Photo from Iraq (Graphic Warning)

Hi, my god these are horrific. Thanks for these pictures because they certainly aren't appearing on t.v..
I've been searching for such pictures for a short while now in order to convince skeptics of civilian casualties. Can you please post the links to where you found these? Context of the photos? Otherwise very few will be convinced of the damage that U.S. bombing is causing.

My friend referred me to a war forum which contains these photos and in that forum it says the orginal source is from aljazeera exclusive, an arabic radio network (similar to cnn in the US) in the middle east.

I searched on google and found the following page:

http://www.aljazeera.net/news/arabic/2003/3/3-23-10.htm

it contains some of the photos shown above. But the website is in arabic, so you may need somebody who knows arabic to translate.

Thanks.

http://www.yellowtimes.com

some debate too over here

http://la.indymedia.org/news/2003/03/39140.php

We're in a war here. Unfortunate things happen. But something just doesnt appear right with those last 3 pics. How can there be scalp left, with no bone matter whatsoever, and no blood?

Was is war...it is deadly and brutal. It sucks...but to let Iraq continue it's deadly snowball of spitting out terrorists and creating weapons of mass destruction to hurt the world is unjust and had to be put to an end. Simple as that....Sadam and his regime needed to be stopped. We are doing that right now and will continue to do so until we accomplish our mission. In the end you will see more pictures of death and destruction..that is only to be expected. But in the end, this world will be a more peaceful place because of what we did in Operation Iraqi Freedom

Was is war...it is deadly and brutal. It sucks...but to let Iraq continue it's deadly snowball of spitting out terrorists and creating weapons of mass destruction to hurt the world is unjust and had to be put to an end. Simple as that....Sadam and his regime needed to be stopped. We are doing that right now and will continue to do so until we accomplish our mission. In the end you will see more pictures of death and destruction..that is only to be expected. But in the end, this world will be a more peaceful place because of what we did in Operation Iraqi Freedom

The last three pictures are obviously fake. There's no blood- it looks like a torn up mask.

WHAQ IRAQ
It is great to see some dead Iraquis! The way I see it, it is better to kill thousands of innocent iraquis than to have one American die since, after all, there are very few "innocent" Iraquis. Everyone of those cowardly bastards is going to cry about the supposedly "innocent" lives that are being taken over there but they are surrounding military targets with women and children, and dressing like civillians to get close to American millitary forces then attacking. As I see it, we should just nuke all of those useless bastards and be done with them.

I THOUGHT THE WAR WAS TO LIBARATE IRAQ!!! IS THIS LEBARATION OF IRAQ OR MAN SLAUGHTER???
AMERICA IS FULL OF AROGANCE EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT...
IF THEY WANT TO LEBARATE IRAQ FIRST THEY MUST MAKE SURE THE THE CONFLICT IN PALESTINE IS OVER FOR THEM TO ADVANCE TO LIBARATION...

These Iraqi bastards have captured and shot our men, paraded their photos with bullet holes through their heads on their State television channels, and we should feel bad about their casualties? I don't think so. I think the US military needs to STOP following 'rules' of conduct and 'Geneva convention' and blow them off the map, they are using their OWN women and children for shields..waving a white flag and setting up our men to be killed. The Iraqi Army is not playing by rulesm neither should we.

These Iraqi bastards have captured and shot our men, paraded their photos with bullet holes through their heads on their State television channels, and we should feel bad about their casualties? I don't think so. I think the US military needs to STOP following 'rules' of conduct and 'Geneva convention' and blow them off the map, they are using their OWN women and children for shields..waving a white flag and setting up our men to be killed. The Iraqi Army is not playing by rulesm neither should we.

These Iraqi bastards have captured and shot our men, paraded their photos with bullet holes through their heads on their State television channels, and we should feel bad about their casualties? I don't think so. I think the US military needs to STOP following 'rules' of conduct and 'Geneva convention' and blow them off the map, they are using their OWN women and children for shields..waving a white flag and setting up our men to be killed. The Iraqi Army is not playing by rulesm neither should we.

I THOUGHT THE WAR WAS TO LIBARATE IRAQ!!! IS THIS LEBARATION OF IRAQ OR MAN SLAUGHTER???
AMERICA IS FULL OF AROGANCE EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT...
IF THEY WANT TO LEBARATE IRAQ FIRST THEY MUST MAKE SURE THE THE CONFLICT IN PALESTINE IS OVER FOR THEM TO ADVANCE TO LIBARATION...

WHOSE WAR IS THE US FIGHTING. IT IS BAD AS IT IS WITHOUT WAR. WHY CREATE CHAOS AND MISERY FOR THE PEOPLE OF IRAQ. GOD SAVE THIS WORLD FROM SUPER POWERS AND THEIR ARROGANCE. SHAME TO UN. IT DOES NOT A RIGHT TO EXIST ANYMORE.

HI i'm White and british.
While typing this message in a college in the uk,i sit next to a very polite and wonderfull person from IRAQ,
I feel after reading your comments( mr clit)We in England should actually turn our nukes and point them at the usa.
yours,
A person of the world, not a person with head up own ass ; )

There are two questions that are being asked in relation to this conflict.

1. Why has America invaded Iraq?
2. What will happen if America succeeds?

There is no logical reason for this invasion. The weapons inspectors did not find any WMD, the invading forces have not found any WMD, and Saddam Hussein has not used any WMD. If ever Saddam needed an excuse to use them, he certainly has one now, but they haven't been used, probably because he genuinely doesn't have any?

If he doesn't have any, then why are children who weren't even born when the last Gulf War happened, being slaughtered by the United States of America?

If America succeeds in overthrowing Saddam, then what? Will the world become a safer place? No it won't. There are no links between Iraq and terrorism, they haven't attacked anyone for many years, have openly destroyed their defences , and left themselves wide open to an invasion. If Saddam has been supporting terrorism , then those cells are already in place and could happily wait weeks, months or years before striking back. They have all the time in the world, and our lives will never be the same again.

Thanks America, now tell us all once again that this is not about oil?

To those complaining about the absence of images of American POWs or dead - I say, upload them! Everyone should witness what George Bush has wrought: The deaths and maiming of Iraqis AND Americans in this useless, unnecessary war. Hussein had been contained for 12 years, and his ability to wage war had *diminished* during that time. No links to terrorists have ever been established by the US government, and no evidence of the existence weapons of mass destruction has been uncovered. Wake up and smell the truth - this is about the raw pursuit of US hegemony over the Middle East.

As a Canadian, I'm thankful that Jean Chretien has lamented that the UN was shut out of the process, and has kept my country out of this insane, murderous spree.

These Iraqi bastards have captured and shot our men, paraded their photos with bullet holes through their heads on their State television channels, and we should feel bad about their casualties?

Please bear in mind that US television showed footage of killed Iraqi soldiers 2 as soon as Friday (a matter of availability, I guess) and that there is this picture from al-Faw or Umm Qasr showing Iraqi soldiewrs who wanted to surrender and were shot by the British. Please also bear in mind the comment of a (non-embedded, natch) correspondent in Baghdad: "The Iraqi propaganda hides well half of the truth, but there is no truth to be found anywhere in the Coalition propaganda. These guys lie every time they open their mouth.".
So, if you believe the Iraqi-soliders-waving-white-flags-to-shoot-our-troops-later propaganda BS straight from the Pentagon's lie factories, I have some nice piece of real estate near Basra to sell to you - only marginal radioactivity courtesy of the liberal employment of DU ammo by Coalition forces in '91 and now.

propably they got the skull mask from the State Skull Mask factory in Sulaymanya, which has started to churn them out in thousands, each tailor-made to fit the body of some Kurdish kid which they precisely know will die in Coalition missile strikes.

Get actual. These guys are peasants, more or less. They do not know much of the ways of PsyOps. And then, these pictures were taken deep in Kurdish territory (mentioned Sulaymanya, to be exact), where no Saddam gov't official has dared to set foot in the last 5 years or so. Check your facts.

Oh, facts: the dead are Kurdisch, victims of an US missile attack . The injured are from Basra.

The 40-missile Tomahawk attack was directed on the Kurdish villages of Qhormal, Biyare and Sargat. Google for these names on Google news and you will come across the rationale behind the attack: these people were killed because their relatives and acquaintances were Ansar al-Islam suspects. The coalition obliterates 3 villages because some folks there knew or were relatied to some Islamist fanatics.
As much as I hate to say it, but I can only say: Nazi methods. Anyone remember Oradour-sur-Glane?

Funny... I always thought Saddam was munafiq himself.

I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE SUCH HYPOCRITES. INSHALLAH 'ALLAH' WILL SOON SEND SOME AID FOR THE MUSLIMS. DON'T LOOSE HOPE YET BECAUSE THERE IS ONE THING WHICH WE HAVE AND THEY DON'T AND THAT IS FAITH-FAITH AND MORE FAITH. MAY ALLAH MAKE THE MUSLIMS VICTORIUS INSHALLAH. AMEEN.

I am not Muslim, neither Christian, nor any other religion or belief myself. I guess it is just a question of good and bad - take any major religion, and you'll find a code of conduct that essentially defines 'good' and 'bad' along similar lines. Take the Quran, the Bible, the Torah, the fine details differ, but when it comes down to basic terms, they agree: killing people that have done you no harm is bad. Bad, bad, bad.
Now, if you institutionalize killing people that have done you no harm, if you belittle their suffering, if you, even, do claim that these foul acts are committed in the name of God, what does it make you?

Shaytan. Claiming to do his deeds in the name of God was always his favorite tool.

A few points
1 ----I hang my head in shame when I realize Canada is not supporting out friends

2---- You Americans who protest your own Armed forces should be slapped. Hang your heads and Hide you faces....These people are fighting for you..... wake up....

3--- If Sadam released 1 WMD you would be screaming for your government to take action before Iraq attacted the USA.... We Know he has them...should we wait until thousands are killed?

4---President Bush...You do what you feel you must...Stay the course.... God Bless you and all the troops standing up for freedom, American, Brits and Aussi alike.

A few points
1 ----I hang my head in shame when I realize Canada is not supporting out friends

2---- You Americans who protest your own Armed forces should be slapped. Hang your heads and Hide you faces....These people are fighting for you..... wake up....

3--- If Sadam released 1 WMD you would be screaming for your government to take action before Iraq attacted the USA.... We Know he has them...should we wait until thousands are killed?

4---President Bush...You do what you feel you must...Stay the course.... God Bless you and all the troops standing up for freedom, American, Brits and Aussi alike.

A few points
1 ----I hang my head in shame when I realize Canada is not supporting our friends

2---- You Americans who protest your own Armed forces should be slapped. Hang your heads and hide your faces....These people are fighting for you..... wake up....

3--- If Sadam released 1 WMD you would be screaming for your government to take action before Iraq attacted the USA.... We know he has them...should we wait until thousands are killed?

4---President Bush...You do what you feel you must...Stay the course.... God Bless you and all the troops standing for freedom, American, Brits and Aussi alike.

5--- I agree the photo's are disturbing but that is part of War and I DON'T MEAN TO SOUND LIKE THEY DON'T BOTHER ME. If any one of you had visions, or thought, war was anything else, you need to get in touch with the real world. There has never been a war with out these kinds of casualties.

6---As for the three countries who have turned their Backs on the USA, Remember when you needed the Amercans? Oh was that so long ago you have forgotten????

A few points
1 ----I hang my head in shame when I realize Canada is not supporting our friends

2---- You Americans who protest your own Armed forces should be slapped. Hang your heads and hide your faces....These people are fighting for you..... wake up....

3--- If Sadam released 1 WMD you would be screaming for your government to take action before Iraq attacted the USA.... We know he has them...should we wait until thousands are killed?

4---President Bush...You do what you feel you must...Stay the course.... God Bless you and all the troops standing for freedom, American, Brits and Aussi alike.

5--- I agree the photo's are disturbing but that is part of War and I DON'T MEAN TO SOUND LIKE THEY DON'T BOTHER ME. If any one of you had visions, or thought, war was anything else, you need to get in touch with the real world. There has never been a war with out these kinds of casualties.

6---As for the three countries who have turned their Backs on the USA, Remember when you needed the Amercans? Oh was that so long ago you have forgotten????

I think that if my French Canadian father could see this now, he would be angrier than hell. He volunteered to fight the nazis in Les REgiment de Trois Rivieres as part of Montgomery's Eight Armoured which drove the nazis out of N. Africa, Rome, Paris and Holland. And he would also be angry that the nation who supplied funding, Ford Motor Company built tanks and trucks and much funding(see prescott bush and Union Bank of NYC) for Hitler and the nazis would be still at it more than 50 years later.

I am shocked and appalled as well.

Steven of Ottawa, Canada

I think that if my French Canadian father could see this now, he would be angrier than hell. He volunteered to fight the nazis in Les REgiment de Trois Rivieres as part of Montgomery's Eight Armoured which drove the nazis out of N. Africa, Rome, Paris and Holland. And he would also be angry that the nation who supplied funding, Ford Motor Company built tanks and trucks and much funding(see prescott bush and Union Bank of NYC) for Hitler and the nazis would be still at it more than 50 years later.

I am shocked and appalled as well.

Steven of Ottawa, Canada

What the hell are those US are doing to those unarmed people? Totally inhuman.

Check out this eDonkey link for Donald Rumsfeld explaining why the US intends to use WMDs in its next wars (read: 'this war') if and when they find it convenient:

ed2k://|file|20020305_donald_rumsfeld_announces_use_of_chemical_weapons_by_usa.rm|200344540|84e20606f340178f6c043e0f9005f682| /

What the fuck do you guys expect. I hate to tell you, this is war.

No matter on what purpose, war still bring disaster to mankind. Mr Bush and his people are tremendously stupid to think that terrorism can be stopped by declaring war against Iraq. This war is actually contribute to the growth of terrorism and anti-american sentiment to the people of arab and the muslims. Even if Saddam is dead or even when the earth of Iraq is burst into dust, this kind of sentiment will arrouse among them. And the people of America should be aware that more of the Sept 11 tragedy will be repeated soon as a result of the dumb action taken by the leader. The terrorists are actually can be every where not in Iraq only. I'm neither muslim nor american, and this is what i think when Mr. Bush declared the war without the mandate by UN. The action of unilateral here will create more and more act of terrosrism in the future, believe me.

War IS war. Nobody dead looks pretty. The willingness of people to incite hatred and vengence rarely seems to take the costs in account. Appeasment of violent people has never in the history of the world brought violence and oppression to an end. Wars against tyrants are just... and since tyrants rarely have the welfare of their own people in their hearts, their people suffer. The cost of fighting tryrants is one that has to paid... with firmness and resolve which might discourage future tyrants.

innocent ppl killed by psychotic and maniac 'WORLD LEADERS' <-- (is it?!!!) crazy thought!!! don't u think that Bush is crazy!!! FUCK HIM!!!

No matter on what purpose, war still bring disaster to mankind. Mr Bush and his people are tremendously stupid to think that terrorism can be stopped by declaring war against Iraq. This war is actually contribute to the growth of terrorism and anti-american sentiment to the people of arab and the muslims. Even if Saddam is dead or even when the earth of Iraq is burst into dust, this kind of sentiment will arrouse among them. And the people of America should be aware that more of the Sept 11 tragedy will be repeated soon as a result of the dumb action taken by the leader. The terrorists are actually can be every where not in Iraq only. I'm neither muslim nor american, and this is what i think when Mr. Bush declared the war without the mandate by UN. The action of unilateral here will create more and more act of terrosrism in the future, believe me.

war is a terrible, ugly thing, and it breaks my heart to see innocent civilians lying dead.

what no one is showing--and it disappoints me, as i've always considered indymedia to be a superior news source--is the footage of american POWs killed by iraqi soldiers. as if their suffering and death is somehow not as valid. i'm no lover of king george and his policies, but to deliberately not even mention the deaths of these kids--who were not killers but mechanics--is sad.

Oh please...would u like your religion to be described in such manner just because a fraction of believers misuses it? PLEASE OPEN your mind...

so much for "according to the geneva convention."

how would u feel Mr. F.....g Canadian if whats happening to ppl out there in Iraq happened to u or any of ur family members. Yes make no mistake about it its not a war against a regime as that Bastard Bush has been saying, it s a war against Islam and mulims. But it wont be long before Allah will rain down terror on who ever is responsible for it. Americans as a whole are a great nation who are really loving and considerate, but they are led by a man whose real pace is right bertween the legs as he name suggests.

Hello. To all those that say 'serves those bastards right', here's a little reminder:

CHECK FACTS FIRST, OPEN MOUTH LATER

Why, you ask?

BECAUSE THESE DEAD PEOPLE WERE KURDS. BECAUSE THESE DEAD PEOPLE WERE OUR ALLIES.

You suckers.

Wanna know more (this particular group - Komala - is NOT our ally anymore. Who can blame them...)?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,920570,00.html

War is Not war! It''s a shame that we had to go through all this to make a point. The poor innocnt people ho hd absolutley nothing to do ith this. I my heart nd prayers go out to all of them.

Everybody knows that the Iraqis themselves killed and mangled all these people, and then fed the photos to the totally stupid press people on their side.

just like these http://www.aeronautics.ru/img/img006/iraq_kia_coalition_00001.jpg Iraqi soldiers, after having been shot by the British, were resurrected by Saddam himself in a Voodoo ritual to build a white flag and prep it up next to them.

re: Good American Citizen: Are you aware of the fact that, as 80% of the world's population knows, the 'reports' of your government 'proving' the existence of Iraqi WMDs were nearly at once determined to be crude fabrications?

No?

Thought so.

Go to sleep, Good Citizen, lest you might hear the Mind Police...


Oh, and btw: Why on earth did they choose BLACK uniforms for the Homeland Security guards? Do they WANT to provoke a comparison with the SS at all cost?

In 20 years at most, the world will call GW Bush the Hitler of the 21st century.

You disagree?

Read this: ed2k://|file|20030109_USA-PATRIOT_II_Act_draft_(CLASSIFIED).rar|11761787|ff3455ca1f0ddce2a52d1b94127138eb|/

Everybody in YOUR shitty little country maybe... or maybe not. I guess, the 2.000-some peaceful protesters who were interned by your local Gestapo this weekend see things differently.

Then again, they can think, whereas you can just repeat the long-exposed lies of the fascists who hijacked your elections and democracy to grow even fatter, while starving your country and ruining its economy.

Go ahead. 5 more years of Dubya, and you will be as poor as Brazil. And don't you come whining to us, you sissies. Get a life.

Or as you seem to like watching TV, you might try the exposé by BBC on the 2000 Presidential elections in Florida. It details how Jeb Bush paid big bucks to have voters from pro-Gore precincts struck from the voter's lists.

Oops, I forgot: the documentary was banned in the USA on request of your 'president'. Ain't freedom of speech grand, or what?

If you are not totally history-impaired, you might be aware of the fact that even the elections that brought Hitler to power were less screwed-up than the 2000 Presidential ones.

Guys like you and the Taliban, once having settled the religious issues, would have been great buddies.

http://www.honaweb.com/bush

http://english.aljazeera.net/

Why can't we just take that war-loving mongrol, Bush of course, and put him in the ring with the equally patheticand equally facist murderer Saddam and let them duke it out. That way the blue-collared patriots of the "mighty stars and sripes" can all go and watch their beloved drooling Texan president get roughed up instead of standing behind his bodygaurds and letting his poor patriots take a broom up the bum.

Oh, and that thing about Canada not joining the war?
What about WW2. Well of course your text books dont teach you this, but the U.S sat on the fence, selling ford engines to Hitler until Pearl Harbour got bombed. Only then did you HELP win the war, opposed to you being the glorious victors.

one more thing. I'd like to take the liberty of reminding the yankees that CANADIAN TROOPS BURNT DOWN YOUR WHITE HOUSE IN 1812.

If you compare the same photos from multiple sites. Then look up who owns these sites. You should be able to see for yourself. One is saying that they are photos of "inocent people" then another says that they are American soldiers. http://www.betterwhois.com/bwhois.cgi?domain=honaweb.com&x=45&y=13

for the love of god, we need to stop this

This is horrifying. We must stop it!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;?xml=/news/2003/03/26/war26.xml&sSheet=/portal/2003/03/26/ixportaltop.html

Thankyou for the pictures. This is totally horrfic. None of these people asked for a war and yet they are the ones tht are being injured. Please support them by helping orgamizations such as AI. It only takes a few mins and can make all the differnce.

A point to remember here: the rest of the world sees Canadians and Americans both as "North Americans" and, I'm afraid, tars you all with the same brush.

Although I think Canada is certainly more of a democracy than the US - any American who calls his/her country a free and democratic country obviously has never read anything other than the state-controlled propaganda the Bush Govt administers.

Please, Americans, wake up and see what you are doing. Please stop being so greed-driven, imperialistic, and thoroughly stupid. You're a young country and we're all (from Europe) watching you make the mistakes we made earlier, and is it making us all shudder, and I think even Hitler is turning in his grave at the thought of your President.

Man is his own enemy ! When will he realize this simple truth?

