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23 Reasons to Condemn Zionism
The outrageous racism, the blatant lies, the constant manipulation of everything and everyone, the ethnic cleansing....what IS there to like about Zionsim? Absolutely NOTHING!
1. "There is a huge gap between us (Jews) and our enemies not just in ability but in morality, culture, sanctity of life, and conscience. They are our
neighbors here, but it seems as if at a distance of a few hundred meters away, there are people who do not belong to our continent, to our world, but
actually belong to a different galaxy." Israeli president Moshe Katsav. The Jerusalem Post, May 10, 2001
2. "The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more".... Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28,
2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000
3. " [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs." Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts". New
Statesman, 25 June 1982.
4. "The Palestinians" would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." " Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a
speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988
5. "When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan,
Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.
6. "How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.
7. "There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed." Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969
8. "The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was
born and developed after the war." Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972.
9. David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their
country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler,
Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by
Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.
9a. Ben Gurion also warned in 1948 : "We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do return." Assuring his fellow Zionists that
Palestinians will never come back to their homes. "The old will die and the young will forget."
10. "We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of
General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.
11. "Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American
pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." - Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon
Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio. (Certainly the FBI's cover-up of the Israeli spy ring/phone tap scandal suggests that Mr. Sharon may not have been
joking.
12. "We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall
use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours." Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces - Gad Becker,
Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.
13. "We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return" David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, 18 July 1948, quoted in Michael Bar
Zohar's Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet, Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.
15. "We should prepare to go over to the offensive. Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem
regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate
Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai." David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff.
From Ben- Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.
16. "We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." Israel
Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum"
17. "Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because
geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in
the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country
that did not have a former Arab population." Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969.
18. "We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion
waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'" Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23
October 1979.
19. Rabin's description of the conquest of Lydda, after the completion of Plan Dalet. "We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters
and waiters" Uri Lubrani, PM Ben-Gurion's special adviser on Arab Affairs, 1960. From "The Arabs in Israel" by Sabri Jiryas.
20. "There are some who believe that the non-Jewish population, even in a high percentage, within our borders will be more effectively under our
surveillance; and there are some who believe the contrary, i.e., that it is easier to carry out surveillance over the activities of a neighbor than over those of a
tenant. [I] tend to support the latter view and have an additional argument:...the need to sustain the character of the state which will henceforth be
Jewish...with a non-Jewish minority limited to 15 percent. I had already reached this fundamental position as early as 1940 [and] it is entered in my diary."
Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Agency's Colonization Department. From Israel: an Apartheid State by Uri Davis, p.5.
21. "Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...
Everything we don't grab will go to them." Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet
Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.
22. "It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of
these is that there is no Zionism,colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." Yoram Bar Porath,
Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.
23. "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be
carried out discreetly and circumspectly." Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine,Complete Diaries,
June 12, 1895 entry.
neighbors here, but it seems as if at a distance of a few hundred meters away, there are people who do not belong to our continent, to our world, but
actually belong to a different galaxy." Israeli president Moshe Katsav. The Jerusalem Post, May 10, 2001
2. "The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more".... Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28,
2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000
3. " [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs." Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts". New
Statesman, 25 June 1982.
4. "The Palestinians" would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." " Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a
speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988
5. "When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan,
Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.
6. "How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.
7. "There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed." Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969
8. "The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was
born and developed after the war." Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972.
9. David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their
country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler,
Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by
Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.
9a. Ben Gurion also warned in 1948 : "We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do return." Assuring his fellow Zionists that
Palestinians will never come back to their homes. "The old will die and the young will forget."
10. "We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of
General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.
11. "Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American
pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." - Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon
Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio. (Certainly the FBI's cover-up of the Israeli spy ring/phone tap scandal suggests that Mr. Sharon may not have been
joking.
12. "We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall
use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours." Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces - Gad Becker,
Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.
13. "We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return" David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, 18 July 1948, quoted in Michael Bar
Zohar's Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet, Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.
15. "We should prepare to go over to the offensive. Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem
regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate
Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai." David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff.
From Ben- Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.
16. "We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." Israel
Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum"
17. "Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because
geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in
the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country
that did not have a former Arab population." Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969.
18. "We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion
waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'" Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23
October 1979.
19. Rabin's description of the conquest of Lydda, after the completion of Plan Dalet. "We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters
and waiters" Uri Lubrani, PM Ben-Gurion's special adviser on Arab Affairs, 1960. From "The Arabs in Israel" by Sabri Jiryas.
20. "There are some who believe that the non-Jewish population, even in a high percentage, within our borders will be more effectively under our
surveillance; and there are some who believe the contrary, i.e., that it is easier to carry out surveillance over the activities of a neighbor than over those of a
tenant. [I] tend to support the latter view and have an additional argument:...the need to sustain the character of the state which will henceforth be
Jewish...with a non-Jewish minority limited to 15 percent. I had already reached this fundamental position as early as 1940 [and] it is entered in my diary."
Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Agency's Colonization Department. From Israel: an Apartheid State by Uri Davis, p.5.
21. "Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...
Everything we don't grab will go to them." Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet
Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.
22. "It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of
these is that there is no Zionism,colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." Yoram Bar Porath,
Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.
23. "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be
carried out discreetly and circumspectly." Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine,Complete Diaries,
June 12, 1895 entry.
For more information:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com
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Hmmmm ... how is posting anyone's quotes make you anything? You can post Hitler quotes to show he was an asshole, doesn't make you a Nazi. "Daryle" is a fucking idiot.
I read the Rabbi Lerner article the other day wherein he describes himelf as part of the Zionist-left - Zionists opposed to the occupation and Israeli government policies but not Israels existence as a nation.
Seems to me that these people who throw around all-inclusive condemnations of Zionists like so many hand-grenades don't really care about Palestinians. All they want to do is smear the reputation of anything Jewish.
So I have a question for all the anti-Zionists: How do you fit Lerner and the Zionist left into your world view?
Seems to me that these people who throw around all-inclusive condemnations of Zionists like so many hand-grenades don't really care about Palestinians. All they want to do is smear the reputation of anything Jewish.
So I have a question for all the anti-Zionists: How do you fit Lerner and the Zionist left into your world view?
The question is, are there are nations who welcome an Israel that isn't ethnic supremacist? No? Ok then, I rest my case.
As for saying things like "Zioinism = Jews", this is absolutely juvenile. Are all Germans Nazis? Since you don't like Nazis (I'm presuming!) does this mean you have to be an "anti-germanite?"
As for saying things like "Zioinism = Jews", this is absolutely juvenile. Are all Germans Nazis? Since you don't like Nazis (I'm presuming!) does this mean you have to be an "anti-germanite?"
Do you believe that all Zionists are alike? If so, then Rabbi Lerner must be your enemny right?
He is a Zionist.
He is a Zionist.
but he should at least try to define his interpretation of the the identity shell-game before categorizing himself as a zionist.
--"Seems to me that these people who throw around all-inclusive condemnations of Zionists like so many hand-grenades don't really care about Palestinians. All they want to do is smear the reputation of anything Jewish."
Bullshit. This is just the same old smear tactic. I've seen Palestinians on the ground being kicked in the face by Israelis, peaceful Palestinian demonstrators being viciously attacked by Israeli "police," settlers abducting a young Palestinian girl screaming, soldiers one on each side of another Palestinian girl leading her away (one of the soldiers smiling from ear to ear), soldiers patiently breaking the bones of Palestinians on the ground who do not dare resist, a soldier taking full swing at a young Palestinian girl without pulling his punch, a soldier knocking to the pavement some young women who were running away, soldiers abducting a young man while his mother hysterically screams and is held back by other Palestinians, soldiers shooting Palestinians in cold blood, jets firing into numerous crowded apartment buildings in Lebanon collapsing many of them on the top of the heads of their occupants, a beautifully manicured hand of a Lebanese female sticking out of one of those collapsed apartment buildings.
Those are the things that drive me to put so much time and energy trying to stop it. This has nothing to do with any "hatred of Jews." This is an attempt to right wrongs and subdue a rogue state that is out of control and has the backing of the world's only superpower -- my own country. I don't want blood on my hands for things Israel does with my tax money. Why is it that those that accuse everyone of anti-Semitism cannot understand this?
Actually, I think it is more sinister than that. The charge of anti-Semitism is less of a description than it is a smear tactic. Since Israel's atrocities are indefensible and unjustifiable, the only thing a supporter of Israel can do is smear his/her opponents. That's always easier than trying to debate them as a serious debate could bring down the entire house of cards upon which Israel's existence is founded.
As for Rabbi Lerner. He appears to be a nice guy. But I don't think you can take a compromise position when it comes to *equality* and justice. Is it just for the Jewish homeland to exist on top of what was once the Palestinian homeland which had to be destroyed to make way for Israel. It is not hateful to insist that all people in Israel be treated equally and that Palestinians not be discriminated against merely because they are not of the right ethnicity. In fact this is absolutely anti-hate. To believe that Palestinians should be treated inferiorly simply because they are not Jewish is racist -- there is no getting around that. Exceptions in terms of *equality for all* cannot be made. Some principles are just not up for compromise. I think Rabbi Lerner is probably a nice guy but as a Zionist he still subscribes to that belief that Jews in Israel ought to be treated specially -- with the corollary that Christian and Muslim Palestinians are necessarily treated as inferiors. This is racist and there is no way to get around that. I'm not a racist for pointing this out. I'm anti-racist. I do not see why I should keep paying for what is essentially an Apartheid state little different from South Africa.
To call my position hatred of Jews is just a smear tactic to get others to discount what I have to say.
As Noam Chomsky put it, "whoever slings the mud always wins. If someone calls you an anti-Semite, what are you supposed to say -- 'no, I'm not an anti-Semite'?"
