Bring back the lions.

Dude, you are soooo clueless. Israel is like the only country in the middlle east that has gay rights...The Arabs will KILL you for being queer.

Queers are no more free in Israel than they are in Turkey, which is a middle eastern Islamic country. They are maybe tolerated more (allowed to oppress Palestinians by joining the army). But acceptance of gays in Israel is a new phenomenon, sparked more by liberal American Jews than anything the Israeli government, Likud, Shas, etc. has ever done. Also, try praying at the Western Wall with your lesbian lover and see how free you are to be queer in Israel. Fact is, there is much hatred and killing of queers in Israel. Don't ask me, ask Black Laundry:
http://www.inthesetimes.com/issue/26/21/culture2.shtml

Gay Zionists always bring up this myth of Israel being tolerant of gays in order to mislead people into believing Israel is a democracy. It's a lie and a very thin one at that. For example, queer Arabs do not enjoy the same rights as queer Jews. Queer Palestinians do not enjoy the freedom of movement, thanks to Israel, that Israeli queers do, thus preventing them from networking and building a queer community and organizing against bigotry in their community. If Israel would back the fuck off and stop the wholesale murder of Palestinians, maybe folks could breath a little and begin a process of self-determination that allows a more pluralistic culture. But in the meantime, who are you to criticize that which you have helped to create?

Queers in the middle east are likely to live under US sponsored dictatorships/monarchies that oppress all groups, such as the communist party, people of the Ba'hai faith, ethnic groups, feminists, etc. It's also important to remember that the US claims itself as a free country, yet it was only last month that the Supreme Court announced that criminalizing gay people was wrong. Hello?

Anyway, if anything, queers know very well what oppression feels like and we stand in solidarity with those, such as the Palestinians, who are also oppressed. There are many fringe characters in our community. From gay Republicans to gay neo-nazis. I count gay Zionists among them.

It is false to claim that Queers have immunity in Israel.
Just months ago a couple stralling the streets of jerusalem was arrested for fondling eachother publically.
The two were handcaffed beaten and even detained for showering love on one another.

"If Israel would back the fuck off and stop the wholesale murder of Palestinians, maybe folks could breath a little and begin a process of self-determination that allows a more pluralistic culture. But in the meantime, who are you to criticize that which you have helped to create?"

Hear that folks? Israel is the cause of repressive Arab culture! The repression of gays in Arab countries is all Israel's doing!

Remember you heard it here on indymedia first!

Israel represses all Arabs regardless of their sexual orientation.
It is safer to be Gay in an Arab culture than Arab in a Jewish culture.
By the way, all religious communities are not accepting of homosexuality.
Why do you concentrate on the Arabs when you can focus on Christianity and Zionists as well?
The treatment of the two boys by the Israeli 'law enforcement' is more than enough to show that Zionists are homophobic...

hahahaHA

Wow, are there any sweeping generalizations there you _forgot_ to make?

@%<

The anti-israel liars above are actually FUNNY.

I like how when they find it impossible to make any points based in reality, they resort to just making stuff up.

Israel doesn't commit "wholesale murder" of palestinians. If they did, israel could have killed 50,000 of them this weekend, or 50,000 of them any given weekend in the 90's, 80's, 70's or 60's, and while arabs TRIED to do that to israel over and over and over, israel COULD HAVE BUT NEVER HAS done anything like that to arabs.

Furthermore, israel has gay pride parades every year. In arab countries you need to be gay privately in your own home. To compare the two is idiotic.

Furthermore, arab citizens of israel are living much better and more free lives than arab citizens of iran, iraq and other crapholes.

Furthermore, when arab countries controlled the land palestinians lived on, they didn't form a palestinian state, all they did was keep attacking israel and then whine and cry like babies when they were unable to commit holocaust 2.

When palestinians can be nice little children, israel will give them land control. Israel tried it in the 90's but palestnians insisted on using the opportunity to keep trying to murder jews.

My mom taught me not to attack armed soldiers when those armed soldiers aren't hurting me. Morons who attack anyway are bound to be hurt back, arrested, or possibly killed.

You are the same retards who want to throw bombs at cops and then cry and whine and write articles all over the internet about police brutality when the cops get mad and attack you back.

"Israel doesn't commit "wholesale murder" of palestinians. If they did, israel could have killed 50,000 of them this weekend, or 50,000 of them any given weekend in the 90's, 80's, 70's or 60's, and while arabs TRIED to do that to israel over and over and over, israel COULD HAVE BUT NEVER HAS done anything like that to arabs."

Oh, excuse me. Israel finally withdrew from 2 "palestinian cities" this weekend. Nevermind the fact that Israel was the invader all this time. Nevermind the fact that your fucked-up, so-called, Jewish homeland is built on bones and blood of those you've maliciously conquered with the help of anti-semitic governments.

How many Israelis attrocities have to be played out before YOU can realize that Israel is the aggressor?

"Furthermore, israel has gay pride parades every year. In arab countries you need to be gay privately in your own home. To compare the two is idiotic."

For the last four years; tops. There's no pride there. Israelis would be tolerant of child molesters so long as they could fight in the IDF.

I know that's inflammatory to say and I'm queer, so I know there is no distinction between rapists, child molesters and queers. However, my point remains. Israel doesn't differentiate who pulls the trigger.

"Furthermore, arab citizens of israel are living much better and more free lives than arab citizens of iran, iraq and other crapholes."

Crapholes? My point persuaded by you. I don't even believe you are a true middle easterner. Probably another Ashkenazi racist from Brooklyn.

"Furthermore, when arab countries controlled the land palestinians lived on, they didn't form a palestinian state, all they did was keep attacking israel and then whine and cry like babies when they were unable to commit holocaust 2."

There was much resistance against the Ottomans from both the Jewish, Islamic, Christians inhabitants of the region than anyone else. It had nothing to do with the Zionist bible-thumpers who were like fish out of water in the region.

"When palestinians can be nice little children, israel will give them land control. Israel tried it in the 90's but palestnians insisted on using the opportunity to keep trying to murder jews."

When Jews will stop acting like their abusive parents, the Eastern European fascists, then the people of the region will live free. The Stern gang wasn't indigenous to pre-1947 Israel. Before the Zionists, Jews, Christians, and Muslims lived in harmony and were ethnically close. The western, anti-semitic nations are the creators of modern day Israel, and it's no surprise that their ex-patriots are the modern day inhabitors.

"My mom taught me not to attack armed soldiers when those armed soldiers aren't hurting me. Morons who attack anyway are bound to be hurt back, arrested, or possibly killed."

Why are those armed soldiers there to begin with, except for conquest and oppression. How little the children of Israel learn, yet they are the loudest complainers.

"You are the same retards who want to throw bombs at cops and then cry and whine and write articles all over the internet about police brutality when the cops get mad and attack you back."

You are the cowards who hide behind the gun and then complain when people fire back.

As long as Zionist Israelis enjoy the freedom of life behind the gun, then shall they reap the devastion of the lives they've claimed. That is not a terrorist statement, it's the truth. And the truth will eventually hit the zionists like a ton of bricks.

Free Palestine! Free the Jewish and Christian people from Zionism!

It's more like saying, "He hit my fist with his face" or "Israel surrounded my suicide bomb with illegal settlers." How about "It isn't rape because he refused to rape her (in spite of her insistence)".

It's more like that. People attack Israel and complain when Israel hits back. You want a world where you can throw rocks and still be the victim.

Not gonna happen.

US drug-war ads say drugs fund terrorism. Terrorism begins/ends with fundamentalist Israeli settler land theft:

NY Times on "Christian Zionist" Tom Delay of TEXAS. Majority leader of U.S. House. Article:

"Israel steals land, murders and terrorizes innocent civilians, and then complainwhen it gets a dose of its own medicine."

Israel hasn't been the one complaining. Israel has been doing something about it, and the terrorists and their supporters do not like it. You want Jews out of your land? Fine, we'll build a wall, and none of you can work here anymore. Go wallow in your own hate.

A really good post. I wonder how many anti-Zionists here will be able to actually recognize themselves in it.

@%<

ISRAEL KEEPS FLAUNTING ITS NON AGRESSIVENESS BY SAYING IT COULD HAVE EXTERMINATED ALOT MORE PEOPLE AS IT HAVE THE MEANS BUT HAS CHOSEN NOT TO PURSUE THAT OPTIOM SO FAR...

THATS' LIKE NAZIS CLAIMING THEY COULD KILL THOUSANDS MORE, BUT INSTEAD KILLED "ONLY" SIX MILLION.

