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A Venezuelan anarchist viewpoint on Chavez
A conversation on how Venezuelan anarchists view the Chavez crisis with Rafa, a libertarian comrade of the CRA (Commission of Anarchist Relationships) of Venezuela on "Canarias Libertaria" on 10/12/02.
____________________________________
A - I N F O S N E W S S E R V I C E
http://www.ainfos.ca/
http://ainfos.ca/index24.html
________________________________
With this we are trying to contribute a different vision from what the media is giving (even those that call themselves "alternative"). We are neither for Chavez, nor for Fedecamaras or CTV or Coordinadora Democratica... We are for fomenting autonomy and self-management. We recommend you visit the web:
http://www.nodo50.org/ellibertario.
There you will find abundant information that is permanently updated. We earnestly request that you publish that URL; now, with so much informative intoxication, it is convenient that the vision of the Venezuelan comrades gets to all sides.
Q) How are you?
A) We are trying to inform on what is happening, we are hanging info on the web.
Q) How is the situation and how are the libertarians?
A) Some food is getting scarce and petrol too. All the anarchists are well, because we are not directly part of the sectors in conflict, although we are on the list of counterrevolutionaries that the Chavez supporters circulate on the Internet. In our web El Libertario you can read a report on what is happening, far from the hysteria of both sides. Regrettably, Internet is full of media that claims to be alternative and this misinforms as much as the private media. An example has been the lamentable deaths last Friday. The alternative media are circulating the version that it was a set-up of the opposition. And although that might be a hypothesis, it is very different of assuring that "that's the way it is", without proof. For me this is something very serious.
I can summarize our position: the strike called by the bosses and the CTV is not worthy, by any means, of our trust. But rejection of the strike doesn't mean, in any way, that I support to the regime, which has fallen into the errors, bad habits and exclusions that it claims to combat. So we are trying to connect with people who want to slowly but steadily build up an alternative to both sides. In fact there are many groups in this mindframe, leftwing people with which one can take a few steps, a few, I repeat.
Q) With the polarization in Venezuela (as the media describes the situation), it must be very difficult to remain between the two fires...
A) That is what we have tried
Q) That is recommendable.
A) We try to explain that the dissatisfaction with the regime is legitimate, but not to let that rage be used by others. On the one hand, criticizing the Chavez bureaucracy but not their membership. With the latter maybe, in the future, we can do things and right now, to insert two values: autonomy and self-management.
Q) Does it seem that Chavez has not given answers to Chavezism? The expectations have turned into nothing, haven't they?
A) Chavez is an incognito. Regrettably, many of them know that Chavez politically doesn't have any preparation, but they need him where he is to be able to be in power. Here everything is all mixed up together. But Chavez is government and he has NOT exercised his authority (his own followers say this). For example, none of the corrupt are in prison, nor is any "golpista" [participant in the coup] behind bars, nothing is known about what happened on April 11th ... because it is in the interest of the Chavez bureaucracy to have the "phantom" of a coup to be able to deviate attention from the important things; the fiscal and economic crisis. After April 11th, the radical sectors of The Chavez movement believed that it was their chance to radicalise the revolution. But they stopped the participation from above... it is incredible how Chavez copies the style of his predecessors: changing everything in order to change nothing. For example, from beginning of November the official sector has been welcoming the arrival of Christmas, organizing parties in the streets, with Christmas trees and bagpipes, putting ads in the papers...
Q) Do the Chavez supporters want more? Do they want changes in their situation, in their lives? Do they hope the regime will provide it for them or do they already know that it will only be possible if they obtain it through their own means?
A) The Chavist supporters DO want more, but they believe that it won't be possible due to the "sabotage of the people behind the coups." That is to say, they excuse the government's errors saying that [ex-President] Carlos Andres is behind a permanent destabilising plan that doesn't allow Chavez to get on with his work (sic). And the worst thing, they silence his critics in order to not give arguments to the right" (sic).
Chavez is the contention wall between this radical sector and the moderate sector that has occupied all the ministries: the PPT, the officialist MA, the MVR. So the grassroots sectors have been abandoning their own demands for what they consider the "defence of the revolution", but many already are fed up with being the government's cannon fodder. An example was Chavez supporters inside the university. After several actions, such as taking over the Dean's office of the UCV, the line imposed on them was to make street actions defending Chavez and paradoxically, they didn't carry out any more actions inside the university. That is to say, they lost the grassroots space they had won. It happens this way in neighbourhoods and other areas. With these grassroots people, we believe that, when they see for their own eyes what the bureaucracy of the State means, we can do things together. Some documents have already circulated that lightly criticize the "process", lightly because I imagine they don't want to be accused of being traitors.
Q) Here the TV news says that they are beginning to glimpse an electoral solution to the crisis and that Chavez is becoming inclined to that. Do they say same thing there?
A) Yes. In fact, we are so sure of it that we have already made the documents that we will distribute. The bureaucracies will end up making an electoral pact so that they can all get a piece of the cake. The solution will be an amendment of the constitution to allow early elections. At least that it is the line of the PPT.
Q) And what do the Chavez supporters say to that?
A) They say it is a betrayal. For that reason, the conversations are taken done with great care and discretion, because Chavez has gotten tired of saying that the others are some in favour of a coup and that their methods are faked.