Bullshit. This is just the same old smear tactic. I've seen Palestinians on the ground being kicked in the face by Israelis, peaceful Palestinian demonstrators being viciously attacked by Israeli "police," settlers abducting a young Palestinian girl screaming, soldiers one on each side of another Palestinian girl leading her away (one of the soldiers smiling from ear to ear), soldiers patiently breaking the bones of Palestinians on the ground who do not dare resist, a soldier taking full swing at a young Palestinian girl without pulling his punch, a soldier knocking to the pavement some young women who were running away, soldiers abducting a young man while his mother hysterically screams and is held back by other Palestinians, soldiers shooting Palestinians in cold blood, jets firing into numerous crowded apartment buildings in Lebanon collapsing many of them on the top of the heads of their occupants, a beautifully manicured hand of a Lebanese female sticking out of one of those collapsed apartment buildings.
Those are the things that drive me to put so much time and energy trying to stop it. This has nothing to do with any "hatred of Jews." This is an attempt to right wrongs and subdue a rogue state that is out of control and has the backing of the world's only superpower -- my own country. I don't want blood on my hands for things Israel does with my tax money. Why is it that those that accuse everyone of anti-Semitism cannot understand this?
Actually, I think it is more sinister than that. The charge of anti-Semitism is less of a description than it is a smear tactic. Since Israel's atrocities are indefensible and unjustifiable, the only thing a supporter of Israel can do is smear his/her opponents. That's always easier than trying to debate them as a serious debate could bring down the entire house of cards upon which Israel's existence is founded.
As for Rabbi Lerner. He appears to be a nice guy. But I don't think you can take a compromise position when it comes to *equality* and justice. Is it just for the Jewish homeland to exist on top of what was once the Palestinian homeland which had to be destroyed to make way for Israel. It is not hateful to insist that all people in Israel be treated equally and that Palestinians not be discriminated against merely because they are not of the right ethnicity. In fact this is absolutely anti-hate. To believe that Palestinians should be treated inferiorly simply because they are not Jewish is racist -- there is no getting around that. Exceptions in terms of *equality for all* cannot be made. Some principles are just not up for compromise. I think Rabbi Lerner is probably a nice guy but as a Zionist he still subscribes to that belief that Jews in Israel ought to be treated specially -- with the corollary that Christian and Muslim Palestinians are necessarily treated as inferiors. This is racist and there is no way to get around that. I'm not a racist for pointing this out. I'm anti-racist. I do not see why I should keep paying for what is essentially an Apartheid state little different from South Africa.
To call my position hatred of Jews is just a smear tactic to get others to discount what I have to say.
As Noam Chomsky put it, "whoever slings the mud always wins. If someone calls you an anti-Semite, what are you supposed to say -- 'no, I'm not an anti-Semite'?"
Norman Finkelstein:
"If Israelis want people to stop comparing them to Nazis, they should stop behaving like Nazis."
'Nuff said!
"If Israelis want people to stop comparing them to Nazis, they should stop behaving like Nazis."
'Nuff said!
Rabbi Lerner is a very nice man, and I believe he is also quite courageous. I admire his many projects that work for peace and justice.
However, he does say things that indicate that he thinks Jews are more "special" than other people and even though he criticizes that Jews that are so into materialistic things and blindly hate Palestinians, he implies that Jews that are like that are like WASPS, and not behaving as true Jews who are supposed to have a "different ethos", thus imply that just because one is Jewish, one has the obligation to have higher standards than anyone else. I believe we should all have high standards regardless of our religion, race or sex. Or even if someone is atheistic, one should still have high standards, and respect for all life and all humans.
Also Rabbi Lerner believes in the two-state solution, which although it is better than the current situation, falls short of being the most humane solution, which is the one-country solution with equal rights for ALL regardless of religion, race or sex, with the right to return also of all the Palestinian refugees whose right is it to return to their ancestral homeland according to UN Resolutions, International Law and world opinion.
I know a couple people who totally believe in equal rights for all in Palestine-Israel, and work hard for it, who call themselves Zionists.... although that is confusing, I assume it to mean that to them Zionism just means Jews can live peacefully with Palestinians as equals in a joint homeland. But in reality, Zionism has always been manifested in a Jewish supremacist state, which entails racism and ethnic cleansing therefore Zionism should be abandoned.
If say American Jews want to think of Israel-Palestine as their spiritual homeland, that would be fine only if they are willing to accept Palestinians as equals and with equal rights in every way to Jews, with regards to everything, and it would not be a Jewish supremacist state, but rather a secular, democracy, just like we have here in America. And please don't say we don't have a better democracy than Israel here! Do you see tanks in the streets here demolishing indigenous people's homes, denying them the same rights to buy land, discriminating against a people in everyway with checkpoints, roadblocks, etc., trying to steal their land, or to vote in a government that is not a theocracy? We do NOT have ethnic cleansing here! And our politicians would never dare speak about ANYONE the way the Israelis speak about Palestinians all the time in the news and everywhere.