This latest conflict is a continuation of something that will keep going on and on.

http://britishhistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa031803a.htm

Lovely use of exclamation points!!!!!!!!!

You don't feel strongly, do you???????

The US is the agrressor and you're blaming Iraq? Where is the evidence of links to al-Qaeda? None. Where is the evidence of sponsorship of terrorism? None. Where is the evidence of weapons of mass destrcution? None. Face it. This is about naked pursuit of political power in the region, and control over the second largest supplier of oil. I can't believe you Americans are so blind, so easily pursuaded by your corporate-sponsored propaganda.

No wonder the world has grown to despise your international bullying and barabrity. Amazing how quickly the goodwill after 9/11 has evaporated.

Enjoy your empire.

A Canadian

Aloha from Hawaii...I am in support of Big Mac's idea that the U.S. shouldnt play fair...Now a days no one plays fair...Why are we holding back on taking over Suddam Hussens Regim? They parade our causities like it was normal, everyday life for them...We have not shot or killed any of their soilders that are in captivity under the U.S. and coalition forces. As far as Hawaii is concern...Most of us here Support our Troops for some of our own family are there.. As we say here..."GO FO Broke!!!!"

Aloha Angel

Holy Cow, Mr. gung-ho marine, you really need to shoot a few less firearms and read a few more books. You are positively the worst advertisement for your country than you can imagine.

When exactly did the US protect Canada? In WWI, we fought for three years, dying in bunches, before the US even deigned to set foot on the battlefield. By the time they did, the war was 6 months from its end. In WWII, we again fought for three years before the US showed up, this time only after being dragged into the war via Pearl Harbour. In the only war before that where both Canadians and Americans were featured, it was the war of 1812 where the US INVADED us. It seems to me that when we haven't been protecting your way of life by proxy in Europe, you've been trying to take ours away from us by force.

You should honestly look up the dictionary meaning of some words:

tyranny
pre-emptive
hegemony
imperialism
hypocrisy

Once you have those down pat, go visit this website:

http://www.newamericancentury.org

Jeb Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz - the gangs all here and they have outlined their plan for world domination. They've been planning this thing for a decade, with Iraq always being step no.1 on the road to ruin. Remember Bush talking about 'unending war'? I hope you took him literally because Syria, Iran and China are next.

Now a knucklehead like you may think that US domination of the world is a good thing, but not everyone thinks that having a Hardees or a McD's on every corner is progress. The reason we Canadians don't get harassed too badly when overseas is because we realize that other cultures have a lot to offer. For many (I would say most) Americans, everything other than the Stars and Stripes is just second rate and your foreign travellers treat people as if this is a truth rather than an opinion.

Oh, but perhaps you are thinking about how 'good' the US is for stepping up to take down a petty dictator. Well, for those of us in the world keeping score:

Dictators Created or supported:

The Shah of Iran, Iran
Prince Sihanouk - Cambodia
Pinochet - Chile
Suharto - Indonesia
Marcos - Phillipines
The first through third Juntas - Argentina
Jimenez - Venezuela
Fujimori - Peru
Mugabe - Zimbabwe
Noriega - Panama
Hussein - Iraq

Oh, I could go on, but there are just too many names that google pops up.

Dictators Removed

Hitler - as part of allies
Mussolini - as part of allies
Papa and Baby Doc Duvalier - unsanctioned invasion
Hussein - still in progress


You've only got another ten or so to go before the US is even. Keep plugging and perhaps by the end of Bush's world domination plan you'll have added a few more to the list.

Your attitude is what makes Americans so darn popular in the world! And if it wasn't for Canada, your country would lose its major supplier of oil. After Paul Celucci (the US ambassador to Canada) yesterday hinted at economic consequences for Canada's lack of support - as a Canadian, I say, turn off the taps and see how the States gets along without our resources.

The US is turning itself into an outlaw, barbarian state thanks to Bush's temper tantrums. As he plunges your country into economic depression, I hope you don't get one red cent out of the rest of the world to rebuild the lives and the infrastructure you are destroying overseas.

Enjoy your empire, you casears of destruction.

Sorry, God left that administration a long time ago, except in their minds.

found this after searching for al jazeera on news.google.com

The Arab satellite television network Al-Jazeera suffered a second day of sustained distributed denial of service (DDOS) attacks against its English and Arabic language Web sites on Wednesday.

The attacks have pushed the network, which is based in Doha, Qatar , off the Web for the time being and forced Al-Jazeera to increase bandwidth for the sites and step up security in a desperate effort to get back online.

"All of our Web sites are down. The U.S. [Web site] is out of order and the Europe [Web site] is under attack. We come up for five or ten minutes and then the attacks bring us down again," said Salah AlSeddiqi, IT manager at Al-Jazeera.

AlSeddiqi and others describe a powerful and coordinated attack on Al-Jazeera's Web sites that began on March 25, shortly after the network published photos of U.S. soldiers who had been taken prisoner by Iraqi forces inside Iraq

How does keeping Saddam in power help to keep the peace? Are innocent Iraqis not dying under Saddam's power? To date, he is guilty of murdering 2 million of his own INNOCENT civilians. If we don't topple the Iraqi regime innocent people are still dying.

You know its funny, Propaganda (and thats all this is propaganda) is always one sided. You either get how horrible American and British and other Troops are, and the plight of Iraqi citizens and people.

then on the other hand we see children with weapons, women with grenades and peopel with signs that say down with America (and htis is before they even went to war).

Where are the pictures of American troops whoa re tortured and killed? guess that would make other thigns seem less shocking.

Its terrible that people have to die and that inocents always pay, but war is terrible and the blood of the inocent paves the way for freedom. never forget that.

i would gladly lay down my lifde for my country, as im sure a lot of Iraqi's will. But when one nation is a threat to another, and yes Iraq is and will always be a threat as long as suddam is in power, one has to make a hard choice. Even now Americans aare uncovering thigns UN expectors couldnt, and they are being fired upon by weapons which Iraq suposedly did not have.

To have a danger to ones loved ones and not do anythign about it would have been the greatest crime of all. So while the americans may not be sin free, they are doing what is right for the world in this case. And i can only hope that my country sends me in so that we too can help make a difference.

By teh way no i am not American, and am a general opposer to most things American, but i do agree that Suddam must be brought down at all costs.

and as for the american missiles, Suddam wouldnt be opposed nor im sure wouldn tbe the first tiem that he has fired upon his own peopel in order to blame the other side and rally his troops.

not everythign that glitters is gold, and not everythign that bleeds is caused by americans.

Its time that the terrorists and threats toworld peace are brought down, that they see that the free world will not tolerate a threat to their safety, to the worlds safety. and that united we stand against a common threat.

that is all i have to say

Jason

Jason, your an idiot.

So you're saying that the Iraqi people, not Saddam, but the people, cannot be victims if they also take up arms when they are invaded? That's wild. Please think that through a little more. They are not attacking, nor did they threaten to. They are attacked and invaded.
Can you imagine that?
Can you feel it?
Would you be evil to protect yourself under those circumstances?
May it never happen to you Jason.
May it never happen to you.

I'd cry...if I wasn't too busy laughing!!! Here's the news kids: there will be civilian casualties; there will be friendly-fire casualties. You crybabies need to realize that your objection was overruled. We ARE at war and you should channel your frustration towards the support of the Country in which YOU CHOOSE TO LIVE. Real simple: our enemy poses a threat to YOUR beloved autonomy. You're so marianated in your sense of entitlement that you've forgotten how these privileges are won. Fuck all of you pussies.

I would first like to say that though it is true we do not know if in fact the pictures we say are cased by Saddom's troops or other troops, what is true though is this; murder is murder plainand simple!

America is a supposed Christian founded nation, how un-Christ-like to call for and be the propagators for bloodsheed, murder and distruction!

THU SHALL NOT KILL/MURDER!

A great internation banker stated once, "I care not who is the King, President, or leader, just give me control of the $$$$$"

To those of you who say it must be done, how well have you done your homework, what do you really know other than what you are told. I work for the media and have spent time serving (sad to say) the US in the military, and I can tell you this this war is over something far more serious than you think. $$$, control of people, and the New World Order, Bush SR. so proudly spoke of!

The US put Saddom in place and sold him the weapons of mass distruction we claim he hase used on his own people, several news reports, from US sources say and have proven that some of the claims made on Saddom using these means to harm his own people were in fact fabricatated.

This war is not about freedom or liberation, it is about occupatiing people and a Country as to have control over the people, country and money! look behind the sence to see who will get the honor of rebuilding that country, the people? No those who control the money call all the shoots!

There's $$$$ to be made on all ends and those in control of the $$$$ control all ends!!!!!

War is politics with blood shed, and in politics all is far in love and war!!!

Much more could be said on this sad topic!

Akili

do you really believe what you are saying? He has terrorist training camps in his country and for that matter they just found a mural of the twin towers painted on their wall with an iraqi plane flying into them. Now weather or not they painted that before or after-if before, then that proves that they had something to do with it and if after, then that proves that Saddam and his regime want to kill innocent americans--niether of which should even be a consideration--wake up and listen to what you are saying--there was an iraqi woman who bent down and kissed one of the marines feet because they view them as heros they don't want to be surpressed anymore and they want their country back from these tyrants! I don't understand where you all get your views but America is right in what they are doing and whether or not you believe that there isn't going to be casulaties in war you are blind! America is the only country that helps people from around the world and I believe that the regular iraqi people are happy and elated that this is going on--You better realize that America is a wonderful country and too many people take that for granted--would you want to be shut up for what you just said by getting your tounge cut out and hung in a square to bleed to death I know that I wouldn't--that is what these people have had to deal with for the past 15 years or longer. They are tired of their own government killing its own citizens. Not all of them are like that--yes some are but come on guys open your eyes to what is the truth. Not everything that you hear is truth! What happened to everyone is equal I think that this fighting about religious beliefs is the stupidist thing that I have ever heard of--we are all people and can have different views and different beliefs otherwise this world would be pretty boring don't you think? Yes there are political secrets hidden from all of us but look what is being done in the middle east by this dictator who acts as though he is a saint. I am sorry but I have a heart and I would rather have America kick some ass and free the people and have a few die than see a whole country controlled by one man.

I also think these pictures look fake. I was thinking the exact same thing, that it looks like some kind of mask.

I agree..war is war. But how I wish the pics are those of Americans :-)

1) The US/CIA helped the B'aath Party to power in coup d'etat in the 60s, funneling it lists of "subversives"--i.e. leftists--that were summarily executed.

2) The US supported Hussein throughout the 80s, granting his regime advanced intelligence, weapons, and credits. In 1989, the US opposed censoring Hussein in the UN for his human rights abuses. Hussein's worst atrocities were commited when he WAS AN ALLY of the US.

3) When its ally crossed a certain line in the sand in 1990 the US ruling class suddenly found religion and became scandalized by Hussein's human rights record. In "Desert Storm", the US dropped depleted uranium munitions on Iraq, deliberately destroyed its water treatment facilities, massacred retreating Iraqi conscripts, and gave Hussein's elite forces carte blanche to smash uprisings against his rule.

4) Hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's have died in the past dozen from the combined force of sanctions, uranium munitions, and the destruction of water facilities.

5) Which brings us, finally, to why THE IRAQI'S AREN'T GREETING THE AMERICANS AS LIBERATORS--despite what you'd like to believe. Many Iraqi's hate the US' former ally, Hussein, with a passion, but that hasn't turned out to be the ace-in-the-hole that Bush and the his plutocratic cronies thought it would be. Iraqi's aren't stupid: they know, far better than you apparently, that the US ruling class has never been a friend of the Iraqi people. The whirligig of time has its revenges, whatever hyper-patriot fools like you might believe.

As I read these comments I am amazed at a person's ability to see what they want to see and their inabilty to see what they do not want to know about or become cognizant of. Research can give you superior insights on highly publicized media that carries opinions of newspaper owners/ or advertising moguls. When I read comments that are parroting something read in a newspaper or heard on the infamous television I feel acute disappointment that we are so very unaware of what the true stories really are. The less popular authors are generally more accurate, the more media coverage, the less likelyhood of accuracy.

well your face would look pretty much like a mask too if you'd just had your brain blown away...

you state they found a painting of the twin towers with an iraqi plane flying into them.
1. the closest i have read to anything like this is a picture of the twin towers found in a barber shop with a plane sticker on it.
2. individual taste is not representative of a country. if someone invaded america and took over a paedophiles house and found a picture of a molested child, they should construe that all americans or that the government supports child molestation.

As I have been reading the many comments about the war in Iraq, It amazes me to think that people who support BUSH and his war mongering policies can view this as a just cause for "freedom and peace".

The U.S Government has blinded it's own people from the holocaust that will rain on them within the next 16 years.

My warning is to the gullible & innocent US people who will suffer immensely because of what BUSH has started. Now don’t get me wrong here - I represent no religion or faith, No government body or political party, nor am I a vigilante nor do I represent any vigilante body. And am certainly not a self proclaimed guru or prophet or activist.

I am on neither side of the current Iraq conflict but I regret to inform Americans of the chain of events this war has started that will eventually reach the US in a devastating blow to not only it's economy, but security, political system, the deaths of millions of American people. And the final collapse of the UNITED STATES of AMERICA.

Even though what I have stated above might seem very apocalyptic to a degree, Nevertheless - the warning signs were there since the end of World War II.

I have been studying the US war tactics and the strong propaganda medium it has imposed on all westernised nations for the last 50 years and for the last 10 years I have viewed the way the US works it’s PR to the world and especially it’s own people in order to gain public opinion – I have seen much and know a lot - enough to see where the US future is heading.

For those people’s history that may be a little foggy at the moment regarding America’s war on the world, let’s look where it all began, After WWII – America had a new enemy “Communism” and why shouldn’t it be, as far as the US was concerned (to put it in a nut shell) the USSR and it’s political system represented a non religious, aggressive, and most of all - an “anti capitalist” regime (I have lived in an ex communist country and know that for a fact that the US lied much about the USSR and (other communist nations) in the way that Russia handled things via its economy, politics and life style between 1947 to 1980, but nevertheless – I did not agree with many of Russia’s policy’s during this era), They (USSR) had invaded many country’s during it’s reign and non more known now than the “Russian-Afghan” war that the US supported 100% with arms and technical equipment to the Afghans to which Russia eventually withdrew it’s forces and lost this conflict.

Sure – the world viewed this through the media and saw what America wanted the world to see “Democracy & freedom” winning, hence not only was public opinion on the US side, but it gained international opinion on it’s side as well. This for the American’s was a blessing like no other and this had opened their eyes to new ways to show the world harmlessly through this medium that America would become and stay as the super-power of the world as they had just come out of a devastating blow in the Vietnam war to which America Invaded after the French delegation ceased diplomacy and operations in Vietnam.

The US for the last 20 to 30 years have demonstrated an arrogance to this control and therefore this allowed the US to impose a very aggressive stance to it’s foreign policies through-out the world and at the same time maintaining a tight grip of control over it’s own population, after all – “what American’s don’t know - they are free” and “what Americans do know – they are judged”, what I mean to say is that the US government has shown that democracy is the way of the free when in reality it is free when you don’t know the truth and when you do, you are silenced, restricted, imprisoned or killed if you know or release the truth the US image or Government in any way.

Many might argue about my comment but how many times have we all heard the same statement over and over and over again – “It is in the INTEREST of NATIONAL SECURITY” a statement that acts as a very strong link to controlling patriotism and expands out to gaining public opinion.

So the more ignorant the Americans are maintained about what is happening outside the US, the more the support the US government will get for it’s present and future wars.

And if you cannot see the truth to what is happening around the world because of America’s war mongering and world domination by democracy & freedom tactics – Just remember that every one in America pre judged by media and blamed Arab and Islamic terrorism for the Oklahoma bombing in the 90’s only to there disbelief that in fact it was an American ex serviceman who committed the act “Timothy McVey” – A man who new the truth and got revenge on it’s own government for what the FBI committed and covered in the Waco Texas massacre to which we now know was genocide committed by the US Government to it’s own people and Timothy payed with his life and viewed via the media to the public as if to show everyone that this was a warning to any other American who would commit a similar crime.

What the US Government did to Timothy by showing his death via a live coverage can be compared to what the English did for centuries by executing their enemy’s in an awful public display to show who is more superior.

There have been many occurrences similar to this and with continuous corruption of other nations politicians to destabilise it’s country’s political and economical status and if this does not work, the US Government conducts covert operations and should this fail, they cleverly construct a strong Public Relations (PR) campaign together with plans to oust that country’s Government by force of war.

If your wondering what all this has to do with the IRAQ conflict, its simple – what America wants – they will kill for it, even if it means genocide of millions of people in that country (and then via the media and PR calling it “LIBERATION”) and in this case it’s “OIL” – for the US has 15 to 30 years of oil left for it’s people and must attain another large oil reserve to sustain the American’s way of life (remembering they are the largest resource consumers in the world) and they are not about to give it up for anything.

It is this very greed (or as you may “GLOBALISATION”) that will bring America’s downfall to which has started already and with no thanks to Wolfowitz’s policy of “PRE-EMPTIVE [nuclear] STRIKE” that BUSH has adopted to its foreign policy control.

Thanks to communications, the world has been able to judge from a 2 view perspective on the IRAQ crises and more than ever now has seen the reality and truth to what this war is about. It is not about Saddam Hussein or it’s supposed “weapons of mass destruction”, but for control of the Middle East as it is the world’s largest supplier of oil and if you control this, you control it’s monopoly and the way you manipulate world politics and economy – a deadly combination as this will surely bring it’s manipulators regime to a disastrous end, in this case – the USA.

What America has started, they will now not see the end – even if they win this war against IRAQ (looking very doubtful at the moment), the after math will be devastating because this will become a “domino affect” in which the USA will see this as a win and continue to use it’s “PRE-EMPTIVE” strike policy for the other nations it says it currently has no intent to impose – Syria, Iran, Saudi-Arabia, Palestinia, possible proposals against Jordan, Turkey, Egypt and of coarse “North-Korea” which as we know the US can not possibly win and if they push for this – it will only accelerate America’s demise and destruction.

Why do you think the US has not started war against North Korea as North-Korea is the one with the nuclear weapons and not IRAQ – “OIL!” that’s right, IRAQ has the OIL deposits and North-Korea does not.

And should a show down come between North-Korea and the USA, North-Korea can be fully justified to use it’s Nuclear missile capabilities because after all – it was the BUSH administration who has already verbally declared war against North-Korea in late 2002 by stating it was one of the many countries it considered a “PRE-EMPTIVE NUCLEAR STRIKE”. Other country’s that was also considered was RUSSIA, CHINA, IRAN, SYRIA, CUBA and because of world outrage to this comment, the list was shortened to include IRAN, IRAQ, NORTH KOREA and CUBA.

It is know wonder why the USA has become more isolated to its views of the way the world should be amongst the International community.

These so called “AXIS of EVIL” nations that BUSH has stated have every right to hold Nuclear weapons in it’s arsenal as it maintains there own national security and sovereignty against a greater threat “USA”. Sad as it may seem but this is the reality and if you can not see this as for what it is, never forget that it was the USA that launched the only nuclear attack in human history against the sovereignty of another state and human being’s – “JAPAN” in 1945, yet the worst thing about this attack was that there were three nuclear attacks and all were within a non-militarised areas and till date, the American military are taught that this was a great victory – the death of almost 450,000 human beings.

This was NEVER justice nor is the current IRAQ conflict where thousands, hundreds of thousands or millions of civilians will die. Nevertheless we cannot forget the hundreds of thousands that died in the IRAN/IRAQ conflict in the eighties that America supported IRAQ with Money and Weapons and when Saddam ceased to agree with American terms, the US looked for an opportunity to take IRAQ out, this moment of opportunity eventually came when IRAQ invaded Kuwait.

Never forget that it was the USA that started, accelerated or pushed for more conflicts and wars after the end of World-War II in which it resulted the death of millions of people world wide – to just name a few:

1.Korean war
2. Vietnam War
3. Gulf war (early nineties)
4. Chilean revolution
5. Guatemala
6. Indonesia conflict in the late seventies
7. Panamanian war
8. Cold war with Soviet Union
9. Afghanistan during the cold war
10. Afghanistan in 2002
11. Iran/Iraq war (The U.S supported IRAQ)
12. Israel/Palestinian conflict
13. Yugoslavia break-up that killed hundreds of thousands of people

So what we are seeing today in the media is only what America wants the world too see (BBC, CNN, NBC and other American manipulated coverage) and it is thanks to Aljazeera network that the world will see the truth and finally judge the USA for the Illegal Invasion and genocide of what we could possibly see as millions of civilians.

Now I know those who support America probably think I am on the Arabs side because I agree with the Aljazeera Networks broadcast of the IRAQ war and have a bias view, but don’t forget that it was the Aljazeera Web site that was hacked recently by an American (possible Government) person/s and displayed the typical propaganda that the US would want the ARABS to believe - the USA map covered with the American flag and very American patriotic statement.

