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Indybay Feature
Charges dropped against Oakland port protesters
Over a year since Oakland police opened fire with wooden bullets and metal-shot bags against protesters at the Oakland docks, even though video demonstrated that they had been nonviolent, charges were dropped against 24 arrestees.
The district attorneys' office is saying that the charges were dropped because the protesters haven't been rearrested during the subsequent year, so they are behaving as though the arrested individuals actually did commit some sort of crime by standing out at the docks with signs, but they are just choosing to let them off with a warning. However, there is no evidence available for the DA to use to convict the protesters. They were attempting to disperse, especially after the police opened fire soon after appearing on the scene, already dressed in gas masks. The police even blocked the route to dispersal for many protesters by standing in lines with guns and pepper spray across the road.
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Great news! All of the charges against the Oakland 25 anti-war protesters
> (including Local 10 Business Agent Jack Heyman) were dropped today in court.
> The bogus charges stemmed from police arrests after a peaceful protest
> against the Iraq war profiteers, APL and SSA, in the port on April 7, 2003.
> This is a complete victory for the defendants! However, the bloody war and
> repression continue. ILWU Local 10 is the lead plaintiff in a suit in
> Federal Court against the Oakland Police Department for its brutal attack
> against anti-war protesters and longshore workers.
> Thanks to all who have supported our struggle with solidarity faxes,
> donations and participation in defense rallies over the last year.
> In solidarity,
> Jack Heyman
> (including Local 10 Business Agent Jack Heyman) were dropped today in court.
> The bogus charges stemmed from police arrests after a peaceful protest
> against the Iraq war profiteers, APL and SSA, in the port on April 7, 2003.
> This is a complete victory for the defendants! However, the bloody war and
> repression continue. ILWU Local 10 is the lead plaintiff in a suit in
> Federal Court against the Oakland Police Department for its brutal attack
> against anti-war protesters and longshore workers.
> Thanks to all who have supported our struggle with solidarity faxes,
> donations and participation in defense rallies over the last year.
> In solidarity,
> Jack Heyman
So, Nessie,
Posting a snippy and pedantic note at indybay, is your idea of explaining something to Jack Heyman and the rank and file of ILWU Local 10?
I think that probably explains most of the problem with you. That was wonderfully specific. Thank you very much.
Posting a snippy and pedantic note at indybay, is your idea of explaining something to Jack Heyman and the rank and file of ILWU Local 10?
I think that probably explains most of the problem with you. That was wonderfully specific. Thank you very much.
http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/style.php
Style Over Substance
Definition:
The manner in which an argument (or arguer) is presented is taken to affect the likelihood that the conclusion is true. Examples:
i. Nixon lost the presidential debate because of the sweat on his forehead.
ii. Trudeau knows how to move a crowd. He must be right.
iii. Why don't you take the advice of that nicely dressed young man?
Proof:
While it is true that the manner in which an argument is presented will affect whether people believe that its conclusion is true, nonetheless, the truth of the conclusion does not depend on the manner in which the argument is presented. In order to show that this fallacy is being committed, show that the style in this case does not affect the truth or falsity of the conclusion.
References:
Davis: 61 26 May 1995
Style Over Substance
Definition:
The manner in which an argument (or arguer) is presented is taken to affect the likelihood that the conclusion is true. Examples:
i. Nixon lost the presidential debate because of the sweat on his forehead.
ii. Trudeau knows how to move a crowd. He must be right.
iii. Why don't you take the advice of that nicely dressed young man?
Proof:
While it is true that the manner in which an argument is presented will affect whether people believe that its conclusion is true, nonetheless, the truth of the conclusion does not depend on the manner in which the argument is presented. In order to show that this fallacy is being committed, show that the style in this case does not affect the truth or falsity of the conclusion.
References:
Davis: 61 26 May 1995
That's all well and good. But the Jack Heyman and the rank and file of ILWU #10 aren't at Indybay. They're at the Oakland Docks, where the protesters went, for which you criticized them.
You're dodging the question of the efficacy of the alternative you're allegedly proposing, in your critique of said protesters, with debate-rhetorical details. Very chairman of you.
To reiterate: The people you criticize went to the docks to express themselves on the war. They called for help here, then went there, and then they talked about it afterwards, here. You came here to Indybay, and you criticized them here for their actions there, and then when I called you on it, you said that you had explained yourself to the workers-- by posting here.
