that they are trying to work for. I don't believe that everyone of the so called bureacrats are worth defending, but in the case of some of the folks at Local 2, they are. So do workers respect assholes like you that come along with a simple minded analysis making blanket statements against their union as a whole? I don't think so, though most of the things that you point out are obvious problems that most workers understand in one way or another on their own.
The problem I have with you and your cohorts at Labor's Militant Vanguard is that you think so much of yourselves to think that you trully represent the workers and that you hold some sort of special power in being able to know what is right. Which is to say that you are self righteous, dogmatic people that think that you know the truth.
I don't claim to have all the right answers, nor do I think that I am particularly important in the grand scheme of things. I am just one of many nameless people that is struggling to help my folks move forward by struggling alongside them and trying to find ways that we can move forward collectively. I could care less about putting my name or any organizations name forward because I don't think that those things necessarily matter. The point being that many people have similar feelings towards you and your crew, so I could be anyone or I could be no one. It doesn't matter. And as for the notion of feeling threatened by you or your folks, that you even mention that seems to say something about how y'all relate to folks.
Don't Mourn, Organize! - the ghost of joe hill
There's going to be a community flying picket in support of the hotel workers, starting at Union Square (Powell and Geary) at 7:00PM on Sunday, October 17.
the first flying picket, held last Sunday, was splendid. let's make this next one even better than that.
the first flying picket, held last Sunday, was splendid. let's make this next one even better than that.
I don't usually think it is worth continuing any serious discussion with people who are afraid to identify themselves and openly defend their ideas, but anonymous does bring up issues that are important to us regardless of his or her refusal to openly identify with them. I say anonymous becasue Joe Hill was a courageous and dedicated individual who died fighting for working people. I do believe he would agree with your approach.
Firsty, with regard to union staffers or officials, I have known many of them over the years. In fact, I have found myself defending them from accusations of corruption and bribery from their members who think these are the reasons for the failure of the Union to represent their interests aggressivly. It is the policies of the union offcials that I do not agree with. In all my years at the Alameda CLC, I had some occcasions to agree with officials and other occasions not to.
It becomes increasingly clear that anonymous is a staffer or official of some sort. No one who listens or spends time among dues paying union members isn't aware of the extreme dislike and, at times, hatred, the dues payer has of the officials. More often than not, this anger is directed at the Union as an organization.
As far as representing workers, it is the officials that represent workers, I don't,, LMV doesn't. Compared to Local 2 or the labor movemetn, our influence and ability to affect the direction of the working class pales by comparison.
I appreciate that you are trying to help "your folks" as you put it.It is also important to struggle alongside us as you also say, but we are not moving forward. Why is this? Is it the responsibility of the meners, of workers, of the folks who pay the dues?
Is it because we are weak? I do not believe it is any of these things, I believe the fault lies with the approach and world view of the leadership of our organizations at the highest levels. I do not believe it is because leaders are corrupt or staffers are on the take as many workers do. I have always argued that most union officals work hard and long hours, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Where corruption exists in the labor movement it is secondary to the world view and subsebuent strategy that flows from that view, and that strategy has devastating consequences for working people.
You might have noticed that I haven't called you an asshole or names like that. Perhaps it is difficult for you to tell us which union you work for or who "your folks" are. I have had friends who worked for unions and they told me it was a stifling atmosphere where the line had to be towed or else.
If you want to share your identity with me privately I certainly don't mind as long as you want to discuss these issues seriously. If not, and you are still afraid of publicy defending your ideas, perhaps you could comment on the problems I have raised. What do you think is the cause for the defeats like the recent grocery workers strike for example and how can we avoid them in the future.
Firsty, with regard to union staffers or officials, I have known many of them over the years. In fact, I have found myself defending them from accusations of corruption and bribery from their members who think these are the reasons for the failure of the Union to represent their interests aggressivly. It is the policies of the union offcials that I do not agree with. In all my years at the Alameda CLC, I had some occcasions to agree with officials and other occasions not to.