Whether this was a hackers revenge for what he believes about this conflict or not, the very fact cannot be denied that these are basic propaganda scare and support tactics the US Government has used till date within Iraq, targeting not only the Iraq Republican Guards and army but Iraq’s populace as well to which has now backfired because as every one around the world knows – the Iraqi People know the truth that America invaded Iraq for OIL and strategic positioning.

This is something that will now cost America deeply for years to come until the American Regime collapses and if you do not want to believe it, the United States has more enemy’s world wide now than it has ever had in it’s history and growing as every day passes with the invasion of IRAQ.

Folks, anyone out there who do not know this http://www.aeronautics.ru/news/news002/news069.htm yet? This server has gained considerable popularity, so if it is unavailable, just try again later. They have at least 1 report per day.

The WTC mural - hey, big deal. Lots of folks in Iraq cheered on 9-11. Some obviously painted murals. 9-11-exploitation candy bags, T-shirts and such stuff are big sellers in Pakistan and Malaysia. What does it prove? Nada. I myself have a printout of a hi-res aerial camera pic of the WTC site around Sep 15th or so on my wall. Duh. Seems the chain-of-'evidence' some folks here construct would prove I masterminded that attack myself.

Next thing - 'Iraqi chemsuits/gasmasks' as seen e.g. on M$NBC. Here http://de.indymedia.org/2003/03/47170.shtml is an article (in German) from a guy who has some experience with military equipment and recognized these things (primitive NATO-style gas masks, probably of UK manufacture, without filters - useless).

To those who still support that war: we'll talk again in10 years' time. The Coalition will loose; even if they can take Baghdad, they cannot hold their prizes. Iraq will be either another Vietnam or the US' Afghanistan. And you know what happened to the USSR after the Afghan War did its part to destroy their confidence in themselves, and by redistributing money to the military that was urgently needed elsewhere, to destroy their economy, and in the long run, the country?


Oh, BTW: an overwhelming majority of Iraqi civilians does not want to be liberated this way. This holds true for most Central Iraqis, but also for most Shia (southern) Iraqis and for an increasing proportion of Kurds.

Memo to Coalition: Ansar al-Islam or not - bombing Halabja was NOT a good idea. The folks there get a little jittery when the bombs fall (last time they did, they spewed nerve gas) and tend to get mad at people who lob bombs at them. And when Peshmerga get mad, Coalition soldiers will die. So much for the 'Northern Front'.

Oh, BTW: the Northern Front existed from Day 1. It was chosen not to make that public, because the 101st Airborne got itself a little bit bloodied while trying to attack Kirkuk for one whole week, but failed miserably each time. They didn't even get close.

Now, the 101st was thrown to the Southern Front (as they had to commit even the Command Reserve forces there) and got replaced by the 82nd and the 173rd. 'Northern Front', big deal.

I hope none of you have friends or relatives at the following units:

3rd Infantry
7th Cavallery
Marine forces at an-Nasiriyah, especially the MEF that has crossed the Euphrates.

Several platoons of 3ID and 7Cav got wiped out during the sand storm, intercepted communication reveals. As of yesterday, 600 Coalition troops and 4 complete US scout platoons were still MIA.

The 'friendly fire' incident with that convoy some days ago caused 50 dead and injured. It was not just an artillery strike, but also a strafing run by 2 A-10 attack planes. These beasts use DU shells for their 30mm Gatling guns. designed to knock out armored vehicles.

Can you say 'Gulf War Syndrome, anyone'?

God receive the souls of all who have died
and teleport home today all soldiers
.. awaken fountains in the desert to give
water to Basra..

Give mercy to all beings.. awaken fountains
in all hearts.. fountains of mercy

http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0212/pt03.html

http://www.honaweb.com/bush

Evil (America),
Please stop your war from the world. Please stop using the name of Jesus Christ.
I hope wise and love and rightesous will be given to you.
God bless you.
no_wait

Thank you very much for showing the world the other side of the war that CNN and BBC and folks are covering-up all the time.

In the 1980's when Saddam Hussein was an American ally, when the United States supported Iraq in its war against Iran, Iraq ordered pathogen samples from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, saying it needed them for legitimate medical research. The transfers were detailed in a 1994 Senate Banking Committee report and a 1995 follow-up letter from the CDC to the Senate. The exports were legal at the time and approved under a program administered by the Commerce Department.

After, the United States was supplying Iraq with money and the precursor germs for manufacturing bioweapons. 20 Years later, the US started using the possession of bioweapons as an argument to act against Saddam Hussein and against invented socalled terrorists. Also, in Baghdad in 1990, a group of British technicians seconded to the Iraqi government's top-secret weapons manufacturing group, had been sent by MI-6, British intelligence, and by the British Ministry of Defense in order to weaponize the germs for Anthrax, Q-fever (Coxiella Burnetii), Botulism, and Tularemia. All bio stuff that isn't really good for people's health. These germs have been gotten from the United States.

World War 1, 2 and 3 have been planned over a century ago. It is all a lose-lose situation. Any conqueror is a loser. Victory is merely the illusion that the overall quality of life on planet Earth would have been improved.

How the fuck can all these god damn traders rally against the troops. They make me fucking sick. I'm all for the war in Iraq even though I'm on 16 i wish i was over there fighting side by side wit my brothers and sisters over there. All soldiers that defend this great country are my family, and these fucking people that protest are nothin more then fuckin traders that should be lined up and shot. They dont deserve to live in United States. I will personaly spit on every protester I see and I might even attack sum if it means that they will stop with these acts of treason

All I have to say is that you really show your lack of maturity. You really should learn how to spell and get some counseling because you sound like you have serious issues, little boy.

This is in response to the previous comment-u know the one about anti-war protestors being lined up and shot. I dont even know why I am even repsonding to such an idiotic comment-perhaps its because I hope some words can penetrate that darkness enveloping that poor soul that wrote those hateful comments. Anti-war protestors should be commended for rising up against an immoral, illegal war. They support the troops-they want them home. Im sure the troops would rather deal with the protestors than with some jingoistic half-wit. Dissent is patriotic; freedom of speech is American-isnt that, according to people like you, what we're trying to spread with our "liberation"?

Answering to "War is war", dear Miami...so in the future you'll have millions...say millions of new people ready to die in order to defend their territories...thousands of new Twin towers!
Don't forget that this war is only for Oil!!!!!!!!!
Bush, Sheney and Rice , Blair and Aznar are only interested on Oil...this operation should be called "Iraqi oil freedom"!!!!!
Don't believe what they say about Saddam!
The whole muslim world prefer a crazy bastard like Saddam keeping their Oil, to a foreign government controlled by the americans!
Don't forget: democracy and freedom need only patience, dialogue, comprehension...not at all weapons and more deaths.
You see. This war is gonna be lost by the americans because there is a big difference between the parties: the muslim are ready to die ...all of them, the americans not!
Besides: the muslims are defending their territories, the americans are diying without motivations, they are not defending their families, their sons, their future, the muslims are defending their sons and their future.
That's why the muslims are going to win at the end this war, may be not in Iraq, but who knows...with other Twin towers in US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
God save America...Allah save Iraq...all the people of the world deserve to live...not just the americans

NO WAR,no blood for money!!!!

NO WAR,no blood for money!!!!

first of all only ignoret people would say nike them all. and who are you to say nuke them, what u are american, so what. that dosent give you the right to say somthing like this not do it, saying it is a big crime. the big problem is americans think that there life means alot, but if u are not american that u are worth nothing. an animal is worth more than u. this mentality has to change. and those ghetto cowboys need to leave there background at home and act like worls leaders. americans are in this war because bush wanted to finish what his dad started. maybe he is doing all this under his dads supervision. any ways whats going on is the biggest disaster. but they will not win. and u know what, your governement knows that the american people such as u are ignoret so thats y its easy to lie to u guys and say what ever they want you to know. but finally americans are not gonna win this war because it is gonna spread into somthing no one expected. and all utax payers that are paying for bush to be rich, WAKE UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!please.

Do not categorise such pictures as fake when you do not know what u r talking about. This is evidence people look like torn up masks when they are hit by bombs/missiles. War is hell and this proves it. Sometimes you have to see hell to enjoy heaven. The ordinary (powerless) Iraqi people have lived in hell for so many years. Please let them live in freedom! Europe has paid the price for freedom, now the Iraqi's will do the same. I do not object to show such pictures, but I've never seen such sites when saddam was killing his people. The current anti-war, anti-Bush people are ussually absent when it comes to opposing dictators.

Dear americans,
I do really love your country, your way of living, your people...but I'm so sorry for the prsident You chose!
He is the worst president you've ever had.
What he is doing is like to declare war to the Pope John Paul II.

How didn't he (and his administration) did'nt imagine this?
Is right Tommy Franks: this war is like no other war before...stupid man, you are right. It's a war against the whole muslim world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How can all the Bush administration think that the muslim world allows the americans to invade...ops take freedom to the Iraq? It's too dangerous for Iran, Russia, China, Siria...they will never allow it!!!!!!!!!
Are you watching waht is going on in Pakistan, in Indonesia...they are millions...and they are near!
Americans are less and they are too far!!!
And at the and of the day the muslims prefer a muslim dictator who speaks arabic and pray Allah to a west governor who doesn't pray anyone and eats hamburgers.
HOW DON'T THEY UNDESTAND IT?????
Americans the only way to finish this war and to demonstrate to all the world that you really are a democratic and free country is saying to that ignorant and selfish president that you have to go home....you can do that...you schould do that in order to demonstrate that this president doesn't represent the americans!

Good bye...and God bless all the children of the world!

I would have to agree with Sarah in reply to the little mans (Charles F Robinson Jr) view on the Iraq crises. As to why I tend to bother about responding to this future canon fodder meat is beyond me but I believe he should know where his future is heading if he continues with his little "PATRIOTIC TANTRUMS" towards people who are trying to stop America’s genocide.

Mr Charles F Robinson Jr, you obviously have not lived long enough to know what real war is, If you feel strongly about joining your so called “brothers at arms”, then take a trip to your local army recruiting office – join up – then take a trip to a battle field.

There are only 5 ways you can get out, once your deployed into the battlefield.

First is to see your comrades getting shot, bombed, gassed or burnt right in front of you and then run for your freaking fucking life till you reach home base and then endure the same again with hopeful possibilities that you will be relieved by fresh meat incoming GI’s and then go back home only to endure nightmares for the next 60 years of your life.

Secondly is to go A-wall and prey that you don’t get caught by your “Brother at arm” comrades who are ordered to capture you with 20 to 50 years imprisonment by court-martial by your own military’s own jurisdictional policies on this matter – In other words “Kiss your free ass good by!”

Thirdly is to face the enemy in the battle field and fight for your life whilst viewing not only the enemy’s body and limbs being dismembered with guts, brains, genitals, and other organs falling out by bullets and bombs in front of you, but your fellow comrades as well and then go home as a hero with your so called “fellow Americans” blinded by the truth as to what really happened to you, only to face your nightmares of what happened to you in conflict for the rest of your life.

I personally have a friend who fought in the Spanish revolution and till date has the nightmares I described to you above because of what he had to do to stay alive – in other words “He went through hell and back” something I would not recommend you doing unless your mighty gun-ho American patriotic attitude is willing to go through with it.

Fourthly is to change sides upon seeing your mighty military being grinded down like mince meat and becoming a hero in the enemies land by changing sides and preying that nothing will happen to you upon trying to leave the enemies territory and back to your home land, only to the surprise that you will be facing either execution or life imprisonment by treason – remembering that the US is the very country that sent you there in the first place and believes in the so called “justice” and “freedom” – the very blinding terms to its so called “Democracy”.

And Fifth, well, this I think (with your attitude) would suite you very well – right next to your gun-ho comrades in a body bag heading back to US territory and being praised at how amazingly brave you fought and what a hero you “were” and bla – bla – bla to eventually seeing that the only thing you got in return for your life is a piece of shiny medal (not even pure gold with a few diamonds or ruby’s on it – that’s how cheap your government is) with a piece of silky cloth tied around it and given to your mother or father so that they can treasure it in there possession to show how brave their “DEAD” son was in the war.

It amazes me how gullible the American people have become to accepting a piece of medal by their own government in return for the peoples patriotism over the family’s loss of a son, daughter, mother, father, brother or sister.

Personally I prefer my family’s life than over a piece of cheap medal that represents patriotic symbolism in that country.

So if you still are not convinced about what war really is, do the world a favour, take your ignorant pimple-faced gun-ho ass and attitude to your local military recruitment agency, sign up, travel to Iraq and kiss your ass good bye, and if you survive and return back home, good luck with your 60 years worth of nightmares and counselling sessions.

Playing computer games like doom, quake, Half life, counter strike, etc on your computer “little man” is one thing, Facing a fully armed and capable enemy head on and viewing the so called US termed “Human Collateral Damage” is a totally different ball park.

So if you want to as you put it “I will personaly spit on every protester I see and I might even attack sum”, try doing it against a person with a kallishnakov or AK47 instead of unarmed protester that is protesting to stop a bloody war that is bring home on a weekly basis your so called “heroes” in coffins – OOPS! (US economy is worst now and can't afford to many coffins because the US Government is busy spending 27 Billion dollars in weapons to kill people instead) – lets try good old Chinese made plastic body bags (there cheaper).

Oh yeah, by the way - Lush Rimbaugh is right, go back to school cause you can’t spell little man!

USA, UK, SPANYOL, JAPAN, PHILIPINA, AUSTRALIA, PORTUGAL, INDIA, SOUTH KOREA . All Of you should go to kiss my ass as fucking as blady shiiiiit , ass hole

Being Canadian, I wasn't aware that dissent was against the law in the US. Boy, you folks run a tight ship down there! We have something in our country called "democracy" and "free speech" and we prosecute people for "hate crimes" - such as attacking those who disagree with government policy.

Is it wrong in your country to oppose government policy? Is it "traderous" to protest your country's overseas military activity? You may be interested in knowing that this happens in other countries - such as my own - and people aren't accused of being traitors.

The only country with the word "patriotic" in their lexicon is the US. I don't know what it means, but I think it means bleating like a sheep and endorsing government policy unquestioningly.

Trust me, decmocracy and free thought is so much better! You Americans should try it!

Signed - Sarcastic A-hole.

you arrogent , narrow minded inexplicably hateful excuse of a human being! i take it you are american. well if you cant even value human life then you are a good for nothin worthless peice of shit!

YOU ARE RIGHT!!!!!!!! THIS COUNTRY IS NO LONGER A DEMOCRACY...IT'S A DICTATORSHIP RULED BY THE BUSH REGIME.... WE HAVE LOST OUR RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH AND FREE THOUGHT .... OUR MEDIA IS CAREFULLY CONTROLLED BY THE CONSERVATIVE AND CORPORATE SPECIAL INTERESTS....... AMERICA IS NO LOGER A COUNTRY FOR A BY THE PEOPLE..... AND WE ARE FREE AS LONG AS WE DO WHAT BUSH SAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FIRST OF ALL BUSH IS A BLOOMING IDIOT. WE ALL KNOW THAT THIS WAR IS ABOUT OIL AND THE WEAPONS THE REPUBLICANS SOLD TO THE ASSHOLE SADAAM DURING THE REAGAN YEARS. BUSH IS LEADING US ALL (NOT JUST AMERICA) TO THE BRINK OF A WORLD CONFLICT THAT WON'T EVEN RIVAL WWII. IT'S RIDICULOUS THE OUR AMERICAN LAWMAKERS HAVE STOOD BY AND LET CURIOUS GEORGE TAKE US DOWN THIS ROAD. 9-11 WAS A DISTASTER BUT BUSH HAS STOOD ON THAT PEDALSTAL FOR FAR TO LONG. WAR IS NOT THE ANSWER FOR STOPPING TERROR IN OUR WORLD TODAY. WE RATIONAL PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT. AS AN AMERICAN YES I DO SUPPORT MY TROOPS B/C EVERYDAY THEY RISK THEIR LIVES FOR OUR FREEDOM. IS IT CONTRADICTORY OF ME TO ALSO OPPOSE THE IRAQ FREEDOM BULL@#$%.
JAHILION

Remember all of You who say that the pacifists didn't do anything when Saddam was killing people or when there are other people dead around the world:
1) it's all a matter of information. You all know that the information means are strongly in the hands of a few people around the world. When these few want all the world to be aware that someone is killing others they let it to be known, otherwise they don't. Therefore if the pacifists don't do anything it's not because they are hippocrit (like Steve says) but just because they don't know, because they cannot know.

2) You should also know that the dictators don't grow by themselves! Wow what a coincidence. There are never dictators in US. They just grow in Afganistan, Iraq, North Korea, Chile, Germany, always far from US and GB. Did You ever question yourself why?
It's easy: it's because as You create a Saint, with the information means you also can create a dictator.
All the weapons that where used by Saddam came from all our countries, remember!
Have you ever heard about Gerard Bull and the Babilony weapon? Just put these words in yahoo.com and you shall see.
He came from the west and worked for Saddam, and the peaces of the weapon he built came from Europe and America, so what? Saddam is a dictator, fine, but who created this dictator?
Who allowed this dictator to grow and get power?
Come on answer guys?
Who was selling weapons and weapons over the Iraq-Iran 8 years war?
And why US didn't destroy at that time Saddam?
Come on answer...where were the supporters of Iraqi freedom?
Don't you understand that it is all a matter of distorsion of informations?
If someone has the information means they have the power over the mind of million of people.
It is possible that the american will find weapons of mass distruction in Iraq, but are you sure that they are manifactured by the Iraqis? Is it not possible that the same americans take them to Iraq and show that they find them in order to convince all the world that Saddam has these WMD?
It is all a matter of information guys! Have you ever heard Saddam speaking with a correct translation?
Why Bush and all the other freedom people didn't try to speak directly to Saddam? They never try to have a speech with him, because...because they need to keep him like a dictator, the hell, the enemy, the man whose death is going to free all Iraq, the solution of all the problems of the world...ignorant!
With this war You distroy a dictator that you created in 25 (twentyfive) years of (allowed) leadership, and you created again millions of future enemies of US and GB!
What do you think that all the children that are seeing their families distroyed, their friends killed are dreaming now? They just dream to kill the ones who killed their families and friends, wouldn't you do the same?
And is not Saddam now who is killing these people!
Saddam is a dictator, but americans are acting like a dictator does!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They are killing innocent people!
My compliments to Bush administration...if you are going to have thousands of other WTC, don't blame anyone but all of You...they are sons, friends, dads of someone who was killed during the Iraqi freedom...but probably you won't know that because...the information means are still controlled...and they will be the excuse for other deaths.
Remember blood calls blood, the war is not the right mean to sort out any problem, and certanly not to take democracy and freedom to the Iraqis.
You are just taking deaths and spirit of revenge...this is gonna be another Vietnam, remember, because you are not taking freedom to a country like it was in Kuwait, like in Europe in 1948, you are trying to conquer a country sovereign. Iraq is lead by a dictator, fine, but the Iraqis prefer a dictator who speaks their language, who pray the same God, who took the Iraqis to a win against Iran, who uses Oil also for the Iraqis, instead of a leader friend of the americans who doesn't speak thei language, who doesn't believe in Allah, who wants only to steal their unique supply: Oil.
Good luck americans!
God save all the children of the world!

TREASONOUS's comments is exactly what my previous arguments were all about, that the US is heading towards something now that it cannot STOP and continues to blind the American people via a false and misleading term that the USA Government voices to people world wide every 2 seconds via the communications media - "DEMOCRACY" - This is only a word and nothing else, the only thing that it represents is the means to control the ignorant and under privileged via it's sub term - "FREEDOM".

There is not doubt that "FREEDOM" is a very powerful word because it represents what every human being wants - therefore the USA adopted it to its political representation of Democracy and hence, it became the very presence to what Democracy means to the world today.

After all, "FREE" means exactly that! "FREE". So who would argue against it? NO BODY!

Unless you live in a poor country with a poor and destabilized economy with barely enough money to put food on the table on a day to day basis for 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 and above years for you and your family and when the people of that country pleads for a political change to better there "FREEDOM" of economy and living standards, the USA reacts quickly to denounce that nation as "UNDEMOCRATIC"

The American foreign policy has destroyed the Middle-Eastern way of life by destabilizing the region by war and sanctions and now via the media, they Propagandanized the Middle-East change to "DEMOCRACY" by force of war – This is REAL "DICTATORSHIP" at a national and international level.

And for those gun-ho USA-DEMOCRACY loving Americans who believe what BUSH and it's war-mongering regime is doing by killing IRAQ (Soldiers and Civilians) as a good thing because as BUSH say's "IN THE NAME OF DEMOCRACY!" - think again!

BUSH is using the ignorant and patriotic American MEN and WOMAN as a tool to re-affirm the 2 to 4 year old building contracts that Donald Rumsfeld signed to give American Building Corporations a monopolised placing to rebuild Iraq (worth billions) after the 2 year old already planned war that they hoped would last a short time without any Iraq resistance. (Hence - this is the reason for the MASS exposure of propaganda over Iraq airspace by dropping millions of leaflets).

