SF INS Building Smashed and Trashed!

Y'all ROCK down there in the Bay Area! We had a radical march here today, and it was pretty cool, and some folks then went out and broke windows at the Military recruiting station (i guess it might've been people from the march, but i don't really know), but we didn't do any of the GREAT shit y'all did down there. ALL POWER TO THE PEOPLE! SMASH CAPITALISM!

http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/01/1562061.php

There's a clip of the INS scene in that mp3

There were a lot of people at the protests 1/18. The Market street protest took over 2 1/2 hours and was denser than past protests - using up 5 lanes plus 2 sidewalks of Market at 15 people per second or more. Many took BARt directly to Civic center or went on the protests which took other routes. The black bloc breakaway march had 1000 towards the beginning.
In the US, which has a strong nonviolent protest ethic, unlike Europe, property damage to newsboxes may seem to cross a sacred line - who knows how far it could go? However, how many people will die this next month and year from depleted uranium (which has symptoms like mass lead poisoning) and wars for first world economic convenience. Is property damage inappropriate in the first world?
--------

http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/01/1562051.php

YOU IDIOTS!!! What part of NON-VIOLENT don't you understand. You just lost any respect that the 100,000 people came to show. Useless bunch of want-to-be Anarchists!!!! Perhaps you should move to the country that I came from!!!! IRAQ!! Lets see how far your civil liberties go there!!!!!!!!!!!!

"You just lost any respect that the 100,000 people came to show"

Not me, or anyone I know. We were all THRILLED to see this excellent work.

And wake up, it was more than 100k - were you even there??

All of the non-political immigrant friends of mine grinned at the telling of INS' vandalism. The rage in the middle eastern community was there, we just materialized it. How would you like the INS disapearing your family members?

Are you folk really prepared for the next time the police
escalate the force? Slapping a bear is undertaken usually
with great trepidation. Got a very large net?
I would change tactics rapidly, keeping the strategy of
resistance while attempting to enlist local participation
through public service (clean up or food distribution) as
a part of any ‘mischief’. Low profile at first and then a mobile
demonstration involving information flyers and a small portable
PA system. Bi lingual teams could reach more audiences.

"I would change tactics rapidly"

Yes, good ideas. I think one of the reasons this action might have gone over as well as it did was that cops thought things would be a repeat of the last breakaway - where they were shown almost falling asleep - and this took them by surprise.

My suggestion for the next one would be a fake breakaway that runs around but does nothing, while individuals go around and take on the damage in small groups. Cops can't cover every single corporate symbol in the city.

Wow! Big surprise! Anti-war protesters break windows and cause havoc!! I'm totally shocked.

Scott

Great thinking folks. There are so many strategies out there, and it's the creative ones that inspire. The INS windows should be smashed within or without the context of this protest. It is an enemy, not a fellow being with all it's complexities. Many of us are inspired to see it's windows smashed. As a tactic, destruction is so complicated. Let's drop all the emotion and moralizing around it and try to do good analysis of it's effects. We have to keep coming up with smart ways to make sure our destruction does more good than harm to the movement of awakening. The symbol destroyers have my support today. PEACE

Does anyone else see the irony in the "peace" protestors behaving so violently? Is it just me that finds hypocrisy like this utterly disgusting?

Gandhi would puke on your (expensive, socially acceptable, fashionable) shoes if he were alive now. Why even use the ruse of a protest as an excuse to destroy in the name of peace? Just go out and break stuff. Name your "cause" and break stuff. Degenerates.

We don't live in Chile ('disappeared', get fucking real), or 1940's Europe (nazi this, nazi that, puh-leeze), and in case no one's noticed, it's not 1968 anymore.

Maybe no one noticed but 40,000 S. Koreans marched in Seoul in support of US military presence there over the weekend. You guys could barely pull that together in WA DC.

What fucking joke. You hate it here. Let the INS send you somewhere more comfortable. Perhaps Somalia.

Do something worthy of attention, like feed some homeless people or volunteer at a children's unit, otherwise, your just useless.

So, in order to demonstrate your opposition to police violence, you smash shit up. Nice one, pseudos.
Gandhi and any true anarchist would both puke. If you're against violence, stop being violent. And if you just want to smash shit, don't try to find an excuse.

"We don't live in Chile ('disappeared', get fucking real), or 1940's Europe (nazi this, nazi that, puh-leeze), and in case no one's noticed, it's not 1968 anymore. "

Yes, we dont live in Chile and yes this isnt 1968. The US is far more dangerous than Chile and far more dangerous than it was in 1968. The Soviet Union was horrible but it kept US power in check. Without the ballance that occurred then, the US is becoming expansionist and much of the rhetoric one can hear from Wolfowitz does resemble the Nazis(the US now acts as if it owns the rest of teh world). From the standpoint of military power, the US is actually much more dangerous than Nazi Germany; there is no known time when military power in the world was this lopsided...the danger is real and those that dont see it are fooling themselves...

its really not a question of liberal, conservatve or radical... Until recently most conservatives in the US were somewhat issolationist on the view that an empire corrupts..Now even liberals talk of the US's obligation to police other countries...Its time for people to see that no single country has the right to impose its will on the rest of the world

> My suggestion for the next one would be a fake breakaway that runs around but does nothing, while individuals go around and take on the damage in small groups. Cops can't cover every single corporate symbol in the city.

Isn't that exactly what happened yesterday when all of you ran around doing nothing except damaging for peace?

Spiolt little middle class brats.

Do you pathetic buffoons have any idea what kind of impression your making on middle America? Do you have any grasp on the fact that without swaying mainstream opinion to your side, the government is utterly free to ignore you? Or just send the cops to beat the shit out of you, to the cheers of the general public?

But shit, who am I kidding, you don't care.

This is all about you, isn't it? Being big anarchists, being big heros, thrilling to the feel of phony rebellion. "Smash capitialism", jesus what a fucking joke you people are.

Someone once said that Sharon must thank God every day that he has only morons for enemies, Bush must do the same.

The US "policing" the world is something we should be proud of. Look at the last ten years. Milosevic (twice), Aidid, Saddam (briefly), the Taliban. All of them were butchering their or other people. If policing the world is preventing genocide, then why is that a problem to you?

More dangerous than Chile? Pick up a book, man. How many of your fellow wannabe anarchists have disappeared for years without trace?

The Cold War actually made the US more involved in foreign countries, or what you'd call expansionist. Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, Africa, Afghanistan. Millions dead, so the US could be kept in check. You can't tell, but I'm thinking that your moral values are a little messed up.

The US military has unmatched strength, yes. Please name ONE superpower in history that has had the power to take over any country it chooses, yet has no colonies. THERE ARE NONE! The only "real danger" is to regimes and groups who would kill you or me without thinking twice.

You bunch of poser pussies. "Useful Idiots", all of you----look it up in a book somewhere.

Oh, how "brave" and "powerful" you losers are....you throw a few rocks and break some glass and you are such BIG BOYS. Wow. Last time I did that, I was like 12 years old.

Oh, and you're so ANTI CAPITALISM, I'm sure you all don't own cars, don't drink beer, don't listen to music (automakers/beverage makers/record companies---nasty imperialists all of them!)

The last few posts clearly demonstrate a typical COINTELPRO tactic used to divide the antiwar movement. Groups that carried out actions against legitimate government targets of oppression are now under fire for alleged "violence." Unmentioned is the huge difference between violence aimed at people and actions targeting property. War, deportation, incarceration without charges, police brutality, torture, miltarism, and the denial of basic human rights are all forms of violence against people. The American people can clearly see the symbolism in the targeting of symbols of oppression (such as the INS), just as they recall the Boston Tea Party. Furthermore, this was clearly a breakaway group that did not hide behind protestors who chose civil obedience over civil disobedience.

San Francisco suffers from the same advertising blight as the rest of the U.S. Public space has been co-opted by corporate speech, in the form of "naming rights" and other advertising schemes, that have scarred the places the public frequents. Flyers are quickly removed from public places, chalk messages washed off sidewalks, independent news racks are outlawed: all for the benefit of the same corporate monoplies that back the war machine. Antiwar messages tagged on the towers of these corporate oppressors offer a glimmer of poetic justice. Political graffitti is simply free speech reclaimed.

Most educated protestors understand this difference, though a few may be sucked in by the COINTELPRO label of "violent peace protestors." If Mr. Hallinan and the SFPD truly were upholding the constitution, they would be downtown dismantling the INS themselves. Don't be suckered by those who would value property before human life: that is what drives the call to war in the first place.

I don't like your politics, I think I'll go destroy your computer. After all, it's only property.

When does "Blue" & "Red" America get to have a civil war? We hate one another as much as Jews and Muslims.

To my Anarchist sisters and brothers, I applaud your energy, your committment, and your strength in the fight for peace and justice. I do not however, condone any acts of violence or vandalism done in the name of our cause.

While I understand (and share) your anger and frustration at corporate control of our society, window smashing and tagging of corporate property alienates our moderate brothers and sisters from joining our fight.

All mindsets are needed for this lengthy battle to rid our culture of corporate vermin. Only through mass mobilzation can we win against the monolithic "MAN". Violence is THEIR way not ours. When you do violence (even for noble causes) you're doing exactly what they hope for. It gives them fuel to discredit and discount everything we're working for.

I hope that you will channel your immense energys and anger into construction not destruction from now on.

Peace!

Sure, Colt, my computer grows legs every night, runs off, and hurts innocent people. You've certainly put a lot of thought into the matter.

Get real.

The American people can clearly see the symbolism in the targeting of symbols of oppression (such as the INS), just as they recall the Boston Tea Party.

Criticize the oppressors, not those who stand up for the oppressed.

My point was that you justify criminal vandalism with a dislike of their politics. Windows don't get up and hurt people either, but your friends broke some, and you feel better. Your "cause" has successfully caused a few hundred dollars of damage to a lawful arm of the government. The taxpayers you claim to defend will have to pick up the tab.

And no, I haven't given this any thought at all. It doesn't deserve any.

Your demonstration reveals how selfish you are. You show no respect for other (property) owners, you get no respect here. Somehow you are blinded to your own hypocritical violent behavior. This demonstration only made you look stupid....I'm glad it's on the internet for the whole world to see.

"I haven't given this any thought at all."

It shows in your posts...

To my Anarchist sisters and brothers, I applaud your energy, your committment, and your strength in the fight for peace and justice. I do not however, condone any acts of violence or vandalism done in the name of our cause.

While I understand (and share) your anger and frustration at corporate control of our society, window smashing and tagging of corporate property alienates our moderate brothers and sisters from joining our fight.

All mindsets are needed for this lengthy battle to rid our culture of corporate vermin. Only through mass mobilzation can we win against the monolithic "MAN". Violence is THEIR way not ours. When you do violence (even for noble causes) you're doing exactly what they hope for. It gives them fuel to discredit and discount everything we're working for.

I hope that you will channel your immense energys and anger into construction not destruction from now on.

Peace!

Broken glass isn't going to start Americans into following the insanity of the left. BUT I THINK DOWN THE ROAD as the momentum builds of STRONG ANTAGONISMS linking the left to this stuff ... You're gonna see our government come out with anti-traction sprayed from hoses ... and you're gonna see more than just the bloomers of these idiots as they flip-flop around trying to stand up. It will be a relief to laugh. Heck, we may actually cheer when we hear they're upset about something. And about to "demonstrate."

"Oh, the horrors of it" will scream the NY Times. As it shows what happens to pierced body parts when the police and/or fire department come around to "help."

Colt, You flatter these people by calling them "taxpayers". Do you really believe these anarchists abide by the Internal Revenue Code? They are well beyond "cheating" and as we all can see are on to organizing criminal acts.

The people who took personal risk to send a strong message to the federal government, that oppression of immigrants, the secret detentions, the deportations, etc. will be faught against, are heros in my eyes, and of all immigrants whose family members have been swept away from them. But it's funny listening to these fascists talk about the police "taking care of business," you all sound exactly the same, because you are cowards and sheep. Yesterday was a great victory for all those infavor of justice, and there is nothing you can do to change that. You should be scared, I would be.

We average leftists demand that all immigration laws be abolished and anyone who wants to come to the US should be able to. Those immigrant who commit crimes in the US must be allowed to stay! Those nazis who disagree with us are not welcome and should go join the Republican Party!!!

partisan, "Personal risk to send a strong message to the federal government..." These people were COWARDS. They threw a heavy object and ran.

average leftist, if we lived in a land where nazis ruled, you could not even utter your ignorance.

"if we lived in a land where nazis ruled"

Hello? Wake up and smell the dictator!

If the INS is the 'enemy', why don't you all show it the love you show Iraq?

Do you cretins actually believe that the INS is *worse* than Iraq?

The logic of these fascists are just overbearing. Is this 1984? Taking no action at all is "brave" where as taking action is "cowardly." Then they bring up nazi germany, when immigrants are being thrown into detention centers as we speak, and being thrown out of the country, sounds pretty fascist to me. Hey, I'd like to know what these people on here throwing insults have done for social justice, other then be cheerleaders for the ruling class like complete cowards? Cowardness is doing nothing in the face on injustice, which is all you will ever do. People like you are the first to back oppression, in fact you are doing it right now. You are opprotunists, ready to jump onto the bandwagon to save your own hide. You are filth.

The only corporate symbols these young rascals wont destroy are 'Master Card, Visa, Hilton, Ritz' . After a hard day of rioting they do need thier comforts. Pity them when Mom and Dad take away thier credit cards and nip this revolution in the bud.

People who work make beer, cars and music. Company owners don't. Therefore it's ridiculous to say that someone who criticizes 'capitalism' is a hypocrite for drinking beer. People have been making beer and making music for centuries. 'capitalism' is a criticism of 'capital' controlled economics, and started during the late 1800s - it's not a criticism of people making things and running their own businesses, and being anticapitalist certainly is not an endorsement of communism (unless a communist is making the criticism). The internet existed long before any commercial company invented spam emails or popup ads, and could continue to exist if all these things went away. Computers could also exist w/o Bill Gates.

Only when immigrants take over this country will America come to resemble the lands from which the immigrants come.
1.3 million per year is too paltry a flow. At that rate the U.S. will take 100 years to reach the population of China or India.

Soon America will look like Mexico - peaceful, prosperous, a land of social justice.
Soon America will look like China - democratic, an environmental dreamland.
Soon America will look like Sri Lanka - a country which Celebrates Diversity


Yes, indeed. Smash the INS office. Open the Golden Door to all. We hold the torch aloft.

Yours in the Struggle...