Personally, I will love to see how they will explain it to their people. Here there is NO political discussion, what there is is very primitive. The speeches are full of adjectives and insults without substance, each side rejecting its opponent. So the opposition will also have to loosen up in its principles that "Chavez resigns immediately."
Q) Why have the Chavez supporters not taken over the factories acting autonomously from the Chavez bureaucracy? Wouldn't that be the logical thing to do?
A) It would be the logical thing... But they don't do it, because on one hand there isn't any union organization that moves this message amongst its members. That is to say, the workers don't know what this fully means, because Chavez has used this argument like a threat more than as a political strategy and on the other hand Chavez has declared the "inviolability of the private property."
Q) Then Chavez grassroots movements don't exist as such, they are only followers of power?
A) There is a bit of everything, you cannot generalize. There are those in the "Circulos Bolivarianos" with the best of intentions, with a priceless grassroots activity, and others, to my knowledge in a greater number than the previous, to whom the word 'revolution' is synonymous of a 'sure wage'. An example in the trade unions: I agree that the CTV is a rotten organisation, but to substitute it we need, I believe, short-, medium- and long-term strategies, educating people in the vision of a different syndicalism, organizing unions, spreading a programme. But the Chavez moveme nt became left alone as a threat to overthrow the leadership of the CTV. That's why they organized union elections... which they lost!! And they argued that it was because of an electoral swindle, but they were the ones who organized them!! So they have tried to raise a grassroots union base with a short-termed vision that is frightening, based on money, sinecures and talk, but without a short- and medium strategy, because the political vision is now a military one, confrontation and measuring forces as is currently occurring, and in this one of the people to blame is Chavez.
Part one of a series of two parts of a conversation on how Venezuelan anarchists view the Chavez crisis with Rafa, a libertarian comrade of the CRA (Commission of Anarchist Relationships) of Venezuela on "Canarias Libertaria" on 10/12/02.
Q) Is the revolution just verbosity spoken by the powers that be to stay in power? The revolution is not "felt," is not "treasured" by the general population, therefore they do not autonomously rally round it, is that it?
A) Correct. There is no self-criticism. Someone else is always to blame: the supporters of a coup d'etat, the CAP [political party], the FMI, imperialism, the Martians.... If we eliminate the other side, everything will magically fall in place. For example: the private media, it is certain, have carried out a very slanted news campaign, but The Chavez movement has been unable to mount their own sources of information that are not a replica of what they criticize. So watching Channel 8 (the State Channel), it like watching Globovision [the anti-Chavez channel] but with everything changed around. For Channel 8, "everything's calm and cool", the "the strike has flopped," etc.
Q) Latin American "magical realism"...; -)
A) From above they have tried to have their own newspapers, but the experiences have failed, not for a lack of readers, but due to the administrative disaster and internal corruption. For example, "El Correo del Presidente." In the same way the support they give to the community media, who do the job of [providing] counterinformation for the State, is dual. Of course the State supports those who guarantee them political coverage. Diffuse autonomy: in the case of radio stations, you receive the transmission equipment, you are not the owner, you are responsible for it for a while. That links you infinitely with the State, as the manager of a community radio. The self-censorship is evident, for the fear of displeasing those who have offered you their support.
Q) How do you perceive the future in the mid-term?
A) I believe it will end up in elections.
Q) Will Chavez run again?
A) I imagine that Chavez will convince his supporters to campaign and to try to defeat the others through votes. So the Chavez followers will be busy plastering walls with posters and giving out flyers for the next few months.
The administration of the Chavez government has been very, very bad, but the economic crisis has been overlapped by the political crisis.. The extra income due to the rise in the price of the petroleum has filled the arks of the State several times, which they then empty in populist plans and expenses.
Q) With the elections, the most radical sector of The Chavez movement will break off and go their own way, won't they?
A) That is what you would expect.... but maybe, just maybe, they might be seduced again with that of "defeating the coup with votes" and starting afresh. I believe that if the elections were held tomorrow Chavez would win again, firstly because the opposition doesn't have a reliable leader; secondly, their arguments do not connect with the popular classes; thirdly, politicians from the past, from the IV republic are making all of their racket, so the notion that a lot of people share is that of "I prefer Chavez before going back to the past". I believe that a more solid strategy would be to allow Chavez to govern and let the economic crisis show its face and the inability of the State to improve the standard of living, plus the cases of corruption.. I think both sides can summon up more or less the same amount of support.
Q) So the chances of a civil war is out of the question?
A) There are uncontrollable groups on both sides, but here the deaths of April 11 and the deaths of last Friday have soaked in deep. Maybe it is necessary to use a magnifying glass to look at the sectors of armed radical followers of Chavez who, if they end up breaking away from The Chavez movement, a difficult thing, but it could indeed happen.
The capacity of tricking yourself here is tremendous. Nobody questions what happened to Lucas Rincon, for example. The trustworthy official of Chavez who announced to the country on April 11 that Chavez had given up. When Chavez returned to power, not only was the guy not openly reprehended, but they promoted him to Minister of Defence! And a few days later he was sent off as an ambassador outside the country!! Now he has been retired, but nobody inside the Chavez movement, has asked why that announcement was made, why he continues to be a man of trust, why they rewarded him, why they don't prosecute him for participating in the coup.... Here there are intentional amnesias, forgetfulness for convenience's sake... I don't forget. There are things on both sides that force you, to keep a distance. Coherence, I say, a minimum of ethics. Here they say that there is nothing more "adeco" [???] than a Bolivariano... The same cultural mould which has to be replaced in order for a change, of whatever nature, to occur.