And the push to steal Iraq's oil reserves to own and monopolise the worldwide oil market and alleviate the already current low oil reserve in America.

For those American's that strongly and patriotically believe what BUSH is doing is the right thing!?

JUST CONSIDER THIS! - America invaded IRAQ and the IRAQI people are now being exterminated and their country is being torn apart! Their very history and freedom is being threatened by an invader (something that BUSH calls "LIBERATION").

The Iraqi people have fought many wars in it's history and know very WELL how to fight an aggressor, just what you American's did to fight and expel the British Regime out of America hundreds of years ago because you wanted to be "FREE" and "INDIPENDANT", is exactly what Iraq is fighting for but allot more than what you Americans fought for against the British.

The Iraqi people are now fighting for their RACE, COUNTRY and FREEDOM against the American Regime who has INVADED Iraq together with the British.

The US Government has lied so much to it's people that you have been totally convinced that what America is doing is the right thing - well I guess these dead American soldiers believed it too and now look what happened to them and the "THOUSANDS" of dead American Soldiers that the USA Government is covering up 100% - TAKE A GOOD LOOK because if you are called up next to fight alongside other American soldiers, this is exactly what you will become - "DEAD".

America will not win this war because the Iraqi peoples determination to defend there very existing and sovereignty can endure more pain and resistance than any soldier on earth. And just remember, America is not fighting against Saddam and its Republican Guards and Army - but the millions of Iraqi MEN, WOMAN and CHILDREN civilian population who now have taken up arms to defend IRAQ against US, British and Australian forces.

Just as a mention at how blinding this war is to US, British and Australian people, that Australians today are being told NOTHING about where Australian troops are or what they are doing in Iraq and only that they are doing Ok. When asked about video footage to show that the troops are ok, the Australian people are shown pre-recorded footage of Australian troops doing military exercises in Iraq few days or weeks before the Iraq war started. And the only video footage Australians get to see are navy personnel on frigate ships saying “Hi every one, we are doing fine and we hope to be home ASAP – we thank you for your support, look forward to coming home”. I just wander how many disappointed families will get their father, brother, son, mother, sister or daughter back in body bags or coffins when this war is over because it seems the Australian soldiers have not responded at all to Australia’s (the People) request to see if they are ok.

This sounds pretty much like a cover up!

Dead US Soldier

American Soldiers

Collateral Damage was supposed to be this picture

Collateral Damage was supposed to be this picture

Try to visit this site pls where you will find updated photos & news about the war

http://english.aljazeera.net/

I deplore the very idea of war. Having said that, I am angry and the very idea the Sadaam had over 100 peoples ears cut off to make a point. Why are the people seeing these pictures not angry about that? Sadaam has killed more of his own people than the USA will ever do in ten wars. Now they are a free nation. How about that.

"The Iraqi people have fought many wars in it's history and know very WELL how to fight an aggressor, just what you American's did to fight and expel the British Regime out of America hundreds of years ago "

Form an alliance with France? :-)

To the Canadian: Journalist have now uncovered Iraqi Government documents that talked about the leader of the Arab resistence coming to stay for ten days and this was a request to allow him to stay an additional five days and the persons name was whited out on the documents. When the journalist who were foreign I might add, Rubbed off the white out their was a familiar name under every word that was whited out "BIN LADEN" so you see you do not know what you are talking about when you say that there is no terrorist connection and I imagine that there are a lot of other TOP SECRET evidence that is not shared with the general public I know Canadians are jealous of the U.S. but wake up!

What about the SAS role in the Qala-i-Janghi massacre. Need I say Lieutenant Colonel Tim Collins! Or what about Britains war crime charges following the Kosovo war, when Yugoslavia complained to UN war crimes prosecutors about bombing raids that struck a train full of civilians, and a strike on a Belgrade TV station!These were all civilians. I will stop at that. War is not bound by ruels as everyone would like to think they are. Until you are being tourtured, beaten, mutilated left crying, broken and dying without youre freshly removed eyes in a POW camp in Iraq or any other war, you can't pretend like you understand! Nice people are everywhere until they think your about to kill them! Were you in a battlefield at war with the man next to you! If you were and he left that impression you may have a point. You ought to take you're missiles and shove-em up your ass boy! Your country would be speaking German if left to your own devices.

I do not for the life of me understand several of your views. Did you chose where you were born. Did you make the great decision to be an American instead of someone overseas. No! you didn't and neither did they. These are people just like you and me and I am all for going after the bad guys but I don't agree with becoming one to do so.

Yes war is war! But let the government be straight with us about why we are fighting this war. They say Saddam has weapons of mass destruction! Well the weapon used to split that kids dome seemed pretty distructive to me. I am very patriotic and I love my country, but I will not agree with senseless killings no matter whose names are on the tombstones.

We as Americans need to find a love for people no matter where they are from. And yes I agree that in all fairness the dead POW's should be shown as well to give balance, but in the end It all just means people are dying!!! And there is no clear cut reason as to why.

BOTTOM LINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"And there is no clear cut reason as to why. "
There never is a clear cut reason in international affairs - if you think there is then you are not looking closely enough.

But "saddam was evil" is about as close to a clear cut reason as your going to get.

It seems there is no amount of ignorance that inhibits American chauvanists from expressing opinions.

I've read several intelligent commentaries above from Canadians and a bunch of useless, racist drivel from American morons trying to justify this war.

The war was over oil and any other "justification" is purely public relations organic fertilizer.

There was no Iraqi connection to 9/11, in spite of White House lies to the contrary. There was no credible evidence of weapons of mass destruction, in spite of white house lies to the contrary.

And bad as Hussein was, when he was at his worst he was our CIA man in Iraq fighting the Iranians who we hated because they overthrew in the 1970s the dictator Shah we installed in 1953 when we financed a coup against the legally elected parliamentary government of Iranian Prime Minister Mossedeq.

And what was Mossadeq's crime? He nationalized the Anglo Iranian Oil Company! By the way, what was Hussein's real crime? He nationalized Iraqi oil!

But now we have "our" oil back so these morons can keep driving Suburbans for a few more years. What's a few thousand Iraqi lives if it lets us exercise our god-given right to drive SUV's. Huh?

Oh yeah, and to protect our "ally" Israel so we can keep funding their ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.

Listen to KPFA in the SF bay area (FM 94.1), especially Democracy Now at 6am and 9am, and Flashpoints at 5pm. Long live Pacifica!

Long live the progressive left!

1. Pain 2. Democracy/Shamocracy

It's incredible what has been going in the middle east for so long, the war Iraq/ Iran. the Kurds displacement from their lands by Turkish and Iraki's govenments....Why it has been so much brutality against their own people by the Dictatorships established during the past cetury by a few! why the native people doesn't count? now that USA declared war against Irak is so condemned? I believe there is a great fallacy on actual facts on what is going on. If it was not the best choice to invade Irak by USA at least it might be the opportunity to the native people of those nations to finally establish a true democracy and finally chose their own leaders without fear to be killed...I hope they would have a choice this time and take the bull by the horns and finnaly chose what they need to adanvce and have a better conditions of living and have their own religious choices withour fear of being persecuted.... or executed as well as women being violated, tortured or killed by their own family if deviated from their imposed code of conduct. I believe this is a great opportunity for that region to keep their rich culture, but in a more tolerant and moderate tradition, respecting for each other, also down with dictatorships to be free and prosperous in deed.
It's time for changes all over the world inclusive and let all nacions being under bondage, to be the architects of their own destiny.

Try and burn it down now fucker!

I am a soldier and company commander that recently returned from Iraq. I accidently stumbled on this site while looking for some Arabic for a tattoo to commorate my service in Iraq. Some of the individuals posting on this web site need to educate themselves before they embarrass themselves. No ties between Iraq and terrorism? Pictures of "innocent civilians"? From what I remember, I never saw any uniforms on the people (kids included) that were shooting, mortaring, rocketing, or blowing up my soldiers. In fact, at times they were dressed as (or were) females. If there are no ties to terrorism, then explain the "terrorist training camps" that are routinely found (that the media seems to forget to tell you about). And, is entirely F'IN possible that Saddam "hid" what he was doing when about 6 months prior to the invasion troop movements started? What, you think it was a SUPRISE when we rolled into Baghdad? Also, all of you that do not like what the US is doing, you are free to leave. I suggest you relocate to Hati, Iraq, Pakistan, North Korea or any similar location. Freedom isn't free. Hooah to my brothers and sisters posting similar messsages. Woodstock Six off the net. (This means I will not be back on here, this site sickens me.)

Don't be upset CPT CBrown... the idiots who post here are utterly powerless and needed more attention from their parents when they were young. This is the only forum where they can spew their nonsense.
Most of the immature, emotionally needy lamebrains who post here regularly have too much time on their hands and are going no-where.
We will let them enjoy their MP-3 players and come along as freeloaders in our word where we WORK for freedom.

I was there too, and I can see how this site if filled with unknowing individuals who guess at their version of the truth.

Your mother is fucking shit! you Whore!

These photos are very sad indeed. To the unedukated viewer it would seem as though the US was the bad guy. The fact of the matter is that under Saddam's dictatorship which began about 1980, approximately 300,000 of these innocent (as in the photo) were killed. (I've heard estimates vary between 200,000 and 500,000)...(so I choose 300K as somewhere in the middle) Now put the math together. 300,000/23yrs=~13,000 per year innocent people as above being killed by a dictator out of control. Remember Saddam and that whole "trial thingy" that he has to go to? Yea! that's what that's about. Think about how many lives will be "saved" especially after a stable democracy is established. You don't agree? Great ! that's what freedom is all about. The ~300,000 killed under Saddam didn't agree either. But then again we don't have pictures of them as in the one shown above. I'm sure in your mind though "you get the picture" Have a good day.

One thing I noticed as I was checking back to see if anyone had responded to my post was that the first 4 pictures here are of men dressed in military uniforms. It's no secret this site has a liberal agenda to promote. I suspect that most viewers didn't notice the military uniforms. The shock value of this type of imagary serves your cause well and I would guess you knew these photos were not of real "collateral damage" but rather - actually an Iraqi soldier who was killed in action. Anyways enjoy the freedom our brave men in the military have blessed us with. Okay, I actually was getting tired of waiting for someone to respond to my post. So I said "men" but I know the women are included as well ! So how about this? GO W!

go Rummy!

WOW! This is, from an art perspective very good work. Just as well, makes a nice political statemant. However, if you are suggesting that I think the prison abuse scandal was "okay", you are incorrect. Nor do I believe that Bush and "Rummy" had any direct involvement with this.(contrary to the picture you've painted) ..(well ..ah..you posted anyway). I think the soldiers involved overstepped their bounds by using interrogation methods that were not endorsed by international law. (I'm assuming that you are familiar with Geneva Conventions stuff) Those soldiers are being prosecuted for this action. I'm sure that Bush and "Rummy" believed that their subordinates were acting in good faith under the limits of international law. So my comment on the "picture" is that it is excellent artwork, but I feel the artist is misinformed regarding putting Bush and Rummy's heads in the picture. Finally, does this have anything to do with collateral damage? Very remote connection. And by the tangent that you've now taken me off to, I must just advise you that the greatest short-coming of most liberal arguments is they can't stay focused on the topic, one discussion always gives a tangent into another topic. (and its usually based on emotions rather than facts) Don't get me wrong, I encourage you to hold your values to your heart, If you want to take the liberal perspective please do it. That's what makes this the greatest country in the world.
"I might not agree with what you say, but I would die defending your right to say it!" ...unknown author
Anyways, thanks for responding to my post, I was starting to get worried that nobody visits this site anymore. By the way, did you recognize the guys with the military uniforms at first? Okay, that's it. Thank you ! :-)

The gallery that displayed it was forced to shut down because of anti-free speech thugs in San Francisco. here's the original. more info at the link.

Just wondering if anyone is visiting this site anymore? In the news last week the military had the big Fulluja raid. Most of the city's 300,000 residents where spared of any collateral damage. I thought this was a reflection of the careful planning and execution of this operation. Perhaps I am curious of your thoughts. Do you think the US military proceeds wrecklessly in accomplishing their mission? I certainly don't believe this. I think they take great measures to try to avoid collateral damage. (more so than any other country in history) Remember WE ARE THE "GOOD GUYS" in this whole thing. The bad guys are the ones who are really the cause of any collateral damage. I think the bad guys fear they won't be represented after the government is established. (shi'ites have the majority in Iraq, Sunni's are in the minority and comprise the majority of the insurgency) This insurgency is the cause of most of the collateral damage. Indiscriminant car bombings ect. Welp, I hope to hear from somebody.
Take-ER-easy !

This is a strange time in Fallujah. They say the war is over, but there is no peace. Every day there is shooting, and there are still killings going on. There is very little left of the town now, everywhere there are buildings which have been destroyed.
There is also a terrible smell. We know what it is - it is the smell of dead bodies. Many have now been cleared away, but the smell does not go away, it will stay with us for a long time. The Americans say they are just finishing off the insurgents, but then they have been saying that for a few days now, so people here ask "who have they got left to finish off?" We hear of things like American soldiers killing wounded prisoners in a mosque, but that news is recycled to us from people outside. It is not possible to go out and find out what is going on.
I am not staying in Fallujah out of choice. But I am afraid to try to leave. I am 36 years old, The American troops have been arresting any males between the ages of 15 and 45 who have attempted to leave. They say civilians were told to get out of Fall- ujah, so any man who stayed behind must be in the mujahedin.
...
http://www.indybay.org/international/iraq/

Interesting indeed.When the smell is gone your people will be living in a free country. The US military is searching for any insurgents remaining who are trying to stop freedom from flourishing in your country. Oh yea, sorry I mis-spelled Falluja. I've never been good at spelling. I am curious if the story about the Marine who shot the wounded insurgent has reached the people in Iraq. It explains a lot about what happened and to me seems he was acting on his experience from the day prior. (wounded insurgent called for help, marine goes to help, wounded insurgent rolls over releasing the grenade. this Marine was mildly wounded but had to recover the body parts of his best friend) (wounded doesn't = harmless) If it didn't get to you please tell everyone what happened. We are there to help. Anyways, are you being rhetorical in saying "the war is over but there is no peace"? The "War" with the Iraqi forces under the leadership of Saddem is over ya know. It's pretty clear somebody (Sunni's) doesn't understand a democratic government means freedom from oppression and their religious differences will be represented by their freely elected officials.(I'm assuming Iraq wont have the same separation of church and state that the US suffers from) These insurgents are the reason for continued collateral damage in your country. If I were you I'd try to make a positive difference. Join the new Iraqi military forces and fight for your freedom. A little patriotism will put some pride in your stride and unite the people of Iraq. If you object to the death and destruction that's happening then do something about it. Join the military of Iraq and help get this thing over with so people can move on with their lives - freely and peacefully.
Okay, great to hear from you. good luck!

Even as US forces launch new offensives against Iraqi cities, the flow of reports of serious war crimes committed by the American military in the assault on Fallujah continues. The United States and world media have focussed on one incident that occurred in full view of a television crew—the slaying of a defenceless Iraqi prisoner. It has been portrayed as an isolated incident.

On the contrary, all the independent evidence establishes beyond any doubt that the killings and destruction committed by US forces were so gross and deliberate that the name Fallujah will be recorded in the history books alongside such infamous atrocities as the 1937 bombing of Guernica, the crushing of the 1944 Warsaw uprising and the Vietnam War.

In its very conception, the onslaught on Fallujah was a calculated and illegal mass reprisal against the city and its inhabitants. It was undisguised revenge for the failure of the earlier operation by US forces in April 2004 to destroy the resistance of the city. It was conducted in flagrant and contemptuous violation of all the Geneva Conventions on the laws of war, which were adopted in 1949 in response to the horrors of the Second World War, and in particular the atrocities inflicted by the Nazi armed forces in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union.

In a pep talk before the operation, Sergeant Major Carlton Kent, the most senior enlisted marine in Iraq, told his troops: “You’re all in the process of making history. This is another Hue city in the making. I have no doubt if we do get the word that each and every one of you is going to do what you have always done—kick some butt.” (The former Vietnamese imperial capital of Hue was nearly destroyed by the US military while attempting to counter the Tet Offensive in 1968.)

New York Post columnist and former military officer Ralph Peters summed up the mentality guiding the White House and Pentagon. “We must not be afraid to make an example of Fallujah. We need to demonstrate that the United States military cannot be deterred or defeated. If that means widespread destruction, we must accept the price... Even if Fallujah has to go the way of Carthage, reduced to shards, the price will be worth it.”

There is an objective, historical measure by which the actions of the Bush administration and the US forces can be judged. All acts of reprisal and collective punishment are explicitly outlawed by the 1949 Geneva Conventions, under Protocol 1, which was adopted in 1977. Article 51, Protocol 1 states: “Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or terrorism are prohibited.”

The scale and frenzied character of the slaughter had an almost psychotic character to it. For over a week the city was subjected to awesome air and ground bombardment of a kind which militarily would only be justified by the presence of massive defensive forces and installations. The size of some of the bombs used (up to 2000 lbs) were greater than any used by Luftwaffe dive-bombers in the attacks on Poland, France and Russia.

The obliteration of much of the city was designed to terrify the entire Iraqi population into submission and to cower all further resistance to US military aggression throughout the country. Article 51 plainly prohibits “acts or threats of violence, the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population....”

Read More
http://wsws.org/articles/2004/nov2004/fall-n24.shtml

BAGHDAD, Iraq -- An Iraqi journalist who stayed in Fallujah to report on the battle for his hometown says he and hundreds of other civilians who eventually turned themselves in to escape the violence suffered tough, sometimes humiliating, treatment from American and Iraqi guards.

Abdul-Qader Saadi said he was subjected to multiple searches and interrogations; went unfed the first two days; was blindfolded and handcuffed; and had to sleep for days in a wooden cage buffeted by cold winds at a desert detention camp.

Saadi, who has reported part-time for The Associated Press since early in the year, also complained of having to strip naked for a medical examination by doctors he didn't know, a humiliating experience for an Arab.

"This was really painful," he said Tuesday, several days after his release on Sunday.

Saadi said he was held 10 days as U.S. interrogators tried to sort out civilians and insurgents who were detained as troops moved across Fallujah.

U.S. officials confirmed to AP that Saadi was among those screened. They said 1,450 people had been detained, with more than 400 released after it was determined they weren't combatants.

Before the assault, the U.S. military had warned civilians to leave Fallujah, and most did. Saadi sent his family to Baghdad three or four days before the offensive began, but although the AP told him he should feel free to join them, he decided to stay.

He said civilians who remained were shocked at the speed of the American advance through the city. He fled his home when his street became a battlefield and took refuge in another neighborhood. Then, the owner of that house and two relatives were struck down in the street, victims of the chaos of battle that made sudden death an ever-present danger.

Saadi, who also reports for the Arab-language satellite television station Al-Arabiya, phoned daily updates to AP's office in Baghdad, although with Fallujah's electricity out, the battery on his phone drained and the calls got fewer and shorter.

Five days into the battle, Saadi decided to accept a call broadcast by the Iraqi National Guard for civilians to turn themselves in at one of the city's mosques with promises to be taken to safety. He had doubts, but with two tanks surrounding the house where he had taken shelter, he felt he had little choice.

People trickled warily from houses as fighting between U.S. troops and insurgents continued around them. Speaking haltingly through tears, Saadi said he saw a few people, including a woman and child, killed by bullets as they walked toward the mosque.

At the mosque, he was searched and his Thuraya satellite phone was confiscated.

He and others were taken to a railway station north of Fallujah. Women and children were separated from men, who were kept together in a room so dirty it felt like "an animal barn."

Eventually, about 400 men were crowded into the room. Lines formed for the single toilet. The detainees were given water but no food during their two days at the station, Saadi said.

One night, as the men were sleeping on the bare cement floor, Iraqi National Guardsmen entered, kicking some, he said. They were accompanied by a man whose face mask covered all but his eyes. The informant pointed out some men, who were dragged away, Saadi said.

Saadi said he repeatedly told Iraqi and U.S. soldiers he was a journalist. After a brief interrogation at the station, his press card and $100 were taken away, he said. He and others were blindfolded and their hands bound with plastic cuffs before they were shoved onto trucks without being told where they were being taken.

After a drive of about two hours, the detainees were dragged out into a chill wind at a camp where barbed wire surrounded wooden cages. Saadi said he and 19 others were herded into one cage. Each got a thin sponge mattress, but every three had to share a thin, olive-colored sheet.

"It was too cold. We couldn't sleep," Saadi said. "We slept in the morning instead," when the sun came out.

The men were fed three meals of U.S. military rations every day and were taken to the toilet three times a day. Once, Saadi said, he was denied one of his meals and ordered to pick up the trash as punishment for laughing. Others who relieved themselves inside the wooden cage were locked up in a tiny, windowless room, he said.

But Saadi's most humiliating time came when he was led into a room full of doctors, translators and soldiers and asked to disrobe for a medical examination. "I was really ashamed and psychologically shaken," he said.

