Most Liberal D-Sen. Wellstone Plane Shot Down, He Voted Against The War Powers Act

The plane wasn't "shot down". Eyewitnesses have reported bad weather in the area and it appears to have crashed for that reason. No reason lie.

Note, this is a brainstorm, based on what I know of the campaign. However, in these times we live in, such possibilities must, I feel, be considered and investigated (the FBI sure won't).

There were a lot of interesting things happening to Wellstone's campaign right before this "accident". There was the ?Virginia-based group with hidden sources of funding that poured huge amounts of ad-money into attacking Wellstone, more than would easily be raised without some identifiable source. Was there a CIA connection? Wellstone was also critical of the Bush "administration" and its war plans. The Bush "administration" also needed to make the Senate turn republican again. If it was capable of staging a coup in 2000, and starting an endless war, what was to stop it from taking out one senator and his family? This will fix the senate for Bush, allowing him to go for future all out war-- especially nuclear attacks on "axis of evil" nations (lots of new funding for that).

Let's start getting some sources.

I am very saddened by Wellstone's loss, and for his remaining family.

God is definitely a Republican.

icy rain and snow is, unfortunately, a known cause of accidents -- if ice forms up quickly on the wing's leading edge, then lift generation is severly hampered, the plane loses altitude in a hurry, and then....

same thing happened to a trio of early rockers and their puddle-jumper

We need more info on this and to post it to every IM site in the world, this is insane. Im a republican, but I can smell sh*t, something is off here and the truth must come out ! Just becase of this assasination a group of us republicans got together this morning and decided to vote all democratic in responce. While I don't agree with the left on much, I will say they are a hell of a lot more transparent than the GOP posers in power now. Im begining to doubt the idea of war as well...hmmm

Missouri Governor Mel Carnahan, who was sure to win reelection against republican candidate John Ashcroft, also died in a mysterious small plane crash right at the end of the election campaign season when there wasn't enough time to recruit another candidate. The dead governor Carnahan won at the polls despite the fact that he didn't exist any longer because the people of Missouri were already aware of Ashcroft's record, so Bush recruited him into his cabinet so that he could be inflicted on the whole country. Paul Wellstone was very high in the polls, and was even favored as a potential candidate for running for president with left liberal or green politics.

it happens to be best of us.

Missouri Governor Mel Carnahan, who was sure to win reelection against republican candidate John Ashcroft, also died in a mysterious small plane crash right at the end of the election campaign season when there wasn't enough time to recruit another candidate. The dead governor Carnahan won at the polls despite the fact that he didn't exist any longer because the people of Missouri were already aware of Ashcroft's record, so Bush recruited him into his cabinet so that he could be inflicted on the whole country. Paul Wellstone was very high in the polls, and was even favored as a potential candidate for running for president with left liberal or green politics. The control of senate by the democrats is very tenuous right now - they have only one more senator than the republicans. 'control' of the two houses, which is conferred by just having a narrow majority, gives a party disproportionate power. The controlling party decides on committee assignments and gets to set the agenda for the body. Usually, there is grid lock in government because the party of the president doesn't match that of the house of reps. and senate. There have only been a few scary moments in history when the president (who can veto legislation) and the houses all matched - one was during the beginning of the Reagan years. Can anyone remember other periods like this?

it happens to be best of us.

Reagan never had a matching Senate and House. The House didn't go Republican until 1994 and had been Democrat for the previous 40 years. Bush was the last President to have both houses until Jumpin' Jim Jeffords went Independent. Prior to that, Clinton had the House and Senate for his first 2 years.

The only course of action for people who want to redeem the life of Paul, is to vote democrat in the upcoming election.
He led in the polls and will not be forgotten in his death.
Lets remember his honor by voting for the democratic party.
truth be told, it matters not who is in office as the parties are identical... except for the late Paul, he stood his ground when it came to things that mattered!

Democrat, Republican .. good cop, bad cop. Don't be scammed. The Democrats are a greater threat because they are more insidious and much better at PR. The Republicans are like a PR-deficient version of the Democrats who are less capable of covering up their real intentions, and could even be regarded as less of a challenge to the peace and justice movement.
Remember that Clinton wanted to attack Iraq too and spent alot of time bombing Yugoslavian farmers with depleted uranium shells that are still causing death there.

