OPD Arrived At Docks With Gas Masks On

I witnessed the first 3 hours of the Port of Oakland demo this morning. (all times within 15 minutes)
5am: 200-300 protesters peacefully picketing the first APL gate. (Berth 60-63) Regular Oakland police block traffic to prevent accidents and confrontations with incoming truckers etc. )
5:30am 200+ more protesters arrive to picket at 2nd APL gate farther down the street. Police also there to direct traffic and defuse tension.
6:00am more protesters go to farthest gate to picket there [this gate was at the limit of my ability to see]
6:45 Large contingent of OPD arrives wearing gas masks and armed with rubber bullet guns and chemical weapon grenade launchers. [I knew this signalled trouble!]
7:15 Police at middle gate apparently tell picketers to disperse. I was too far away to hear, as I was walking down from the first gate at the time. Picketers quickly crossed the street to stand on dirt between pavement and railroad tracks on the opposite side of the street.
The gasmasked police then formed a line that prevented almost everyone from leaving the area. There is no exit on the other side of the police line location! At this time there was a line of trucks and cars waiting to enter the dock area.
When I got close enough to first police line to take these pics, suddenly about 15 cops ran to cut of the few people (including me) who were behind their line. These cops would not let me leave even though I told the gasmasked officer I was leaving as they had apparently ordered. Fortunately they did not have enough officers to block the entire street and track area, so I escaped down the middle of the street.
7:30am Police arrest several picketers and put them into a van. since I could not get close enough to take good pics, and since I did not have a press pass, I start walking back to the first gate.
I hear two loud shots, and turning around see what looks like tear gas being fired into the air back at people who are trapped by the OPD. One grenade is lobbed about 25 feet in the air and I clearly see a smoky trail behind it. There appears to be no valid reason for this use of force as ALL protesters have been completely peaceful and non-confrontational!

Every dock worker who wanted to leave the area was assisted to do so by protest monitors.

Late breaking news: A friend told me via cell phone that she saw police pick out a Global Exchange activist who was talking to a truck driver, saying "Arrest her!" Multiple cops then "swarmed her" and arrested her. This same friend witnessed the unprovoked use of concussion grenades by police on protesters, dock workers and truckers.

Thank god for Oakland/San Francisco non violent direct action troops. You guys are courageous and an inspiration to us down here in LaLa land.

Kiss, kiss!

the whole world is watching y'all out on the west coast, and are inspred beyond beleif...

if only the rest of us could get our act together....

Sitting here in Oslo, Norway, in the office of Indymedia http://www.indymedia.no - - we are all impressed with the San Francisco Black Block. We've got our own Black Block here in the Norwegian capital city, but we cannot find more than a maximum of 600 parttakers in the line of action versus political authorities (ie. anti-terror national swat-teams and full legions of official police), whilst San Francisco is reported to be in quite another manpower position. 4000 blackblockactivists, eh? Well we're impressed. Continue your good work. And we'll do our best here. Of course.

Jesse, on another string, said "We were blockading a corporation who profits from the war. "

You said "CD wasn't even planned for the docks, just a peaceful picket."

Blockading is CD. Someone didn't get the message.

i regret not being out there with those comrades. i'm at my stupid job in marin, but i'll drive down there if anyone knows there's stuff still happening. please email me at thew94610 [at] yahoo.com

I was at the docks early this morning too. like was said, it was completely peaceful picketing and then a bunch of police in gas masks show up and start corralling and firing for no reason as far as I or those around me could see. This one girl near me got shot in the face with a percussion genade (she's in the hosptial now). A guy near me got shot in the nose with a rubber bullet. There was a guy near us who was shot repeatedly in the chest and back with wooden bullets the size around as those big silver dollars. He was bleeding and all... It was really scary. I got some pictures of them later once they were recieving medical care. But it's not a digital camera, so I'll have to scan them when I get them developed.

Do you know what treason is? This was not a protest, this was aiding an enemy of the US when we are at war. You're lucky the police didn't use more force.

Click here:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/05/127278_comment.php#1595773

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=578&e=3&cid=578&u=/nm/20030
407/ts_nm/iraq_protests_usa_dc

Loyalty to only one country is treason to the rest of humanity.

Technically treason is opposing ANY part of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
Guilty of treason: John Ashcroft
Tom Ridge
Dick Cheney
George Bush ( I& II )
Ralph E. Eberhadt, ect.

Technically treason is opposing ANY part of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
Guilty of treason: John Ashcroft
Tom Ridge
Dick Cheney
George Bush ( I& II )
Ralph E. Eberhadt, ect.

Do you know what treason is? This was not a protest, this was aiding an enemy of the US when we are at war. You're lucky the police didn't use more force.

Um, how was this NOT a protest? It was completely peaceful until the cops escalated it. And isn't it even a little relevant that the US STARTED this war?

Hey! Never mind the "armchair politicans", they're just sniping from the sidelines, they'll never have a voice in this democracy of ours except as their mass opinions are interpreted for them by their precious entertainment complex.


Ladies and gentlemen of the protesting persuasion, even if you are going to be nonviolent and just picket, you need to bring protection from now on! Make your signs out of solid materials - like plywood boards! These will make an effective shield from these "non-lethal" crowd dispersion weapons. It is not "violent" to have a shield. It's just as good a sign, and you will be glad you brought it when these projectiles are coming at you. They will protect your eyes, throat and face. Wouldn't it be nice to have something to duck behind besides some cardboard or some cloth?

Also, men, put something over your crotch - these projectile weapons were designed to be aimed at your crotch - imagine how that would feel! We're talking possible sterilization here. Get a cup or make one. If you have access to one, wear a helmet, have rags and water to shield your air ducts if tear gas is fired. We are too defenseless and this incident was just waiting to happen. To be nonviolent in this day and age you have to be able to stand up to the paramilitary forces (OPD & SFPD).

Don't fight the cops - don't throw bolts at them, what does that accomplish, it puts the rest of the people in danger. If you're going to throw shit at cops, do it when the rest of us aren't there to get hurt in the crossfire. We're not a guerilla army, we're citizens doing what is our right. Think about your actions and the repercussions they have on the rest of us, in a direct and physically dangerous sense.

Look at it spelled in black and white in the AP reports of this incident: the police use bolt-throwing to directly justify this force, and the public will buy it. You are giving them the key arguments they need. Without you, they would be in much much deeper shit! You are feeding the media slander machine, and you also give police a legal pretext which they can argue in court. "Deputy Police Chief Patrick Haw said,'Police moved aggressively against crowds because some people threw rocks and big iron bolts at officers.'"

Peace Oaktown!

-dumpy

Actually, because the Congress did not declare war (and no the resolution does not count), we are technically not at war. Check out your Bill of Rights and your Constitution before you start throwing around treason.

Treason is when you declare war without the checks and balances of our government in place.

The protesters did not send classified info to Iraq, or do business with Iraq (unlike Cheney). They have a right to speak out against the Government. It is an undeniable right of U.S. citizens. You might not agree with them and that is your right as well. But treason, please....

The comments read thusfar thanking Bay Area protesters for their courageous stand are echoed from Seattle. Whether by shame or example, the good you do is resounding!

Can you believe the hate speech the right wing whatever nazi's are throwing around. Saying the cops should have used real bullets and talking about hanging people. It's so out of hand.. these are MURDER THREATS! You should see the yahoo article comments.. it's really bad.. these are some insane and violent people.

You can't expect these people to know what treason is. We have no money for education, it all goes to our military. that's part of the corporate plan.. to drain civil society of any value and use our bodies as labor/tax tools. hey don't know what the constitution says. they don't care. they are supporting the most treasonous bastards EVER.

