NO WAR BUT THE CLASS WAR CONTINGENT

this sounds great. i'll be there! can't wait for another breakaway march, hopefully this time the pigs will be better behaved. cant allow the new chief to be embarrassed by faganites

Its nice to see that people who are very political and have strong political disagreements with a group like IAC will go out of their way to support their protest. I have a feeling IAC will reciprocate as they can!! I am so excited by a growing antiwar movement that is almost entirely anticapitalists. Especially ones who arent your normal sectarian slackjaws.

Please spare us your annoying embrace of the red nazis ath the International Action Center. People will organize protests despite these sectarian bastards. The IAC is a dying little cult. Annoying fascists that are becoming irrelevant.

You post some ridiculous thing like "icepick" and you call the IAC sectarian? i guess its typical anarchist logic at work again!

I'll be there!

uh, meet exactly WHERE at the IAC rally? (or did i miss something?) i think a specific meeting place needs to be chosen and publicized, sooner rather than later. i don't feel like i can effectively tell anyone about this w/o a meeting place, as i'm assuming there is a huge crowd at the beg. of the rally.

oh, and i agree it's a good idea to have an anarcho-block during the legal rally. more folks seeing the message and seeing a radical presence.

The International Action Center is a Stalinist group, sect, party, or whatever you want to call it. "Icepick's" anger about them is not "sectarian," it is the "strong political disagreement" that "IAC fan" wrote about. Icepick asserted that "people will organize" despite his or her distaste for the IAC. It would be sectarian if Icepick were to call for inaction, or action against the IAC rather than against the war.

The event is being organized by more people than just the IAC, and it is not "their protest." It is the protest of every individual and group that attends.

"IAC rocks!," there is no "typical anarchist logic," anarchists are a diverse group of individuals who populate an ideological spectrum. Just as there is no "typical socialist logic," or "typical communist logic," or even "typical capitalist logic," many individuals will feel anger towards and have criticisms of various organizations. Clearly, Icepick has a problem with the IAC and is expressing it. That is not "sectarian."

I am an anarchist, and I disagree with Icepick's assessment. I do not think the IAC is a "dying little cult" that is "becoming irrelevant." I think it is a disturbing and dangerous trend that four major bay area anti-war marches in a row are called by a Stalinist group. I have participated in all three previous rallies, and I will not refuse to go to any in the future simply because they are initiated by authoritarians.

Nonetheless, it makes sense to me to keep an eye on self-avowed followers of dictators - Stalinists, Nazis, Maoists, and so forth. These folks admire and emulate people who massacred many dissidents, and they would like to implement a program based on the ideas and actions of their beloved leaders. If we allow the energy of the resistance movement to be channeled in an authoritarian direction, we might end up with an even more "fascist" America than we are getting from Bush.

Debate and dissent are critical components of a healthy social movement. The call for an anti-authoritarian anti-capitalist contingent at the rally is a fantastic idea, and will help contribute to this.

So you have no problem with anarchists spewing the exact some logic with the exact same timing as David Horowitz? This doesn't strike you as odd? If anarchists want to be seen as more than just the people who "crash the party" then start thinking more strategically. Hell, the anarchist party line seems to be "why should we let IAC decide when our protests should be" ... as if this is an argument. The answer to that question is: anarchists are too organizationally challenged to get 100 - 200,000 people out to protest this war.

ANSWER and the IAC are both basically front groups for the Workers World Party. People have 2 main problems with them.

1) Strategic: their strategy of getting as many people out on the streets as possible to go to taim rallies kinda presupposes that the politicians really do represent us in some fashion. In order for the weight of all that opposition to be felt, it has to be channeled into some kind of direct action.

2) While it is amusing to think that those Workers World Party folks must just sit back and laugh about how they got 100,000 soccer moms to demonstrate for the Stalinist police state of North Korea... it is still unacceptible politically. We have to be supporting working class resistance everywhere, not the brutal regimes that today the U.S. government wants to attack.

Also I think that people didn't catch the "Icepick" reference, so I'll explain it to you. Workers World Party broke off the Socialist Workers Party in 1959. The SWP is avowedly Trotskyist, while the WWP is subtly Trotskyist, incorporating some Stalinist elements. Anyway, Trotsky was killed by a blow to the head from an icepick. :)

Well, again, the "direct action" has come because IAC has created a large protest environment. Or we could go back to the anarchist demos of last year with 30 punks sparechanging each other with an incoherent political message.

IAC has an excellent strategy and while the breakaway marches are a great complement to those marches, the "anarchists" have offered about jack shit nothing which could remotely be called better.