It becomes increasingly clear that anonymous is a staffer or official of some sort. No one who listens or spends time among dues paying union members isn't aware of the extreme dislike and, at times, hatred, the dues payer has of the officials. More often than not, this anger is directed at the Union as an organization.
As far as representing workers, it is the officials that represent workers, I don't,, LMV doesn't. Compared to Local 2 or the labor movemetn, our influence and ability to affect the direction of the working class pales by comparison.
I appreciate that you are trying to help "your folks" as you put it.It is also important to struggle alongside us as you also say, but we are not moving forward. Why is this? Is it the responsibility of the meners, of workers, of the folks who pay the dues?
Is it because we are weak? I do not believe it is any of these things, I believe the fault lies with the approach and world view of the leadership of our organizations at the highest levels. I do not believe it is because leaders are corrupt or staffers are on the take as many workers do. I have always argued that most union officals work hard and long hours, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Where corruption exists in the labor movement it is secondary to the world view and subsebuent strategy that flows from that view, and that strategy has devastating consequences for working people.
You might have noticed that I haven't called you an asshole or names like that. Perhaps it is difficult for you to tell us which union you work for or who "your folks" are. I have had friends who worked for unions and they told me it was a stifling atmosphere where the line had to be towed or else.
If you want to share your identity with me privately I certainly don't mind as long as you want to discuss these issues seriously. If not, and you are still afraid of publicy defending your ideas, perhaps you could comment on the problems I have raised. What do you think is the cause for the defeats like the recent grocery workers strike for example and how can we avoid them in the future.
For more information:
http://www.laborsmilitantvoice.org
Obviously, I meant to say, "I do not believe he would agree with your approach" instead of "I do believe he would agree with your approach." with regards to Joe Hill.
For more information:
http://www.laborsmilitantvoice.org
I wouldn't be so sure about Joe Hill feeling so offended by me using his name, since it was a fake name that he took on in his IWW personna and not really his real name either. As for what organization I work for - that doesn't really matter so much either because no matter which way it could it leads to the same problem, even with a small vanguard such as LMV. The point is I could be working with a number of organizations but that still doesn't define who I am, though some might say it limits my critique, in my case I just think that it deepens it. Regardless, the main idea is that power needs to come from the bottom, or ranks, up - and if it doesn't than that is a problem, whether in an organization like LMV or a larger organization like a union. As for what I think went wrong with the So Cal grocery strike - I don't think that I need to get into that so much because people like Natasha have been so helpful as to put an analysis out there, and so have you. Otherwise I am still grappling with what its gonna take to overcome the problems that we saw in the So Cal strike, and trying to figure out what my role can and should be as a supporter of the hotel workers and grocery workers in their current struggles.
more later...
Don't Mourn, Organize! - the ghost of joe hill
more later...
Don't Mourn, Organize! - the ghost of joe hill
Where are the hotel's income going to? A hotel in SF is supposed to charge $100-$140/night. Average areas charge $60 to 80 and when I was in Gallup NM there were a lot at $20/night and a lot of people living w/o water and electricity will go into town to shower. Anyway, that sounds like quite a bit of income. Why are they willing to fight so hard against the union for this? Are hotels on the edge of solvency? Restaurants often also seem very expensive, yet you know that less than half of new restaurants survive, so perhaps they do have a lot of costs. The cafe I washed dishes at had to pay a large amount to get organic ingredients. How could hotels all be on the edge with such an income, and how could hotels survive in less flashy areas with much lower prices? I do know that at my income with a graduate degree, I can't afford to stay in a hotel. Students getting a biology degree at college often get $30,000/year at biotech companies, so who is it that is paying such high prices at the hotel? You would think with $110/night, and perhaps the maids and other staff get a decent $12/hour, so each guest could pay 5 workers to work an hour each, then there would still be $50 for rent and profit for the owner?