However, he does say things that indicate that he thinks Jews are more "special" than other people and even though he criticizes that Jews that are so into materialistic things and blindly hate Palestinians, he implies that Jews that are like that are like WASPS, and not behaving as true Jews who are supposed to have a "different ethos", thus imply that just because one is Jewish, one has the obligation to have higher standards than anyone else. I believe we should all have high standards regardless of our religion, race or sex. Or even if someone is atheistic, one should still have high standards, and respect for all life and all humans.
Also Rabbi Lerner believes in the two-state solution, which although it is better than the current situation, falls short of being the most humane solution, which is the one-country solution with equal rights for ALL regardless of religion, race or sex, with the right to return also of all the Palestinian refugees whose right is it to return to their ancestral homeland according to UN Resolutions, International Law and world opinion.
I know a couple people who totally believe in equal rights for all in Palestine-Israel, and work hard for it, who call themselves Zionists.... although that is confusing, I assume it to mean that to them Zionism just means Jews can live peacefully with Palestinians as equals in a joint homeland. But in reality, Zionism has always been manifested in a Jewish supremacist state, which entails racism and ethnic cleansing therefore Zionism should be abandoned.
If say American Jews want to think of Israel-Palestine as their spiritual homeland, that would be fine only if they are willing to accept Palestinians as equals and with equal rights in every way to Jews, with regards to everything, and it would not be a Jewish supremacist state, but rather a secular, democracy, just like we have here in America. And please don't say we don't have a better democracy than Israel here! Do you see tanks in the streets here demolishing indigenous people's homes, denying them the same rights to buy land, discriminating against a people in everyway with checkpoints, roadblocks, etc., trying to steal their land, or to vote in a government that is not a theocracy? We do NOT have ethnic cleansing here! And our politicians would never dare speak about ANYONE the way the Israelis speak about Palestinians all the time in the news and everywhere.
If American Jews can go over to live in the utopian one-state soluton, then American Christians, and so on, should also be able to go there and live if they want. Hey, we pay for it! Obviously, I believe the indigenous Palestinians and Jews who have lived there for decades and who are willing to live as equals are the true citizens. But I think it's absurd for American Jews or any other Jews from around the world to think they have a right to just plunk themselves down there with out proper procedures, just as if someone from England wanted to move here or what ever. In other words, as Palestine-Israel has always been multicultural, it's not fair for just Jews to get special treatment there or anywhere else for that matter. We are all part of the same family. Equal rights for all, regardless of religion, race or sex.
And guess who owns the New York Post. Ariel Sharon's good friend the media mogul Rupert Murdoch.
see:
http://media.guardian.co.uk/presspublishing/story/0,7495,547296,00.html
Or
http://www.15minutesmagazine.com/archives/Issue%2035/events_0204-06.htm
excerpt below:
Murdoch told of the time he took a group of editors from New York and London for a weekend at Ariel Sharon’s ranch. Sharon took them on a bird’s-eye tour of Israel aboard a helicopter gunship, flying over the Golan Heights, West Bank and settlements.
“We saw the vulnerability of the country,” Murdoch said.
“Not all New York newspapers feel the cause of Israel is all the news that’s fit to print,” he added.
Gov. George Pataki praised the publisher: “There is no newspaper in the U.S. more supportive of Israel than the New York Post.”
see:
http://media.guardian.co.uk/presspublishing/story/0,7495,547296,00.html
Or
http://www.15minutesmagazine.com/archives/Issue%2035/events_0204-06.htm
excerpt below:
Murdoch told of the time he took a group of editors from New York and London for a weekend at Ariel Sharon’s ranch. Sharon took them on a bird’s-eye tour of Israel aboard a helicopter gunship, flying over the Golan Heights, West Bank and settlements.
“We saw the vulnerability of the country,” Murdoch said.
“Not all New York newspapers feel the cause of Israel is all the news that’s fit to print,” he added.
Gov. George Pataki praised the publisher: “There is no newspaper in the U.S. more supportive of Israel than the New York Post.”
I would just say that it is not about Jews. It's about Zionists. There are many principled people of Jewish descent that stand squarely against Zionism: Israel Shamir, Noam Chomsky, Alfred Lilienthal, Lenni Brenner just to name a few. To say that it's about Jews is extremely unfair to these people and Jews who do not give nickel one to Israel. And it is prejudiced.
On the other hand there are plenty of nutty supporters of Israel in this country who are not Jewish: The Christian right (which also happens to be secretly anti-Semitic), many Christian liberals (Al Gore, Bill Clinton, Dick Armey, etc.).
It is extremely important to keep these distinctions in mind and not become prejudiced against all Jews. This is about Zionists (not all of whom are of Jewish descent).
On the other hand there are plenty of nutty supporters of Israel in this country who are not Jewish: The Christian right (which also happens to be secretly anti-Semitic), many Christian liberals (Al Gore, Bill Clinton, Dick Armey, etc.).