But whatever, I think the single best response to the sputtering anarchist trying to denounce the only people creating mass mobilizations is to completely ignore them. Isn't it interesting that anarchists had less evil words for mainstream liberal capitalists than they do for confused anticapitalists.

For political strikes and massive civil disobedience against the war! Shut the capitalist system down!
Turn the imperialist war into a civil war!

For political strikes and massive civil disobedience agsinst the war! As soon as the full-scale war is launched, shut the capitalist system down in protest!

Bring the war home! Turn the imperialist war into a civil war!

These people are communists, not anarchists. This call to action is by people who believe that all oppression stems from class oppression, making them communists. Slogans such as "No War But Class War" are Racist and Sexist. What about the fucking race war and gender war? Oh yeah, I forgot that all of these red and black commies are white males. Don't call yourself anarchists unless you believe in the elimination of ALL hierarchy->> you make the rest of us look bad, and you isolate everyone who is a heterosexual white male from "mainstream" anarchist stuff.

That Alex guy has taken identity politics to absurdity. Anarchists DO NOT BELIEVE IN RACE WAR OR GENDER WAR. We do believe in attacking racism and sexism (or patriarchy and white supremacy if you prefer). But we do that through the class struggle. To promote race war is racist. And i don't even know what gender war is? I mean that would mean the end of the human race. Let's look at real anarchist approaches to women's oppression. The Mujeres libres from the spanish civil war. When asked what they believe, they don't say, we are feminists who also believe in class struggle. They say, we are working class women, dealing with the concerns of working class women. In any case, it is not a matter of being against "all forms of hierarchy and domination"... everyone is against that. Ask anyone. Anarchism is two things.

1) It is a way of organizing without authority.

2) It is the self-emancipation of the working class.

This is the core of anarchism and always has been. That doesn't mean that it is racist or sexist. It just means that when fostering conflict, the only people who can legitimately be viewed as enemies are the ruling class and rich... not all white people or all men.

And yes it is communism. And the heart and soul of anarchism is and has always been communism.

Well, Alex is probably your typical anarchist: sectarian and stupid.

For the record, there have been far more women and "people of color" involved in communist uprisings around the world than ever has been for "anarchism" .... many, like in Nepal or Colombia, continue this struggle even as rich pasty norteamericanos spit on their beliefs.

But these people -- many of whom gave their lives with pride for the class war -- are buried under the whining and bleating of modern day anarchist scum, whose main analysis comes from liberal and academic identity politics.

Its enough to make you sick, or at least makes you realize the historical counter-revolution that anarchism has always played.

For a good read on what the CP did in Spain,read Antony Beevor's "The Spainish Civil War" and Orwell's Homage to Catalonia.Liberty,Solidarity and Equality are three thoughts you won't find in any Leninist organization. As for FARC, after the women help fight, they are the ones who cook and clean up. So much for equality! The ghosts of Kronstad and Catalonia warn that to trust a Leninist, Maoist etc type party means certain prison or death to anyone who questions authority! It's always we will deal with that later, when the destruction of patrichry and racism are brought up. I for one will not fight to trade one ruling class for another of party bureaucrats.

Um, what???

Remember the crusty old CNT bureaucrats who fkn sold out the spanish civil war! Anarchists are so stupid they dont even know their own history.

You can go visit the CNT offices today. They are still bringing about class revolution. Ahahahahaha

They must have a low-IQ test for the anarchist club.

The commies sold US out.

... maybe the revolution would have gone on. but collaboration was the name of the game for a bunch of wanna-be bureaucrats a.k.a. anarchists. learn your history

Most did not.

sold everyone out the most. Though the failure and refusal of the anarchists to organize and coordinate the workers to acquire state power demonstrates the weakness in anarchist politics.

>>And yes it is communism. And the heart and soul of anarchism is and has always been communism.

>by anarchists - You have it backwards. The commies sold US out.

So the heart and soul of anarchy is communism which consist of members who sold you out. Hey, where do I sign up!?!

In Acts 2:44-45, the Christians had all things in common with one another through their relationship with Christ, and in this case a special provision for special circumstances. There is no commandment of God that teaches that believers are to have anything in common with unbelievers.

If you want to read Acts 2, you need to read verse 38 and then obey it.

