Cheering Iraqis Are Silently Tell US Troops To Fuck Off

If this woman is protesting the US, one is reminded of the picture frm China of a man standing in front of the tank. But unlike China US troops are too stupid to realize that those standing in front of their tank hate them and instead think its a sign of support.

In wartime, thumbs up ALSO means "I'm okay with you, please don't blow my head off".

Since a thumbs up is symbolic representation of the male genitalia, the expression on the kids faces in the pics is kindof amusing...especially when you consider that what they are seeing is a grown man smiling and making a crude jesture...

In this case it means both. Its sortof a hedge, to Iraqi paramilitaries and the Arab world is seen as a sign of defiance but to the US troops it looks like support so they wont shoot...

http://www.balloon-juice.com/archives/002298.html

quote:
"
My conclusions:
1.) Thumbs up has multiple meanings, but in the nationss we are currently involved in, the meaning seems to be either innocuous or exactly as GI's are interpreting it. In Iran, it is pretty damned clear this is an insult.
2.) Memes, regardless of accuracy, spread pretty damn fast.
3.) If you have a comments section, read the damn thing. Blog readers have a lot to add to the discussion.
4.) Don't believe everything you read on the internet. In fact, it could turn out that I am 100% bass-ackwards on this, and the thumbs up is an insult.
*** UPDATE ***
My sister, who works for a prominent firm that deals with international communication, called the Iraq Foundation and spoke with a member about the meaning of the thumbs up. Here is what she learned:
just actually called the Iraq Foundation and spoke to a gentleman (from Iraq) who told me that in Iraq the thumbs up is good--just like in the states, Thumbs down is bad, and the middle finger still means 'F--- You.' (So it is all the same.) If the pictures are from Iraq, the kids are happy to see us.
"

Of course, you Indymedia types seem to ignore all media sources that don't agree with your pre-arranged agenda, soooooooo...

I am against the war and think Bush is a lunatic, but you guys are demonstrating zero credibility with the bizzare commentary
accompanying these pictures. Even a brief search through the internet confirms that Iraqis are "savy" enough to know what a thumbs up
means to the West.

Check http://www.news-journal.com/news/content/news/ap_story.html/Intl/AP.V0043.AP-War-Baghdad-on-.html

[snip] They kept Iraqis at a distance, but some of those chasing horses sprinted by and jubilantly greeted American forces.
``Bush!'' they said, turning their thumbs up as they smiled.
Then the thumbs went down. ``Saddam!'' they yelled in disapproval. Marines waved and smiled back.

I don't think that can be any clearer.

Man, it's tough enough to draw attention to the important issues here like humanitarian aid, independent Iraqi rule, and depleted uranium
without spewing garbage that gives the right wing a club to hit us with.

Iraqis all learned English and American customs in one day and are now chanting for the US in English? The mass prduction of American flags etc.. in such a short time is also amazing... Imagine a US crowd trying to chant something in Arabic...

Give some thogh to what you are seeing since very few Iraqis understand English and any large printed sign or US flag had to have been given to people by Americans.

Was this the last announcement from the Iraq Ministry of Information. Its surprising that he did not say that the Americans are not in Bagdad.

"well, not all iraqis speak english. but quite a few do. it is, after all, an international language."

So Saddam Hussein's school taught Iraqi's English??? This was an issolated country. Yes many people in many countris speak English but I would guess that learning about American culture wouldnt have been a big priority in Saddam controlled schools...

Some Iraqis speak a little English and most speak very little(yes it was taught in many schools but wasnt that useful for most people when the embargo prevented all but the oil trade). While much of Iraqs oil went to the US, that did not mean a huge US presence... Considering the age of most of the kids in the photos on CNN and Fox seen so far, it is doubtful that most of the crowd shown understood English (and outside of people celebrating in the North there really has only been one celebrating crowd shown in Baghdad on the news so far) Interviews with AP reporters in Baghdad describe most people as being very scared and staying inside. The immediate fear is more fighting and the looting that has just started, but there is also widespread distrust in America intentions.

The true proof of the direct US PR effort behind todays events are all of the flags and banners since obviously those were not produced in Iraq over the past 10 years. A picture of a young girl with an American flag smiling is only proof that when a man with a machine gun hands you something you pretend to like it. The banner (interestingly in British English) denouncing hunan shields appears to have been given to Iraqis by British soldiers.

Many Iraqis may to seem friendly to their new overlords and as with Saddam kissing up to the Americans seems like a good way to stay alive, but the pictures so far are on the whole staged.

A tale of two photos

You have probably seen the photos of the statue of Saddam Hussein being toppled, and TV footage of jubilant Iraqis rolling the bronze head around, bringing back memories of so many previous popular uprisings – 1989, 1956, 1953...