"American for Job Security president Michael Dubke has refused to reveal the sources of the funding for this fall's attack ads against Wellstone -- nor for similar campaigns by the group against Democratic Senators Jean Carnahan and Tim Johnson, who are in tight races in Missouri and South Dakota, respectively. According to Dubke, his organization has "a very strong policy that we don't discuss our members." And elections laws do not appear to require him to do so...

http://thenation.com/thebeat/index.mhtml?bid=1&pid=128

http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=212489&group=webcast

yo indy kids. why hasnt this post been removed ?

http://www.skolnicksreport.com/shistory.html

What's the statistical liklihood of two members of the same party dying like this in the midwest in just the span of a couple of years?

The shot down or rigged idea seems right to me.

I think Wellstone will win - Americans may be sheep, but when someone dies like this for their cause, even sheep know what's gone down, and they resist.

If republicans didn't do this, they must be screaming right now - they're done for in that state.

I don't support the dems, but I supported many of the congressional individuals who stood against war in the past weeks. Wellstone voted for the patriot act . He wasn't perfect, but he stood up against war - he had to or the Green candidate would have siphoned off his vote! But he did the right thing a few weeks back.

I'll bet right now that he wins.

Possible Assassination of Wellstone
by Daniesha L. 3:18pm Fri Oct 25 '02 (Modified on 6:40pm Fri Oct 25 '02)


Come on, Minnesota. Whatever happened, happened in your state. Give us some info, please. I posting this to politely prod you.


BREAKING NEWS.

THE CREWS ON THE GROUND FOUND TWO LARGE SECTIONS OF PLANE. THE TAIL SECTION WAS INTACT. THE WEATHER DID NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE CRASH, SAID THE ON THE SCENE REPORTER.

Wolf Blitzer tried to correct her.

He said, The plane was flying into the storm of freezing rain, right?

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT WEATHER HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE CRASH.

The on-the-scene reporter stuck to her guns. Wonder how long she will have her job?

Is crashed plane, spit into to two parts more consistent with an explosion on the plane, or with a plane crashing due to weather difficulties?

CNN explains why Wellstone might have been assassinated.

One CNN anchor called Wellstone the most liberal Senator--- saying he was even more liberal than Ted Kennedy!!

He was called courageous, and spoken of as putting himself at risk for opposing the President when he voted against war. Not long ago, it appeared that Wellstone’s vote against the war would hurt his candidacy. Recent polling data indicated that this was not the case, and CNN did not discount the possibility that he was assassinated.

The death of Wellstone will enable the Republicans to gain control of the Senate.

Wellstone was called by CNN, a champion of worker rights, of national health care, and of parity for mental and health insurance for all citizens.

Could such a progressive stance, almost unheard of in the Senate, have incited a plot to assassinate him. He was called, the friend of the little guy, and of unions. He fought against international sex trafficking.

C-Span was hosting a live conference on the elections when the news broke. One spokesperson for the Republicans spoke of the sadness which Americans must feel at the death of Wellstone. Meanwhile, the face of this party operative betrayed no sadness whatsoever; rather he appeared very tranquil and almost pleased.

CNN spoke of the stances which Wellstone took in connection with great risks, great dangers, and personal courage, which he faced as a result of his contrarian positions. People can read between the lines. Wolf Blitzer, the cover man for CNN-- who always smoothes things over to put them in conformity with the establishment view-- read a list of many politicians who have died in plane crashes. Blitzer clearly wanted to establish this as a normal event, an accident, not due to any political machinations. However, Blitzers approach clearly contrasted with that of other anchors who spoke in detail of his risky, dangerous, and courageous stances, which could have had serious consequences from him. No CNN anchor has yet openly suggested assassination; but the implication has been near the surface. A number of aviation experts, following Blitzer, suggest that the pilots did not turn on the anti-ice. It was suggested that the work load on this flight must have been high, because the pilot had to turn on the anti-ice, and might have decided not to, to get to a higher altitude. One anchor suggested weather problems. Though independent journalists have said that the weather was normal.