The nazis fascilitated the transfer of locals to Palestine.
They were the 'bad cop' to the 'good cop' which the Zionazis play.
To be an obedient zionazi one has to completely disregard historical proof and label those who choose to disseminate it as antisemites.
It is not an educational endevor at all... bur a educationally stifling ne and most should stop pursuing it, for their own emotional health!

The right wing fundamentalists from all 3 religions (Christianity, Judaism and Islam) are ALL homophobic, patriarchal and violent. This is far more commonality than difference, so if people are comparing homophobia in Israel, Iran or America, you can find right wing fundies in all three religions pushing the same agenda..

Any nation that bases itself on a religion (or lack of) is going to be discriminatory. The endless conflict between Islam, Judaism and Christianity is spiraling towards the "End Times" led by the fundy leaders. The initial article is about Chrisitian Zionists upcoming conference, the backers of this are the right wing Christian Coalition and other very homophobic forces..

You will not have peace through any organized religion. Anyone (priests, rabbis, imans) who thinks they can understand and define the Universe are severely deluded and are leading people on an endless path to nowhere. The people of Earth are tired of this senseless bickering between these three religions and their patriarchal leaders..

After all this, relgion is still the opiate and cyanide of the people..

It is impossible to be a judeo-christian. You will either hate the one master or love the other. A little leaven(the law of Judaism) leaveneth the whole lump. To be a Zionist is incompatible with Christianity. Only Jews are Zionists, Christians are just charitable to Israel. Ask a learned Jew if you dare not trust the truth.

Stated purpose of Aug. 2003 "Christian Zionist" conference. Land theft of Gaza, West Bank

Read the history and goals of Christian Zionism at this San Francisco conference web page:
http://www.schindlersark.com/history.htm

Land theft of East Jerusalem, Gaza, and the West Bank ("Samaria and Judea") are clearly approved nowadays. See purposes section at the end.

Here is the URL of the web page with more of the images of the flyer-posters for the August 2-6 2003 "Christian Zionist" San Francisco conference:
http://www.schindlersark.com/upcom.htm

July 24 2003 New York Times article on "Christian Zionist" Tom Delay of TEXAS. Republican Majority leader of U.S. House.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cannabisaction/message/879

The above 4 or 5 posts are basically idiotic.

Do any of you actually expect to be taken seriously?

Why don't you stick to an actual balanced reality with israel and palestine and stop all the baseless propaganda crap. You israel-haters just discredit yourselves when you leave the realm of reality and go into these nutty "zionist" rants.

I plan on going to this event to hear these people in their own words. I don't doubt that some of what you say is true but I want to hear for myself and come to my own conclusions.

May Debate Coach's mother develop cancer and die in his arms just as he's typing more of his useless shit.

"Hello" is fairly typical of our enemies. Keep that in mind as you choose sides. Do you want to side with people who wish cancer on others, or with people who wish you health, peace and plenty?

hi: "It's like, there are tons of christian religious groups, but they don't necessarily represent the views of the average person on this planet who identifies as a Christian."

And there are Christian groups that aren't based on the same kind of eschatological madness of the group whose poster is above.

But think about it -- if it's standard operating procedure at Indybay to demonize all Jewish Zionists by pointing only to their extremists and pretending they represent the whole, and to point to the extremist Neturai Karta and pretending they represent "real Judaism," why wouldn't they also point to the most extremist of the Christians who support Israel -- or at leasts don't want to see it wiped off the face of the earth -- and pretend _they_ represent "Christian Zionism"?

@%<

""Hello" is fairly typical of our enemies."

What bullshit. That's like if I were to say that the anti-Zionist poster brian, who turned out to be a Holocaust denier and defender of David Irving is somehow "fairly typical" of the anti-Zionists.

By the way, did I miss the plebiscite whereby you were given the authority to declare who Indybay's enemies are?

@%<

Hello: "May Debate Coach's mother develop cancer and die in his arms just as he's typing more of his useless shit. "

Obviously and a priori a case of "roorback."

Oh, wait, no, sorry, it's only an obvious and a priori case of roorback when it can be blamed on _Zionists_. Anti-zionists are all saints. My mistake. Sorry for being uppity.

@%<

Dammit, look, if you're going to call me out like that, obviously I don't GENUINELY wish ill on "Debate Coach" or any of you. This is a message board. Obviously it's easier to spew stuff like that here.

I will admit, however, that I do have a genuine dislike for the select members of this message board who seem on a MISSION to demonize every single aspect of israel and every single aspect of zionism; people who aren't looking for "health and happiness" for everyone, as the sf-indymedia volunteer suggests, but people who genuinely seem to be rooting for israel to be crushed, for the jewish israelis to die, and the arabs who seek such things to win.

There are people on these boards who do genuinely seem to be against israel's govt because they HONESTLY believe that if the govt withdrew from the west bank and gaza, peace would somehow come. I don't agree with that, I think israel needs to withdraw in a manner where GOOD palestinians receive control and the means to smack down the terrorist groups who may keep attacking israel regardless... but, see, at least that's a debatable issue. It's VALID, in my opinion, to suggest that the israeli govt are assholes (how many governemnts aren't assholes? Seriously?) and it's valid to have different opinions as to how to resolve the problems. Hear that? RESOLVE THE PROBLEMS.

MY problem is NOT with those type of people. People who want good for THE PEOPLE on both sides. For everyone.

Because, frankly, if people's hearts were in teh right place, and they had a difference of opinion with me in regard to what the israeli govt should do, and they make valid points, I CAN"T get angry at them for it.

HERE is my problem. There is a SOLID collection of people here, and people around the world, who are NOT interested in the above. Their goal isn't a solution. THey are NOT looking to improve the world. Their MISSION, which they are rabidly attached to, appears to be demonizing each and every aspect of zionism, demonizing everything imaginable about israel, HEAVILY EXAGGERATING the wrongs that do occur on the israel side, constantly reminding everyone of wrongs of the past, while INTENTIONALLY TWISTING REALITY to make it seem like the palestinians are ALL saints, like arafat should be commended, like islamic religious teachers who spew both israel-hating AND jew-hating filth should somehow be defended or apoligized for, etc. People who are on an anti-israel MISSION, have an AGENDA, and will do whatever they need to do to spread as much hate of israel as possible.

Those are the people I have a problem with.

I doubt I'll get any decent replies (except perhaps from gherig), becuase the people hellbent on the above agenda who are here seem way beyond the point of straightforward, honest dialog.

Dammit, look, if you're going to call me out like that, obviously I don't GENUINELY wish ill on "Debate Coach" or any of you. This is a message board. Obviously it's easier to spew stuff like that here.

I will admit, however, that I do have a genuine dislike for the select members of this message board who seem on a MISSION to demonize every single aspect of israel and every single aspect of zionism; people who aren't looking for "health and happiness" for everyone, as the sf-indymedia volunteer suggests, but people who genuinely seem to be rooting for israel to be crushed, for the jewish israelis to die, and the arabs who seek such things to win.

There are people on these boards who do genuinely seem to be against israel's govt because they HONESTLY believe that if the govt withdrew from the west bank and gaza, peace would somehow come. I don't agree with that, I think israel needs to withdraw in a manner where GOOD palestinians receive control and the means to smack down the terrorist groups who may keep attacking israel regardless... but, see, at least that's a debatable issue. It's VALID, in my opinion, to suggest that the israeli govt are assholes (how many governemnts aren't assholes? Seriously?) and it's valid to have different opinions as to how to resolve the problems. Hear that? RESOLVE THE PROBLEMS.

MY problem is NOT with those type of people. People who want good for THE PEOPLE on both sides. For everyone.

Because, frankly, if people's hearts were in teh right place, and they had a difference of opinion with me in regard to what the israeli govt should do, and they make valid points, I CAN"T get angry at them for it.

HERE is my problem. There is a SOLID collection of people here, and people around the world, who are NOT interested in the above. Their goal isn't a solution. THey are NOT looking to improve the world. Their MISSION, which they are rabidly attached to, appears to be demonizing each and every aspect of zionism, demonizing everything imaginable about israel, HEAVILY EXAGGERATING the wrongs that do occur on the israel side, constantly reminding everyone of wrongs of the past, while INTENTIONALLY TWISTING REALITY to make it seem like the palestinians are ALL saints, like arafat should be commended, like islamic religious teachers who spew both israel-hating AND jew-hating filth should somehow be defended or apoligized for, etc. People who are on an anti-israel MISSION, have an AGENDA, and will do whatever they need to do to spread as much hate of israel as possible.