It is extremely important to keep these distinctions in mind and not become prejudiced against all Jews. This is about Zionists (not all of whom are of Jewish descent).
You haven't been paying close attention to the discussion. Rabbi Lenner IS a Zionist, part of the "Zionist left" as he calls it. By flatly condemning Zionism and Zionists you have also condemned the man you just praised.
How do you explain the contradiction?
How do you explain the contradiction?
There are some, a very few, Jews who believe in exactly equal rights for Jews and Palestinian (Muslims & Christians) who also call themselves Zionists.
However Zionism most generally currently means a Jewish supremacist state in Palestine-Israel.
As such, Zionism is to be condemned. I trust that Rabbi Lerner, even if he is for the two-state solution, would not be unhappy with the completely secular, democratic one-state solution with equal rights for all including all the Palestinian refugees, because he is a man of peace, even if he does cling to aspects of superiority as "Jews should have a higher ethnos".
Truthfully, I think American Jews' relationship to Israel should be about the same as American Roman Catholics' relationship to the Vatican. As an American Catholic, I have made the pilgrimage to the Vatican, and I love Italy, and wouldn't mind living there for a while, but I have no desire to become an Italian citizen. I am happy to be an American citizen, even in these very trying times. Likewise, I think American Jews should be able to go to Palestine-Israel for pilgrimages and maybe even live there for a while, but not as a citizen, unless they want to give up their American citizenship. I don't think there should be an automatic citizenship for Jews in Israel just because they are Jewish! This is discriminatory and entails ethnic cleansing of the indegenous people the Palestinians, because they are not the "right" religion. Therefore, I think American Jews should forget about thinking of Israel as anything more than perhaps a spiritual homeland, but not literally. American Jews should think of only America as their real homeland, and forget about the homeland doctrine of Zionism in Israel. Especially when it is an racist apartheid country and the US taxpayers are being forced to support it without our say in the matter.
However Zionism most generally currently means a Jewish supremacist state in Palestine-Israel.
As such, Zionism is to be condemned. I trust that Rabbi Lerner, even if he is for the two-state solution, would not be unhappy with the completely secular, democratic one-state solution with equal rights for all including all the Palestinian refugees, because he is a man of peace, even if he does cling to aspects of superiority as "Jews should have a higher ethnos".
Truthfully, I think American Jews' relationship to Israel should be about the same as American Roman Catholics' relationship to the Vatican. As an American Catholic, I have made the pilgrimage to the Vatican, and I love Italy, and wouldn't mind living there for a while, but I have no desire to become an Italian citizen. I am happy to be an American citizen, even in these very trying times. Likewise, I think American Jews should be able to go to Palestine-Israel for pilgrimages and maybe even live there for a while, but not as a citizen, unless they want to give up their American citizenship. I don't think there should be an automatic citizenship for Jews in Israel just because they are Jewish! This is discriminatory and entails ethnic cleansing of the indegenous people the Palestinians, because they are not the "right" religion. Therefore, I think American Jews should forget about thinking of Israel as anything more than perhaps a spiritual homeland, but not literally. American Jews should think of only America as their real homeland, and forget about the homeland doctrine of Zionism in Israel. Especially when it is an racist apartheid country and the US taxpayers are being forced to support it without our say in the matter.
Lerner's stance is similar to the 'peace camp' in Israel. They want the occupation to work quietly, without a lot of bloodshed or publicity. It's a kinder, gentler form of Zionism but it's still exclusionary in that it believes all the land there should be for the sole use of Jews and Jews only -- not to mention the unequal rights between Jews and non-Jews inherent in such a system.
That being said, Michael Lerner's stance is still better than that of full-fledged Zionists (of which the nutty Christian Fundamentalists are a part).
I think Noam Chomsky (who is anti-Zionist at this point) put it best:
"As far as the ‘peace’ camp in Israel is concerned, well, I don’t have to tell you that this term is used rather loosely. A lot of the people in the peace camp are kind of like American liberals. They want the Israeli occupation to work quietly, without killing too many people. That is called the peace camp. I mean, I can read a journal, like say Israel Horizons, which is the publication of the Meretz Party in the United States. Meretz is the kind of end of the extreme dovish party. I just happened to look at their last issue a couple of days ago. I mean, it’s the peace camp, in the sense that the New York Times was the peace camp in Vietnam in 1969. You know, it’s getting out of hand, it’s too bloody, they deny everything that is happening, and so on. We are very familiar with this. There are people who are authentically committed to justice - that would easily fit in this auditorium. It’s not all that different here or in other countries."