The plane MIGHT have sat on the run way and accumulated ice, which was not cleaned off, said one so called expert. It appeared to me that they were clutching at straws. The flimsiness of official explanations must inevitably lead the thinking observer to consider the possibility of assassination.

Vermont Senator Patrick Leahy was asked to comment on Wellstone, in an interview on CNN, at 2:35 p.m.

Unlike others, he appeared very emotional, and upset. (Is he worried that he might be next on a list of possible targets, as well?)

Leahy said,

Whether you agreed with him politically, you had to like him. He was honest. He was not interested in the trappings of the power. He was not self interested. He was concerned about Health Care, the Environment, the Minimum Wage. He was committed.

Leahy was in tears, and had to pause, to collect himself.

Blitzer said, I can see you are all choked up. We all are. (Blitzer did not appear to be at all choked up or emotional). Blitzer said,

He was a committed man, who worked hard to advance his agenda.

Is that supposed to part of a eulogy? If Bush had died, would he not say, Bush was a man who worked hard for all Americans? Was Wellstone simply advancing HIS OWN AGENDA? A more charitable view would be, he was advancing the agenda of real working people, of people without health care coverage, the agenda of the laboring majority, working for substandard wages.



The plane which Wellstone flew was reported to be: Raytheon craft, A-100 model. Is there some irony here? Raytheon, more than almost any other company, would suffer huge profit losses, if the Wellstone anti-war stance comes to dominate national politics.

The tone on CNN had become maudlin by 2:45; Pete Dominici came on the air to speak about Wellstone. But there was silence. No tears, no choking voice. Just silence. Soon an aid came on to say the interview would not go forward. Pardon my skepticism, but is it just too difficult for Republicans to find anything good to say about Wellstone, other than: He fought for his agenda.


Another question: If Bush had died in a plane crash, would there not be immediate open speculation about the possibility of assassination? Wellstone held the balance in the Senate for the Democrats; he was as opposed to Bush policies as any Senator could be, in issues of war, health policy, and labor issues. His death has great political and social significance.

Political commentator, Bill Schneider, said,

Wellstone was admired because he stood on conviction. He was the voice of sixties idealism. He said the Democratic Party had lost his soul. He made a nationwide trip through poor areas in the late 90’s, JUST LIKE ROBERT KENNEDY DID.

Could the implication be any clearer? Kennedy was assassinated during his campaign against Nixon, in what remain suspicious circumstances. Commentators can not come out now, apparently, to suggest a deliberate murder of Senator Wellstone, but more than one anchor tiptoes around it.

The Republicans TARGETED Wellstone, said Sen. Pat Murray of Washington state.

So Wellstone was targeted. Of course, Murray was speaking of the deliberate targetting of the Wellstone campaign in Minnesota, by sending in huge amounts of funding to his opponent. However, the implication is once again clear. Wellstone was one of the most crucial political figures in



Bush gave the US a very, very brief statement, which concluded with the words,

May the good lord bless those who grieve.

Bush did not say that HE GRIEVED. His remarks were curt, and, in my view, insulting in their brevity.

By 3:00 p.m. another so called expert was brought on. He spoke almost exclusively of the crash as an accident. Did he slip when he said at one point, IF THIS IS FOUND TO BE AN ACCIDENT? He did not elaborate, but went on to discuss the cockpit voice recorder, the last contact with the FAA, and other details. (This was Bob Francis, with the FTAA).




w

Didn't he get anthrax in his mail about this time last year?

I think it's important to look at the earliest reports - from reporters on the scene, and various bit of eivdence that people see early on that will 'disspear' later, or get cut down in various ways. Already this debate about the ice has begun, even though the reporter on the scene said that the weather was not a factor and had to fight the CNN person on that. Over here I heard it was the 'icy' conditions that caused it, when, as these bits of info reveal, no one knows that.
- bov


weather
by ghost 5:52pm Fri Oct 25 '02

Cspan was airing the coverage of a Minneapolis TV station

They reported that at the time of the crash, visibilty was 3 to 4 miles, the ceiling was 200 to 400 feet, and the temperature was 34 degrees.

