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organizer reportback from jan 18th breakaway
Saturday during the nation-wide protests against war in Iraq, anti-war activists, anti-capitalists, and ordinary Americans broke away from the permitted march and marched through the streets of San Francisco. The 1000+ march snaked through the streets, leaving a colorful trail of anti-war art in its wake. Drawings ranged from multicolored chalk drawing to spray-painted stencil and graffiti art. The energy grew and march participants made bolder statements, smashing windows at a Starbucks coffee shop and at the INS building.
Organizers point out that their role was simply to move the march from place to place, so that "affinity groups" and individuals could express themselves as they saw fit. They say their march was meant to send a powerful message to both private and governmental institutions they see as implicated in the war effort. Moreover they felt it was important to make this message "publicly and collectively" to amplify voices that have been shut out by the establishment and are not being heard in society. Organizers expect that their communities will show uncompromising and increasing resistance to this unjust war.
Organizers said they had been asked to bring the march to three locations, which they did. They did not cite Starbucks as one of these locations, but smiled when they were told that its windows had been smashed.
The Chronicle, San Francisco's only major local newspaper, was the first to be covered in a graffiti mural consisting mostly of short messages such as "Lies" and "Weapon of Mass Distraction". Activists criticized the paper as a "mouthpiece of the Bush regime" and said it failed to present any dissenting analysis or critical viewpoint on the war. One participant said that the spray-painted messages she left behind are "more representative of the views of our progressive communities than Chronic Liar propaganda."
The protesters then descended on the Citicorp Center building, home to the British Consulate. "Has Britain become a colony of the United States?" asked one protester, "Tony Blair is an embarrassment to British people everywhere." Protesters also targeted Citicorp itself, citing its financial complicity in the war effort. Citicorp was also criticized for funding exploitative projects in third world countries, for its offenses against the environment, and for the way it fuels poverty and injustice throughout the world. Another protester phrased her message as a question to passers-by: "Who profits from war?"
Energy remained high as the crowd redecorated the imposing INS building with images of a world without oppression. This building had recently been the target of angry protests over the mandatory "registration" of many Arab and middle-Eastern men. Marchers chanted "no borders, no nations, fuck deportations" as protesters smashed the windows of the INS and redecorated its façade. One protester said he was "outraged at the way our friends and neighbors are being humiliated and dehumanized. No person should be hauled away to a secret detention, abused, and denied access to their family or lawyer."
After the march left the INS building, plainclothes policemen who had infiltrated it tackled, brutalized, and hauled off at least two activists. The police became more and more aggressive, and organizers worried as the march began to be hemmed in. They led the protest back to Market street and headed up the street, sometimes running as police attempted to drive motorcycles into the crowd. Organizers looked for a place to disperse peacefully and called the march to an end at the Powell street BART station. Many protesters then entered the BART, only to be chased down into the station by police officers in riot gear. What happened in the BART station is still unclear.
Organizers of the march expressed gratitude to all who participated and made the event a great success. They offered a "special shout out to the pink bloc," in an apparent reference to a radical queer contingent in the march. Organizers also dismissed the preliminary media reports of violence saying, " Our march did not confront a single individual human being with violence. The only people looking for a fight today were the police."
There is no public press contact for march organizers. ###
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Hi, I followed when people started jumping and running down the stairs into the Powell St. Station. Some people hopped the turnstile into MUNI and ran down the stairs. Some cops ran in after them, and a few of them came back up the stairs. One person who didn't go in tried to distract the cops by yelling something like, "I'm the one you want!" (What a strange thing to do!) I went down to try to see what had happened, but it had already quieted down by the time I got there.
It was real out there today. I am sure there will be lots of discussion of the various actions from today, but at the time it was all quite exhilerating. Nothing like running with your comrades in the street and knowing that they are your streets, even if just for a brief window of time.
The police will probably learn from their mistakes and people need to get more organized as well. And supporting those ppl who were arrested definately needs to be a priority. Cause that could have been anyone.
But it was still great to be at a militant action like that in San Francisco.. It was definately in the spirit of the breakaway marches from GW1.
nice one.
The police will probably learn from their mistakes and people need to get more organized as well. And supporting those ppl who were arrested definately needs to be a priority. Cause that could have been anyone.
But it was still great to be at a militant action like that in San Francisco.. It was definately in the spirit of the breakaway marches from GW1.
nice one.
For more information:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/01/156210...
Look!
If you are interested in building a national movement for peace, YOU HAVE FAILED! There were around 200,000 people marching in peaceful protest Saturday in SF against unjust war and we might have made some headway in breaking the media silence if it weren't for the twenty of you jive ass motherfuckers who just couldn't keep your raging boy and girl cocks out of politics.
On Monday, the network news will feature YOU breaking coffee store windows. They will not feature me, who lost my voice at the Martin Luther King style rally at the Civic Center. It is YOU who have taken my voice away, not Starbucks or the INS!
Starbucks is so easy, right? One doesn't need a high school diploma to know that's a common target. Be creative kiddies!
I hate the INS too! But I'm POSITIVE I didn't see you out there on Friday in front of the INS building, peacefully protesing the INS detentions. perhaps you were doing your corporate bicycle delivery?. On that day, no windows were broken, no one got hurt and a lot of important things were said.
In my experience, I have seen that recent protests have piqued the interest of many older people and folks who would not ordinarily speak out. Good, right!!!!
Well, you have guaranteed that those people will not be at the next rally, period. They do not want to be maced and lumped in with a few childish fucking vandals who think they understand the meaning of anarchy. PLEASE READ EMMA GOLDMAN!!
And make up with your fathers. It's gone on too long...
Bryan Bowman
If you are interested in building a national movement for peace, YOU HAVE FAILED! There were around 200,000 people marching in peaceful protest Saturday in SF against unjust war and we might have made some headway in breaking the media silence if it weren't for the twenty of you jive ass motherfuckers who just couldn't keep your raging boy and girl cocks out of politics.
On Monday, the network news will feature YOU breaking coffee store windows. They will not feature me, who lost my voice at the Martin Luther King style rally at the Civic Center. It is YOU who have taken my voice away, not Starbucks or the INS!
Starbucks is so easy, right? One doesn't need a high school diploma to know that's a common target. Be creative kiddies!
I hate the INS too! But I'm POSITIVE I didn't see you out there on Friday in front of the INS building, peacefully protesing the INS detentions. perhaps you were doing your corporate bicycle delivery?. On that day, no windows were broken, no one got hurt and a lot of important things were said.
In my experience, I have seen that recent protests have piqued the interest of many older people and folks who would not ordinarily speak out. Good, right!!!!
Well, you have guaranteed that those people will not be at the next rally, period. They do not want to be maced and lumped in with a few childish fucking vandals who think they understand the meaning of anarchy. PLEASE READ EMMA GOLDMAN!!
And make up with your fathers. It's gone on too long...
Bryan Bowman
As someone participating in the breakaway march, I know that many of us were at the INS protests last week, helped promote those protests, did hours of work in support of those protests, etc.
Who the hell are you? You lost your voice?
200,000 in a protest is a kick-ass way to help stop this war. a breakaway march which shows militant resistance is ALSO a kick-ass way to help stop this war.
grow up.
Who the hell are you? You lost your voice?
200,000 in a protest is a kick-ass way to help stop this war. a breakaway march which shows militant resistance is ALSO a kick-ass way to help stop this war.
grow up.
Bryan Bowman are you a double ass agent sent to break some corporate glass windows...
There are tactics that make sense for marginalized groups and there are tactics that make sense for broad mass movements with deep penetration into the mainstream.
Smashing windows and making the capitalist system pay economically for its policies can be a great tactic, but not when you're getting grandmas, schoolkids, union members, joe and jane sixpack who suddenly care about something political out into the street.
There's a growing mass movement that actually cuts across mainstream Americans, unlike our efforts in the anti-global corporatization movement (which was more a case of better organizing among marginalized, at least in the US based version of the movement).
I'm not opposed to property destruction, but you folks are using tactics that are counter-productive to building the kind of political pressure that can stop Bush from doing what he wants-- invading Iraq.
Next time, slag the INS building in the middle of the night in your affinity groups, not in the context of an insanely successful mass march.
Smashing windows and making the capitalist system pay economically for its policies can be a great tactic, but not when you're getting grandmas, schoolkids, union members, joe and jane sixpack who suddenly care about something political out into the street.
There's a growing mass movement that actually cuts across mainstream Americans, unlike our efforts in the anti-global corporatization movement (which was more a case of better organizing among marginalized, at least in the US based version of the movement).
I'm not opposed to property destruction, but you folks are using tactics that are counter-productive to building the kind of political pressure that can stop Bush from doing what he wants-- invading Iraq.
Next time, slag the INS building in the middle of the night in your affinity groups, not in the context of an insanely successful mass march.
The point wasn't to just cause property destruction to "cut profits" but to make a clear POLITICAL MESSAGE. That wars for profits, wage slavery, and the deportation and detention of immigrants will not be tolerated by the anti-capitalist movement. How can you not applaude the property destruction of the widely hated INS building, especially in a city of immigrants?
I've said it before - and been attacked for it widely in print - this Black Bloc crap is police tolerated operation. Yeah, 99% of the people involved believe what they're doing is somehow helpful. But the *function* of the group is to distract the news media and thus people at home from the fact that demonstrations like Seattle and the ones yesterday have a huge broad base.
The so called "radicals" had a free run in Seattle. They even has their very own, very public club house which the police somehow never touched. Instead they handcuffed old ladies and sprayed tear gas in residential neighborhoods.
I don't have all the reports from San Francisco, but it sounds like the same damn thing all over again. The cops who have no trouble busting the heads of innocent people, somehow managed to not be able to deal with the Black Bloc. (I know it's because Black Bloc is so superior tactically. Yeah, right. They're 'useful idiots' who might as well collect a paycheck from the federal government for their antics.)
You want to break windows and spray paint buildings? Do it on your own time, not by ripping off the commitment of 200,000 people who've come out to defend peace peacefully.
By the way, the INS is in my opinion a Nazi-like organization and you're little stunt just gave them a blank check to "defend" themselves against any legitimate protest.
Groups like Black Bloc are the ONLY way the criminals in power can hope to hold back the tidal way of popular revulsion that's coming their way.
For more information:
http://brasscheck.com/seattle/
I am starting to get it now. After reading the comments and listening to the audio it becomes clear that the point of smashing windows is a basic human need left untended, or unchecked until this moment in time.
The need is for excitement in an otherwise dull and alienated existence. So we find other alienated folks and devise little plans to lash out at some symbol of our pain.
Then we feel a sense of "community" like neve before. This heartens us to take "action" . After spay painting , breaking or smashing something we experience an adrenaline rush when we run from the cops after breaking a window, wards. IT is a smiliar euphoric sensation to what's experienced when teen pranksters put shit in a paper bag, light in on fire and leave it on a doorstep, or egg someone's house. It is a thrill and a momentary rush of belonging as we see fellow pranksters racing to escape beside us.
I use to be a depressed, alienated teenager too...and then I grew up.
The need is for excitement in an otherwise dull and alienated existence. So we find other alienated folks and devise little plans to lash out at some symbol of our pain.
Then we feel a sense of "community" like neve before. This heartens us to take "action" . After spay painting , breaking or smashing something we experience an adrenaline rush when we run from the cops after breaking a window, wards. IT is a smiliar euphoric sensation to what's experienced when teen pranksters put shit in a paper bag, light in on fire and leave it on a doorstep, or egg someone's house. It is a thrill and a momentary rush of belonging as we see fellow pranksters racing to escape beside us.
I use to be a depressed, alienated teenager too...and then I grew up.
from what i saw, no people were hurt in the breakaway march other than a few.
one girl hurt her ankle kicking over a newpaper bin.
the people who were arrested may have been roughed up a bit from the cops, but nothing serious.
no "innocent" people were gassed, etc.
this war will not stop because everyone in the country marches on washington.
it will not stop because all the rich libreals but a bumber sticker on their car or a picket in their lawn or wear a button.
it will only stop if we make it stop, if it becomes less "cost effective" than actually doing it.
such is the logic of capitalism.
now that we know what the main problem is (capitalism), we know how to start subverting it.
go to it, y'all.
one girl hurt her ankle kicking over a newpaper bin.
the people who were arrested may have been roughed up a bit from the cops, but nothing serious.
no "innocent" people were gassed, etc.
this war will not stop because everyone in the country marches on washington.
it will not stop because all the rich libreals but a bumber sticker on their car or a picket in their lawn or wear a button.
it will only stop if we make it stop, if it becomes less "cost effective" than actually doing it.
such is the logic of capitalism.
now that we know what the main problem is (capitalism), we know how to start subverting it.
go to it, y'all.
hey guys, as much as i don't want to, i gotta agree with brasscheck.
as someone who has been an activist since way before the days of the globalization movement, i found the breakaway march to be poorly organized and serving no purpose but to give a publicity black eye to an otherwise highly successful day.
you guys can do whatever you want, and if it's revolutionary, then i support it, but what is revolutionary about randomly running through the streets with a police escort?
what is reolutionary about randomly turning down a side street only to randomly turn around again because you didn't really know where you wanted to go?
i didn't see what happened at the BART station, but i did see SFPD trying to their best to do traffic control for you guys, and you guys trying your best to get arrested.
if you really want to be revolutionary, organize something of your own, and really take it to the state, not just starbucks.
graffiti happens every night, and those guys are revolutionary. however, graff writers don't need cameras around or a big unorganized mob to do what they do. they just do it, and every morning, you see what they've done.
think about it.
as someone who has been an activist since way before the days of the globalization movement, i found the breakaway march to be poorly organized and serving no purpose but to give a publicity black eye to an otherwise highly successful day.
you guys can do whatever you want, and if it's revolutionary, then i support it, but what is revolutionary about randomly running through the streets with a police escort?
what is reolutionary about randomly turning down a side street only to randomly turn around again because you didn't really know where you wanted to go?
i didn't see what happened at the BART station, but i did see SFPD trying to their best to do traffic control for you guys, and you guys trying your best to get arrested.
if you really want to be revolutionary, organize something of your own, and really take it to the state, not just starbucks.
graffiti happens every night, and those guys are revolutionary. however, graff writers don't need cameras around or a big unorganized mob to do what they do. they just do it, and every morning, you see what they've done.
think about it.
We need comrades to produce propoganda posters with pictures of the INS vandalism and put them around SF, especially in immigrant neighborhoods, calling for the end of deportation, detention, and descrimination against immigrant workers. If the media will not accurately describe what happened, or if naive pacifists are going to deride us for taking action, we need to take the matter into our own hands.
i think allowing room for "childish" pranks is healthy in a movement. i don't think smashing windows and spray paint are childish though. these individuals are not accepting the allowed forms of dissent which show lack of passion and creativity and showing the decision makers and bosses that they are upset and don't want the bullshit anymore. as well, people who are historically considered heroes pulled what you would call pranks, Saul Alinsky using the elite's fear of uncouth farts to stop discriminating (Rules for Radicals by Alinsky), Abbie Hoffman throwing money at the stock exchange, Guy Debord and grafitti, Bionic Baking Brigade, the current starbucks occupation with super soakers, the boston tea party, and endless rebellions.
stop whining and see the signifigance of tactics which are more inspiring then loading into allowed marches like cattle.
stop whining and see the signifigance of tactics which are more inspiring then loading into allowed marches like cattle.
First of all just because you are so far to the left that Stalin and Castro look conservative that does not make The San Francisco Chronicle any where near to a right wing slant It is in fact one of the most left leaning media outlets in the country.
The way you report this you seem to agree with the tactics used by this band of hoods and support their call for revolution. I would to inform you that you need to prepare your self for a life of disappointment the vast majority of the American people see this country as a high performance luxury car that may need a tune up now and again not some clunker that needs to be junked. Some would like to move the country a little to the left some would like to move the country a little to the right. Almost all look at your group the same way they see the Communist, KKK and the Neo Nazis. Nut groups on the fringe that never learned to work and play well with others in Kindergarten
The way you report this you seem to agree with the tactics used by this band of hoods and support their call for revolution. I would to inform you that you need to prepare your self for a life of disappointment the vast majority of the American people see this country as a high performance luxury car that may need a tune up now and again not some clunker that needs to be junked. Some would like to move the country a little to the left some would like to move the country a little to the right. Almost all look at your group the same way they see the Communist, KKK and the Neo Nazis. Nut groups on the fringe that never learned to work and play well with others in Kindergarten
we don't see it as a junker that needs to be trashed. we see it as a bike that's been impounded and locked up by the chains of global capitalism and militarism. what happened at the breakaway march was an inspiringly symbolic way of showing how fragile and vulnerable the chains really are... i for one am glad to see the return of these tactics and their successfull implimentation in SF... the DC march was fucking boring as hell, even if was half a million people.