Q) Hey, from here, apart from circulating this information, can we help in any other way? If you want, I can tidy up the conversation and put it on the Canary Islands Libertarian list?
A) As you wish, comrade. It would be useful, because regrettably some anarchists outside the country are criticising us saying that we are part of the "counterrevolution". On the other hand, there are others who are talking about a supposed anarcho-Chavez movement (we know about the messages that circulate A-infos and other lists). I believe that for us the position is clear: it is necessary to build an alternative with the sectors with which we can, trying slowly but steadily to take firm steps. If only this were a revolution, albeit a Marxist one. We would have different angle of opposition, criticism, confrontation, and even of construction.. But, regrettably, it is just more of the same thing, with some advances and many setbacks.
We are thinking about how to get the most out in the future of the discontent with the armed forces and to take some steps in that direction. Get the soldier back to the barracks, conscientious objection, no military instruction in the schools... I think that in a next future, the way things are now, it is possible to open those windows, because there is a lot of talk about the error of giving belligerency to the armed forces.
Q) How can we help from here?
A) It would be a lot of help that you spread the message of our project of a centre for libertarian social studies, we want to open an ateneo here.
Q) Hey, we'll carry on another day, ok?
A) Sure compa.
Q) A big hug.
A) A hug. Greetings to all the libertarians from the Canary Islands.
......
Taken from the Canarias Libertaria mail list.
Full Spanish transcript on:
http://red-libertaria.net/noticias/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=11
9
For more news on Venezuela, visit:
http://www.nodo50.org/ellibertario
Translation by Red Libertaria Apoyo Mutuo
http://www.red-libertaria.net - internacional [at] red-libertaria.net
*******
********
****** The A-Infos News Service ******
News about and of interest to anarchists
******
COMMANDS: lists [at] ainfos.ca
REPLIES: a-infos-d [at] ainfos.ca
HELP: a-infos-org [at] ainfos.ca
WWW: http://www.ainfos.ca/
INFO: http://www.ainfos.ca/org
-To receive a-infos in one language only mail lists [at] ainfos.ca the message:
unsubscribe a-infos
subscribe a-infos-X
where X = en, ca, de, fr, etc. (i.e. the language code)
A - I N F O S N E W S S E R V I C E
http://www.ainfos.ca/
http://ainfos.ca/index24.html
________________________________
With this we are trying to contribute a different vision from what the media is giving (even those that call themselves "alternative"). We are neither for Chavez, nor for Fedecamaras or CTV or Coordinadora Democratica... We are for fomenting autonomy and self-management. We recommend you visit the web:
http://www.nodo50.org/ellibertario.
There you will find abundant information that is permanently updated. We earnestly request that you publish that URL; now, with so much informative intoxication, it is convenient that the vision of the Venezuelan comrades gets to all sides.
Q) How are you?
A) We are trying to inform on what is happening, we are hanging info on the web.
Q) How is the situation and how are the libertarians?
A) Some food is getting scarce and petrol too. All the anarchists are well, because we are not directly part of the sectors in conflict, although we are on the list of counterrevolutionaries that the Chavez supporters circulate on the Internet. In our web El Libertario you can read a report on what is happening, far from the hysteria of both sides. Regrettably, Internet is full of media that claims to be alternative and this misinforms as much as the private media. An example has been the lamentable deaths last Friday. The alternative media are circulating the version that it was a set-up of the opposition. And although that might be a hypothesis, it is very different of assuring that "that's the way it is", without proof. For me this is something very serious.
I can summarize our position: the strike called by the bosses and the CTV is not worthy, by any means, of our trust. But rejection of the strike doesn't mean, in any way, that I support to the regime, which has fallen into the errors, bad habits and exclusions that it claims to combat. So we are trying to connect with people who want to slowly but steadily build up an alternative to both sides. In fact there are many groups in this mindframe, leftwing people with which one can take a few steps, a few, I repeat.
Q) With the polarization in Venezuela (as the media describes the situation), it must be very difficult to remain between the two fires...
A) That is what we have tried
Q) That is recommendable.
A) We try to explain that the dissatisfaction with the regime is legitimate, but not to let that rage be used by others. On the one hand, criticizing the Chavez bureaucracy but not their membership. With the latter maybe, in the future, we can do things and right now, to insert two values: autonomy and self-management.
Q) Does it seem that Chavez has not given answers to Chavezism? The expectations have turned into nothing, haven't they?
A) Chavez is an incognito. Regrettably, many of them know that Chavez politically doesn't have any preparation, but they need him where he is to be able to be in power. Here everything is all mixed up together. But Chavez is government and he has NOT exercised his authority (his own followers say this). For example, none of the corrupt are in prison, nor is any "golpista" [participant in the coup] behind bars, nothing is known about what happened on April 11th ... because it is in the interest of the Chavez bureaucracy to have the "phantom" of a coup to be able to deviate attention from the important things; the fiscal and economic crisis. After April 11th, the radical sectors of The Chavez movement believed that it was their chance to radicalise the revolution. But they stopped the participation from above... it is incredible how Chavez copies the style of his predecessors: changing everything in order to change nothing. For example, from beginning of November the official sector has been welcoming the arrival of Christmas, organizing parties in the streets, with Christmas trees and bagpipes, putting ads in the papers...