Those are the people I have a problem with.

I doubt I'll get any decent replies (except perhaps from gherig), becuase the people hellbent on the above agenda who are here seem way beyond the point of straightforward, honest dialog.

P.S. It's funny that I'm called an "enemy" by the sf volunteers, I guess because I don't want israel to burn to the ground, and they do. After all, they're "peace activists," and these days that means siding with islamic fundamentalists who intentionally murder innocent people to prove how deserving they are of being given land control.

So, is it official policy of sf.indymedia.org that "zionists are your enemy?"

Can you do the world a favor and make this policy clear and print it on the front page of sf.indymedia.org? Print something like "It is official policy of sf.indymedia.org that we consider anyone who supports the political movement of jews having their own state to be our enemy."

That would be great, thanks.

> I don't GENUINELY wish ill on "Debate Coach" or any of you. This is a message board. Obviously it's easier to spew stuff like that here.

Excuse us if we are sensitive. People routinely wish us ill, in far worse language than your own, and that’s the least of our problems. People constantly threaten to kill us and/or trash our office. We take these threats seriously because they also threatened to run down protesters with their cars and then made good on the threat in a number of cities, sending a number of people to the hospital. They also spam and hack our site. I personally spend never less than an hour a day, sometimes three or four, just fighting them off.

So, yeah, we’re sensitive. But if you’re willing to abide by a truce, I am, too. Let’s have a rational discussion, devoid of ad hominems., threats and hyperbole.


>I will admit, however, that I do have a genuine dislike for the select members of this message board who seem on a MISSION to demonize every single aspect of israel and every single aspect of zionism;

I agree, Some anti-Zionists are scum. “Brian” for example is banned. I personally removed tow perfectly rational and polite posts of his just this hour, solely because they were his, and we don’t want to help people like him.



>people who aren't looking for "health and happiness" for everyone, as the sf-indymedia volunteer suggests, but people who genuinely seem to be rooting for israel to be crushed, for the jewish israelis to die, and the arabs who seek such things to win.

Zionists in general, and Israelis in particular are paranoid. They interpret every criticism of Israel as a desire that Jews die. This is irrational, and at odds with the facts. If I were an Israeli, or even a Jew, perhaps I would be paranoid, too. My people are Irish. We had our own Holocaust. And yes, sometimes it does cloud our own judgment. I myself am guilty of knee jerk reaction to the latest British atrocity, even though i know in my heart from direct personal experience that to average, work-a-day Brit in the street is a decent and honorable human being. I can only imagine what it must be like for Africans, Armenians, Koreans, or for that matter, Jews. Yeah, history weighs heavily on the heads of all survivors.

But let’s try to be rational. Not all anti-Zionists want Jews to die. To say they do is either a bald faced lie or a complete delusion. Let’s make a deal. You give me the benefit of the doubt and I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. I’ll assume you are deluded and not lying, and you assume that I am not an anti-Semite. Then we can have a rational discussion.


>it's valid to have different opinions as to how to resolve the problems. Hear that? RESOLVE THE PROBLEMS.


OK< let’s talk about that. First we must define those problems. It is not valid to define them strictly as “Terrorists attack Israel.” This begs the questions of whether Israel should be attacked in the first place.

I reject the a priory assumptions that the existence of the state of Israel is just, that it virtuous or even that it is good for Jews. If it is just and virtuous for the Zionist military to confiscate the property of Arabs and give it to Jews, then it was just and virtuous for the Nazi military to confiscate the property of Jews and give it to Aryans. I reject this notion. I also reject the notion the the existence of the state of Israel is good for Jews. Israel is far from the haven for Jews that it has been made out to be. It is, in fact, the only place on the planet where Jews are routinely murdered, solely because they are Jews. Israel is a death trap for Jews. It just hasn’t snapped shut yet. But if every Jew made aliyah, them three or four WMDs could wipe out the lot, and Hitler would laugh i his grave.



>HEAVILY EXAGGERATING the wrongs that do occur on the israel side, constantly reminding everyone of wrongs of the past,

It is no exaggeration. Neither is it wrong to focus on what’s wrong with Israel. The vast, overwhelming majority of the media completely ignore anything Israelis do wrong and paint all of their critics as villains. What goes on here is a counter balance to that.



>while INTENTIONALLY TWISTING REALITY to make it seem like the palestinians are ALL saints, like arafat should be commended, like islamic religious teachers who spew both israel-hating AND jew-hating filth should somehow be defended or apoligized for, etc.

I agree that not all Palestinians are righteous. Arafat is a corrupt petty thug. He should die, and his henchmen with him. The only real difference between he and Sharon is the size of their armies.

Hamas is a more complicated issue. I take strong exception to their support for the killing of civilians. But there is a lot more to Hamas than that. They also do totally admirable social work that can only be admired, and should be emulated. Also, we must never forget Israeli intelligence’s role in building up Hamas as a counterbalance to the PLO.

Opposition to Jewish fundamentalists should never be automatically interpeted as being support for Islamic fundamentalists. It is not always, even usually, the case.



>People who are on an anti-israel MISSION, have an AGENDA,

People who are on an anti-israel mission, have a number of agendas, some of which contradict. We’re not talking about a monolith, here. Some of these people hate each other, and for very good reason. Many are righteous people. Some are even Jews. others are Nazis. It is absurd to consider them a monolith, or to assume they have a single agenda.



>and will do whatever they need to do to spread as much hate of israel as possible.

Israel does quite enough on its own to make itself hated. People are known by how they treat their neighbors. Ask someone from Ireland, particularly someone older, and/or from the North, what they think of Brits, sometime. Brits are widely, and to an extent correctly, perceived as bullies and thieves, who shoot children down in the street for throwing stones. The resemblance to Zionists is notable. It’s pedigree is easily traced. It was from the Brits, for example, that Zionists learned to demolish the houses of those whose relatives resist occupation. The Brits themselves learned it by trial and error in Ireland. It’s hard not to hate people who steal from their neighbors and murder their children.

I get a lot of flak from anti-Zionists for drawing a distinction between those Israelis who commit the atrocities and those who oppose them. People say I’m “soft on Zionism,” just because I’m even willing to dialog with the likes of you. I am not soft on Zionism. I oppose Zionism whole heartedly, for the same reason I oppose Nazism. I against all racism. Self determination for ethnic groups is racist by definition. Whether they are Aryans or Jews is irrelevant. The only just and virtuous solution to the problems in the Land With Two Names is a secular, democratic society, in which who your mother was, doesn’t matter. This would also be good for the Jews who, live there. People would no longer have reason to blow up their busses or mow them down in the street, just because they are Jews.

Having read with horror a similar wish that my mother would get cancer and die and rot in hell not that long ago, and knowing as I read it that Mom had passed away, I can well assure you that printing such a horrid thing does not very pleasant reading In fact, I was weeping for hours afterwards as anyone who has lost a Mom or Dad will attest..

Debate Coach hardly deserves such utter rot being thrown his way, and I really feel an apology is warranted here.

if you can't say something without causing pain and grief to others, then I suggest you say nothing.

"if you can't say something without causing pain and grief to others, then I suggest you say nothing."

But what would that leave you to say, Angie? If you can't beat up on Israel and call people bloodthirsty child killers, will you say nothing?

I am talking about individuals on this board who are subjected to the hate that I have endured and anyone else who doesn't agree with the supporters of Israeli government and its tactics.

None of us as individuals deserve to be treated in this fashion, and Debate Coach is no exception.

I'm just totally surprised that you would be the first person to respond to this post of mine and in such a negative and deliberately misleading fashion.

You continue to surprise me more and more, LAD. Just when I think that you're a half decent human being, I have to go back to my original impression.

Much as I may disagree with you, however, I would never wish that you or anyone related to you would suffer the fate wished on my mother who never hurt a damn person in her life and would be horrified to know such hate existed.

In view of your comments here, LAD, I do not think I can correspond with you again.

Are you serious? You realize you spend your time here talking about the Arab-Israeli conflict, and you complain about the "hate" you have to "endure" here on this board? You should seriously go to the conflict zone and experience first hand what hate really is, and listen to what people wish upon each other there. Ask a five year old Israeli girl about seeing Arab children make the throat-slit gesture at her, every day on her way to school. Then come back and tell us what hate is.