My point: at root, who's got the disconnect?
You're dodging the question of the efficacy of the alternative you're allegedly proposing, in your critique of said protesters, with debate-rhetorical details. Very chairman of you.
To reiterate: The people you criticize went to the docks to express themselves on the war. They called for help here, then went there, and then they talked about it afterwards, here. You came here to Indybay, and you criticized them here for their actions there, and then when I called you on it, you said that you had explained yourself to the workers-- by posting here.
My point: at root, who's got the disconnect?
"at least do something semi-productive while you are on the internet...other than offering your "wisdom", rantings, or pointers..."
You said it! Until then, don't bother with Nessie. If he posts something, anything, simply ignore it. Eventually, he'll go where his wizdumb is appreciated.
You said it! Until then, don't bother with Nessie. If he posts something, anything, simply ignore it. Eventually, he'll go where his wizdumb is appreciated.
"racist" nessie: "I’m not talking shit, I’m the truth."
Getting a bit of a messiah complex there, are we, "racist" nessie?
@%<
Getting a bit of a messiah complex there, are we, "racist" nessie?
@%<
Hey this has been a typical nessie vs. the sane world argument. I actually think that nessie has a point about the effectiveness of actions, does his point negate the importance of being a visible opposition to the war, no of course not. He just has to be a jerk about it and make it seem that way.
I keep thinking that there is a gap in what is passing for organizing and it relates to the tactics and apparent lack of stategy of the "movement". It seems like everybody is playing from the Answer play deck, as in if we keep organizing demonstrations then people will get it and then either consider getting involved or electing kerry? But numbers are sort of staying stagnant or decreasing, and I for one am burned out and feeling ineffective. And then there are these people that call for vague militancy or sabotage, that really may or may not be effective because of the same limiting factors that minimize the effectiveness of street protest.
Hooking up with and offering solidarity to the labor movement is a great idea. But what can activists learn from the labor movement? A bit of a rhetorical question, but is there radical organizing that people are doing that is not so in the streets, like among coworkers or neighbors. I hope other people are thinking about what it means to be effective and bring down the root cause of war, there are no easy answers though.
I keep thinking that there is a gap in what is passing for organizing and it relates to the tactics and apparent lack of stategy of the "movement". It seems like everybody is playing from the Answer play deck, as in if we keep organizing demonstrations then people will get it and then either consider getting involved or electing kerry? But numbers are sort of staying stagnant or decreasing, and I for one am burned out and feeling ineffective. And then there are these people that call for vague militancy or sabotage, that really may or may not be effective because of the same limiting factors that minimize the effectiveness of street protest.
Hooking up with and offering solidarity to the labor movement is a great idea. But what can activists learn from the labor movement? A bit of a rhetorical question, but is there radical organizing that people are doing that is not so in the streets, like among coworkers or neighbors. I hope other people are thinking about what it means to be effective and bring down the root cause of war, there are no easy answers though.
You think community solidarity and freedom of speech rights at work are "symbolic"?
That is exactly why you'd get your ass laughed out of the union hall, before you'd even get to the messiah part of yourself.
It's just not fair that people don't really care what you think of yourself, is it, nessie? especially when you have so much to share...
That is exactly why you'd get your ass laughed out of the union hall, before you'd even get to the messiah part of yourself.
It's just not fair that people don't really care what you think of yourself, is it, nessie? especially when you have so much to share...
...and that's why they leave "the movement" in droves. Why put up with any given group's equivalent of nessie, or become one trying to keep a group focused and effective, when you can, instead, for example, go get a good union job that pays you enough to live on and gives you the opportunity to, for example, defend free speech rights for labor and occasionally bring a meaningful part of the machine to a screeching halt? while putting up with a lot less of other people's bullshit.
that said, here's some bullshitting from me. you're fairly warned.
at root, to stop war, i think we have to change people's ideas about the world. we don't do much of that by preaching, whether we're serious or frivolous while doing it. it's more possible to do when you get to know people and accept them on their terms, which is to say, with a little humility. it's amazing how many people are against the system and its wars. but they'd never tell that to an activist. that's something to really think about.