This is so sick.

We had a march here in chi on saturday. it s big for chicago.. and the police were in huge numbers again. But the people came.. there were kids and elders there. no one was afraid..they separated some kidsfrom their parents on m20.. sent a kid to dhfs while his dad was in jail, they weren't even protesting i don't think. they tried to instill fear by breaking some bones and heads on m-20 here. but people keep coming out..that's what we have to do..

send some instructions to the chicago indy media site on how we can support our dock workers.

now if we can just get the teamsters to stop trucking that shit and the factories to stop making it!

cheers

END WAR!

We need to couple this incident with Tony Hall's proposal as well(He wants to economically penalize the anti war movement) I talked to a staffperson in Chris Daly's office who said that they are seeing a lot of SUPPORTIVE e-mail in favor of Supervisors Hall's legislation, and urged us to keep up the pressure. Below is his e-mail.
Tony.Hall [at] sfgov.org

Where do all these jingoistic weirdos come from? The L.A> Indymedia site is just the same. These people, who have every appearance of wanting to DISTANCE themselves from their civil rights, somehow become aware of this place and write their hate mail here..? It's not like you can link here from MSN or something...

So it's ok for protesters to disrupt buissness and block traffic?

Stop acting like the victims.

To answer, "funney thing..."

Can you say, cia, fbi, homeland police, nsa, army, navy, m7, gsi, greed$, sickminds, and $getinmywayandiwillkillyou$, type of places, it may be comming from?

So much sickness of mind out there.

some people think it is, some people think it's not. they make their different decision based on their values.

people who rant at other people, denouncing their personalities (for which they have no basis of judging), and enouraging VIOLENT acts, are setting themselves up for criticism. people who lash out and use harrassment, abusive language, profane name-calling, and threats are not making themselves anymore credible.

the anti-war movement is not going to just vanish and go away because some nuts are out there doing their best to intimidate and spread hatred and fear. people who post thoughtful, non-abusive comments, regardless which side they're on, are met with the same. people who rant like animals and applaud the abuse of other people seem like tired reruns of the anti-commie days. whether it's levelled against "towelheads", "commies", "incense burning peaceniks", "traitors" or whatever, those posts are doing nothing more than showing off how mindless, evil, mean-spirited, and groundless the support for this war is based on. It strengthens our convictions in this movement.

I don't blame you for being annoyed by blocked traffic. The more the huge numbers of protesters will have to use more direct means to get our voice represented in this country.

We are not a minority - this I firmly believe, if you are weaned from the mainstream media (and by this I mean stop accepting it uncritically, not stop reading it, for god's sakes) you will no longer take refuge in specious polls which show so many americans in favor and so many opposed. They lie. What's more, those numbers fluctuate wildly, largely due to the reaction to news reports produced by the self-same companies which put on the polls.

Everyone opposed to this war is learning how best to try to stop the war in their own way. There is no official manual. We're mostly peace-loving law-abiding citizens. There are some elements who are more extreme and want more militant action. If we were an organized body, with committees and subcommittees, we might be able to rein in those people and tell them not to do it, but we can't because they are individual citizens who are acting on their own volition without orders form any centralized body. Everyone has a different stance on blocking traffic.

I'm on the fence, personally. What's at stake here, obviously, is much more than whether traffic is allowed to pass or not - this is not random, arbitrary agression towards random citizens - we are random citizens too - deal with it. Your efforts to paint us as some kind of leftie gorup is failing mostly because this is a highly differentiated & truly grass-roots movement, involvling people from all different backgrounds, far more diverse and numerous than portrayed b our local news.

So if you don't understand or appreciate what the protesters are doing when they block traffic, then realize that is exactly one good reason to do it. To wake you up and let you know, from real people, people in this community, that we own the society, and we dictate what its resources are used for. You, as a worker, are one such resource. When traffic is blocked, you are used as a resource by the protesters - another angry, blocked commuter unable to get to work. Realize that when the traffic is NOT blocked, you are also used as a resource, by the federal government who claims to be waging this war in your name. By your silence and passive acceptance of it, you are used as a representative of the supposed "silent majority". You are taking sides by being passive. There is no way to be neutral and also a ctizen of this country. If you want out of this struggle, go to Switzerland.

You are on one side or the other, even if you think you are "Apolitcal". As long as you continue to strengthen the institutions which make it possible for our soldiers to be used as human sacrifices, you are part of this. Whether you realize it or not, you are being used as a pawn by either side. Best thing is to wake up and decide what you think for yourself and don't stick your head in the sand.

If there were some kind of national "complaint box", if letters to congressmen were heeded, if the opinions of this huge & historically unprecedented movement has some fair representation in the news media, we might leave it alone, but there is no other outlet to turn to. The more we are forced to shut up, the louder our voices, and our actions will go. We remain committed to nonviolence, but civil disobedience can be illegal, and it is MEANT to be disruptive to the "normal flow of the stus quo". If it wasn't, it would be irrelevant and ineffective, don't you think? How many rallies in the park have changed *your* opinions or national policy? By asking us to stop, you are asking us to shut up, and to take our protest into a safe zone where no one will hear it except those who agree with us already. No way. It's going to be uncomfortable, we're going to be unpopular, but by golly, more people support us than are against us, and it is growing. So sit back and watch us make history happen while you focus on trying to get to work ok?

Also, if you read the posts on this site, as you probably do, why not think ahead and try to avoid being in major commuter thoroughfares when you know direct action is being planned? Stop crying that your life is being impeded. If it's really important to you that you get to work on time, get out of the way of street clashes, stay away from large crowds being attacked by police and you should be just fine. You can't stop it, it's bigger than individuals, and it's made up of individuals.

Read the real news, an difnd a completely different picture. Your smug confidence in the american miltary campaign hasn't won the war, nor has it helped Rumsfeld, or our generals. All of their predicitons have been wrong. You are buying everything cnn,fox, abc et al have been feeding you. An adult thinks for themselves, and takes responsiblity to find out the truth even if it's difficult.

read this and try to disagree. want to argue now?
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/04/1596305.php

Wake-up, wake-up! This is not simple about, the most powerful military force ever on the planet Earth, being able to win or not win over a very much smaller military force, that of Iraq. This is about, Bush, saying to hell with the World through the Worlds legal body, that being United Nations, which was GIVEN this, Iraq situation to deal with. This is not aligned with the principle of Law.

The Bush doublespeak continues in things like the so called Patriot Act and other edicts that rip the foundation out of what the best of America has stood for, for over 200 years.

Can you believe that if the Government does not want you to have full Client Attorney rights of privacy they can sneak in anyway they want and spy on you and your attorney, Wake-up!

This War is almost over?, (HELLOOOOOooooooo), its going on well after the Bush so called, take over in Iraq, do you not see Gestapo Police State and Black Listing all ready happening?

Well, maybe you are just one of those, my Country, “right or wrong”, I do not care, types?

Well, {We the People/Power to the peaceful}, We do care, and We will always.

And the actions of the Activist for Peace and Justice and a better life for all in the name of love and not greed goes on, forever!

This is the most stupid thing that the police could have done. They attacked a peaceful protest on one hand. And, they attacked workers who they are supposed to protect and help get into the port so that they could get to work.

What will happen? Well in the middle of a very bad city budget situation - this will cost the city millions of dollars in lawsuits and legal fees.

So for the PMA idiots who pushed the port authorities and companies to force the police to attack the demonstrators - we will end up paying the bill.

Way to go? Obviously that last poster laying hurrahs for the police doesnt pay taxes or doesn't understand what has happened. Even the most hardcore economic conservative needs to be pissed.