Though if you really wept for hours at what somebody typed on a computer screen, you would be well advised to stay away from real hate and ill wishes.

Stay in front of your computer where you are safe.

Is your Mom still living?

If she is not, and if she had died a heartbreaking death, would you be so eager to defend someone who wished that she'd get cancer and die? I hardly think so, nor would any decent, caring human.

I'm just so disappointed in you. I simply can't believe how disappointed I am in you about this. I could have expected it from others here whose rambliings are so predictable and meaningless, but for some reason I thought underneath it all you were different.

Damnit, I hate it when I'm wrong!

>Israel steals land, murders and terrorizes innocent civilians, and then complains when it gets a dose of its own medicine.

The only thing either side has to look forward to is that their problems will never be solved on SF-IMC.

nessie has yet to comprehend the situation, much less be able to have a take on it worth consideration.

I've said this before, I'll say it again. But until everyone of you can grasp this simple concept, the rest of any discussion is moot. My guess is, that despite my advise, you will continue down the road to nowhere anyway. Here it is:

---The land belongs to whoever can conquer and defend it.---

Comprehend that, and you're half-way there. Argue against it, and stay put, I don't really care. Just look at what's going on regarding the Middle East when you get out from behind the computer and open a window. People who don't accept the above comment don't have a place at the table anyway, and rightfully so.

First, Angie, I didn't say anything about your mother. Second, you don't seem to comprehend how what you say here could possibly upset people in the same way you are upset. Or maybe you think they deserve it. I don't know. I only know that whatever vile things are said over the internet is meaningless compared to the real hate and suffering experienced by people who are actually involved first-hand in your pet cause.

If you are serious about getting involved in this issue, you better learn to deal with hate in a mature way. Don't let it get to you, or someday you may find yourself guilty of incitement or worse.

CHRISTIAN COMMITMENT TO PEACEMAKING IS DISTORTED BY CHRISTIAN ZIONISTS

Late June 2003
by Corinne Whitlatch, Executive Director of Churches for Middle East Peace

There are many sources for news and views about what’s going on in the Middle East and what’s ahead.

Some followers of Pat Robertson’s 700 Club are looking at weather patterns. The Christian Broadcasting Network reported that May’s damaging tornados were a repercussion of U.S. pressure on Israel that put the “covenant lands of Israel at risk.” According to CBN, a researcher has proven that “when Israeli settlements are touched, there are also occurrences of hurricanes, tornados, and major problems in the American economy.”

This forecast may seem foolish to most Americans and irrelevant to the serious business of crafting foreign policy. However, the Christian-evangelical community along with its Christian Zionist wing is a significant constituency for the Bush Administration and Republican-majority Congress. Joining with some hard-line Jewish groups, Christian Zionists have launched “The Committee for a One-State Solution” with an eight-state billboard campaign to stop the Road Map and its goal of a two- state resolution of the conflict. The locations for the billboards were selected (according to the chair of Americans for a Safe Israel) in states where the Republican presidential win was slim, in order to make President Bush aware “that a disaffected Christian Community can adversely affect” the coming presidential campaign.

It is crucial for all advocates of a political and diplomatic solution -- based on applying the rational elements of international law and negotiation -- to counter the message of the Christian Right. For those of us, including Churches for Middle East Peace, whose political activism is also grounded in a faith-based commitment to justice and peacemaking as Christians, there is an additional responsibility to say publicly that there is an alternate Christian perspective to that of Christian Zionists.

“THE BIBLE IS MY ROAD MAP”

This is the title of an internet petition circulated by Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and Tim LaHaye opposing the Road Map and a political solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Beginning with “Save the Settlements,” the text asserts that the “peace plan rewards terrorists,” talks about “tiny Israel giving its Bible land to terrorist regimes,” and “dividing Jerusalem and giving a portion of the city and our holy sites to an Islamic terrorist organization that has killed Americans.”

Unashamedly playing on internal Administration disputes, the petition asserts: “The State Department has been giving Israel’s land to the PLO for more than a decade.” Another example comes from television preacher Pat Robertson. In May, he asked his supporters to mount a nationwide protest against the State Department and demand the dismissal of William Burns, the Assistant Secretary of State for the Near East. Some State Department officials believe there is a campaign by conservatives to accuse the diplomatic corps of being disloyal to Bush.

SELLING THE ROAD MAP TO CONGRESS

Also seeking to discredit the State Department was House Majority Leader Tom DeLay. In his April 2 remarks at the gathering of Ralph Reed’s Stand for Israel, he said, “The moral ambiguities of our diplomatic elites notwithstanding, Israel is not the problem; Israel is the solution.”

The diplomatic problems of implementing the Road Map will be compounded for the President by domestic politics. The Christian conservatives, a core constituency for President Bush, are passionately pro-Israel and deeply distrustful of the European Union and the U.N. who are part of the “Quartet” sponsors of the Road Map. On Capitol Hill, the religious right has joined forces with the neoconservative wing of the Republican party and pro-Israel Democrats to form a broad coalition of lawmakers who don’t want Israel pressured to make concessions.

As Secretary of State Powell headed to the Middle East in May, Representative Mike Pence (R-IN), who sits on the House International Relations’s Middle East subcommittee, said “America is not a neutral party in the negotiations in the Middle East. We are not, nor do we aspire to be, an honest broker. America stands with Israel.”

According to CQ Weekly, a reputable Capitol Hill publication, one of AIPAC’s (American-Israel Public Affairs Committee) legislative priorities is Congress’ “codification” of the major changes that Israel seeks in the Road Map. Such legislation could be in the form of a non-binding resolution or attached to an appropriations bill that would restrict the Administration’s ability to fund peace-related initiatives.

WHAT’S IN A NAME?

News reports often use the political term “Christian Right,” “Christian fundamentalists” or refer generally to “conservative Christians” or “Evangelicals.” Yet, not all who fall within those groupings hold to biblically-mandated support for Israel.

The term “Christian Zionist” is probably most accurate, even though “Zionism” itself is a concept that emerged in the late 19th century among Jewish intellectuals out of the ferment of nationalist, socialist and utopian ideas that swept through Europe at the time. The Zionist movement sought and achieved the founding and development of a Jewish homeland (now Israel) in Palestine, then a part of the Ottoman Empire. Now, many Zionists, both Israeli and American-Jewish, support ending Israel’s occupation and establishing a Palestinian state. Not so with Christian Zionists. Central to Christian Zionism is the belief in the abiding relevance of the promise God made to Abraham in Genesis 12:3, “I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”

Some of the organizations associated with Christian Zionism are: the Christian Coalition of America, the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews, National Unity Coalition for Israel, Christian Broadcasting Network, Christians for Israel-U.S., Gary Bauer’s American Values and The International Christian Embassy in Jerusalem.

EVANGELICALS WHO DO SUPPORT PEACE

Christian Zionists may identify themselves as evangelical Christians, but not all evangelical Christians agree with their uncritical support of Israel. In July of 2002, nearly 60 prominent evangelical theologians and heads of organizations wrote to the President, voicing an even-handed policy towards Israelis and Palestinians that affirms two states, “free, economically viable and secure.” They asked that the President vigorously “oppose injustice, including the continued unlawful and degrading Israeli settlement movement,” which they characterized as “the theft of Palestinian land.”

Regarding theology, they wrote, “Significant numbers of American evangelicals reject the way some have distorted biblical passages as their rationale for uncritical support for every policy and action of the Israeli government instead of judging all actions – of both Israelis and Palestinians – on the basis of biblical standards of justice. The great Hebrew prophets, Isaiah and Jeremiah, declared in the Old Testament that “God calls all nations and all people to do justice one to another, and to protect the oppressed, the alien, the fatherless and the widow.”

IGNORING PALESTINIAN CHRISTIANS

U.S. Christians travel to the Holy Land as pilgrims and are a major segment of the tourism industry. They visit the holy sites but most have virtually no contact with Arab Christians themselves. Arab Christians hold strongly negative views of Christian Zionism, which is considered by some to be an instrument of Western colonialism and American imperialism. The zealous support given Israel’s claim of sovereignty over all of Jerusalem and the building of settlements in “Judea and Samaria” by these Western Christians angers both Christian and Muslim Palestinians. Some evangelical churches have supportive relationships with settlements.

Among Palestinians, there are the traditional churches – Greek Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox and Roman Catholic – and the so-called “reform” churches established in the 19th century – Lutherans and Episcopalians or Anglicans. They work ecumenically through the Middle East Council of Churches. These Christians consider themselves, and are considered by the Muslims, to be an integral part of the Palestinian community, even though they are a minority of less than 2%.