just to completely digress... if i were in the Palestinian leadership, and really wanted to stop Israel's war against my people, I would buy as much prime-time advertizing as I could in the USA. I would bombard the American public with images of normal, happy Palestinians-- grandmas and grandpas holding each other and smiling, little kids playing, young people at college, just married couples buying their first home in the suburbs, just in time to have their first child. I'd do my best to convince America that most Palestinians are normal human beings with aspirations just like theirs, i.e. the simple truth. Right now, on the other hand, the Palestinians have a chronic PR disaster on their hands in America. PA leadership gerates the image, and so the average American thinks, that the average Palestinian is or has or otherwise encourages a molly-throwing teenage-hoodlum boy, and worse, and so that warps the perspective when the tanks go in. you gotta "control" people like that. people like the average demonstrator. you gotta give someone a lot of military aid to control people like that, or do it yourself.
i'm not saying that's right. that is what average people think, or worse yet, it's what they think they should think. they are silent when they don't think that but think they should think that. and then we criticize their silence, when it's our very opening. do-oh!
image problems. palestinians, for their part, might leverage the wealth made available to at least some of those who have immigrated to the usa, to wage such a campaign. they might try to build their enfranchisement in the political system here, as a counterweight to use to affect what goes on over there. isn't it funny how, for all the wealth in arab america, there is so little social presence for it? that is a crisis of arab-american leadership. how might we intervene in that? you think yasser arafat's family lives in the west bank? haw! more like paris. we lose our chances to build credibility with average palestinians when we blindly support people like that, even indirectly. even ignorantly. especially when it's willful-- like at a demo.
american enfranchisement. hey, it worked for the jews, right? the situation was far from the current one for the jews for most of history, and you know what? it wouldn't hurt us to acknowledge that fact just a little more often. it is common sense to the average viewer. do the jews "deserve" this either? our equivocations on this are at best ineffective, and at worst corrosively hypocritical, symbology.
i know i risk a lot of flameage saying all this, but i hope that for it, you can see my point. i think our primary goal should be getting our country (and i say that as a convinced non-nationalist) to see the world differently. to see people as people. to see them as us. it might not be the best we can dream up, but it would be a hell of a lot better than how we're currently doing. it would make a meaningful contribution to other peoples' own struggles. and we could even have demos meanwhile.
demos have their place, but we seem to prefer a steady diet of them. we've built a counter-monoculture.
symbolism matters an awful lot. it is how mass opinion is manipulated. we're at a disadvantage because we want more than mass manipulation. if we were smart, we'd see a role for that, and organize accordingly. you have to admit that move on is doing some great work on this front and are having a lot of fun too. but we remain scared of things like money and teevee and large scale. we march in our own mental shackles.
maybe we could do something more than we do to embrace other cultures. again, that means leaving the preaching behind for the likes of nessie. and "more radical" won't help much either with that. but that's another whole digression.
blah blah blah. your turn.
that said, here's some bullshitting from me. you're fairly warned.
at root, to stop war, i think we have to change people's ideas about the world. we don't do much of that by preaching, whether we're serious or frivolous while doing it. it's more possible to do when you get to know people and accept them on their terms, which is to say, with a little humility. it's amazing how many people are against the system and its wars. but they'd never tell that to an activist. that's something to really think about.
just to completely digress... if i were in the Palestinian leadership, and really wanted to stop Israel's war against my people, I would buy as much prime-time advertizing as I could in the USA. I would bombard the American public with images of normal, happy Palestinians-- grandmas and grandpas holding each other and smiling, little kids playing, young people at college, just married couples buying their first home in the suburbs, just in time to have their first child. I'd do my best to convince America that most Palestinians are normal human beings with aspirations just like theirs, i.e. the simple truth. Right now, on the other hand, the Palestinians have a chronic PR disaster on their hands in America. PA leadership gerates the image, and so the average American thinks, that the average Palestinian is or has or otherwise encourages a molly-throwing teenage-hoodlum boy, and worse, and so that warps the perspective when the tanks go in. you gotta "control" people like that. people like the average demonstrator. you gotta give someone a lot of military aid to control people like that, or do it yourself.
i'm not saying that's right. that is what average people think, or worse yet, it's what they think they should think. they are silent when they don't think that but think they should think that. and then we criticize their silence, when it's our very opening. do-oh!