The weatherman on this station then plainly said that iceing only occurs when the temperature is between 28 and 31 degrees.

The only part of this that sounds dangerous to a plane would be the ceiling of 200 to 400 feet. However, other reports have indicated that the plane was on instrument approach. If the plane was approaching on instrument, then there would be no reason for the pilot to try to come down out of the clouds to see where he was.

Ie, this local Minneapolis TV station is basically saying that there was nothing in the weather at the time that should have contributed to a crash.
Warning!
by anon 5:59pm Fri Oct 25 '02

For god sakes people, please do ANYTHING to prevent Brooklynite Jew Norm Coleman from becoming a senator of your state! Focus all your energy on the defeat of Coleman. There's obviously more at stake here than any of us could have guessed.

fuck you Ajakk.
by Mepatt 6:00pm Fri Oct 25 '02

off the wall conspiracy theories and tin foil hats?

As stated in the article If Bush was killed in a plane crash on a CLEAR DAY the press would NOT suggest bad weather and would INSTANTLY start speculating about assassination and NO ONE would cry out that we need time to mourn -WE WOULD PROBABLY START CARPET BOMBING CIVILIANS IN SOME THRID WORLD COUNTRY.

and If not and investigation now, when?

lets wait another 15 years to investigate this -WHEN IT DOESNT MATTER ANYMORE.

I'm not convinced one way or another but shutting off your brain to possibilities just because of your BELIEFS is so stupid.

God, seriously indymedia is so retarded sometimes.
Pilot's Perspective
by Flyboy 6:37pm Fri Oct 25 '02

In response to ghost, temperature typically decreases by approximately 3 1/2 degrees F. with every 1,000' increase in altitude. Freezing rain presents the most treacherous flight conditions, with the possible exception of flying through severe thunderstorms. With a surface temperature of 34 degrees F., the airplane was probably descending through some very nasty icing conditions. The added weight of the ice would have required an increase in angle of attack to maintain flight. In addition, ice messes with the smooth airflow over the wing. If severe enough,with a fully loaded airplane, it's entirely possible that the angle of attack required to maintain flight would have exceeded the wing's critical angle of attack, meaning that the wing would no longer be generating lift, meaning that the aircraft would have rapidly lost altitude (stalled). If this happened close to the ground, there would have been to time to recover.

Another possibility is that one or both of the turbine engines ingested enough ice to make it flame out. Again, if this happened close to the ground, there would have been no time to recover.

This kind of accident is not all that rare, unfortunately.

MoveOn.org had accumulated over $600,000 to give to Wellstone and a mysterious organization was donating more than that to the opponent - if you were thinking of giving, now is probably the time.

If there is even a remote possibility that this was an assassination, it's important to show these f--kers that no one will win on the murder of someone else.

Wellstone for Senate
2341 University Ave West
Saint Paul, MN 55114

Phone: 651-310-9831
Fax: 651-646-8602

Mailing address:
P.O. Box 14377
Saint Paul, MN 55114

Email: paul [at] wellstone.org

yo indy children. why hasnt this post been removed ?

Don't you wish you could reach out and squash
all this loose talk? Ha!
Children indeed. There sure are a lot of us.
More of us than you and growing all the time.
We're getting pissed.

yo, sfimc kiddies, why havent you deleted this article ?

I'm not the one who's asking for this to be removed, but a comment is warranted.

Loose talk is all this is. And getting pissed, eh. A lot of you? Not really. "More of us than you"? Ha! "Children"? A reasonable conclusion given what's being said here. But those emotionally charged statements are not even the point. A plane crashed. It's a tragety. But saying this is a work of Wellstone's opposition? You guys are falling off the wagon. As if you needed another reason to lose credibility.

Yeah right. Like the evil democratss were responsible for Sen. Heinz's plane crash in 1991...

Yes a, if the remote possibility exists that this wasn't an accident, Wellstone himself would want us to be exposing it.