From his Jerusalem office, Bishop Munib Younan, of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, has written that “Christian Zionism is the enemy of peace in the Middle East.” The Rev. Naim Ateek, director of Jerusalem’s Sabeel Ecumenical Liberation Theological Center, has called pre-millenialism a “heresy” and Christian Zionism a “menace.”

THEOLOGY, POPULAR FICTION AND THE CHURCH IN SOCIETY

When the Washington Post commits a full page of its Sunday opinion section to a religious topic, it clearly has political significance. On February 2, the headline was “It’s the Dawning of the Age of Apocalypse.” American Studies professor Melani McAlister wrote about the very popular “Left Behind” fictional series – the last four have topped the best-seller lists. She writes of the “stark political spirituality at the heart of the stories, which can fairly be described as Christian Jihadist. It is the obligation of the ‘Left Behind’ Christians both to evangelize as many potential converts as possible and to join in battle on behalf of Israel against the armies of the Antichrist.”

The term “Left Behind,” along with “the rapture”, “pre-millennialism”, “end-times” and “Armageddon” are parts of the terminology associated with this strain of eschatology – which is the study of the “last things,” the culmination of history and the second coming of Jesus Christ.

It is the political implications of these beliefs that troubles Churches for Middle East Peace. McAlister writes that “Left Behind” authors Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins undercut the very notion of Middle East peace, from Israel to Iraq. With the Antichrist posing as a peacemaker and campaigning for world disarmament, such things as arms control or peace processes are fig leaves for those planning world domination. That Israel is the epicenter of Armageddon, the final battle, is made clear to the “Left Behind” readers.

With a theology that calls us to be peacemakers, the approach of Churches for Middle East Peace is grounded in the National Council of Churches policy statement that was approved in 1980. This “calls upon U.S.A. Christians to recognize the moral dimensions of political action, to give witness to God’s justice, love and mercy, to build peace upon the foundation of justice.”

The deep religious significance and spiritual value of the Middle East is affirmed for Jews and Muslims as well as for Christians. “Affirming the need for mutual respect and understanding, it [the NCC statement] acknowledges the reality of strife; it seeks to identify the sources of mistrust and prejudice and to lay the basis for reconciliation.”

Catholic biblical scholar, Ronald Witherup, SS, in an article titled “Whose Land Is It?” wrote that: “We should acknowledge the perennial value of the Bible’s teachings without asserting that the Bible applies directly to every moral situation in our own world. This approach is both thoroughly Catholic and consistent with many other interpretive traditions, Protestant and Jewish…..We must begin with reality as it now exists. The situation ‘on the ground’ is what we must now confront. There is no going back to an idyllic, pre-modern vision.”

And it was the situation on the ground that compelled the statement of a delegation of U.S. Church leaders who visited Jerusalem, Jenin, Bethlehem and Beit Jala in May of 2002. “The word of the Spirit in our day is a call to all people of faith to be witnesses to the way of peace. That witness begins with unceasing prayer. It calls us to be reconcilers, to stand for truth, forgiveness, and justice in every place. Only thus may we sing to the Lord a new song.”

URGENT ACTION:

“We believe that with hard work and good faith and courage, it is possible to bring peace to the Middle East…The Holy Land must be shared between the state of Palestine and the state of Israel, living at peace with each other and with every nation of the Middle East.” President George W. Bush, June 4, 2003

If the President stands by his words, if the Congress lends its support, and if Israeli-Palestinian leaders can end the cycle of violence, the hopes and prayers for Middle East peace could be realized. The Road Map for a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian peace may be the focus for some time – with debates over the precise meaning of requirements and timing; with Congressional initiatives to block or support its implementation; with efforts to diminish or enhance the role of the Quartet; with despair or hope that the two-state vision might prevail. One key question is: Will the President press Prime Minister Sharon on the Road Map’s phase-one requirement that the government of Israel freeze all settlement activity and dismantle those erected since March 2001?

The advocacy guidance for Churches for Middle East Peace is customarily drawn from the policy statements of its members -- faith-based tenets of witnessing for peace and the call to be reconcilers – without broadcasting our personal or institutional identity as Christian. Now, relative to Israeli-Palestinian peacemaking, the identity of “Christian” must be reclaimed by the vast numbers of Christians who do not believe in the tenets of Christian-Zionism. The linkage between Christianity and peace must be strengthened in the mind of policymakers.

CONGRESS: Contact your Representative and two Senators by phone, fax, email or letter. The Capitol switchboard, (202) 224-3121 will connect you with any Congressional office. For information on members of Congress and to send comments to your members’ Web-sites go to http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov. Encourage advocacy by your friends, family and members of your congregations.

- Identify yourself as a Christian supporter of Israeli-Palestinian peacemaking.
- Urge Congressional support of the President and Secretary of State in implementing the Road Map and a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
- Add to your message the related topic that is current: like urging support for the President putting pressure on P.M. Sharon to dismantle settlement outposts; or urging support for the Road Map’s call for international monitors.
-
ADMINISTRATION: Call the White House Comments line (202) 456-1111 to thank the President for pressing both Israelis and Palestinians to work for peace and an end of the occupation.

CAMPAIGNS: Contact Democratic Presidential campaign offices in your state and ask them to show support for Israeli-Palestinian peacemaking, and call for an end of the occupation.

Too bad 'laugh at the dying' and too many others 'believe' false 'truths'!

When it really comes down to the hate training of children, there is more than sufficient documentation and evidence to prove the contrary.

Psychological Study of the Mentality of Jewish Children
Tayseer Jaber • Al-Majalla
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=0§ion=9&article=27148&d=8&m=6&y=2003

Extracts from the above article:
A letter from a Jewish child to a Palestinian child, said, “I hope you and your family will burn in hell.” These ugly expressions and desires come from an Israeli child who took part in a research study. The study was conducted by an Israeli researcher and translated into Arabic. The study was presented to a teaching committee at the London School of Economics (LSE). The researcher is a former soldier and a member of the anti-terrorist unit in the Israeli army. He studied psychology at the LSE.
The study involved more than eighty Israeli children and it indicates that the current generation is passing a Zionist legacy to the next generation. Zionism is being passed to the younger generation — even more than knowledge of the Torah. The parents of this generation know how to plant hate and anger toward Arabs in children’s minds to such an extent that children are happy to hear of the death of Palestinian child or to hear news of a Palestinian official’s being assassinated.
...
The researcher asked each child to write a letter to a Palestinian. He also asked them to draw a picture of a Palestinian child. The results were amazing because of the quantity of hate these children under the age of eight manifest. There is a mixture of fear and anger in these children. To begin with, the children asked two questions. The first was whether to write the letter to a good or bad Palestinian and the second was if they could curse in the letter.
...
The researcher said that all Israeli children believe that Arabs are bad and Israelis are good, that Jews want peace and Arabs want war and that Jews are human and Arabs are not. The researcher assures us that such feelings are increasing in these children. The researcher wants to find why Jewish children bear so much hate for Arabs. He asked an Arab child to write a letter to an Israeli child. The researcher said, “The letter came as a shock to me.” The Arab girl wrote, “To the Israeli child that I saw at the Pyramids in Egypt. My father refused to allow me to talk to you. I told him I wanted you to be my friend so I could ask you why Israelis are killing Palestinians.” Now, let us look at the difference of vision between Israeli and Palestinian children.
End of extracts***

It would seem... that some of those posting here went to the same schools...

But theres more:

Israeli Textbooks and Children’s Literature Promote Racism and Hatred Toward Palestinians and Arabs
By Maureen Meehan
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0999/9909019.html

Professor Daniel Bar-Tal of Tel Aviv University studied 124 elementary, middle- and high school textbooks on grammar and Hebrew literature, history, geography and citizenship. Bar-Tal concluded that Israeli textbooks present the view that Jews are involved in a justified, even humanitarian, war against an Arab enemy that refuses to accept and acknowledge the existence and rights of Jews in Israel.

What Professor Daniel Bar-Tal found is more than enlightening...

Israeli school textbooks as well as children’s storybooks, according to recent academic studies and surveys, portray Palestinians and Arabs as “murderers,” “rioters,” “suspicious,” and generally backward and unproductive. Direct delegitimization and negative stereotyping of Palestinians and Arabs are the rule rather than the exception in Israeli schoolbooks.