-Noam Chomsky
http://web.media.mit.edu/~nitin/mideast/chomsky_qa.html
----------------------------------
There is a video of this very interesting speech here:
http://web.media.mit.edu/~nitin/mideast/chomsky.html
Noam Chomsky is an impartial and unbiased source for information on this conflict. The only reason he might come across as non-impartial is because the discussion on this conflict has become so skewed in favor of Israel that a true impartial analysis naturally *appears* biased. If the American people were regularly allowed to see images of what has been done to the Palestinian people (not to mention the people of Lebanon), average Americans might not be so enthused about handing over their tax dollars to the state of Israel.
That being said, Michael Lerner's stance is still better than that of full-fledged Zionists (of which the nutty Christian Fundamentalists are a part).
I think Noam Chomsky (who is anti-Zionist at this point) put it best:
"As far as the ‘peace’ camp in Israel is concerned, well, I don’t have to tell you that this term is used rather loosely. A lot of the people in the peace camp are kind of like American liberals. They want the Israeli occupation to work quietly, without killing too many people. That is called the peace camp. I mean, I can read a journal, like say Israel Horizons, which is the publication of the Meretz Party in the United States. Meretz is the kind of end of the extreme dovish party. I just happened to look at their last issue a couple of days ago. I mean, it’s the peace camp, in the sense that the New York Times was the peace camp in Vietnam in 1969. You know, it’s getting out of hand, it’s too bloody, they deny everything that is happening, and so on. We are very familiar with this. There are people who are authentically committed to justice - that would easily fit in this auditorium. It’s not all that different here or in other countries."
-Noam Chomsky
http://web.media.mit.edu/~nitin/mideast/chomsky_qa.html
----------------------------------
There is a video of this very interesting speech here:
http://web.media.mit.edu/~nitin/mideast/chomsky.html
Noam Chomsky is an impartial and unbiased source for information on this conflict. The only reason he might come across as non-impartial is because the discussion on this conflict has become so skewed in favor of Israel that a true impartial analysis naturally *appears* biased. If the American people were regularly allowed to see images of what has been done to the Palestinian people (not to mention the people of Lebanon), average Americans might not be so enthused about handing over their tax dollars to the state of Israel.
--"I trust that Rabbi Lerner, even if he is for the two-state solution, would not be unhappy with the completely secular, democratic one-state solution with equal rights for all including all the Palestinian refugees, because he is a man of peace..."
Though I don't know Lerner's exact views, I suspect the above statement might be correct. Lerner is a man of peace (believing in a two-state solution) but he might very well not be opposed to a two-state solution in which Palestinians were treated as equals just as happened with South Africa.
Though I don't know Lerner's exact views, I suspect the above statement might be correct. Lerner is a man of peace (believing in a two-state solution) but he might very well not be opposed to a two-state solution in which Palestinians were treated as equals just as happened with South Africa.
"but he might very well not be opposed to a two-state solution in which Palestinians were treated as equals just as happened with South Africa"
That should read:
but he might very well not be opposed to a ONE-state solution in which Palestinians were treated as equals just as happened with South Africa
That should read:
but he might very well not be opposed to a ONE-state solution in which Palestinians were treated as equals just as happened with South Africa
--"However, alot of Jewish people were born there now, they've got every right to stay. They don't have any right at all to go around killing Palestinians, though."
Right.
That's why I believe the one-state solution is the best non-racist solution. Jews who were born there can stay where they are while Arabs who were kicked out would have the right to return to their homeland -- the homeland of their ancestors. Even Jewish settlers would be able to stay right where they are if they so desire. That's a win-win situation for everyone -- unless you are racist and believe Jews should have superior rights over everyone else there.
This is no different than what happened in South Africa -- except that we aid Israel and never aided South Africa but instead boycotted it. That's why it's so important to get the word out. It is way past time to put this perpetual world crisis to rest and give the victims of Israel some justice and reparations -- even if this means being in direct opposition to Zionism.
Right.
That's why I believe the one-state solution is the best non-racist solution. Jews who were born there can stay where they are while Arabs who were kicked out would have the right to return to their homeland -- the homeland of their ancestors. Even Jewish settlers would be able to stay right where they are if they so desire. That's a win-win situation for everyone -- unless you are racist and believe Jews should have superior rights over everyone else there.
This is no different than what happened in South Africa -- except that we aid Israel and never aided South Africa but instead boycotted it. That's why it's so important to get the word out. It is way past time to put this perpetual world crisis to rest and give the victims of Israel some justice and reparations -- even if this means being in direct opposition to Zionism.
The lessons of the Holocaust seemed to have been lost on those that dispossessed Palestinians to create a homeland for themselves on top of the Palestinians' homeland.
Why should Palestinians -- who had nothing whatsoever to do with the Holocaust -- be punished for it? If you want to punish someone for the Holocaust, maybe you should have taken a part of Bavaria?