And of it were an accident, then what do you care? Go look at another thread and leave us alone.

Wow, is there anyone who's been on here any length of time that couldn't have called the reaction from the regular lefties on this one? Let's see, what's next? I got it! The NTSB report will be a doctored cover-up. That's a foregone conclusion, that's too easy. Oh, well. We'll just have to stay tuned in and find out.

All of these insta-conspiracy theories always target the US government and the Jews. They are being invented, preached, and peddled by a handful of extremist-libertarianish militia types who wish to overthrow the American government, as well as the old-fashioned tag-team of white supremacists and jew-haters.

Well, you can take your make-believe army with your pretend uniforms and childish oaths and march straight into the sea for all I care, because you obviously don't have the guts to use them they way McVeigh and Muhammad did.

The only conspiracy here is the one conducted by a few posers who try to pass off ridiculous charges behind the fascade of a self-congratulatory crowd. Why don't you tell us what silly little unit you belong to and how many home-made merit badges you have collected?

Anyway, have fun this weekend "practing manuevers" with the "grunts" -- just remember, always wear a condom.

What else do they have in their shallow lives?
Got to crank out static or no promotion.

The more static, the more worried they are.
They get insecure when the torch gets near.
VIVA WELLSTONE! May he never die in our hearts.
Now it's up to us.

They're realizing that they're going to lose Minn. and so they're attacking anyone dissenting from the official CNN version.

As someone else said, if Airforce One went down, would everyone just quietly go about their usual business? Assassination would be the first words out of every republican's mouth.

Sorry to hear of your impending loss of Minn. guys!

We're really freaking, man!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA

No, to look at this as a political victory, either Republican or Democrat, is sick. A man and his family died in a tragic way. I didn't agree with him, but I admired him for standing up for what he believed and certainly had wished he hadn't died. Some things rise above politics. bov I didn't think you could drop that low, but even you surprised me with that last one.

why is this article still up ?

Looking at the politcs of it is really sick isn't it? Just sick! Just as sick as anyone who questions 9/11 or JFK, or MLK . . . just sick! How inappropriate for anyone to question a TRAGEDY! It isn't allowed! If someone died it isn't allowed to question it or to look at motive! Wave your flag goddammit!

Of course it's an incredible loss - I've already addressed my own feelings about the tragedy in many other places.

Wellstone showed us all he approved of dissent by dissenting himself.

I say we honor what he stood for by going out and walking precincts, making phone calls, and doing the grunt work that helps good candidates succeed.

But sorry to hear of your loss in Minn guys!

can any of you sfimc 13 year olds explain why this article is still here ?

why should it be removed? Its just a silly news article, not like all that crazed anti-semitic stuff the conservatives keep spamming with like rabid weasels on speed jumping around cause they are too anal to get laid.

I posted (for archive) the NOAA weather reports. Go here:

http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=212421&group=webcast

See the three PDF's under my article (by "X").

Eveleth reported 33 deg.F on the ground at the time of the crash, so it's entirely possible that icing on the plane's wings happened (it's a little colder as you move higher up, and 33 deg.F is the ground temperature reported).

It's always wise to call into question EVERYTHING that is reported in the media. But it's also wise to look at solid evidence and move on to other questions when that is supported by the evidence. I doubt the NOAA weather data is incorrect or manipulated. So, focusing on the media's focus on the weather should be seen in that context. Read my article linked above for further commentary.

Daschle had Wellstone's plane shot down because the polls showed him losing the race and the Senate going over to the Meanie Hateful White Male Right Wing. The sympathy factor will allow some Dem to win the election, and he'll be a more obedient bitch to little Tommy than little Paulie ever was.

It certainly is a deep, dark, stinking plot.

What was the humidity?