While accusatory fingers have been pointed at the Palestinians... there exists very little actual truth in the matter, due to the simple fact that Israel has provided the majority of the Arabic language textbooks used in the occupied territories.

Now... tell me, just who is poisoning the minds of the impressionable?

Are you warning me or threatening me, or both?

THE ZIONISTS ARE GRABBING FOR STRAWS.

"THE LAND BELONGS TO JEWS" DID NOT PASS THE TEST OF WATER
SO THEY'VE COME UP WITH A NEW AND DIFFERENT SLOGAN:
"THE LAND BELONGS TO WHOEVER CONQUERS & DEFEND IT".


IF THE LAND INDEED BELONGS TO WHOEVER CAN DEFEND IT, THEN DO SO ON YOUR OWN DIME!

arabnres.com: "The researcher said that all Israeli children believe that Arabs are bad and Israelis are good, that Jews want peace and Arabs want war and that Jews are human and Arabs are not. "

!: "Now... tell me, just who is poisoning the minds of the impressionable?"

Well, if you can swallow whole without blinking sentences like the one I quoted, the answer to your question is pretty obviously "arabnews.com."

@%<

Quos Deus vult perdere,prius dementat. Those whom God would destroy, he first makes mad.

After extensive web-searching using various search criteria... not only was the actual author of the study in question, found and named below, but relative 'documents' as well. So much for the whole story...

... it would seem that while many of those living in America may 'remember' the World Net Daily's article, this, according to the author, is also a mis-representation of the original study.

The authors comments and 'disappointment' in the 're-reporting' of the 'Ma'ariv's weekend' article as well as the Original Thesis follow:

Asi Sharabi's rebutal to both the Arab News and World Net Daily's articles were 'found' web-cached here:
http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:SluCSUY9QmYJ:http://www.jewishtimes.com/News/3096.stm+%22London+School+of+Economics%22+%2Bisrael+%2Bpsychology+%2B%22Israeli+children%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Arab media twists Israeli's work
Richard Allen Greene JUNE 23, 2003 London

Asi Sharabi may be getting used to his work causing controversy, but he doesn't particularly like it.

As a doctoral student in social psychology at the London School of Economics, Mr. Sharabi has chosen a very sensitive area for his research: Israeli Jewish children's perceptions of conflict.

His master's thesis caused a stir in Israel in 2001 when it revealed the depth of hostility many Israeli children felt toward the Palestinians.

Now, two years later, it is back in the news -- this time because two Arab publications have excerpted it to "prove" that Israeli parents "know how to plant hate and anger toward Arabs in children's minds."

Mr. Sharabi "said that all Israeli children believe that Arabs are bad and Israelis are good, that Jews want peace and Arabs want war, and that Jews are human and Arabs are not," according to the article's author, Tayseer Jabber.

The magazine Al-Majalla first published Mr. Jabber's article in Arabic. Early in June, the Saudi newspaper Arab News translated the piece into English.

Mr. Sharabi describes the piece as "very poor journalism." He says Mr. Jabber never contacted him, instead basing his article on a lengthy piece that appeared in the Israeli daily Ma'ariv's weekend magazine nearly two years ago.

He denies ever making the comment about all Israeli children believing Arabs are bad and Jews are good.

And, Mr. Sharabi says, one incident Mr. Jabber describes in his article -- in which an Arab girl writes a sympathetic letter to an Israeli child -- is "fiction, not journalism."

"Show me your evidence of these quotes, or of this conversation," he challenged Mr. Jabber in a letter to Arab News.

"It pisses me off, of course. Somebody wrote something under my name without asking me," he told JTA.

Arab News did not respond to JTA e-mails requesting comment.

A day after Arab News printed Mr. Sharabi's letter, the publication World Net Daily ran an article about the controversy, arguing that the Saudi paper had "fabricated a report of Jews teaching hatred." That article said that studies had found it was Palestinians, not Jews, who were teaching their children to hate the other side.

But Mr. Sharabi is no happier with the World Net Daily article. "Both journalists took my research and used it as a tool for their own agenda," he told JTA. "I'm not on this side, I'm not on that side."

In fact, he says, many of the most provocative quotes from Israeli children in the Jabber article are accurate.
Mr. Sharabi asked 84 Israeli Jewish children from a range of environments --city, settlement and kibbutz -- to write letters to Palestinians and to draw pictures of them.

He worked with 8- and 9-year-old children immediately after a June 2001 suicide bombing at the Dolphinarium disco in Tel Aviv that killed 21 teenagers. "The findings are disturbing," he said. "For many people, the Ma'ariv article came as a shock. Nobody likes to see his face in the mirror."

Some of the children did indeed say they hoped Palestinians would die or that they would "blow them up, all of them, because they throw stones and set bombs and kill us," as the Jabber article claimed. The Jabber article included about a dozen quotes along the same lines.

Mr. Jabber failed to mention, however, that the children expressed a range of opinions. For example, one child said "I would go to Arafat's home and talk with him politely," and "I would ask him to make peace."

That Mr. Jabber misrepresented Mr. Sharabi's work is perhaps ironic, since Mr. Sharabi is most interested in how each side in a conflict can learn to see the other's point of view.