"these individuals are not accepting the allowed forms of dissent"
no comment necessary.
no comment necessary.
if you think this government and this country are going to change because there was another fucking protest , your wrong. if you think this war is going to stop because there was another peacefull protest, your wrong. you people come to these protests and when its over you go back in to your perfect lives and you think something is supposed to change?? fools. this counrty has to be burned and rebuilt by the people who want a fucking change. not by some fucking yuppie that hates the war , goes to the protest then drives off in there suv back to there stupid conforming lives. we need action, we need to stop talking and doing, because you know what?? nothing is going to change like this. this protest is amazing to me and was really positive but the sad truth is that bush is laughing at all this. he has the power and we the people need to take it from him. we need to destroy what these devils created. theres no other way.
First of all, I want to say the debate about tactics can be healthy but not when people who didn't support the breakaway march are not willing to stop and look at the specifics of what happened.
I witnessed part of the breakaway action and I just wanted to add my two sense to the mix:
The breakaway marchers showed a certain level of responsibility by waiting for the larger march to be over and then going to a separate area to do their action. In doing this they made sure that nobody was endangered who didn't choose to be there.
Anyone who actually watched the news last night would have seen that the media actually down played the property distruction and gave much more coverage to the main march and rally.
Contrary to assumption, many protesters from the main march (and even downtown shoppers) seemed to support the breakaway march even if they chose not to participate themselves. I saw people coming out of Old Navy to cheer the breakaway marchers. I also saw a broad range of people on their way home from the main rally who raised their fists in support or clapped.
I try to respect the opinion of those who don't support property destruction, but it becomes hard when those people are not willing to engage in *constructive* criticism. They act as if they have been personally injured.
One last thing about the folks who were arrested. Let's not fall into the trap of assuming that those arrested did what they are accused of. There were a lot of people in the march and not everyone broke windows, and there were a lot of bystanders. Do you trust the cops to accurately distinguish these different elements?
I witnessed part of the breakaway action and I just wanted to add my two sense to the mix:
The breakaway marchers showed a certain level of responsibility by waiting for the larger march to be over and then going to a separate area to do their action. In doing this they made sure that nobody was endangered who didn't choose to be there.
Anyone who actually watched the news last night would have seen that the media actually down played the property distruction and gave much more coverage to the main march and rally.
Contrary to assumption, many protesters from the main march (and even downtown shoppers) seemed to support the breakaway march even if they chose not to participate themselves. I saw people coming out of Old Navy to cheer the breakaway marchers. I also saw a broad range of people on their way home from the main rally who raised their fists in support or clapped.
I try to respect the opinion of those who don't support property destruction, but it becomes hard when those people are not willing to engage in *constructive* criticism. They act as if they have been personally injured.
One last thing about the folks who were arrested. Let's not fall into the trap of assuming that those arrested did what they are accused of. There were a lot of people in the march and not everyone broke windows, and there were a lot of bystanders. Do you trust the cops to accurately distinguish these different elements?
The ageism in these comments is driving me up a wall. I'm 50 years old and totally support what the "breakaway march" did. Having a march that was "out of bounds" is a good first in moving to a situation where what needs to happen is that everybody refuses to be part of the system that causes war and helps put an end to it by gumming up the works anyway they can. Everybody can and should do ant-war/ anti-capitalist grafitti eveyrday. Having 2000 pepple support anti-capitalist grafitti writing was wonderful. My favorite was someonee writing "weapon of mass distraction" on the Chronicle. They didn't report that, by the way. Breaking windows at the the BAY Area HQ of Citibank, the British Consulate, the INS, Starbucks (the owner of which is a big supporter of Zionist terror), and Victoria Secrets was a good start. Those places don't deserve to exist. We should be figuring out open and secret ways to completely stop their functionings and put them out of business. I also feel that people should try to stick to corporate, military, and governmental tasrgets and not hit individually owned
property, even gas guzzling SUVs.
People shoul be supporting those people who were arrested and continue to do things like this in the future including on the day of the escalation that soem people say will the day the war starts.
property, even gas guzzling SUVs.
People shoul be supporting those people who were arrested and continue to do things like this in the future including on the day of the escalation that soem people say will the day the war starts.
The ageism in these comments is driving me up a wall. I'm 50 years old and totally support what the "breakaway march" did. Having a march that was "out of bounds" is a good first in moving to a situation where what needs to happen is that everybody refuses to be part of the system that causes war and helps put an end to it by gumming up the works anyway they can. Everybody can and should do ant-war/ anti-capitalist grafitti eveyrday. Having 2000 pepple support anti-capitalist grafitti writing was wonderful. My favorite was someonee writing "weapon of mass distraction" on the Chronicle. They didn't report that, by the way. Breaking windows at the the BAY Area HQ of Citibank, the British Consulate, the INS, Starbucks (the owner of which is a big supporter of Zionist terror), and Victoria Secrets was a good start. Those places don't deserve to exist. We should be figuring out open and secret ways to completely stop their functionings and put them out of business. I also feel that people should try to stick to corporate, military, and governmental tasrgets and not hit individually owned
property, even gas guzzling SUVs.
People shoul be supporting those people who were arrested and continue to do things like this in the future including on the day of the escalation that soem people say will the day the war starts.
property, even gas guzzling SUVs.
People shoul be supporting those people who were arrested and continue to do things like this in the future including on the day of the escalation that soem people say will the day the war starts.
The ageism in these comments is driving me up a wall. I'm 50 years old and totally support what the "breakaway march" did. Having a march that was "out of bounds" is a good first in moving to a situation where what needs to happen is that everybody refuses to be part of the system that causes war and helps put an end to it by gumming up the works anyway they can. Everybody can and should do ant-war/ anti-capitalist grafitti eveyrday. Having 2000 pepple support anti-capitalist grafitti writing was wonderful. My favorite was someonee writing "weapon of mass distraction" on the Chronicle. They didn't report that, by the way. Breaking windows at the the BAY Area HQ of Citibank, the British Consulate, the INS, Starbucks (the owner of which is a big supporter of Zionist terror), and Victoria Secrets was a good start. Those places don't deserve to exist. We should be figuring out open and secret ways to completely stop their functionings and put them out of business. I also feel that people should try to stick to corporate, military, and governmental tasrgets and not hit individually owned
property, even gas guzzling SUVs.
People shoul be supporting those people who were arrested and continue to do things like this in the future including on the day of the escalation that soem people say will the day the war starts.
property, even gas guzzling SUVs.
People shoul be supporting those people who were arrested and continue to do things like this in the future including on the day of the escalation that soem people say will the day the war starts.
for those who say that the black bloc is not enough, and doesnt accomplish anything, what exactly do you say we should be doing?
and then, are you doing those things?
saying the black bloc isnt enough without telling us specific things you are doing that you think we should also be doing is rubbish.
and then, are you doing those things?
saying the black bloc isnt enough without telling us specific things you are doing that you think we should also be doing is rubbish.
I was at the breakaway march, mostly out of curiosity... I must say that the main contingent of the march--those in black and pink, with facemasks--were not just anticipating violence from the police, but actively trying to provoke it.
The vandalism began at citicorp. Spraypaint, dancing, scary drumb and bass music...etc. We were all waiting around, quite happy with ourselves, not sure what to do next. Some guy wearing nothing but striped underwear, his ass hanging out, was taking pictures with the crowd. two anarchists had brought their dogs, and they were sniffing eachothers but while their owners looked on from behind bandanas. Some girl regretted: "io! I wish I brought Chaos along!"--I imagine that was the name of her dog.
Then Someone threw a rock at the glass partition. And another. The crowed cheered and we marched on, overturning magazine stands--oh yes it was quite a revolution; by the time we were done the corporate media (by this I mean east bay express, sf guardian, etc.) would be liquidated from the financial district.
The music blasted on, scary hip hop, people were marching and dancing. Suddenly the police were in front of us and there was talk of breaking into a run. And there was a count down! And we ran! And we were all like: riot, yay! But then after a block we were quite winded.
We followed some windy path through all of these scyscrapers.. As we passed the trans america bldg someone with a megaphone was acting as a tour guide to those not from sf, pointing out the sights. Occaisionally we would make random turns.. The crowd was not terribly well organized, but there was a definite method to this madness: we had successfully avoided police intervention for the better part of an hour.
I was at least as confused as the police when the ins bulding suddenly appeared and we were all told by he megaphones to come in close so that we could implement some violence. And then it was all a flury of cameras clicking: spraypaint fling, it got in my hait, and glass breaking. The effeminae pink anarchists would try to shatter the doors, but for the most part the doors were too strong for us.
After we had smashed the ins building, the police force which had previously been rather lax doubled or trippled in size. I imagine they must have decided: "citicorp or ins--no harm done. But nobody fucks with embarcadero!" What was before 20 or motorcycles and a few cars, plus maybe 30 on foot was now an additional twenty horseriders and about 30 more pedestrianized police, postured with batons. Riot gear would certainly be a misleading way to put it. The police looked intimidating, but they clearly were not going to beat anyone up.
Their sudden arrival to our rear caused about half of the group to stop and confront the police. The crowd, a bit incited from the graffiti, citicorp and ins destruction (I imagine the victoria secret vandalism was more a scramble to acquire the latest catalog...) jeered at the police. The cops were silent. The crowd broke into a run... A starbucks was smashed.. I was a little frightened, we were just asking for the police to use force to put us down. by the time we were about to hit market someone with the megaphone commanded "riot on market street!"... but by then the energy level was completely drained; within a bloc a thick blue wall of police flanked us to the left and right. Someone with a megaphone jokingly remarked: "because we have been infiltrated, now is not a good time to commit acts of vandalism" or some such.
We walked on, meeting some of the last individuals from the rally who were going home. People on buses and the f trains gave us peace signs. Little did they know what bad boys and girls we had been.
The crowds energy had dwindled, mostly after the realization that any further vandalism was impossible. It was a rather helpless and dull march to powell, "whose streets? Our streets!" "what do we want? Class war!"--nothing new. Some were shouting at the bystanders to join us, take to the streets--as if this could be the moment of a mass uprising, revolution. I think we were at stockton when Some silly person suggested we "take the bart!" and about 30 men rushed against the tide of the escalator, followed by 15 police.
Someone said it would be chaos if they let off tear gas down there, but another responded that the police weren't wearing masks. Nevertheless it seemed like a bad idea-- get cornered in bart, get beat up. I followed anyway.. But unexpectedly it was clever. Bart was packed with bystanders. The black and pink masks were removed, and the police were completely evaded.
The vandalism began at citicorp. Spraypaint, dancing, scary drumb and bass music...etc. We were all waiting around, quite happy with ourselves, not sure what to do next. Some guy wearing nothing but striped underwear, his ass hanging out, was taking pictures with the crowd. two anarchists had brought their dogs, and they were sniffing eachothers but while their owners looked on from behind bandanas. Some girl regretted: "io! I wish I brought Chaos along!"--I imagine that was the name of her dog.
Then Someone threw a rock at the glass partition. And another. The crowed cheered and we marched on, overturning magazine stands--oh yes it was quite a revolution; by the time we were done the corporate media (by this I mean east bay express, sf guardian, etc.) would be liquidated from the financial district.
The music blasted on, scary hip hop, people were marching and dancing. Suddenly the police were in front of us and there was talk of breaking into a run. And there was a count down! And we ran! And we were all like: riot, yay! But then after a block we were quite winded.
We followed some windy path through all of these scyscrapers.. As we passed the trans america bldg someone with a megaphone was acting as a tour guide to those not from sf, pointing out the sights. Occaisionally we would make random turns.. The crowd was not terribly well organized, but there was a definite method to this madness: we had successfully avoided police intervention for the better part of an hour.
I was at least as confused as the police when the ins bulding suddenly appeared and we were all told by he megaphones to come in close so that we could implement some violence. And then it was all a flury of cameras clicking: spraypaint fling, it got in my hait, and glass breaking. The effeminae pink anarchists would try to shatter the doors, but for the most part the doors were too strong for us.
After we had smashed the ins building, the police force which had previously been rather lax doubled or trippled in size. I imagine they must have decided: "citicorp or ins--no harm done. But nobody fucks with embarcadero!" What was before 20 or motorcycles and a few cars, plus maybe 30 on foot was now an additional twenty horseriders and about 30 more pedestrianized police, postured with batons. Riot gear would certainly be a misleading way to put it. The police looked intimidating, but they clearly were not going to beat anyone up.
Their sudden arrival to our rear caused about half of the group to stop and confront the police. The crowd, a bit incited from the graffiti, citicorp and ins destruction (I imagine the victoria secret vandalism was more a scramble to acquire the latest catalog...) jeered at the police. The cops were silent. The crowd broke into a run... A starbucks was smashed.. I was a little frightened, we were just asking for the police to use force to put us down. by the time we were about to hit market someone with the megaphone commanded "riot on market street!"... but by then the energy level was completely drained; within a bloc a thick blue wall of police flanked us to the left and right. Someone with a megaphone jokingly remarked: "because we have been infiltrated, now is not a good time to commit acts of vandalism" or some such.
We walked on, meeting some of the last individuals from the rally who were going home. People on buses and the f trains gave us peace signs. Little did they know what bad boys and girls we had been.
The crowds energy had dwindled, mostly after the realization that any further vandalism was impossible. It was a rather helpless and dull march to powell, "whose streets? Our streets!" "what do we want? Class war!"--nothing new. Some were shouting at the bystanders to join us, take to the streets--as if this could be the moment of a mass uprising, revolution. I think we were at stockton when Some silly person suggested we "take the bart!" and about 30 men rushed against the tide of the escalator, followed by 15 police.
Someone said it would be chaos if they let off tear gas down there, but another responded that the police weren't wearing masks. Nevertheless it seemed like a bad idea-- get cornered in bart, get beat up. I followed anyway.. But unexpectedly it was clever. Bart was packed with bystanders. The black and pink masks were removed, and the police were completely evaded.
The media in L.A. didn't bother to cover anything that happened in San Francisco anyway. Red Sam has a good idea about reproducing the posters. I think some of you should not be so hard on people that are coming out to protest peacefully (sometimes for the first time). You went to your first protest once too. The breakaway march was great! I feel proud of you when I read about it. I participated in many such actions in my younger years. Any moron who blames protesters for what the media does or for what Bush does is beyond stupid. Keep up the good work.
First off, great job to the folks involved with organizing this march.
I was a little hesitant about using running as a tactic, but it seemed to work well. The march wasn't separated, which is what I feared.
There have been a few write ups of the march already, so I wont bother with most of it, but one thing that has not been mentioned so far that I thought was great was someone running down the sidewalk with a u-lock smashing parking meters! How great is that? who doesn't hate parking meters?
I was a little hesitant about using running as a tactic, but it seemed to work well. The march wasn't separated, which is what I feared.
There have been a few write ups of the march already, so I wont bother with most of it, but one thing that has not been mentioned so far that I thought was great was someone running down the sidewalk with a u-lock smashing parking meters! How great is that? who doesn't hate parking meters?
how you gonna know if bloc-ers were there at the INS protest. folks covered up for the breakaway.
Thanks for keepN it real and having a balanced movement. All is needed. Everyone did their part. Don't dis anyones ways. All options should be explored in a fight thats more important than anyones self. They felt the peace and they felt the anger. Some will hurt them where it hurts most...in their pockets. Others will hurt them by exposeing their evils. One things for sure its gonna take us all. Support eachother...we are on the same side...the one that opposes the government. Be real, walls and glass feel no pain when theyre smashed....but the structure feels the pain of their pockets being pinched. Can you hear us now? How about now? Now?
COINTELPRO refers to a decades-long FBI program of dividing groups and movements by infiltrating and subverting them through legal and illegal means. In short, it's about the government suppressing free speech. Groups that carried out actions against legitimate government targets of oppression are now under fire for alleged "violence." Undiscussed is the huge difference between violence aimed at people and actions targeting property. War, deportation, incarceration without charges, police brutality, torture, militarism, and the denial of basic human rights are all forms of violence against people. The American people can clearly see the symbolism in the targeting of symbols of oppression (such as the INS), just as they recall the Boston Tea Party. Furthermore, this was clearly a breakaway group that did not hide behind protesters who chose civil obedience over civil disobedience.
San Francisco suffers from the same advertising blight as the rest of the U.S. Public space has been co-opted by corporate speech, in the form of "naming rights" and other advertising schemes, that have scarred the places the public frequents. Flyers are quickly removed from public places, chalk messages washed off sidewalks, independent news racks are outlawed: all for the benefit of the same corporate monopolies that back the war machine. Antiwar messages tagged on the towers of these corporate oppressors offer a glimmer of poetic justice. Political graffitti is simply free speech reclaimed.
Most educated protesters understand this difference, though a few may be sucked in by the COINTELPRO label of "violent peace protesters." If Mr. Hallinan and the SFPD truly were upholding the constitution, they would be downtown dismantling the INS themselves. Don't be suckered by those who would value property before human life: that is what drives the call to war in the first place.