How about we smash up his house! INS AND his house are paid for by the tax payer (none of the protesters) so why is it any different?

There's more property damage after a big soccer, football, or baseball game, and it's obviously pointless. Does that stop people from attending these events? Sending a real message to the oppressors is far from pointless, and I don't mean a letter to a corrupt congress or pResident that will never be considered. Get some perspective, please.

"Whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government..."
-Declaration of Independence

The case for war is miniscule compared to the case for revolution.

Keep it up gang...we conservatives only have to sit back and watch your message go down the toilet. You are our secret weapon.

Idiots with an idiotic message doing idiot things.

Laughing

Scott
Capatilist Pig, Exploiter of the weak.

You anarchist nitwits,

Hiding behind the guise of a "peace" demonstration and commiting common vandalism. And a lousy job of it at that. I saw a couple of overturned cans and a cracked window. Pathetic. Didn't even get in. What happened, did the cops show up and you had to scurry away like cockroaches?

I haven't heard a single instance of someone "disappearing". Like that wouldn't be all over the liberal media if it happened. Democratic politicians would be blabbing it everywhere they could.

Ya'll are delusional. And none of your arguments stand up against the most simple intellectual analysis.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2589317.stm

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2604805.stm

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2644951.stm

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2645275.stm

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2664953.stm

intelligent.

'disapearing'?

brilliant.

Yes, as everyone knows, the US is a police state, as bad as Nazi Germany, etc. That's why tomorrow morning we're rounding up all the liberal do-gooders who have been criticizing the present administration and sending them for some much-need "reeducation", heh heh. Hey, don't look at me, you knew the consequences, shouldn't have spoken up! Say goodbye to your loved ones, you won't be seeing them again for a while!

That such a liberal scum bag would be using the name Karl Marx to smear anti-capitalist activities. You have obviously not read Karl Marx, or you would know that he wasn't a pacifist, but supported CLASS WARFARE, and REVOLUTIONARY VIOLENCE. You are obviously a liberal, or perhaps a conservative, trying to troll, but doing a half assed job of it.

Those of you that trashed that building are morons. Get a job, you have no reason to do this. All of you are mental midgets. What is your malfunction?

AMOS, I think your verbal response to this mess is right on target. THANK YOU !!!

"Islamists are following my lead"

Islamists are Marxists, thats really funny... Marx was antireligous and for gender equality...Islamists are really just the Middle East's version of the Christian Coalition. The amount of hate one hears from the Islamic right is about the same as one hears from the 700 Club.

chill out david - do you find this threatening, or something?

Just wait till the friends with whom you shouted "Allah Akbar" with on the Capital Mall on Saturday 1/18/03 come to power my babies. When Dr. Ghazi Khaksan, of the Council on American Islamic Relations, took to the podium near the end of the rally to read a poem. Near the end of his poem, Khaksan announced, "I bring to you salaams and greetings from the Mujahadeen at CAIR." He then lead the crowd

Webster's Collegiate dictionary defines Mujahideen as: "person who wages jihad: Islamic guerrilla fighters esp. in the Middle East.". Just wait you poor self-hating children.

When you get 70 lashes for dissing a mosque:
http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=22087

....you surely will get beheaded for attacking a sacred government building.

Oh and if you are a Jew, or were born to Jews, check out what your friends are telling each other about your fate (in Arabic, of course, but translated here):
http://memri.org/video/
or here...
http://www.memri.org/

Or consider this, kiddies:

A good example of the use of Koranic imagery by a secularist can be found in Arafat’s repeated reference to the “Treaty of Hudaibiya”. Yassir Arafat, speaking in Arabic, often calms his audience by telling them to be patient because he is following the example of Mohammed's Treaty of Hudaibiya with the Koreish tribe. Here Mohammed made a peace agreement with the Jewish Koreish tribe of Mecca in 628 CE who refused to accept his leadership and convert to Islam. In 2 years he returned with a strong army and slaughtered the Koreishi tribe and conquered Mecca. Arafat first revealed his obeisance to this Islamic principle in Johannesburg, May 10, 1994 when he said: "I'm not considering it [Oslo] more than the agreement which has been signed in 628 CE between the prophet Mohammed and the tribe of Koreish."

Or think about Palestinian Nationalism’s Nazi Roots:
Hajj Amin el-Husseini was appointed Mufti of Jerusalem by the British High Commissioner, in May 1921. The Mufti's virulent anti-Semitism continues to influence Arab policy toward Israel. Yasser Arafat, beginning at the age of 16, worked for the Mufti performing terrorist operations. Arafat still considers Hajj Amin el-Husseini to be his primary spiritual and political mentor, as evidenced in his comments as recently as this past August (Al Sharq al Awsat, a London Arabic daily, reprinted in the Palestinian daily Al Quds, Aug, 2, 2002): “Were they able to replace our hero Hajj Amin al-Husseini? ... There were a number of attempts to get rid of Hajj Amin, whom they considered an ally of the Nazis. But even so, he lived in Cairo, and participated in the 1948 war, and I was one of his troops.” Throughout his public career, the Mufti relied upon traditional Koranic anti-Jewish motifs (e.g. In 1929, he called for combating and slaughtering "the Jews", not merely Zionists. In fact, most of the Jewish victims of the 1929 Arab revolt were Jews from the centuries old dhimmi communities such as Hebron). The Mufti organized a brutal anti-Jewish pogrom in Baghdad (1941). Hajj Amin spent the remainder of World War II in Germany and Italy, providing active support for the Germans by recruiting Bosnian Muslims, in addition to Muslim minorities from the Caucasus, for dedicated Nazi SS units. Hajj Amin made an especially important contribution to the German war effort in Yugoslovia where the Bosnian Muslim SS units he recruited brutally suppressed local anti-Nazi resistance movements. The Mufti's objectives for these recruits, and Muslims in general, were made explicit during his multiple wartime radio broadcasts from Berlin, heard throughout the Arab world: an international campaign of genocide against the Jews. For example, during his March 1, 1944 broadcast he stated: "Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion."

Friday Sermons
http://www.memri.org/video/

Scary

Idiots of the world unite! Today an INS window tomorrow the world!

We need more actions like this.

Did you know that the John Birchers think that you guys are part of the world domination scheme of the multinational corporations?

The way they see it, the multinationals hire and sponsor losers like you to discredit reasonable and legitimate protests against their conspiracy. This way no decent person wants to be associated with the opposition to them.

I don't think it's true.

But it isn't as crazy as the crap you guys believe.

"The American people can clearly see the symbolism in the targeting of symbols of oppression (such as the INS), just as they recall the Boston Tea Party.

Criticize the oppressors, not those who stand up for the oppressed."


Oh yeah, in a country where obesity is a bigger problem than malnutrition among the poor, there are a lot of oppressed.

Idiot.

I posted a comment to the legal update page and maybe this is a better location?
I asked 'what was the point to throwing news boxes through the window ' and I really haven't found a satisfactory response. I invite common ground conversation on this question; I am not interested in arguing about whether we should support our fellow protesters. I am asking for clarification that explains WHY it is a useful choice to destroy property as a symbolic statement against war.

Somebody under the name CP wrote a comment entitled "Theory" and gave three options as an answer my question:

Option 1: Anti-lemming Approach
So the violent action of newsbox throwing allows people to practice taking drastic action rather than waiting like optimistic Jews in the ghettos of Nazi Germany. So the breakaway group is trying to show us how not to be meek followers?
OR
Option 2: The Lesser of Two Evils Theory
Do the images of masked punkers breaking windows and spay painting give Joe Q. Public a "lesser of two evils" as in the cases of MLKJr and Ghandi who had rowdier compatriots kicking ass for them in the wings?
OR
Option 3: Concrete Robin Hood
Is it the romantic vision that breakaway protesters are getting revenge "on the behalf of people in 3rd world countries who are being *killed* and maimed by our government"?

I appreciate the three options to ponder, but I am not sure I buy any of them.
Here's my paradox--
On one hand, I get irritated when I remember how the few window smashers stole the thunder at N30 in Seattle. After all the work we did to invite people from all over the west coast and then Joe Blow in Idaho sees the photos of starbucks windows smashed and still thinks we are just a bunch of raging teenagers rather than educated citizens. Joe Q Public doesn't know about class war and the corporate takover of neighborhood commerce. He sees that it's too crazy out there to get his ass in the streets. There goes my message of "another world is possible" down the toilet. I am not personally hurt, just irritated.

On one hand, I am annoyed by their passion,
and on the other hand I am also strangely excited by it.
I respect the warrior ferocity.
Wait, did I say "warrior"?
Oh yeah, this was an ANTI-war rally wasn't it?
(Please don't let my cheeky humor dissuade you from engaging in dialogue.)

This is so cool. We need to break more stuff. They'll never hear our message, untill we break some more stuff. I especially thought tipping over newspaper machines was a great statement. Oh yeah, we need to break more stuff, too. That'll show 'em.

Mystery Girl,

Another World is Possible when Another War is Possible.
End of story!

Where do I begin?
Option 1-I cannot believe you have the gall to compare yourself to the Jews. If they had the opportunity to fight back it would be that they were defending THEIR LIVES AT THAT MOMENT. You are in no way in a similar situation. The people that did the damage are home tonight laughing at their crimes.

Option 2-As you can see by the restraint of the police exhibited in letting you get away with the crimes, rich white liberals are afforded more tolerance than the civil rights leaders you mentioned. If someone broke into your suburban home tonight, you'd expect those same police to come and save your skin. Hypocrites.

Option 3-The people in the 3rd world countries could care less what you destroy in SF. They would rather see you (yes you peace protester) off the face of the earth. Do not think you are doing them any high minded favors.

Option 4-You are scouting for more thugs to join your peaceful cause. The next time you schedule a protest you will have all kinds of criminal elements running down to join you because of the way you have conducted yourself today.

you bring up some good points, and i think you answer your own question on a couple of occasions.

the anti-lemming this is important. if people think they can take control of a situation, whatever it is, this world would be a better place. hell, the only thing that makes war possible is that bottom-rung soldiers are willing to unquestionably obey the officers!

people can do many creative autonomous and effective things. they don't have to involve graffiti or broken glass, but hey...

the lesser of two evils thing is something that i believe is true. and therefore, if you're interested in making reforms, having diversity is a plus. personally, i think reforms will do us no good in the long run, so i don't much like the arguement.

one thing i don't like about your rationale is this quote.

" On one hand, I get irritated when I remember how the few window smashers stole the thunder at N30 in Seattle...There goes my message of "another world is possible" down the toilet. I am not personally hurt, just irritated."

If that is how you feel, it is up to YOU to take control of that situation. It is up to you and people who feel the same way to use all the channels that you have to get your message out there. the mass media is not our tool unless it is in our hands. therefore, we should never rely on it. we should stop pointing our fingers at each other (though open discussion is great and useful for everyone). instead, we should try to organize ourselves, pull off an action that WE think is going to be effective, and spread the word. make the case to everyone you know about WHY you think it is more effective. sit back and engage in these discussions and critically examine all the EFFECTS of the actions that you and others take. as we continually act, reevaulate, act and improve, this movement will grow in strength and diversity. in any case, most tactics that add to the diversity of the spectrum are beneficial as they generate good discussion and open up people's minds to new ideas.

one thing that i think is unacceptable is the charge that breakaway marches and property destruction are going to "alienate the masses". the people saying that need to take some action and responsibility for this if they really think thats the case. If someone breaks a window, are you not going to show up to the next protest? how is that helping anything?

instead, when someone uses a tactic that you think is useless, ineffective, or counterproductive, you should get MORE people who are like you involved, so what YOU think IS effective, etc. go to your friends and say "hey, these crazy anarchists are taking over our peace movement. lets all get out there and show them what WE can do!"

but, in doing so, please don't stoop to the level of playing the "peace police". we won't disrupt your activity if you don't disrupt ours. hell, lets support each other. wasnt' there a word for that?

oh yeah. Solidarity.

Forever!

More delicious irony!

the anti-lemming this is important.

The most lemming of creations, the anti-war demonstrator offering advice on an anti-lemming approach. This is RICH.

If that is how you feel, it is up to YOU to take control of that situation

In other words, in order for you to protest against the police you must - get this - be your own police. LMAO Oh but wait nooooo

please don't stoop to the level of playing the "peace police".

So which is it? Quick, quick make a decision or the anarchists win! Ohhh to have the luxury of free speach, free assembly to plan your protests against the very forces that protect you from enslavement.

you people have accomplished the ultimate paranoiac act. rarely have groups acted in such a lunatic way since kristallnacht. congratulations!

I know - the next time you have one of these protests you can hire Hell's Angels to do you dirty work for you. Oh! And hold your rally / march / protest at Fillmore.

The Italian Neo-Fascists have a name for this sort of thing: "The Strategy of Tension."

It's really quite simple: send a few provacateurs into the Left camp, and manipulate the dumbest and smelliest losers there into doing destructive and violent acts. This mightily pisses off the citizenry, who will call for more law and order and harder crackdowns by state security forces. These in turn create more street-level trouble, which is answered by more repression, until finally a police state is imposed, with the blessings of the vast majority of terrified and enraged citizens. And we know who controls the police and military, no?

Give yourselves a pat on the backs, O Black-Clad, Nose-Ringed, Unwashed Trustafarians! You're the hard Right's best friends and hardest-working allies!

Destro, I think you are confused. The italian strategy of tension doesn't really seem to be anyone infiltrating leftist groups and encouraging them to do one thing or any other. Strategy of tension involves anonymous carbombings or mailbombings.

I would say you need a few more months at cointelpro school before you can start dividing the movement, pig.

I think you people who gibber on about "COINTELPRO" are a little old to be playing revolutionary. Why not blame HUAC, or better yet, the Spanish Inquisition? Or how about checking out an affordable retirement plan?

<blockquote>the dumbest and smelliest losers there</blockquote>
There ya go, letting people off the hook. Although redundant of the left, the dumbest and smelliest losers there are perfectly capable of hosing the works on on their own.

For those of you in the US who wish that history will suddenly go in reverse and we head back towards the days where roundups, disappearances and ethnic cleansing are ok, wake up because your piece-of-shit INS building was smashed this weekend. Your are dust for the history books and I'm so glad for it.

This is the best you could manage? Christ on a cracker! Two Oklahoma rednecks leveled the Federal building in OKC. For that matter, a college prof in desperate need of Prozac put more fear into corporate leaders with a few mail-bombs than the lot of you combined. (And he kept the Federales stumped for 20 years, on top of that...) "Oooh, we knocked over a post, broke a newspaper box, and cracked (but didn't break) a glass door at the INS building. We're hardcore Urban Revolutionaries." Pikers, the lot of you.