Of COURSE it's OK to interrupt "normal" life, war commerce, and whatever. It's MANDATORY--if we don't, we will be answerable for our inaction.

I would just like to extend my solidarity to the peaceful protestors of the SanFrancisco area and the rest of the United States. In this dire hour, the eyes of the world are focussed on the people of the United States, as they are the only nation who have the power to unseat unelected president George Bush, who is running roughshod over the constitution of your country and pissing at the world. In my country, South Africa, we know that protest can change the face of history. I will light a candle for you when I go and protest outside the US consulate later this week. Your solidarity is heartening.

I used to live in Oakland, and concider it my home..I love that city, I am so heartbroken to hear of the violence that is occuring there.I remember it to be a place of tolerance (even by the 5-0).I feal that we as a country are moving into dark and dangerous times, when a dissenter can be equated with a terrorist..Now is the time for everyone with a vision of a new world be it peace activists or black blockers we MUST ALL stand together as one voice to say no to the imperialism that is being pushed onto beaten innocents.keep the faith my brother's and sisters do not fear..

I served 2 tours of duty and was involved in many riot situations, these were anything from stone and bottle throwing to petrol bombs and shots(at us) being fired. Not once did I see so much brutal and over the top violent force being used against the protesters and people say the USA is a free country ?.
Blair and Bush show me the WMD that you said was the reason for invading Irak, it makes me sick to see the US/UK forces attacking with overwhelming air superiority and artillery and tanks. The Irak forces have been denied air power, their tanks are from 1955 and 1972, their guns are old and falling apart. You glory boys go and pick on a country that has the capability to fight back, where the odds are even and see what happens then ?.

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
- Theodore Roosevelt in 1918, following Woodrow Wilson's sweeping crackdown against dissent after the American entry into WWI

Frightful.
the reich in germany at least was open about it.
"we are this AND IF YOU DON?T LIKE IT YOU'LL GET BRUTALIZED" sounds like someone started playing <Risk on acid (with his dad) a long time ago, and has never stopped playing. So what if he WINS?! Ok mr GWB you won. The world is yours. NOW WHAT? is he just gonna start playing sim city?
Frightful. I repeat.
watch the concentration camps (ehm.. guantanamo)
AND each oter's back! :-«

We , the people, can not be forced to kill others. Bush and his blinded followers will be enriched by any war, only poor people surfered. Let's stand up against the dictator G.W.Bush. This crazy monster took advantage of the Sep 11th tragedy to impose crazy rule on the whole world.

Two Tales to the future



It was a time of turmoil and confusion. The winds of change were sometimes violent and their direction unpredictable. Cherished beliefs and hallowed institutions were called into question, and even respected leaders often appeared weak and ineffective.

It was a time of great anxiety. Few could analyze the complex issues of the day with certainty, and even the boldest hedged their bets on the future.

In those days, people gathered into two great groups to confront the shock of change. Some gathered around the Predictors of the Inevitable and some joined the Pursuers of the Possible.

When complex problems arose and solutions could not easily be found, the Predictors would say, “Let’s be realistic. Things have gotten out of control. The system is not working. What’s worse – the ordinary person is helpless to change it.”

To anyone who proposed to take action, they said, “Forget it. What can you hope to accomplish when even our leaders are confused?” To anyone who tried to unite people to act in new ways, they said, “Groups are a waste of time.”

Now it came to pass that wherever these Predictors were believed and followed, people became apathetic and cynical. Voices of innovation and hope grew muffled and silent. Individual efforts to act diminished. The prophecy of helplessness became a reality. And the Predictors of the Inevitable could say, in truth, “We told you so…”

Now at that same time, in that same place, there were Pursuers of the Possible. When problems persisted and changes brought confusion they, too, were dismayed and sometimes afraid. But their fears were balanced by their confidence in themselves and those around them. Their feelings of concern were matched by a sense of responsibility to do what they could. And, always, they had Hope…

The Fourth Reich in America:

http://www.transbay.net/~nessie/Pages/fourth.reich.htm

Gotta love that "liberal" press, asking all the questions that keep us people free.

The question:
Were Oakland police right to fire non-lethal projectiles at protesters?

The answers:
Yes, best way to keep port operating. 52%
No, too much force on demonstrators. 44%
SFPD tactics better. 1%
Wasn't Jerry Brown once a liberal? 3%
total votes: 4,130

Hey, don't you think he should get *elected* before you fall all over him and join the black shirted fascists?

"When the Nazis came to get the Communists, I was silent because I was not a Communist. When they came to get the Socialists, I was silent because I was not a Socialist. When they came to get the Catholics, I was silent because I was not a Catholic. When they came to get the Jews, I was silent because I was not a Jew. When they came to get me, there was no one left to speak for anyone."
Pastor Martin Niemoller

"Opinion from a British Army vet" ... really, wow! You sound so brutal, rough, laborious.

Calling any part of this country's official functioning government "Nazi" or "Gestapo" is absolutely disingenuous to the truth. As the son of a survivor in the concentration camps, I see no resemblance to Nazi Germany whatsoever. The police force in this instance may have used excessive force, and many on both sides are saying that, but it was not Gestapo-like at all. Had it been, all the protesters would have simply been taken away and immediately tortured and shot in the back of the head.

The one is an example of an excessive use of non-lethal and temporary force, and the other is an evil abuse of state power with lethal force as state doctrine. How the Left equates the two is far beyond me.

The mere fact that this was even reported in the news worldwide speaks volumes to the fact that this country is not a Nazi country.

Please, choose your words with more care. Call it heavy-handed all you like, but do not attribute to it the worst that humanity ever had to offer. It is nowhere near as such, and you cheapen the very definitions you are using with unwarranted hyperbole.

That's BS.

What was Nazi Germany like? It differed from year to year. US today is not like Nazi Germany in 1944, true. But that does not mean it is not like Nazi Germany in 1934.

That is absolutely untrue.

Nobody is threatening anything with your freedom of speech. I do not see anyone in America being shut down for speaking out against the war. In fact, this very web site speaks volumes about our liberties. There are millions of people who march openly against this war, who write against this war, who protest against this war in many ways. Apart from a few circumstances seen in the pictures above, most people are not afraid for their lives when speaking out against the war, nor are they afraid for their jobs. I know of no one who is hiding their opinions because they are not in favor of this war. I know of no one arrested because they are against this war. I know of no markings painted on the store fronts of people opposed to the war.

Just because there are bitter rivalries does not make one side Nazi in their thinking. Perhaps you should realize that the reason less people are openly against this war is because 75% of this country is behind it right now. Simply because you are in the extreme minority does not make you oppressed. Maybe you are right, and maybe you are wrong, but being in the minority does not mean that anything you say is automatically stifled. And simply because I, and others, do not wish to listen to any more anti-war rhetoric in the streets does not mean that we are revoking your right to say what you feel. Freedom of Speech does not mean that you have the right to impose your thoughts on others. It merely means that you have the right to express yourself to those willing to listen to you.

So I do not see this as a Nazi country at all and I think it incredibly extreme to think that it is so, just as I thought it was incredibly extreme for the right wing to go haywire with their accusations of Bill Clinton doing away with the Bill of Rights during the 1990's when Timothy McVeigh was public enemy number one. In point of fact, I recall a very necessary public crackdown on extremist right-wing groups in which the rights of the entire nation were curtailed for the good of the many, to try to do away with these evil people, and I do not remember hearing a single peep out of the Left against the laws that Bill Clinton signed away on for surveillance of thse groups.