If there is one thing this war has taught us all, it's that we can't believe what we're told. For Donald Rumsfeld these were "breathtaking". For the British Army they were "historic". For BBC Radio they were "amazing".

Here's the truth.

First there is a photo from the BBC website showing the statue toppling. Below that is a long-shot in which you can see the whole of Fardus Square (conveniently located just opposite the Palestine Hotel where the international media are based), and the presence of at most around 200 people – most of them US troops (note the tanks and armoured vehicles) and assembled journalists.

The BBC website had the honesty to say that "dozens" of Iraqis were involved, but this grain of truth was swamped by the overwhelming impression of mass joy. The radio and TV were even worse.

The masses are no doubt glad to see the back of Saddam Hussein, but this was a US Army propaganda coup, staged for the benefit of the same journalists it had bombed the day previously, and which the British media have swallowed hook line and sinker. Shame on them.

Where were the other 4,999,800 Iraqis that day? Did they stage a counter-protest in another part of the city? Send pics!

I watched the event live and was never under the impression that there were more than a few hundred in that square. The broadcast networks I watched today all said that the massive displays were in Saddam City and in the north.

Many thousands of Iraqis were clearly overjoyed. Let them be. Don't explain it away to try to match your personal worldview. They have a lot of work ahead of them, but Wednesday night was a moment of optimism. Wish them well.

aren't all of you trying a bit too hard to find a silver lining in the grey cloud of a relatively easy allied capture of Baghdad and a population that is, at least, not overtly hostile to the alllies and at most somewhat happy to see a facist fall?

its a little unseemly.

and isn't there one word out there saying that even though one may not be happy that the allies are in Iraw, at least saddam seems to have fallen?

Consider this possibility: Maybe some Iraqis are actually happy that we came in and overthrew Saddam.

Wait. Just consider it. Is it possible?

If you have already come to the conclusion that there is NO evidence that can convince you that this is a possible reality (even if for only some of the population), then you are not a critical thinker.

We must always be willing to take facts and evidence and use them to change our previous assumptions. If you aren't willing to do that, youre just a dogmatist. If so, then you should go join the Inquisition or Jerry Falwell's circle of friends. They also only believe things because they believe, despite and against all evidence. No matter what.

I have a challenge to Indymedia.org and the anti-war community:

Donate money to an Iraqi relief organization (like Mercy Corps, UNICEF, whatever).

If it's true that 5 million people protested the war (by marching, mind you), and if every protester put up $10, then we'd raise $50 million for the people of Iraq.

I've already sent out my check. If you really, truly, honestly care about the people of Iraq. Don't fly out there to express your solidarity w/ them (the cost of your flight would probably feed an entire village), don't burn an American flag, don't defecate in front of a federal building. Send them $10 (or more, more is better). Do something that actually makes a difference.

And since the war did happen and there's nothing we can do about it now, focus your energy and promoting democratic self-government of the Iraqi people. So Bush is an asshole, so what. Hussein's gone, we can build a democracy. March in defense of Iraqi democracy. And call on all nations - including France and Russia - to forgive the Iraqi national debt.

Let's stop criticizing and start supporting something positive. Can't cry over spilt milk. But we can send money to feed and cure Iraqis, we can promote debt forgiveness, and we can urge speedy democratization. Let's focus on those things.

You won't raise very much with that appeal. The war protest are mainly an excuse to spew their hatred against the Bush administration. Most protest for their own feeling of self satisfaction. Donating money would not draw any attention to themselves, which is what they really want. I have not seen one rational argument against the war. All I hear is its a war for oil. If that was true all we would of had to do is buy it. Saddaam would gladly of sold us all the oil we could possibly want. France and Russia had no problems putting money into his pocket. Useless gestures like protesting blocking traffic and pulling down a "statue of Bush" will do nothing but drive people away from your cause. Bush won the election, as every recount shows, get over it. You may not like his policies but until there is an election you are stuck with him. Just like I am stuck with government policies that I don't like. Despite your rhetoric about this being a police state this is still a representative democracy. The majority of Americans support the war. Why don't you protest a true police state like Cuba that just imprisoned people for speeking out against Castro. I am tempted to donate money to the anti-war movement because I believe the more vocal you are the more people you'll drive to the right.

Or could it be that since the Iraqis adopted the "thumbs-up" symbol after the first Gulf War and that the Iraqis are not a backwords fundamentalist society they can adopt to new ways? By the way, when people give a thumbs up as a bad gesture they usually aren't smiling.

Much of the argument here tends to the problem that Iraqis aren't supposed to speak English. Interesting. Russians learned English throughout the Cold War. Millions of Chinese learn pretty decent English even now. English is a universally spoken language - whether you like it or not.