First of all, in response to the previous poster, you're obviously anti-worker, so it might be useless to try having this discussion with you, but here goes:
(1) Hotel rates vary based on timeof year and desirability of the location. San Francisco, being a "high end" tourist destination charges high rates. Were you to go to the Grand Canyon in Arizona or near Yellowstone in Wyoming (both anti-union, "right to work" states) you'd find similarly high lodging rates. Gallup, New Mexico is not exactly high on anyone's list of vacation resorts (unless of course, like me, you're a fan of the old Lucille Fletcher / Orsen Welles radio drama, The Hitchiker).
(2) Why shouldn't maids and janitors get paid more moneythan everyone else? They have the least desirable jobs. If we had a reasonable economic system, the most desirable jobs should pay *the least* not vice versa. And don't give me this song and dance about "investing years in a college education". I got two Bachelor's Degrees at UC Berkeley (in Architecture and Art History) and that doesn't even BEGIN to compare with what it is like to have to work in a non-union Italian tile warehouse for $8 / hour and no benefits. I never got so dusty or physically exhausted in my life. Moentary reward should favor self-sacrifice, not privilege.
(3) Finally, as for the "profit" and "owner", my response is that labor creates all wealth. The "profit" rightfully belongs to the workers and by all rights it is *they* who should collectively own the hotel. If you don't believe that, try running any enterprise without workers. Even managers who scab have to do the tasks of manual laborers (and as you can se, they don't do it very well at all!)
In response to "Joe Hill", as a decade-long dues paying member of the IWW who has sacrificed a lot of time and energy into building the organization, I am somewhat offended that you identify with the actual Joe Hill. While he is not alive to speak for himself, I think he would write a song or two about these hotel union officials and their bungeling (I believe Mr. Block would be the most appropriate title, but given time I could think of a few others).
'nuff said.
(1) Hotel rates vary based on timeof year and desirability of the location. San Francisco, being a "high end" tourist destination charges high rates. Were you to go to the Grand Canyon in Arizona or near Yellowstone in Wyoming (both anti-union, "right to work" states) you'd find similarly high lodging rates. Gallup, New Mexico is not exactly high on anyone's list of vacation resorts (unless of course, like me, you're a fan of the old Lucille Fletcher / Orsen Welles radio drama, The Hitchiker).
(2) Why shouldn't maids and janitors get paid more moneythan everyone else? They have the least desirable jobs. If we had a reasonable economic system, the most desirable jobs should pay *the least* not vice versa. And don't give me this song and dance about "investing years in a college education". I got two Bachelor's Degrees at UC Berkeley (in Architecture and Art History) and that doesn't even BEGIN to compare with what it is like to have to work in a non-union Italian tile warehouse for $8 / hour and no benefits. I never got so dusty or physically exhausted in my life. Moentary reward should favor self-sacrifice, not privilege.
(3) Finally, as for the "profit" and "owner", my response is that labor creates all wealth. The "profit" rightfully belongs to the workers and by all rights it is *they* who should collectively own the hotel. If you don't believe that, try running any enterprise without workers. Even managers who scab have to do the tasks of manual laborers (and as you can se, they don't do it very well at all!)
In response to "Joe Hill", as a decade-long dues paying member of the IWW who has sacrificed a lot of time and energy into building the organization, I am somewhat offended that you identify with the actual Joe Hill. While he is not alive to speak for himself, I think he would write a song or two about these hotel union officials and their bungeling (I believe Mr. Block would be the most appropriate title, but given time I could think of a few others).
'nuff said.
For more information:
http://www.iww.org
OK, maybe I spoke a little too soon. The last poster, nbefore me, may or may not be anti-worker. The message is confusing, so it's really hard to tell. If you're *not* anti-worker and did not mean to say that the hotel workers are not being screwed, I apologize.
I don't disagree with you Steve as far as what song the real Joe Hill would have prepared for the Local 2 leadership.