San Francisco suffers from the same advertising blight as the rest of the U.S. Public space has been co-opted by corporate speech, in the form of "naming rights" and other advertising schemes, that have scarred the places the public frequents. Flyers are quickly removed from public places, chalk messages washed off sidewalks, independent news racks are outlawed: all for the benefit of the same corporate monopolies that back the war machine. Antiwar messages tagged on the towers of these corporate oppressors offer a glimmer of poetic justice. Political graffitti is simply free speech reclaimed.
Most educated protesters understand this difference, though a few may be sucked in by the COINTELPRO label of "violent peace protesters." If Mr. Hallinan and the SFPD truly were upholding the constitution, they would be downtown dismantling the INS themselves. Don't be suckered by those who would value property before human life: that is what drives the call to war in the first place.
For more information:
http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLIT...
To my Anarchist sisters and brothers, I applaud your energy, your committment, and your strength in the fight for peace and justice. I do not however, condone any acts of violence or vandalism done in the name of our cause.
While I understand (and share) your anger and frustration at corporate control of our society, window smashing and tagging of corporate property alienates our moderate brothers and sisters from joining our fight.
All mindsets are needed for this lengthy battle to rid our culture of corporate vermin. Only through mass mobilzation can we win against the monolithic "MAN". Violence is THEIR way not ours. When you do violence (even for noble causes) you're doing exactly what they hope for. It gives them fuel to discredit and discount everything we're working for.
I hope that you will channel your immense energys and anger into construction not destruction from now on.
Peace!
While I understand (and share) your anger and frustration at corporate control of our society, window smashing and tagging of corporate property alienates our moderate brothers and sisters from joining our fight.
All mindsets are needed for this lengthy battle to rid our culture of corporate vermin. Only through mass mobilzation can we win against the monolithic "MAN". Violence is THEIR way not ours. When you do violence (even for noble causes) you're doing exactly what they hope for. It gives them fuel to discredit and discount everything we're working for.
I hope that you will channel your immense energys and anger into construction not destruction from now on.
Peace!
While we should view history as linear, in one sense, where we envision progressive things that have never been done before in the future (after all, during the revolutionary war, few groups had overthrown monarchy before) , it also makes sense to look at the past for what tactics have been successful in the past.
Can anyone who objects to property destruction above provide a list of successful mass nonviolent campaigns that have achieved their aims?
No one in that group yesterday looks down at other people who wouldn't break a law or do civil disobedience - indeed, 90% of that group didn't so much as use a piece of chalk to write on the sidewalk, but rather were along for the walk.
One couldn't include the labor movement winning the 8 hour day, minimum wage and union rights - just read In Dubious Battle by John Steinbeck about the agricultural labor fights in California. Labor history is totally bloody, with attacks by company security and local police, yet today even upper middle class people get to have an 8 hour day without a drip of sweat.
One certainly couldn't list any of our foreign policy being changed by popular democratic nonviolent movements - did the US people vote for our CIA to overthrow leaders in Iran, the Congo, Indonesia, (and to set up Saddam Hussein himself in the 80s) and provide all these countries with arms to kill all their dissident citizens by the millions (yes, millions!). It is unpleasant but is reality.
It's nice for people have have the privilege of sitting in the US where it is nice and talking down about people in other countries who must resort to violence to even live and survive, like in El Salvador or Guatemala. but realize that it is due to the usually violent or property destructive battles of others. Even in the US legislative process, wealthier parties don't simply give up something that they have because they see that the majority of people would like it to be different. It has historically always involved a struggle.
Personally, I think the US and Canada are more pleasant than Mexico, Brazil, Venezuela etc. which have very similar colonial histories because labor leaders here fought hard, suffered, but also won their battles in the US, but not in Mexico.
Anyway, the big risk with any sort of black bloc or property targeting tactic is that any random deviant criminal who isn't with the program could decide to come along, for instance, and hurt bystanders or low wage security guards or do something like hurt a mom'n' pop store. Also, they say that the communist party was half FBI agents in the early 70s, and that a lot of the more insane destructive acts of that time were actually devised or committed by government workers.
Can anyone who objects to property destruction above provide a list of successful mass nonviolent campaigns that have achieved their aims?
No one in that group yesterday looks down at other people who wouldn't break a law or do civil disobedience - indeed, 90% of that group didn't so much as use a piece of chalk to write on the sidewalk, but rather were along for the walk.
One couldn't include the labor movement winning the 8 hour day, minimum wage and union rights - just read In Dubious Battle by John Steinbeck about the agricultural labor fights in California. Labor history is totally bloody, with attacks by company security and local police, yet today even upper middle class people get to have an 8 hour day without a drip of sweat.
One certainly couldn't list any of our foreign policy being changed by popular democratic nonviolent movements - did the US people vote for our CIA to overthrow leaders in Iran, the Congo, Indonesia, (and to set up Saddam Hussein himself in the 80s) and provide all these countries with arms to kill all their dissident citizens by the millions (yes, millions!). It is unpleasant but is reality.
It's nice for people have have the privilege of sitting in the US where it is nice and talking down about people in other countries who must resort to violence to even live and survive, like in El Salvador or Guatemala. but realize that it is due to the usually violent or property destructive battles of others. Even in the US legislative process, wealthier parties don't simply give up something that they have because they see that the majority of people would like it to be different. It has historically always involved a struggle.
Personally, I think the US and Canada are more pleasant than Mexico, Brazil, Venezuela etc. which have very similar colonial histories because labor leaders here fought hard, suffered, but also won their battles in the US, but not in Mexico.
Anyway, the big risk with any sort of black bloc or property targeting tactic is that any random deviant criminal who isn't with the program could decide to come along, for instance, and hurt bystanders or low wage security guards or do something like hurt a mom'n' pop store. Also, they say that the communist party was half FBI agents in the early 70s, and that a lot of the more insane destructive acts of that time were actually devised or committed by government workers.
I participated in the breakaway march after the larger march on Jan. 18. I thought it was a great idea and look forward to seeing similar, more militant actions in the future. It's a good idea to wheatpaste posters all over the city that say something like, "riot when the war starts." While massive marches and rallies are particularly necessary for the more moderate anti-war participants, for those who don't believe in property destruction or graffitt, and for those who are not in a position to get arrested for various reasons, other tactics that include un-permitted marches and property destruction of corporations and government offices directly benefetting from the drive for war are also useful and necessary.
Politicians and the wealthy take notice when hundreds of thousands or millions of people march and rally 'peacefully' (I use quotes because damage of property doesn't properly seem defined as violence), but more uncontrolled behavior that results in presenting a strong political stand and hurting the profits of corporations, I think, presents a greater threat to their power. A march begins and ends in a couple of hours. People then go home and continue their normal lives, and the war starts or continues. Destruction of property owned by the government and corporations is more of a direct threat.
Also, marchers noticed that it was a BREAK-AWAY march, meant not to involve demonstrators who didn't want to be involved. The media overwhelmingly covered the masses of people who marched in San Francisco, D.C., Portland, etc. I saw a few media reports of the break-away march. Nonetheless, the people who try to control our lives in the government and corporations couldn't help but notice.
My only hope is that the destruction increases exponentially until the war plans or the war ceases. When immigrants are being detained, tortured, deported and hundreds of thousands will be killed in a war against Iraq, we must take all measures to prevent the system of war and oppression from operating normally.
Politicians and the wealthy take notice when hundreds of thousands or millions of people march and rally 'peacefully' (I use quotes because damage of property doesn't properly seem defined as violence), but more uncontrolled behavior that results in presenting a strong political stand and hurting the profits of corporations, I think, presents a greater threat to their power. A march begins and ends in a couple of hours. People then go home and continue their normal lives, and the war starts or continues. Destruction of property owned by the government and corporations is more of a direct threat.
Also, marchers noticed that it was a BREAK-AWAY march, meant not to involve demonstrators who didn't want to be involved. The media overwhelmingly covered the masses of people who marched in San Francisco, D.C., Portland, etc. I saw a few media reports of the break-away march. Nonetheless, the people who try to control our lives in the government and corporations couldn't help but notice.
My only hope is that the destruction increases exponentially until the war plans or the war ceases. When immigrants are being detained, tortured, deported and hundreds of thousands will be killed in a war against Iraq, we must take all measures to prevent the system of war and oppression from operating normally.
First of all, the breakaway march was not 20 people, nor 200, it was probably more than 2000, possibly even 3000.
I think that nonviolent tactics work very well a lot of times, but there is such a thing as nonviolent civil disobedience. You can break the law and be nonviolent. A lot of people don't consider corporate/government property destruction violent, either.
To completely discount the possibility of violence or property destruction is not only stupid tactically, as it puts all the power in the hands of our oppressors, but activists who preach pacifism in this country usually go about it in ways that are really racist and patriotic.
If anyone wants to hear more about how fucked up pacifism is, I suggest listening to a lecture by Craig Rosenbhaum called "The Legitimacy of Political Violence," that he gave a little bit ago (http://portland.indymedia.org/features.php3?feature_id=2) or reading Pacifism as Pathology by Ward Churchill, which is an essay (summary at: http://www.defenestrator.org/roblosricos/pacifism.html) but was recently turned into a short book with a few other essays in it. Maybe you scholarly (AKA beourgois) pacifists will listen to these scholars who have studied the subject in depth.
If you aren't so beourgois, and want a taste of real people who feel a need to use violence to combat the oppression that they face, I suggest reading "Die Nigger Die!" by H. Rap Brown, and Consequence: Beyond Resisting Rape by [I can't remember her name- crap!}
I think that nonviolent tactics work very well a lot of times, but there is such a thing as nonviolent civil disobedience. You can break the law and be nonviolent. A lot of people don't consider corporate/government property destruction violent, either.
To completely discount the possibility of violence or property destruction is not only stupid tactically, as it puts all the power in the hands of our oppressors, but activists who preach pacifism in this country usually go about it in ways that are really racist and patriotic.
If anyone wants to hear more about how fucked up pacifism is, I suggest listening to a lecture by Craig Rosenbhaum called "The Legitimacy of Political Violence," that he gave a little bit ago (http://portland.indymedia.org/features.php3?feature_id=2) or reading Pacifism as Pathology by Ward Churchill, which is an essay (summary at: http://www.defenestrator.org/roblosricos/pacifism.html) but was recently turned into a short book with a few other essays in it. Maybe you scholarly (AKA beourgois) pacifists will listen to these scholars who have studied the subject in depth.
If you aren't so beourgois, and want a taste of real people who feel a need to use violence to combat the oppression that they face, I suggest reading "Die Nigger Die!" by H. Rap Brown, and Consequence: Beyond Resisting Rape by [I can't remember her name- crap!}
On Monday, the network news will feature YOU breaking coffee store windows
The country sees this vandalism and mayhem and concludes that you represent the anti-war movement. They see the violence you cause and ask themselves if these people really want peace. The movement has no credibility as it stands now, your violence only makes you look like idiots.
Thank you very much,
The country sees this vandalism and mayhem and concludes that you represent the anti-war movement. They see the violence you cause and ask themselves if these people really want peace. The movement has no credibility as it stands now, your violence only makes you look like idiots.
Thank you very much,
I am absolutly amazed at the stupidy of the people that are writing in. The rally was a PEACE rally. Advocating peace. By causing damage to people and property you are completly undermining the honor of the rally. No one looks up and takes notice when you damage their property. They just shut themselves off from different points of view. They refuse to give any support to the cause. The people that went off in their seperate rally are selfish. Did anyone consider why the rally was done on Martin Luther King Jr. weekend? Maybe it's because he advocated NON-VIOLENCE. A word that is obviously foreign to any of you. He believed that peaceful protests would force the government to listen to their cause. I went to the protest and I abided by the law, and that will show the administration that 200,000 people organized for one cause. Not 200 people that were acting like raging hormonal teenagers that need anger-managment. How dare you make it seem like you had anything to do with the peace movement? Next time International ANSWER wants a permit for a protest, the city can say "Well, last time people went wild and destroy property in our streets, so HELL NO!". Your actions didn't solve anything. You just made 200,000 people look like idiots for being slightly involved with the same cause as you.
Unfortunately, being over 60 and in lousy shape, I couldn't keep up with the breakaway march as it headed up Sansome and Montgomery. I was pleasantly surprised to come to the INS office and see the damage left by my younger, more energetic and bolder comrades, who had already departed when I got there.
I have taken part in three peaceful, legal protests at that location in the last month. Although I realize that there are good arguments for not creating a "violent" incident when our more vulnerable immigrant brothers and sisters are around, I felt that we should have done something more. At least we could have blocked the street corner and totally messed up traffic in the financial district on January 10, when we had about 400 demonstrators!
The argument for doing physical damage to the INS office is NOT that it will hurt the government financially or that it will disrupt their operations. Rather, it is that any kind of physical damage to the INS is a loud statement that the INS should be attacked and, when and where possible, destroyed, rather than simply protested.
Not having been involved in planning the actual action, I had had reservations about it and had feared that it might wind up being trivial. But the attack on the INS made it all worthwhile.
We need to establish as widely as possible the attitude that the U.S. state apparatus -- especially its military and police agencies -- must be opposed by every means possible. I won't put down those who only undertake pacifist-style actions, but I hope they and their supporters will not put down those who take more militant action against the imperialist regime in the U.S., especially as it becomes more aggressive and fascistic.
P.S. I find it interesting that people like Spenser and Sasha, who would face absolutely no repression from the state or anyone else for what they say, don't give email addresses or any contact information. They are essentially anonymous. Why? Are they all the same person with different names?
I have taken part in three peaceful, legal protests at that location in the last month. Although I realize that there are good arguments for not creating a "violent" incident when our more vulnerable immigrant brothers and sisters are around, I felt that we should have done something more. At least we could have blocked the street corner and totally messed up traffic in the financial district on January 10, when we had about 400 demonstrators!
The argument for doing physical damage to the INS office is NOT that it will hurt the government financially or that it will disrupt their operations. Rather, it is that any kind of physical damage to the INS is a loud statement that the INS should be attacked and, when and where possible, destroyed, rather than simply protested.
Not having been involved in planning the actual action, I had had reservations about it and had feared that it might wind up being trivial. But the attack on the INS made it all worthwhile.
We need to establish as widely as possible the attitude that the U.S. state apparatus -- especially its military and police agencies -- must be opposed by every means possible. I won't put down those who only undertake pacifist-style actions, but I hope they and their supporters will not put down those who take more militant action against the imperialist regime in the U.S., especially as it becomes more aggressive and fascistic.
P.S. I find it interesting that people like Spenser and Sasha, who would face absolutely no repression from the state or anyone else for what they say, don't give email addresses or any contact information. They are essentially anonymous. Why? Are they all the same person with different names?
I personally welcome a variety of tactics. I was more offended by the commodification of the protest than by the anarchist march.
Arounds every corner was another stand, selling us protest buttons, shirts, signs, etc. I would be quite interested in seeing A.N.S.W.E.R.'s financial books. They seemed to take in a huge amount of money, and nobody questions where that money went.
As for the Anarchist March. I would imagine more damage was caused at the main march by the massive amounts of litter left behind in their wake, not to mention to damage to numerous trees and grassy areas at the end of the march.
I find protest parades to be useless. It always seems like a bunch of people giving poorly written speeches to people who already agree with them, then walking around to take pictures of clever costumes and signs. This hardly seems effective to me.
But, we should have a variety of tactics for different levels of involvement. We should not be demonizing people who we do not agree with. Once you start defining who is "acceptable," the movement will fail.
I personally look forward to the day when we are all dancing the flaming shell of the Society we currently..
Blue
Arounds every corner was another stand, selling us protest buttons, shirts, signs, etc. I would be quite interested in seeing A.N.S.W.E.R.'s financial books. They seemed to take in a huge amount of money, and nobody questions where that money went.
As for the Anarchist March. I would imagine more damage was caused at the main march by the massive amounts of litter left behind in their wake, not to mention to damage to numerous trees and grassy areas at the end of the march.
I find protest parades to be useless. It always seems like a bunch of people giving poorly written speeches to people who already agree with them, then walking around to take pictures of clever costumes and signs. This hardly seems effective to me.
But, we should have a variety of tactics for different levels of involvement. We should not be demonizing people who we do not agree with. Once you start defining who is "acceptable," the movement will fail.
I personally look forward to the day when we are all dancing the flaming shell of the Society we currently..
Blue
I think that people who don't think that the breakaway march people are part of the "peace movement" are just putting their own biases onto what the movement should be. These people are definitely opposed to the war, and seem a lot more angry and willing to do something about it than a lot of the people at the bigger rally. I was handed this pamphlet at the protest that deconstructs what "peace" is a bit. check it out at:
http://www.linefeed.org/~cactus/pip.html
http://www.linefeed.org/~cactus/pip.html
We can't have peace till we stop the war. Any means necessary to do that are justified. If the warmongers make violence the only way they can be stopped, then they can expect violence. They bring it on themselves.