Q) Do the Chavez supporters want more? Do they want changes in their situation, in their lives? Do they hope the regime will provide it for them or do they already know that it will only be possible if they obtain it through their own means?
A) The Chavist supporters DO want more, but they believe that it won't be possible due to the "sabotage of the people behind the coups." That is to say, they excuse the government's errors saying that [ex-President] Carlos Andres is behind a permanent destabilising plan that doesn't allow Chavez to get on with his work (sic). And the worst thing, they silence his critics in order to not give arguments to the right" (sic).
Chavez is the contention wall between this radical sector and the moderate sector that has occupied all the ministries: the PPT, the officialist MA, the MVR. So the grassroots sectors have been abandoning their own demands for what they consider the "defence of the revolution", but many already are fed up with being the government's cannon fodder. An example was Chavez supporters inside the university. After several actions, such as taking over the Dean's office of the UCV, the line imposed on them was to make street actions defending Chavez and paradoxically, they didn't carry out any more actions inside the university. That is to say, they lost the grassroots space they had won. It happens this way in neighbourhoods and other areas. With these grassroots people, we believe that, when they see for their own eyes what the bureaucracy of the State means, we can do things together. Some documents have already circulated that lightly criticize the "process", lightly because I imagine they don't want to be accused of being traitors.
Q) Here the TV news says that they are beginning to glimpse an electoral solution to the crisis and that Chavez is becoming inclined to that. Do they say same thing there?
A) Yes. In fact, we are so sure of it that we have already made the documents that we will distribute. The bureaucracies will end up making an electoral pact so that they can all get a piece of the cake. The solution will be an amendment of the constitution to allow early elections. At least that it is the line of the PPT.
Q) And what do the Chavez supporters say to that?
A) They say it is a betrayal. For that reason, the conversations are taken done with great care and discretion, because Chavez has gotten tired of saying that the others are some in favour of a coup and that their methods are faked.
Personally, I will love to see how they will explain it to their people. Here there is NO political discussion, what there is is very primitive. The speeches are full of adjectives and insults without substance, each side rejecting its opponent. So the opposition will also have to loosen up in its principles that "Chavez resigns immediately."
Q) Why have the Chavez supporters not taken over the factories acting autonomously from the Chavez bureaucracy? Wouldn't that be the logical thing to do?
A) It would be the logical thing... But they don't do it, because on one hand there isn't any union organization that moves this message amongst its members. That is to say, the workers don't know what this fully means, because Chavez has used this argument like a threat more than as a political strategy and on the other hand Chavez has declared the "inviolability of the private property."
Q) Then Chavez grassroots movements don't exist as such, they are only followers of power?
A) There is a bit of everything, you cannot generalize. There are those in the "Circulos Bolivarianos" with the best of intentions, with a priceless grassroots activity, and others, to my knowledge in a greater number than the previous, to whom the word 'revolution' is synonymous of a 'sure wage'. An example in the trade unions: I agree that the CTV is a rotten organisation, but to substitute it we need, I believe, short-, medium- and long-term strategies, educating people in the vision of a different syndicalism, organizing unions, spreading a programme. But the Chavez moveme nt became left alone as a threat to overthrow the leadership of the CTV. That's why they organized union elections... which they lost!! And they argued that it was because of an electoral swindle, but they were the ones who organized them!! So they have tried to raise a grassroots union base with a short-termed vision that is frightening, based on money, sinecures and talk, but without a short- and medium strategy, because the political vision is now a military one, confrontation and measuring forces as is currently occurring, and in this one of the people to blame is Chavez.
Part one of a series of two parts of a conversation on how Venezuelan anarchists view the Chavez crisis with Rafa, a libertarian comrade of the CRA (Commission of Anarchist Relationships) of Venezuela on "Canarias Libertaria" on 10/12/02.
Q) Is the revolution just verbosity spoken by the powers that be to stay in power? The revolution is not "felt," is not "treasured" by the general population, therefore they do not autonomously rally round it, is that it?
A) Correct. There is no self-criticism. Someone else is always to blame: the supporters of a coup d'etat, the CAP [political party], the FMI, imperialism, the Martians.... If we eliminate the other side, everything will magically fall in place. For example: the private media, it is certain, have carried out a very slanted news campaign, but The Chavez movement has been unable to mount their own sources of information that are not a replica of what they criticize. So watching Channel 8 (the State Channel), it like watching Globovision [the anti-Chavez channel] but with everything changed around. For Channel 8, "everything's calm and cool", the "the strike has flopped," etc.
Q) Latin American "magical realism"...; -)
A) From above they have tried to have their own newspapers, but the experiences have failed, not for a lack of readers, but due to the administrative disaster and internal corruption. For example, "El Correo del Presidente." In the same way the support they give to the community media, who do the job of [providing] counterinformation for the State, is dual. Of course the State supports those who guarantee them political coverage. Diffuse autonomy: in the case of radio stations, you receive the transmission equipment, you are not the owner, you are responsible for it for a while. That links you infinitely with the State, as the manager of a community radio. The self-censorship is evident, for the fear of displeasing those who have offered you their support.
Q) How do you perceive the future in the mid-term?
A) I believe it will end up in elections.
Q) Will Chavez run again?
A) I imagine that Chavez will convince his supporters to campaign and to try to defeat the others through votes. So the Chavez followers will be busy plastering walls with posters and giving out flyers for the next few months.