And why should I and other Americans pay for this. What do we get from aiding Israel to the tune of billions annually (probably $14 Billion this year alone) other than the indignation and righteous anger of a good portion of the world's population? The US government issues endless blather about terrorism and Israel's security while totally ignoring Israel's on going 54 year long terror campaign against the Palestinians and their neighbors. The US government and media support genocidal sanctions against Iraq (which resulted in the deaths of two million people -- 700,000 of which were children) because Iraq may have a toothpick somewhere, and completely ignore Israel's atrocities and stockpiles of nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons -- not to mention its conventional capability we have given them free of charge (tanks, helicopters, jet fighters, guns, etc.). This is not lost on the Arabs in the region or Europe or any other part of the rest of the world for that matter.
Where are your equal cries about the on going genocide in Iraq and the possible war that might kill even more?
Using the Holocaust to try to silence people about the Israel/Palestine issue and the blind, unconditional support of our government for Israel is not going to work anymore. And those who try to make this link should think twice because they are blackening the memory of all those who were murdered by using that to further an unjust cause.
Why should Palestinians -- who had nothing whatsoever to do with the Holocaust -- be punished for it? If you want to punish someone for the Holocaust, maybe you should have taken a part of Bavaria?
And why should I and other Americans pay for this. What do we get from aiding Israel to the tune of billions annually (probably $14 Billion this year alone) other than the indignation and righteous anger of a good portion of the world's population? The US government issues endless blather about terrorism and Israel's security while totally ignoring Israel's on going 54 year long terror campaign against the Palestinians and their neighbors. The US government and media support genocidal sanctions against Iraq (which resulted in the deaths of two million people -- 700,000 of which were children) because Iraq may have a toothpick somewhere, and completely ignore Israel's atrocities and stockpiles of nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons -- not to mention its conventional capability we have given them free of charge (tanks, helicopters, jet fighters, guns, etc.). This is not lost on the Arabs in the region or Europe or any other part of the rest of the world for that matter.
Where are your equal cries about the on going genocide in Iraq and the possible war that might kill even more?
Using the Holocaust to try to silence people about the Israel/Palestine issue and the blind, unconditional support of our government for Israel is not going to work anymore. And those who try to make this link should think twice because they are blackening the memory of all those who were murdered by using that to further an unjust cause.
If I were to learn Martian, would this make me a Martian?
According to the third descriptic term of Semite, this describes illogically a Semite as anyone speaking a semitic language. The ADL had to dig pretty deep in adopting this label in 1919.
The majority of Zionists are Ashkenazi, these are NOT Semites, but in fact Khazars. So tell me just who are the real anti-Semites.
According to the third descriptic term of Semite, this describes illogically a Semite as anyone speaking a semitic language. The ADL had to dig pretty deep in adopting this label in 1919.
The majority of Zionists are Ashkenazi, these are NOT Semites, but in fact Khazars. So tell me just who are the real anti-Semites.
That's awfully racist of Japan.... the don't let non-Japanese be citizens.
I wonder why no one protests this?
I wonder why no one protests this?
Religion has nothing to do with anything...it's corrupt people and governments that want POWER. I am against Zionism (murdering innocent people) as I am against war with Iraq for control of oil. It's BS and frankly, I'm tired of it. Why don't we get it over with and just nuke eachother...that would be a good pissing contest....destroy the planet....get it over with
Oh, it's so fashionable to blame Israel. People forget that only 60 years ago, there was rampant anti-semitism and a worldwide movement to kill all the Jews - 6 million were murdered. Why shouldn't Jews want a homeland where they don't have to fear being slaughtered? Alias: You talk about murdering innocent people? Think about that. And when you're in a cafe in Israel and a suicide bomber decides to blow you up because you're Jewish, maybe you'll change your stance on who is "murdering innocent people." I find some of the comments on here very worrying. There are Zionist *extremists*, and these are probably the ones you are angry with, but that doesn't mean Zionism is bad.
You think Zionism is about power? Again, a fashionable statement, we all love to be so left in this postmodern era, yet it's complete nonsense. Zionism is about having a homeland so that your country doesn't decide to kill all of the Jews living in it.
And to the original poster: Go read the history books - with its surrounding nations trying to drive Israel into the sea all the time, it's no wonder those quotes were said.
You think Zionism is about power? Again, a fashionable statement, we all love to be so left in this postmodern era, yet it's complete nonsense. Zionism is about having a homeland so that your country doesn't decide to kill all of the Jews living in it.
And to the original poster: Go read the history books - with its surrounding nations trying to drive Israel into the sea all the time, it's no wonder those quotes were said.
> Zionism is about having a homeland so that your country doesn't decide to kill all of the Jews living in it.
Far from creating a haven for Jews, Zionism has created a death trap. Israel is the only place on earth where Jews are routinely murdered, solely because they are Jews. Zionism has failed. Switch to plan B.
Far from creating a haven for Jews, Zionism has created a death trap. Israel is the only place on earth where Jews are routinely murdered, solely because they are Jews. Zionism has failed. Switch to plan B.
"Far from creating a haven for Jews, Zionism has created a death trap. Israel is the only place on earth where Jews are routinely murdered, solely because they are Jews. Zionism has failed. Switch to plan B"
.