I just disagree with the way that Richard and his crew aproach the issue, especially how they approach the ranks. If they were organizing like the IWW is than I might go a little lighter on them because than at least they would be offering a bit of an alternative, but all they seem to be offering are words of critique and a glossy magazine.
Don't Mourn, Organize - the ghost of joe hill
I just disagree with the way that Richard and his crew aproach the issue, especially how they approach the ranks. If they were organizing like the IWW is than I might go a little lighter on them because than at least they would be offering a bit of an alternative, but all they seem to be offering are words of critique and a glossy magazine.
Don't Mourn, Organize - the ghost of joe hill
How do I approach the ranks, anonymous? And how do you approach them? Can you help the discussion by laying bare these differences.
I have been (before I retired) an active steward and Union activist in the workplace for some 25 years. I concede you have taken a step in the right direction by dropping the name calling and I see you are trying to discuss tactics and approach but you have to be a little more specific so we can clearly understand the differences.
I want to appeal to you to give yourself some credibility and come out in to the open. Working people don't respect people that are afraid to identify with ideas, we are suspicious of them. C'mon anonymous. You will gain a considerable amount of credibility otherwise your comments cannot be taken seriously.
I have been (before I retired) an active steward and Union activist in the workplace for some 25 years. I concede you have taken a step in the right direction by dropping the name calling and I see you are trying to discuss tactics and approach but you have to be a little more specific so we can clearly understand the differences.
I want to appeal to you to give yourself some credibility and come out in to the open. Working people don't respect people that are afraid to identify with ideas, we are suspicious of them. C'mon anonymous. You will gain a considerable amount of credibility otherwise your comments cannot be taken seriously.
For more information:
http://www.laborsmilitantvoice.org
Let me make a flyer with my ideas on it and I will distribute it at the next rally that someone else organized. Who knows maybe I will even come to something that you and your crew in Labor's Mutant Vanguard organized, though I find that unlikely cause it is hard to find something that you specifically organized.
Or better yet I'll come to an event that you organized and talk shit on you, and then tell everyone how to do things right next time.
Or maybe I should just come to your meetings, talk louder than you, and act like everyone likes to hear everything I have to say.
Oh and if things go well, of course I will do my best to take credit for it cause I am god's gift to the working class.
Is that better Richard?
Or better yet I'll come to an event that you organized and talk shit on you, and then tell everyone how to do things right next time.
Or maybe I should just come to your meetings, talk louder than you, and act like everyone likes to hear everything I have to say.
Oh and if things go well, of course I will do my best to take credit for it cause I am god's gift to the working class.
Is that better Richard?
actually, I know who "anonymous" is.
At the rally for the grocery workers yesterday I got into a dispute with a young guy who was oh-so-politcally cool, with a bunch of tatoos all up and down his arm, talking a bunch of junk about the older generation, etc. etc. all the while defending a budding young union bureaucrat. I know you, anonymous; that is who you are.
As for the rally - it wasn't really for the workers; it was for the union officialdom and their left hangers-on to make them all feel good about themselves. But this boycott will not succeed in defending health care benefits.
At the rally for the grocery workers yesterday I got into a dispute with a young guy who was oh-so-politcally cool, with a bunch of tatoos all up and down his arm, talking a bunch of junk about the older generation, etc. etc. all the while defending a budding young union bureaucrat. I know you, anonymous; that is who you are.
As for the rally - it wasn't really for the workers; it was for the union officialdom and their left hangers-on to make them all feel good about themselves. But this boycott will not succeed in defending health care benefits.
For more information:
http://laborsmilitantvoice.com
John,
he's slipped back again. You might have not read his other notes but I managed to get him off the name calling for a bit. I thought it was good progress and was hoping that the next hurdle, actually disussing the issues that the article above was based on, would be next. Eventually, I hoped that being openly associated with his views would be overcome in time also. But this is the hardest hurdle to cross and I'm not sure he'll make it.