The administration of the Chavez government has been very, very bad, but the economic crisis has been overlapped by the political crisis.. The extra income due to the rise in the price of the petroleum has filled the arks of the State several times, which they then empty in populist plans and expenses.
Q) With the elections, the most radical sector of The Chavez movement will break off and go their own way, won't they?
A) That is what you would expect.... but maybe, just maybe, they might be seduced again with that of "defeating the coup with votes" and starting afresh. I believe that if the elections were held tomorrow Chavez would win again, firstly because the opposition doesn't have a reliable leader; secondly, their arguments do not connect with the popular classes; thirdly, politicians from the past, from the IV republic are making all of their racket, so the notion that a lot of people share is that of "I prefer Chavez before going back to the past". I believe that a more solid strategy would be to allow Chavez to govern and let the economic crisis show its face and the inability of the State to improve the standard of living, plus the cases of corruption.. I think both sides can summon up more or less the same amount of support.
Q) So the chances of a civil war is out of the question?
A) There are uncontrollable groups on both sides, but here the deaths of April 11 and the deaths of last Friday have soaked in deep. Maybe it is necessary to use a magnifying glass to look at the sectors of armed radical followers of Chavez who, if they end up breaking away from The Chavez movement, a difficult thing, but it could indeed happen.
The capacity of tricking yourself here is tremendous. Nobody questions what happened to Lucas Rincon, for example. The trustworthy official of Chavez who announced to the country on April 11 that Chavez had given up. When Chavez returned to power, not only was the guy not openly reprehended, but they promoted him to Minister of Defence! And a few days later he was sent off as an ambassador outside the country!! Now he has been retired, but nobody inside the Chavez movement, has asked why that announcement was made, why he continues to be a man of trust, why they rewarded him, why they don't prosecute him for participating in the coup.... Here there are intentional amnesias, forgetfulness for convenience's sake... I don't forget. There are things on both sides that force you, to keep a distance. Coherence, I say, a minimum of ethics. Here they say that there is nothing more "adeco" [???] than a Bolivariano... The same cultural mould which has to be replaced in order for a change, of whatever nature, to occur.
Q) Hey, from here, apart from circulating this information, can we help in any other way? If you want, I can tidy up the conversation and put it on the Canary Islands Libertarian list?
A) As you wish, comrade. It would be useful, because regrettably some anarchists outside the country are criticising us saying that we are part of the "counterrevolution". On the other hand, there are others who are talking about a supposed anarcho-Chavez movement (we know about the messages that circulate A-infos and other lists). I believe that for us the position is clear: it is necessary to build an alternative with the sectors with which we can, trying slowly but steadily to take firm steps. If only this were a revolution, albeit a Marxist one. We would have different angle of opposition, criticism, confrontation, and even of construction.. But, regrettably, it is just more of the same thing, with some advances and many setbacks.
We are thinking about how to get the most out in the future of the discontent with the armed forces and to take some steps in that direction. Get the soldier back to the barracks, conscientious objection, no military instruction in the schools... I think that in a next future, the way things are now, it is possible to open those windows, because there is a lot of talk about the error of giving belligerency to the armed forces.
Q) How can we help from here?
A) It would be a lot of help that you spread the message of our project of a centre for libertarian social studies, we want to open an ateneo here.
Q) Hey, we'll carry on another day, ok?
A) Sure compa.
Q) A big hug.
A) A hug. Greetings to all the libertarians from the Canary Islands.
......
Taken from the Canarias Libertaria mail list.
Full Spanish transcript on:
http://red-libertaria.net/noticias/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=11
9
For more news on Venezuela, visit:
http://www.nodo50.org/ellibertario
Translation by Red Libertaria Apoyo Mutuo
http://www.red-libertaria.net - internacional [at] red-libertaria.net
*******
********
****** The A-Infos News Service ******
News about and of interest to anarchists
******
COMMANDS: lists [at] ainfos.ca
REPLIES: a-infos-d [at] ainfos.ca
HELP: a-infos-org [at] ainfos.ca
WWW: http://www.ainfos.ca/
INFO: http://www.ainfos.ca/org
-To receive a-infos in one language only mail lists [at] ainfos.ca the message:
unsubscribe a-infos
subscribe a-infos-X
where X = en, ca, de, fr, etc. (i.e. the language code)
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Comments
(Hide Comments)
This group is totally discredited. Who translated this "interview"? Why is there no disclosure? What? Otto Reich write this? He's been caught ghostwriting false disinfo before!
This group - abusing the title "anarchist" - causes Nestor Makhno, Emma Goldman, Ricardo Flores Magon and all true anarchists to turn in their graves.
At best, they are "beautiful losers," who only support the working class in the abstract, but when the working class rises up, as it has done in Venezuela, they show their rich kid true colors.
At worst, "they" are Otto Reich.
This group has ZERO credibility among anarchists in Latin America.
I'm not sure who is worse, the "anarchist" or the anonymous interviewer. I guess the "anarchist," who claims:
"Here there is NO political discussion, what there is is very primitive."
Hmmmm. Primitive? That's exactly what the rich folks think about the poor: Primitive savages.
What kind of anarcho has that level of elitist hostility toward the poor?
You're right. This smells.
Who are you,'they are not..."?
If you are an honest anarchist or even not,go find one to tell us why they are not anarchists.
If you are an honest anarchist or even not,go find one to tell us why they are not anarchists.