And what have you, personally, done that was any better?

For those of you in the US who wish that history will suddenly go in reverse and we head back towards the days where roundups, disappearances and ethnic cleansing are ok, wake up.

I certainly don't want to go back in time (again).

your piece-of-shit INS building was smashed this weekend

Smashed? You call a bit of grafitti and some broken glass in a door smashed? (feeling like Crocodile Dundee right now)Now THIS is smashed!! DRAT! And another capitalist venture put up in its place too.

http://memri.org/video

Here's the first thing that you will think after perusing the above link:

"HA! more *biased* hate from the conservonazis!!!!"

Here's simplistic fault in your reactionary reasoning to be:
It comes out of THEY'RE mouths, and not OURS

oh, is it taken out of context? Just the words of 'fringe militant groups'? Keep fooling yourselves. These [pan-arab nations] people want a nuke so they can 'play with the big boys'. Do you really think the world is better off that way?

Oh and to that airhead who earlier stated that mexico called Mexico 'a land of justice blah blah' has obviously never been outside of cancun. And that China is an 'environmental paradise' obviously hasn't heard of the 'yellow-fog' of unchecked industrial waste that wafts over their helpless neghboring countries (far worse than what you think LA produces). What?! We all know how honest, open and free chinese press is.

Who's next on your nation-of-love list, Syria? The Paradise of human rights and women's liberation? I guess so since the US was booted off the human-rights commision favor of that despicable DICTATOR! (emphasis added since, you all seem to have forgotten what a dictator IS). Before you deny that, answer this: do you consider Castro a 'Dictator' or a 'Leader'????

Love,
eniac

If the INS is using Windows I don't know how they can get away with complaining about it being broken. Everybody knows that its full of bugs and is broken no matter how many releases they come out with.

Evidently the pop-quiz hit home a little too hard.

What am I talking about? ... only the moderator knows now....

Yes, they seem to love censorship. Strange, though, how merely quoting one of their most revered intellectual leaders elicits that censorship.

I guess Marx's doctrinal incitements against Jews are better kept a secret, lest the true nature of how they affect today's leftist stance against Israel be understood.

Die Zionist scum.

<blockquote>Eniac is a racist.
by me • Monday January 20, 2003 at 07:33 AM

Die Zionist scum</blockquote>

Awwwwww sombody needs a huuuuuggggg.

I was out the rally on Saturday and think it was a great success, but in order to truly advance out society we need to have a proactive agenda as well as a protest agenda. Here is an in-depth essay on some strategies for achieving that. It primarily gives a case for grassroots electoral organizing and explains how effective it can be.

http://www.sfgreenparty.org/news/newsitem.gem?idx=302

A quote from the essay: "Single-issue activism today is a one-step forward, two-steps back struggle. While expending great amounts of energy in order to gain even the most minor of victories, the ruling class simultaneously advances on several fronts at once. This is due in large part to a media that refuses to adequately cover progressive issues and a population that is too busy, too distracted, too isolated, too uninformed and feels too powerless to do anything. A continued focus on single-issue activism may fend off some of the worst abuses at times, but if this is the primary focus of activism we will see ourselves eventually beaten on all the issues."

You guys are so cool! I hope I'm like you when I grow up.

We of the world who are totally incapable of creating anything of significance must unite to destroy capitalism. Pacifascists of the wrold unite!

Im a foreign anarchist who has been living in the US for several years. A few days ago, I was denied reentry into the US, interrogated, photographed, fingerprinted, searched, handcuffed and boarded onto the next plane back. Its a pretty big crisis in my life. I have to pursue some more legal options before being very public with this, but more to come.
These pictures have me crying for joy.
Keep up the fight, you are in the belly of the beast, and in a better position than anyone to stop this madness.
Hasta la Victoria siempre!

Someone over there said that the breakaway protesters were comparing themselves to jews in Poland. No – please review what was really said. The appropriate comparison for US protesters could be privileged Germans in 1930. Yes, I know that it is ultimate cliché to constantly bring up Hitler Germany, but I happen to be a german dual citizen of american ethnicity, and I happen to think it is apt.
The ‘black bloc’ and a lot of modern anarchist culture/ideas came out of Germany and nearby european countries that experienced both fascism and the horrors of communism (60 million dead under Stalin?) in the 20th century. Europe doesn’t have a nonviolent tradition like the US – there’s lots of political violence, but I think that lots of europeans/germans really strive to live the ‘never again’ mantra that came from the holocaust, and they have worked through their issues of nationalism and are ultimately more pacifist than N americans.
Anarchists and democrats and democratic socialists in Germany and neighboring countries often look at the world with the perspective of ‘what would I have done if I had been around in 1932’ and there are all sorts of little tests and natural experiments that one can see in politics, and they try to prove to themselves that they are not a potential ‘good German’ or nazi. I could elaborate on the long list of countries that the US has intervened in, where millions have died or suffered as a result, yet where the National Geographic magazine recently showed that many can’t even locate the country on a map – and I can’t help but start to assign moral blame or start to think that many who are oblivious to these things done in their name have failed the ‘good German’ test. The US had full colonies in the Philippines (100,000 killed), and sort of in Cuba. Our CIA toppled democratic leaders and installed dictators in Iran, Indonesia/East Timor (1 million dead), Congo (millions starving and fighting now). Millions dead in Vietnam, 200,000 in Cambodia? From bombing before the khmer rouge. We funded death squads in central America (100,000s), and funded Savimbi in Angola during his 27 year war (death toll?). how many people in the US actually know anything about Angola or Savimbi and what was done with our money there?
What is the consequence if the peace movement fails now? Not that bombing/environmental devastation ever ended in Iraq, but when the US goes in there again, most of us will get up, eat a nice breakfast, stop somewhere for some coffee, go to a relatively unstrenuous job, pick up the kids in a nice car. I guess we can hold up the nugget fact to God at the gates of heaven that we walked down market Street with a sign so that it isn’t technically our fault that some others were killed with bullets from our taxes, and maybe we’ll still be judged as good people. Yeah.
But, US citizens will not face any violent consequences for a failure to stop the overseas war – and this is precisely what we are talking about with regards to the strong symbolic line that comes up when anyone decides to do political property destruction. Would we also judge a Vietnamese soldier, or american indian shooting back at the cavalry – Peaceful Protest! Peaceful Protest! No – it seems fundamentally different because those are other nations.
I hold the opinion that lots of Germans were in the same position that the majority in almost any nation are – basically politically powerless, and not an active member of any political party – they couldn’t have influenced power even if they mentally held the right political positions. I don’t think that ‘fascism’ or racism is naturally more ingrained in any particular culture (such as germans) than any other. Hitler wasn’t elected by a majority.
If you went around germany, most families would describe to you, like I would, that their family members had not been participants, had subtly resisted the dictatorship etc. However, you know what – the rest of the world doesn’t forgive them for this at all because what matters is the fact that these low-power slightly resisting germans failed to affect the regime and we all know about the millions who died in camps on the battlefield. To this day, people in other countries don’t care about the suffering and massively destroyed cities in Germany, and the starvation for years after the war, and we characterize all but a fraction as complicit ‘good germans’ who didn’t speak out. No one gives a damn about how ordinary common germans lost everything. It doesn’t matter that not every individual wasn’t a full fledged party member or even did minor verbal acts of resistance.
Again, what is the consequence if the peace movement fails? Will everyone else say people who mentally opposed the gov’t are okay – still good people.
In the 60s, young Germans, especially writers like Gunter Grass had an intense political/psychological rebellion against the previous generation who they considered to be complicit. Daniel Goldhagen’s book about how antisemitism is just uniquely ingrained in the german psyche and that most people were complicit and didn’t do enough, sold the most copies in Germany. I disagree with this a bit because I hold that one’s moral weight is proportional to the amount of power held in society. Most people haven’t had a chance to go to college, learn history, have no political power, have no free time in their day. However, anyone with any privilege such as wealth, college, talents etc. has a higher moral debt.
This doesn’t mean ‘any means necessary’. The question of level of tactics is a big messy, hard to answer question. The environmental movement has made a few gains via entirely nonviolent protest. I would say, that even though the peace movement still will fail to stop the war despite breaking out the INS building window, options such as hitting a police officer, or larger scale physical destruction like the radicals in the 60s sometimes did would have been wrong

Saturday 1/18 - Perform violent acts on the INS building

Tuesday 1/21 - INS building, business as usual

Till you all end up in Saddam's prisons. Being agains this potetinal war is being - -

for Saddam Hussein
for suicide bombings
for keeping Arab peoples under subjugation

How long do I get to move?

Anyone who knows family therapy knows that it is often the kids and the teens that actually display the level of neurosis and dysfunction that the parents and other adults have succumbed to on a daily basis.

We have adults in these marches and we have kids and teens.

The adults are sending polite, angry, and creative messages in ways that they don't expect will cause them any real sacrafice - aside from getting off thier couch. They've judged it is safe to head out into the streets because so many others are. They know how to add up the numbers and they are adding to the numbers to make a calculated show of strength. This is all reasonable, however, glacial, most likely, in the time it may take the change it will bring. It does have huge potential, like a retirement account.

The kids and teens don't have the frontal lobe development to 'just take it' yet, and they act out the problem . . . .

This brings the family in to therapy, whether on their own, or ordered by a judge after the family comes apart and needs help to cope legally with each other. And that's when they may become aware that they actually do need help. If it hadn't reached a crisis stage, the truth, whatever is - the incestuous uncle, the alcoholic mother, the emotionally abusive father - might not have been exposed at all.

But some times the family never goes in for therapy and the teen just gets trashed - they destroy themselves, commit suicide, and nothing changes.

So it can go either way. Personally I'm proud of each one of the people who did this march. They are being true to themselves and are responding to the darkness they see around us that most hypnotized americans are blind to. Holding signs passively is not an option for them, in the same way it is not for a teenager who's uncle has abused her, or a child whose parents are splitting up. This is the importance of this diversity. There's a reason for it.

So thanks to all of you. You're making history.

Nice. SO tell me what this nice nonviolent protest (riot?) was about? A war somewhere?

Come on people - GROW UP!

Great, now money will have to be spent to replace the broken windows. Now Bush's government will have to divert money from the welfare program to replace those windows. That's right, the "black bloc" or whatever they call themselves have now contributed to the starvation of babies of color ! You racist bastards! They have aided the Bush governments plan to kill black babies. Get it, "black bloc", that is a code name used by the minions of evil who carry out the wishes of the evil white puppet masters. This "black bloc" group is not a true soldier in the fight of oppression, rather, they are supporters of domination of people of color the world over. Now, there will be less money to help the starving African babies. You black hearted bastards!

FUCK INS
FUCK INS AGENTS
FUCK COPS WHO PROTECT INS
FUCK JOHN ASSCRUFT

VIVA LA REVOLUCION DEL TRABAJADORES!!!!!!!

Not Yet said, "Im a foreign anarchist who has been living in the US for several years. A few days ago, I was denied reentry into the US, interrogated, photographed, fingerprinted, searched, handcuffed and boarded onto the next plane back. Its a pretty big crisis in my life."

The INS caught you so they must be doing their job.

Why are these people carrying communist flags?

The graffiti is a nice touch, especially the anarchy sign. What a bunch of morons.

Your revolution has little support. Have fun with with your little get togethers and simplistic slogans though.

Click here:

http://www.sfbg.com/nessie/35.html

It's so funny to me that Indymedia finds itself in the position of unthinkingly censoring Marx himself!

I just post your godfather's words and they get censored. Why do you think you're allowed to pick and choose and still call yourself a Marxist?

Are there any other Marxian doctrines besides Jew-hating that are verboten here?

never have, never will

but if you can't address who we really are, go ahead attack a strawman

Freepers congregate online at the "freerepublic" website, which is mostly a joke since it is dictatorially censored by a small group of rabidly pro-Bush tools.

The anger and dismissiveness you see in these comments reflects their frustrations with trying to organize counter-demos. So this mostly means motivating ugly Americans to get in the streets and fight for Bush, Cheney, Exxon or whatever. Clearly, most people in the world will not get out in the streets and "protest" for something like that, exception being the massive Nazi rallies of the 1930s.

And so when they something as COURAGEOUS and momentum-building as smashing the hell out of the INS building, they commit themselves to sitting for 4 more hours in front of the computer, instead of 4 hours watching TV.

For instance, they tried to have a counter-demo in SF. I think maybe 4-5 people showed up, and they were instantly scared and ran home. Certainly none of them had the guts to come on the breakaway march to "defend the INS" snicker.

Heads up, people. For the first time since Genoa, we can actually say "we are winning" and mean it. We are rebuilding the resistance to the Police State and the War on Terror and the War on Drugs and the Class War.

And to all the pasty-faced lazy Freepers trolling our website, fuck off cowards!

Somehow I have trouble believing that you aren't 90% Marxist and 10% trash, but ok, please enlighten me as to what you are exactly. I certainly don't want to waste time attacking a strawman.

Yeah man, thats rite, fite the powa. Brkin stuff at a peece march is kewl. skrew the muthas, kastro kicks ass man! I say fuc em cuase that bus is a no gud mutha fuca. if i didnt hav a trust fund that bastid wud be stealin my muny. later bros. i gotta get to klas her at collige

Partisan, Marx was wrong.

Just ask the average person in Russia, Albania China, North Korea.

Cpitalism is just a messy random process of playing the game of free economy. It's not a controlled system.

Some of the biggest companies in the world 20 years ago are almost out of business (Birmingham Steel). Some of the biggest companies today weren't even in existence 30 years ago (Oracle, Microsoft). Think about that for a minute: this "corporate controlled" status hangs by a thread at all times, fortunes come and go.

And all those corporations you want to smash put bread on a lot of tables.

You can learn to how to flourish in this random competition that is America.
You want to take what belongs to another and give it to yourself and others, and when there's nothing left, the slavery of the party begins, and the apparatchiks and party bosses become exact duplicates of the capitalists they overthrew.
You have it in you , I can tell by your hatred, to be as brutal and cruel as any guy who began a software company. But I am convinced you see yourself as morally superior. self-righteousness.

Fundamentally, you all have it backwards. Capitalism has to be allowed to commit its random selection (like your boy Darwin said) so that the economy can do the greatest good. State control leads to starvation and failure, and entropy. The proof is in history.