image problems. palestinians, for their part, might leverage the wealth made available to at least some of those who have immigrated to the usa, to wage such a campaign. they might try to build their enfranchisement in the political system here, as a counterweight to use to affect what goes on over there. isn't it funny how, for all the wealth in arab america, there is so little social presence for it? that is a crisis of arab-american leadership. how might we intervene in that? you think yasser arafat's family lives in the west bank? haw! more like paris. we lose our chances to build credibility with average palestinians when we blindly support people like that, even indirectly. even ignorantly. especially when it's willful-- like at a demo.
american enfranchisement. hey, it worked for the jews, right? the situation was far from the current one for the jews for most of history, and you know what? it wouldn't hurt us to acknowledge that fact just a little more often. it is common sense to the average viewer. do the jews "deserve" this either? our equivocations on this are at best ineffective, and at worst corrosively hypocritical, symbology.
i know i risk a lot of flameage saying all this, but i hope that for it, you can see my point. i think our primary goal should be getting our country (and i say that as a convinced non-nationalist) to see the world differently. to see people as people. to see them as us. it might not be the best we can dream up, but it would be a hell of a lot better than how we're currently doing. it would make a meaningful contribution to other peoples' own struggles. and we could even have demos meanwhile.
demos have their place, but we seem to prefer a steady diet of them. we've built a counter-monoculture.
symbolism matters an awful lot. it is how mass opinion is manipulated. we're at a disadvantage because we want more than mass manipulation. if we were smart, we'd see a role for that, and organize accordingly. you have to admit that move on is doing some great work on this front and are having a lot of fun too. but we remain scared of things like money and teevee and large scale. we march in our own mental shackles.
maybe we could do something more than we do to embrace other cultures. again, that means leaving the preaching behind for the likes of nessie. and "more radical" won't help much either with that. but that's another whole digression.
blah blah blah. your turn.
Better to die on your feet than to live on your knees.
than to kiss its ass in public.
Get off the damn computer and go to bed. Then it will be easier to think about fighting capitalism on the computer, in your dreams. Or you could just stay up, get no sleep, and become even more delusional about your capabilities.
Or you could just do something other than trolling Indybay and offering yr wisdom to those who never asked for it, well other than occasionally for a good laugh.
Or you could just do something other than trolling Indybay and offering yr wisdom to those who never asked for it, well other than occasionally for a good laugh.
When is the first Direct action to stop the war weapons training? United for peace and justice day at the gun range? Answer teach in on urban warfair?
Things are looking up.
smirky smirk
Things are looking up.
smirky smirk
It's one thing to decide that for yourself, mr. chairman, but quite another to decide that for other people.
enjoy your trip to sla-land. count me out.
enjoy your trip to sla-land. count me out.
Someone has to do that. Someone who's qualified should set up a shooting range nite. I've never fired a gun.
It's not even insurrection. It's a degrading debasement, stooped to by those who lack the foresight, the insight and the intestinal fortitude to do what it will really take to make substantive change on this planet.
People go out in the street and politely beg the powers that be to please stop doing quite so much evil, at least for a while, as soon as they find it convenient, please sir, if you don’t mind, sir, please.
Revolution!?! Give me a break. That's no more revolutionary than politely requesting your rapist use a little grease.
Even rioting is more revolutionary than protesting. And we've all seen how much good they do. They’re nothing but ways to blow off some steam. In the morning, it business again as usual.
In a riot at, least you get some exercise. But at a protest, all you get is a chance to feel self righteous. Results, you do not get. Change you do not create. Progress, you do not make. Thirteen million people protested on the same day last spring. What frikkin good did it do? Did it stop the war? Did it save a single life or slow imperialism’s advance one iota? What oppression did it eliminate? Who was less exploited afterward?
Protest alone is a dead end. It’s sole and only virtue is as a networking matrix. Outside of that it accomplishes nothing. There is no point whatsoever in appealing to our rulers’ better nature. They don’t have one. They are ruthless, amoral and armed to the teeth. To them, we are nothing but livestock. There will be neither peace nor justice on this planet until every last one of them dies, and all their lackeys with them. There is no other way, and even that will not be enough. We must also prevent others from taking their place, and we must develop the effective social mechanisms we need to enable us to function as an economy without them in command.
And we can do this, all of it and more, if we but have the collective will.