Freedom came Sunday when Saadi and about 150 others were driven to Saqlawiyah, west of Fallujah, and let go. Every man was given $20, about a tenth of the monthly pay for a police officer or teacher.

Saadi then made a seven-hour journey - on foot, by boat and in a variety of cars - to get to his family in Baghdad.

His sister brought out chocolates to celebrate his return.

"This is not the time to be happy," he told her. "I saw dead people. Destruction was everywhere."

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apmideast_story.asp?category=1107&slug=Iraq%20Fallujah%20Detention

BAGHDAD, November23 , (IslamOnline.net) – Despite promises by the interim Iraqi government to compensate them for their unspeakable sufferings inflicted by a devastating US-led offensive, gloomy days are lying ahead for the refugees of the war-battered city of Fallujah.

Meager $ 100for each family as pledged by Prime Minister Iyad Allawi, let alone no amount of money can make up for the loss the loved ones and destruction of their homes.

“How can we forget predawn raids and displacement during the holy fasting month of Ramadan?” Tearful Zaydan Khalaf Al-Jarrad, a Fallujah refugee, told IslamOnline.net.

Thaer Naqib, the spokesman for the Iraqi government, had said the government would pay $ 100and food suppiles to every displaced Fallujah family in addition to other forms of reparations for destruction in the western Iraqi city.

“The scene of giving two my relatives a final send-off as they were caught in the crossfire and couldn’t flee the city can’t fade away easily as the premier might think,” Jarrad added.

“And what is the importance of money even if we returned home with our the entire city reduced to a shambles?”

http://www.indybay.org/news/2004/11/1706843.php

We would never know how US soldiers are breaching the Geneva Conventions but for a renegade video aired by Australian ABC television. In it, a Marine shouts: “I’ve just injured one. He’s between two buildings”. One of his colleagues walks over to a tiny alleyway separating two houses, climbs up onto a metal drum, and fires his weapon in cold blood. “He’s done,” he announces flippantly.

We may never learn whether his victim, exterminated like a rat, was a hardcore foreign fighter, a local insurgent or merely a male resident of Fallujah prevented from leaving. Men aged between 15 and 55 were either rounded up or forced to fight to stay alive. Members of the Scottish Black Watch regiment, whose job they say is to patrol the ”rat run”, confirmed the status of fleeing Iraqis as rodents.

In a further breach of the Geneva Conventions, US troops prevented a Red Crescent convoy of emergency aid from reaching the main Fallujah hospital, where wounded residents have been forbidden from entering.

Yet even though the stench of human flesh pervades their nostrils, one Marine held to the view: “We will win the hearts and minds of Fallujah by ridding the city of insurgents. We are doing this by patrolling the streets and killing the enemy.” Those who have lost mothers, daughters, sons and brothers to his bountiful nature will, no doubt, be grateful.

Another such enlightened soldier Lt. Col. Gareth Brandl told the BBC: “The enemy has got a face. He’s called Satan. He lives in Fallujah”. Others of his ilk were holding evangelical ceremonies or dressing up as gladiators for chariot races, using horses confiscated from Iraqis, in the mold of the movie Ben Hur.

A third, a music lover, was quoted as saying: “Only two songs send a shiver up my spine. The Marine hymn, and that song by Toby Keith after9 - 11which says ‘we’re gonna kick you up the ass — that’s the American way.” The majority of US soldiers in Iraq still believe the lie that Saddam Hussein had links to Osama Bin Laden and the attacks on America.

For the 48 percent of Americans who voted against the Bush doctrine, this is not the American way. They include a former Marine Staff Sergeant James Massey from Waynesville, North Caroline, who told the WSW website: “We’re committing genocide in Iraq”.

He describes his disillusionment thus: “We were like a bunch of cowboys who rode into town shooting up the place. I saw charred bodies in vehicles that were clearly not military vehicles. I saw people dead on the side of the road in civilian clothes.” He recalls how his trigger-happy compatriots mowed down 30 civilians at a checkpoint on a single day.

Iraq’s Girl Blogger who pens Baghdad Burning is similarly angry over Fallujah. She writes: “Iraqis will never forgive this. Never! It’s outrageous. It’s genocide and America — with the help and support of (Iyad) Allawi — is responsible.”

The land of deprivation, death and degradation, which Iraq has become due to US intervention, is there for all to see but where is the outrage? Why aren’t decent people of every faith up in arms?

Author and philosopher George Orwell may have the answer. “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.”

“Political language... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable” goes another of Orwell’s remarkable insights.

But the politicians aren’t the only ones to blame for the horror masquerading as the spread of democracy. Extremist religious leaders are just as culpable as is a supine media, which despite its various mea culpas over its failure to say it like it is, has once again stifled truth.

Think about it. How can individuals, fighting for their own freedom against a foreign power in the towns and cities of their birth and protecting their wives and children, possibly be “terrorists”?

And by the same token why should those rampaging foreign armies whose members believe freedom extends to being able to play video games be labeled honorable? Such is the big lie, and one that is the duty of all those who are able to cut through the propaganda, to quash.

There is but one truth for the vast majority of Iraqis. They want no more pretty promises, corrupt plutocrats, superpower pawns or deviant torturers. Amid a growing insurgency, most of all, they want the invaders and their military hardware gone. Who of sound mind and compassionate heart can possibly blame them?

http://arabnews.com/?page=7§ion=0&article=54568&d=16&m=11&y=2004

Holy Smokes! I thought you were the person in Iraq actually writing to me. Sorry, I misunderstood. Unfortunately I have to study for exams right now and can't respond to so much detail as presented. But I will say this; The soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines who choose to serve in armed forces of this great country are men and women of character. Guided by good moral intuition - just like you and me. Nobody likes war, killing, destruction, ect. and especially not the service men and women.(that's not why they joined.) Is it sad that there is such collateral damage, well death in general...of course! But sometimes war is necessary for the greater good of the people. Diplomacy first? sure! But can you figure a better way to get things done in Falluja for example? It's not like we could call the insurgents up on the phone and say "hey guys we'd like to talk about this whole insurgency thing." "look we're really trying to help you guys over here, and you guys are making it difficult." I'm pretty sure they know the plan we have. They don't agree with it. So under the guise of diplomacy there is 2 options. Ask them to leave (not gonna happen) or remove them. (by force if necessay...and it is) The insurgents were well established in Falluja. It required military force to get the job done...(remove the obstacles to holding elections so Iraq gets democracy and we can go home) I really believe the US government is trying to make things better over there. (maybe that's where you and I differ in our opinions). Is it for oil? who knows? I don't think so. After the 1st Gulf War we coulda stayed and kept the oil, but we didn't. We left. Also, Bush would never do it for the oil as he is well aware of the U.S. public scrutiny of his interest in this area. My question to you is why do you think we are in Iraq, and what would you do differently. Oh yea and last question, do you love your country? (if I am correct in assuming your not the person in Iraq) Sorry this had to be brief. Thanks for your reply.

The insurgents in Falluja were Fallujan residents who were upset at the US occupation and only started becoming radicalized when US troops gunned down a peaceful protest in 2003. Some outsiders did come to Falluja to help fight the US, but the majority of the thousands who were massacred last week in Falluja were young men who grew up in Falluja and were just defending their homes.

The majority of the world hates the US war in Iraq and wants it to end. Many who oppose the war hate all wars but a growing number feel that violence is justified at times and that one case of justified violence is when a people must defend themselves against US troops.

There is a just war in Iraq and that is the war against the occupying US troops. The Iraqis are fighting for freedom whereas most US troops don't really know what they are fighting for (Bush may have started the war for oil or geopolitcial reasons but its now mainly an effort by the US to save face)

I'm not sure about the US troops gunning down a peaceful protest. I'm very skeptical of that ever happening, well actually I flat out don't believe it's true.(are you saying they fired bullets at a peaceful crowd of people and killed them?) would you do that? I wouldn't. In the military you don't have to follow an illegal order. I can't even see this as some special CIA operation. There would be no benefit to our efforts over there. The planners in the pentagon know that to be successful we need to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. Also to say the majority massacred last week were Fallujan residents defending their homes is a bit of a stretch. These were Sunni who were using Falluja as safe place/operations and training center while causing havoc all across Iraq. The weapons caches' and explosive labs are evidence of that. Can a Fallajan resident logically reach the conclusion that the US troops are coming to take their homes away, or even rob them, or to even kill them. Be for real. Remember the troops have the same values and moral integrity as you and me. We wouldn't just go into a city to indiscriminantly kill people and take their women as a prize. I'd say there must've been a better purpose than that. would you agree? I think its indisputable that Sunni insurgents were using Falluja as a command post. The insurgents are the bad guys who were willing participants in there efforts to thrwart democracy in Iraq. Thus it was hardly a massacre (by definition anyways) Please try to keep in your mind that the troops think just like you and me. Try to apply that logic to these weird reports that we sometimes hear. And finally, the troops believe they are fighting for a democracy in Iraq that wasn't possible under Saddem. There are fighting for the guy/girl next to them. They are fighting to go home to their family. They are fighting for you and me against terrorism. (I also believe Saddem would've continued to endanger world peace) And my final question is referencing the above post "US saving face" why would we have to save face? We're winning this fight. What? because there was no weapons of mass destruction found? Now we're loosing and have to "save face"? I don't know about that one! When it's all said and done: democracy in Iraq, people are happy, This will go down as a big WIN in US and Iraqi history. Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post. I'm sure you are a very nice person.

Fallujah was one of the most peaceful areas of the country just after the fall of Saddam. There was very little looting and the new mayor of the city — Taha Bidaywi, selected by local tribal leaders — was staunchly pro-American. When the U.S. Army entered the town in April 2003, they positioned themselves at the vacated Ba'ath Party headquarters — an action that erased some goodwill, especially when many in the city had been hoping the U.S. Army would stay outside of the relatively calm city. A Fallujah Protection Force composed of local Iraqis was set up by the U.S.-led occupants to help fight the rising resistance.

On the evening of April 28, 2003, a crowd of 200 people defied the Coalition curfew and gathered outside a local school to protest the presence of U.S. Coalition forces in the city. This developed into an altercation with U.S. troops in the city in which 15 Iraqi civilians were killed by U.S. gunfire. There were no coalition casualties in the incident.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falluja#Counterinsurgency

(New York, June 17, 2003) With major military operations continuing in al-Falluja, U.S. authorities should investigate the apparent use of excessive force against Iraqi protesters there on April 28 and 30, Human Rights Watch urged in a new report released today.

The 18-page report, "Violent Response: The U.S. Army in al-Falluja," challenges the U.S. military's assertion that its troops came under direct fire from individuals in the crowd of protesters on April 28. Human Rights Watch found no conclusive evidence of bullet damage on the school where the soldiers were based. In contrast, buildings facing the school had extensive multi-caliber bullet impacts that were inconsistent with U.S. assertions that soldiers had responded with "precision fire."

The Human Rights Watch report also asserts that U.S. authorities failed to equip or adequately train the troops, primarily paratroopers of the 82nd Airborne Division, for the complex law enforcement tasks of military occupation. U.S. military and political authorities are also to blame for placing combat-ready soldiers in the highly volatile environment of al-Falluja without adequate law enforcement training and crowd control devices, the report said. Even translators were lacking.

"The U.S. military presence in al-Fallujah began with these tragic events in late April, and it has been troubled ever since," said Hanny Megally, executive director of the Middle East and North Africa division of Human Rights Watch. "What is needed is a thorough investigation of possible violations of international humanitarian law by U.S. troops."

Megally said that U.S. forces perceived a threat from the crowd that day, but the evidence indicates that they responded with disproportionate force.

U.S. forces moved into al-Falluja, a town of 300,000 about sixty kilometers (thirty-five miles) west of Baghdad, on April 23. On April 28, a demonstration calling for U.S. soldiers to leave turned confrontational. Iraqi witnesses said that U.S. soldiers fired without provocation, killing seventeen people and wounding more than seventy. U.S. soldiers and commanders on the scene and Central Command headquarters asserted that the soldiers returned "precision fire" against gunmen in the crowd who had opened fire first. Two days later, a military convoy driving through al-Falluja opened fire in the midst of another demonstration, killing three Iraqis and wounding at least sixteen.

Human Rights Watch interviewed victims, witnesses, and U.S. soldiers and commanders, and investigated ballistics evidence at the scene.

Under international humanitarian law, the United States, as the occupying power in Iraq, has the obligation to ensure public order and safety, Human Rights Watch said. When engaged in law enforcement functions, such as crowd control, law enforcement standards should govern their actions. The United Nations Basic Principles on the Use of Force and Firearms by Law Enforcement Officials apply to all those who exercise police powers, including soldiers when they are acting in this capacity. Law enforcement officials may use lethal force only "when strictly unavoidable in order to protect life." When doing so they must act with restraint and in proportion to the seriousness of the offence, minimize injury, and respect and preserve human life.

Human Rights Watch called on U.S. authorities to carry out a full, independent, and impartial investigation of the al-Falluja incidents. Such an investigation should aim to determine the full circumstances that led to the killing of as many as twenty Iraqis, and to hold accountable anyone found to have violated international humanitarian law.

Human Rights Watch's findings are not a substitute for a full independent and impartial investigation, which would have access to classified evidence such as communications between U.S. commanders, debriefings of the soldiers involved, and other intelligence sources, Megally said. An investigation should also focus on the possible role of provocateurs within the crowd.

If the investigation finds there was unlawful use of force, the U.S. government should provide compensation to victims, Megally said.

http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/06/iraq061703.htm

On the night of 28 April 2003, for example, members of the 82nd Airborne Division opened fire on a demonstration in Falluja, killing 13 people.

Two more were killed in similar circumstances a couple of days later.

US forces say they came under fire from the crowd, but local residents say their was no firing from the crowd and neither march posed any threat to US forces.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3235213.stm

This sounds like a Kent State situation. Someone heard a shot, and everyone opened up. BUT.. If they were a "peaceful crowd" why were they protesting coalition forces? Could it be they weren't so "peaceful". further information from the wikipedia you've selectively withheld tells more of this story. Also an encyclopedia should present the "facts". This wikipedia makes a lot of assumptions and therefore I question its credibility. HRW also has a bias opinion. ( if there's no human rights violations then there's noreason for its existance, hence no money coming in to support the cause.) Don't get me wrong, I believe the incident occurred but without being there, or having solid facts, I make no judgements. (and a report from someone in the crowd protesting against the US coalition is hardly credible) (again I question this wikipedia site) It seems reasonable that when marshal law / curfew / or whatever is imposed a reasonable man should follow that directive...Unless of course you wanted to start some trouble. I've been all over this globe, lived in the worst conditions in third world countries,(never been to France though) I have a solid basis for comparison. Tell me please. Do you love your country?

I think soldiers who kill by following orders in Iraq are just as guilty as soliders in any other country who kill and justify it becuase they were following orders. The US public on the whole doesnt have much respect for human life when the life is not AMerican. One can blame the media or the education system for this but its sad to hear the constant talk about "values" when the same public that claims to value life also has no problem flattening a city because it seems to serve some strategic purpose.

The US shooting in Falluja that started the buildup to Falluja's destruction were similar to Kent state. The soldiers were not well trained and fired into a peaceful crow out of fear. The city became more angry at the US and relatives attacked back killing several US troops. After that things escalated with US attacks, attacks by Fallujans etc.. The US attack on Falluja in April was partly a revenge attack for the burning of the US contractors on the bridge in Falluja (Which was itself a revenge attack for US actions in the city in the previous months). The ned result was the US levelling a city of 350,000. 350,000 peopel were either forced to live in refugee camps and all males ina certain age range were not allowed to leave the city beforet he US went in on its killing spree. Many civilians who were afraid to leave their homes are still without food weeks after the US massacre started and its likely thousands have starved. IS this all the fault of a few untrained soliders? No, its the fault of a US policy that sees the world in terms of "good guys" and "bad guys" and saw the city as an insurgent stronghold that deserved to be destroyed without aknowledging the US role in angering Falluja and making it so hostile to the US. The US did start the fighting in Falluja with the gunning down of a peaceful protest, but the ultimate blame for this worst war crime by the US since Viet Nam should be place on the US government and media for convicing the public that war crimes can be justified.

US Ambassador to Iraq John Negroponte (C helmet) and Iraqi Minister of Industry Hajem al-Hassani visit the restive city of Fallujah. Negroponte stressed that January's landmark elections should be held on time as he toured the devastated streets of Fallujah in the highest-level visit to the city since the US-led offensive to root out rebels.(AFP/Mehdi Fedouach)

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/041128/photos_wl_me_afp/041128164028_dwxtw6nf_photo2&e=8&ncid=708

Negroponte was the US ambassador to Honduras from 1981 through 1985. According to The New York Times, Negroponte was responsible for "carrying out the covert strategy of the Reagan administration to crush the Sandinistas government in Nicaragua." "Negroponte supervised the creation of the El Aguacate air base, where the US trained Nicaraguan Contras and which critics say was used as a secret detention and torture center during the 1980s. In August 2001, excavations at the base discovered 185 corpses, including two Americans, who are thought to have been killed and buried at the site. " John Negroponte "worked closely with General Alvarez, Chief of the Armed Forces in Honduras, to enable the training of Honduran soldiers in psychological warfare, sabotage, and many types of human rights violations, including torture and kidnapping." In 1994, the Honduran Rights Commission "specifically accused John Negroponte of a number of human rights violations."
http://www.indybay.org/archives/archive_by_id.php?id=2023&category_id=48

I mean you feel proud to part of the greatest country in the world. Do you feel compelled to make America even better than it already is. Are you happy living in America? Do you recognize a need for improvement in some areas but still in your heart know that this is the best government the world has to offer. Would you stand up and fight for your country because you believe in it. Do you have a respect for the proud heritage of this country, and an appreciation for the men and women who have given their lives fighting for this great land. Do you recognize the freedom you have in this country and how that freedom leads to the expression of your values the realization of your dreams and the satisfaction of your life. Can you disagree with something someone says, but give your life defending their right to it. Is there anything inside you that says America is the greatest country in the world? Okay I know you disagree with Falluja and Iraq and all, but do you love your country? Do you see freedom and democracy as the best way to go or rather do you like socialism? Or would you say, "if I could get citizenship somewhere else, I would" If you had to just blurt it out, totally without even thinking about it or trying to qualify your answer... just blurt it out, what would say..do you love your country?
By the way, I realize this doesn't have anything to do with "collateral damage" so if you think its more appropriate direct me to the right place. thanks!

How can the US talk about fighting for freedom while killing a city that resists? How can the US talk about freedom while supporting dictators in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, .... Did the US overthrow the elected Socialist leader of Iran to install the Shah to make it more democratic? DId the US overthrow the elected Socialist leader of Chile to install Pinochet to make it more democratic? Did the US back the failed ouster of the elected leader of Venezuela two years ago to make it more democratic? Did the US back the ouster of the elected leader of Haiti last year to make it more Democratic? When Americans speak of Freedom they mean the freedom for US troops to walk all over the poorer poeple of the world. In the past 30 years when has the US ever fought for more freedom and democracy? The US usually fights for dictators and tyrants against those who want freedom.

I swear I posted a definition to "do you love your country" but its not showing up. maybe a glitch or something. Basically what I said was If you had to just blurt out an answer without even thinking about it or trying to qualify the answer ...what would you say? Do you love your country?

a "Yes" or "No" answer would be better. Do you love your country?

I love my planet. I love my species. My country merely embarrasses me.

I dont love Bush or Kerry and I dont love the shift in parts of the US towards evangelical fundamentalism. I do love that many in the US are willing to stand up to the government but its not as many as in other countries since the US public is not as willing or able to think for ourselves as we like to pretend. I would say that I love the fact that we at least are allowed to protest in the US but thats not quite true. In Oakland the police oppened fire with wooden and rubber bullets on a crowd marching at the port last year, many people lost their jobs for taking part in protests (because one is only as free as one's boss lets one be) and with protest pens and the like around events like the RNC its hard to say being free to protest from a jail like structure is realy freedom to protest. I would love it if we did have the same freedom to protest as people in many other countries but with our freedoms being slowly taken away it seems like we are heading in the opposite direction.

Do I think the US is the greatest country on earth? Its the most powerful and most arogant but definitely is lacking when it comes to basic morals like respect for human life. Most countries that have less power engage in less acts of brutality. Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, and New Zealand all have problems but dont kill as many people in acts of armed agression.

