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Anti-Imperialists Burn An American Flag in Oakland To Protest The US Massacre Of Iraqis
Do symbolic acts have any effect? Can we stop the US murder of Iraqi civilians through peaceful marches carrying signs? We must take protests to a new level and get in the way of the US war machine; feeling morally justified in our beliefs is one thing but saving lives take more than mere self-righteousness.
"There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part; you can't even passively take part, and you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free, the machine will be prevented from working at all!"
-M Savio
-M Savio
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These are scary times when stuff like this starts to make sense.
I wonder if the author would comment on other movements that did not use the "unrest and disruption" tactics to achieve their goals. I believe that other examples could be used to illustrate the opposite point. Namely that large and varied enough participation can force unresponsive governments to pay heed to public opinion. In particular Gandhi comes to mind, as his movement is largely credited with achieving independence for India.
Thanks for your insights.
I wonder if the author would comment on other movements that did not use the "unrest and disruption" tactics to achieve their goals. I believe that other examples could be used to illustrate the opposite point. Namely that large and varied enough participation can force unresponsive governments to pay heed to public opinion. In particular Gandhi comes to mind, as his movement is largely credited with achieving independence for India.
Thanks for your insights.
History is the propaganda of victors.
I am shocked that someone would burn a U.S. flag.
WITHOUT first vomiting, shitting, and pissing on it, that is.
LET US BURN A FUCKING MILLION OF THEM!
I live for the day that there are no more of these blood stained rags on the fucking planet!
SOLIDARITY WITH THE IRAQI PEOPLE, the PEOPLE OF PALESTINE, and THE PEOPLE OF THE ENTIRE WORLD AGAINST U.S. IMPERIALISM!
WITHOUT first vomiting, shitting, and pissing on it, that is.
LET US BURN A FUCKING MILLION OF THEM!
I live for the day that there are no more of these blood stained rags on the fucking planet!
SOLIDARITY WITH THE IRAQI PEOPLE, the PEOPLE OF PALESTINE, and THE PEOPLE OF THE ENTIRE WORLD AGAINST U.S. IMPERIALISM!
No war between nations. No peace between classes.
<In particular Gandhi comes to mind, as his movement is largely credited with achieving independence for India.>
yes, and the Indian workers and peasants lives in peace and prosperity today.
time to come up with a better argument, sir.
yes, and the Indian workers and peasants lives in peace and prosperity today.
time to come up with a better argument, sir.
I know the author is likely to regard me as some wimpy soft-bodied liberal, but that's the beauty of IMC -- free dialogue from all directions.
So, here i include comments i made on flag-burning just after the 2000 (s)election. Take them as you will.
pax, -X
Dec. 2000.
All:
ok, i haven't seen any other discussion on this on this proposal yet, but-
1. i certainly feel the Republicans have essentially stolen this election,
staged a coup d'etat, and nine conservative people dressed in funky robes
have *no* right to decide the will of the people of a nation, and knew
since the very first day after the election that if and when it came to
this point, that this was exactly how i would feel -- i will never ever
*never* in the next 4 years (assuming we survive them) consider Shrubya as
my properly elected "President" and will not once ever refer to him as
that, but as El Election Thief in Chief or some other pleasantly
salubrious title (the only decent part of this entire sordid affair at all
was the Florida Supreme Court, who did all the right things and were the
only ones *actually* standing up for democracy -- i was very surprised and
impressed by them.)
2. however, given all this, i have never believed flag-burning to be
necessarily a very effective and useful stratagem in social justice
movements. it profoundly alienates many, especially those who have served
defending what they believe to be the integrity of this country -- which
is hardly worth much at this point, agreed, but i don't see that we have
to set ourselves so apart from those people, tell them their service was
worth nothing (especially WWII vets, i would say).
3. many will disagree, and given just how *totally f----- up* this
election has been, and how souring on the notion of what the US of A means
and stands for, i can understand why many will participate in a
flag-burning action across the country -- but i would rather do something
else. to show that i *believe* in the potential of this country and its
role in the world (in the very long-term), i believe in the fundamental
rights and freedoms enshrined in our Constitution (be it as it may written
by a bunch of white male slaveowners), and i believe in (the somewhat
ethereal and idealistic concept of) America -- and i *hell* of believe in
co-optation of the other sides' views and tactics, too.
remember -- this is being written by someone who's been arrested for
protesting US intervention in Central America and thinks the whole system
is so rotten to the core at the moment that
i welcome *all* serious social change.