In the meantime, if you really want them to not do quite so much evil, make it physically impossible for them to do so. Destroy the machine that supports their tyranny. Fold, spindle and mutilate it. Break it. Burn it. Smash it down. Put sugar in its gas tanks and sand in its gearboxes. Short out its circuits and clog up its intake ports. Erase its data. Deafen its sensors. Puncture its tires. Glue up its locks. Jam its valves. Blind its surveillance cams. Flood it with disinformation. Reroute its shipping. Rewrite its inventory reports. Forge bills of lading. Drain its accounts. Confuse it with lies within lies within lies within lies. Lure it into cul de sacs and leave it there to rust. Cut off its spare parts supply. Find choke points in its supply chain and attack, attack, attack, and then attack again. Strike from ambush. Hit and run. Leave false trails, strewn with red herrings, and leading in circles. Send it off on wild goose chases and laugh as it passes your hideout. Infiltrate. Exfiltrate. Survive to fight again. Never give up. There’s a world at stake, and six billion lives. It’s too nice a planet to surrender without a fight.
Enough with symbolic resistance. Get real for a change. Get results.
Talk’s cheap. Put up or shut up. Direct action gets the goods.
People go out in the street and politely beg the powers that be to please stop doing quite so much evil, at least for a while, as soon as they find it convenient, please sir, if you don’t mind, sir, please.
Revolution!?! Give me a break. That's no more revolutionary than politely requesting your rapist use a little grease.
Even rioting is more revolutionary than protesting. And we've all seen how much good they do. They’re nothing but ways to blow off some steam. In the morning, it business again as usual.
In a riot at, least you get some exercise. But at a protest, all you get is a chance to feel self righteous. Results, you do not get. Change you do not create. Progress, you do not make. Thirteen million people protested on the same day last spring. What frikkin good did it do? Did it stop the war? Did it save a single life or slow imperialism’s advance one iota? What oppression did it eliminate? Who was less exploited afterward?
Protest alone is a dead end. It’s sole and only virtue is as a networking matrix. Outside of that it accomplishes nothing. There is no point whatsoever in appealing to our rulers’ better nature. They don’t have one. They are ruthless, amoral and armed to the teeth. To them, we are nothing but livestock. There will be neither peace nor justice on this planet until every last one of them dies, and all their lackeys with them. There is no other way, and even that will not be enough. We must also prevent others from taking their place, and we must develop the effective social mechanisms we need to enable us to function as an economy without them in command.
And we can do this, all of it and more, if we but have the collective will.
In the meantime, if you really want them to not do quite so much evil, make it physically impossible for them to do so. Destroy the machine that supports their tyranny. Fold, spindle and mutilate it. Break it. Burn it. Smash it down. Put sugar in its gas tanks and sand in its gearboxes. Short out its circuits and clog up its intake ports. Erase its data. Deafen its sensors. Puncture its tires. Glue up its locks. Jam its valves. Blind its surveillance cams. Flood it with disinformation. Reroute its shipping. Rewrite its inventory reports. Forge bills of lading. Drain its accounts. Confuse it with lies within lies within lies within lies. Lure it into cul de sacs and leave it there to rust. Cut off its spare parts supply. Find choke points in its supply chain and attack, attack, attack, and then attack again. Strike from ambush. Hit and run. Leave false trails, strewn with red herrings, and leading in circles. Send it off on wild goose chases and laugh as it passes your hideout. Infiltrate. Exfiltrate. Survive to fight again. Never give up. There’s a world at stake, and six billion lives. It’s too nice a planet to surrender without a fight.
Enough with symbolic resistance. Get real for a change. Get results.
Talk’s cheap. Put up or shut up. Direct action gets the goods.
"Talk’s cheap. Put up or shut up. Direct action gets the goods."...
by the way what the fucks up with the rape analogies?
get off the internet, destroy the right wing!! - kh
by the way what the fucks up with the rape analogies?
get off the internet, destroy the right wing!! - kh
Except perhaps for cannibalism, there is no better analogy for what the capitalists are doing to our planet and its people. The only appropriate response to rape is swift, violent resitance.
Capitalism cannot be reformed. It's like trying to reform cannibalism. What are you going to do, only eat strangers, and then it's alright!?!
Capitalism cannot be reformed. It's like trying to reform cannibalism. What are you going to do, only eat strangers, and then it's alright!?!
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