The usual response from the right-wing to peopel complaining about the USis "why dont you move there" but moving away doesnt change how the US is acting (and wouldnt it have been great if the right-wing had left when they were complaining abouyt Clinton who they hated for some strange reason despite the fact that polcy wise he was just like Bush). Our tax dollars may be used to kill tens if not hundreds) of thousands of civilians in Iraq, but moving away wont change that. If New England, California, Orgeon and Washington left the US that would take away most high tech industries, the best US universities and most tax revenue but thats obvioulsy unrealistic. The best thing for those upset with the war to do is to try to change things from within the US. Some on this site have said that protests and appealing to American morality dont seem to work (Quakers and activists already oppose the war and its doesnt make a difference), and the best action for those opposed to the war to take is to find ways to undermine US effectiveness by joining the army and engaging in sabotage, working in defense industries and slowing down production (or producing 2nd rate goods) and using our power as Americans to slow down the war machine. I dont really think that can ammount to much either. The war in Iraq will end on its own without the help of US antiwar activists. It will end when the US is driven out of Iraq after the January elections by a new government that demands the US out or a unified Shia Suni resitance that sees a new government as illegitamate. The US lost Vietnam because of the people of Vietnam didnt support the puppet government of S Vietnam. The US was driven out of Iran when the peopel couldnt take anymore of the Shah's brutality. The US was driven out of Lebanon by a country that hated US policy in the region. The US will be driven out of Iraq by the Iraqis and it would be nice if protesters in the US could help minimize casualties on all sides but with Bush's re-election one can only wait as the war takes it course. Peace will eventually come but there will probably be over a million Iraqi casualties and probably several thousand US soldiers killed before its finally over.

Patriotism is the same thing as nationalism. Saying one loves for ones country all too frequently means one hatres those not from one's country. I have white skin but would I go around saying I love the white race? No, because that sounds like something only neoNazis say. I dont feel ashamed for who I am but Im not going to go around saying I love the US anymore than I would go around saying I love being white or I love being middle class.

"I love my planet."
If at some point in the future life is found on other planets, love for one's planet could be just as biggoted at the Male Nurse demanding people love their country over others. Morality should be based on something more than a classification of things that includes yourself.

I would never suggest "well if you dont like it then leave". I 've heard that one a million times also. My roomate's opinions are very similar to yours. (and he also never gives up when we get into these discussions) and like you, he eludes questions. I don't think I share the same passion for analizing the mistakes the US makes as you do. Again, I'm not there, and don't have all the facts. I am a fan of Albert Schweitzer but I don't think I could ever be him. (you know what I mean) I am really an RN however in med-school now. I've seen various parts of the website here, and find it interesting.- A little different perspective on world events.(to say the least) You obviously have a lot more information than me (from that side of the fence anyways) I don't have TV. I don't hate people from other countries. I was a member of the military and didn't want to kill anybody. (nor was I a psychopath well...not clinically anyways). I am a pretty peaceful person. I don' t like human suffering anymore than you do. I just believe though that America IS the greatest country in the world, and I'm confident, having lived in many countries that it is. I appreciate the efforts you take on this website. I went to SF when I was very young so don't remember much about the people but I've heard "stories"!! From that I can say I know your not alone in this endevour. Stay optimistic in your goal. If it is to achieve world peace remember America will take credit for this as your are in fact an American citizen - and you should recognize that America enabled you to do this. Okay, gotta get back to study.Take care !

Holy Smokes! I'm a "biggot" now? EE-YIKES !! !

You may not like to see it as such but nationalism (also called patriotism) is a form of bigotry. Most people dont see bias based on nationality as bad as hating people for their religion or ethnicity but there have been anough wars fueled by nationlism its hard to see it as any less dangerous than other forms of bigotry. Most soliders fight and die because they "love their country" and see it as the greatest country on earth with the greatest people on earth with a special mission from God. Its hard to see a real difference between a solider willing to risk his life to kill people in Falluja because he believes god is on America's side from those who flew into the WTC and died because they thought God was on their side. Both US soldiers on risky missions and suicide bombers giving their life for their cause have a similar psychology (no matter what you think of the ultimate goal); its a matter of giving one's life to kill ones enemy because ones people/religion/nation/ideology is special and God is on your side. Before the attack on Falluja US commanders talked about Satan being in Falluja and cleansing the city of evil which is probably an element of the same warped psychology that lead to the thousands of innocent deaths in NYC.

America is an imperialist aggressor. That is nothing to be proud of.

Take all the negatives that you're thinking of out of the picture. (wars, death, taxes,destruction,ect....republicans!) Think about the good things in America to be proud of. That's what I'm thinking about. I'm proud to be an American. Nothing biggotal about that. I don't want to start a war because of some nationalist thought process. I simply like all the great things America has to offer...and I'm proud to be part of it. Prior to battle troops get a pep talk. That's as normal as the one before the football game. God on my side?When I was young I always used to pray to the TV during a football game "God please help the Browns score and win this game"! The conclusion I reached after years of the Browns loosing was that God doesn't play football! And the same is true of wars. ! I never believed God was on anyone's side in a war.

Okay, this will be a new subject. I did some exploring around this website and noticed that this organization has a link set up for the pro-abortion folks. Now if you all are in fact all about preserving the sanctity of life, don't you think it's just a bit contradictory to have the pro-abortion folks sharing this site with you. And please don't tell me its all about choice and you can't choose for someone else, blah, blah,...Because if you mean what you say in the above posts about how angry you are at the US for killing people, ect. and you can't be God, and all the that stuff which places so much value on life (be it American or Iraqi ) then how I ask can you be on this abortion site? Albert Schweitzer would be sick! !
I think I might have you in check-mate on this one !

Most people who call themselves pro-life consider unborn humans more worthy of life than Iraqi civlians. People who are prochoice usualy dont consider unborn humans to be life since if a fetus is not viable placing full rights on it would make women who are involunarilly pregnant slaves of the legal system (views on abortion usually come down to both a view of the value of the life of unviable fetuses and views on the rights of pregant women to choose about their own bodies) One can argue in circles about abortion but it will never go anywhere since differences on abortion relate partly to ones view of the worth of the life of nonviable fetuses and thats usually based off of religious views (although most people do fall on a continuum since most people would hold that disabled babies that need life support should have all the rights of other humans but few would give rights to unfertalized eggs and sperm) While we may differ in terms of views on the value of the life of unborn humans, just about everyone usually agrees in theory that all human life has equal value and the choice to disregard civilian Iraqi deaths seems not to be based off of religion or basic values but a concious choice to disregard basic moral views for political reasons (which is why so many soldiers come home mentally disturbed).

There are anti-abortion people who oppose war (like some Catholics and even the Pope) and anti-abortion Islamic fundamentalists who agree with right-wing Christians on almost everything except for which side to support in certain wars (most religious Muslim Americans did vote for Bush in 2000 afterall).

The really strange part of Bush's war on terror is that the defined enemies are very similar to Bush's strongest base. The views of the Taliban and the views of fundamentalist Evangelicals are very similar (opposition to choice when it comes to same sex relations, the view of women as being created to serve men, opposition to abortion, opposition to divorce, opposition to sexuality in the mass media, supportive for harsh punishments like the death penalty, opposition to the teaching of evolution in school, belief that there should be prayer in schools, etc...) Reagan's support for groups that become Al Qaeda and the Taliban to fight the "godless Communists" made more logical sense in that Reagan's base of support and Al Qaeda's base of support hold many views in common. But while the new fight between Christian Fundamentalists against Islamic Fundamentalists seems not to be over views of society, opposition to war doesnt face the same contradictions, since the enemys of one's enemy is not by definition one's friend.

I have a hard time believing that's your true position on this. Does the unviable fetus deserve the same compassion as those of us who made it out of the womb? Or in your words do you "value the life of the unviable fetus"? Take all of the politics, science and religeon out of this. I've heard all that from both sides already. This should be from your heart, not a comparison, or a justification based on legalities.From your heart answer, is the unviable fetus just a blob of cells...or something else?

I am horrified by the unfeeling, aggression coming from these brutish suburban moranic American males. Privledge and insular perception. blind them from their own sexism and racism. Of course anyone who disagress is a "pussy.." Yea, let's denegrate women and the planet and kill more women, animals, children and helpless brown people who get in the way of your SUV, as you ground the planet into the dust. Well, fuck you redneck asshole. Your time is coming to an end. Rome will fall. All empires do and when it does the rest of the world will not shed a tear. I have marched and I have prayed and nothing has stopped this sick, brutish, machine from committing murder. I am ashamed to be an American. I am ashamed and am during all I can to leave this wasteland.

Okay, I see your a little upset. Just answer me one question. How did I denegrate women? I've always tried to be polite when I make entries here on this site. So I apologize if I upset you. My thinking is that if we disagree...who cares, we're just talking! I have to tell you that your calling me moronic is a bit mean.And I understand your passion for your beliefs and don't want to offend anyone. If you don't like that I post here then please tell me and I won't anymore. I am a peaceful and reasonable man.
PS: I don't even have a car let alone an SUV, I grew up in the greatlakes area so I'm not a "red-neck" if that means being from the south. I had to look up what "insular" meant and I am not that....again you should try to be nicer to people.
I am proud to be an American, although we disagree I would still fight to defend your right express yourself. I don't understand how you could ashamed to be an American. This is the greatest country in the world. It's not my fault, it just is!
Take Care

<<This is the greatest country in the world.>>

Wow, you must travel a lot to know that's true.

I've travelled a fair amount, but nowhere as much you have evidently.

I differ with you on America's ranking. My own experience tells me that America, at best, is the 17th greatest country in the world. That's based on having visited 18 countries (Britain is a real shit-hole).

So tell me, from first-hand experience, which is the worstest country in the world?

" which is the worstest country in the world?"
If you think Bush is bad and the US public electing him with a slight majority was bad you can be thankful you don't like in Australia. John Howard may not be as stupid as Bush but his policies are as bad and one has to wonder about someone following Bush. Plus Howard's talk during the election of invading neighboring countries to engage in pre-emptive strikes was even crazier than Bush's threats ( http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2004/600/600p7.htm ) Even Bush wouldnt make weird threat like that against countries he gets along with ( http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/12/02/1038712877384.html?oneclick=true ).

I've thought about your question.I can't say that I've lived in the worst country in the world. Etheopia or Somolia would have to be in the top 10. That's taking into consideration other variables than strictly money (GDP). Fortunately I've never lived in either. I admit that saying the US is the "best" is matter of opinion. But to say you're "ashamed" or "embarassed" of the US; could probably be countered with more authority...as compared to the opinion it is #1 (if that makes any sense?)

So I'm still curious about the post from SE McIntosh how I denegrated any women. And also while I'm asking; why you insulted me ?
It seems most of the people who post here (anti-war) have a desire for "peace" in there hearts. I'm curious about yours. "Disagree" doesn't equal "hate"
Why would you say this to me oh young Jedi? (remember what happened to Anikin)

What's up? Nothing to say? Are you sorry for what you said?

You can always email, I doubt the person who you asked the question to is online monitoruing this thread to look for responses. I would guess she finds the antiabortion view as sexist since it views women as encubators where the rights of the women who is pregenant are ignored for the rights of the fetus. I'm just guessing you shuld email her if you really want to know what she meant.

Assuming you are opposed to abortion, I would be curious to know when you view life as being sacred enough that killing it is murder? Is an egg that was just fertalized to be considered fully human? Is a zygote that has divided just a few times? What about unferatlized eggs and sperm? I guess if you applied it to sperm then you could claim that ever time a man mastrubates he is comitting mass murder?

This is truely a great question!
No, a woman ovulating or a man masturbating niether by themselves have "life" But, at the moment of conception when sperm meets ovum God gives a soul to this new life. Obviously this is a matter of faith. To answer the question in this setting: Life begins at the moment of conception.
Does zygote have the "will to live"? Whether or not it is cognizant of that doesn't matter. The cellular activity is certainly working towards that goal. Perhaps it is God's will that the fetus grows to maturity. How could we draw a line between the potential for "life" and the actual beginning of "life". I don't think it is possible.
Now some simple simple concepts on abortion: If we can't base legislations on faith as described above then let's at least be compassionate. (there is a legal basis for this in the form of animal cruelty laws) PAIN. When the fetus can feel pain (spinothalamic tract is present) there you can establish a time limit.
One could also argue that denial of happiness could also be construed as pain - In this case there would be no limit.
Women as incubators? What's going on with that? I suppose if they don't want their uterus then they could get rid of it. But Life is not a shmorgeshborg: "....I'd like a vagina and some breasts, but no thank you... I don't want any uterus today"! The role of a woman in nature is to carry the fetus to term. That can't be argued. I'm not letting the men off the hook either. They must protect and provide, care for and love. Any guy who doesn't do that is just as bad as the woman who has the abortion. That part obviously doesn't get the same publicity. Okay, I hope I answered this really interesting question. Thanks!

A day after writing the post above, I read what I had written and realized a mistake I made in the first sentence. Please excuse my haste in not proof reading. The first sentence refers to a sperm and ovum joining together to create a new life. Sorry about that !

Hi all, just back from Christmas break. The unfortunate events that have transpired (tsunomi) in indonesia I think have some interesting points to comment on with respect to some of the past posts in this forum. I think the evidence is now clear that the U.S.has the lead role (again) in helping other countries. The facts: We pledged $350 million in aid to help plus more from private contributors. The U.S. total contribution will be well over half of total from all other countries. How much did the 4 Arab nations give? $25 million. Are you still embarassed by your country? (As posted above?) It is very clear to me anyway that the United States of America is THE leader of the free world. I am very proud to be an American. This is the greatest country in the world. You can call it nationalism or patriotism -- It doesn't matter! I love my country !
I appreciate your comments.

You sound like a decent fellow, but..

I can't tell if you really believe the things you say about the US being so freedom-bestowing and generous and number one in all ways, or if it's just an act, and you don't really give a shit whether the US *really* is the things you say it is.

I suggest you read "Turning The Tide" by Noam Chomsky. Just read the section on Latin America, if nothing else. It was written about fifteen years ago, but is still amazingly relevant. If you really care about humanity in the way you seem to want others to think you do, it will change your mind about the beneficience of the American government.

Boy, you make a lot of assumptions here. First, I honestly DO believe America is #1. It seems that many in this forum "look for" bad stuff that the U.S. does so they can say "...see, I told you America was terrible. ...see what the U.S. did there ...that's aweful...what a terrible country the U.S. is... doing all those bad things! ...I'm ashamed of my country." This is such a negative attitude. Wouldn't it be better to say, "I think we need improvements in this area or that, but this is still a great country to be a part of." Why do some look for reasons to hate the U.S. rather then look for ways to make it better than it already is. Is there some hidden pleasure in finding faults?
Second, it seemed kind of insulting to say that I want people to think I'm some sort of humanitarian icon. I'm simply not that. I am a Christian. I am a father and husband. I am a proud U.S. citizen.
I'll try to look for the Chomsky book next time I'm in the States. Thanks.

What does #1 mean. The US is one of the wealthiest countries in the world but per capita it is not the wealthiest and does not have the highest standrad of living. In terms of civil liberties the US ranks beter than many other countries but it starting to fall down that list too with more resrictions and a public that is starting to value security over freedom. US foriegn policy is probably more immoral than most other countries because the US has the strongest military in the world. "Were #1" sounds more like a football cheer than a way to see a country. Sure the US is #1 in the way a sports team is #1 in that it can beat other countries militarilly in a "fair fight". The US is #1 in the way a school yeard bully might go around bragging about how they can beat everyone up. But the strange habit of Americans seeing themselves as exceptional is exactly why the world hates the US so much and why militarilly the US is rather weak (since the war for hearts and minds is always lost so quickly).

Sorry, I think you misunderstood me. I was just responding to the first sentence in the Jan. 4 post about how I really believe what I'm saying or just an act. The use of "#1" was just an abbreviated response. I don't think the world hates the U.S. at all. It's more likely they are envious. The school yard bully you referred to just gave his milk money to the smaller weaker kid (tsunomi aide) and is fighting against the local thug / gangs committing crimes in the hood.(war on terror).This site:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_gdp_cap
ranks the U.S. as #2 in GDP per capita behind Luxemburg. Oh Yea ! There's a real superpower ! I could throw a football all the way across that country. (yes I love football!)
It would be difficult to separate "freedom" and "security" in terms of value. I believe they go together. You can't go pick up a 6-pack of Bud if you're afraid the local gang will mug you on the way to the store. Finally, don't be fooled by what the liberal media is putting out. The U.S. military IS very strong and the troops on the ground believe in their cause and are fighting with purpose in their hearts.
Do you work at Indybay? or What do you do for a living?

I work in the US developing software for a Canadian company that develops software for insurance companies. GDP wise the US is back near the top in per capita terms (although there are a lot of other countries with very similar economic wealth and a lot depends on how you look at exchange rate vs how much things can buy in a given country) The US is pretty polarized economically with more inequality than many other countries (ie the US median per capita income is lower than many other country whereas the US mean income is higher...) If you focus in on the areas of the US driving economic growth, the regions and industries that make the US wealthy are often full of nonUS citizens (I worked in "Silicon Valley" for a few years and noticed a large percentage of the workers were foriegn nationals form countries with better educational systems than the US while most of the managers who made more were US nationals) The areas with the best economies and most high tech industries are usually also the least "American" in the Fox TV watching, Rush Limbaugh listening, flag waving sense of the word.

I tersm of US foreign aid, the US does give more overall than most other countries (although it will not be the top donor for the victims of the tsunami) but aside from natural disaster aid much of the aid is highly chared politically. The US gives a lot of economic aid (as well as a huge amount of military aid) to Egypt to help prop up a pretty nasty dictator. While the aid goes for good causes in Egypt public opinion is still pretty antiUS because people know why the aid is being given.

In terms of the US acting as a bully one has recent invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan as well as the overthrow of the democratic government of Haiti. One also has a long history of antidemocratic actions
including
-The overthrow and murder of the first democratically elected (and very secular) leader of Iran (Mosaddeq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Mosaddeq ) and the repacement of him with the Shah (a monarch) in 1953. This was doen because democray was seen as less important than the geopolitics of the Cold War.
-The overthrow and mmurder of the first democratically elected leader of the Congo (Lumumba http://www.africawithin.com/lumumba/who_killed_lumumba.htm ) in 1961 and the replacement of him with the brutal dictatorship of Mobutu Sese Seko ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobutu_Sese_Seko ) This was done because democracy was seen as less important than the geopolitics of the Cold War.
-The overthrow and murder of the elected leader of Chile (Salvador Allendehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allende ) on September 11th 1973 and the replacement of him with the brutal dictatorsip of Augusto Pinochet ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinochet )
-plus support for death squads in El Salvador, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Haiti ....
-plus support for very unsvaory rebel groups in Afghanistan,
-plus Viet Nam, the invasion of Panama on flase pretenses to make parts of the Canal Treaty void, support for mass killings in Indonesia when Suharto campe to power, support for Marcos before he was overthrown

etc..
etc..
etc...

What of the claim that Washington’s reaction to the massive destruction and lost of life wrought by the tsunami is an expression of “American generosity, American values in action”?

Generosity implies selflessness, hardly a characteristic of US foreign policy. On the contrary, the successive decisions to increase US aid from an obscene $15 million, to $35 million and finally $350 million were taken with a calculated view toward the immense damage that Washington’s miserliness was inflicting upon US imperialism’s global image.

As Powell acknowledges, the aid is part and parcel of a “war on terror” that is directed at furthering US global economic and political hegemony by means of military power and aggression.

No doubt, the shock of the tsunami’s devastation and the unimaginable loss of human life have led to expressions of what might genuinely be described as “American values,” but not from the administration in Washington.

The open-heartedness and political naiveté associated with the generosity of the American people has been on display across the United States, with students and youth organizing bake sales and other activities to raise money for the victims, and many thousands donating to fund appeals.

It is noteworthy that US television and newspapers have accurately portrayed the scale of the disaster. Once American ruling circles determined that the Bush administration’s initial disdain for the suffering caused by the Indian Ocean earthquake was untenable, the corporate media conglomerates swung into action, providing non-stop coverage of the catastrophe. Graphic and chilling images of rows of corpses, parents carrying the bodies of their young children and villages reduced to rubble have been shown nightly to US viewing audiences.

One cannot help contrast this coverage to the media’s cowardly and complicit silence in response to the human catastrophe created by the US invasion and occupation of Iraq. Images of the dead, of sobbing parents clutching the bodies of children killed by US bombardments and of blocks reduced to rubble are readily available, but rigorously censored by America’s vaunted free press.

Describing a helicopter flight over Banda Aceh in Indonesia, Powell said he had “never seen anything like it” in his military and government career.

“I cannot imagine the horror that went through the families and all of the people who heard this noise coming and then had their lives snuffed out by this wave,” he said. “The power of the wave to destroy bridges, to destroy factories, to destroy homes, to destroy crops, to destroy everything in its path is amazing.”

Perhaps the US Secretary of State would have benefited from a low-flying helicopter ride over the Iraqi city of Fallujah, though continued resistance to the US occupiers there would no doubt have precluded such a tour.

Such a flight would have afforded a view of what a man-made tsunami has left of one of Iraq’s principal urban centers. The fabled “city of mosques” lies in ruins as the result of a tidal wave of fire and steel unleashed by US warplanes, artillery and tanks.

What of the horror of the Iraqi families who heard the roar of ceaseless US aerial bombardment and the thunder of cannon barrages for days before American tanks finished laying waste to their city? Does Colin Powell try to imagine what went through their minds? How many of their lives were snuffed out is something that neither the US government nor the US mass media even bothers to consider.