Two things...
To the person so suspicious of ANSWER...at least before the march, ANSWER was in debt, with quite a number of its activists hoping for reimbursment for the costs they ran up on their personal credit cards. As for where the money is going, if you had any idea how much the sound systems cost, you'd get a life. If you saw their books, you'd give them money.
As for the 'anti-capitalist' march...what's anti-caplitalist about making work for glass makers? The break-away 'march' had zero effect on capitalist organizations or the power of capitalists. But the damage will consume energy and resources when it gets repaired. The net result of the march will simply be more of what capitalism is so good at producing: waste.
To the person so suspicious of ANSWER...at least before the march, ANSWER was in debt, with quite a number of its activists hoping for reimbursment for the costs they ran up on their personal credit cards. As for where the money is going, if you had any idea how much the sound systems cost, you'd get a life. If you saw their books, you'd give them money.
As for the 'anti-capitalist' march...what's anti-caplitalist about making work for glass makers? The break-away 'march' had zero effect on capitalist organizations or the power of capitalists. But the damage will consume energy and resources when it gets repaired. The net result of the march will simply be more of what capitalism is so good at producing: waste.
For more information:
http://knowyourpeace.net
To "know your peace" ...
I was with you until you started talking about how it is just making waste or whatever. This is ridiculous. No movement in U.S. history has come close to stopping a war until it showed some militancy in its protesting. So keep rationalizing your own risk-free bullshit, but don't insult us for it.
I was with you until you started talking about how it is just making waste or whatever. This is ridiculous. No movement in U.S. history has come close to stopping a war until it showed some militancy in its protesting. So keep rationalizing your own risk-free bullshit, but don't insult us for it.
Saying that property destruction is not violence doesn't make it so. Vandalism is far less violent than hitting someone, but for most people, it's on the continuum of angry behavior ranging from speaking anger all the way to killing someone. A broken window is a sign of anger, and anger is often the basis and impetus for violent behavior.
That's why the drive to war is so hateful. Propaganda is being used to make us angry at Iraquis and Koreans so that we can stomach a fight.
The liberals who criticize violence are as ignorant as those who advocate for vandalism as nonviolent protest. People are not turned off by a smashed window. If anything, it taps into their frustration with the system, government, chain stores, and work. The problem is where to go from there. A smashed window doesn't imply anything, except perhaps a riot, if the political conditions for one actually exist (and they don't). Few people associate it with a revolution, because they don't see a revolution anytime soon.
That's my 2c.
That's why the drive to war is so hateful. Propaganda is being used to make us angry at Iraquis and Koreans so that we can stomach a fight.
The liberals who criticize violence are as ignorant as those who advocate for vandalism as nonviolent protest. People are not turned off by a smashed window. If anything, it taps into their frustration with the system, government, chain stores, and work. The problem is where to go from there. A smashed window doesn't imply anything, except perhaps a riot, if the political conditions for one actually exist (and they don't). Few people associate it with a revolution, because they don't see a revolution anytime soon.
That's my 2c.
What a transparently phony police operation. Can you spell C-O-I-N-T-E-L-P-R-O? I knew you could....
This is an obvious attempt to discredit and undermine the antiwar movement. What's funny is that the "organizers" of this "action" have the nerve to say that the police "infiltrated" the march -- as if they weren't the police (feds) to begin with! What chutzpah!
It is especially disgusting to see all the little trust-fund trendies with their $20 bandannas and cute little nose rings: fashionista fascists brainwashed by the very corporate media they supposedly disdain, and not an original thought between the whole lot of them.
Each and every one of these assholes should be arrested, made to clean up the mess they made, and required to pay for the damage. And the useful idiots among them -- the majority -- should either get down on their knees and apologize to the rest of the antiwar movement, or be shunned by all. Whoever posted their pictures on Indymedia has done us all a great service: THESE ARE THE CULPRITS! And they should be treated accordingly.
Anyone who tries to disrupt a peaceful and legal antiwar protest is an enemy of the movement, and the "organizers" of this disruption need to be identified, prosecuted, and strung up by their nonexistent balls.
-- Justin Raimondo
Antiwar.com
This is an obvious attempt to discredit and undermine the antiwar movement. What's funny is that the "organizers" of this "action" have the nerve to say that the police "infiltrated" the march -- as if they weren't the police (feds) to begin with! What chutzpah!
It is especially disgusting to see all the little trust-fund trendies with their $20 bandannas and cute little nose rings: fashionista fascists brainwashed by the very corporate media they supposedly disdain, and not an original thought between the whole lot of them.
Each and every one of these assholes should be arrested, made to clean up the mess they made, and required to pay for the damage. And the useful idiots among them -- the majority -- should either get down on their knees and apologize to the rest of the antiwar movement, or be shunned by all. Whoever posted their pictures on Indymedia has done us all a great service: THESE ARE THE CULPRITS! And they should be treated accordingly.
Anyone who tries to disrupt a peaceful and legal antiwar protest is an enemy of the movement, and the "organizers" of this disruption need to be identified, prosecuted, and strung up by their nonexistent balls.
-- Justin Raimondo
Antiwar.com
For more information:
http://www.antiwar.com
"an obvious attempt to discredit and undermine the antiwar movement."
But damn it feels good!
The antiwar mvmt is doing fine on it's own. Chill out.
But damn it feels good!
The antiwar mvmt is doing fine on it's own. Chill out.
by wasting time and energy critizing the radical movement, your not only buying into the government view of them, your spilting the anti war movement. different people believe in different tactics, but no one believes in hurting civilians and thats all that matters.
personally i think the direct action radical movements tactics are much more viable, if all 200,000 people did DA the war might actually have a chance of being stopped. by you dont see us criticizing all the protesters who listen to speaches and march where the cops let them. thats what the choose to do, and its good that they are doing that. but i cant believe some have the gual to try and pick fights within the movement
personally i think the direct action radical movements tactics are much more viable, if all 200,000 people did DA the war might actually have a chance of being stopped. by you dont see us criticizing all the protesters who listen to speaches and march where the cops let them. thats what the choose to do, and its good that they are doing that. but i cant believe some have the gual to try and pick fights within the movement
No offense Justin Raimondo but you are totally full of it. This was not a "conintelpro" act, it was an act of direct action by people very devoted to social justice. When you are advocating THROWING IN JAIL of comrades, then you are siding with the state which is waging this war in the first place, and are showing your true colors. I was in this break away march and it was nothing you described. More then half of the march was just normal people from SF who wanted to take a more active stand for their beliefs, and there were many people from immigrant families with us. The vandalism on the INS building was a great act of protest against the deportations and detentions and didn't result in any personal harm to anyone. The march was broken off from the main one so that people could join it by choice and did not put anyone who didn't want to be there in danger. Oh, and if this was a "conintelpro" organized march (ridiculous) then why were the police so aggressive against us? Wouldn't they have been using it as an excuse to attack the "peaceful" protesters, or tried to highlight it on the news? It seems to me that niether actions were ever gone into in depth in the media, but of course I already expected that to happen. Your whole theory is hogwash, and your advocation of throwing anti-war activists in jail is disgusting.
this makes me so sad. by acting out in a violent and destructive fashion we only sink to the level of those we would remove from the seats of power. (yes, i am aware that the destruction of property is fundamentally different from the murder of living beings. but i think the violence for violence's sake is the same in either case) the system that we are forced to live under operates in such a way that the actions of 2000 violent people in black are looked upon by a vast majority of the population as criminals. (if the numbers were in the hunderd of thousands in green then it would be an army) i do not believe that anything constructive can be accomplished with violence. if i thought so i would kill people with my bare hands to get it done. while destorying the windows of the INS, gap or starbucks certainly feels powerful and could possibly breed unity it accomplishes very little. the corporations raged against in such actions are so large and so rich that 5 broken windows or 100 broken windows hardly makes a dent in their power. the money required to fix this vandalism is a speck of their annual budget. in one week the destruction will be repaired and the only result of this will be the poor opinions of anarchists and anti-capitalists by moderate "democrat" or "green" people in this country. in the long run, this violence is hardly beneficial. to incite a true revolution we need to do it through unity instead of destruction. if there were a 10 million people in the streets peacefully demanding the end of the INS detentions and corporate powers, or even 100 at every INS building every day protesting peacefull, the response by the country and by the world would be much different. but this solution takes much more work and dedication than the stones and spray paint answer. only when all living beings are treated with respect will we have true autonomy and freedom from opression.
Therefore I must tell you, first of all, what Anarchism is not.
It is not bombs, disorder, or chaos.
It is not robbery and murder.
It is not a war of each against all.
It is not a return to barbarism or to the wild state of man.
Anarchism is the very opposite of all that.
-Berkman
Therefore I must tell you, first of all, what Anarchism is not.
It is not bombs, disorder, or chaos.
It is not robbery and murder.
It is not a war of each against all.
It is not a return to barbarism or to the wild state of man.
Anarchism is the very opposite of all that.
-Berkman
There are no parallels to be drawn between those who engage in property destruction in a symbolic attack of the corridors of Amerikkkan power and the actions of the bloodthirsty Amerikkkan Empire who reins down great walls of fire capable of destroying thousands of human vessels in a second! Windows are not human, in fact nothing about windows are even alive. To destroy the completeness of a window has nothing to do with violence or non-peace. I thought we had worked all this out before but I guess that those who wish to exclude an effective and interesting form of dissent and concrete objection will never stop at trying to impose their subjective moral will over the rest of us! Leave us alone.. you do your thing and we'll do ours. Mutual respect and confidence. We are confident in our tactics and beliefs, we support your tactics and engage in them but we are not limited to any one tactic or way! We are free in our symbolism and we are your friends. We are not the enemy, when pepper-spray is applied directly to the eyes of protestors in a peaceful lockdown it is not us who are doing it; it is the pigs! We have common enemies, they are the agents of the repressive state appartatus! We admire your strength, the risks that you take when you sit and allow yourselves to be brutalized and arrested. These tactics are indeed strong and deserve respect but they are not the totality of resistance and never have been. The next time I see someone wearing a Che patch or shirt telling us not to break something or someone purporting to follow the ways of Ghandi telling me not to break inanimate objects I must put it to them: Che was not a peaceful man - look up his actions- he may have been right but he killed many people! Second, Ghandi was neither a peaceful man- he was responsible for deaths of thousands of Indian activists. He was a facist who sought to control the minds of his followers in order that they would respond in the manner that he advocated and only that manner. He exiled those that disagreed with his tactics. Ghandi led thousands into certain death conforntations 'peacefully' perhaps but their bodies became the weapons their martyrdom the message. Ghandi was indeed a very violent individual- he was right! His cause was just! But if I hear his named defamed in the cause of justifying complete adhearance to rules set down from above like he himself advocated I must resist this attempt to colonize my mind! Strict non-violence in symbolism and action is facism - why? Because in order for all to follow the definition of non-violence there must be a small group or individuals quantifying violence. There is no such thing as violence - it is a construct - so for the peace advocates to tell those that break windows that they are not peaceful - is an attempt for them to subjectify to make concrete a concept which they have arbitrarily drawn boundaries to! If the boundaries have not been drawn by those advocates and they have borrowed them for say Christianity or Judaism is this not even worse! Who among us would say that they are a Christain? And if so - that is fine but I would feel that many others are not and that must be OK for us to continue together otherwise this is in fact only a religious movement- If this is the case then I feel that we must present it as so! And then see what happens! Otherwise if we reject the facism of thought control and the arbitary and historically deteremental moral rhetoric of religion; then we must accept and respect the DIVERSITY OF TACTICS - within a realm appropriate to the threat considered. Indeee anarchists and anti-capitalists are not calling for murder or hurting people with the exception of self-defensive action! That is action which cannot be avoided and is necessary in order to prevent the deaths or injuries of themselves or fellow protestors- including ALL activists regardless of their reasons for attending! The black bloc will attempt to rescue any activists they can when possible because they believe in 'returning to fight another day' and in 'not getting caught' and these things are acceptable to their outlook in regards to the long-term struggle against capitalist and governmental oppression. They respect all human life and are struggling to stop the destruction of it wherever it be! They will save the follower of Ghandi and the Republican in order to have an arguement about their politics later in some alley. Anarchists and anti-capitalists/ anti-authoritarians respect all LIFE - while holding the power to self-defence. They also respect all congruent opinions while holding the power to harshly disagree. But they will never attempt to impose their views upon others!
If, during World War II, freedom fighters destroyed a concentration camp, would that be an act of violence, or would it be completely justified? So, it is fair to say that destruction of property is not always inappropriate. Considering the destruction of property on Saturday, it is necessary to acknowledge context. Private propery is predicated on violence. The violence private property necessitates, on this continent, goes back to the genocide of the Indians, all the way to the violence of the modern State. Far more than "not doing anything," breaking corporate/INS windows connects ubiquitous State/corporate violence to their so-called "harmless" visible expressions (Starbucks).
One may analyze all day long weather or not destruction of inanimate objects is violence. Regardless, logistical questions, and relevancy are far more valuable topics of discussion.
I argue the breakaway march was inappropriate based on tactics (i.e. strategy), rather than values. My point is simple, and it comes in the form of a question. What right, or by what authority, may one group steal another group’s message and replace it with their own?
I do not oppose the destruction of private property used to oppress cultures. But, to use a tactic in someone else’s name is unacceptable. I have lived with rock throwers from the late 60's and early 70's, and I acknowledge the point that 250,000 militant demonstrators will end unacceptable policies faster than 249,000 passive demonstrators. Just organize an independent action, which does not confuse who's doing what.
Be militant; destroy what needs to be destroyed. Let us do it with our own name, so people know the difference between ANSWER, and the break away march. Saturday's action gives me the impression that the breakaway march hid and used the larger group as a protective shield. In my opinion that is a smart tactic, except it marginalizes people who want nothing to do with this type of "break" away march.
The reason why I make this point is that I’d bet big money the organizers/participants of the break away march do not have the courage to organize their own rally and, arguably, do what needs to be done. If courage, and practical interest exists, than demonstrate in this fashion. If the courage and interest does not exist, wait until it does. Personally, I see the wait being short because, one, George Bush is a fuck face, and two, more importantly by the way, our economy is in the pits, giving young unemployed men, women and mixed humans, plenty of time to study our governments foreign and domestic policies. Let us think twice about hiding behind some peace movement in order to use divergent tactics.
I argue the breakaway march was inappropriate based on tactics (i.e. strategy), rather than values. My point is simple, and it comes in the form of a question. What right, or by what authority, may one group steal another group’s message and replace it with their own?
I do not oppose the destruction of private property used to oppress cultures. But, to use a tactic in someone else’s name is unacceptable. I have lived with rock throwers from the late 60's and early 70's, and I acknowledge the point that 250,000 militant demonstrators will end unacceptable policies faster than 249,000 passive demonstrators. Just organize an independent action, which does not confuse who's doing what.
Be militant; destroy what needs to be destroyed. Let us do it with our own name, so people know the difference between ANSWER, and the break away march. Saturday's action gives me the impression that the breakaway march hid and used the larger group as a protective shield. In my opinion that is a smart tactic, except it marginalizes people who want nothing to do with this type of "break" away march.
The reason why I make this point is that I’d bet big money the organizers/participants of the break away march do not have the courage to organize their own rally and, arguably, do what needs to be done. If courage, and practical interest exists, than demonstrate in this fashion. If the courage and interest does not exist, wait until it does. Personally, I see the wait being short because, one, George Bush is a fuck face, and two, more importantly by the way, our economy is in the pits, giving young unemployed men, women and mixed humans, plenty of time to study our governments foreign and domestic policies. Let us think twice about hiding behind some peace movement in order to use divergent tactics.
Hey, Dick, what part of "Break-Away demo" do you not understand?
The actions of the breakaway group clearly speak for themselves, not the rest of the rally. You're singing the corporate media's typical oversimplified song.
The actions of the breakaway group clearly speak for themselves, not the rest of the rally. You're singing the corporate media's typical oversimplified song.
For more information:
http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLIT...
could some of these thugs pick up a copy of guerilla warfare and read it please. the point is to turn the public to your side. the use of violence (or whatever semantic argument you want to get into about what the destruction of anything is) MUST have a purpose. Meaningless smashing of windows does nothing for our cause. All it does is make YOU feel better, you selfish pricks.