And before you accuse me of not paying attention, I would like to mention the fact that I covered - as a photojournalist in Washington DC - those stories very, very, heavily. I saw no protests from the Left about our rights being taken away, and about our living in a Nazi state, but the FBI was doing to those right-wing groups what it is now doing to many left-wing groups and terrorist groups. I thought it appropriate back then and I think it appropriate now.

Blow it out your ear! Then maybe you will hear or see or understand, that it is not disingenuous to refer to having a Police force that is firing multiple wooden block munitions at the People that they are suppose to serve and protect, per some orders given by and or through the government that is suppose to be established to serve the general welfare of the people, NO, I would say, they did act in the manner of a Gestapo, the thing to realize is, is that they will do as much crap as they think they can get away with.

Hello, remember, it starts out small and grows, put the lobster in the pot and turn the heat up slowly, yes this bull crap they did is one of a Gestapo nature!

But, hey, you can think or say what ever you want, just don’t try and force, coerce or play mind games or word games as if you have the only take on this, you don’t.

Never Agian!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Gestapo: relating to, or characteristic of terroristic police methods or operations: gestapo tactics.

See photo of the policing of an anti-war protest in my home town of Liverpool, UK at http://www.staff.livjm.ac.uk/beshpate/antiwar_protests.jpg What a contrast to your experience - you should not have to endure such treatment

I haven't read all of the comments - there are so many of them, but i thought i might breifly add my two cents.

First, the USA is not nazi, it's fascist. italy, not germany. Look up fascism (and do it in some depth).

Second, someone back made a comment that needs to be reiterated: the US is acting contrary to the wishes of the UN, showing contempt for diplomacy and peaceful resolution. This can't be argued.

Third, someone back there needs to look up the proper usage of disingenuous.

Fourth, Bravo to the protesters. If people want to sit in the streets, they should be allowed to. 70% of the people may be "behind" the war, but if the other 30% are bitterly opposed, there are certainly going to be problems. Sheer "majority wins" mentality falls short when the minority is so significant.

As for police force, i am afraid of the growing schizm between authority and the people. how does it work? Can you go up to a police officer and say, "you know, i don't have any police officers as friends, would you like to come to my house for dinner?"

Probably not, but we need to remember that the police are even more brainwashed than the average person, and deserve even more pity. We need to somehow integrate police back into the community so that they can learn to appreciate differences and think critically about the orders that are given to them.

I am sorry for the people who don't look at reality. Our society is flawed, our representatives don't represent us. look at the votes on the senate webpage. strict party lines. republican = anti-environment. We consume and consume and fill the world with our own filth. And everything we do fuels this enormous capital machine that we defend because we've got it better than everyone else.

Think back in history to the tax collector that is willing to beat and terrorize people because he is treated slightly better. This is how power works. give a few people a tiny bit more and they will do your dirty work for you to protect that little bit that they have. we're doing it on a mass scale. letting horrible things go on because we're afraid we'll our cushy lifestyle.

And those of us who think about it realize that every day we go to work, pay our taxes, use electricity, drive our cars - we're fueling that machine. Let's not be silly here now. Money is power. And the people with it have so much more than everyone else that they will never lose it.

By the way, why do we need a space station? To get better television reception? To study the growth of vegetables in zero gravity?

The ONLY thing we can do is refuse to play along and watch that machine grow and know that it will eventually consume us anyway.

sad sad sad.

well, i wish someone else would have some suggestions regarding re-integrating community. That, i think was my one good point. Police need to be part of the community they are protecting. Not above it. Can that happen?

good luck to all of you who stand up and actively defend your freedom. To all of you who sit back and criticize them, i'm sorry.

The groups that Clinton went after were prepared for
armed struggle with the United States. The antiwar groups, on the other hand, do not stockpile weapons.
Moreover, you may recall that McVeigh blew up a very large building. I defy you to name one left-wing group
in the US that engaged in that kind of mass killing. (The Weathermen only killed one person, as I recall.)
You are making a simple-minded equivalence between groups with vastly different tactics. Right-wing groups, including anti-abortion activists, have often resorted to threatened or actual violence. Left-wing activists wave signs.

As for the "planned violence", shutting something down is not the same as violence. Perhaps you have heard of nonviolence disobedience?

Blocking access to a port that ships supplies to Americans at war has violent implications. If the anti-war movement (Out of the corner of my eye I am watching thousands of Iraqis literally dancing on a toppled statue of Saddam in central Baghdad -- the military phase of this war is effectively over) were successful in shutting down ports, American G.I.s would be without medical supplies, food, humanitarian aid, etc. Is it violent to deny someone medical supplies? Yes. This sort of "protest" is more akin to sabotage. It is for this reason that the "protestors" have little sympathy in the mainstream media.

I remember when in Argentina and Uruguay (that is next to Argentina ) the police use tactics like those and many more ,to see this happening in the USA which like to talkk so much about democracy and right to freedom of speech some of the currents events that have taken place in the USA is looks like where I come from (Uruguay) ........yes things start small and they get big.

But you can shot people with wood pelets o bullets what ever they are if one just hit in the right place in the head it will kill instantly , and some of the photos that I have seen is like they como from some latin country that is run by a dictator something that Sadam Husain would do .

Yes you can protest and all of that but just touch one of their nerves and you will see what happens to you as a protester when you speak truth.

If that port had been shut down supplies would not have gotten to the military. That is not disputed, it was the point of the entire action. Stop the military from receiving supplies needed to commit murder. Killing is wrong, whatever your motivations, every major religion agrees on this. So to deprive American soldiers of medicine, and food is a strong signal of our dissatisfaction with their actions. Over half a million Iraqi children have already died because of the sanctions imposed on Iraq by the UN. Children who did not volunteer to be hired killers. If those soldiers die in Iraq it is a choice they made, those children killed by sanctions or "smart" bombs that missed their targets never had a choice.

The idea that shutting down a war machine bent on invading any country it sees fit, even in the face of overwhelming global opposition from both traditional allies and traditional "enemies," by blocking the shipment of war materials is by no means threatening our troops. Anyone who claims to seriously believe this should look at the statistics about friendly fire or the impacts of depleted uranium on those veterans afflicted by "Gulf War Syndrome." The materials of war do not protect troops in the field--they facilitate violence. They are precisely what has killed so many civilians in this war and propagated long-lasting, sometimes irreversible harm to the environment. Destroyed water supplies as a result of bombing missions portends a much bleaker future for Iraqi citizens--one filled with thousands of painful deaths at the hands of preventable diseases like tuberculosis and cholera--at epidemic levels. The high levels of gamma and alpha radiation originating from recycled uranium used to line tanks and war planes as well as to case bombs are a tremendous and predictable threat to the health and well-being of US troops and Iraqi civilians. Infant mortality in Iraq is already astronomical.

The manner in which such concerted violence against both troops and innocent civilians can be construed as a liberatory act speaks to the efficiency of the corporate propaganda system in this country that ignores the real dangers to human existence (e.g., AIDS, respiratory disease caused by pollution, cancer from toxic metals and other lethal matter in the world's water supply ) in favor of more politically and economically expedient public boogie men (e.g., Y2K bug, anthrax, "Africanized" bees, young black men, any regime that sits on oil reserves, etc). An interesting comparison to do is to look at the number of people who died globally and nationally from AIDS-related illnesses last year and compare them to the number of people killed by Saddam, and then compare the major media coverage of these two topics. Interestingly enough, AIDS is hardly surfacing on the radar in comparison to the number of articles written about Saddam being an "imminent danger," even while AIDS has already killed well over 5 million people world-wide. The UN did not revise its prediction about global population in 2050 based on Saddam's existence, but they did do it for AIDS. In fact they are predicting that 50 million people will be dead by 2050 from AIDS if something drastic is not done to the global economic and health care systems. I can think of few other things in the world that deserve the lable "imminent threat" more than AIDS.