"I felt insulted because my whole project is coming out of peace-oriented research," he told JTA. "I'm trying to make a difference."
~~~~~~~~~~~

Article about 2/3 down the page...
http://israelbehindthenews.com/Archives/Aug-30-01.htm
Use of Children During the Intifada
Boaz Ganor
Special Feature, Maariv

In May this year, a few weeks before the terror attack at the Dolphinarium, Assi Sharabi, a student of social psychology at the London School of Economics arrived in Israel with a great idea for a thesis.

The last year of Sharabi's life was one of political upheavals that he viewed in shock through the BBC. (In August 2000 the prime minister, Ehud Barak, spoke of an "end to the conflict," in August 2001, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon speaks of a "policy of assassinations," etc.)
Sharabi, a former officer in the counter-terrorism unit, did his army service, as he puts it, "with a knife between his teeth," teaching combat units to "make surgical operations." [. . .] A year after arriving in London, Sharabi removed his Zionist fighter's glasses, and replaced them with those of a European intellectual. What he found alarmed, angered and shook him.
To understand Sharabi's research, and his disturbing findings, we have to first understand the theoretical basis of his work. This is something known as "social tokens."
The idea is simple: Our social reality, the theory goes, is a function of our social activity. Every society creates for itself a system of values that allows it to comprehend the reality around it, no matter how crazy this reality is.
Take a prison, for example, a place that is illogical in terms of free people, where the most important commodity (if we are to believe American gangster movies) is cigarettes. The cigarette takes the place of money, of which there is none, and gives rise to a value system where people are judged more or less according to their access to cigarettes. The cigarettes are the "social token." They enable the prisoner to get by, to remain sane.
That is the idea Sharabi brought to Israel. His goal: to find out how Jewish children in Israel aged eight and nine years old, in three types of communities (city, kibbutz, settlement) grasp the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and how they survive it on a daily basis.
Sharabi, in other words, went to see what kind of cigarettes our children deal in to survive the psychological prison of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
"The Israeli reality," Sharabi says, "is a tough one. I don't think anyone will disagree with that. How can a mother send her child on a bus thinking there is a chance they may blow up? When you live here, you know that something is wrong, but you live in this wrong way and you make sense of it by the social tokens you give your surroundings, until it appears logical to you. You lose your best friend in Lebanon and it makes sense - 'yes, people lose their friends in war.' That is what I studied.
"I went to Israeli children to see how they grow up completely normal in the eyes of their surroundings, which I see as abnormal. I wanted to see how they feel, how they explain, how they experience the reality of the conflict."
Sharabi spoke to 84 children a few days after the Dolphinarium terror attack. He submitted his findings last week to the University in London. His conclusions, simply put, are this: the social token that enables Israeli children to exist in the harsh reality around them is burning, blazing, sometimes monstrous hatred of the Palestinians. Children see eight-year-old Arab children as deformed, with sharp bristles and teeth, who should hopefully die of AIDs and who are sentenced to burn in the fires of hell to the very last man.
On the other hand, all the children want peace. This peace (to quote Sharabi) is a "hollow peace." For the children, the fact that there should be peace does not mean that shouldn't kill them, down to the last man. [. . .]
"Wherever I went, the kibbutz, the city and the settlement, I explained to the children that I'd come from London to ask them about the fighting with the Arabs, and asked them to write to a Palestinian their own age, and after that, on the other side of the paper, to draw him or her. The children immediately asked two questions. The first question was: 'draw a good Arab or a bad Arab?'"
Question: And the second question?
"If they could use curse words."
In contrast to what one might expect, the most hate-filled letters were not from the settlement children (a secular settlement not far from Rosh Haayin) but from the city (in central Israel). The settlement children were angry and used stereotypes. The city children genuinely hated. For them, at the young age of eight, a good Arab was a dead Arab.
Following are a few examples:
"Shalom," an Israeli girl wrote, "I hope you die and are sick. I'm waiting for you to die, I hope your whole family dies."
"Stinking Arab, shalom," wrote another girl. "I really really really don't like what you're doing to us and we will pay you back even if there is a cease-fire. I hope you die!"
"Shalom girl from a bad people," wrote another. "I want to ask you to tell your father that he should stop the bombs and then there will be peace. I also hope you die and that you get old quickly."
"Disgusting Mohammed," wrote a boy who drew an 8-year-old Palestinian with a beard and sharp teeth. "I wish you'd die and that you don't have a good life. I don't like you and I hate you because of all the attacks you do to us and I hope you burn. Sincerely."
"Ugly Yasser shalom," wrote a boy. "If you think you'll win, you're making a big mistake. Here's my advice: take an ugly knife and stick it in yourself and in your ugly mother and father and sister and blow yourself up with a grenade."
Another girl: "I hope you die and are sick. I am waiting for you to die and for your whole family to die."
Settlement children also wrote pointed letters, blind with rage. They wrote, as did the city and kibbutz children, what they picked up that week from their nearby environment: parents, teachers, the media. Settlement children, unlike city children, explained their blazing hatred in political terms, and some, unlike city children, expressed a sincere wish for a solution.
"There are no flowers here, only Intifada," one writes. "You really really really love wars, that means you hate your brothers. After all, we are all human beings, and you are not important to me. Barbarians, fools, retards, we will blow you up until you have no strength left, you like the terror attacks you make on us, you like our dead. Okay, no problem. We'll bomb you and you asked for it because we offered you a lot. So please, eat what you cooked."
"Palestinian boy," wrote another boy. "Why do you have to throw stones and make explosions if we can solve this without violence. When you throw stones you just look like retards and dopes, especially Arafat."
"I know," a sensitive boy wrote, "that it's hard to live without a state. The people who are closest to you could die, like your father, or your mother, or your brother or sister and you too could also die. I don't like it that your people fights my people and that we fight you and I want there to be peace."
Another boy: "The thing I hate most is you, Arabs, the men, the women, the children, each and every one, I hate all of you. You'll see, we'll beat you, we'll bomb you and kill you."
"Stinky Mohammed!!!," wrote his friend, "I hope you die by an Israeli who shoots you and that your whole family burns in hell (and you too). I hope you have AIDS and die. Live to 21 and then die. I hope all Arabs die, signed, someone who hates Arabs!!!"
Again and again the children's letters express their inability to comprehend the violent reality in which they live. [. . .] The ones filled with hate make you bite your lips in embarrassment. The ones filled with despair cause you to tear your hair.
"This is how I start my letter," a kibbutz girl wrote. "Why? Why? Why? Tell me, why? Why? Why can't you write to your government a letter and say things about peace. Why do they send you, the children, to war? That not how it's like with us, I feel sorry for you, the children, I see you selling band-aids in the streets and I want to know if they make you do that, but really -- why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why?"
Another kibbutz girl: "I see what is going on, how we fight each other with violence and every time decide to try without violence, and then with violence, I think it's time to make a break."
Like children in the city and the settlement, some of the kibbutz children drew the Palestinian child throwing stones, as violent, wearing a keffiya. The contents, however, were more moderate.
One girl: "I hope you have a good life, without violence and without war. I hope this comes true."
Another: "We want peace and maybe you do too, at least I want peace, because people die. So maybe you will at least agree to make peace."
Sharabi: "However pessimistic my study is, and it is definitely pessimistic, there were also buds of something else, and that was among the kibbutz children. None of these children said they liked Arafat, not at all. But there was some approximation of understanding that there are different ways to understand the reality of the conflict and it was amazing to see the independent way they rose to the challenge to decipher the dramatic, sometimes horrific, articles they saw in the papers or what they heard from around them."
"Only in the kibbutz did I find an eight and a half boy who told me: 'You know, there are prejudices in Israel too and we think that all the Arabs want to kill us and that every Arab is a terrorist, but that's not true.' There is less hate and less fear there."
Sharabi: "All the children, wherever they lived, have become equal partners in the discourse that says that the Jews are good and the Arabs bad, that Jews want peace and Arabs want war, that the Jews are human beings and the Arabs not. Even before the children understand the factual aspect of the conflict, they are immersed in the ideological contents of the conflict, the 'us against them,' the 'we are the victims and they are the aggressor.'
"The difference between city children, who had very specific and clear wishes for death, and settler children, I explain by the fact that the settler children have some interaction with Arab population, even if they don't like them too much. They see the Arab, on their way to school, on the way home, and so are aware that the Arabs are people. In the city there is true dehumanization of the Arab, because there is no interaction with them."
One of the topics Sharabi addressed in his study was the seeming contradiction between the fact that all the children said they wanted peace, but still the overwhelming majority wanted to bomb the Arabs. [. . .]
Sharabi: "There is a yearning for peace. Let it not be understood that these children, or their parents, don't want peace. But in psychological terms, it's very easy to see this yearning for peace as some sort of tranquilizer pill, some sort of theoretical light at the end of the tunnel that helps them have a positive perception of themselves -- 'see, I want peace, that means I'm a moral person.' But as I see it, this is meaningless. When you ask these children what 'peace' is, they don't know what to say.
"One child told me: 'Peace is when we leave and they stay, or when they leave and we stay.' If that's the case, the yearning for peace is offset by the inability to see the Arabs as anything except as people who don't want us here."
This article ran on August 24, 2001 in Maariv
~~~~~~~~~~~

Assi Sharabi's Original Thesis is here:
http://12thman.us/media/LSE_ArabNews_OriginalThesis.doc

You know, once again, you take a source that refutes you, and you post it as it if supports you. Here's the part where your own source shoots you down:

--- begin quote

He denies ever making the comment about all Israeli children believing Arabs are bad and Jews are good. [...] "Show me your evidence of these quotes, or of this conversation," he challenged Mr. Jabber in a letter to Arab News. "It pisses me off, of course. Somebody wrote something under my name without asking me," he told JTA.

--- end quote

Well, what do you know about that. Looks like I was right about arabnews.com; they were indeed poisoning the minds of the impressionable -- although in this case, it was the impressionable anti-Zionist crusader.

Your argument blown up by your own source. Again.

I think the word you're looking for, "!", is "ooooops." Again.

@%<

IF ALL LAND BELONGS TO WHOMEVER CAN CONQUER AND DEFEND IT THEN WHAT DID HITLER DO WRONG OTHER THAN LOSING?

Funny how you totally skip/ignore his remarks about the World Net Daily.

Are you accusing me of an agenda?

My research in finding the 'original thesis' did not have anything with supporting an 'agenda' but was purely an effort to provide the 'facts'.

Instead of noting this... you chose to parse.

As you've obviously read the World Net Daily's article (as I had the advantage of reading the Daniel Bar-Tal report prior to reading the WND story, the WND version was, itself immediately suspect), why don't you read the original thesis?

...or doesn't it fit your agenda?

As you don't know me, it is kind of childish on your part to attempt to 'judge' or find a 'purpose' in my postings, which may appear as: very critical, neutral, balanced, a correction of dis/mis-information, or a 'view' of both sides of the same argument.

"ACCORDING TO '.'
by !/ X Monday July 28, 2003 at 02:10 PM
THE ZIONISTS ARE GRABBING FOR STRAWS.
"THE LAND BELONGS TO JEWS" DID NOT PASS THE TEST OF WATER
SO THEY'VE COME UP WITH A NEW AND DIFFERENT SLOGAN:
"THE LAND BELONGS TO WHOEVER CONQUERS & DEFEND IT".
IF THE LAND INDEED BELONGS TO WHOEVER CAN DEFEND IT, THEN DO SO ON YOUR OWN DIME!"

First of all, I'm not a Zionist.

The land belongs to whoever can conquer and defend it.

Even a history buff knows this to be true. To deny it is to deny the history of mankind itself.

Where Israel or the Palestine gets the money to wage their battles is another matter. You may not like the US supporting Israel, but that's your problem. Nobody asked you. There's a reason for that. Your opinion is not worth consideration.