Did you even read about what happened during the break away and what the "targets" were? Why don't you go do that and get back to us.
i am getting really pissed of with all these selfproclaimed experts giving their opinions about the black pac.
and what pisses me off even more about it, is that all those selfcontent hypocrits can't seem to find any sympathy for people that are different then they are....and that's just fucking scary. especially when you realize that these hypocrits were actually demonstrating as well this saturday....yuk....
leave eachother be, man! we don't ask your opinion. we don't ask your advice about being more constructive do we?
we don't bother you and your ways either.
we didn't hurt anyone. we shook hands with yuppies in open sportscars!
and we made very sure that we were not associated with the organized peacerally.
try to treat us with some respect.
how come some comments uphere, whine and bitch about the agression and violence, while others make it look like a laugh, ridiculing the fact that we pushed over the freemedia stands. that doesn't add up, now does it?
all you guys with your shortsighted ignorant motherfucking opinions about the blac pac and how they make you look bad, and how in your eyes it's not very fucking constructive; go home and watch tv you dumb fuck! you think you know it all but what makes you such an expert? what do you do? how fucking constructive are you, huh? are you really sure you feel as strongly about stuff as us?
are you willing to get yourself arrested because you think you have something important to say, or would you just walk away, ditching your message and giving up on trying to chance the world?
BLACK PAC RULES!
keep the spirit.
i also wanted to say something about grafitti being in fact a very constructive way of protesting.
those 200 000 people in the peace rally are all gone now, right; they were really impressive but the public and the media don't see those people anymore now. they're totally forgotten, their message is lost the moment the rally packs up.
the grafitti (and other ways of 'vandalism') on the other hand is still their. and is a very powerfull way to make people think if you do it right.
everybody that walks by the SF Chronicle building, and sees the words 'weapons of mass destraction' written above the corporate newsstands, is sure to think about the message it brings.
the public will always notice graffiti....and it can make em laugh and think.
i 'm real happy with what i saw happening in the break-away march. more power to ya!
oh, and uhm Mr. Bowman, we're not all into the 'corporate bicycle delivery' business, you discriminating fuck; I just can't believe you were with me demonstrating against the INS last friday; that breaks my heart.
PEACE!
and what pisses me off even more about it, is that all those selfcontent hypocrits can't seem to find any sympathy for people that are different then they are....and that's just fucking scary. especially when you realize that these hypocrits were actually demonstrating as well this saturday....yuk....
leave eachother be, man! we don't ask your opinion. we don't ask your advice about being more constructive do we?
we don't bother you and your ways either.
we didn't hurt anyone. we shook hands with yuppies in open sportscars!
and we made very sure that we were not associated with the organized peacerally.
try to treat us with some respect.
how come some comments uphere, whine and bitch about the agression and violence, while others make it look like a laugh, ridiculing the fact that we pushed over the freemedia stands. that doesn't add up, now does it?
all you guys with your shortsighted ignorant motherfucking opinions about the blac pac and how they make you look bad, and how in your eyes it's not very fucking constructive; go home and watch tv you dumb fuck! you think you know it all but what makes you such an expert? what do you do? how fucking constructive are you, huh? are you really sure you feel as strongly about stuff as us?
are you willing to get yourself arrested because you think you have something important to say, or would you just walk away, ditching your message and giving up on trying to chance the world?
BLACK PAC RULES!
keep the spirit.
i also wanted to say something about grafitti being in fact a very constructive way of protesting.
those 200 000 people in the peace rally are all gone now, right; they were really impressive but the public and the media don't see those people anymore now. they're totally forgotten, their message is lost the moment the rally packs up.
the grafitti (and other ways of 'vandalism') on the other hand is still their. and is a very powerfull way to make people think if you do it right.
everybody that walks by the SF Chronicle building, and sees the words 'weapons of mass destraction' written above the corporate newsstands, is sure to think about the message it brings.
the public will always notice graffiti....and it can make em laugh and think.
i 'm real happy with what i saw happening in the break-away march. more power to ya!
oh, and uhm Mr. Bowman, we're not all into the 'corporate bicycle delivery' business, you discriminating fuck; I just can't believe you were with me demonstrating against the INS last friday; that breaks my heart.
PEACE!
The purpose is crystal clear to any thinking person, Matt: a small, independent, breakaway group targeted carefully chosen symbols of oppression in the U.S. today. No humans were targeted or injured at all. While a handful of paid COINTELPRO thugs attempt to denounce these actions as harmful to the movement, the reality is the corrupt billionaire politicians calling for this war are scared to death of any big protests. Why? Because they know that the other 249,000 protestors may one day join them in reclaiming this great country from its corrupt, corporate-beholden leaders.
Just because people are marching for peace, doesn't necessarily make them pacifists. The difference is they oppose useless militarism, and they're aware of their duty to justice:
"whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
Just because people are marching for peace, doesn't necessarily make them pacifists. The difference is they oppose useless militarism, and they're aware of their duty to justice:
"whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
One, you denigrated my name. What kind of tactical, rational, logical or valuable point does that make? Heroic effort to fracture the anti US government movement by attacking someone personally, and this separation is a favored tactic of, guess who, cointelpro.
And two, what I don’t understand about the break away march is, why didn’t it happen yesterday, or Friday, or any other day than Saturday.
Therefore, I continue to question the courageousness of the action, and the ability to choose when to do an action, and when to NOT contaminate another’s action.
And two, what I don’t understand about the break away march is, why didn’t it happen yesterday, or Friday, or any other day than Saturday.
Therefore, I continue to question the courageousness of the action, and the ability to choose when to do an action, and when to NOT contaminate another’s action.
Too bad you're so clueless, Dick. No one stole ANSWER's message, is that so hard to understand? You're simply engaging in the same sort of bigotry the Bushes do, by projecting the actions of a determined few onto a pacifist multitude--just like muslims are now demonized for the actions of a few. Try to unpotty-train your corporate-media sculpted mind.
Courage begins with giving my name. Strategy begins with discussing actions. To me this is a one sided conversation, because I have heard nothing. Nothing in response to, “Why not Friday or Sunday,” yet I am personally attacked again, by a bunch of name callers. Oh no, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to question your identity, I mean tactics. Please, remember our world will be a better place when who we are is defined beyond our job, or how we oppose the government. What’s the big deal anyway about coming up with a response for why not Friday, or tomorrow for that matter? Furthermore, does anyone know anything about who I am, besides the government? I argue, no. This is an IMC chat line, why demonstrate rage, when we may look at our actions and figure out how to get 6,000 people involved on a “break” everything march.
It happened, no one was injured, get over it.
No to war. And No to smashing windows. It seems impossible to communicate with you. I hope something in your life helps you to feel sorrow, compassion.I hope you can be in tears over something so that you will only want to be in understanding . I am saddened by your form of protest.
Why not every day? Why not everywhere?
Sorry, I've outgrown shedding tears for a little broken glass, a few painted slogans, and a couple scuffed corporate propaganda newsracks. I shed them for the broken bodies of babies, those disfigured by DU, and the dead on both sides of a tyrant's war-for-oil.
If you're so upset, why don't you start a collection to pay for the INS windows, or go scrub the paint off Chevron's shiny towers? Lots of people were suckered into cleaning up Seattle after WTO. While you're at it, while don't you lick the boots of your corporate masters, and bow to the appointed insider traitor Bush.
If you're so upset, why don't you start a collection to pay for the INS windows, or go scrub the paint off Chevron's shiny towers? Lots of people were suckered into cleaning up Seattle after WTO. While you're at it, while don't you lick the boots of your corporate masters, and bow to the appointed insider traitor Bush.
breaking windows only makes others feel:scared, disappointed, angry.........
I did not know the "Black Pac" is unable to answer direct questions. It is not about people getting hurt. It is about compromising someone else's message, or in this case, potentially compromising someone's message. No matter what, none of us get to dictate what violence is for the rest of the world, but mainstream media does. Do you get the point? So one last time, why did the whomever choose Saturday rather than tomorrow? Realistically we all know why Saturday was chosen. My point is only, healthy introspection about those events, besides what happened is not half as bad as organizing a march with 500,000 people, to a venue with no sound system. Talk about a need for introspection, we all have to do it to continue our development.
Mr. Wizard of Oz, what makes you better than everyone else? I do not know you, but your writing presents you like that. I am suprised that people defining themselves as critical thinkers fail to acknowledge who organized this thing, consisting mostly of mainstream America. Once and for all this is a mainstream thing. Give them some space, they're just beginning to question CNN. All of us need time, even though our time is truely limited. Alienating the mainstream from the mainstream peace movement is silly. Remember who walked into who's demonstration.
Mr. Wizard of Oz, what makes you better than everyone else? I do not know you, but your writing presents you like that. I am suprised that people defining themselves as critical thinkers fail to acknowledge who organized this thing, consisting mostly of mainstream America. Once and for all this is a mainstream thing. Give them some space, they're just beginning to question CNN. All of us need time, even though our time is truely limited. Alienating the mainstream from the mainstream peace movement is silly. Remember who walked into who's demonstration.
"none of us get to dictate what violence is for the rest of the world, but mainstream media does. Do you get the point?"
Yes, indeed! Throw off your mental chains the corporate media gave you, and think for yourself. YOU are helping to perpetuate the agenda of the oppressed, not those who stood up to the oppressors.
Yes, indeed! Throw off your mental chains the corporate media gave you, and think for yourself. YOU are helping to perpetuate the agenda of the oppressed, not those who stood up to the oppressors.
Who ever the fuck you are nobody ever calls me dick. Furthermore it is not about the chains in my head; it is about grandma and grandpa, little joe and jill. They are the ones who will be turned away. I've been in riots, and if one makes it out without their skull broken, ther're worth going back for more. Yet you still haven't responded to me calling chicken shits, for tagging onto someone else's protest. Reality check, not many people are ready to go toe to toe with the cops. If they were, black whatever would organize their own shit. You stole, and where is the communism in that? Throw of the inability to think with depth, that the Amerikkkan school systems have infused into the essence of your being.
To all those who say that the breakaway march is alienating the mainstream, or to those who are "sad to see this type of destruction in the peace movement."
Are you going to come to the next ANSWER march?
If not, you are only alienating yourselves.
Are you going to stay home next time there's a protest, tell you friends to stay home, and then come on indymedia and say, "see guys, you alienated us. we're staying home today to stop this war."
There is no logic in this. This is what an ideology like pacifism or any other is capable of. It makes people stop thinking critically.
Actions should always be judged by their EFFECT(S). Not on some moral principle.
If you truly believe that non-violence is the best TACTIC, then you should be organizing for an effective non-violent movement. Show the people doing property destruction that it can work. Tell your friends to come out next time in LARGER numbers. If they actually ARE alienated by a little broken glass and graffiti, why not take the responsibility YOURSELF to make them feel more comfortable. or are you uncapable of acting for yourselves and organizing yourselves?
Is that why you're dependent on a front group for the Stalinist WWP (ANSWER) to pay for the buses to get you into town or on the streets?
as long as you are sheep, you will always be playing follow the leader, and eating the shitty grass that the big rams leave behind.
think for yourselves and act for yourselves
Are you going to come to the next ANSWER march?
If not, you are only alienating yourselves.
Are you going to stay home next time there's a protest, tell you friends to stay home, and then come on indymedia and say, "see guys, you alienated us. we're staying home today to stop this war."
There is no logic in this. This is what an ideology like pacifism or any other is capable of. It makes people stop thinking critically.
Actions should always be judged by their EFFECT(S). Not on some moral principle.
If you truly believe that non-violence is the best TACTIC, then you should be organizing for an effective non-violent movement. Show the people doing property destruction that it can work. Tell your friends to come out next time in LARGER numbers. If they actually ARE alienated by a little broken glass and graffiti, why not take the responsibility YOURSELF to make them feel more comfortable. or are you uncapable of acting for yourselves and organizing yourselves?
Is that why you're dependent on a front group for the Stalinist WWP (ANSWER) to pay for the buses to get you into town or on the streets?
as long as you are sheep, you will always be playing follow the leader, and eating the shitty grass that the big rams leave behind.
think for yourselves and act for yourselves
What is the effect of a broken window? How does that change anything? Like you said, "it's just a little broken glass." For me, both tactics work, my problem is when emotion takes over the brain. Passion is life, but emotional reactionaries do not change the world. I would like to see the big bad Black Pac organize a big gathering in any major city opposing the war, independent of other Stalinist front groups (which really compromise the mainstream peace movement), and take whatever form of committed action feels necessary to change Shrubish policies. By the way, that is a challenge and a dare. So, who's got the courage?
We all know that there will always be a break-away, breaking windows as a vehicle for pent up expression. Certainly there are healthier ways to do that and most definitely it is exactly what the media puppets need to spin their coverage. Ironic how they use your own emotional suffering to diminish the voice of the people? Not really. That is chapter one page one.
Even calling yourself something or parading your flag (black bloc) is a perfect way to be divided and conquered. After all, the phrase immediately brings to mind hooded hoodlums with an arsenal of homemade weapons. Think again, if you think that means meeting force with force. Real strategy is knowing when to act in accordance with reality and not from a limited perspective.
Just remember that we don't want to be divided and conquered. In reality, a few windows is no big deal from a logical standpoint. And hey, it's completely transparent against the backdrop of the real evil perpetrated by the establishment, but it is counter productive. It is simply the same "us vs. them" mentality that keeps the cycle going, cause you hardly know who "they" are. Do think a broken window will change their minds? You've got some big wake up calls coming down the pike.
Certainly the establishment will continue to plant bad seeds into such groupings to further escalate the tension. They will put them right here on the message board. But you know what? It won't be enough this time. The old tactics aren't nearly as effective and the majority is waking up fast. The hypocrisy is front and center on many levels and the majority of those in the protest aren't going to be changing their minds about changing that reality. Yes Grandma doesn't want to be associated with stone throwers and gassed in the street, and heck maybe she won't attend next time. Others will.
The reality is that "running free" for a second is as pathetic as being locked in a cage, if that's what you call freedom. It is much more difficult to live up your freedom in every moment of your life, as opposed to running with the buffalo because it is safer to do so. Simply put, you individually choose freedom. You don't wait for the externals to give it to you.
Expect to get to be blacked out by the black bloc. Expect the worst that can be given the peace movement. Expect it to grow exponentially as the voice of the people rises. And do everything you can to keep your head and keep organized.
Expect much worse than some cointelpro tactics. Remember in worse times the credibility of our establishment. Never believe them. Never trade liberty for security. But please let's all keep a sense of humor. Stay human, ya'll.
-peace
Even calling yourself something or parading your flag (black bloc) is a perfect way to be divided and conquered. After all, the phrase immediately brings to mind hooded hoodlums with an arsenal of homemade weapons. Think again, if you think that means meeting force with force. Real strategy is knowing when to act in accordance with reality and not from a limited perspective.
Just remember that we don't want to be divided and conquered. In reality, a few windows is no big deal from a logical standpoint. And hey, it's completely transparent against the backdrop of the real evil perpetrated by the establishment, but it is counter productive. It is simply the same "us vs. them" mentality that keeps the cycle going, cause you hardly know who "they" are. Do think a broken window will change their minds? You've got some big wake up calls coming down the pike.
Certainly the establishment will continue to plant bad seeds into such groupings to further escalate the tension. They will put them right here on the message board. But you know what? It won't be enough this time. The old tactics aren't nearly as effective and the majority is waking up fast. The hypocrisy is front and center on many levels and the majority of those in the protest aren't going to be changing their minds about changing that reality. Yes Grandma doesn't want to be associated with stone throwers and gassed in the street, and heck maybe she won't attend next time. Others will.
The reality is that "running free" for a second is as pathetic as being locked in a cage, if that's what you call freedom. It is much more difficult to live up your freedom in every moment of your life, as opposed to running with the buffalo because it is safer to do so. Simply put, you individually choose freedom. You don't wait for the externals to give it to you.
Expect to get to be blacked out by the black bloc. Expect the worst that can be given the peace movement. Expect it to grow exponentially as the voice of the people rises. And do everything you can to keep your head and keep organized.
Expect much worse than some cointelpro tactics. Remember in worse times the credibility of our establishment. Never believe them. Never trade liberty for security. But please let's all keep a sense of humor. Stay human, ya'll.
-peace
if no one had broken any windows, none of this discussion would be happening now.
what are the multitude of all of these concurrent conversations happening right now?
no one can really say. but i'm sure there are many. and i think that the benefits of this discussion will be great. people from all different parts of this movement are getting to see many different viewpoints and ideas regarding politics, tactics, theory and practice.
this is where education happens, not in the state-sponsored school system or on cnn or fox news.
you know those people that will do anything to avoid getting into an arguement? they stay all bottled up, they become boring people, anti-social and irrelevant.
a little thinking never hurt anyone.
a little disagreement, a liitle conflict here and there will make us much more effective in the long run.
and its great that we have this forum to work these things out too!
indymedia rocks!!!
what are the multitude of all of these concurrent conversations happening right now?
no one can really say. but i'm sure there are many. and i think that the benefits of this discussion will be great. people from all different parts of this movement are getting to see many different viewpoints and ideas regarding politics, tactics, theory and practice.
this is where education happens, not in the state-sponsored school system or on cnn or fox news.
you know those people that will do anything to avoid getting into an arguement? they stay all bottled up, they become boring people, anti-social and irrelevant.
a little thinking never hurt anyone.
a little disagreement, a liitle conflict here and there will make us much more effective in the long run.
and its great that we have this forum to work these things out too!
indymedia rocks!!!