4. so maybe we can do other more creative things: one of the best actions i saw along
these lines many years ago was a flag-*washing*, (in Wash. DC, during the
Persian Gulf war protests), where the guy took a dirty US flag and washed
it, giving a speech about (something like) cleaning up America, helping it
move forward to be all it could be and such things. hell, let's sing God
Bless America and the Star Spangled Banner during the washing while we're
at it! :>
en paz y justicia-
X
So, here i include comments i made on flag-burning just after the 2000 (s)election. Take them as you will.
pax, -X
Dec. 2000.
All:
ok, i haven't seen any other discussion on this on this proposal yet, but-
1. i certainly feel the Republicans have essentially stolen this election,
staged a coup d'etat, and nine conservative people dressed in funky robes
have *no* right to decide the will of the people of a nation, and knew
since the very first day after the election that if and when it came to
this point, that this was exactly how i would feel -- i will never ever
*never* in the next 4 years (assuming we survive them) consider Shrubya as
my properly elected "President" and will not once ever refer to him as
that, but as El Election Thief in Chief or some other pleasantly
salubrious title (the only decent part of this entire sordid affair at all
was the Florida Supreme Court, who did all the right things and were the
only ones *actually* standing up for democracy -- i was very surprised and
impressed by them.)
2. however, given all this, i have never believed flag-burning to be
necessarily a very effective and useful stratagem in social justice
movements. it profoundly alienates many, especially those who have served
defending what they believe to be the integrity of this country -- which
is hardly worth much at this point, agreed, but i don't see that we have
to set ourselves so apart from those people, tell them their service was
worth nothing (especially WWII vets, i would say).
3. many will disagree, and given just how *totally f----- up* this
election has been, and how souring on the notion of what the US of A means
and stands for, i can understand why many will participate in a
flag-burning action across the country -- but i would rather do something
else. to show that i *believe* in the potential of this country and its
role in the world (in the very long-term), i believe in the fundamental
rights and freedoms enshrined in our Constitution (be it as it may written
by a bunch of white male slaveowners), and i believe in (the somewhat
ethereal and idealistic concept of) America -- and i *hell* of believe in
co-optation of the other sides' views and tactics, too.
remember -- this is being written by someone who's been arrested for
protesting US intervention in Central America and thinks the whole system
is so rotten to the core at the moment that
i welcome *all* serious social change.
4. so maybe we can do other more creative things: one of the best actions i saw along
these lines many years ago was a flag-*washing*, (in Wash. DC, during the
Persian Gulf war protests), where the guy took a dirty US flag and washed
it, giving a speech about (something like) cleaning up America, helping it
move forward to be all it could be and such things. hell, let's sing God
Bless America and the Star Spangled Banner during the washing while we're
at it! :>
en paz y justicia-
X
I wouldn't say its over.....hell, Afgahnistan isn't even over. When we break up enough of the resistance, then lets talk about it being over, but don't count your chickens yet.
How about a Desert Storm Vet, 15 years of Army Service, I would like to Burn my Uniform that has more decorations than Audie Murphy, I want to burn it for the whole world to see. I want to burn it so that every person in the world knows our troops are obeying an unlawful order.
how much do you want to bet this guy wears all black to demos hangs out with others who wear the same uniform, and carries, or hangs out with guys who fly black flags? is the irony of the ardent nationalism of the "anti-nationalist" anarchist lost on anyone?
>yes, and the Indian workers and peasants lives in peace and prosperity today.
>time to come up with a better argument, sir.
Aaron is no economist (is it true you are a piano mover?). Like Brazil, India's slow development has much to do with the fact that they purposely instituted an insular economy in an attempt to be self-sufficient. Without trade (exports AND imports), their economies stagnated.
>time to come up with a better argument, sir.
Aaron is no economist (is it true you are a piano mover?). Like Brazil, India's slow development has much to do with the fact that they purposely instituted an insular economy in an attempt to be self-sufficient. Without trade (exports AND imports), their economies stagnated.