I am not one to abandon a good challenge but I'm not sure this one isn't a lost cause. And whay do I think this. Hell, I prayed to St. Jude the patron saint of lost causes and what's the result, he drifts backwards.
This is what being in the Union heirarchy does for you.
he's slipped back again. You might have not read his other notes but I managed to get him off the name calling for a bit. I thought it was good progress and was hoping that the next hurdle, actually disussing the issues that the article above was based on, would be next. Eventually, I hoped that being openly associated with his views would be overcome in time also. But this is the hardest hurdle to cross and I'm not sure he'll make it.
I am not one to abandon a good challenge but I'm not sure this one isn't a lost cause. And whay do I think this. Hell, I prayed to St. Jude the patron saint of lost causes and what's the result, he drifts backwards.
This is what being in the Union heirarchy does for you.
For more information:
http://www.laborsmilitantvoice.org
Your so cute. Look at how you stick together trying to figure out who is talking shit on your little vanguard.
---------------------------------------------------
All this debate makes ya wonder though - What if you guys and your little vanguard held power in the unions? Would things be a whole lot more democratic? Would you be able to shut up long enough to listen to the ranks? Would you be able to build alliances among working people that are necessary to win? Or it would it be more of the same with different white men in power?
Beneath this whole debate might it just be that you just wish you and your group were in power? At least than the ranks would have a glossier journal to put their ideas in and see their names in print.
---------------------------------------------------
All this debate makes ya wonder though - What if you guys and your little vanguard held power in the unions? Would things be a whole lot more democratic? Would you be able to shut up long enough to listen to the ranks? Would you be able to build alliances among working people that are necessary to win? Or it would it be more of the same with different white men in power?
Beneath this whole debate might it just be that you just wish you and your group were in power? At least than the ranks would have a glossier journal to put their ideas in and see their names in print.
This thread is extremely entertaining. Someone is finally calling LMV on their shit and all they can say is:
1) that anonymous has no right to talk unless s/he identifies themself
2) that they know who this person is
3) s/he obviously works for the union beaurocrats
not really sure if the LMV folks get the point, but it is not that you don't represent rank and file workers or that someone wants to remain anonymous. It is the how you claim to organize. If someone does not agree with you, you end up writing some bullshit inflamatory article talking shit on groups who don't see your side.
While I do agree with alot of what you folks have written about the labor leadership, but really, who doesnt? I have seen you all in action. What makes you different from the RCP or trots? -- other than the fact that you claim to want democracy in the unions. You call how you folks act democracy?
It's really unfortunate the IWW folks come to the defense of such a sad group. I have alot of respect for the IWW. You should really check where your alliances are steve. As a rank and file worker who can't stand to work with dinosaur sectarians, why would I want to work with someone who defends the likes of LMV?
anonymous autonomist
1) that anonymous has no right to talk unless s/he identifies themself
2) that they know who this person is
3) s/he obviously works for the union beaurocrats
not really sure if the LMV folks get the point, but it is not that you don't represent rank and file workers or that someone wants to remain anonymous. It is the how you claim to organize. If someone does not agree with you, you end up writing some bullshit inflamatory article talking shit on groups who don't see your side.
While I do agree with alot of what you folks have written about the labor leadership, but really, who doesnt? I have seen you all in action. What makes you different from the RCP or trots? -- other than the fact that you claim to want democracy in the unions. You call how you folks act democracy?
It's really unfortunate the IWW folks come to the defense of such a sad group. I have alot of respect for the IWW. You should really check where your alliances are steve. As a rank and file worker who can't stand to work with dinosaur sectarians, why would I want to work with someone who defends the likes of LMV?
anonymous autonomist
We are 100% volunteer and depend on your participation to sustain our efforts!
Donate
$30.00 donated
in the past month
Get Involved
If you'd like to help with maintaining or developing the website, contact us.
Publish
Publish your stories and upcoming events on Indybay.
Topics
More
Search Indybay's Archives
Advanced Search
►
▼
IMC Network