Without their "voluntary servitude" the leader would be impotent. As Gandhi points out:
Even the most despotic government cannot stand except for the consent of the governed which consent is often forcibly procured by the despot. Immediately the subject ceases to fear the despotic force, his power is gone (Gandhi, 1980, p.27)
In actual practice, the withdrawal of co-operation takes the form of civil disobedience, strikes, occupations, boycotts, and a general mass non-compliance with the wishes of the oppressor. [Gene Sharp (1973) has documented over 200 successful techniques of nonviolent resistance.] In the great Indian strike or hartel of 1930 against the Salt Laws, for example, virtually the entire subcontinent was shut down and British rule paralyzed (Bondurant, 1958).
Even the most despotic government cannot stand except for the consent of the governed which consent is often forcibly procured by the despot. Immediately the subject ceases to fear the despotic force, his power is gone (Gandhi, 1980, p.27)
In actual practice, the withdrawal of co-operation takes the form of civil disobedience, strikes, occupations, boycotts, and a general mass non-compliance with the wishes of the oppressor. [Gene Sharp (1973) has documented over 200 successful techniques of nonviolent resistance.] In the great Indian strike or hartel of 1930 against the Salt Laws, for example, virtually the entire subcontinent was shut down and British rule paralyzed (Bondurant, 1958).
I've watched it on TV and I've read the arguments, but they all still look like petty criminals to me. Destroying paper machines and breaking plate glass?
I think the tactics belie the motives. It's just not possible to take these people seriously. I say jail them all until they grow too old to throw things.
I think the tactics belie the motives. It's just not possible to take these people seriously. I say jail them all until they grow too old to throw things.
The Black Bloc of 1775 - A History Lesson
==============================================================================
"They tell me that we are weak, but shall we gather strength by irresolution? We are not weak. ....The battle is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. . . .
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775
==========================================
From "Toward An American Revolution" by Jerry Fresia, South End Press
English merchant capitalists who arrived in America found that whatever wealth was to be had would come from the hard labor of mining, cutting down forests, planting and harvesting crops, and constructing buildings, roads, and bridges. Investors, therefore, arranged to bring "new hands" to the "new world" to exploit its resources. A vast propaganda campaign was launched to lure the poor of Europe to America. Roughly half the immigrants to colonial America were indentured servants. At the time of the War of Independence, three out of four persons in Pennsylvania, Maryland, and Virginia were or had been indentured servants. Of the 250,000 indentured servants that had arrived by 1770, more than a 100,000 had been either kidnapped or released from their prison sentences. And by this time, roughly 20 percent of the colonial population was in slavery. Jefferson was clear about this when he said that "our ancestors who migrated here were laborers not lawyers."
In the hundred years or so prior to the War of Independence, the rich had gotten richer, and the poor, poorer. For example, in 1687 in Boston, the top 1 percent owned about 25 percent of the wealth. By 1770, the top 1 percent owned 44 percent of the wealth. During this same period, the percentage of adult males who were poor, "perhaps rented a room, or slept in the back of a tavern, owned no property, doubled from 14 percent of the adult males to 29 percent." It was during this time that the rich introduced property qualifications for voting in order to disenfranchise the poor and protect their privileges. In Pennsylvania in 1750, for example, white males had to have fifty pounds of "lawful money" or own fifty acres of land. This meant that only 8 percent of the rural population and 2 percent of the population of Philadelphia could vote. Similar situations existed in the other states. It is important to note the way in which voting qualification requirements can be used to curb political expression. Keep in mind also that voting has never been guaranteed in this country, or made a right ...
Common people were not taking this abuse sitting down. During the last quarter of the seventeenth century, militant confrontations brought down the established governments of Massachusetts, New York, Maryland, Virginia, and North Carolina. In Virginia, in a dispute over land distribution and Indian policy, white frontiersmen, together with slaves and servants forced the governor to flee the burning capital of Jamestown. England was forced to quickly dispatch 1,000 soldiers to Virginia to put down the armed insurrection. By 1760, there had been eighteen rebellions aimed at overthrowing colonial governments, six black rebellions, and forty major riots protesting a variety of unfair conditions. In addition, women were beginning to speak and write about their inequality and would soon begin fighting the "irresponsibility of men" in family matters, and the denigration of the status of women in the public world.
To be sure, common people were involved in and supported the unfolding struggle for independence from Great Britain, even though Britain's colonial policies would, for them, only end in more severe or permanent forms of subordination. But as Philip Foner points out, for common people, independence meant freedom from the oppression of colonial aristocracy as well as freedom from British rule. Stated one slogan, common people must be free from all "Foreign or Domestic Oligarchy." In other words, common people were thinking in terms well beyond "independence." They were thinking in terms of liberation.
We see then, that in the context of the struggle for independence, the specific aspirations of common people put them into conflict with the people we think of as the "Founding Fathers" or Framers. The Sons of Liberty, the Loyal Nine, and the Boston Committee of Correspondence and other such groups which the Framers organized were rooted in the "middling interests and well-to-do merchants" and upper classes. They have been wrongly described as involutionary. The truth is that they took great measures to keep the peace and defuse revolutionary tendencies.
As mass resistance to British polices mounted, for example, they urged, "No Mobs or Tumults, let the Persons and Properties of your most inveterate Enemies be safe."
Sam Adams agreed. James Otis added, "No possible circumstances, though ever so oppressive, could be supposed sufficient to justify private tumults and disorders... "
The Boston Committee of Correspondence actually did its best to contain and control the militancy of activists involved in the Boston Tea Party.
Virtually ignored by most historians is the fact that much of the resistance directed toward Great Britain by common people was an extension of the resistance they felt toward what Dirk Hoerder has described as "high-handed officials and men of wealth whose arrogant conduct and use of economic power was resented."
Rioters often damaged coaches and other luxury items of the rich. The homes of the wealthy were sometimes broken into and destroyed.
The governor of Massachusetts said in 1765, " The Mob had set down no less than fifteen Houses...the houses of some of the most respectable persons in the Government. It was now become a War of Plunder, of general leveling and taking away the Distinction of Rich and poor."
In the countryside, there was similar class antagonism. In New Jersey and New York, tenant riots led to the carving of Vermont out of New York State. And in North Carolina in 1771 there was the Regulator movement, an armed insurrection which according to Marvin L. Michael Kay was led by "class conscious white farmers...who attempted to democratize local government."
What was the general response to this revolutionary moment by the Framers? The response of Governor Morris, a key co-author of the Constitution, was not atypical: "The mob begins to think and to reason. . .I see and I see with fear and trembling, that if the disputes with Britain continue, we shall be under the domination of a riotous mob. It is to the interest of all men therefore, to seek reunion with the parent state."
============================================================
In 1775, the Boston Mobocracy invaded Governor Hutchinson's mansion. They broke the furniture into kindling wood, and threw it out the windows, breaking them in the process. They ripped down the draperies, and tracked horse manure across the rugs and fancy parquet floors. This is the same Mobocracy which threw a half-million dollar cargo of tea into Boston Harbor. The result of these actions was the blockade of Boston Harbor by the Crown, and the march to Lexington and Concord to seize the colonists' guns...
In comparison, the actions of the Black Blocs of the current day are tame...
==============================================================================
"They tell me that we are weak, but shall we gather strength by irresolution? We are not weak. ....The battle is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. . . .
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775
==========================================
From "Toward An American Revolution" by Jerry Fresia, South End Press
English merchant capitalists who arrived in America found that whatever wealth was to be had would come from the hard labor of mining, cutting down forests, planting and harvesting crops, and constructing buildings, roads, and bridges. Investors, therefore, arranged to bring "new hands" to the "new world" to exploit its resources. A vast propaganda campaign was launched to lure the poor of Europe to America. Roughly half the immigrants to colonial America were indentured servants. At the time of the War of Independence, three out of four persons in Pennsylvania, Maryland, and Virginia were or had been indentured servants. Of the 250,000 indentured servants that had arrived by 1770, more than a 100,000 had been either kidnapped or released from their prison sentences. And by this time, roughly 20 percent of the colonial population was in slavery. Jefferson was clear about this when he said that "our ancestors who migrated here were laborers not lawyers."
In the hundred years or so prior to the War of Independence, the rich had gotten richer, and the poor, poorer. For example, in 1687 in Boston, the top 1 percent owned about 25 percent of the wealth. By 1770, the top 1 percent owned 44 percent of the wealth. During this same period, the percentage of adult males who were poor, "perhaps rented a room, or slept in the back of a tavern, owned no property, doubled from 14 percent of the adult males to 29 percent." It was during this time that the rich introduced property qualifications for voting in order to disenfranchise the poor and protect their privileges. In Pennsylvania in 1750, for example, white males had to have fifty pounds of "lawful money" or own fifty acres of land. This meant that only 8 percent of the rural population and 2 percent of the population of Philadelphia could vote. Similar situations existed in the other states. It is important to note the way in which voting qualification requirements can be used to curb political expression. Keep in mind also that voting has never been guaranteed in this country, or made a right ...
Common people were not taking this abuse sitting down. During the last quarter of the seventeenth century, militant confrontations brought down the established governments of Massachusetts, New York, Maryland, Virginia, and North Carolina. In Virginia, in a dispute over land distribution and Indian policy, white frontiersmen, together with slaves and servants forced the governor to flee the burning capital of Jamestown. England was forced to quickly dispatch 1,000 soldiers to Virginia to put down the armed insurrection. By 1760, there had been eighteen rebellions aimed at overthrowing colonial governments, six black rebellions, and forty major riots protesting a variety of unfair conditions. In addition, women were beginning to speak and write about their inequality and would soon begin fighting the "irresponsibility of men" in family matters, and the denigration of the status of women in the public world.
To be sure, common people were involved in and supported the unfolding struggle for independence from Great Britain, even though Britain's colonial policies would, for them, only end in more severe or permanent forms of subordination. But as Philip Foner points out, for common people, independence meant freedom from the oppression of colonial aristocracy as well as freedom from British rule. Stated one slogan, common people must be free from all "Foreign or Domestic Oligarchy." In other words, common people were thinking in terms well beyond "independence." They were thinking in terms of liberation.
We see then, that in the context of the struggle for independence, the specific aspirations of common people put them into conflict with the people we think of as the "Founding Fathers" or Framers. The Sons of Liberty, the Loyal Nine, and the Boston Committee of Correspondence and other such groups which the Framers organized were rooted in the "middling interests and well-to-do merchants" and upper classes. They have been wrongly described as involutionary. The truth is that they took great measures to keep the peace and defuse revolutionary tendencies.
As mass resistance to British polices mounted, for example, they urged, "No Mobs or Tumults, let the Persons and Properties of your most inveterate Enemies be safe."
Sam Adams agreed. James Otis added, "No possible circumstances, though ever so oppressive, could be supposed sufficient to justify private tumults and disorders... "
The Boston Committee of Correspondence actually did its best to contain and control the militancy of activists involved in the Boston Tea Party.
Virtually ignored by most historians is the fact that much of the resistance directed toward Great Britain by common people was an extension of the resistance they felt toward what Dirk Hoerder has described as "high-handed officials and men of wealth whose arrogant conduct and use of economic power was resented."
Rioters often damaged coaches and other luxury items of the rich. The homes of the wealthy were sometimes broken into and destroyed.
The governor of Massachusetts said in 1765, " The Mob had set down no less than fifteen Houses...the houses of some of the most respectable persons in the Government. It was now become a War of Plunder, of general leveling and taking away the Distinction of Rich and poor."
In the countryside, there was similar class antagonism. In New Jersey and New York, tenant riots led to the carving of Vermont out of New York State. And in North Carolina in 1771 there was the Regulator movement, an armed insurrection which according to Marvin L. Michael Kay was led by "class conscious white farmers...who attempted to democratize local government."
What was the general response to this revolutionary moment by the Framers? The response of Governor Morris, a key co-author of the Constitution, was not atypical: "The mob begins to think and to reason. . .I see and I see with fear and trembling, that if the disputes with Britain continue, we shall be under the domination of a riotous mob. It is to the interest of all men therefore, to seek reunion with the parent state."
============================================================
In 1775, the Boston Mobocracy invaded Governor Hutchinson's mansion. They broke the furniture into kindling wood, and threw it out the windows, breaking them in the process. They ripped down the draperies, and tracked horse manure across the rugs and fancy parquet floors. This is the same Mobocracy which threw a half-million dollar cargo of tea into Boston Harbor. The result of these actions was the blockade of Boston Harbor by the Crown, and the march to Lexington and Concord to seize the colonists' guns...
In comparison, the actions of the Black Blocs of the current day are tame...
Look, what I am trying to say is this: if you break things, what have you truly accomplished? Is breaking stuff going to shift paradigm? Is it? To you people who believe that violence is necessary for social change, I ask this: Do you think that you can build a just society through the use of violence? In other words, is violence from your hands any different than that exerted by the state? I assert that it is not. Any "revolutionary" movement that is based in violence will not -- cannot -- result in a just society. There is no justification for violence. Its wrongness is absolute.
Revolution must be achieved through just means. Brothers and Sisters, the means are the ends.
Revolution must be achieved through just means. Brothers and Sisters, the means are the ends.
It's not that I have a problem with those who decided to take the law in their own hands and deal out judgement it's that I think it was ineffective. Yes and so was the march and rally I attended. This is not to say it wasn't important because it was. However it was ineffective because it didn't matter to those who it makes the most difference. The president, the CEO's, those in power, etc. In addition who do you think you're hurting when you smash a few windows, spray paint some signs. Who cleans up your mess? Certainly not the CEO's. You think the CEO of Citigroup or the Chronicle or Starbucks is rethinking some things because he got a smashed window. That is a drop in the bucket for him. You might argue that you are giving people jobs by creating this havoc and destruction. However your average street cleaner and city worker has to work just as hard and maybe even harder to clean up the mess that you left and I'm sure that they are not too thrilled about cleaning up graffiti, garbage, etc. Another point was all the garbage I saw left around the Civic Center. It baffles me that such environmentally and socially concious people could be so fucking lazy as to litter and throw leaflets, water bottles, etc on the ground. True the garbage cans were overflowing but come on people, work that extra step to find a garbage can that isn't overflowing.
Regardless of everything I still want to commend all those that participated in the event. i also think what the breakaway marchers did was brave yet maybe stupid. Watch "The Last Supper" if you get a chance it shows how sometimes even when you think you may be doing the right thing you are actually doing the exact opposite and you become what you were fighting against in the first place.
The movie basically ask the question if you could kill Hitler before he killed millions of people would you? It's kind of like Minority Report as well. These 5 rich liberal college kids decide that they are gonna kill all those that hate others, ultra conservatives, and racists. True, this comparsion is a little bit far fetched but I do believe there is a point behind it. Think about something before you do it, don't always think that what you're doing is good because you think it is, don't believe that you are above anyone and that somehow your beliefs and morals are superior. Judge not less thee be judged.
Coming back to what happened. Try this next time you want to make a statement. Look up Abbie Hoffman. There are ways to get attention, if that is what you desire (but hopefully that's not it, hopefully it's the cause which you fight for), there are ways, stunts, publicty stunts that can make a statement without causing harm or damage. You can make people laugh and open their eyes to what's going on. True it is harder to do and it takes a little more intelligence, thought and patience to pull it off but I think that it can be a lot more postive for all those involved.
Thank you.
Regardless of everything I still want to commend all those that participated in the event. i also think what the breakaway marchers did was brave yet maybe stupid. Watch "The Last Supper" if you get a chance it shows how sometimes even when you think you may be doing the right thing you are actually doing the exact opposite and you become what you were fighting against in the first place.
The movie basically ask the question if you could kill Hitler before he killed millions of people would you? It's kind of like Minority Report as well. These 5 rich liberal college kids decide that they are gonna kill all those that hate others, ultra conservatives, and racists. True, this comparsion is a little bit far fetched but I do believe there is a point behind it. Think about something before you do it, don't always think that what you're doing is good because you think it is, don't believe that you are above anyone and that somehow your beliefs and morals are superior. Judge not less thee be judged.
Coming back to what happened. Try this next time you want to make a statement. Look up Abbie Hoffman. There are ways to get attention, if that is what you desire (but hopefully that's not it, hopefully it's the cause which you fight for), there are ways, stunts, publicty stunts that can make a statement without causing harm or damage. You can make people laugh and open their eyes to what's going on. True it is harder to do and it takes a little more intelligence, thought and patience to pull it off but I think that it can be a lot more postive for all those involved.
Thank you.