While the Pentagon and the media continuously spoke only of US forces killing “rebels” and “terrorists” in Fallujah, the reports emerging from initial attempts at recovery in the city tell a very different story.

The director of Fallujah’s main hospital has reported that an emergency team from the facility has thus far recovered more than 700 bodies from the city’s rubble. More than 550 were women and children, while the majority of the men were elderly. Babies have been found dead in their homes from malnutrition. The search has thus far only extended to a fraction of the city, with other areas still inaccessible because of fighting.

The deaths in Fallujah are not included in the credible estimate made in a study published last October in the British medical journal Lancet of over 100,000 additional violent deaths in Iraq since the US invasion, the majority the result of US bombardments. The figure, which equals two thirds of the current estimated death toll from the tsunami, has received scant attention in the American media.

In addition to these violent deaths, there are many thousands more—particularly among young children—caused by the destruction of the country’s infrastructure, resulting in a lack of safe drinking water and the unavailability of refrigeration and basic medicines. Taken together, this human toll represents a manmade calamity that is on a par with the natural disaster that has struck South Asia.

As for “American values,” it is fair to ask whose values were expressed in the vile torture chambers created by the US military and the CIA in Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo and many lesser-known American detention facilities serving the “war on terror”?

Whose values led military interrogators and guards to shock Iraqi prisoners with electrodes, light them on fire and subject them to sexual abuse and humiliation?

It is now clear that the orders that gave rise—and continue to sanction—such atrocities came from the White House itself, embraced by Bush and given a pseudo-legal justification by the man he has nominated to serve as US attorney general, Alberto Gonzales.

Behind these depraved actions lie the “values” of a predatory and corrupt ruling elite that is prepared to carry out mass murder and torture in order to further enrich itself. It has been able to continue the criminal enterprise in Iraq only by systematically lying to the American people and, with the media’s collaboration, covering up the scale of its crimes.

http://wsws.org/articles/2005/jan2005/powl-j061.shtml

Well its getting close to election time now in Iraq. From what I understand the Sunni's are upset because they used to have the political power in Iraq because they had Saddam backing them. (despite the fact they were the minority. Actually the Shi'ites are the majority) The Shi'ites appear to be okay with the transition. But now the minority Sunni's political power is threatened by democratic and representitive government. (they will inevitably loose there political dominance because the Shi'ites are the majority) So anyways, I am optimistic that the elections will bring an enlightenment to the Sunni's. They will soon learn what real democracy means after the elections are complete. Anyways tell me what YOU think if this is correct. (don't repost some very long thing that someone else wrote, I'm curious of YOUR thoughts)

Looks like things are going well in the transition of power in Iraq. Despite the continued car bombs by the Sunni's the general public is increasing confidence in the US mission to restore power to the iraqi government body. The iraqi public is without question more upset with the senseless car bombers who kill innocent people. An interesting spin on "collateral damage" Usually we think of "collateral damage" as being caused by the combatants. In this case, more innocent people have been killed by the Al Queda terrorist than by the US. (by the way, for those of you who argued that there wasn't any Al Queda connection in Iraq...Gottcha ! ! ) Who's the bad guy here? I am wondering if no one has written here (in this thread) because you are beginning to recognize that you were incorrect in your assumptions about the US's intentions. Yours thoughts please?....(not someone elses)
and please ...try to be calm, cool, and collect. Lay off the insults! We're all just talk'n ! :-)

Do you really believe this war was about the liberation of Iraq? I can't beleive anyone would be naive enough to believe that. (Just because the govt. spokespeople say so?) also, the Al Queda connections happended after the invasion and occupation--which has created a hotbead for resistance/anti-imperialist/anti-American fighters--including Al Queda---so you're right, there is an Al Queda connection---only now because of U.S. actions there

Yes, 2 reasons I think. #1 to fight terrorism and #2 to rid the Iraqi people of an evil dictator. As I've said all along, time will tell the real truth. I think we are close to that point.
I just had a thought that if the folks of this organization (indybay including all the sub groups) were in the Iraq under the rule of Saddem - not only would they be outraged at the activities of their leader (Saddem) but also they wouldn't even have the freedom of expression to even raise public awareness. They'd probably be the next half time show at that soccer field. The reason I say that is I am aware that many (not all) of the people who post here are expressly against the efforts of the US in Iraq....I just find it ironic to say the least. People who enjoy freedom of expression (indybay) being against proliferating that right to other people. This doesn't make sense. Also the anti-imperialist fighters you speak of are the Sunni's. Please understand they are the minority in Iraq. Under Saddem they had all the power. Now they've lost it. They're fighting to keep control of the government. (an alliance with Al Queada is helpful) And are regreting they didn't participate in the election process thus losing any representation in the government. Thank you for your reply.

Several months ago the so-called Provisional Government in Iraq released information on civilian deaths, and even by *their* accounting the US has killed far more civilians than the insurgents.

Suicide attacks get a lot of press, but bombing-raids and open-fire attacks by the Americans that kill large numbers "accidentally" are so routine that they get almost no play by American journalists holed-up in Baghdad hotels. These clowns get their script from the Pentagon and call it reporting.

You talk like the US is in Iraq because they want to care for the Iraqi people. Only willfully deluded people believe that.

Let's remember that the US supported Hussein throughout the 80s--up until AND TWO YEARS AFTER he gassed the Kurds. It wasn't until their ally invaded the Kuwaiti Corporation that the US became scandalized by Hussein's abuses--and then embarked upon Gulf War 1--which featured, among other things, the dropping of depleted-uranium tipped munitions and cluster bombs in civilian areas, the deliberate destruction of Iraq's water treatment facilities, and the massacre of retreating, mostly Shi'a, troops. When the Shi'a rose-up against the US' ally, the US allowed Hussein's elite forces carte blanche to destroy the uprising. This lovely war was followed up by the the imposition of an embargo that resulted, by the US' own admission, in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's. Then, of course, came the latest Iraq War--waged ostensibly to clear Iraq of WMD's that didn't exist--which, as has been recently reported, has killed an estimated 100,000 Iraqi's, civilians and forced conscripts.

Now we are supposed to believe that the US is interested in bringing democracy to Iraq--which we are led to understand to mean authentic political and economic control by the Iraqi's themselves. Again, only the willfully deluded--like you--believe that this is the goal of the Americans.

An election only no meaningful democratic content if its purview is restricted by decisions made before-hand "behind-closed-doors" by the occupying power and its lackeys--which describes the situation in Iraq to a tee.

I know that most hyper-patriotic Americans suffer from amnesia, but in order to catch my drift here, you'll have to ponder events that occured more than five weeks ago.

One of the most important tools used by the Bush Administration to ensure continued US economic and political control of Iraq are the 100 Orders enacted by L. Paul Bremer when he headed the Coalition Provisional Authority. Bremer ensured implementation of these orders—some of the most important of which I list below—by filling every Ministry with US-appointed authorities with five-year terms: In other words, way after Iraq was to heralded as a great exemplar of democracy by gas-bags like, well, like you, male nurse.

Bremer seemed to understand the benefits of the 100 Orders when he commented that “you set up these things and they begin to develop a certain life and momentum on their own – and it's harder to reverse course.”

(Of course, we should add the world’s largest American embassy—based in Baghdad--to the list of “things” that are hard “to reverse course” once they’ve been “set-up”.)

Here’s a sampling of the most important Orders which give the lie to the claim that the Americans have handed power to the Iraqi people (This list was gathered from an article by Antonia Juhasz, of Foreign Policy in Focus.):

Order #39 allows for the following: (1) privatization of Iraq's 200 state-owned enterprises; (2) 100 percent foreign ownership of Iraqi businesses; (3) "national treatment" of foreign firms; (4) unrestricted, tax-free remittance of all profits and other funds; and (5) 40-year ownership licenses. Thus, it allows the U.S. corporations operating in Iraq to own every business, do all of the work, and send all of their money home. Nothing needs to be reinvested locally to service the Iraqi economy, no Iraqi need be hired, no public services need be guaranteed, and workers' rights can easily be ignored. And corporations can take out their investments at any time.

Order #40 turns the banking sector from a state-run to a market-driven system overnight by allowing foreign banks to enter the Iraqi market and to purchase up to 50 percent of Iraqi banks.

Order #49 drops the tax rate on corporations from a high of 40 percent to a flat rate of 15 percent. The income tax rate is also capped at 15 percent.

Order #12 enacted on June 7, 2003 and renewed on February 24, 2004, suspends "all tariffs, customs duties, import taxes, licensing fees and similar surcharges for goods entering or leaving Iraq, and all other trade restrictions that may apply to such goods.

Order #17 grants foreign contractors, including private security firms, full immunity from Iraq 's laws. Even if they do injure a third party by killing someone or causing environmental damage such as dumping toxic chemicals or poisoning drinking water, the injured third party can not turn to the Iraqi legal system, rather, the charges must be brought to U.S. courts under U.S. laws.

Order #77 established the Board of Supreme Audit and named its president and his two deputies. The Board oversees inspectors in every Ministry with wide-ranging authority to review government contracts, audit classified programs, and prescribe regulations and procedures.

Order #57 created and appointed an inspector within every Iraqi Ministry with five-year terms who can perform audits, write policies, and have full access to all offices, materials, and employees of the Ministries.

Then there are the approximately 200 mostly U.S. and other international advisers who will remain embedded as consultants in every Iraqi Ministry well after the official occupation has ended.

Clearly, the Bremer Orders fundamentally altered Iraq's existing laws. For this reason, the Bremer Orders are also illegal. Transformation of an occupied country's laws violates the Hague regulations of 1907 (the companion to the 1949 Geneva conventions, both ratified by the United States), and the U.S. Army's Law of Land Warfare. Indeed, in a leaked memo, British attorney general, Lord Goldsmith, warned Tony Blair that "the imposition of major structural economic reforms would not be authorized by international law."
<------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

I'd appreciate it if you'd respond to the content of this post, or not bother to respond at all.

Several months ago the so-called Provisional Government in Iraq released information on civilian deaths, and even by *their* accounting the US has killed far more civilians than the insurgents.

Suicide attacks get a lot of press, but bombing-raids and open-fire attacks by the Americans that kill large numbers "accidentally" are so routine that they get almost no play by American journalists holed-up in Baghdad hotels. These clowns get their script from the Pentagon and call it reporting.

You talk like the US is in Iraq because they want to care for the Iraqi people. Only willfully deluded people believe that.

Let's remember that the US supported Hussein throughout the 80s--up until AND TWO YEARS AFTER he gassed the Kurds. It wasn't until their ally invaded the Kuwaiti Corporation that the US became scandalized by Hussein's abuses--and then embarked upon Gulf War 1--which featured, among other things, the dropping of depleted-uranium tipped munitions and cluster bombs in civilian areas, the deliberate destruction of Iraq's water treatment facilities, and the massacre of retreating, mostly Shi'a, troops. When the Shi'a rose-up against the US' ally, the US allowed Hussein's elite forces carte blanche to destroy the uprising. This lovely war was followed up by the the imposition of an embargo that resulted, by the US' own admission, in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's. Then, of course, came the latest Iraq War--waged ostensibly to clear Iraq of WMD's that didn't exist--which, as has been recently reported, has killed an estimated 100,000 Iraqi's, civilians and forced conscripts.

Now we are supposed to believe that the US is interested in bringing democracy to Iraq--which we are led to understand to mean authentic political and economic control by the Iraqi's themselves. Again, only the willfully deluded--like you--believe that this is the goal of the Americans.

An election has no meaningful democratic content if its purview is restricted by decisions made before-hand "behind-closed-doors" by the occupying power and its lackeys--which describes the situation in Iraq to a tee.

I know that most hyper-patriotic Americans suffer from amnesia, but in order to catch my drift here, you'll have to ponder events that occured more than five weeks ago.

One of the most important tools used by the Bush Administration to ensure continued US economic and political control of Iraq are the 100 Orders enacted by L. Paul Bremer when he headed the Coalition Provisional Authority. Bremer ensured implementation of these orders—some of the most important of which I list below—by filling every Ministry with US-appointed authorities with five-year terms: In other words, way after Iraq was to heralded as a great exemplar of democracy by gas-bags like, well, like you, male nurse.

Bremer seemed to understand the benefits of the 100 Orders when he commented that “you set up these things and they begin to develop a certain life and momentum on their own – and it's harder to reverse course.”

(Of course, we should add the world’s largest American embassy—based in Baghdad--to the list of “things” that are hard “to reverse course” once they’ve been “set-up”.)

Here’s a sampling of the most important Orders which give the lie to the claim that the Americans have handed power to the Iraqi people (This list was gathered from an article by Antonia Juhasz, of Foreign Policy in Focus.):

Order #39 allows for the following: (1) privatization of Iraq's 200 state-owned enterprises; (2) 100 percent foreign ownership of Iraqi businesses; (3) "national treatment" of foreign firms; (4) unrestricted, tax-free remittance of all profits and other funds; and (5) 40-year ownership licenses. Thus, it allows the U.S. corporations operating in Iraq to own every business, do all of the work, and send all of their money home. Nothing needs to be reinvested locally to service the Iraqi economy, no Iraqi need be hired, no public services need be guaranteed, and workers' rights can easily be ignored. And corporations can take out their investments at any time.

Order #40 turns the banking sector from a state-run to a market-driven system overnight by allowing foreign banks to enter the Iraqi market and to purchase up to 50 percent of Iraqi banks.

Order #49 drops the tax rate on corporations from a high of 40 percent to a flat rate of 15 percent. The income tax rate is also capped at 15 percent.

Order #12 enacted on June 7, 2003 and renewed on February 24, 2004, suspends "all tariffs, customs duties, import taxes, licensing fees and similar surcharges for goods entering or leaving Iraq, and all other trade restrictions that may apply to such goods.

Order #17 grants foreign contractors, including private security firms, full immunity from Iraq 's laws. Even if they do injure a third party by killing someone or causing environmental damage such as dumping toxic chemicals or poisoning drinking water, the injured third party can not turn to the Iraqi legal system, rather, the charges must be brought to U.S. courts under U.S. laws.

Order #77 established the Board of Supreme Audit and named its president and his two deputies. The Board oversees inspectors in every Ministry with wide-ranging authority to review government contracts, audit classified programs, and prescribe regulations and procedures.

Order #57 created and appointed an inspector within every Iraqi Ministry with five-year terms who can perform audits, write policies, and have full access to all offices, materials, and employees of the Ministries.

Then there are the approximately 200 mostly U.S. and other international advisers who will remain embedded as consultants in every Iraqi Ministry well after the official occupation has ended.

Clearly, the Bremer Orders fundamentally altered Iraq's existing laws. For this reason, the Bremer Orders are also illegal. Transformation of an occupied country's laws violates the Hague regulations of 1907 (the companion to the 1949 Geneva conventions, both ratified by the United States), and the U.S. Army's Law of Land Warfare. Indeed, in a leaked memo, British attorney general, Lord Goldsmith, warned Tony Blair that "the imposition of major structural economic reforms would not be authorized by international law."
<------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

I'd appreciate it if you'd respond to the content of this post, or not bother to respond at all.

1) Total number of deaths from insurgents vs US. How does the dead guy know where the mortar came from. By the pattern of attacks the insurgents have established I'd say it came from the insurgents.And they continue to fire on innocent civilians.
2)...*their*...: If, as you assert later that the US has control of the government then wouldn't it easy for the US to maintain innocence and report the insurgents have killed more civilians? This contradicts the validity of one or both of these assertions.
3)I've heard plenty about US causing collateral damage. Most recently the Italian lady...oh yea ...Italian.. not an American journalist holed up in a Baghdad hotel, but rather nearly beheaded by insurgents. Then shot at by the US. Does this sound scripted from the pentagon?
4)"willfully deluded people" ...I asked not to be insullted and will address this below.The US is the leader of the free world. Get used to that idea partner.
5)Nobody forgot about CIA-Hussein-Bush Sn. history. 6)Emphasis on "2 yrs after" Politics is a dynamic machine. Undoubtedly circumstances changed especially when he gassed the Kurds. It took 2 years to get the job done. Something wrong with that?
7)Uranium tipped munitions are used for what?
a. Releasing radiation into villages to kill innocent people with.
b. Bringing down titanium statues of dictators located in civilian areas
c. Penetrating the frontal armor on a T-72
"c" is correct! enough said on that.
8)After gulf 1 the constraints of a poorly thought-out UN resolution kept us from helping. The embargo deaths are Hussein's fault not the US's. He should have stepped down nicely when we asked him to. Of course a great guy like Hussein would have seen his people suffering and stepped down to save the lives of the people he cared so much about.
9)No WMD's. Your right. I still think goin' in was the right thing to do.
10)Bring democracy to Iraq.What did you think? that we'd make it communist? It's kinda harder to do trade with commies.
11)Behind-closed-doors:The constitution of the greatest country in the world was drawn up "behind closed doors". Did you think we'd do this without a plan. We'd just set up some election booths and start takin' down some names for nominations. Or even smarter, let the insurgents know what the plan is.
12)"Heralded" go back and read my posts. "heralded" is a stretch. Gas-bag? ...later
13)Okay, ya gotta have a plan to rebuild the country, and I know you don't like it when the bad boy "USA" goes in destroys a country and then don't rebuild it...so lets see what the plan is:
14)#39 all these to rebuild except your editorial on workers rights.
15)#40 if your gonna rebuild you gotta have financial support.
16)#49 encourage business = rebuild
17)#12, #17, #77, #57, = rebuild
18) 200 advisors: They are doing what? advising. A new government, new inexperienced workers - even at the highest levels of government (because why? ...maybe all the experienced guys worked for who? correct:Saddem...and they're gone now.)
20) Have I ever not responded? Are you asking me not to post anymore. Please be honest. It doesn't take much to realize that we disagree. I don't think I'll ever change your mind on what you believe, and you probably won't change mine. So why do we do this internet indybay stuff? I do it because it is interesting to me. I defend my view, you defend yours, we exchange ideas, and call it a day.Almost like courtroom scenario. If you don't think that I should post here anymore then say so, and I promise to follow your advise.

I didn't see the difference between take one and take two or are they the same?

The reason I asked you to respond to the content of my post was because I find that's usually not the hyper-patriot's MO. Instead, the typical response is just a repeat of the Faux News catechism ("we're the leader of the free world--get used to it"), with a few red-herrings thrown in for good measure.

Your post addresses my comments, but pretty damn superficially. If complacency had a smell, I'd be reaching for the air-freshener.

What part/s were "Red-Herring"? Please allow me to address your point more specifically. Have you anything to say about your "gas-bag" comment Mr. Herring?

But remember--how especially Cheney---repeated the assertion that Iraq had strong ties to Al Queda in the lead up to the war?---That's been established to be another lie---That's what I was alluding to, I realize that the resistance is multi-faceted--Sunnis, Al Queda and others from outside the country, and nationalisst who just plain don't want an occupying army---many of the ones who were happy (the ones they showed over and over again on mainstream networks) have even joined the resistance, or at least voiced sympathy, as they don't want U.S. troops there either--like many countries, i.e. Iran, Egypt--in the middle east---the people will say they want regime change, but that they want to achieve it from within--not from the U.S.------and if it was about liberation, why hasn't the U.S. dealt with all the other countries who have histories of gross human rights violations?---the answer is because 'liberation' of those countries won't happen as long as they are consistent with U.S. corporate and geo-political interests---which is really what this war was about---this whole invasion and the preceding words from this administration were a play-by-play of the Project for the New American Century

But remember--how especially Cheney---repeated the assertion that Iraq had strong ties to Al Queda in the lead up to the war?---That's been established to be another lie---That's what I was alluding to, I realize that the resistance is multi-faceted--Sunnis, Al Queda and others from outside the country, and nationalisst who just plain don't want an occupying army---many of the ones who were happy (the ones they showed over and over again on mainstream networks) have even joined the resistance, or at least voiced sympathy, as they don't want U.S. troops there either--like many countries, i.e. Iran, Egypt--in the middle east---the people will say they want regime change, but that they want to achieve it from within--not from the U.S.------and if it was about liberation, why hasn't the U.S. dealt with all the other countries who have histories of gross human rights violations?---the answer is because 'liberation' of those countries won't happen as long as they are consistent with U.S. corporate and geo-political interests---which is really what this war was about---this whole invasion and the preceding words from this administration were a play-by-play of the Project for the New American Century

Bill, I'm not trying to employ a "Red Herring" tactic as I've been accused of by Aaron, but I have to answer your post with a question: Since we are there now, would it be feasible to just pull out? If we did "just pull out" the guys with the most guns (insurgents) would just take over. And, more than likely revert back to a form of government similar to that under Saddam. I'd say that the troops want to go home to their familes also, but somebody has to be there to get the job done. Could any other country get the job done? I'd agree with Cheney about the insurgents/Al Queda being connected. Now it is just a lot more visible. For example where are they getting the RPG's and AK-47's from?
I understand this is a complex issue. There is no easy answer and people disagree on every minute detail of the whole thing. But it goes without saying that when a person starts "mud-slinging" as above by aaron, they've basically admitted defeat...ie when there's no more substance to your argument you start throwing insults at your opponent, ( name calling, criticizing the form of the opponents argument, ect.) because that's all you've got left. I appreciate that you (Bill) have not resorted to this tactic.
I'm a bit older I would guess than most of the people who enter this site. Naturally, I feel a bit awkward at times. I like to hear feedback if I shouldn't post here anymore. I respect the wishes of others if this club (site) is for liberal point of view only. Please let me know as I've not been unable to get an answer from anyone about this. Thanks
PS sorry it took a while to reply because I had exams.