For "history buff," if you want a lesson in the effects of biological and chemical warfare, refer to the current health crises in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Guatemala, and Panama.

If you need evidence of the absence of commitment of the US to rebuilding the nations we invade, refer to Serbia and Afghanistan, though all the above listed nations are also relevant in this regard.

Also, the actions of peace protesters blocking streets and docks are fairly polite actions. Clearly those opposed to peace demonstrations and civil disobedience have little regard for understanding US protests in the context of the global arena. What they would find is overwhleming evidence that protests in the US are extremely tame in comparison to the rest of the world. Perhaps referring to student and worker protests in Mexico, carcerolazos in Argentina, or coca growers resistance in Bolivia would be of value (although most of the US citizenry would probably need the help of a map to find the locations of these countries). It seems to me extremely dubious, perhaps Orwellian, that people physically blocking the machinery of a corporate-military complex at war should be called dangerous. After all, this war has divided the US from traditional allies while producing mass hatred of this country. It's hardly surprising when we do so much to liberate people by maiming and torturing them (as Kissinger was so proud of during Pinochet's regime in Chile), outright murdering them (as our slaughter of 500,000 innocent civilians in Cambodia and Laos--neutral nations--demonstrated in the 70s), raping them (a particuar problem for our good ol' boys stationed in Okinawa, Japan, but a problem seen at every single US base in every part of the globe), and training paramilitary forces to summarily execute them (as is being done right now in Mexico and Colombia).

God bless AmeriKKKa.

Correctly so, we do not live in Nazi Germany, a dictatorship, or a facist government. We are live in America, and as a citizen, we have the right to voice are opinion, disagree with government policy, and participate in demonstrations. I seem to recall the 1960s, when there was a great portion of the population, who supported the USA involvement in the Viet Nam War (excuse me, I miss quoted myself) conflict. Many college students and other thinking individuals had a definate opinions on our involvement in Viet Nam. Do a little research, you would discover, that the general public was told, " the USA is in Viet Nam to save the lives of the people." Sounds familar?
Were we really there to have stategic military bases in southeast asia.
You have to ask yourself, are we there to save the Iran people, or are we there to have control over the oil fields? Is anyone aware, that Russia and France had made an agreement with Iran for oil? Was the U.S. happy about this? YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A ROCKET SCIENTIST TO FIGURE THIS OUT.........
I consider myself Patriotic,and do love my country, but no one should be labeled unpatriotic because they disagree with U.S. policy. Be careful, Don't let your freedom of speech slip away.

Correctly so, we do not live in Nazi Germany, a dictatorship, or a facist government. We are live in America, and as a citizen, we have the right to voice are opinion, disagree with government policy, and participate in demonstrations. I seem to recall the 1960s, when there was a great portion of the population, who supported the USA involvement in the Viet Nam War (excuse me, I miss quoted myself) conflict. Many college students and other thinking individuals had a definate opinions on our involvement in Viet Nam. Do a little research, you would discover, that the general public was told, " the USA is in Viet Nam to save the lives of the people." Sounds familar?
Were we really there to have stategic military bases in southeast asia.
You have to ask yourself, are we there to save the Iran people, or are we there to have control over the oil fields? Is anyone aware, that Russia and France had made an agreement with Iran for oil? Was the U.S. happy about this? YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A ROCKET SCIENTIST TO FIGURE THIS OUT.........
I consider myself Patriotic,and do love my country, but no one should be labeled unpatriotic because they disagree with U.S. policy. Be careful, Don't let your freedom of speech slip away.

What freedom.. Speech? that has been taken away socially for decades now. your only free if you agree. If you yell "bomb those ragheads" your o.k, patriotic even, but when you disagree with a system that has not only oppressed races and, religons, stole elections, allowed 9/11 to take place and rape the constitution with the patriot act and the remix version patriot act 2. well then your down right unpatriotic, unamerican even. a "Patriot" is a person that is willing to go to war for his/her rights and freedoms. Let's stop being sheep and start becoming sheppards. and by the way if you can't find that patriot act 2 anywhere don't worry it will be coming to your phone line, and email, it might even be playing at a theatre near you,

NO PEACE
Savage

What freedom.. Speech? that has been taken away socially for decades now. your only free if you agree. If you yell "bomb those ragheads" your o.k, patriotic even, but when you disagree with a system that has not only oppressed races and, religons, stole elections, allowed 9/11 to take place and rape the constitution with the patriot act and the remix version patriot act 2. well then your down right unpatriotic, unamerican even. a "Patriot" is a person that is willing to go to war for his/her rights and freedoms. Let's stop being sheep and start becoming sheppards. and by the way if you can't find that patriot act 2 anywhere don't worry it will be coming to your phone line, and email, it might even be playing at a theatre near you,

NO PEACE
Savage

For your piddling on the coattails of truth. You are here by given a dime.

You know why?

Reminds me of the story of the guy who when he got to heaven and requested to come in was ask what good he has done, his reply after much thought was, I gave two cents one time to a good cause.

To this the Gatekeeper at Heaven took out a dime from under his wing and gave it to the guy and told him to go to hell!

ha ha ha ha ha

You made some good suggestions of protection (however I get tried just at the thought of a plywood sign).

Concerning throwing of objects, many of my friends were there and actually shot, one friend has a video of it, (it's on indymedia somewhere) all of them and the video report no throwing of any objects. That was just complete bullshit. It's called an excuse... they will make one up.

I don't think this is anything new to anyone who has had any direct real experience with cops.

And as an aside, even if this did occur. We've already spotted at least one undercover cop there, I wouldn't doubt it was an insider job to incite. The first thing cops do when they step out of the van is put on gas masks, what does this tell you? They were already out with pouches containing percussion bombs when it was at it's most peaceful, what does this tell you? The cops for once in their lives actually don't bring a video camera to the protest, what does this tell you? The cops were seen to cock their guns before anything happened, what does this tell you?

From the start they had planned to make something of this, and that's exactly what happened.

This has happened before, they were there to incite a riot and defame the group. Mission accomplished? Fortunately no. There were some powerful people there, some god damn damning footage. Pics are all over the net and in newspapers of them aiming , at the face, parallel to the ground -all things that are illegal. They fucked up and should be shitting in their pants right now.

More than that they should discharged. They are to be our public servants, not public terrorists.

Interesting what trolling on the internet will come up with... this is a great collection of conspiracy theory! Police undercover incite riots? Does anyone really believe this, if so, where is the documentation.

Protestors make the country strong, however naivete makes it weak. I think that it would be wise for the posters on this to expand their circle of friends a bit and get some other points of view. Too much anger here, the war is on, now is time to protest for MORE aid to the Iraqi people or MORE aid to the people of Afghanistan.

More aid to Iraq, more aid to Afghanistan? We've already wasted $80 BILLION DOLLARS on this war crap. In the meantime our own public schools are falling apart, over 40 million Americans don't have health insurance, and our senior citizens are going to Canada and Mexico to fill their prescriptions. US veterans are seeing their benefits being slashed and Dick Cheney continues to receive up to $1million/year in payments for being the former CEO of Haliburton which has just been awarded several contracts for rebuilding the oil fields in post-war Iraq.
Obviously, Mr. Amused Moderate has never had any experience with the police in a demonstration situation. If he had, he would be aware that they do indeed come with their "plants" who purposely cause trouble in an otherwise peaceful exercise of democracy.