If Jews are being routinely murdered solely because they are Jews, what we have to do is to support the Jews in their struggle against terrorism.
What do the Palestinians want to make bombs for?
Are they going to stop their attacks?
__________________________________
Jan. 23, 2005 8:26
IDF discovers large bomb factory in Nablus
By MARGOT DUDKEVITCH
In what officers in the central command described as one of the largest finds in a number of months, security forces blew a large bomb factory in Raffidiya in Nablus Saturday night.
Soldiers from the Haruv battalion discovered the bomb stash in an apartment building in the West Bank city.
According to officials, soldiers found 25 kg (55 lbs.) of explosives that were ready for use, 125 liters of a substance used in the manufacture of bombs, and three explosives belts prepared for use upon the addition of explosive powder.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1106450581444&p=1078397702269
Why do I have to shut my mouth up? If I am mistaken, why don't you give the reasons why?
..or to renew strength?
"We [the Palestinians] need the hudna to enhance our political and diplomatic position vis- -vis Israel," said Khan Yunis-based Palestinian analyst Adli Sadiq Sadiq. "The whole world blames us for the violence. We need to stop the attacks and put the challenge in Israel's lap. We just hope that this hudna will not be as fragile as the last hudna."
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1106363887014
Presbyterian Church Defames Christianity
Dennis Prager (archive)
I have argued in this column that the greatest sin is committing evil in God's name. As bad as the evil committed by secularists, such as communists and Nazis, has ever been, the most grievous evil is that which is committed in the name of God. For not only do religious evils harm their victims, they also do lasting damage to God-based morality, which those of us who believe in God and religion consider the only viable antidote to evil.
That is why Islamic terror is so evil. Not only because it targets the most innocent of people for death and torture, but because it does so in the name of Allah and Islam.
Incredibly, The General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church (USA) joins the list of religious groups committing evil. In the name of Jesus, it has called for the economic strangulation of Israel. They have equated the Jewish state with South Africa during apartheid and called for a universal divestment from it.
The Presbyterians are the first Christian church to do this, and, ironically, the divestment campaign came the very week that the Roman Catholic Church signed a document equating anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism.
It takes a particularly virulent strain of moral idiocy and meanness to single out Israel, not Arafat's Palestinian Authority, or terror-supporting, death-fatwa-issuing Iran, or women-subjugating Saudi Arabia, for condemnation and economic ruin. One of the most decent societies, one of the most liberal democracies in the world, is fighting for its life against Islamic fascists who praise the Holocaust and publicly call for the annihilation of Israel -- and the Presbyterian Church calls for strangling Israel!
Apartheid state? This Goebbels-like Big Lie, concocted by the world's anti-Israel and anti-American Left and by those who want Israel destroyed, is now an official doctrine of the Presbyterian Church. Israel is a nation whose population is one-quarter non-Jewish Arab, with the same rights, including voting and its own political parties, as Jewish citizens; a nation whose second official language is Arabic, the language of those who wish to annihilate the Jewish country; a nation that occupies a tiny sliver of land known as the West Bank only because Jordan, overwhelmingly composed of Palestinians, invaded Israel in 1967 in order to destroy it and thereby lost its ownership of the West Bank.
As an American who fights to preserve Judeo-Christian values as America's primary value system and preserve Christianity as the specific American faith that embodies those values, I can only say this: the God that the 431 leaders of the Presbyterian Church worship is not my God, any more than the Allah of the Islamic fascists that Israel and America fight is my God.
The Bible that these Presbyterians read is not my Bible.
The religious values that these Presbyterians hold are not my religious values.
This is not a difference about immigration policy, affirmative action, taxation, bigger or smaller government, welfare policies, gun control, or a myriad of other moral issues over which decent, God-fearing people can disagree.
This is one of the morality-clarifying issues of our time. To single out Israel for economic strangulation while that good nation fights for its life is an act of such immorality that holding that view precludes one from the title "good" or "God-fearing," for if they are true to God, I am false to Him. If they are good, I who support Israel am bad. If their Bible teaches them to strangle Israel and support Yasser Arafat, I am guided by a different Bible.
They have drawn a line. It is now time for good people, Presbyterians specifically, Christians generally, to distance themselves vigorously and publicly from this morally sick church. And it is time, once again, for Jews to realize that the enemies of the Jews in our day are to be found on the Christian Left while their friends are far more often on the Christian Right.
Many serious Christians ask, "What Would Jesus Do?" If Jesus were here, he would probably be at Israeli hospitals comforting fellow Jews who were deliberately blinded, paralyzed and brain-damaged by Jew- and Christian-hating Palestinian terrorists. He would surely not be with the Jews' enemies, among whom are now the leaders of the Presbyterian Church, USA.
©2004 Creators Syndicate, Inc.
http://www.petahtikvah.com/PT/html/MELBROOKSONBEINGAJEW.htm
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