Look Richard. The reason people aren't answering your question as to why the march wasn't friday, is because your question has the underlying assumption that it was bad the way it happened, and would have been better another day. I say that the reason it wasn't friday was because they could get more people to come to the demo, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. The only people who were endangered were those who _chose_ to come on the breakaway march. A fucking sellout group like ANSWER that has fuckloads of resources naturally gets to make the timetable for anti-war protests. Fucking CNN had a link to the answer page on the 17th.
Anyway, it was saturday. People loved it. The only people who were alienated were rich bastards and pacifists so what's the problem :)
comradely greetings,
Anyway, it was saturday. People loved it. The only people who were alienated were rich bastards and pacifists so what's the problem :)
comradely greetings,
splashed up against the San Francisco Chronicle sign would make a huge splash, and the words "No Blood for Oil" painted below could make a lasting impression... Is this violence?
The fact is that even if the demo is huge, unless it happens in a business district on normal work day, it can get easily ignored. And the media do ignore them, or at least do what they can to minimize their impact.Direct Action creates an impact that can't be ignored or censored...
The fact is that even if the demo is huge, unless it happens in a business district on normal work day, it can get easily ignored. And the media do ignore them, or at least do what they can to minimize their impact.Direct Action creates an impact that can't be ignored or censored...
Honestly, when I heard about this rampage on Saturday night from a friend who happened to see it as she was walking back to BART from the ANSWER rally, I really was sad. I mean, the emotion of sadness actually swept over me for a few hours.
I thought to myself, "here we go, the day would have been almost perfect, but maybe its the end of the peace movement already." I mean, I was out there with many of my friends that day - we came as a group of almost 30 - and we were all out there because we are opposed to violence in all its forms, and we see war as being the utmost form of violence.
But I have to admit. I've been struggling the past few days, reading post after post on indymedia, and though I still feel I could NEVER do anything like this myself, I have to say, the arguments for these actions are well reasoned, intelligent, and simply must be considered.
I just thought the anarchists that have had so much attention since Seattle were a bunch of punks, with too much teenage angst out for a good time.
One of the tenants of my philosophy is that people should always struggle not to dehumanize others. I think it is what allows violence to be possible. But I was talking to a buddy at work yesterday about what happened, and he said, "hey graham, have you ever TRIED to look at it from the other side? I mean, don't you think you're dehumanizing THEM by not even trying to listen to their viewpoint? you're always talking about that right?"
This really got me thinking. My buddy's not even the political type at all. Usually I can tell that he just gets sick of listening to me every day when i come into work saying, "you won't believe what they're doing now!" (I just can't help myself sometimes) But he's right. He may have helped me make one of the biggest changes in my politics in my life.
I guess sometimes its good just to step back and reevaulate things. Sometimes its so easy to get swept up in your own thinking - especially when you're in the minority - that you don't have a chance to do this. Its just really hard. You get used to defending yourself against rightwingers all the time and that turns into getting used to defending yourself endlessly against anyone you're arguing with.
So after Wayne finished putting me in check, a few hours later, a few muslim guys came to the counter to order a couple of coffee. I took their order, and when I was filling up their cups I overheard a piece of their conversation. One of them was saying to the other "You wouldn't believe it!!! I swear, I was walking by there last night and the whole front of the building was trashed!! The windows were broken, there was spray paint on the walls, i can't remember exactly what it said...have you heard anything about this? Someone must've done it during that big march yesterday. Yusuf is gonna love it when he hears about this!"
anyway, that just topped it off. I mean, these guys were really excited about this. Hell, I went to a few of those protests down there the other week, but I never really thought of what it must be like to feel like you're at risk of being detained.
I don't think these actions alone will have any real affect of the INS process or on government policy, but I just can't write them off anymore.
I guess different people just have different ways of doing things. If we can stick together on this we'll be stronger.
PEACE :-)
I thought to myself, "here we go, the day would have been almost perfect, but maybe its the end of the peace movement already." I mean, I was out there with many of my friends that day - we came as a group of almost 30 - and we were all out there because we are opposed to violence in all its forms, and we see war as being the utmost form of violence.
But I have to admit. I've been struggling the past few days, reading post after post on indymedia, and though I still feel I could NEVER do anything like this myself, I have to say, the arguments for these actions are well reasoned, intelligent, and simply must be considered.
I just thought the anarchists that have had so much attention since Seattle were a bunch of punks, with too much teenage angst out for a good time.
One of the tenants of my philosophy is that people should always struggle not to dehumanize others. I think it is what allows violence to be possible. But I was talking to a buddy at work yesterday about what happened, and he said, "hey graham, have you ever TRIED to look at it from the other side? I mean, don't you think you're dehumanizing THEM by not even trying to listen to their viewpoint? you're always talking about that right?"
This really got me thinking. My buddy's not even the political type at all. Usually I can tell that he just gets sick of listening to me every day when i come into work saying, "you won't believe what they're doing now!" (I just can't help myself sometimes) But he's right. He may have helped me make one of the biggest changes in my politics in my life.
I guess sometimes its good just to step back and reevaulate things. Sometimes its so easy to get swept up in your own thinking - especially when you're in the minority - that you don't have a chance to do this. Its just really hard. You get used to defending yourself against rightwingers all the time and that turns into getting used to defending yourself endlessly against anyone you're arguing with.
So after Wayne finished putting me in check, a few hours later, a few muslim guys came to the counter to order a couple of coffee. I took their order, and when I was filling up their cups I overheard a piece of their conversation. One of them was saying to the other "You wouldn't believe it!!! I swear, I was walking by there last night and the whole front of the building was trashed!! The windows were broken, there was spray paint on the walls, i can't remember exactly what it said...have you heard anything about this? Someone must've done it during that big march yesterday. Yusuf is gonna love it when he hears about this!"
anyway, that just topped it off. I mean, these guys were really excited about this. Hell, I went to a few of those protests down there the other week, but I never really thought of what it must be like to feel like you're at risk of being detained.
I don't think these actions alone will have any real affect of the INS process or on government policy, but I just can't write them off anymore.
I guess different people just have different ways of doing things. If we can stick together on this we'll be stronger.
PEACE :-)
The alleged 'Breakaway' march seems a bit unusual, especially the reporting. Appears to be very fishy...
Thank you for your comments. All those of us who participate in more militant actions ask sometimes is to not be treated as kids who are going against the "parents" that "run" the anti-war movement. This property destruction is not random. It is thought out and there is a historical and analytical basis for what was done. Anyway, solidarity to my SanFran comrades in black. Hopefully the convergence in Pittsburgh will be as inspiring.
Saturday's "breakaway" march created art. It didn't destroy. A Starbucks replacing a family-operated coffee shop is destruction. The INS breaking up families and destroying lives out of racism and nationalism is violence. Citicorp ads for credit cards on the walls of classrooms and in every mailbox, these are causing the bankruptcy of millions.
Those who criticize the "black bloc" or the "pink bloc" for their artistic statements should rethink their perspective.
A Target and an Old Navy filling up the wetlands and hills by the Bay, these are examples of unnecessary destruction. American bombs are destruction, capital's monoculture is violence. Broken windows at the INS and spray-painted slogan on the walls of the Hearst Media Empire are art.
I wish I had brought my paintbrushes on Saturday.
Sous les paves, la plage.
Those who criticize the "black bloc" or the "pink bloc" for their artistic statements should rethink their perspective.
A Target and an Old Navy filling up the wetlands and hills by the Bay, these are examples of unnecessary destruction. American bombs are destruction, capital's monoculture is violence. Broken windows at the INS and spray-painted slogan on the walls of the Hearst Media Empire are art.
I wish I had brought my paintbrushes on Saturday.
Sous les paves, la plage.
interesting debate here guys.
personally, as someone who witnessed the events on saturday, i must say that the "breakaway march" may have been a good idea, but it lacked leadership, organization, and a point.
i mean, was it any different from what happened in Oakland on sunday night?
from what i saw, SFPD did their best to provide traffic control for the "breakaway march", and nothing happened until after these people began trashing Market street (which i don't disagree with), basically begging to get arrested.
if ya wanna be revolutionary, walk the streets at night, every night, with the graffiti writers and join the REAL revolution. you think vandalizing during the day within the safe confines of a mob makes you hardcore?
actually, it makes you a poser.
vandalism is okay with me, but why is it MORE revolutionary if there are cameras and cops around?
plan your own actions, and don't piggyback off of a well-organized, peaceful march that a lot of people put a lot of effort into.
and if ya wanna claim the revolution, LIVE it everyday and every night, not just on some preapproved date and time when there will be a lot cameras around......take over the Chronicle instead of just tagging on it......overturn the state, not just newsstands....
personally, as someone who witnessed the events on saturday, i must say that the "breakaway march" may have been a good idea, but it lacked leadership, organization, and a point.
i mean, was it any different from what happened in Oakland on sunday night?
from what i saw, SFPD did their best to provide traffic control for the "breakaway march", and nothing happened until after these people began trashing Market street (which i don't disagree with), basically begging to get arrested.
if ya wanna be revolutionary, walk the streets at night, every night, with the graffiti writers and join the REAL revolution. you think vandalizing during the day within the safe confines of a mob makes you hardcore?
actually, it makes you a poser.
vandalism is okay with me, but why is it MORE revolutionary if there are cameras and cops around?
plan your own actions, and don't piggyback off of a well-organized, peaceful march that a lot of people put a lot of effort into.
and if ya wanna claim the revolution, LIVE it everyday and every night, not just on some preapproved date and time when there will be a lot cameras around......take over the Chronicle instead of just tagging on it......overturn the state, not just newsstands....
I am sick of these people complaining about the break away march when they obviously weren't there or have even read about what happened. The break away did not wage random vandalism on market street, infact I don't think ANY vandalism was done on Market, it was all done at the citibank, SF chronicle, and the INS building. You make some good points but you also make yourself look ignorant.
I have read every one of these posts, and I feel a bit confused about why there is so much anger and aggression directed towards eachother. Let's not forget that there may be billions of different *realities* on this planet. Since each human being has a unique set of experiences, many have unique views of the world. For this, I say, "Thank Goodness!". How disgusting and drab if we were all intellectual clones. SO...then why all the hateful name calling over an issue that could be argued from either side?
Yeah, I like vigorous discussion, and I think it helps those engaged work out their personal philosophies. But what seems counter-productive to me is breaking people down with viscious name-calling. We can discuss this issue without the "fuck-you"'s. Let's inspire eachother with our uniqueness of thoughts and protest tactics. Even if you can't agree, isn't there something you can still learn?
To Richard, re: date of breakaway march.
I wasn't even in SF on Saturday, but I have an idea about why the breakaway march happened then and not another day. I think it was a pretty good tactic, actually. If they would have done it on another day, they would have had every single cop in SF following them. Since they did it on a day when there were hundreds of thousands of people in the streets, they didn't have to feel the heat of every single cop in the city. To you, that's hiding, being cowardly, and usurping ANSWER's message. To me, that's making the most of the situation at hand (the energy-level, the numbers of people, the diversion from the cops) and diversifying the message. I guess maybe the breakaway march took for granted that there would be solidarity between ALL anti-war folx. I'm sure the last thing they wanted to do was created intense hatred and division among the movement.
Yeah, I like vigorous discussion, and I think it helps those engaged work out their personal philosophies. But what seems counter-productive to me is breaking people down with viscious name-calling. We can discuss this issue without the "fuck-you"'s. Let's inspire eachother with our uniqueness of thoughts and protest tactics. Even if you can't agree, isn't there something you can still learn?
To Richard, re: date of breakaway march.
I wasn't even in SF on Saturday, but I have an idea about why the breakaway march happened then and not another day. I think it was a pretty good tactic, actually. If they would have done it on another day, they would have had every single cop in SF following them. Since they did it on a day when there were hundreds of thousands of people in the streets, they didn't have to feel the heat of every single cop in the city. To you, that's hiding, being cowardly, and usurping ANSWER's message. To me, that's making the most of the situation at hand (the energy-level, the numbers of people, the diversion from the cops) and diversifying the message. I guess maybe the breakaway march took for granted that there would be solidarity between ALL anti-war folx. I'm sure the last thing they wanted to do was created intense hatred and division among the movement.
The Citibank Center building was on Sansome St off of Market, the Starbucks was on a street leading up to Market which passed the Embarcadero center (Davis?), which we came to after marching past the INS building. Nothing was vandalized on Market street to my knowledge.
Maybe this is exactly what the "breakaway" march meant to do.
Read what Justin Raimondo posted above.
I don't know anything about his group, but his comments were pretty much right on.
Read what Justin Raimondo posted above.
I don't know anything about his group, but his comments were pretty much right on.
Raimondo is editor of antiwar.com, a conservative antiwar site. It's sort of a lonely position - he spends most of his time criticizing republicans and warmonger conservatives, along with criticizing liberals, Peggy Noonan for being a woman, communists, I guess anarchists, and fallen libertarians such as the Cato thinktank that support war. Pat Buchanan has similar positions and wrote a forward to his book. People like David HOrowitz attack him and pick on him for being gay. At least he has a relative diversity of articles and sources of news on his site. He has a book coming out on the Mossad agents who pretended to be Israeli art students who were almost definitely investigating and following the Saudi flight school students who later crashed into the WTC, but the US just sent them back but didn't report what they were up to.
I'm all for protesting when you believe in something strong enough - but smashing up businesses? Beating policement? This is about as helpful as pouring gasoline on a fire. Think before you act, people - no matter who they are, everyone deserves to be treated fairly. If they're rich or a cop, that doesn't make them a bad person - it just makes them different than you. Only a bloddy idiot can't see that, and it seems there was 1000+ in San Francisco on this day.
For more information:
http://www.digital-soapbox.com
I have a question for San Franers,why are so many of you anti-capitlast?Are the protesters oppresed workers living in poverty?
And why are so many anti-U.S.?Are their secret police arresting lefties and tourturing them for their ideas?
What is the U.S. and capitalism doing to the bay that is so diobolic?
And why are so many anti-U.S.?Are their secret police arresting lefties and tourturing them for their ideas?
What is the U.S. and capitalism doing to the bay that is so diobolic?
It's kind of sad to read the same dumb comments from critics of the black bloc who have made no effort to understand why people engage in the black bloc. People are so quick to judge, engage in profiling, suggest that anarchists are dividers, and other nonsense.
Well, I'd like to ask the critics of the black bloc why you aren't outspoken when the Plowshares destroy military equipment, or when people in the Global South attack corporations? Please, can we have some consistency around here for once?
And then there is this nonsense about property destruction being random or the black being a punch of kids who need to exercise their gripes. Come on! Do people ever say crap like this about people who are marching down the street in some peace protest?
Where is your solidarity?
To those of you who did this black bloc, I say, keep up the good work. Really wish I could have been in your bloc instead of going to this cold, lame ANSWER rally in DC. Just keep in mind that most of the critics posting here are talking nonsense. You all did the right thing, especially targeting the fucking INS.
It's time to start organizing more actions like this, all over the place. Bush is determined to have his war and sign-waving is not going to be enough.
Well, I'd like to ask the critics of the black bloc why you aren't outspoken when the Plowshares destroy military equipment, or when people in the Global South attack corporations? Please, can we have some consistency around here for once?
And then there is this nonsense about property destruction being random or the black being a punch of kids who need to exercise their gripes. Come on! Do people ever say crap like this about people who are marching down the street in some peace protest?
Where is your solidarity?
To those of you who did this black bloc, I say, keep up the good work. Really wish I could have been in your bloc instead of going to this cold, lame ANSWER rally in DC. Just keep in mind that most of the critics posting here are talking nonsense. You all did the right thing, especially targeting the fucking INS.
It's time to start organizing more actions like this, all over the place. Bush is determined to have his war and sign-waving is not going to be enough.
Let me try to answer you as to why so many of us dislike Capitalism.
I am in the working class and have always been working class.I am proud of this fact.I currently do semi-skilled labor and actually make OK money yet I could NEVER buy a house in this area and my retirement will barely make ends meet.We are under constant pressure from ignorant racist bosses who are on authoritarian power trips.We are harassed when we legitimately call in sick and are treated like children with no ability to think.There is NO democracy in the workplace.All decisions are from the top down.Our input is NEVER taken into consideration.
There is also the insidious way capitalism poisons human relationships.We are judged by how many toys we have,not by our character and integrity.Men are seen by women as cash registers and women are objectified by men who see them as playthings and orifices for hedonistic indulgement.Where I work at most couples are on this absurd merry go round,ruining their health and family unity just to front off a bourgois image that proves to the world that they are "somebody".This is particularly true with people of color who are denigrated by the dominant culture and feel like they always have to prove they can uphold the same middle class fantasies as them.
Is Socialism the answer?Not as long as people bring capitalist mentalities to the table.I think the Cuban people are way better off under Castro than they were under Bautista but I don't think I would like the regimentation rampant in Cuba today.I hate hierarchies and bosses whether they represent capitalists or communists.Personally,I have always liked collective work.Whether I could shed a lifetime of capitalist conditioning to make this collective idea a way of life I am not so sure!