Deep down, you know I'm right. I admire the desire to see a just world, but you'll never achieve it by murdering the successful.

Remember, while you're sitting there with bloodlust for the wealthy, that at any given moment, their kids can die of cancer, their spouses might die in a collapsing building... they can give it all up and go itno the hurting parts of the world... In other words, they are not immune from the human condition. They can suffer too, and DO!!
I'd rather have an old capitalist with ideas about how to create a new business working in the developing world to create jobs and new hope, than a guy telling them to submit to a discredited totalitarian system where they trade poverty for slavery.

That was the realization (along with reading Orwell, Shaw, and J S Mill) that convinced me that our imperfect free society is still the best way to go. It has processes in place, at least, that allow for change and correction.

I know I'm about to get attacked, but please note you'll be attacking a worker who is poor, and who works with the poor almost every day, and they want to SUCCEED, not make everyone else FAIL.

"The American people can clearly see the symbolism in the targeting of symbols of oppression (such as the INS), just as they recall the Boston Tea Party.

Criticize the oppressors, not those who stand up for the oppressed."

For as long as polls have been kept on the subject a majority of Americans have OPPOSED immigration that results in fracturing America into opposing ethnic groups. How in the hell are "The American People" going to identify with this juvenile act, when your values are miles apart from the majority of Americans?

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.

Anarchist violence only more appropriately illustrates the myopic idiocy of your baseless arguments.

You cannot post racist propaganda here, no matter who you quote. We don't care if it's Karl Mark, Adolph Hitler or Hershel Krustofski. Whoever said it, it's not allowed on this site. It will be removed immediately.

If you see any that we missed, please write and tell us. Include the URL.

imc-sf-editorial [at] indymedia.org

I consider myself an anarchist and don't agree with some of what Marx wrote, but I tend to find that I have more in common with most people who call themselves Marxist than with many who call themselves anarchists.

As for Marxists stabbing anarchists in the back, I really havn't seen much of that. There have been quite a few really negative people who call themselves anarchists trying to undermine various antiwar groups but that only goes to show that sectarianism has now become worse in anarchist communities than it ever really was in Communist groups.

As much as the INS sucks and is not doing it's job I have to give them two thumbs up for keeping out Anarchist scum like you.

I agree with you James! Red China may be a suitable place for this person.

The INS is carrying out the racist policies of the appointed, unelected administration. Every freedom-loving patriot was right there with you in spirit. Ignore the COINTELPRO trolls posing as protestors. It's clear the mainstream media isn't reporting this action, because of it's powerful message that racism won't be tolerated as U.S. policy.

I am sorry you feel that way, but you are wrong. Capitalism is reaching it's peak of development, if not from the near total expansion of market forces, then because of the weapons of mass destruction being perfected by the murderers and "patriots" of the state-CAPITALIST industrial complex (capitalism IS war), that may one day destroy us all. At this time we have the technology available to cloth, feed, and care for medically all of the world's population, yet the leaders, always seeking higher profits and ultimately POWER, continue to use fear of starvation and suffering to keep the population in control and producing wealth for them. Fear and paranoia is capital's more fearsome weapon against the proletariat, fears of "terrorism" of "communism" of "fascism" of starvation, weakness, helplessness, etc. For capital, not only is the goal to create the highest profits through commodity production, creating things which poison our bodies, their goal is to also manufacture ideas to poison our MINDS, and leave us mentally crippled and under their control. Ideological warfare is being waged against us daily through government propoganda and capitalist mass media, used to control our desires and deeds. We are PRORGAMMED to consume and produce, not for ourselves, but for THEM. We are programmed to go and fight their wars for their benefit, while we, the proletariat, are their cannon fodder. Well I say enough! Organize and throw a wrench in the war machine that IS CAPITALISM!

1773: I'm so upset! Me and my group of friends were peacefully protesting the current British situation, when a band of unruly protesters ruined our message!

They dressed up as Mohegan Indians, not even wearing thier proper clothing to show who they were!

Then, they went onto private property, and destroyed boxes of tea! Threw it into the Bay!

It's acts like this that take away from the letter writing campaigns to get the British out of America. Those rascals!

the movement against this impending war needs to grow in numbers.

the movement against this impending war needs to get real about strategy.

Bush could be excused for thinking that last week-end's demonstrations were simply a mobilization of his Democratic Party opponents: "These aren't people who're gonna vote for me anyway. I'll let them blow off steam and point to their "freedom" to demonstrate as an example of what makes this country great. Most of these suckas believe in petitioning "their" government to make capitalism nice--they won't raise the stakes, so why worry? HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!"

Did this page get on free republic or something.
Rage, Love, and Food

Your bark is loud but your bite is weak. You do realize that your vile and lying rhetoric has no place outside cyber-space, don't you? The Free Republic people couldn't even manage to get togeather more then half a dozen people for the anti-war march on saturday, which just shows how completely feeble and pathetic you and that bunch are. Your arguments can only come down to insults and out and out LIES about others. You are an irrelevancy, and combating your pathetic attempts at sabatoging this site are a mere nusence. But go ahead, keep repeating your lies that anti-israeli occupation activism is anti-semitic, that class conflict is dead, that capitalism is the final stage of human development, while we continue to grow and strengthen, and slip through your fat fingers. Because you know what? We are more creative and more intelligent then you will ever be, and we are right.

Thanks, SF Anarchists! by Donna from Phoeni

It's clear the mainstream media isn't reporting this action, because of it's powerful message that racism won't be tolerated as U.S. policy.

With talking heads such as "Shakedown" Jesse "I've never seen a situation where I can't play the race card to MY personal advantage" Jackson, Al "Al "Jew baiter" Sharpton and a stellar supporting cast I really don't think I want my name associated with your cause, thank you very much.

"You cannot post racist propaganda here, no matter who you quote. We don't care if it's Karl Mark, Adolph Hitler or Hershel Krustofski. Whoever said it, it's not allowed on this site. It will be removed immediately."

This stance is exactly what allows you morally and intellectually bankrupt people pretend that Stalin and Hitler were qualitatively different in their impact on humanity. As long as this reified concept of "RACISM" is perpetuated by the left, it excuses its overwhelming contribution to the last century's misery. One which goes way beyond Stalin.

Not to mention, it gets to persist in the lie that Hitler was "right-wing", when he was merely yet another socialist with an unhealthy fixation on ethnic nationalism.

But this latter tendency dovetails nicely with your true reason for censoring Karl Marx, who is the very Moses of your movement. You don't want people, least of all your activist drones, to know the inconsistency and evil of your doctrine.

Attribute views to your opponent which they don't hold. You would think these guys learned legitimate debate techniques after the age of 12 but of course these people are social DEGENERATES, so what can you expect?

By the way, if all racist rhetoric is to be censored here, will this quote by Noam Chomsky, another one of your intellectual heroes, make the cut?

"I see no anti-Semitic implication in the denial of the existence in gas chambers or even in the denial of the Holocaust.” -- Noam Chomsky

Fabricated quotes by Alan M. Dershowitz aren't going to pass for much here.

LittleGreenFootball
by partisan

<blockquote>capitalism IS war</blockquote> I'll assume you understand my work. Capitalism is nothing more than survival of the fittest. If you aren't hunter than you are prey. Besides, the poor "prey" in this country are so tasty with all the fat they store. That certainly isn't common in truly poor nations.
<blockquote>creating things which poison our bodies</blockquote> Like the vaccines against ohhhhh polio, like cancer research, like the computer you using to enter your socialist propaganda - things like that?

<blockquote>their goal is to also manufacture ideas to poison our MINDS, and leave us mentally crippled and under their control.</blockquote> Which is why it is illegal for you to post the your current complaints and fantasies, right? Eat another mushroom, Alice.

<blockquote>We are PRORGAMMED to consume and produce</blockquote> And you can suggest something more meaningful? In case you didn't notice, the rest of your socialist / communist models haven't faired so well. The common denominator is human greed. EVERYBODY has it. There is no Utopia because there will always be people like me to oppose you. Ain't that a pisser?

<blockquote>We are programmed to go and fight their wars for their benefit</blockquote> And you derive no benefits yourself? You will deny yourself such benefits? You decieve yourself if you say you do because you don't know the entire picture.
<blockquote>Organize and throw a wrench in the war machine that IS CAPITALISM! </blockquote> "I pledge allegience to the flag of the United States of America and to the <b>REPUBLIC</b>…" which is what allows you the freedom to be a blind utopian idiot.

Oh this is rich! He is now attributing the disproven and elitist theories of "social darwinism" by Herbert Spencer to the scientific Charles Darwin! This is getting more and more hilarious!

Are you kidding? They're dumber than I am.

Well, that's a legitimate debate technique. Just assert it didn't happen, and you're done.

Werner Cohn
British Union of Fascists
Google search on Faurisson, the Holocaust revisionist, and Chomsky, who penned the forward to one of Faurisson's Holocaust denial books

But I suppose this is all COINTELPRO propaganda.

Sorry, a correction:

British Union of Fascists

By the way, the above page used to have explicit mention of Chomsky's support for Faurisson, but Chomsky or someone else agitated to have that part removed.

Disproven? Isn't the moribund comedy that is your movement juxtaposed against the new American embrace of neoconservatism proof of the elegant truth of Social Darwinisn?

His Right to Say It

http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/articles/8102-right-to-say.html

uh, Chomsky wrote a pro-free speech piece about Faurisson - that is the content of his forward. He is explicit about the fact that he holds Faurisson's work to be false but that the government shouldn't censor his work, and that anyone who wishes should be able to read Faurisson's bad scholarship, note that it is wrong and false, and then move on rather than give Faurisson some false publicity as a victim of censorship. It's not that difficult to comprehend - pretty standard first amendment stuff.

In addition, you keep throwing around these statements like "you anarchists believe X" and then saying that they support North Korea and socialist style government. Well, there are quite a few anarchists around here who are able to express what their position is (which definitely isn't communism) and it is ridiculous for you to insist on falsely characterizing their positions for them - they're right here in the room to do that themselves. You are basically talking to yourself if you tell someone "you believe this" and they say "no I don't" and you insist "yes you do" - that's not a dialogue.

Chomsky never supported Faurisson. He supported Faurisson's right to publish.

Collective denial seems to be the continuing trend of the conservative right. My god, you would think they didn't even notice the hundreds of thousands out protesting the possibility of war this weekend.

I was waiting for you to drop that tired line on me.

I close the case book on the invincible stupidity of you and your movement. Keep shrying about class conflict, racism, imperialism and whatever else. It's real convincing coming from an intellect which thinks that Chomsky, who dedicates his entire professional life to calumniating Israel, while ignoring the whole harlequin kaleidoscope of human rights travesties throughout the third world, and moreover engages in revisionism to cover up Palestinian, Cambodian, Chinese and Soviet atrocities, chooses to pen the prologue to a Holocaust revisionist's propaganda tome, as opposed to the rants of one of a million other of the world's lunatics, is merely doing so to make a statement in favor of free speech.

Long live the "movement". Bush and Sharon must be quaking in their bunkers.

Behind the Placards
The odd and troubling origins of today’s anti-war movement
by David Corn


FREE MUMIA. FREE THE CUBAN 5. FREE JAMIL AL-AMIN (that’s H. Rap Brown, the former Black Panther convicted in March of killing a sheriff’s deputy in 2000). And free Leonard Peltier. Also, defeat Zionism. And, while we’re at it, let’s bring the capitalist system to a halt.

The IAC, another WWP offshoot, was a key partner with ANSWER in promoting the protest. It was founded by Ramsey Clark, attorney general for President Lyndon Johnson in the 1960s. For years, Clark has been on a bizarre political odyssey, much of the time in sync with the Workers World Party. As an attorney, he has represented Lyndon LaRouche, the leader of a political cult. He has defended Serbian war criminal Radovan Karadzic and Pastor Elizaphan Ntakirutimana, who was accused of participating in the genocide in Rwanda in 1994. Clark is also a member of the International Committee To Defend Slobodan Milosevic.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?V2FD52923

Sorry, blew my grammar. Let's try again:

I was waiting for you to drop that tired line on me.

I close the case book on the invincible stupidity of you and your movement. Keep shrying about class conflict, racism, imperialism and whatever else. It's real convincing coming from an intellect which thinks that Chomsky, who dedicates his entire professional life to calumniating Israel, while ignoring the whole harlequin kaleidoscope of human rights travesties throughout the third world, and moreover engages in revisionism to cover up Palestinian, Cambodian, Chinese and Soviet atrocities, chooses to pen the prologue to a Holocaust revisionist's propaganda tome, as opposed to the rants of one of a million other of the world's lunatics, merely to make a statement in favor of free speech.

Long live the "movement". Bush and Sharon must be quaking in their bunkers.

You would rather he followed the herd of cowardly intellectuals bashing the atrocities of others, which have already been widely condemed, so as to clog the channels for exposure of US perpetrated and supported state terrorist operations and atrocities? I suppose that one should not be a watch dog of his own countries actions as well? I see where you are going now, but sad to say that there are already thousands like you. I'd suggest a diffrent day job, like picking up garbage.

Damn, I just can't stop feeding you trolls.

"Collective denial seems to be the continuing trend of the conservative right. My god, you would think they didn't even notice the hundreds of thousands out protesting the possibility of war this weekend."

Did you notice the election this past November?

And you had hundreds of hundreds of protesters out. But hey, keep fantasizing while looking at the ANSWER web site's suspiciously narrow-angle photos.

"In addition, you keep throwing around these statements like "you anarchists believe X" and then saying that they support North Korea and socialist style government. Well, there are quite a few anarchists around here who are able to express what their position is (which definitely isn't communism) and it is ridiculous for you to insist on falsely characterizing their positions for them - they're right here in the room to do that themselves. You are basically talking to yourself if you tell someone "you believe this" and they say "no I don't" and you insist "yes you do" - that's not a dialogue."

This is a web forum dedicated to praising a protest organized by a patently pro-socialist group, the International Action Committee. Duh, if you want to avoid being conflated with socialists, maybe you should start by not being mobilized by them, supporting the worst socialist regimes, and parroting their doctrine to a T.

Why don't you articulate the anarchist platform vis a viz the Iraq war, then?

First of all

My god, you would think they didn't even notice the hundreds of thousands out protesting the possibility of war this weekend.

In a world of 6.5 billion people, so what? Considering the reputation of you Hate / Assburied types, you should be easily ignored. A tad difficult for you to grasp but I as using the analogy in a more base (and broader) form. From The psych departmet at Colorado U.

advances in anthropology also discredited social Darwinism. German American anthropologist Franz Boas and American anthropologists Margaret Mead and Ruth Benedict showed that human culture sets people apart from animals.