As far as state monopoly capitalism, that's your intrepretation, not that of historys. You are an anti-capitalist so I would expect you to twist the truth in order to prop up your own personal beliefs. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

The doctrine of the body possessed by the devil

http://www.sinistra.net/lib/bas/battag/ceke/cekeogezue.html

Click here:

http://www.rense.com/general35/who.htm

Could you expand on how they were able to actually get all those thousands of people stuffed onto buses during the Rodney King event when they supposedly arrested 1000 people? Was every protester in the city crammed into one block, or why weren't there more protesters down the street that required police attention? Were all the officers on duty there, or were they arrested by 100 officers - and if so, why didn't the people who didn't want to be arrested just run by? Did you look at the pictures of those police lines on market street recently - it takes at least 20 officers to form a line across the street. If there are 3 focii - say three groups of chanting protesters that they want to contain, that would require at least 70 police at each spot, don't you think?

I agree - the close timing of the 15th and d-day on the 17th will be used by them. I was mildly surprised that they didn't do more of a mass arrest until the very end of the Feb 16th after people had been standing around for over 3 hours since the beginning of that situation at 8th and Market, pretty much volunteering to be arrested - however with all the grannies for peace mixed in the crowd, it made sense. However, remember that Feb 16th was the 3rd black bloc within the past 4 months, and you would have thought with the platoons of police on foot, bicycle, motorcycle and horse, plus vans of police ready to be delivered to hotspots, totalling hundreds of police - perhaps 200, you would have thought nothing could have happened on Feb 16th. Each road into Union square had 3 lines of police, with perhaps 50 per access point. It shocked me that so early into that march, everyone just turned away from Union square and suddenly for at least 10 minutes, there were hardly any police around at all - even though there had been such a big show of force until that point. People weren't running either - they were walking slowly. But anywa, it would be nice if we could all achieve critical mass in Midland Texas instead of our town - but San Francisco is a very wealthy town.

>Could you expand on how they were able to actually get all those thousands of people stuffed onto buses during the Rodney King event when they supposedly arrested 1000 people?

Nessie already did that. It’s not his greatest piece of writing, but it is the true story:

http://www.sfbg.com/nessie/rodney.html



>Was every protester in the city crammed into one block, or why weren't there more protesters down the street that required police attention?

There were. As nessie relates, bunch of them actually opened the police line, but the main mass trapped protesters were too stupid or cowardly to make a break for it when they had the chance.


>it takes at least 20 officers to form a line across the street. If there are 3 focii - say three groups of chanting protesters that they want to contain, that would require at least 70 police at each spot, don't you think?

Three focii they can deal with. Dozens of widely scattered focii, they can’t. Also, remember that they will *never* abandon the financial district. What does this say about the rest of the town?


>Union square had 3 lines of police, with perhaps 50 per access point. It shocked me that so early into that march, everyone just turned away from Union square and suddenly for at least 10 minutes, there were hardly any police around at all - even though there had been such a big show of force until that point.


The cops ability to rapidly maneuver is superior to that of the demonstrators because they have real time, tactical intelligence collected by helicopter and delivered by radio. They also have a central command structure. Any attempt to challenge their strengths, ie., maneuver and communications, is doomed to failure. They can out maneuver any mob, no matter how big, because they have a brain and a mob doesn’t. They cannot out maneuver simultaneous, scattered autonomous affinity group actions. Against that, they are helpless. They are also helpless against a swarm. A blunt force, single point assault on the bridge is likely to fail. But thousands of people swarming the approaches in hundreds of separate locations would work.

But then you’ve blocked traffic on the bridge. So frikkin what? What does that accomplish? The bridge is not the enemy. Neither are the fellow workers who commute across it. Neither are the police. You know where the real enemy is. Why not go there?

http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/02/1571697_comment.php

There's a great little bit in that thread about jamming police radio. Affinity groups work very well (escpecially wearing black and running around late at night), but remember what Mao said, "Uproar in the East; Strike in the West."
The combination of an illegal march (which must be NONVIOLENT or they can lock us up past D-Day) with affinity groups and mobile jamming would be the best use of our forces for the greatest effect. They rely on communication, building jammers cuts down on their ability to rely on that. Eliminating interference is one of their highest priorities, so dispersing a massive number of jammers in various places (for example, on the city bus, dropped in the mail or tied to mongral dogs) would cut down on their ability to communicate and react. It would also be nessicary for the police to track down these jammers, which takes people away from the march and away from patroling for affinity groups.
Another fun thing would for an affinity group to drop by payphones randomly and call the police saying there's a riot in the area, then vanish (make sure not to make the call near any real target). Also making threats on non-targets diverts officers away from real incidents.