I am in the working class and have always been working class.I am proud of this fact.I currently do semi-skilled labor and actually make OK money yet I could NEVER buy a house in this area and my retirement will barely make ends meet.We are under constant pressure from ignorant racist bosses who are on authoritarian power trips.We are harassed when we legitimately call in sick and are treated like children with no ability to think.There is NO democracy in the workplace.All decisions are from the top down.Our input is NEVER taken into consideration.
There is also the insidious way capitalism poisons human relationships.We are judged by how many toys we have,not by our character and integrity.Men are seen by women as cash registers and women are objectified by men who see them as playthings and orifices for hedonistic indulgement.Where I work at most couples are on this absurd merry go round,ruining their health and family unity just to front off a bourgois image that proves to the world that they are "somebody".This is particularly true with people of color who are denigrated by the dominant culture and feel like they always have to prove they can uphold the same middle class fantasies as them.
Is Socialism the answer?Not as long as people bring capitalist mentalities to the table.I think the Cuban people are way better off under Castro than they were under Bautista but I don't think I would like the regimentation rampant in Cuba today.I hate hierarchies and bosses whether they represent capitalists or communists.Personally,I have always liked collective work.Whether I could shed a lifetime of capitalist conditioning to make this collective idea a way of life I am not so sure!
Think you'll like it better in Cuba? Well, tens of millions of people emigrate from one country to another each year!!! Why not head to Cuba and live there. I bet there are plenty of extra homes available for you, what with all those people floating to Florida on rafts and inner tubes. Send my love to Fidel.
Oh, and when you get to Cuba, make sure you tell us how you're doing by posting on Havana Indymedia! Oh, I forgot - there is no Indymedia in Cuba - or Indy-anything for that matter. And using the Internet is against the law. Well, at least John Ashcroft won't be bothering you anymore.
"one thing that has not been mentioned so far that I thought was great was someone running down the sidewalk with a u-lock smashing parking meters! How great is that? who doesn't hate parking meters? "
Um, wellll, parking meters frequently block sidewalks and are a pesky nuisance to drivers (who so rarely have to be bothered with even this fraction of the subsidy to keep them so car-constrained), so maybe the bicycle u-lock person was trying to somehow build solidarity? Or protest the fact that so little public money goes to improving the lot of those who do not drive (quite the opposite)?
But they do at least provide a place to park one's bicycle, which is one of the most promising forms of protest against wars for oil. And they're about to go away it seems...
From the SFBC email list today:
P.S.: As long as I'm proposing letters to the editor, might
somebody wish to write in to mention the fact that we're all
expected to either lose our wheels or buy new U-locks? See
details here:
http://www.sfgov.org/dpt/meters.htm
Would this or any other city, "transit-first" or otherwise, ever
require motorists to throw part of their cars' security systems
away and make additional $80 purchases just to park?
Um, wellll, parking meters frequently block sidewalks and are a pesky nuisance to drivers (who so rarely have to be bothered with even this fraction of the subsidy to keep them so car-constrained), so maybe the bicycle u-lock person was trying to somehow build solidarity? Or protest the fact that so little public money goes to improving the lot of those who do not drive (quite the opposite)?
But they do at least provide a place to park one's bicycle, which is one of the most promising forms of protest against wars for oil. And they're about to go away it seems...
From the SFBC email list today:
P.S.: As long as I'm proposing letters to the editor, might
somebody wish to write in to mention the fact that we're all
expected to either lose our wheels or buy new U-locks? See
details here:
http://www.sfgov.org/dpt/meters.htm
Would this or any other city, "transit-first" or otherwise, ever
require motorists to throw part of their cars' security systems
away and make additional $80 purchases just to park?
Capitalism is the source of poverty and exploitation everywhere, not just in the bay area. That is why we are anti-capitalist. In San Francisco there are thousands of people who are homeless because (under capitalism) we do not build houses for the people who need them, but for the people who can pay for them. We are not anti-american (if by that you mean that we hate everyone in the US). We are anti-american, if you mean we are against the US government. The government federal, state and local serves and protects the interests of the rich. In those few instances where it has enacted anti-poverty legislation, it is only because it was afraid of what might happen if it didn't. In the bay area, people are unemployed. A direct result of capitalism. There is plenty of work to be done, just take a look at the potholes in the roads, or the buildings falling apart, there are plenty of people to do that work. Capitalism is just incapeable of putting those together consistently. When people do work, as the other commenter was alluding to, they don't have any freedom to control the kinds of work they do. Even the best bosses are still little dictators. In the bay area, like everywhere, most people spend most of their lives working under conditions that they don't control to make money for someone else. And when they get pissed off about it, there are police to shut them down. I could go on and on. Anyway. Don't take this as support for Cuba though. Cuba is a capitalist country too, just run by bureaucrats who like to pretend they support the poor instead of overtly declaring their intentions... actually that's a lot like the bay area... :)
I watched the breakoff splinter group. It was no where near 1,000 (300 at *very* most). Why this desire to lie from both sides?
This type of action is only a problem if you are actually opposed to the war, or more generally if you hope to change the society you live in for the better. Starting with short-term anti-war goals: it's trivially obvious that the only possible way to avert war is to mobilize public opinion strongly against it. And it's even more obvious that smashing corporate windows will have the opposite effect. If the anti-war movement is allowed to be painted, by virtue of the actions of a few of its members, as using senseless violence in the struggle against war, it will immediately lose the sympathies of a large segment of the population. And it will be less effective as a direct result, and thus less likely to prevent the deaths of tens or hundreds of thousands of innocents.
Perhaps you'll offer a big-picture defense of the protests. After all, while this kind of protest may make war on Iraq more and not less likely, it is aimed at overturning what you see as the much greater overall evil of the international capitalist order, whose human costs vastly exceed those of a war like this one. To which I can only reply: what kind of
moron do you have to be to believe this? You think smashing windows is the first step on the way to taking over the physical infrastructure of capitalism from below, with your two thousand radicals stand-ins for the secretly anarchist masses? You think that this kind of "symbolic" action is going to radicalize the population in favour of your ideas? What planet are you living on?
Please, please, think about the consequences of your actions. If you fuck up the anti-war movement, and its being made less effective reduces its power to avert or cut short a terrible war, you have the blood of thousands of innocents on your Starbucks window-smashing hands.
Perhaps you'll offer a big-picture defense of the protests. After all, while this kind of protest may make war on Iraq more and not less likely, it is aimed at overturning what you see as the much greater overall evil of the international capitalist order, whose human costs vastly exceed those of a war like this one. To which I can only reply: what kind of
moron do you have to be to believe this? You think smashing windows is the first step on the way to taking over the physical infrastructure of capitalism from below, with your two thousand radicals stand-ins for the secretly anarchist masses? You think that this kind of "symbolic" action is going to radicalize the population in favour of your ideas? What planet are you living on?
Please, please, think about the consequences of your actions. If you fuck up the anti-war movement, and its being made less effective reduces its power to avert or cut short a terrible war, you have the blood of thousands of innocents on your Starbucks window-smashing hands.
As someone who participated in the breakaway march, I found it to be much more effective than participating in a police-permitted demonstration. However, that's my opinion. I tend to be more "radical" in my tactics than mainstream liberal democrats and the ANSWER folks. Although I consider myself to be an anarchist, I respect everyone who turned out on Sat to protest the war, regardless of their political persuasion. We all have a role to play in trying to stop this war.
At the IAC march, I saw someone holding a sign that said "People with portfolios against the war." As much as I (and most other anarchists) find that type of sentiment to be repugnant, I did not see a single anarchist shouting at that person or otherwise verbally abusing him. However, I found myself consistently being verbally assaulted by "mainstream" liberals who didn't like the sign I was holding or the fact that I had my face covered.
YOu liberals and leftists out there have the choice NOT to participate in anarchist actions. No one is forcing you to participate, nor are we insisting that you accept our tactics and ideology. Why do you demand we accept yours?
I would like to remind those self-proclaimed "mainstream" anti-war protestors who are so disparaging of the "radical left" that the demo they just participated in was organized by a Marxist organization. Without the far left, there wouldn't have been massive protests around the country this past weekend for you to participate in. Without the agitation of marxists and anarchists during the Vietnam war, there would not have been an anti-war movement for mainstream America to get involved in.
If you liberals and democrats out there don't like Marxists and anarchists expressing their views, perhaps you should begin organizing your own events.
Some of us believe in resisting this oil war by any means necessary. Get used to it. It will happen again.
At the IAC march, I saw someone holding a sign that said "People with portfolios against the war." As much as I (and most other anarchists) find that type of sentiment to be repugnant, I did not see a single anarchist shouting at that person or otherwise verbally abusing him. However, I found myself consistently being verbally assaulted by "mainstream" liberals who didn't like the sign I was holding or the fact that I had my face covered.
YOu liberals and leftists out there have the choice NOT to participate in anarchist actions. No one is forcing you to participate, nor are we insisting that you accept our tactics and ideology. Why do you demand we accept yours?
I would like to remind those self-proclaimed "mainstream" anti-war protestors who are so disparaging of the "radical left" that the demo they just participated in was organized by a Marxist organization. Without the far left, there wouldn't have been massive protests around the country this past weekend for you to participate in. Without the agitation of marxists and anarchists during the Vietnam war, there would not have been an anti-war movement for mainstream America to get involved in.
If you liberals and democrats out there don't like Marxists and anarchists expressing their views, perhaps you should begin organizing your own events.
Some of us believe in resisting this oil war by any means necessary. Get used to it. It will happen again.
Son,you need to read with more discernment.What I said was that the ordinary Cuban is better off today than under dictator Fulgencio Bautista.Maybe you disagree and think the Cuban people would have been better off if their country was still run by American sugar companies,the Mafia and had an Apartheid system of race segregation that made it very palatable to the Southern plutocrats who would go there for a taste of sin and wild times away from their traditional restraints.
Did I say I would like to live in Cuba?No.Did I say I agreed with Cuban social structure and regimentation?No.
But you seem to think you know better than I do about what I said so I will leave it at that.
Did I say I would like to live in Cuba?No.Did I say I agreed with Cuban social structure and regimentation?No.
But you seem to think you know better than I do about what I said so I will leave it at that.
the numbers mentioned in the press release are accurate. the breakaway march started with over 1000.
if you observed it later, yes, the numbers had shrunk by then, for whatever reason.
if you observed it later, yes, the numbers had shrunk by then, for whatever reason.
Just don't complain about police brutality when you use violent tactics. Rubber bullets aren't rubber.
The powers that be will see your tactics and raise them.
The powers that be will see your tactics and raise them.
if the rally organisers were as revolutionary as the black bloc they could have gotten 200,000 people to dismantel the sf jail, thus alleviating further concerns of arrests of grannies, new-to-protest yuppies, and other innocent or naive bystanders who are trying to have a nice picnic on the pesticide drenched civic center lawn.
Two can play that game.
Propose an alternative to capitalism. I would agree that the government-corporate incest has seriously damaged our democracy but that doesn't mean capitalism doesn't work. You hypocrites like to blame capitalism for all the oppression and poverty in the world. What you tender young souls do not understand is that in many areas of the world people would die for the opportunities that countries like the US have. And the american factories in their towns offer the best and sometimes only hope out of grinding poverty. If these companies packed up and left it would be devastating. And you mouth off immaturely about how evil it all is.. you have no idea how spoiled you are.
Why do the super powers have it so good? The answer is imperialism.
http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/
http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/
Many of those fleeing to the US in search of a better life are fleeing the excessives and exploitation of CAPITALISM just as much if not more so than from socialist countries.
I am not spoiled.I know life is mostly struggle and never easy if you are working class.I just think that we need to evolve into a society that is HUMANE,whether you label it capitalist or socialist I could care less.
I am not spoiled.I know life is mostly struggle and never easy if you are working class.I just think that we need to evolve into a society that is HUMANE,whether you label it capitalist or socialist I could care less.
>>by redsam • Thursday January 23, 2003 at 05:54 PM
Why do the super powers have it so good? The answer is imperialism.
http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/ <<
Great stuff...1916 marxist propaganda... capitalism cannot succeed because the monopolies will stifle creativity and progress. Take a look around...The marxist states have not been at the forefront of any technological revolution..now look at Japan,korea, US, and Taiwan...
all capitalist societies...are they all imperialistic as your mantra claims ??
Just show me one pure marxist society that has eclipsed the West in productivity, innovation and standard of living.
Why do the super powers have it so good? The answer is imperialism.
http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/ <<
Great stuff...1916 marxist propaganda... capitalism cannot succeed because the monopolies will stifle creativity and progress. Take a look around...The marxist states have not been at the forefront of any technological revolution..now look at Japan,korea, US, and Taiwan...
all capitalist societies...are they all imperialistic as your mantra claims ??
Just show me one pure marxist society that has eclipsed the West in productivity, innovation and standard of living.
I am a Sacramento resident who went to the Rally in S.F. on Saturday. I did not participate in the radical contigent march through the financial district and only learned of it from indymedia. Indy media says two confirmed arrests, but in the coverage of the demonstrations on Saturday, the Sacremeto Bee says that no arrests were reported in S.F.
It makes me wonder if the activists that were arrested are now being held in some secret cell. Scary
It makes me wonder if those who were arrested are being held in secret.
It makes me wonder if the activists that were arrested are now being held in some secret cell. Scary
It makes me wonder if those who were arrested are being held in secret.
I am a Sacramento resident who went to the Rally in S.F. on Saturday. I did not participate in the radical contigent march through the financial district and only learned of it from indymedia. Indy media says two confirmed arrests, but in the coverage of the demonstrations on Saturday, the Sacremeto Bee says that no arrests were reported in S.F.
It makes me wonder if the activists that were arrested are now being held in some secret cell. Scary
It makes me wonder if those who were arrested are being held in secret.
It makes me wonder if the activists that were arrested are now being held in some secret cell. Scary
It makes me wonder if those who were arrested are being held in secret.
and they were released without charges
see:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/01/1562075.php
and
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/01/1565114.php
see:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/01/1562075.php
and
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/01/1565114.php
how about a fair market with true controls for quality and safty? Or mabey something resulting from true democracy? They tried to come close in Guatamala before, but the U.S. capitalized on its power and sent in troops to topple the budding democracy.and those countries wth only the Americans to offer better wages have the americans to thank for eliminating competition and making their economy subservient to the U.S.
how about a fair market with true controls for quality and safty? Or mabey something resulting from true democracy? They tried to come close in Guatamala before, but the U.S. capitalized on its power and sent in troops to topple the budding democracy.and those countries wth only the Americans to offer better wages have the americans to thank for eliminating competition and making their economy subservient to the U.S.
how about a fair market with true controls for quality and safty? Or mabey something resulting from true democracy? They tried to come close in Guatamala before, but the U.S. capitalized on its power and sent in troops to topple the budding democracy.and those countries wth only the Americans to offer better wages have the americans to thank for eliminating competition and making their economy subservient to the U.S.
taggers have not affected anything at all. roaming the streets at night and writting shit no-one can read is about as revolutionary as wipping your ass. get real explain how running around at night with spray paint is not an utter wast of time. sure you might get someone to think "Hmm, thats interesting", if they could even read it , but really,what good does this do? You must be 16 or a twenty-something poser.get real
First of all capitalism is as natural as breathing. The most you can do is pervert it into an almost unrecognizeable form which usually means it becomes hidden. I can assure there are vast underground capitalist economies in N.Korea, Cuba, China and any other place you think isn't capitalist. If you want to protest , protest the perversion of the free markets. Monopolies don't exist without gov't help. Eco cycles are often greatly exaggerated by gov't policy. Just read your damn history of America. Do you think we have the lives we do through some sort of gov't benevolence. No. It was the lack of an intrusive gov't and the freedom it initailly protected(not granted) that set off the creativity and the desire to provide for oneself that got us here. Just remember when those bastards in Washington are passing laws they are restricting us. We have everything we need in the Constitution. New laws just restrict, they don't give us any more freedom except of course when they realize their stupidity and repeal laws. Gov't should protect and defend. THAT'S IT. End income taxation, all of it, cap gains, personal, corporate. Your work is yours. A flat consumption tax whose rate shows up on every receipt you get can finance the legitimate use of gov't. Perhaps then we can take back our morality. When I see a homeless person I won't blame the gov't. I will ask, "what can I do" That can mean actually banging a hammer for Habitat for Humanity or maybe writing a check to them with all my extra money. I can better control my wealth building power. I will have incentives to save and invest rather than spend on Giant SUV's that the gov't gives a tax break on. Now do you dumbass protestors get it. Freedom and hence capitalism is humanity's salvation. Protest gov't economic manipulation. You jackasses don't even get it, you protest with spray paint, but GEE how did you get it? Did Dupont hand it out for free? I think not. So even in your protests you support the so called evil you wish to destroy. I beg you to wake up, take a step back, and mobilize a genuine renaissance that will improve life for everyone.
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