Oh it may be culture but, if so, it's been cultural throughout recorded history. Every culture has witnessed the culling of the weak via whatever system you choose. And my contribution to Darwinism is making a surprising comeback don't you think?

In the early 1970s American psychologist Richard J. Herrnstein revived the social Darwinist argument that intelligence is mostly determined by biology rather than by environmental influences.

All of this to say that humanity is, whether due to culture or breeding, is selfish and self-centered. It is a dog-eat-dog world and your utopian ideals will be the next dogfood on the menu.

To all those who say that the breakaway march is alienating the mainstream, or to those who are "sad to see this type of destruction in the peace movement."

Are you going to come to the next ANSWER march?

If not, you are only alienating yourselves.
Are you going to stay home next time there's a protest, tell you friends to stay home, and then come on indymedia and say, "see guys, you alienated us. we're staying home today to stop this war."

There is no logic in this. This is what an ideology like pacifism or any other is capable of. It makes people stop thinking critically.

Actions should always be judged by their EFFECT(S). Not on some moral principle.

If you truly believe that non-violence is the best TACTIC, then you should be organizing for an effective non-violent movement. Show the people doing property destruction that it can work. Tell your friends to come out next time in LARGER numbers. If they actually ARE alienated by a little broken glass and graffiti, why not take the responsibility YOURSELF to make them feel more comfortable. or are you uncapable of acting for yourselves and organizing yourselves?

Is that why you're dependent on a front group for the Stalinist WWP (ANSWER) to pay for the buses to get you into town or on the streets?

as long as you are sheep, you will always be playing follow the leader, and eating the shitty grass that the big rams leave behind.

think for yourselves and act for yourselves

Well as you can see, times change. But do what every good conservative does, revel in the past, the "good old days," or what ever you like to call them. However, I would be worried about the present, like the Bush administration using capitalist economic policies which were proven failures 20 years ago, and planning imperialist actions which will result in the slaughter of thousands and the continued oppression of even more after the US raises it's stars and stripes in Iraq.

And btw, the only "troll" here is you. I would keep on "feeding you" but you have become boring and stale. I think I'll attend to some more important matters.

Without their "voluntary servitude" the leader would be impotent. As Gandhi points out:

Even the most despotic government cannot stand except for the consent of the governed which consent is often forcibly procured by the despot. Immediately the subject ceases to fear the despotic force, his power is gone (Gandhi, 1980, p.27)

In actual practice, the withdrawal of co-operation takes the form of civil disobedience, strikes, occupations, boycotts, and a general mass non-compliance with the wishes of the oppressor. [Gene Sharp (1973) has documented over 200 successful techniques of nonviolent resistance.] In the great Indian strike or hartel of 1930 against the Salt Laws, for example, virtually the entire subcontinent was shut down and British rule paralyzed (Bondurant, 1958).

It seems odd to me that a defender of the current set-up would want to bring attention to an election in which the victorious party won with all of 17% of the eligible electorate.

Your shit-democracy is a joke, mr. babeuf, and so are you.

Get out there and break shit. Violence is an end in itself. All that exist, deserves to perish.

A peaceful revolution is better by far. But let's face it, sometimes violence does work when the oppressive rich take it too far--- look at the French Revolution--- ha, ha, heads literally rolled! Who could feel sorry for the aristocrats who had such haughty, careless, self-indulging attitudes and said words such as "Let them eat cake" with regards to the starving masses? What about in Romania, when the whole country was held hostage by what's-his-face and his wife in the 80's--- another King Louis-and-Antoinette couple, but even worse? I remember reading in Traveller magazine about how they had the whole population under strict control, forcing them on "diets" (no meat, no wine--- that was all kept for the "royalty" or exported to make $$ for the corrupt couple and their henchmen), the people had no electricity, no internet, no nothing really, couldn't go anywhere, and I thought to myself, how come there wasn't a revolt? Sure enough, it only took another year of that and they were executed by the people and the castle was overrun. I hope it doesn't come to that!

Honestly, when I heard about this rampage on Saturday night from a friend who happened to see it as she was walking back to BART from the ANSWER rally, I really was sad. I mean, the emotion of sadness actually swept over me for a few hours.

I thought to myself, "here we go, the day would have been almost perfect, but maybe its the end of the peace movement already." I mean, I was out there with many of my friends that day - we came as a group of almost 30 - and we were all out there because we are opposed to violence in all its forms, and we see war as being the utmost form of violence.

But I have to admit. I've been struggling the past few days, reading post after post on indymedia, and though I still feel I could NEVER do anything like this myself, I have to say, the arguments for these actions are well reasoned, intelligent, and simply must be considered.

I just thought the anarchists that have had so much attention since Seattle were a bunch of punks, with too much teenage angst out for a good time.

One of the tenants of my philosophy is that people should always struggle not to dehumanize others. I think it is what allows violence to be possible. But I was talking to a buddy at work yesterday about what happened, and he said, "hey graham, have you ever TRIED to look at it from the other side? I mean, don't you think you're dehumanizing THEM by not even trying to listen to their viewpoint? you're always talking about that right?"

This really got me thinking. My buddy's not even the political type at all. Usually I can tell that he just gets sick of listening to me every day when i come into work saying, "you won't believe what they're doing now!" (I just can't help myself sometimes) But he's right. He may have helped me make one of the biggest changes in my politics in my life.

I guess sometimes its good just to step back and reevaulate things. Sometimes its so easy to get swept up in your own thinking - especially when you're in the minority - that you don't have a chance to do this. Its just really hard. You get used to defending yourself against rightwingers all the time and that turns into getting used to defending yourself endlessly against anyone you're arguing with.

So after Wayne finished putting me in check, a few hours later, a few muslim guys came to the counter to order a couple of coffee. I took their order, and when I was filling up their cups I overheard a piece of their conversation. One of them was saying to the other "You wouldn't believe it!!! I swear, I was walking by there last night and the whole front of the building was trashed!! The windows were broken, there was spray paint on the walls, i can't remember exactly what it said...have you heard anything about this? Someone must've done it during that big march yesterday. Yusuf is gonna love it when he hears about this!"

anyway, that just topped it off. I mean, these guys were really excited about this. Hell, I went to a few of those protests down there the other week, but I never really thought of what it must be like to feel like you're at risk of being detained.

I don't think these actions alone will have any real affect of the INS process or on government policy, but I just can't write them off anymore.

I guess different people just have different ways of doing things. If we can stick together on this we'll be stronger.

PEACE :-)

Pacifist: you made efforts to see the point of view of those that broke windows. I want to ask you to think through something with me here.

Those that believe in our democracy, believe in capitalism as a system (a random process of free market), seem to me to be dehumanized on this site.

There are so many "capitalists," or people that started small businesses with a dream and a loan and a lot of hard work, that ended up succeeding. On the way they gave a lot of people jobs. Then they maybe gave to charity... a lot do!!

Yes they might end up with a lot of stuff, and buy things, and all that... but aren't they human? how do you know they didn't start out in very hard circumstances? It bugs me to think of a someone growing up really well-off, going to a good school, then adopting anarchic/Marxist ideas only to despise a man, who may have come from very hard beginnings, because he built a business.

My perception is, as a person on this site for the very first time, is that Partisan and others realy really hate capitalism, and average Americans that subscribe to the basic ideas in it. But capitalism is very much like anarchy, because it is unregulated... what is anarchy but extreme "laissez faire"? Marxism, communism, socialism all demand that a state authority impose brute force (fascism) to control society. (I know that small communal arrangements can work without violence )
Now maybe I only have a partial picture but from what I am reading I see a lot of hatred for the well-off, no matter how they began, hatred for the military, the police, the INS, the republicans... all as though they aren't human?
"Nothing human is alien to me" Oscar Wilde

I know that in response to what I have written will be angry screeds saying that the republicans aren't human, but to me that lie is what keeps ideas from transferring... if you want to influence someone, you can't tell them they are worthless.

Every one has value, everyone.

I have seen people who held a person in contempt soften when they heard that person's full story, how they give to others, what they came though growing up... but that just doesn't seem to matter to some

And communists expolit. And Anarchists exploit. And on and on and on.

Tell me what's worse. Shooting someone dead because they disagree with you (like Stalin and Mao) or making a profit? Is making a profit evil?


When you say that they exploit what do you mean? Is hiring people exploitation? I agree that sweatshops and union busting are bad things. Most people aren't in sweatshops.

But most of the places where there are sweatshops and no collective bargaining are in communist countries. If China is the worker's paradise...

Capitalism is bad. And everything else is much worse.

None of you that hate capitalism have spent much time in Russia talking to the people there, I am assuming.

I suggest you read Hernando de Soto. Peruvian man who has done much to help hurting and suffering people. He has good ideas. Much smarter than Marx.

We don't function in an "open-market" society where things are ever "random." We have huge oligarchies, monopolies, and a buddy-buddy pork barrel government that all work together to stiffle competition in many key markets.
Believe me, nobody is more hostile to real capitalism than GWB and Co. It would mean the end of their crappy little uninventive and sleazy business techniques. It would mean smart men and women with creative minds would have even more of an advantage. It might even mean more smart men and women would come and replace the dufus act we have in the White House.

For more info.. http://www.cato.org

No we don't, not people, anyway. Not exploiting people is the very heart, core and essence of what anarchism is all about. It's one of the very few things upon which we all agree.

We do exploit situations and terrain, though, as well as sheer luck, appropriate technologyl and also our enemies' weaknesses.

And we’re getting better at all of them, too.

I am disgusted, but not surprised at the spoiled brats that think smashing things helps their cause. It NEVER helps -- only convinces people you are nuts

>People who work make beer, cars and music. >Company owners don't.

Beer, cars, and music are all produced using capital, and can't be without it, with the exception of a capella music.

>Therefore it's ridiculous to say that someone who >criticizes 'capitalism' is a hypocrite for drinking beer.

Unless you made it yourself, you are supporting capitalism.

>is a criticism of 'capital' controlled economics, and >started during the late 1800s - it's not a criticism of >people making things and running their own >businesses,

All businesses require capital, so if you run your own business, you are a capitalist.



>The internet existed long before any commercial >company invented spam emails or popup ads, and >could continue to exist if all these things went away.

The internet existed because of the military, of which I'm sure you're a HUGE fan.

>Computers could also exist w/o Bill Gates.

But not for the masses, and not without some other source of capital

well, that's not what people carrying 'anticapitalist' signs are criticizing. This is bringing it down to semantics, but I think that the majority of people who hear the word 'capitalist' infer a connotation of big capital with one or a few owners at the top who don't engage in much work, not small or medium sized businesses - the type of large sums of money that started being thrown around during the industrial era that started in the 1800s that typical citizens would not have access to via loans. There are other options - a number of large operations in the US were bought out by their employees who became the owners who hired managers as coordinators - these aren't capitalist. Very few of the breakaway march people who had an anticapitalist message were criticizing any sort of small business because anarchists tend to envision a world of small independent businesses plus employee owned larger businesses. The capitalist isn't necessary for things to work.

Capitalists do not "give jobs" to people, they acquire means of production and profit (humans, land, material). People can survive without a job, as they did for thousands of years. Corporations cannot survive without employees; therefore, capitalism only provides an unnecessary condition that serves solely to perpetuate its self. Charitable contributions become unnecessary in a society where everything is shared and everyone works for everyone - Capitalism gives nothing, but creates endless need, then pats itself on the back by re-giving a fraction of what it takes.

i know dude! like that boston tea party, what was that all about? where did that get us? jeez. compliance and non-resistance is the way to go. i mean did the slaves ever revolt before lincoln 'set them free'? thats not what the history books say.

What a fucking excellent showing, yall!!!!

good job!!!!

Lets discuss a few points of fact.

Communisim does not work. Mother russia figured this out. It looks great on paper but in reality it sucks.

None of you want to live in a shithole communist nation. Unless your one of the little piggies that is more equal than the rest. Fuck the collective. I;m not going to grow rice for a meager cut and a water buffalo..

China is a dying communist state, the killer is the dollar. The upper class doesn't cruise around in a proletariat shit box, they own mercedes 500 sl's, lear jets, and consume like it is going out of style.

Any dipshit can start a company and sell chia pets and george foreman grills and make a killing. You think that works in N. Korea.

Guess that is why the weathy of the world cruise over to the Mayo clinic and Duke for medical care rather than stay at home. Funny, you can go to the same place, no bribes or anything..

There is no greener grass, well in amsterdam but you gotta have goals..

To these analyses, we can only add the following considerations, on the basis of the development of
postwar imperialism:

1. Although the oldest capitalist zones (England, France, the U.S.) also continue to grow, their curve
never inflects, but the average rates of growth are continually declining.

2. The U.S. operates a whole series of productive sectors on a monopoly basis (e.g.
telecommunications, the Internet), which guarantee increased super-profits and makes possible the
creation of an enormous balance-of-payments deficit. The European Union's loans to the U.S. are based
on the promise of future payments in dollars and on the fact that interest payments on foreign capital
invested in the U.S. are made in dollars.

3. The “globalizing” network, in its brute reality, is that which attracts the European economies in an
iron grip toward the U.S. precisely because of the super-profits which the U.S. are still able to
guarantee, especially through the control it maintains over international financial flows and thanks to
the preeminent role of the dollar in the international system of payments.

4. For their part the U.S. fulfill their role as international policemen, making possible repositioning,
more or less mandatory, of capitals in the world arena, using every type of apparatus or organization of
international control and of an internal market whose absorbtive capacity, while enormous, 7 (it was no
accident that consumer credit was invented in the U.S.) can only exhaust itself, in spite of the infinity of media persuaders, with the sharpening of the crisis of overproduction and the increasing rates of unemployment. The current crisis, which elicits copious tears from various winners of the Nobel Prize for economics and which again and again brings down interest rates, (reflecting the tendencial fall of the average rate of profit in the world economy), cannot fail to have long-term consequences both at home and abroad (Europe) for the American power.

At the end of the post-war cycle, therefore, the lesson to be drawn from this drugged economy is the
following. Since its progressive surge already came to an end a century ago, it can only set in motion
two systems of accumulation, based on public debt and bank credit respectively. In both cases, it is
nothing but an enormous process of surplus-value extraction, carried out under the laws of the most
democratic and civil states: pacifist by definition, fascist in fact.