It is sad that Paul Wellstone was assassinated, but he was not a progressive; he was a Democrat playing the "lesser evil" game to the hilt, making one good vote so people keep voting for him despite all his bad votes, thus, like all Democrats, keeping the Reds out of office. This con game is a reactionary, downward spiral. Wellstone voted for the Fascist "Patriot" Act on 10/26/01, which is being protested on 10/26/02; he voted for bombing Iraq in 1998; he voted against gay marriage; he voted against immigrants in 2001; he voted for Ariel Sharon this year; he voted for the resolution condemning the good 9th Circuit decision to toss the pledge of allegiance on the basis that it Constitutionally-mandated separation of Church and State. Wellstone has voted for just about everything that Bush wanted but since he was running for election at the time the anti-war vote came up, he joined with the others facing a tough re-election fight in voting against one war resolution. This is insulting. It is long overdue that everyone stop voting for the Democrat-Republicans. George War Bush will be stopped by mass movements; not by "lesser evil" Democrats like Paul Wellstone.

Oh, man, an article like this could ONLY be published on indymedia. Cripes, hasn't anyone here ever heard of Occam's Razor? The simplest explanation is probably the right one. Repeat after me: Elvis died in 1977. Apollo 11 was not a hoax. The Mossad was not responsible for the Sept. 11 attacks (sorry to rain on your may day parade, but the Mossad/4000 Jews theory doesn't make a lick of sense at all). And this plane crash was an accident. I seriously doubt that Dubya would go to all that trouble just to assassinate one senator he disagrees with. Come on guys, it's time to take off the tinfoil helmets.

The poor stupid conservative has not studied Occam's well enough to know it is only to be utilized once all evidence is in and no solution is to be had. You do not use Occam's at the beggining of a problem unless you are well and truly stupid nor do you substitute it for discovery of facts.

Yeah and one bullet can stop, turn and wait in the
air shattering bones when it decides to, then end up
looking like it was just made.
The only explanation to the assassination of a U.S.
president. Just ask Sen. Spector of Penn.

Jesse Ventura is right. And I still hate Hanoi Jane.

Jesse Ventura is right. The Dems did him in cause he was gonna lose.

Hmmm .. apparently Senators in other countries who are against fascist policies are also dying in plane crashes in the last few days, mysteriously enough. NO, NOT SUSPICIOUS AT ALL!

http://melbourne.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=36126&group=webcast

Really now. You people really don't believe any of this do you. Do YOU? I mean, it isn't as though Wellstone was an important Senator from California, he was even on the fringe of his own party. We all know that whoever replaces Wellstone on the ballot will get the pity vote. To bad the wife had to die, she'd be the logical choice. In any case, idiotic Minnesotans will now vote through emotion alone (waaaa!!!! obscure senator is DEAD..Vote Democrat!). The more I keep writing the more obvious it all is. The democratic party is the obvious assassin, just as we all KNOW the mob/CIA/BoyScout trp #666 killed JFK...

Other pilots in the area say that contrary to some media speculation there wasn't bad weather at the time, and that icing was not a problem.

I hate Hanoi Jane too but that does not stop the fact that the war was wrong .It does not stop the fact that Senator Wellstone was taken out.

Keyword: "probably"

Which is more likely...

1. A massive government conspiracy to murder a potentially outgoing Senator

- OR -

2. A lone anti-government extremist spreading spiteful propoganda

The answer is 2. That's my final answer Regis

Wellstone died because his plane malfunctioned. Tragic accident. No conspiracy. No lone wacko. Ok? Tragic accident. Period

Get lives.

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/10/1540465_comment.php#1540536

I thought Hillary did it

So far everyone's missed the point! Back in 1947 in Roswell NM, a UFO crashed. The technology has been closely guarded bt the Tri-lateral Commission. They control the world. From the UFO crash they have developed sophisticaled devices and wepons. The plane was shot down by a secret DEATH ray. None of us are safe. They also used a similar technology to steer the jetlines into the WTC. This was done to control all the world oil with the US in the drivers seat.

Dude I think they already ruled out the bad weather factor, visibility was at least two miles and the planes de-icing gear was working. You are most definitely lost out there somewhere in the twilite zone.

You know there was a statement made once that describes very nicely the way the american public is so blindly accepting Sen. Wellstone's crash as OK. That statement was made by Adolph Hitler, "How fortunate for those in power, that those they lead so blindly follow."
Congrats on a perfectly clear observation, you are oficially NOT a herd animal.
Peace