So far I've not seen any evidence as to why NO Iraqis would know ANY English (I won't go into the "thumbs up" nonsense). Let's imagine that only 1 percent of Iraqis speak English. That's about 250,00 thousand English-speaking Iraqis.

As to the sign about human shields. Do you have any evidence that it WAS made by the British? That sign was photographed in Baghdad. Last I heard, that wasn't occupied by any British troops. I assume you say that because of the word "wanker" (a British slang term) in the sign. Well, like it or not, the most popular (still!) form of English taught around the world is British English. Especially in former British colonies -like Iraq.

Thanks for being one of our most loyal viewers, centellas. We distort, you comply.

"One would think this would be something the US troops were taught but the US is egotistical enough to actually shout commands at Iraqis in English so I'm assuming that means there was no training"

hmm, i just went and got my 'deck of death' from the pentagon site, and look what i've found:

"Two young Iraqis give the thumbs up sign to coalition soldiers."
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Apr2003/030411-D-6570C-008.jpg

very nice picture, especially the face of the right child :) i mean, if even the pentagon does not seem to know the significance of this gesture, i would not count on training the troops on this.

btw, download page with deck of death:
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Apr2003/g030411-D-6570C.html

Actions speak louder than words
Nonverbal communication across cultures can cause misunderstandings
Joseph Pope, Staff Writer
April 08, 2003


With all the difficulties associated with the war in Iraq, communication between Iraqi civilians and American soldiers might appear to be trivial. However, a slight misunderstanding between the two could lead to harsh consequences.

When people from different cultures or nationalities try to communicate nonverbally, using gestures but not words, misconceptions are likely to occur. If these false perceptions are not clear, they could be taken offensively.

Nonverbal communication is defined in Martin and Nakayama's Experiencing Intercultural Communication as "communication through means other than language-for example, facial expression, personal space, eye contact, use of time and conversational silence." Depending on what part of the world you are from, the meanings of these communicative devices can differ drastically.

More specifically, gestures that bare a specific translation, such as the "OK" sign or the "peace" sign are known as emblems, according to Martin and Nakayama.

They also stated that although many facial expressions, including the "disgust face" and most other emotions are for the most universally translatable, nonverbal communication also varies between cultures in many ways.

An article on msn.com describes a scenario in which Iraqis were giving American soldiers a "thumbs up" sign. Given the Western denotation of this symbol, the troops assumed they were receiving support from the Iraqis.

It's possible that the civilians understand the American meaning for the "thumbs up" sign, and that they were being supportive of the American mission. It's equally likely that the Iraqis were silently displaying their discontent since the traditional Iraqi meaning for the sign translates to "Up yours," according to msn.com.

The sign has a similar derogatory meaning in parts of West Africa, Russia, Australia, Iran, Greece and Sardinia, according to msn.com.

Dr. Rebecca Dumlao, assistant professor in the department of communications, says, it's a popular misconception that you can look at a person's body language and know what they mean.

"I always tell my conflict in communication class, when looking at nonverbal communication, it's like an iceberg," said Dumlao.

"You can see the ice that's on top of the water, but there's a big part underneath that you cannot see."

In other words, nonverbal communication involves underlying assumptions that people from a particular culture understand and recognize, but if you're not from that culture, the true meaning may be lost. This is because learning nonverbal communication isn't the same as learning a language - it's quite different.

"You learn a language," Dumlao said.

"But we are socialized into nonverbal communication. It's something we subtly pick up all our lives."

According to a video produced by the University of California at Berkeley entitled A World of Gestures, children become fluent with gestures of their society as they get older.

Since it's not possible to sit down with a person and teach them all the factors of nonverbal communication for a society, it can be problematic.

Dumlao said, one of the biggest problems with nonverbal communication is that differences in perceptions can quickly lead to conflicts and misunderstandings. Misinterpretations and incorrect assumptions are common when people try to communicate without using words for clarification.

This is especially troublesome when two different cultures associate different meanings with similar emblems.

For instance, the middle finger in America means "Up yours," and in El Salvador it is a reference to a homosexual, but in Uruguay it translates to "I don't believe this!" Giving bunny ears to someone in France would be an insult. Also, the "I've got your nose" gesture that Americans do is offensive in some places, and in England, reversing the "V" for victory corresponds to "Screw you," according to A World of Gestures.

Some countries such as the Netherlands, Sweden and Norway don't have any obscene gestures of their own, but they recognize foreign ones, according to the video.

Since you will always be faced with nonverbal communication no matter where you are, it's a good idea to clarify meanings before you react to what you think someone is conveying to you.

"It's one thing to see something," Dumlao said.

"It's another thing to interpret what you see, but it's quite another thing to make a judgment based on what you see."

http://www.theeastcarolinian.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2003/04/08/3e9301e71b250

dude yur wrong! what do you think your talking about