From: A Critique of the Anti-Globalization Movement - il programma comunista

http://www.ilprogrammacomunista.com/pdf/stampa/A%20Critique%20of%20the%20Anti-Globalization%20Movement.pdf

I could argue your points by citing people like smith and other economic theorists.

I find this arguement better. No West german ever took an ak round to get to east germany. South koreans don't try to escape. No boat people leave miami for havanna. Why you ask, because communisim is an abortion. I have an economic background and can argue in that language but simplicity works best.

Smith was one of the the first to describe capitalist economics, and he was accurate in some of his observations, explaining how the key role of the state was preventing (terrorizing) the poor masses from rebelling against the rich. Smith's theories came before Marx, and were admired to a degree by Marx. Marx looked at the economic theories of all those before him and expanded on them, finally explaining the core of capitalist economics, surplus value, and how it was generated, by extracting it from labour.

Marx was a materialist whose theories are based on his observations of capitalism in Europe. Marx theorized that capitalism would expand and monopolize, resuliting in war and a widening gap between the haves and have-nots, and that the ever expanding class, the proletariat, would bring revolution and usher human society into it's next phase, communism. Smith was a moralist believing in the self-regulation or "invisable hand," which would prevent capitalist catastrophy, that man's "self interest" was all that was needed. Obviously, one of them has been proven wrong, and looking at the world today, I think people can generally agree on which one.

Wealth depends on division of labour, that depends on accumulation of stock, and that depends on profitability: so government's best contribution to the wealth of the nation is to leave individuals free to find the most profitable employment of their labour or capital." smith. Sound like commie crap, no. Communisim acts against natural balance in economics and mathamatical systems. Lenin and Stalin did a great job"protecting" the massses. Purge...West Germany never gut shot anyone trying to escape and left them to die in razor wire. Took that guy 4 hours to bleed to death.

Communisim left brown stains on the bowl, once those stains wash off the world will be a better place.

Basically, communisim sucks and you live in a cozy western nation. Go starve in N. Korea and report back in a year on the joys of communist life. BBC says they are going cannibal, sounds yummy.

Have any of you actually "The Wealth of Nations", Smith was not by any means a libertarian and in the entire nearly 1000 page book the words "invisible hand" appear exactly one...

Smith supported public spending for the public rather than the English royalty (in a way this would argue more against trickle down economics than against the modern welfare state). He was very opposed to barriers to international trade (again only in most rather than all cases since he wasnt nearly as simplistic as the people who quote him).

Smith was watching specialization start in various industries when he wrote his book so of course thats also a topic...

Marx drew a lot of his ideas from Smith and Ricardo and there are very few (if any) real contradictions between their works...

Smith believed that capitalism would best function when the state only interviened to prevent rebellion of the poor (through state terror), and at his time, this was correct, but for the last 100 years this has not been true. The state does not merely function to protect capitalist property relations (oppression of the working class for the benefit of the capitalist), the state had to get involved in capitalist economics to continue it's viability as an economic system, in a limited way healing the contradictions within capitalism. This can be seen over and over again during capitalist crisii, it's most modern form being international monopoly capitalism (globalization) and state regulation, mixed with "free trade" economics. You are just repeating simplistic Smith theories which for the most part are outdated and have not survived the test of time. Marx's theories on the other hand continue to be proven true. Capitalist warfare continues to ravage, with higher and higher numbers of people slaughtered. The gap between rich and poor continues to grow, and corporate monoplies continue to grow bigger and spread internationally.

On your other point, that communism has failed, you take for granted the assumption that the USSR, China, etc. and examples of communism, which we could debate if you like.

I assume you are either a small business owner or perhaps management. It is natural that you would cling to such backwards theories, because you are a group which is being eliminated daily. Don't blame us however, it's capitalism.

What are the common wages of labour depends everywhere upon the contract usually made between [masters and workman], whose interests are by no means the same. The workmen desire to get as much, the masters to give as little as possible . . . It is not, however, difficult to foresee which of the two parties must, upon all ordinary occasions, have the advantage in the dispute, and force the other into a compliance with their terms. The masters, being fewer in number, can combine much more easily . . . We have no acts of parliament against combining to lower the price of work; but many against combining to raise it. In all such disputes the masters can hold out much longer.
We rarely hear, it has been said, of the combinations of masters; though frequently of those of workmen. But whoever imagines, upon this account, that masters rarely combine, is as ignorant of the world as of the subject. Masters are always and everywhere in a sort of tacit, but constant and uniform combination, not to raise the wages of labour above their actual rate . . . We seldom, indeed, hear of this combination, because it is . . . the natural state of things which nobody ever hears of. . . . But whether [the workman's] combinations be offensive or defensive, they are always abundantly heard of. In order to bring the point to a speedy decision, they have always recourse to the loudest clamour, and sometimes to the most shocking violence and outrage. They are desperate, and act with the folly and extravagance of desperate men, who must either starve, or frighten their masters into an immediate compliance with their demands. The masters . . . never cease to call aloud for the assistance of the civil magistrate, and the rigorous execution of those laws which have been enacted with so much severity against the combinations of servants, labourers, and journeymen. The workmen, accordingly, very seldom derive any advantage . . . but the punishment or ruin of the ringleaders.

Adam Smith
Wealth Of Nations
http://www.bibliomania.com/2/1/65/112/7044/1/frameset.html

I hoped to avoid this arguement but here goes.

The USSR evolved from an attempt to implement what I will call marxist theory into something different. Marx's theories are not stable. If you step away and look at the math involved you will see that a closed system seeks equilibrium. The marxist theory and lenin's implementation do not allow this. Call it human nature. It is unnatural to equally compensate people based on a collective system. It does not promote growth or improvement. The system stagnates. The ability to attain personal wealth and recognition is key to capatilisim.

I'm neither. I classify myself as specialized labor. Labor/skill is a commodity, the trick is to be on the right tail of the bell curve.

Adam Smith recognized the worker-capitalist relation, and for this reason stated clearly that the state's purpose was to maintain property rights and prevent rebellion of the poor, while offering limited public services. I don't think these theories could be compariable to that of modern welfare states, though. Like his quote above, he says that the working class is common to rebel, even in violent acts, but he doesn't advocate working class power, but the opposite.

1) Phase of transition

This phase is characterised politically by the Dictatorship of the Proletariat; economically by a survival of forms specifically linked to capitalism, i.e., a mercantile distribution of products, also large-scale industry, and, in certain sectors, above all in agriculture, some small production. The proletarian power can overcome these forms only by despotic measures, i.e., the passing under its control of all sectors already of a social and collective nature (large-scale industry, agriculture and trade, transport etc.,) and by setting up a vast distribution network independent from private commerce, but still functioning, at least to begin with, according to mercantile criteria. In this phase, however, the duties of the military struggle take priority over social and economic reorganization, unless, against any reasonable expectation, the class which has been overthrown internally and menaced externally renounces armed resistance.

The duration of this phase depends, on the one hand, on the scale of difficulties the capitalist class will create for the revolutionary proletariat, and, on the other hand, on the amount of reorganizational work which will be in inverse proportion to the economic and social level achieved in each sector and in each country, and which is therefore easier in the more advanced countries.


2) Lower phase of Socialism (or Socialist phase)

This second stage is derived dialectically from the first, and displays the following characteristics: the Proletarian State by now controls the gross exchangeable product, though a small-production sector still exists. These conditions make it possible to move on to a non-monetary distribution which, nevertheless, is still mediated through exchange since the allocation of products to the producers depends on how much work they have performed, and is effected through the labour vouchers that attest to it. Such a system is substantially different from capitalism where the earnings of wage-labourers are linked to their labour-power, with an abyss dug between individual lives and the wealth of society. This is because under Socialism no obstacles will exist between needs and their satisfaction, excepting the obligation for all competent individuals to work, and every progress, that in capitalist society becomes a hostile power against the proletariat, will immediately become a means of emancipation for the entire species. Nonetheless, forms directly inherited from bourgeois society still have to be dealt with: "The same amount of labour which the producer has given to society in one form he receives back in another. Here obviously the same principle prevails as that which regulates the exchange of commodities, as far as this is exchange of equal values ... Hence, equal right here is still in principle bourgeois right, although principle and practice are no longer at loggerheads, while the exchange of equivalents in commodity exchange only exists on the average and not in the individual case. In spite of this advance, this equal right is still constantly stigmatised by a bourgeois limitation. The right of the producers is proportional to the labour they supply". (Marx, Critique of the Gotha Programme). Above all, work still appears as a social restriction, and yet it becomes less and less oppressive as working conditions generally improve.

On the other hand, the fact of the proletarian state having the means of production at its disposal makes possible (after the stern repression of all useless or anti-social economic sectors, begun already in the transitory phase) an accelerated development of those sectors neglected under capitalism, above all housing and agriculture : moreover, it enables a geographical reorganization of the apparatus of production, leading eventually to the suppression of the antagonism between city and countryside, and to the formation of one production unit on a continental scale. The effective monopoly of industrial production held by the proletarian State will also make it in the best interests of the small producers to be become ever more integrated into the more evolved and concentrated forms of production.

Finally, all these advances imply the abolition of the general conditions which, on the one hand confine the female sex to an unproductive and menial housework, and, on the other, limit a large number of producers to manual activities alone, making intellectual work, and scientific knowledge, a social privilege for one class alone. Thus along with the abolition of the different class relationships to the means of production, there is the prospect of the disappearance of the fixed attributions of given social duties to particular human groups.


3) Phase of higher Socialism (or Communist phase)

In the measure in which the State performs these tasks, to which it owes its existence, it thereby transcends its historical function of preventing and repressing attempts at a capitalist restoration, and begins to cease to exist as a State as such, that is as a rule over men, and starts to become a simple apparatus for administering things. This withering away is bound up with the disappearance of distinct social classes and is therefore achieved when the small producer, peasants and artisans, have finally been transformed into out and out industrial producers. And thus we arrive at the level of higher communism which Marx characterised as follows : "In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labour, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labour, has vanished ; after labour has become not only a means of life but life's prime want ; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-round development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly - only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!".

This great historical goal involves not merely the destruction of antagonisms between men, the cause of their restlessness, of that "general, particular, and perpetual" insecurity (Babeuf) which is the lot of humanity under capitalist society, it is also the fundamental condition for the real dominion of Society over Nature which Engels described as "the passage from the reign of necessity to that of freedom", in which the development of human powers as a human activity will become for the first time an end in itself. It is then, also, that social praxis itself will provide the solution to all the antinomies of traditional theoretical thought, "between existence and essence, objectification and self-affermation, liberty and necessity, individual and species" (Marx), and communism will then finally be deserving of the description applied to it by the founders of scientific Socialism as an "enigma finally resolved by History".

----

This is just an outline of a possible transition to communist society. However, it is pointless debating exactly "how" communist society will come about. What is most important is recognizing the fundemental contradictions within capitalist society which will bring about it's own collapse (these can be seen daily) and that the two choices, as Rosa Luxemburg said, "Socialism or Barbarism." The rest is all practical work and learning from the historical memory of class struggle.

There are many possible systems other than laissez fair capitalism and communism - many other possibilities. An argument that because communism promotes imperialism, lack of motivation for workers, and promotes dictatorship is not automatically an argument for the effectiveness of capitalism unless you think there are only two possible systems.

Some of the pillars of anarchism: 1. free association of people 2. No borders 3. no hierarchy in gov't- or no members of government that have more power than other citizens (there are many pictures of an anarchist society where there would be people doing government jobs such as teaching and driving busses, rather than this simplified 'no government' notion that a lot of people have about anarchism, but they would not make privileged decisions for others). These foundational ideas inherently prevent anarchism from becoming imperialist or developing a gov't dictatorship.

to brainiacs, smashing stuff is a sign of some blah blah blah and using that theory, it turns people off.

all normal people and realpolitik people (like bush and company) understand that smashing stuff ups the ante a little bit, shows more conviction, and more raw unpredictability which would stretch the impact of the protest beyond the intentions of the politicians who are supposed to be running the anti-war dissent in this country. if you want to talk tactics, lets talk tactics!

THIS IS A WONDERFUL ACTION

NO MORE INS NO MORE BORDERS NO MORE BULLSHIT

>>> Some of the pillars of anarchism: 1. free association of people 2. No borders 3. no hierarchy in gov't- or no members of government that have more power than other citizens (there are many pictures of an anarchist society where there would be people doing government jobs such as teaching and driving busses, rather than this simplified 'no government' notion that a lot of people have about anarchism, but they would not make privileged decisions for others). These foundational ideas inherently prevent anarchism from becoming imperialist or developing a gov't dictatorship. <<<

I've never seen this discussed here, so I'll ask:

What is the anarchist position on defense--both internal and external. In an anarchist system, is there any type of police force? If not, how is crime dealt with? Are there punishments or penalties for any type of behavior? If so, who decides what they are? If not, what happens if, say, someone is murdered or raped?

On the larger scale, if there is no one in power, what happens, for example, if there is a terrorist attack or another country that does not have an anarchist system decides to use military force to subjugate one that does?

Oh, yeah. You guys are really going to change the world...by breaking windows. Let that freedom ring.
You're all pathetic.

Please oh please tell me you did not just say that the US is more dangerous than Nazi Germany? I think the families of the six MILLION Jews murdered by Hitler might disagree.
Do you know anything at all about history, political science and/or the constitution or are you simply so blinded by misguided ideas that you ignore them?

>You guys are really going to change the world...by breaking windows. Let that freedom ring.
>You're all pathetic.


This is like saying,”You guys are really going to change the world...by throwing tea in the harbor. Let that freedom ring. You're all pathetic.” or like saying, ”You guys are really going to change the world...bydriving the money changers from the temple with a whip. Let that freedom ring. You're all pathetic.”


>I think the families of the six MILLION Jews murdered by Hitler might disagree.
>Do you know anything at all about history,

If you knew any history, you would realize that the famous “six million” were no more than a side show. Thirteen million died in the camps alone. But the real Holocaust was against Slavs, not Jews. Depending on whose version you believe, between twenty to fifty million Russians died. To call on the six million “The” Holocaust is to spit on the grave of everyone else who died.

For details, see:

http://www.sfbg.com/nessie/26.html

Those communist purges were in the best interest of the collective...Communisim is so great.

Changing the subject:

http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/subject.htm

Which subject, economics and price theory, or peckerwood vandals. I will be happy to discuss either one. Carry on gentelmen..

I've been to your so called Soviet UNION five times. They kept nothing in check except the masses they were controlling and using for their own gain. I will not defend the U.S. in the way it preys upon other economies. BUT you are talking through your ASS about Russia (check).