You sound like a real Angry American.

How much would it have cost us to take another terrorist attack on U.S. soil? $80 billion is far cheaper, I bet.

The VA used to deal with millions of veterans of war. The military is changing - doing far more with far fewer. Doesn't keeping the VA budget proportional to the number of servicemen make any sense to you?

Halliburton didn't end up getting those contracts you lied about. Also, all contracts will be awarded under the standard federal bidding process. If any violations under that arduous procedure occur, you let us know.

I'm glad to see the anti-war argument is reduced to taking pot-shots at the health care system in the U.S. Last I saw, life expectancy continues to rise. You liberals are great at problems, but very short on solutions.

here is something you can do...

also, there is a free fax service that lets you send a fax from your computer...

http://www.interpage.net/sub-wwwfax.html


i got the following info from http://www.peaceandjustice.org/alerts/

don't be afraid to telephone. they'll just do their best to try to get you off of the phone as quickly as possible... think of it as a game.

Phone or email Oakland Mayor Jerry Brown's office to protest this outrageous attack!
Office of the Mayor
Phone(510): 238-3141
Fax (510): 238-4731
E-Mail: officeofthemayor [at] oaklandnet.com


for those of you who think there is nothing wrong, i hope you are able to live in your ignorant contentedness for as long as possible. I'd just rather be realistic...

the real criminals are the ones who encourage the people not to think, and who poison the planet on a mass scale.

I do not wish that i'm right in thinking that the world is in crisis right now, but unfortunately i know it's true

To all haters;
I hope you're getting your kicks while Ashcroft is wiping his ass with our (all people's) First Amendment Rights. Soon it won't just be Arabs and South-Asians getting disapeared here in the land of the free.

And as far as supporting our troops, I wonder if any of these flag-wavers have ever visited any of the dozens of vets that hand out at Justin Herman Plaza or People's Park and are forced to sleep in doorways while people, I'm sure much like yourself, tell them to get a job . I guess we'll just have to keep the VA budget "proportional" to their misery.

Remember,
There are those that will burn the Constitution while wrapped in the flag and those that will burn the flag wrapped in the Constitution.

I'm down with the latter; now who has a match...

i think the reason so few solutions are offered is that the only solution seems so impossible. What it needs is a massive shift toward free-thinking maturity, where people open their eyes and see what's wrong. Sure, The US may provide well for it's people, but at the expense of others, and in a way that is insustainable and is causing irrepairable damage to our world. We are out of control.

The protesters are right, in that they are yelling "stop". Many of them do not even understand all of the reasons for it, but they know it's right.

The solution is taking place on a smaller scale, in communities where people encourage real creativity and thought. Where people judge others on their character and not on their tv ads.

Yes, as you say, "You idiots. They were breaking the law, impeding traffic. Simple. Fuckwits.”

Yes the Fuckwit cops were breaking the law, and not only messing up the traffic, but shooting at among others, a girl that was armed only with a small button on her blouse that said, “peace”.

Is it right to simply call the cops, Fuckwits, well it is for you, as for me, I have much harsher things for them and their group.

it gives hope to 6 billion people that there are still critical people in your country despite the propaganda you suffer from. keep on and tell the truth to your neighbors. you may be the last chance to save our planet!

11.IV.2003

Dear IndyMedia.org,

Thank you for showing evidence of behaviour I've not seen of American police for awhile. It's particularly encouraging to see decent Americans protest a clearly unjustifiable war and aggression against a sovereign state which did all it could to avoid that ' war '.

Thank you also for you patience with ' commenters ' who clearly wish to try to undermine your work. The flavor of their comments betrays their identity almost immediately.

Thinking people appreciate any news sources that don't mouth the same old stuff, by the same old mindsets.

Some of those thinking people also understand that one particular group has had -generations- of experience practising the Lie. Some of those thinking people might even belong to that particular group, though uncomfortably.

With websites like yours, it becomes more and more difficult for them to remain silent and inactive in the face of these events.

Fritz_Schaedel [at] yahoo.com

true freedom of thought.

you can't understand because you've never had it.

I truly hope someday you get a glimpse.

Until then, enjoy feeling superior as best as you can.

Freedom of thought, for you, means freedom from the bounds of logic and reason. I have those.

How can you say something like people should be allowed to sit in the streets? What if they prohibit a mother from getting to a sick child? Liberals point out the challenges facing working people, but impede those people in the name of imposing the liberal views upon those who do not wish them.

You do not respect individuals. You and other anti-war protesters - and other liberals for that matter - feel like you know what is best for everyone. You want individuals to submit to your leadership.

what i am talking about is respecting individuals, dave.

someday, perhaps you will begin to understand that there is more to the world that you have been told...

good luck.

You can't just hint that there are mysterious forces moving through the ether which only enlightened types like yourself understand.

People must make their individual decisions, rationally, based upon the information at hand. This is what separates science from voodoo.

I will say, however, that the propogandists on your side attempt to invoke uncertainty and fear in individuals by dropping hints about quagmires, pauses, and other vagueries. This is the last resort of your failed message. None of the doom regarding the war has occured, so you will move onto being 'saddened and disappointed about America's diminished image in the international community' and such nonsense.

i promised myself i would never get into one of these back and forth discussions... i always hate having to read other peoples... Buuuuut....

look, shooting harmful objects into the masses is NOT respecting individuals.

your accusations, dave, show that you are putting me in a class of people you have created in your mind, rather than listening to what i have to say.

your failure to recognize the simplest of my points, and make accusations that are clearly wrong, shows me that your argument is purely pedantic. Therefore, your rhetorical comments may remain rhetorical.

by posting your comments on this website, who are you trying to convince?

are you afraid that if you don't speak up, things aren't going to stay the way they are now?

Not the sharpest pencil in the box, eh? But, sure would make one heck of a good military follower...Onward Christian Soldiers

You sputter, “liberals for that matter - feel like you know what is best for everyone. You want individuals to submit to your leadership.”

Well, hello Davie, don’t you know that is such a childish thing for you to say, as it could so easily be reversed, but not by me. You know why Davie, I’ll tell you.

This is about LIFE, and the rule of law of the greater society, that incorporates all the Peoples of the World, and the peaceful and just treatment there of. We don’t have time for childish rants like yours that do not acknowledge:

That, G. W. Bush's, internationally requested and not granted through the United Nations, request to enter Iraq. So that he, G. W. Bush could preemptively go into Iraq, to War with Iraq, and overthrow the Government, and install one to the liking of G. W. Bush, for the claimed reason of Iraq being a clear and present danger to the United States of America, and that it was, according to, G. W. Bush, an imminent threat to the United States of America, based on, G. W. Bush's belief that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, such as Nuclear bombs, tremendous amounts of poison gas, and or other so called, (W. M. D. 's), and somehow was going to attack the United States by boat or plane or some other way, imminently, as in days, not months or years, this along with the belief that Iraq was not complying enough with the United Nations on rules put forth by the United States and others.

And by the way, Davie boy, did you hear the news today, the mouth person for, Srub/Bush, said in reply to the question if a legal World body like the United Nations or whatever would be created to sell Iraq’s oil, Ari Fleischer said, no, that we do not need to set up any legal entity for the sale of the peoples of Iraqis’ oil, the United States can do it how ever it wants, trust us, this he said, with a big smile, (yes this is a paraphrasing of what he said, but it paints it very well.)

So Davie boy, you keep trusting, and hoping, and all your other ways such as, mysterious forces moving through the ether, that you have of knowing that the right things are being done, if you want; But, for me, I will ask questions, and demand justice.