He's mildly annoying crank who pretends to be an anarchist in order to get the attention in cyberspace that his vestigial social skills deny him in meat space.
anyone who cant figure out what Lucas Rincon's role was during the april counter-coup has no business critising other people's tactics, especially as chávez was chosen by millions of venezuelans, and this chump was chosen by none.
>We are thinking about how to get the most out in the future of the discontent with the armed forces and to take some steps in that direction. Get the soldier back to the barracks, conscientious objection, no military instruction in the schools... I think that in a next future, the way things are now, it is possible to open those windows, because there is a lot of talk about the error of giving belligerency to the armed forces.
so i guess u'd have the soldiers stop distributing food, or painting schools, or building bridges. or defending people against rich crazy coup-plotters with their weapons dumps under five-star hotels. there's a class war going on and all u can do is attempt to undermine the most powerful ally the poor have. brilliant!
>We are thinking about how to get the most out in the future of the discontent with the armed forces and to take some steps in that direction. Get the soldier back to the barracks, conscientious objection, no military instruction in the schools... I think that in a next future, the way things are now, it is possible to open those windows, because there is a lot of talk about the error of giving belligerency to the armed forces.
so i guess u'd have the soldiers stop distributing food, or painting schools, or building bridges. or defending people against rich crazy coup-plotters with their weapons dumps under five-star hotels. there's a class war going on and all u can do is attempt to undermine the most powerful ally the poor have. brilliant!
Mr. anonimous.
You are "attacking the man" instead of attacking his arguments, and this constitutes fallacies. So if you better want some crediblilty on your next postings, best start attacking the arguments with better "boomproof" arguments. I know in the flesh some journalists of EL LIBERTARIO, I live in Venezuela and I think your fallacies of "attacking the man and not his arguments" are poor against theirs.
Trastor
You are "attacking the man" instead of attacking his arguments, and this constitutes fallacies. So if you better want some crediblilty on your next postings, best start attacking the arguments with better "boomproof" arguments. I know in the flesh some journalists of EL LIBERTARIO, I live in Venezuela and I think your fallacies of "attacking the man and not his arguments" are poor against theirs.
Trastor
For more information:
http://mipagina.cantv.net/interfaz
Attacking the man is only applicable when debating him. It is perfectly legitimate to call into question the motives and intent of a criminal, in fact, it is imperative. This is not the same as trying to defeat an idea by defaming the person asserting it. You need to study fallacies more.
Chavez was elected, it is true, but with lies he managed to hipnotize not only all the poors, but almost everybody of well understanding in Venezuela. Because he promised like all politicians a lot, I invite all of you to practice some spanish and read the opinions of all the venezuelan ecologists at:
http://www.elistas.net/lista/lea/archivo
(opinions of ecologists for me are not so different from the EL LIBERTARIO point of view)
The most important conclusion for me now (i am venezuelan living in the frontier in a small town called Santa Elena de Uairen) is that everybody should help out chavez right now, IT IS A MUST, ALL FORCES MUST HELP CHAVEZ NOW! but only because Chavez is the less bad of the options for venezuela right now...
Trastor
http://www.elistas.net/lista/lea/archivo
(opinions of ecologists for me are not so different from the EL LIBERTARIO point of view)
The most important conclusion for me now (i am venezuelan living in the frontier in a small town called Santa Elena de Uairen) is that everybody should help out chavez right now, IT IS A MUST, ALL FORCES MUST HELP CHAVEZ NOW! but only because Chavez is the less bad of the options for venezuela right now...
Trastor
For more information:
http://mipagina.cantv.net/interfaz
YES!!!, the whole situation is very primitive. In part I think the fault of this primitivity is of the mass media, but not only the commercial mass media, also chavez's stated owned TV channel fueled this hostility on the population.
We can remember 3 years of agressive discourse by chavez to us, his fellow venezuelans. In order to prepare us for this struggle against US capitalism. Now Chavez is not with this language any more, like the child who throw a stone and hides the hand trying to cover his action.
And the commercial media is fueling the violence now with his 24 hour anti-chavez campaign.
There are persons who discuss on the streets, and shout to each other: I WANT PEACE!, I WANT PEACE!, but they shout aloud with the couldrum of anger in his face expressions, incongruent to see this people with such a cross-short-circuited neurons!!!!!, first Chavez instigates his bolivarian circles since 3 years ago with sub-bliminal discurses of "taking the sword", "resisting until death", etc, and now his own "god-alike-egipcian faraoh" leader (Chavez) tells them to look for peace, but the damaged is already done, the people is discussing with much violence!.
I invite to all of you to hear discussions happening every day at a web site crowded with venezuelan ecologists, here are real anarchist points of view sometimes:
http://www.elistas.net/lista/lea/archivo
The only bad thing is that most of the messages there are in spanish...
The problem here is not that a person calls primitive the poors, no, never, the primitive in all this situation is in poors, middle class, and the richs, everybody in venezuela is experiencing this "primitive" problem in their minds, not only the poors.
And I am scared of this, I am venezuelan and live in venezuela...
Trastor
We can remember 3 years of agressive discourse by chavez to us, his fellow venezuelans. In order to prepare us for this struggle against US capitalism. Now Chavez is not with this language any more, like the child who throw a stone and hides the hand trying to cover his action.
And the commercial media is fueling the violence now with his 24 hour anti-chavez campaign.