I've lived in your so called AMERICA many years. If it weren't for their massive quantities of WMD, they'd have kept nothing in check, except the masses they were controlling and using for their own gain with media hype, the dumbing down of the schools through funding cuts, and fake wars, like the false war on drugs, and the ridiculous war on terror. I will not defend the U.S. in the way it preys upon other economies either.

Problem is TA the USA is the only place you have lived.
You need to get a real view ....homey.

Problem is, Bori, the USA is the the only place you have lived when you weren't on duty.
You need to get a real view ....honey. Travel to places you want to go, not places you're forced to go to. Things will be brighter, esp after the nukes from wwiii have brought us our promise of a brighter tomorrow.

Who could feel sorry for the aristocrats who had such haughty, careless, self-indulging attitudes and said words such as "Let them eat cake" with regards to the starving masses?

Who could believe somebody espousing revolution could use this analogy when one of the biggest problems facing the poor in the good ol' U.S. of A. is obesity.

Thats right TA. I was on duty doing my Peace Corps time....try a little action and less words

I reject the notion that [censored]. I mean how in the world could anyone believe [censored] Just follow this link: [censored]

Nice to know some things never change.

Thank you thank you San FRancisco!

an excellent target!
i know lots of people who will love to see this

another thank you IMC
and whoever took the INS building to task

this made my day
:)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

What's worse -- government fascists or Bay area Bolsheviks? Which are the greater or lesser assholes?

Destruction is rarely a solution to a problem.

I disagree entirely. This country -- like Cuba, North Korea, or any other country you care to name -- has the right to control its borders. The INS plays a legitimate and just function. The trashing is not only wrong, but also futile.

Thank you, and have a nice day.

Frank
Columbus, Georgia

Bet you wear spectacle glasses, sport a goatee, and wear shabby clothes that smell like the dog turd you really are. Thank God (there's another insult to you) you idiots live in one stinky place on the West Coast, where we always know where you are. You're like a cancer, and capitalism is the chemotherapy that is keeping it in check.

What are you conservatives yelling about? These commies trashed the IRS? They don't want the government taking all they own? They should be congratulated...they're finally with us. If I'd known I'd be there trashing the IRS, too...Oh, wait a minute...The I-N-S! NEVER MIND.

What happened to the "GRIM TRUTH IN IRAQ" thread?

remnant

my previous comment was posted in the thread on Iraq, but it turned up in this thread. The Iraq thread appears to have mutated into a copy o f this thread.

Weird!

I'M AFRAID THIS MAY BE TRUE AFTER ALL:

"If you're not a liberal by the time you are twenty, you have no heart
If you're not a conservative by the time you're thirty, you have no brain"

For all you wannabe split-level Che Gueveras out there:

Look, Marx was a 27 year old idiot when he wrote the communist manifesto; it was immediately embraced by a bunch of 20 year old idiot boys who pontificated and preened at european cafe tables all day long, pretending they understood its obfuscations so that they would look cool enough to "get laid".

Nothing really changes.

Critical thinking is hard work.......it's a good thing for everyone, whatever your leaning, to challenge your staunch positions with opposing arguments.

Stupid hippie -If you have read any comments here, or testimonials about the breakaway march, you would notice a lack of communists! At the beginning, there was a small group of 3 people with spartacist signs but they went away pretty quickly.

Anyway, we won:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/01/25/MN61041.DTL
Washington -- The major appropriations bill approved by the Senate late Thursday includes a little-noticed amendment that would cut off funding for a Justice Department program that requires male immigrants from two dozen predominantly Muslim countries to register and be fingerprinted by the Immigration and Naturalization Service.

The main purpose of the amendment was to restore funding for a congressionally mandated program that by 2005 is designed to provide information on the identity of all visitors to the United States and track when they enter and leave the country.

But the amendment also included language that bans the use of any of the money for the National Security Entry-Exit Registration System (NSEERS), a program that is targeted at male temporary visitors from countries the government considers to be terrorist harbors.

Under the NSEERS program, thousands of men older than 16 have been fingerprinted and questioned by INS agents, causing widespread confusion and apprehension among Muslims across the country. Thousands lined up at INS offices to meet a series of deadlines. More than 1,200 men who were found to be in violation of immigration laws were detained -- most of them briefly -- and face deportation hearings.

The confusion and delays prompted the government to give visitors from 18 nations another chance to register. The program applies to male immigrants from 24 predominantly Muslim countries and North Korea.

The House version of the Senate's $390 billion spending measure wouldn't cut off funding for the registration program, and it's not clear whether the Senate ban will survive negotiations with the House on a final version of the legislation.

Mark Corallo, a Justice Department spokesman, said Friday that the Bush administration would work to keep NSEERS in place.

"We are committed to the National Security Exit-Entry Registration System, which has already proven to have been a success in apprehending persons who would have presented a severe risk to the American people," Corallo said.

He said the system had allowed law enforcement authorities to apprehend 330 "known criminals" and three "known terrorists."

Since last October, the INS also has been fingerprinting and questioning male immigrants from countries on the NSEERS list at selected ports of entry to the United States. The Senate spending ban, which would apply to "any expenses relating to NSEERS" apparently would cut off funds for that effort and the more controversial registration program, which began late last year.

The Senate amendment also would require Attorney General John Ashcroft to provide Congress with documents and other information on the creation and operation of NSEERS, and provide an assessment of the program's effectiveness.

The Justice Department "will work with Congress and answer all of their questions and concerns," Corallo said.

The amendment to restore $165 million for the larger tracking system, which had been cut from the bill by Senate appropriators, was offered on the Senate floor by Sens. John McCain and Jon Kyl, both Arizona Republicans, and was adopted by voice vote. In their brief remarks on the floor, neither mentioned the provision cutting off funding for the NSEERS program. The Bush administration had requested $16.8 million to fund the program for the current fiscal year.

Congressional sources said the NSEERS funding cutoff was included in the amendment at the request of Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass. James Manley, a Kennedy spokesman, said the amendment "cuts funding until Congress has the information it needs to assess whether this is the most effective use of tax dollars in the war on terrorism."

Place the military on the border and start rounding up all the illegals.

Seriously, who is "we"? It really isn't clear from the many tomes and testimonials I HAVE READ so far.

Why do you even call yourself a "hippy" unless you are trying to recapture what was worst about the middle class dropout culture of the 60s. As we said back then: "you can take the kid out of the 'burb, but you can't take the 'burb out of the kid."

Maybe your moniker shoud be:

OLD MIDDLE CLASS SUBURBAN KID

For those who hate America, many airlines are offering deals on international travel, so why don't you move to a more ideal paradise, like Europe? And by the way, make sure to sent a note renouncing your citizenship so you cannot be called an "American" again. For you illegals, the INS, black helicopters, and more will find you and you will disappear, unless you take heed and leave.

Hey hippies, try some of that shit down in the South....How about down near Fort Bragg, NC? Or Fort Benning, GA? You little punks don't know what you're even fighting against, you are just looking for a way to blow off the angst you carry from your parents ignoring you and your need to believe in something. What don't you read up on Saddam and find out how much like Hitler he is? Then again, that would get in the way of your drug sessions, so maybe not.

Hey history buff, you may want to dust of your copy of Mein Kampf and read it before saying that the Jews were not the main target of Hitler's ire. The Slavs were considered expendable mainly because they lived on land he wanted Aryans to farm, etc. They were "Vormensch", and should be killed because of that. Hitler REALLY had a hard-on for killing Jews. So go read a couple of days and come back and tell us that you are now a little more educated....

What are you saying here, guy, that we should believe one of the world's most notorious liars, and not believe the statistics?

He killed 6 million Jews (more or less). It was a sideshow. Less than half of the deaths in the camps were Jews. The camps killed 13 million. They were a broad mix of people, including Russians, leftists, Roma, and homosexuals. The disabled also died wholesale, though usually not in camps. Most people were not killed in camps. Neither were they Jews. Most of the dead were Russians. Depending on whose version you believe, somewhere between 20 million to 50 million Russians died.

Nazis lie. Numbers don't.

I guess if they wanted to they could squash each and every one of you with no regret...Ohio comes to mind...they let you morons do this so that you could let of a little steam....it's tax dollars anyway and there are lot's of those....unlimited is what I'm talking about...so as you walk around with hard nipples over this they laugh drinking expensive wine and eating lobsters...morns....yea great...GOOD JOB!

Not all at once, they couldn't. There are simply too many of us, we are too widely scattered and have too many friends.

So you object to the INS. My grandfather managed to come here legally - what I'd like to know is, why can't people wanting to come here now do the same? The INS is an instrument of law (and not a great one; they allowed one of the two DC area snipers to stay here illegally). If you don't like them, do what adults do - lobby Congress.

Are you using vulgarity to convince us, or yourself?

Kudos to the heroic revolutionaries of A.N.S.W.E.R.
This attack on US INS buildings will signficantly alleviate the suffering of those who are in Iraqi prisons and North Korean labor camps, not to mention the starving opponents of Mugabe in Zimbabwe and the
victims of US imperialism in Cuba. After all, we all know that symbolism is more important than action and that slogans can really, really help the plight of the victims of despotism everywhere.

Non-fat lattes to you all! May the Force be with you.
Onward to the IRS!

hahahahahahaha
excellent! you're getting the right idea!!!!

You people are idiots. The INS should be doing a much better job ousting illegals from our country and sending them back to wherever they came from. The INS should be doing a better job rounding up people who have overstayed their visa's - like many of the Sept. 11 murderers) - and booting their butts outta the U.S.

Brilliant work, just brilliant. Let's attack the agency that is charged with keeping terrorists from entering the country. Good idea. Open the borders wide so the bombers can come in, kill a few hundred thousand, and then GUARANTEE thermonuclear war in the Middle East....you guys are so clear-headed and far-sighted.

A.N.S.W.E.R. is a front organization for the Worker's World Party. A hardcore communist organization that split from the Socialist Worker's Party when the Soviets invaded Hungary in 1956. The WWP thinks the Soviet invasion was a great idea. After all, you can't have people wanting some say of say how their own damn country is run.

The WWP admires how North Korea is run. I suppose that means they approve of starving half the population while the leaders live in luxery.

Smashing the INS building? I suppose that means the protesters don't like immigrants at all. In that case, fuck you assholes. My wife is a legal immigrant and hopes to have her citizenship before the end of the year. She'll make a better American than all of you unwashed treehuggers combined. She grew up under communism. She knows the pain and suffering it caused. She knows what it's like to be forced to sing songs praising the greatness of Stalin, all the while hating that she couldn't change a damn thing. And all the while the resources of her country were being raped by the Soviets, you assholes lived in the ignorance of dreaming of the "worker's paradise".

Read a history book, you ignorant twits. You have a lot to learn.

Thank God they didn't ATTACK THE IRS. As long as they confine their attacks on agencies like the INS, our capitalist system is safe. But, if the Peace Peasants were to ATTACK THE IRS, they would really be making a ststement. I sure hope they don't get wise and begin to ATTACK THE IRS.

It is highly irresponsible to celebrate the destruction of government property.

You people make me laugh, your just a bunch of spoiled children who want to distroy because it's quicker than building. What did you do after your little out burst, smoke some dope with your looser friends...Get a life.

You people make me laugh, your just a bunch of spoiled children who want to distroy because it's quicker than building. What did you do after your little out burst, smoke some dope with your looser friends...Get a life.

How come you twits refuse to grow up? Why are you such immature juvenile delinquents? Morons.

You morons constantly cry about police brutality and violence, but you'll destroy property at will.

You smash windows and burn cars. You destroy public and private property so don't cry when the police bash you upside your empty heads.

Fuck A.N.S.W.E.R. Fuck the communists. They only want to destroy America. Kill the human shields with the first napalm bomb in Iraq, and improve the gene pool.

The fact that this action has received so much debate and remains so controversial is a testament to its effectiveness.

Obviously the amount of reactionary posts on this thread point to the reality of their FEAR of such actions (and the police force's inability to confront such an enormous amount of people).

Of course if the police were to retaliate it would be far more brutal than any mere arbitrary destruction of "property". Who feels physical pain from a smashed window? Joe Average walking around San Francisco barefoot? Give me a break. How naive. The shattered glass will be swept up by a fellow wage earner who would probably be cleaning toilets anyhow, and who would probably be grateful for the opportunity to work outside and enjoy a breath of fresh air.

Only the extremely naive would refer to the INS's windows as "private property". They are paid for by taxpayers. If they need to pay to replace the windows they can simply take the money from somewhere else -- for instance, the money that traditionally goes to the military-industrial complex or the prison-industrial complex.

Though it is extremely humorous that people would react so hysterically to a handful of smashed windows, it is true that ultimately the tactic is irrelevant. The windows will be replaced and nothing will have changed. The energy ought to be invested in building non-hierarchical popular syndicalist unions to build support for a general strike (a truly useful tactic), or meeting the needs that government does not, such as voluntarily feeding, clothing, and sheltering those in need. A great start are organizations such as Food Not Bombs or the IMC itself.

Governments will fall when we make them irrelevant.

I joined the anti-war, anarchist movement. I did it so I could get laid. I meet a lot of chicks with loose morals in the movement, and I do as many as I can. (But they tend to be ugly--they don't like baths or hair cuts.)

Post YOUR address, so certain of us can return the favor.

(assuming, that is, that you don't squat in an abandoned building, or sleep in some shopkeeper's doorway)

Direct Action cuts both ways, little man.

Reminds me of a quote:
"if i'm gonna die for a word, that word is poontang"

A virtual dollar to who can name the source...

Kinda like the parking lot at a phish show. A few hotties and all the chemical entertainment one could hope for....

argumentum ad hominem:

http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/attack.htm

Appeal to Ridicule:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-ridicule.html

This is a parody, right? No one really believes this anarchist stuff, do they? It's just fun to be a revolutionary. The ol us and them thing. Like sports, or war, or gangs. Full of noise and etc., signifying nothing, except a flight from the tedium of middle class soft-life.
It's sad, but hardly exceptional.
Religion begat prosperity, and the daughter devored the mother.
What's funny is that if you nice young fellows ever did get your revolution going you'd be slaughtered in droves. Kinda like the Paris Commune (look it up). We right wing sons of the pioneers are just as bad as you say we are, and wonderfully dangerous when aroused.
By the way, for the anti-semetic morons, the distinction of the Shoah vs the other 39 million dead of WW11, is that the Nazis had the aim of making the Jews extinct, except perhaps for the Gypsies; this was not their goal with any other subject race. the other deaths were incidental to the grand design, but the vernichtung - erasure of the Jew was in many ways the point of Nazi ideology and therfore constitutes a historically unique crime.
The Jew could not surrender, vacate his land or convert. His part in the drama was merely to be murdered- man, woman and child.
It is forever fascinating to contemplate the self-deception required to hold the absurd beliefs expressed by the loonie left today. But having abandoned religion is it so odd to think you cannot face the emptiness of the universe without faith? In that, you share in the idealism of the SS, but you lack their courage and effectiveness. Revolution by chants, slogans and paper mache' puppets- pretty weak.
Well, maybe the debauched and degenerate must be swept away, after all, it's not like there are'nt millions of sturdy young people clamoring at the borders eager to take your places in this capitalist hell.