I hear you. I work in public health, work f/t and attend school 1/2 time--definitley understand---I won't speak for other IndyBay folks, but I don't think anyone should be told--Don't post!' as that's not in the spirit of discussion/debate--As for this being a 'liberal' website, I think that's a convenient, overused--albeit inappropriately--word---I don't identify as a liberal at all, but I believe radical change is neccessary to reverse the direction this planet and the human race is going, much of it due to the power/influence/greed of the country I was born and raised in--the U.S.---but that may be another discussion---but as far a Cheney---he was asserting these connections w/ Al Queda and Iraq long before we were over there---which was out and out fabrication---yes NOW there is a connection--one that has been created by our invasion and occupation---you are right that if we pull the troops out, that civil unrest/war/conflict are all strong possibilities---but no matter how long they stay, these will still be possiblities when we pull out--unless they stay forever (which some would like)--and the longer U.S. troopps stay, the more they serve as a recruiting tool for Al Queda and others---

Did you check out the Project For the New American Century wensite?---I think it's both interesting and unnerving that this agenda is being played out now--with many of the architects in the current administration. Back to the 'liberation' lie--do you still really believe Bush's (and Co.) words, that this was about liberation?----Why are we not 'liberating' (by force) so many other countries that have histories of gross human rights violations?----The answer, once again, is that it is not about liberation, it's about geo-political strategy and control of this important region.

I didn't say you were throwing around red-herrings. Read my post. I said your response was superficial and complacent.

I'm willing to pursue this debate, but I'm busy right now and can't respond to your (rather weak) response to my critique of Iraq's "democracy" at this moment.

So, I'd guess I'd ask you: "Is that your final answer?"

If you want to formulate a response that might be more convincing to someone who doesn't belong to the same church as you (the one where America is right and noble *by definition*)--here's your opportunity.

It is difficult for me to look at a piece of this 1000 pc jigsaw puzzle and see what it is a picture of. I can describe the shapes and colors of each piece (analogy to your analysis of each US action that occurs in Iraq) but I couldn't tell you what the picture will be. So maybe a "cop-out" but I couldn't begin to speculate on what exactly - specifically - precisely - how each piece of this puzzle makes the big picture. What I especially don't like to do is to somehow relate individual actions on the ground with the administrations intentions. The Italian lady who was shot - despite this unfortunate event - it doesn't reflect the intentions of the administration, nor does the prison scandal, nor does episodes of collateral damage. Somehow people like to relate this stuff to corrupt US intentions. It's absurd! (the depleted uranium comment to bomb villages was truely funny to me) My response to each of the points you've listed are pretty general because I obviously don't have the "top secret plan sitting in front of me. As far as "liberation" goes: when this is all said and done (and add 10 years to stablize) the people of Iraq will be much happier under the new government than Saddem. Is that so hard to believe? Is liberation the reason we went in? I don't know! Maybe a little bit of both liberation and geopolitical control. Who knows? I DO know that on Sept 11th the US was attacked. We are still threatened by this same enemy. If I was in charge I would have followed exactly this same course. >>>gather intel, find out where the bad guys are, and go get 'em. Intel says Iraq is involved...Saddem...take him out. As President of the US, Bush had the absolute responsibility to protect the country from enemies foreign and domestic. Would you suggest that we just do nothing? What would you have done differently?
sorry it took a while, i had exams.

Not even the US government claims any iraqis were involved.

But it was NEVER alleged that Iraq had anything to do with 9-11---so that's a moot point---yes it was insinuated, so as to instill support for the war, but never, even remotely stated as fact-----And once again, if the interest was in any way to actually help anyone living under a human rights violator, does that mean we start doing that in all the countries where this is taking place?---1st, do you think that would be right, 2nd, would it be realistic? 3rd, do you really think our govt. would do it, unless it was about geo-political control and valuable resources to U.S. corporated interests-i.e. oil?? I think the answer to all these questions may be common sense----

I surrender to the fact that Iraq is a geopolitical interest. I admit it ...it absolutely is. But I thought Iraq was also included in the "axis of evil" - under the rule Saddam.

We didn't only single out Iraq, we also are helping the Afgan govt establish freedom, we've also got troops in Columbia, Korea, well...actually all around the globe. each place could be said to have "geo-political" value. It just so happens that Iraq has oil. Should that stop us from helping them because we're afraid of what people (other countries) will think our intentions are? I give Bush a lot of credit in this regard because people know his family and the oil business and his dad in Gulf War 1, He really opens himself up to *EASY* criticism in the decision to go in. Besides the fact that Bush Sn. proved his critics wrong once already on the issue of oil.
If a rich old lady keeled over, would you stop and give her first aid? Or would you think people are going to be suspicious of my intentions helping this lady with all this money. "They'll probly think I'm only helping cuz I'll get a nice reward". The US helps countries all around the globe. We do it because we're nice. We are the good guys! And if we happen to establish trade with a new stabilized government, and eliminate a threat to the US then we've succeeded. That's the job of our elected representitives. They provide for a sucure future for America at home and abroad. That takes some courage to take a stand on what you believe in despite the critics. Tony Blair is another good example of this.
I know I know you probably are going to say this is more red herring elusiveness. Sorry, that's the best I can do!! What are your thoughts please.
PS : If you could please, it would be helpful to maintain an author name. Not your actual real name, but one that we can identify to the same person. It's difficult sometimes to figure out who saying what and who we're replying to when you use a sentence as author. Thanks!

Well, you said "the US helps countires all around the world" and that "if we happen to establish trade with a newly 'stabilized' govt."---well, it doesn't just 'happen', it's by design, and we don't help people just to help them, only when it's conducive to our business interests-- and that's pretty naive to believe that it's just that simple---"we are the good guys and they hate us cause we're free'"--many around the globe hate us because of our foreign policy, and we have a well documented history of funding severe human rights violators, and befriending them (i.e. Saddam, Osama, Pinochet, ect. ect.) if it's in our 'interest' First, if you went into one of the countries you mentioned--i.e. Columbia---what you would find is: 1. They are the 3rd largest recipient of military aid(after Israel and Egypt) and the 7th largest oil producer---and the failed 'war on drugs' has devastated much of the country, 1.--by being used as a guise to fund the military and paramilitary death squads and 2. by poisoning the people with tons of toxins that have affected their phsical health, as well as their economic health (they end up spraying alot more than just the coca crops---sort of like the U.S.'s 'precision bombs' destroy alot more than their intended target----I highly recommend that, with an open mind, you visit this site and order the book--"Addicted to War" and get a perspective that's not sold to the media by the govt./pentagon--- http://www.addictedtowar.com/
I'll even mail you the book for free if you have an address to send it to---Bill

The united states Of america, the worst country in the world.
The american government is the saddest excuse for human beings ever to grace the good Lords earth. The largest population of murders, rapes, crime of any sort in the free given world. Nobody but nobody thinks the states are number 1,except for the people of the states. Your country SUCKS,your polititions SUCK, you kill your own children as they play in there own backyards, you put licquor stores beside gun stores in poverety stricken neighbourhoods to elimanate your own people. Your health care SUCKS, and so do your laws.If it was free to live in the states I wouldn't sign up.God Bless america because your stinken country needs it

Well Well my dear friends, It has been a while hasn't it?
Lets take a look at what's going on now.
Iraq is voting tomorrow in parliamentary elections
Iraq is building infrastructure to include security forces to replace US troops ==>that means we're planning on leaving (although I couldn't predict when)
Oh and yes I believe it's pretty conclusive that Al Quida does have a presence in Iraq (something that was denied in earlier posts)
So in short, it looks like things are going well for Iraq and its people. I knew that time would settle this debate.
PS: I still don't like personal attacks I like to keep this civilized. Thank you

Al Queda wasn't there before the US invasion and occupation--and if you're trying to potray Iraq as a bed of roses, you are sadly deluded, it's a fucking mess over there.

Every time I hear these "Iraq is swell" nuts I can't help but think about what they would say if things were going off in similar fashion, say, here in California.

Irregular electricity. Water shortages. Dozens of people shot or blown up every day. Torture. Assasinations. Kidnappings. Only safe place is in the Green Zone or behind Bremer Walls. Cops and national guard (in lieu of US military and national guard) having over 15,000 casualties, limbs being blown off and over 2000 deaths. All in a state with a population of around 30 million.

Okay, some schools etc. were being built in this hypothetical "California", and some elections were being held (and some politicians and voters were being assasinated), but how many of these law-and-order pro-war types would be screaming that the "good news is just not being covered"? Not a one of them. They would call it what it is: disfunctional chaos. They'd be calling for detention camps and nuclear armaggedon.

Everyone who thinks they would be saying, "it looks like things are going well for California and its people," raise you hands.

(insert the sound of crickets chirping here)

I don't understand how you can ignore the facts now, after this time has transpired since my last post. I don't think its any news that there is still a war going on. Unfortunately people get killed or injured in wars. "war is hell" (hell=chaos) Also as a consequence of war, there are shortcoming in infrastructure (water, electric, ect.) Hey, nobody is saying this is all good stuff. It's definitely bad ! My point here is the anti-American sentiments posted earlier and the rationale behind them seem to have evaporated. All of the garbage posted earlier turned out to be bunk ! Notice I'm not too emotional about this (as evidenced by no personal attacks) I can just sit back and watch patiently as the greatest country in the world (USA), proves your sentiments to be ill-founded and flat out wrong. And the time since my last post has definitely done this. The accusations that the US was the bad guy in all this, and we're gonna steel all the oil, and the iraqi people hate us for what we've done, and Bush and Rumsfelt are evil, all of it ................is bunk ! !!
I get the impression that you liberals (not all, but some of you) feel like you need to bash the US for everything. There isn't anything in your mind that the US could possibly do good. In short " U.S.A. = BAD " Well enjoy this freedom our brave men and women have given you. I'm looking at the list of indybay topic threads in blue to the left of my screen. I'd bet money if I checked them out I wouldn't see too much good news. Yes, it's a dark, depressing world out there isn't it? Especially when you surround yourself with it. That's a hell of an attitude to live with. Just a tip, and you can take it or leave it. As you get older (as I am ) you will calm down a bit. Your personal attacks don't lend much substance to the "peace, love, good will to all " ..character your trying to portray. If you don't get it now, fear not, time will work it's course.

If a stable, democratic society eventually ends up prevailing in Iraq, it will be in spite of the Bush admin--not because of. Once again--you fail to address facts--It is a direct result of our actions that Al Queda is there--never were before. Just like there were no suicide bombings before. Iraq was never a 'terrorist hotbed/recruiting ground'--but is now.

I FEEL SORRY FOR THOSE STUPID ENOUGH TO THINK THAT OUR MILITARY IS IN IRAC FIGHTING FOR OUR FREEDOM! THEY ARE NOT EVEN FIGHTING FOR THE PEOPLE IN IRAC'S FREEDOM, UNLESS FREEDOM IS TO BE KILLED OR DISFIGURED. NOW WE MUST LEAVE, AND WHAT WILL WE HAVE WE LEFT? MY HEART CRIES FOR THESE PEOPLE. ALSO IF YOU DON'T FEEL BAD FOR THOSE PEOPLE KILLED BECAUSE SOME ORGANIZATIONS PARADE OUR DEAD SOLDIERS IN THE STREETS, WE HAVE SERIAL KILLERS IN OUR COUNTRY AS WELL THAT ARE VERY HAPPY ABOUT WHO THEY HAVE KILLED AND HOW MANY. LOTS OF INOCENT PEOPLE ARE MURDERED IN OUR CITIES ERERY DAY. I'M GLAD I DON'T GET BLASTED WITH BOMBS AND GUNS BECAUSE MURDERERS EXIST HERE! WAKE UP PEOPLE. WHEN YOU ARE GLAD PEOPLE DIE OR YOU HATE THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT THE SAME RELIGION. OR NATIONALITY AS YOU, YOU ARE NO DIFFERENT THAN A NAZI OR THE K. K. K...........I BELIEVE THAT TERROR IS IN OUR OWN COUNTRY WE SHOULD BE PROTECTING OUR OWN SOIL. I KNOW THERE ARE BAD PEOPLE OVER THERE. THERE ARE BAD PEOP0LE HERE TOO. IT'S LIKE...ONE KID DID SOMETHING BAD SO LET'S BEAT ALL THE KIDS AND THAT WAY WE KNOW WE GOT THE GUILTY ONE. LIKE ALL THE OTHERS ARE'NT GOING TO FEEL SLIGHTED. THE MEEK ONES WILL BE DESTROYED AND THE REALLY BAD ONES THEN FEEL THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH CRAP BECAUSE EVERYONE HATES US ANY WAY. WHAT EVER HAPPENNED TO DIPLOMACY, STRENGTH, AND WISDOM.......LETS GET IT BACK PEOPLE! STOP BEING WAR MONGERS! PUT PEACE AND LOVE IN YOUR MINDS. CONQUER WITH INTELIGENCE! NOT BRUTALITY...........WAR ONLY AS A LAST RESORT!...IRAC DID NOT ATTACK US, AN EVIL ORGANIZATION DID!!!!....GET REAL!!!.......I FOR ONE DO NOT WANT TO BE KNOWN AS PART OF AN EVIL EMPIRE REAKING HAVIC ON INOCENT PEOPLE.

I AM SORRY FOR WRITING IRAQ-----IRAC IN MY LAST COMMENT AS I AM USED TO WRITING QUIC WITH OTHERS ......IT IS DISRESPECTFUL..AND I RECANT. I ALSO DO NOT BELIEVE ALAH WILL DESTROY ME OR ANYONE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER FOR THIS ATTACK ON IRAQ. I BELIEVE IT WILL BE IN THEIR NIGHTMARES AND AT THEIR BEDSIDES AT THE HOUR OF THEIR DEATHS, THE ONES WHO HAVE MURDERED WITHOUT GUILT, ORDAINED BY THEIR SUPERIORS AT THE TIME OF THE MURDERING. THE HORRORS THEY HAVE SEEN AND DONE WILL PLAY OUT WHEN THEY CLOSE THEIR EYES FOR PEACE, AND SHALL RECIEVE NONE. AS FOR GEORGE BUSH HE WILL SLEEP WELL AT NIGHT BECAUSE I BELEIVE HE IS MOVED BY THE DEVIL!

You're an idiot, Iraq has killed over 60,000 human beings, and the sooner we are over there, the more the world is in pain.

Fuck you, go die in a hole, you sick son of a bitch.

IF WE PULL OUT THEN ALL WAS FOR NO REASON!!! i was there. i watched my friend take the wound that would ultimately lead to his death. I don't believe he died for a lie. He died trying to help a group of civilians out of a hot area that was subject to frequent mortar attacks. He got hit in the spine with a piece of shrapnel. that man was a hero at least in the eyes of those people. If you assholes cant see him as a hero and want to pull out then you are the assholes that will ultimately be the ones that made him die for no reason. i am so mad i cant even think straight. these are some of the dumbest posts about the war i have ever read. Seriously complete biased bull shit. you guys talk big and act like you are all right. I bet you guys would have also spit on the soldiers of vietnam when they got back, cause thats how tough you guys are.

America went to iraq because the Suddam mainly would not allow the UN investigators where they requested to go. I am fucking tired of the UN whining about shit and not doing anything about it. If Suddam (sp) really was innocent then why wouldnt he let the un inspectors fucking inspect everything? oh... thats right.... you all fucking forgot the main variable that caused the whole invasion in the first place. I think everyone forgot. The democrats, the republicans, AND THE WHIGS!!! then everyone started saying "well, while we are here..." My history may not be what it used to be but i believe the hussein family was the more violent of the houses in the middle east prior to world war II. The English used the Saudi house to get rid of the hussein house after using the hussein house to destroy the ottoman empire during WWI. At least countries are not fucking playing the middle east against each other anymore, but now that Europe cant fucking control it anymore they want to pretend the problems there arent the fault of their pre-wwII imperialistic goals and ideals. fuck...i am a little tired...

OKAY, somebody made a nice list of dictators that have been removed. please allow me to repost... this is what they put.

Hitler - as part of allies
Mussolini - as part of allies
Papa and Baby Doc Duvalier - unsanctioned invasion
Hussein - still in progress

I personally think they are missing alot. allow me to add the dictators that have been removed that i think you fucktard liberals forget cause they weren't on youtube or on family guy. you may have to forgive my spelling as i am just listing these from memory without any references on wikipedia or google.
Bear in mind most of these were removed from power by the allies.

napoleon
Otto von Bismark
Nicholas II (tsar of russia)
Sultan Abdulhamid
Santa Anna

I would also like to add after world war one at the treaty of versailles, the united states was the only country to actually listen to what the representatives of what is modern day iraq, iran, saudi arabia, afghanistan, and most middle east countries. the united states was the only one to consider the people of these countries as equals. And when the anti-semitism of western europe countries along with england finally decided to give the zionists (a jewish movement that wanted their own country) a country, isreal, The United states secretly supported the isreali armed forces when the rest of the world paid no attention. Of course it isnt the fucking white man's burden (i am white btw) to make countries in land that isnt theirs to begin with so...yeah... the rest is history. History people. if you fuckers studied any history you would know that the american armed forces are actually trying to prevent it from repeating itself.

I differ with you on America's ranking. My own experience tells me that America, at best, is the 17th greatest country in the world. That's based on having visited 18 countries (Britain is a real shit-hole).

So tell me, from first-hand experience, which is the worstest country in the world?

Ever been to moldova?

i have been to england, it isnt the best country in the world. The cultural segregation of the Indians and the non indians is annoying. Plus london is one of the most expensive places i have been to.

America ranks in the top 5 of best countries. i would put it in 3 right above Germany and below Norge (norway). In second i would have to put Czech republic, i really like Czech art. First i would have to say Switzerland.I have traveled through almost all of europe and the Uk. Fourth place i would put england right above Iceland.

I dont think faith in any religion in violent times is a good idea. I just think that God, gods, Allah, or whatever and whoever he is just doesnt take a direct course of action in war. think about it. Which side would he pic? and for that matter why would an omnipotent being care about any petty conflict. I think the only war any sort of high creator took any involvement in was World War 2.

Faith doesnt win wars. It just makes them longer.

if we stopped any fight when the casualties got to high half the world would still be a spinning torrent of imperialist europe.

during the French Revolution in the Reign of Terror, 17000 executed with Trial;12000 Executed w/o Trial
At least 618000 Americans died in the American Civil War
when the USSR invaded afghanistan,1 million Afghans died in the war and 5 million became refugees in neighboring countries. 15,000 Soviet soldiers were killed and 37,000 wounded

U.S. Deaths Confirmed By The DoD: 3707, plus 37,000 iraqi and u.s. civilian casualties
*i checked these numbers on 5 different sites*
someone's math is wrong
"You're an idiot, Iraq has killed over 60,000 human beings, and the sooner we are over there, the more the world is in pain."

It is not the fault of American news agencies that they do not display images like the ones above. The reason for a lack of these images is because of government interference with the media. Photographers are contained in certain squadrons, allowing the military to play their part in the broadcasting of the war. The government is not going to allow gruesome images to be broadcast on television in fear of losing even more support for the conflict. This censoring of media lessens my pride in being an American.

Our government has systematically instilled an irrational fear of "terrorists"-through which we have found it justifiable to invade these foreign lands, destroy their homes, and cause such terror under the guise of democracy. How can we erradicate "terrorists" if we are making enemies out of the citizens we pretend to protect?

"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."

-Voltaire

Through our noble American military spirit we have managed to reveal the true terrorists.

I am sure you get a lot of ladies with that "kill them all" attitude.

We were never playing by the rules-thats how we got there.

First of all, as an American I would like to apologize for the small minded arrogance of the aforementioned person. In addition, I would also like to add that I am embarrassed to say that I am an American, and completely agree with you. However, I believe the problem comes not only from one specific race, but from the need of a few overprivileged individuals. There are many people in the US and all over the world, that can see the misery and chaos (not to mention deceit) that is being perpetuated on the citizens of Iraq. It has been over five years-we haven't accomplished much and we have actually succeeded in further deteriorating the situation. (And if we're there for oil, why the F*** am I still paying $3 + for gas/petrol?!) It is a sad, sickening and disheartening situation but the answer cannot be found through violence.

"(And if we're there for oil, why the F*** am I still paying $3 + for gas/petrol?!)"

The price of gas and everything else is only going to go up unless they come up with an overly abundant, eco-friendly substitute for oil to process, transport, etc. everything.

This is war people, what kind of pics do you really expect that would depict the true essence of war? Get a grip!!!!!!!