If enough cops can be diverted away from a march so that the march has a good chance of overtaking them, then (and only then) would it be wise to turn the march into a BB action (remember when estimating strength to take into account enemy equiptment). It might also be wise to strike army-navy surplus places to loot for gas masks and other supplies... maybe even gun stores if you're really militant enough. Hit and RUN looting, throw a brick throught he window, grab a few things, then dash.
Hitting cop cars also makes it harder for them to react, so if you can NOT GET CAUGHT it might be worth it.
But if you can avoid hitting cops, it's a good idea...

By the way, just remember that I'm not advocating that anyone do any of this. I'm just saying that if it were already in your mind do to something like this just don't be stupid about it.

"dispersing a massive number of jammers in various places (for example, on the city bus, dropped in the mail or tied to mongral dogs"

That's a typical pig reaction, calling them "mongrel" dogs just because they don't have the pure (Nazi?) heritage you desire.

Using ECM to disrupt signals is a huge felony. You are in the same ballpark as mixing diesel and amonium nitrate.

They will triagulate it and you will go to federal pound me in the ass prison. Like getting caught with 10 sheets of acid you will fall under federal manditory minimum and probably do more time than the average murderer. A trust fund or your friends calling the us attorney will not get you anywhere.

Not a good idea.

Mongrel was a poor choice of words, the word I was looking for was feral. I'd say the same about a purebread rottweiler if it's running around the street... it doesn't matter what kind of dog or vehicle or anything you tie this jammer to so long as they weren't triangulating YOUR position it wouldn't matter.
I'm not saying one would be wise to put the thing in his or her pocket after he or she turns it on, I'm saying it would be more intelligent to drop it under the seat of a bus and flip it on just before you hop off. Wear gloves when ever you touch it... etc. Even a bus would be a bad idea since (some, I'm not sure about san fran) have cameras. But I'm not saying you should do anything like that, it would be very dangerous and very unwise... especially if not CAREFULLY planned.

If you walk around with something like that in your pocket, you're fucked (duh). But remember that it is a massive crime, and they do have to triangulate it...
The more people are chasing jammers, the more people are not chasing affinity groups... and if someone is hardcore enough to do something like throw molotvs that person is hardcore enough to turn on a jammer and run like hell.
One could just ditch the thing somewhere and make them chase it. If one didn't like the idea of risking doing something federal, one could use an inconspicuous payphone and report a riot then ditch immediately.
Anyway, if someone were acutally insane enough to follow any of the other ideas (breaking and entering, etc) something like a jammer wouldn't be that big of a deal. Just DON'T TURN IT ON UNTIL YOU CAN RUN.
Throwing it in a dumpster, or attaching it to a parked car, or any ideas that allow someone to get a long ways away from it would be good if anyone were planning on doing something like that.

One would be wise also to be CREATIVE. Following almost any but the most vague ideas presented in this thread would be STUPID.
In order to fight a smart machine, one must be smarter and following advice posted by someone who's probabbly not going to be doing it would be extremely unwise unless one were to really analyze the ideas and weigh out all the options, and definitely analyze the possiblity of capture and penalty which would follow.

By the way, does anyone know how long it would take to triangulate a jammer? It might be nice to know, you know, for anyone interested in a stimulating game of electronics trivial pursuit.

Also one might be wise to remember that not all have such a short term goal as "stopping the war." Some have a much larger goal of ending fascism all together, and that such a goal would involve things much with much stiffer penalties than those for jamming signals.

But I think the only way to end fascism is to join the army and help them spread it all over the world. Hail Bush.

Perhaps, perhaps not. If it is is felony, which one is it? What are the relevant statutes?

Is it not more like to be a minor infraction of FCC regulation, "operating a radio without a license" or something like that?

Could someone out there who actually knows the law please inform us, and cite proof for their statement?

A-N-A-R-C-H-Y!!!! His name is Captain Anarchy, but only in his mind.
-Captain Anarchy
Anit-flag

Could someone please explain the premise behind the 'no war but class war' idea/movement. I'm curious as to what it's all about.

308,000 jobs lost in Febuary, offical unemployment is up to almost 6%. Millions in this country are now jobless, and millions don't have health insurance. Perfectly capable people are laid off since the economy is in crisis and because the capitalist wants to maintain his/her profit margins. That is class warfare, war against the working class. Communists are just trying to teach the working class to fight back and end their expendability and exploitation as a human being, in the factory, office, and battle field.

The ruling class drove us off the Commons. We have been resisting ever since.


They hang the man and flog the woman
That steal the goose from off the common,
But let the greater villain loose
That steals the common from the goose.

The law demands that we atone
When we take things we do not own
But leaves the lords and ladies fine
Who take things that are yours and mine.