There are persons who discuss on the streets, and shout to each other: I WANT PEACE!, I WANT PEACE!, but they shout aloud with the couldrum of anger in his face expressions, incongruent to see this people with such a cross-short-circuited neurons!!!!!, first Chavez instigates his bolivarian circles since 3 years ago with sub-bliminal discurses of "taking the sword", "resisting until death", etc, and now his own "god-alike-egipcian faraoh" leader (Chavez) tells them to look for peace, but the damaged is already done, the people is discussing with much violence!.
I invite to all of you to hear discussions happening every day at a web site crowded with venezuelan ecologists, here are real anarchist points of view sometimes:
http://www.elistas.net/lista/lea/archivo
The only bad thing is that most of the messages there are in spanish...
The problem here is not that a person calls primitive the poors, no, never, the primitive in all this situation is in poors, middle class, and the richs, everybody in venezuela is experiencing this "primitive" problem in their minds, not only the poors.
And I am scared of this, I am venezuelan and live in venezuela...
Trastor
For more information:
http://mipagina.cantv.net/interfaz
Some anonymous cowards come on here telling us who is who.I just went to El Libertario and although I don't read spanish anyone can see for themselves that it looks kosher.
Getting back to the lying trolls and the marxist toe rags who support the fraud Al Gioraldo's mudslide.You can all suck on a big fat turd because you have outed yourselves as McCartheyist bullies,smear artists and total enemies of all decent anarchists.You will get what you richly deserve for these foul deeds you have done.Good riddance to bad rubbish.
Getting back to the lying trolls and the marxist toe rags who support the fraud Al Gioraldo's mudslide.You can all suck on a big fat turd because you have outed yourselves as McCartheyist bullies,smear artists and total enemies of all decent anarchists.You will get what you richly deserve for these foul deeds you have done.Good riddance to bad rubbish.
Compas de “El Libertario”; reconozco la labor ácrata que vienen realizando desde hace tanto tiempo y a muchos de Uds. los leo desde que escribían en el correo A. Mi periódico favorito es el suyo y sin embargo me declaro ANARCO-CHAVISTA. ¿y que le vamos a hacer si me encantan las paradojas y la incertidumbre?
Mi punto se resume a que me gusta la posición de El Libertario, y me parece que deben mantenerla, pues es la del "anarquismo doctrinario". Sin embargo todo mi jaleo se debe a dos cosas:
La primera es que en lugar de atacar al sistema o al estado, en su crítica retroalimentan (sin querer y por desinformados) las mentiras diseñadas por el Mass media y con eso no desacreditan a la revolución, ni al chavismo ni a Chávez, sino al anarquismo. Quedando frente a los sectores populares, como mentirosos al servicio de la oligarquía, ó en el mejor de los casos como apáticos o como escuálidos.
La segunda es que no todos los anarquistas apoyan su posición frente al chavismo, aunque ustedes vergonzosamente la autoproclamen como la ÚNICA posible, y tampoco todos los ácratas (y menos los más pobres) tienen acceso a Internet para defenderse, o no disponen del tiempo ni los recursos para tener su propio periódico libertario, pues dedican todos sus esfuerzos a la resolución autogestionaria de sus propios problemas, que son muchos y son reales.
El anarco-chavismo es real, existe, se arrastra y crece desde lo mas profundo de los sectores populares. Los círculos BOLIVARIANOS, construimos el tejido social y vivimos la anarquía, no hablamos de ella, ni nos autoproclamamos únicos y exclusivos exponentes de la misma. No somos eruditos anarquistas de salón, instruidos anarco-apaticos que desde sus computadoras clase media no comprenden lo que pasa en los barrios y solo admiran sus ombligos sin reconocer lo que es autentico y genuino. Nosotros somos consecuentes con nuestros ideales y luchas, no somos conformistas, sino que defendemos nuestras conquistas.
Soy la enfermedad ANARCO-CHAVISTA que se opone al capital, al Estado y al anarquismo institucionalizado...
En mi opinión las intenciones de Chávez son genuinas. En mi opinión no se le quiere deponer por lo que hace mal, sino por lo que hace bien.
Es tan ignorante el que considera a Chávez el “héroe salvador” que va a resolver todos nuestros problemas, como el que lo cree el responsable de todos los males. Y es sumamente simplificador atribuirle a Chávez la Revolución Bolivariana, o creer que apoyar el proceso es sinónimo de apoyar un Estado, una República o un gobernante...
Si éste proceso no evoluciona hacia una “revolución anarquista”, no será un fracaso de Chávez ni de la revolución Bolivariana, sino de los anarquistas.
¡¡¡Ya basta de buscar los culpables en terceros!!!. Si la Revolución rusa fue una mierda la culpa no fue de los bolcheviques; sino de los anarquistas rusos que obviamente no supieron hacer lo suyo...
Suponiendo la utopía de que los que gobiernan fuesen seres superiores, infinitamente desinteresados, de moral incorruptible y de una inteligencia sobre humana, les digo que estaríamos en las mismas. Pues este gobierno de los super Mesías, seguiría siendo una estructura rígida y jerárquica, por lo que sería torpe e ineficiente, además estaría diseñada para perpetuar las injusticias al estar basada en una relación de gobernantes-gobernados.
Un sistema horizontal y autoorganizado es flexible, dinámico, tiene una inteligencia colectiva propia y es autocontenido por lo que exhibe una geometría fractal, se amolda al caos porque proviene del mismo, no se le resiste sino que fluye con éste, por lo que evoluciona y cambia rápidamente y es tan indómito e incontrolable como la naturaleza misma y tan diverso como la vida, por lo que es sumamente estable...