"IF ALL LAND BELONGS TO WHOMEVER CAN CONQUER AND DEFEND IT THEN WHAT DID HITLER DO WRONG OTHER THAN LOSING?"

Don't draw conclusions I never intended. I didn't say that the conqueror was always a stand up guy or kingdom. I just said the land belongs to whoever can conquer and defend it. There's no guarantee that the conquering kingdom or people will "do the right thing".

Once again, should you grasp that, you're half-way home. You argue against it, don't be surprised if you continue to be frustrated by the situation. Your choice.

ACCORING TO ".":
"THE LAND BELONGS TO WHOEVER CAN CONQUER & LATER DEFEND IT ( WITH YOUR TAX DOLLARS)".

IF NO ONE IS TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR GRABBING A FOREIGN LAND, THAN WHY WAS GERMANY HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WANTING TO CONQUER EUROPE.
WHY IS SADAAM HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR ATTEMPTING TO CONQUER IRAN IN THE 80'S AND WHY AREN'T ZIONISTS HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR CONTINUALLY INVADING THE NATIVES?

IS IT SINCE THEY SAY "A LAND BELONGS TO WHOMEVER CONQUERS AND LATER DEFENDS IT?"

See, the problem is that these anti-israel nutcases act like establishing a country with settling, immigration, building an army and gaining recognition as a country by the majority of the world, which is exactly what israel did, is somehow wrong. NEWSFLASH: 90% of countries on earth exist beacuse they were able to use military force to defend themselves, or they used military force to take over someone else, or someone else used military force to defend them.

If you want to break israel up, and you are going to APPLY THE SAME STANDARDS elsewhere, you should be rallying for australia, america, pakistan and about 75% of countries on this planet to be broken up and "redone" too. Going to do that? OR just obsess on the jewish state which is the mere size of rhode island?

If you are against jews having control of one strip of land, you SHOULD also be against muslims having 20-something muslim states. Are you going to rally for saudia arabia, iran, etc. to be broken up? Or are you just going to single israel out?

If you are against capitalism, you're against most of the world. Why single the 7 million jews of israel out? There are 6 BILLIOn other people who deserve your oh-so-important attention, too.

If you so easily excuse Israels violence during and after the creation of its borderless nation, why do you condemn the natives for Fighting for their independence from a hypocritical foreign nation/_;

...establishing a country with settling, immigration, building an army and gaining recognition as a country by the majority of the world...
was achieved through denying all of the above to the Native Population and by force no less!

"ARE ZIONISTS ABOVE THE LAW
by THE GENEVA CONVENTION? Monday July 28, 2003 at 05:30 PM
ACCORING TO ".":
"THE LAND BELONGS TO WHOEVER CAN CONQUER & LATER DEFEND IT ( WITH YOUR TAX DOLLARS)".

How it happens (tax dollars) has noting to do with it. It's a moot point.

IF NO ONE IS TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR GRABBING A FOREIGN LAND, THAN WHY WAS GERMANY HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WANTING TO CONQUER EUROPE.
WHY IS SADAAM HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR ATTEMPTING TO CONQUER IRAN IN THE 80'S AND WHY AREN'T ZIONISTS HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR CONTINUALLY INVADING THE NATIVES?

Didn't say "not held accountable". Don't put words in my mouth. It's rude. It's dishonest. It's in bad form. Shame on you.

IS IT SINCE THEY SAY "A LAND BELONGS TO WHOMEVER CONQUERS AND LATER DEFENDS IT?"

The land belongs to whoever can conquer and defend it. That's pretty self-explanitory. But for your sake:

If people "A" conquer and defend the land, it is theirs. If people "B" come in and conquer it from people "A", and defend it, it is theirs. If people "A" come back, or let's say people "C" come along, and take it away from people "B", it is theirs.

Get it?

SO WHY ARE THE NAZIS SCAPEGOATED FOR DOING WHAT YOU CLAIM IS THE WAY IT IS USUALLY DONE?

FURTHERMORE, WHY ARE THE PALESTINIANS HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE ACTIONS OF THE NAZIS?

>SO WHY ARE THE NAZIS SCAPEGOATED FOR DOING WHAT YOU CLAIM IS THE WAY IT IS USUALLY DONE?

For the same reason a lot of conquering armies throughout history are scapegoated for doing what they did. Doesn't take away from the fact that the land belongs to whoever can conquer and defend it.

>FURTHERMORE, WHY ARE THE PALESTINIANS HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE ACTIONS OF THE NAZIS?

Not saying there aren't people out there like this, but I am not aware of any group who hold the Palestinians accountable for what the Nazis did. Then again, if one were to look hard enough, you could probably find a group who holds the Azetecs accountable for what Napoleon did.

Your questions are rather silly. If you're going to ask, at least make them worth while.

Zionism is compeletely DONE.

They assume that their argument of
"that everyone does it" and "that is how it is done" will let them of the hook.

NOT!

Next, they'll excuse their Zionist Rapists by claiming that sex is the natural inclination of every men in uniform (and that is how it was historically done).

NO WAY<>

People of Earth are being divided on the basis of religion. Insignficant differences between people are increased by the dividing wall of organized religion. As long as the religious leaders of Christianity, Judaism and Islam continue their selected "holy wars" the people will be divided and conquered..

None of the above religions is based on any factual reasoning, the delusional nature of organized religion perpetuates the cyclical myths. If you really want peace, try moving away from these religions and look to the common ground on which ALL PEOPLE stand..

This debate between the above three patriarchal monotheistic religions currently wastes resources and encourages mindless conflict..

Capitalism is a part of this process, people kept divided by religion cannot organize and stand together. All Homo sapiens (and other biological organisms) are in need of food and water, yet the conflict perpetuated by religious leaders denies the People of Earth..

Again, organized religion is still the opiate and cyanide of the people..

>Zionism is compeletely DONE.

By that, I'll guess you also mean the State of Israel. there's no guarantee that anything will last forever, but I don't see Israel going away anytime soon.

It is fun to see you humoring yourself by imagining that there will ever be serious popular support for a few crazed left wing loonies and anarchists who imagine themselves as having any viable solutions for anything.

I'll repeat:

"You may not like the US supporting Israel, but that's your problem. Nobody asked you. There's a reason for that. Your opinion is not worth consideration."

You can't seem to comprehend much of anything.

Just stamp those little jackboots and throw a fit, Naziboy.

@%<

you thought that the "star of david" was a zionist symbol, thing again...
http://www.rosicrucian.org/local/regions/regionalevents/2003tmo_newyork/index.html

...Nobody asked you. There's a reason for that. Your opinion is not worth consideration....

the quote above is from "."- a supporter of Israel who essentially says to you americans that you better "hand over your hard earned money and shut the $$$$$ up since your opinion is not worth considering.

Do zionists only honor democractic ideals when you show them the money and don't have a say about it later on?

What does this mean?
by Angie Monday July 28, 2003 at 01:54 PM

Are you warning me or threatening me, or both?
----

You can't be serious. I am in no position to threaten anyone, nor would I. I just see in you what I have seen in other tragic cases. Maybe you really think you are fighting for peace. I hear people say "No peace without justice." The truth is just the opposite. There is no justice without peace. Many people in this conflict are guilty of many things and will never be punished. Many innocent people are suddenly and tragically wiped out. That is the nature of war, and nobody should get involved without first understanding that. Which is why it boggles my mind to hear someone say take it up with the IDF, or they will get what they deserve, or we will never accept disarmament, we would rather kill and die than be humiliated, etc. The truth is what you say is no worse than what I hear from the so-called moderate imams. So don't worry.

And in case you were wondering, no I don't hate anyone. Hate is the one thing I think nobody deserves. Plus it is unhealthy.

Several groups are planning a demonstration Sunday, Aug. 3 at the Embassy Suites hotel in Burlingame, 150 Anza Blvd., to protest the Judeo-Christian Zionist Congress taking place there Aug 2-6. The gathering time will be 2:30 and the demonstration will start at 3:00. Everyone is invited to bring signs and fliers. It is suggested that some of the signs have a religious theme, e.g.

Since when does God endorse ethnic cleansing?
How about love and compassion for Palestinians?
What does God say about coveting thy neighbor's land?
Christianity/Judaism = love, not hate

For more info about the judeo-christian congress, see

http://www.schindlersark.com/upcom.htm <http://www.schindlersark.com/upcom.htm>