I would like to give you my address, but I'm afraid it won't do you much good. I'm on my way to the next anti-war protest, riding in the back of a van with your anarchist sister. (She smells, though--too long without a bath.)

Actually, ridicule is a very effective weapon in such cases. The best way to fight the peaceniks is by poking fun at them, and pricking their self-important, know-it-all, ego ballon. I love the loud bang!

You'll take whatever you're given. You "free thinkers" like to think your rational, but you won't investigate enough to know that there is a world of difference between Christianity and Islam. You simply swallow the zealous anti-religion party establishment's line.

So many puerile strawmen to bash - so little space.

Religion is the worst thing to ever happen to the world - except for atheism. Atheism has killed more people in the last century than has religion through all of history.

And...well, I'll sum it up this way: Every piece of content on this site testifies to the moral, intellectual and human bankruptcy of the "peace", "justice" and "protest" movements. You people, collectively, aren't bright enough to make even a charade of a difference.

Try reading a little history. You'll see that Christianity has been an unmitigated blessing to millions throughout history, while the anti-Christians (like Hitler and the Communists) have brought untold suffering to milions.

As examples, please note the historical origins of the Red Cross, the Salvation Army, the YMCA, the YWCA, and community charities. Note, too, the names of hospitals in your community (St. Luke's, St. John's, etc), and guess what impetus gave them birth. Please note the medical missionaries, and the missionaries that built schools and hospitals in the third world. (Did the peaceniks in SF do anything like that? If they did, they might miss their next cocktail party.)

Before you mention the Crusades and the Inquisition (you atheists are so predictable!), please know that these were not Christian movements at all, but rather political and economic ones.

You want proof? Okay.

Who were the following historical characters: Hitler, Pol Pot, Osama bin Laden, Joseph Stalin, Vladimir Lenin, Benito Mussolini? What did they do?

What was their attitude toward Christianity?

Last question: Name all the Christian totalitarian tyrants of the twentieth century.

If you don't understand why the INS represents institutional terror to millions of innocent people, then you don't understand much about this world. When the INS is completely dismantled and borders are dissolved along with this sick system, then we will be moving somewhere worthwhile.

It needs to be said:

Pol Pot was a genocidal nationalist who filled a power vacuum opened wide by US bombs, NOT a "follower" of Marx. I'd be surprised if he read three words of Marx. If he followed anyone it was the lead of the US, which sabotaged efforts to displace him, pushed for his government to retain its position as representative of Cambodia in the UN once he was, and--via the Thai army--aided his forces after they'd been given a beating. And that's hardly the extent of support mr pot received from America.

Stalin didn't "follow" Marx, if by that we mean something more than patching together a few phrases from Marx's writings to justify his statist nightmare.

Lenin can accurately be called a follower of Marx. However, he betrayed Marx's ideas in thinking that they could be imposed from on high by an incipiently capitalist state formation.

Just my little late-night thoughts.

Despite claiming a legacy based on the ideas of Marx, Lenin could more accurately be described as a product of the reformism of the Second International. His Bolshevik Third International took these ideas forward into history as state capitalism--hardly the legacy of Marx.

Just read Rosa Luxemburg's "The Russian Revolution" (the pamphlet made from a rough draft she wrote while in prison) which is highly critical of the Bolsheviks.

Lenin was a complex historical figure, but it's wrong to call him a Marxist. He denounced Kautsky, but had more in common with him and the other Social-Democrats like Bernstein than Marx.

GF

I can't wait for the day when the anarchists get what they think they want. Their homes will be the first I visit once we've decided that bullying and damaging (I prefer to think of it as revolting) are the means of trade and expression. All the cowards and idiots rail against the standards (insert whatever blathering term you picked up from your graduate assistants.... hedgemony, imperialism, fascism, capitalism) so long as the standards also keep them safe. Let's really do it.... get rid of it all. It's the only thing that protects you. See you soon.... hopefully.

Keep America American.Their should be an INS office in every city and town in AMERICA.

those who think that france is the model country should consider the mindset of the average "frog"
even the french are sick of a unrestrained immigration
policy.
so we are finally enforcing the law of the land after 8 years of "clinton think" I suppose it was done by james carville in an effort stop the majority of the democratic party from being deported.

If you know anything about how California government works, you would know that it's the republicans in legislature who come from the Central valley towns who are vastly in favor of permitting numbers of illegal immigrants from Mexico to come in without being caught by the INS. This is very well documented. Agriculture would collapse without them. The democrats are more of a union constituency who have their wages dragged down by the presence of more competition at the bottom, and so they oppose the de facto system of permitting them in. Republicans on the federal level might like to hide this fact because they would lose the votes of lower income whites. What they just never would like to do is allow them to become citizens. It wouldn't be that hard at all to keep out more illegal entrants.

Good thing this was a peace march. Can you imagine how destructive it would have been if it weren't? Sheesh, when you have the city's leaders begging you not to destroy public property (police cars, in particular), you know there is something rotten at the core.

What do these people do when they grow up?
The INS is empowered to proctect us for illeagal aliens. W/o their flooding of the borders, wages would rise and the underclass would have a chance. But nooooo, the pro illegal group says while they count their trust funds and/or get their government checks.
Johnh Walker would be proud of those folks.
May Christ bless you today

Capitalists that exploit undocumented labor have no interest in ending restrictive immigration laws because these laws act as a weapon against potential collective action in the work-place.

"Oh, you don't like being paid $3/hour to work in this toxic hell? If you even think of doing anything about it, I'll report your asses to the INS. Get back to work!"

It isn't the "flooding" of the borders, per se, that drives down wages. It's the utter powerlessness of undocumented labor that serves to exert down-ward pressure on the wage-rate. Duckworth's calls for more draconian measures would only aggravate this situation.

COME ON RAIDERS!!!!!!!!!
DOWN AT HALF

DOWN WITH THE INS

The INS causes people to disappear?? Come on, people, what planet do you live on??

I wish I had been present when somebody smashed that window at INS. I would have let them know how I felt about this waste of taxpayers' money. And my foot would have gone so far up his ass, only a brain surgeon could have removed it.

that sure would be a long way that you put your foot up their ass! indeed

Does anyone on this site besides the trolls know a single thing about history?

Lenin was NOT aligned with Bernstein in the slightest. Lenin railed against Bernstein, foamingly, for the entirety of his pre-career in Eastern Russia. He rightly saw that Bernstein had removed the mythic quality from socialism by averring that the end-goal need not be revolution.

Lenin was a social democrat. Yeah, that's why Britain looks like the USSR.

Moron.

Lenin broke with the social democrats of the second international after their complete betrayal at the beginning of world war one, by backing their respective national rulers, which was inreality support for the capitalist barbarity unleashed on the working class resulting in the slaughter of millions of proletarians. Lenin rightfully called for turning imperialist war into civil war, which was supported by Rosa Luxemburg and other communists.

incidents oddly enough in Portland and SanFran..hm..

it'd be nice if everyone could be on the same rebellious page. hopefully the psy-ops on this board and at Portland and other IMCs will join in the fight so buildings don't have to be smashed up.

who knows who did the smashings. maybe groups are infiltrated and group think has taken over..maybe the same people that push protesters into police lines are up to their old tricks..who knows (someone does...)

all i'm saying is that all the people that think they're "intelligent" might want to start thinking more dynamically and get over themselves. anarchists, liberals, cynical pseudo-conservatives, whoever.

also, why are some taking life so damn seriously? just relax and fight the evil powers that be, no need to argue and hate.

smashing stuff is no problem but understand the reprocussion of any such acts. walking thru the streets w/ signs is cool and having faith in civic leaders is alright, but just realize that there are people out there that do want to see you get gassed and suffer police state violence--stand strong and show no weakness, even if you're not physically fighting back.

and to the 0ps on the board, how can you just waste your life as a demon scourge? start caring and helping instead of being an evildoer.

I'm not sure why I even waded through this efluvia of chat room bullshit , but your comments almost returned me from the nightmarish world of petty reactionaries who have been wasting everyones time with the enormous distraction of spewing calcified, tired retoric.
The near-total absense of independent thought in this
supposedly independent forum is really creepy.
Why must people argue about whether Hitler meant to exterminate Jews ? Because they can' t think clearly enough to formulate a real critique of Israel's policy without stooping to anti-semitic hate mongering?
I wish I could find thoughtful discussion by people who actually care about somthing besides being the loudest shrillest voice in the chatroom at 3 am.
..... In cheap pot-shot terms... I feel like I'm standing between a bunch of mullet sporting men whose bellies are spilling out from beneath their flag sweatshirts on the one hand, and a bunch of shrill slogan-chanting humorless "anarchists" and "marxists" (who are actually neither ) on the other. (my apologies for the pot-shot)
How about some real dialogue, before it's too late.

This is sort of a humorous thread... i.e., I had no idea that so many conservatives frequent indymedia.org. Too bad our IP's aren't publicly logged, (Or are they?) because I'm curious to know how many people have posted more than once so far, using different names.

Regarding the INS incident, I'm glad to see that no one was hurt. It's sad that something like that has to happen in order for voices to be heard, but personally, I don't have a problem with what the "vandals" did.

BTW, I can spot a fallacy a mile away.

First off, I'm not your friend.

Second, you too are wrong. Lenin broke with Bernstein's reimagining of Marx's babble years before WWI and the socialist turn to nationalism (which presaged fascism; fascism = socialism + ultranationalism). He was on his mommy's estate at the time, before he had even discovered Chernyshevsky's "What Is To Be Done?".

Regardless of when, it's too bad he did, because if he hadn't, we'd have only suffered the legacy of Gompers-ite trade-unionism this past century rather than Stalinism, Maoism, Fascism in both forms, and Pol Pot's little extravaganza.

Cunts.

I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that I thought of you as my "friend," I was merely agreeing with you that Lenin was not a social democratic swine. Even the most reactionary some times admit moments of insight.

Your worship of nationalism and capitalism is misguided. Nationalism and capitalism are diseses which have brought death and destruction the world over. The nations involved in both world wars fought in the name of the "home land" and profit, the USSR included, and resulted it in the genocide of millions.

Capitalism is war. Capitalism will continue to generate more and more destructive devices for it's war mongering appetite, for "progress," resulting in more and more millions being blown apart, burned to death, and sufficated.

The US is opening up a new phase of imperialist conflict and is already alienating it's former allies in Europe. A future of capitalist warfare is expected, and won't be stopped unless there is an international movement against capitalism.

Fascism was a ruling class reaction to communist militancy in europe. Fascism rose up in the middle classes and was embraced by the capitalists to maintain their interests. Fascism took up some socialist rhetoric, to gain working class support, but in reality of course wasn't socialist/communist in any real sense. Mussolini himself said that fascism would more aptly be called "Corporatism" because it merged the state and corporations. Most of the capitalist democrays and dictatorships of today have taken up large amounts of fascist planning, the US being a great example of government/corporate power being almost indistinguishable, especially in military production. Only the crass would equate fascism with socialism.

Tim McViegh lives!!! We got the ATF, INS... Now, onward to the I.R.S.!!!

(But people, lets do this at night when there are no CHILDREN in the building).

stop smoking that shit!!!

rather than show and act violence
be smart, how?
class suit, legal rights, that is how civilize people inter act, in 2003. stop the violence, this is the land where we are living, remember the only land that feed us or have you forgot where we come from, back in our countries they do not have enough jobs, others they persecute those that want freedom of speech. So, why are we acting this way. Why don't we just say thank you to the people and show some respect. Use the civil rights in court, not to destroy other people's properity.

It's not "other people's properity." It is OUR property. We paid for it. We own it.

e megior!!!!!!!

great!!!!

The INS think this county is heaven as they go on and
threat people with deportation, they don't know some were having the best of life back home,,,, i am just
a visiting student you assholes, i was meant to leave since day one here, then you arrest me because i skipped a semester....... fuck you... mother fuckers

The INS think this county is heaven as they go on and
threat people with deportation, they don't know some were having the best of life back home,,,, i am just
a visiting student you assholes, i was meant to leave since day one here, then you arrest me because i skipped a semester....... fuck you... mother fuckers

just go back, and take the rest of yours with you. don't forget those "anti-everything". they are clearly out of place here. they'll like it there where you're from.

now that we got SFPD totally fucked up, lets go after the INS and none of them will be left by the time the REAL PROTESTS START

The newspaper says that the INS is being ended within the month, and is being rolled into the huge bureaucratic Office of Homeland security. I don't know where the offices of that will be - probably each employee of the old agencies will do their same job, in the same building, but it will just be less accountable because the there will be fewer people in charge at the top. You know how when corrupt governments fall, everyone always says "I was following orders - I had to follow the orders of my superior" and so ultimately only Donald Rumsfeld is in charge or something.

what kind of bullshit is that... violence being 'their' way, who is 'them' the goverment whos trying to protect your homeland and is failing miserably at it. America does these things in your interest (i.e. iraq) so therefore you are receiving the non-shitty end of the stick, therefore you have absoulotly no right to protest, these people who are being suppressed and slaughtered on the street in iraq however do, it is there rights that are being trampled on, if your going to riot, riot for their rights. Also, no one listens to a violent annoying group of wannabe anarchists, they have no say, becuase the goverment knows they cant negotiate with them all theyll get is anger and nowhere. Wake up you iggnorant fucks the world doesnt work that way, they could hardly give a shit what they do to you, hell you could be blown to peices by a SRAM missile, no one would give a shit, especailly not the goverment. wake up and relize your lives are expendable and you living every day isnt a privlage its a gift.

*****America does these things in your interest (i.e. iraq)*****
Do you really believe Iraq was about the average American's interest? Are you that naive?

"America does these things in your interest (i.e. iraq)"
Do you really believe this? IYou believe that Iraq was a war that had the average 'American's" interest at heart. Please.

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