El bolivarianismo es como un anarquismo discreto; no llega a ser un continuum como la anarquía, por lo que no logra ni de cerca a la flexibilidad y eficiencia de la misma; sin embargo la roza.
La revolución bolivariana, invita a la participación, resuelve algunos problemas inmediatos y urgentes al tiempo que es un proceso donde nos enrrumbamos en un sentido que me parece favorable.
Yo creo que se aprende más en un día de practica autogestionaria que en 100 años de predica anarquista. El chavismo pone la semilla, quizás sin saberlo, de la verdadera liberación del hombre, de la insumisión, de la rebeldía y de la anarquía.
¡Viva la revolución Bolivariana! ¡Chávez somos todos! ¡Anarquía para el 2021! O antes o después, quien sabe?
Salud, Alegría y Anarquía...
Luis.
Teseracto Bolivariano Anarquista Salom Mesa
Mi punto se resume a que me gusta la posición de El Libertario, y me parece que deben mantenerla, pues es la del "anarquismo doctrinario". Sin embargo todo mi jaleo se debe a dos cosas:
La primera es que en lugar de atacar al sistema o al estado, en su crítica retroalimentan (sin querer y por desinformados) las mentiras diseñadas por el Mass media y con eso no desacreditan a la revolución, ni al chavismo ni a Chávez, sino al anarquismo. Quedando frente a los sectores populares, como mentirosos al servicio de la oligarquía, ó en el mejor de los casos como apáticos o como escuálidos.
La segunda es que no todos los anarquistas apoyan su posición frente al chavismo, aunque ustedes vergonzosamente la autoproclamen como la ÚNICA posible, y tampoco todos los ácratas (y menos los más pobres) tienen acceso a Internet para defenderse, o no disponen del tiempo ni los recursos para tener su propio periódico libertario, pues dedican todos sus esfuerzos a la resolución autogestionaria de sus propios problemas, que son muchos y son reales.
El anarco-chavismo es real, existe, se arrastra y crece desde lo mas profundo de los sectores populares. Los círculos BOLIVARIANOS, construimos el tejido social y vivimos la anarquía, no hablamos de ella, ni nos autoproclamamos únicos y exclusivos exponentes de la misma. No somos eruditos anarquistas de salón, instruidos anarco-apaticos que desde sus computadoras clase media no comprenden lo que pasa en los barrios y solo admiran sus ombligos sin reconocer lo que es autentico y genuino. Nosotros somos consecuentes con nuestros ideales y luchas, no somos conformistas, sino que defendemos nuestras conquistas.
Soy la enfermedad ANARCO-CHAVISTA que se opone al capital, al Estado y al anarquismo institucionalizado...
En mi opinión las intenciones de Chávez son genuinas. En mi opinión no se le quiere deponer por lo que hace mal, sino por lo que hace bien.
Es tan ignorante el que considera a Chávez el “héroe salvador” que va a resolver todos nuestros problemas, como el que lo cree el responsable de todos los males. Y es sumamente simplificador atribuirle a Chávez la Revolución Bolivariana, o creer que apoyar el proceso es sinónimo de apoyar un Estado, una República o un gobernante...
Si éste proceso no evoluciona hacia una “revolución anarquista”, no será un fracaso de Chávez ni de la revolución Bolivariana, sino de los anarquistas.
¡¡¡Ya basta de buscar los culpables en terceros!!!. Si la Revolución rusa fue una mierda la culpa no fue de los bolcheviques; sino de los anarquistas rusos que obviamente no supieron hacer lo suyo...
Suponiendo la utopía de que los que gobiernan fuesen seres superiores, infinitamente desinteresados, de moral incorruptible y de una inteligencia sobre humana, les digo que estaríamos en las mismas. Pues este gobierno de los super Mesías, seguiría siendo una estructura rígida y jerárquica, por lo que sería torpe e ineficiente, además estaría diseñada para perpetuar las injusticias al estar basada en una relación de gobernantes-gobernados.
Un sistema horizontal y autoorganizado es flexible, dinámico, tiene una inteligencia colectiva propia y es autocontenido por lo que exhibe una geometría fractal, se amolda al caos porque proviene del mismo, no se le resiste sino que fluye con éste, por lo que evoluciona y cambia rápidamente y es tan indómito e incontrolable como la naturaleza misma y tan diverso como la vida, por lo que es sumamente estable...
El bolivarianismo es como un anarquismo discreto; no llega a ser un continuum como la anarquía, por lo que no logra ni de cerca a la flexibilidad y eficiencia de la misma; sin embargo la roza.
La revolución bolivariana, invita a la participación, resuelve algunos problemas inmediatos y urgentes al tiempo que es un proceso donde nos enrrumbamos en un sentido que me parece favorable.
Yo creo que se aprende más en un día de practica autogestionaria que en 100 años de predica anarquista. El chavismo pone la semilla, quizás sin saberlo, de la verdadera liberación del hombre, de la insumisión, de la rebeldía y de la anarquía.
¡Viva la revolución Bolivariana! ¡Chávez somos todos! ¡Anarquía para el 2021! O antes o después, quien sabe?
Salud, Alegría y Anarquía...
Luis.
Teseracto Bolivariano Anarquista Salom Mesa
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