Also, if sitting down in the street, is what it takes to save lives, and the penalty is 3 days in jail, so be it!

By any means necessary

Power to the peaceful

I'm getting really freaking tired of hearing about how the peaceful blocking of streets may interfere with emergency services or prevent a mother from getting to a sick child. It's like street construction: yes, it temporarily blocks the streets and interferes with traffic, but it's *temporary* and it serves a purpose. Nobody accuses the construction workers of sabotaging America. (Though an argument could be made that cars cause a lot of deaths, terrorize pedestrians and cyclists, and ruin communities...hey, maybe we should call them saboteurs.)

Now, if there were real, violent rioting going on that actually made people afraid to go outside and walk in their own streets, that would be a different story. As it was, anybody could walk wherever they wanted, BART and Muni were still operating, and people in cars got delayed by a few minutes. Big damn deal.

You wrote:

"If that port had been shut down supplies would not have gotten to the military. That is not disputed, it was the point of the entire action. Stop the military from receiving supplies needed to commit murder. Killing is wrong, whatever your motivations, every major religion agrees on this. So to deprive American soldiers of medicine, and food is a strong signal of our dissatisfaction with their actions. "

No, that is sabotage during a time of war. You should go to prison.

"Over half a million Iraqi children have already died because of the sanctions imposed on Iraq by the UN. "

Bullshit figures. Have you seen Saddam's palaces on the news. Take a look at where the money goes. How about his son's 1200 luxury automobiles. But it's really the U.S. and U.N. who are killing Iraqi children with sanctions. Saddam chose their fate - soon, more children won't have to worry.

"Children who did not volunteer to be hired killers." ????????

"If those soldiers die in Iraq it is a choice they made,"

that's a choice that Saddam made by not stepping down.

"Those children killed by sanctions or 'smart' bombs that missed their targets never had a choice. "

True, Saddam made that choice. A lot less children died during our liberation than died during his gassing of the Kurds.

Take a look at the world and rethink about how evil America is. We are the good guys.

I will try to address your points one by one in a non-inflammatory way, if you intend to continue correspondence with me, I respectfully request that you do the same.

First off, I'd like to remind you that this country was founded by men who understood the tyranny of government very well, and only made a new nation after installing civil liberties which would allow for the dissolution of the government if it became harmful to its people. Many people are familiar with the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence and it is often quoted:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. "

However just two lines later it also says:

"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, having its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

The founding fathers understood that this country might one day become just as bad as the country which they had fled. To that end they made sure to institute a system of checks and balances, and a collection of amendments to our nation's Constitution which protected the rights of citizens against the government. The first of those amendments states:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. "

The protest which I was referring to was a peaceful protest, a right guaranteed by our Constitution. It was a protest against a war which many Americans feel is unjust, and unnecessary. The organizers of the protest rightly believed that it would send a strong signal of disgust with our government if a protest was scheduled which would close a port which was sending war supplies for that war. Nothing was destroyed at the port by protesters (other than perhaps their sense of well-being, or their faith in the Oakland police), so there was no sabotage as you said. The idea that one should go to prison for protesting however is far more dangerous. That would go against every ideal this country was built upon.

You didn't like the figure I used concerning Iraqi children so I will refer you to a comment made by Madeleine Albright (then Secretary of State) in which she said that the deaths of these Iraqi children (over 50% of Iraq's population are minors) ""I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it,". This is the same figure which Osama Bin Laden used (although he inflated it to a million children) to justify killing innocent Americans. While Saddam is ultimately responsible for these deaths, we must share some responsibility for them as well. As CEO of the Halliburton Corporation Vice President Dick Cheney gave $73 million to Saddam AFTER the first Gulf War. Now that same company stands to make $7 billion dollars after rebuilding the Iraqi oil wells according to several media sources (CNN, London's Daily Telegraph, BBC, ABC News, Reuters and the AP). To say that is coincidence is to gloss over the fact that nearly everyone in Bush's inner circle has deep connection to oil companies which stand to make a killing, pardon the pun. This war was never about replacing a dictator who threatened us, all the rhetoric about weapons of mass destruction has been shown to be a farce. No such weapons existed, no such weapons were used by the Iraqis against invading coalition forces, and despite Donald Rumsfeld's musings no such weapons were given to Iran or Syria (our next likely targets). This war was, much like many other policies enacted by Bush, a thinly veiled attempt to line the pockets of rich white men.

As to my reference to hired killers, everyone in the US military (and I myself have many colleagues and friends in different branches of the military) understand that they can be sent to war at any time. To kill when they are told to kill, to bomb when they are told to bomb. The fine men and women of our military are not stupid, they understand that they are hired killers, it doesn't matter whether the killing is justified or not. They kill on command. The innocent people killed by bombs and gunfire (between 900 - 1200 people by most media outlets) where not hired killers. They held many other non-violent positions, mothers, doctors, reporters, etc...

As far as Saddam having a choice, there is evidence that the US was planning on attacking Iraq even if Saddam and his sons had left (check out repots in Reuters that America would invade despite Bush's "choice").

America is a great country, I am very proud to be American. We as a nation have had several missteps, but the strength of this nation isn't its leaders. The strength of this nation is its people, and those people must speak out against things which they cannot tolerate. Anything less would be Un-American.

Rev. Skip Colon

Why do some people prefer to believe Russian intelligence over our own country?

Did anyone get any OPD badge numbers?

is this what freedom of expression is about? charging bullets to its own constituency?

what is a dictatorship? a power where a man (and its government) uses propaganda and violence to create fear?

i'm not sure we are too far...

Mike, the NoTV link on your website is also very good. We could all use a little more community involvement and less of the foxnewscnnmsnbc drivel.

Anna, Anna, Anna. First things first: on one or two briefly touched on levels, you're more or less right. Not all protest is appropriate, productive, safe, or altruistic. There are undefined limits suggesting what's too disruptive, and what's cool. Of course, those limits are subjective, and short condemming protests which are aggressive and overtly destructive, you're never going to get the public to agree on what those limits are.

That said, aside from that initial observation, your comments are crude, nasty, irrational, and largely self-discreditting. Suggesting that you enjoy observing protestors (even disruptive ones) beat or killed, for instance, makes one instantly question your age (are you a child?), intelligence, humanity, compassion, understanding of the law, and your patriotism.

There's a long legacy of protest in this country, Anna. Your personal boycott of your neighborhood video store is only the tip of the iceburg. Some are big, some are small. Some are pre-arranged with proper permits, while others are impromptu or improvised. Some are well-contained, organized, peaceful, calm, and under-control; others spiral like a bad rock concert into bogus violence and agression. Why? Because the world is full of all different sorts of people, Anna. Some are smart, and some are stupid.

Your ludicrously prejudicial rants (hippie shit?) about the makeup of those crowds suggests you may have forgotten that.

So what happened in Oakland that day? Well, you weren't there, and neither was I, so on some level, there's the problem of who you might want to believe. The official OPD claim is that the crowd was chucking things at them. Numerous (and I mean numerous, honey) accounts from not only the protestors, but also from independent journalists at the scene, insist that the group, though blocking a logistical artery, was behaving in a peaceful manner. The pictures seem to show a pretty level-headed looking group. I don't see a lot of urban commando nutcases in bandanas hurling chairs; I see ordinary-looking folks with placards looking confused and scared.

I also see orderly OPD officers in riot gear standing in well-ordered ranks, performing what appears to be the clear, deliberate, and calm deployment of non-lethal weapons -- not a beseiged squad under attack and fearful for their safety.