Remember, the tactics Gandhi used were, at the time, neither state-sanctioned nor publicly approved. He broke the rules. I agree that the current tactics, marches, etc. are not effective at changing public policy. However they can be good networking opportunities. We should remember that marching/wearing buttons/displaying bumperstickers is not enough.
However, I caution the writer of the original post that we not take on "the robes of the tyrant." There is the possibility of creating new meaning--turning away from the mainstream and living/thinking a different way. This method does not expect the mainstream to change--either by asking it, or forcing it. Instead it creates a new stream.
However, I caution the writer of the original post that we not take on "the robes of the tyrant." There is the possibility of creating new meaning--turning away from the mainstream and living/thinking a different way. This method does not expect the mainstream to change--either by asking it, or forcing it. Instead it creates a new stream.
I have no problems with those who exercise their rights to freedom of speech and protest...
but - sometimes I wonder why some people feel that thoughtful and intelligent people who already oppose the war with Iraq have to be lectured by people who seem to think they own a monopoly on political thought.
this march wasn't about flag-burning and escalating to the levels this person professes - this march was about bringing the debate back, the war on Iraq is also a war on us, because every dollar spent on bombs takes away from dollars people of color, workers, and students need for housing, hospitals, and schools.
American people of color, workers, and students are also victims - something ideologues against the war seem to always miss.
and reading from the quotes of SF Chron and Oakland Trib - people in the streets who came from all walks of life to talk about the domestic impacts of the war - I am impressed how right on mark this is.
the anti-war movement forgot the Americans in the urban centres, people of color, and youth and workers in their fight - and it's finally being addressed - and we will have a bigger and stronger movement as its result.
but - sometimes I wonder why some people feel that thoughtful and intelligent people who already oppose the war with Iraq have to be lectured by people who seem to think they own a monopoly on political thought.
this march wasn't about flag-burning and escalating to the levels this person professes - this march was about bringing the debate back, the war on Iraq is also a war on us, because every dollar spent on bombs takes away from dollars people of color, workers, and students need for housing, hospitals, and schools.
American people of color, workers, and students are also victims - something ideologues against the war seem to always miss.
and reading from the quotes of SF Chron and Oakland Trib - people in the streets who came from all walks of life to talk about the domestic impacts of the war - I am impressed how right on mark this is.
the anti-war movement forgot the Americans in the urban centres, people of color, and youth and workers in their fight - and it's finally being addressed - and we will have a bigger and stronger movement as its result.
If the S & S represtents the American people I suggest you get your hands on the senate, presidential ect flags instead and burn those. They have shown by their actions they have no love for the American people so why should they care, except for polital mileage, if you burn the people's flag. Burn their's instead.
im glad that flag was burned it newver represented freedom or democracy and that is not my peoples flag . it has been the flag waved by white murderers as they stoled our land and enslaved our people. i was happy to see that it was burnt by people of color. that flag represents rascism and death to anyone who is not a white middle class american.
Jerry Brown has clearly told the Black, Hispanic, etc., youth and workers of Oakland that participation in active anti-war activity will be met by the guns of the state. To add to the comment that mainstream anti-war organizing is not going to stop a war, I would add that only mass action by the slaves of the New Rome will have any serious impact. I propose to all serious activists, along with whatever creative and effective tactics that can be organized, that special emphasis be placed on mobilizing and organizing the youth and workers of Oakland into the struggle. This firing on the port demonstration was not a mishap in the slightest bit. Brown and the other protectors of corporate rule saw the march on Saturday, and saw the connection with actual disruption of war business. This is their deepest nightmare. They have made their message clear. It is up to all activists to bring the people of Oakland into the anti-war movement. This was left mainly to the Vietnam Vets in the earlier war, and contrary to the previous comments, this did have a serious effect on American politics, one that is still with us today. And above all, it is the fact that the inner-city youth and workers are the most dangerous force to corporate America. Got any suggestions on how to bring this force into action?
I have a very simple solution to all of you protesters and people who think you have it so bad here: LEAVE! I'm sure they would treat you much nicer in Iran or North Korea. All 'ya do is bitch and complain and think that the..ahem.."people" are going to rise up or whatever..well thats just great. However, a much simpler solution would be to just leave...I mean...I've seen what you people look like--you're social outcasts anyway. Go ahead calling me a "conformist" or whatever. We all need a good laugh now and then. So...again, before i go....LEAVE! isn't it much less complicated?
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