The poor and wretched don't escape
If they conspire the law to break;
This must be so but they endure
Those who conspire to make the law.

The law locks up the man or woman
Who steals the goose from off the common'
And geese will still a common lack
Till they go and steal it back.

(Old English folk poem, circa 1764)

If you're going on the breakaway march afterwards, come in black and come prepared!
But respect the callout for the contingent and don't cause trouble 'round folks that don't want to be involved.

See: http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/03/1581445.php

Just like after the vietnam war, this combination of intensive military spending, decrease in tax revenue, and expenditures on empire building will make the economy really bad for the next few years.

Here is a very good newsletter called As the Economy Crumbles that has a listing of mainstream media articles with summaries that clearly make the case that the US and World economy are going to be in pain in the next few years:
http://www.infoshop.org/inews/stories.php?story=03/03/09/3005815

Here is an article by Paul Krugman (who is a neoliberal, despite his accurate and good criticism of Bush during the past two years). The economic principles he cites are basic and obvious - interest rates and inflation are going to go up because Bush was such a fool that he's cutting taxes on the rich going into a war and a recession, and this will make employment even worse, which will depress wages etc.: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/11/opinion/11KRUG.html

I wish people would think a this more rather than considering whether the speculated WMDs in Iraq are such a danger. hard economic times are a threat to health too. Krugman is very mainstream and even though his article has a scary sounding title, it's accurate. Economics shouldn't be considered a 'science' that should be left to the experts - most people are capable with a little bit of initial education of figuring out macroeconomics on their own.

That's it!

Black Bloc needs to solicit Grannies for Peace to join them! The grannies often wear black anyway so their signs will be more bold when they wear them around their necks. They wouldn't like the spray painting or window smashing, but they'd offer some protection from mass arrests. And they might like some action, who knows?

>How telling it is of who the early Christians were, that they first martyr, St. Stephen, met his death at the hands of those who oppose sharing.

Stephen met his death by those who refused to hear the truth. You nessie, are among those who refuse to obey God and turn your life over to Him. It is you who will suffer eternally unless you repent.

>Do you love me?

Where did that come from? I am fully aware of what God expects of me regarding my fellowman.

>The early Christians, like all *real* Christians (ie. followers of Jesus, not Paul)

That you do not realize that the apostle Paul, as with the case of all the apostles, were inspired men who spoke as the oracles of God is proof enough to me that you do not want to be obedient. Only you can decide to turn your life around and live for Christ. This life is temporary. All governments, all economies are temporary. We are not placed on this Earth to concern ourselves with what government is or is not in control. These desires you have to change the world and for anarchy is vanity. It is striving after the wind. Serve God, let Him worry about the affairs of men.

Eccl 12:13

This is the end of the matter; all hath been heard: Fear God and keep His commandments; for this is the whole duty of man.

I respect religion and I've never read a whole chapter of any religious holy book (I kind of like he indian shaker church of the NW, which sort of paraphyletically evolved similarities with the other shaker church, and one main idea is to toss out the bible and channel god directly).

But not having read Revelations, it's pretty fascinating how these escalations in Iraq are so similar to parts out of that book of the bible. they talk about the kings storming through the Euphrates river area on the way to armageddon in the N Israel region??? wow - they just need to rebuild the temple.
read
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/world/1814428

Daniel 8: 23,24,25.

'23. And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and holy people.

25. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify HIMSELF in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.'

i like this as a reading of a capitalist society. the idea of "craft" and deceit leading to prosperous kingdom, a kingdom getting high on itself, and then crumbling from within. cool!

The passage in Daniel has already been fulfilled. The passage is prophecying of the Roman Empire. Read the preceding verses.

v20 - Medo-Persian Empire; the two horns
v21& 22 - King of Greece; divided into 4 kingdoms (4 generals after Alexander)
v23 - And in the latter time of their kingdom.... (Who's kingdom? the divided kingdom of Greece, the 4 parts

Who came after Greece (the latter time of their kingdom)? Rome.

-------------------------

cp, many misintrepret the book of Revelation. The prophecy in that book regarding Earthly powers and kingdoms has already been fulfilled. It, too, is speaking of the Roman Empire.

Regretably, there are many that believe that the prophecys in Revelation have not been fulfilled and believe that Jesus is coming again to reign on Earth for 1000 years and that he will sit on the physical Throne of David, which would be in Jerusalem.

>The passage in Daniel has already been fulfilled.<

well, unfortunately, history seems to be repeating itself. or at least, it seems to WANT to repeat itself. i'll let people figure out for themselves who the new rome is...