My guess? These cops aren't monsters, and they weren't necessarily interested in causing a major scandal. They are, however, perhaps poorly trained and a bit insensitive. Someone on the scene must have made the bad decision that firing on the assembly with weapons was a safe way to disperse them quickly without engaging them by hand -- perhaps the result of inadequate training with non-lethal weapons. Maybe no one reminded them that these non-lethal projectiles are quite dangerous, and should be used with extreme caution.

I don't know where you live, sweety, but here in the Bay Area, the cops aren't angels. There are major scandals involving violent crooked cops and the conspiracies around them in both Oakland and San Francisco. Frankly, there's a nationwide legacy of police misconduct, bad judgment, and brutality which is just as troubling and at least as prominent as the legacy of violent protest.

There's also a beautiful legacy of protest -- even disruptive protest -- unseating and shaking up social injustices.

The latest news from the Korean peninsula is that the North has dropped its demands for face-to-face diplomacy with only the United States.

This is clearly a ripple effect from the U.S. strong handed policy toward Iraq. Seems like the world is a little safer place than it was a month ago.

BTW - anyone out there been a victim of terrorism since 9/11?

Hey Nessie,

I meant Americans had not suffered. Now, why did you forget to mention the North Koreans, Israelis, and the Cubans who have suffered?

The U.S. doesn't target innocent civilians like your heroes the Palestinians do. If you can tell me about an army in history that shows more concern for innocents than the American, please educate me. I'd love to hear about that.

Dave, honestly. Do you seriously think that the world of anti-American Islamic militancy was dependent upon the stability of the Hussein regime? You can't be serious. Sure, North Korea seems -- seems -- to be recoiling a bit from the sabre-rattling pose they assumed in February. Sure, that's a good thing. But I defy you or anyone else to offer a convincing, or even rational explanation for why anti-American militancy and terrorism among those demographics who have comitted such acts to date (a broadening category) should ebb any time soon.

No, really, Dave. Why? Our biggest threat today is a huge chunk of the general population of planet, buddy. It's got nothing to do with cigar-chomping Generalissimos like Hussein (well, it does, but in a roundabout way... more on that later). Pissed off, misguided Muslim kids utterly convinced that the United States is an imperialist juggernaut of non-Muslims, bent on exploiting natural resources for profit in smaller, weaker countries, concerned more with capital gain than for the welfare of non-Americans. The only cause we're seen as having among the kids on Arab streets which isn't purely economical is the unequivocal support of the Zionist cause, and the bullying of fundamentalist Islamic countries. Right or wrong, that's the assesment.

Fools like Hussein? Hell, Bin Laden wouldn't touch Hussein with a twenty foot stick. He claimed a solidarity with the Iraqi people (why? see above), but nearly his entire adult life professed a hatred for Hussein and every other corrupt, secular Generalissimo in the Arab world.

Look -- the bottom line is that the Arab streets are where the American government is being tried and sentenced. The verdict? It's been "guilty" for over a quarter century, and the convictions keep on piling up. Who executes the sentence? Hussein? WRONG, pal. Terrorists.

Still feel safer? I can't see why. Educate us.

Dave: "If you can tell me about an army in history that shows more concern for innocents than the American, please educate me. I'd love to hear about that."

I have an opinion on this one as well.

The US military is much more cautious in regards to civilian life than the armies of the nations it tends to do battle with, which has led to this sort of statement. I'd much rather be a civilian in a country attacked by the US than one targeted by, say, a Somalian militia, or the Iraqi Republican Guard. Fine. That's clear and obvious.

Suggesting that this argument hinges upon that question, though, is bogus and straw-man-ish. The most gentle armed force in the world can be mis-applied, mis-used, or employed in an unjust fashion. If you're on the receiving end of even cautious military action, that's terror-inspiring, buddy.

Nessie's suggestion wasn't that the Marines are terrorists. It's that the government's use of the Marines is unjust, and borders on terrorism. Is it quite the same as the way Hamaas targets Israeli teenagers? Of course not. Depending on your perspective, though, it can be just as cruel.

Anyways, to answer your erroneous question, I think there are a number of armed forces which go further to spare civilians than the US military does... and on two levels. Firstly, those commands which abstain from invading heavily populated areas in the first place, such as a handful of our prominent NATO allies, strike me as more inherently concerned with war's nastier effects.

On a tactical level, I have a beef with the US military as well. Look to Afghanistan, Dave. Or either of the two Gulf wars. The sparing of US troop deaths at any cost has led to the extremely heavy use of air strikes as a standard method for softening enemy positions before a yank even so much as sees the battlefield.

The result?

An allied combatant to civilian non-combatant kill ratio of roughly 1 to 50-150, depending on the war. Think about that. What kind of a message does that send? These guys are soldiers -- professionals trained to fight and put their lives at risk -- but we're going to drop bombs and fire missles from planes for a while, risking your lives so that our pro fighters won't face resistence when they liberate you.

Huh?

Even the maligned Israelis, when things get bad, elect to engage in neighborhood occupying house-to-house combat in Palestine rather than launch sustained air strikes. They never, in fact, perform sustained air strikes.

The US tactical philosophy of maximizing civilian risks to minimize troop risks is, to me, less than admirable.

Is having a Police force that is firing multiple, hard, wooden, bullet, block, munitions, at the people that they are suppose to serve and protect, and doing so per orders given by and or through the government, is that government acting in the manner of a Gestapo Regime? > YES <

Wooden bullets:
These were deemed to be unacceptable by the British government in the 1970s in relation to use by British soldiers in Northern Ireland as they can cause serious head injuries as well as inflicting blindness and penetrating the skin.


To those sick and twisted, creatures who maybe do not even realize that they are punks, thugs, participants of criminal behavior, morally bankrupt, with the proclivity to shoot girls in the head, with hard, solid, block, bullet, munitions, so as to prove to them selves that they are something, as well as all who align them selves with these creatures, well; you better watch not only your back but your front.

Have a good look in the mirror in the morning!

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We the People .................

A link to check out:

http://www.indybay.org/uploads/carlyledemofix.ram

This video, (plays in RealMedia player), plays a very interesting video, of the Carlyle Demo, in N.Y.C., April 7th, 2003, where by the present powers that be, the N.Y.P.D. made 107 arrests, these arrests were made of the good people of New York/America/The World, Human Beings, that thought that the 1st Amendment of Constitution of the U.S.A. was still legal in the United States of America.

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Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion,
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
or abridging the freedom of speech, or
of the press, or the right of the people
peaceably to assemble, and to petition
the Government for a redress of grievances.

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Shall make, "NO Law" ................................
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BAD POLICE OFFICERS AND THOSE OFFICIALS WHO DON'T DO NOTHING TO STOP POLICE BRUTALITY AND VIOLATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS,
TO ME ARE CONSIDERED:
"AMERICA'S WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION"..
LET'S START GETTING RID OF OUR OWN WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTIONS BEFORE WE GO OUT TO CLEAN OTHERS FROM THEM!!!
THANKS

Treason! ? , Yes, I myself through pure ignorance fought in the VietNam (War), so I do know what treason is since it was pounded into out heads at the time by our government appointed superiors. Remember the "your life belongs to God, but your ass belongs to me" group.
Treason is not really the question here.
The real question is; Do you know what War is? When one man says, " I don't like you so I am going to send a bunch of kids over to kill you, your family, your friends, and anyone else I can aim a missle at", is that War? If you were to re-read the Constituation of the United States I believe you would have to agree that is not a legal reason for a preemtive slauter of non-combative people.
Isn't it sad to think that in a country of so called intelligent people the only word that our elected officals know is FIRE!