San Franciscans rally for a regime change in the US

he's about how I picture they might be (but add a beer gut and some camoflague that's worn night and day) . . . yelling belligerantly, putting on brass knuckles, threatening people, all alone . .

That guy is a classic Bush-style Patriotic Brownshirt.

haha, look at that vein popping out on his neck.

Hey man, am all for it!Keep up the good work.

Man, some people are really out there. The guy with the sign that reads "bomb the pentagon" is sick. The current admin is speaking in dangerous emotional symbols rather than legal discourse, and it is our responsibility to avoid that same pitfall. Facts are our friends. The notion of a romantic revolution died with communism. Support dialogue, not fanatacism.

Part of mature dialog is not calling people 'sick'

Nice to see pictures of the protestors, though I do question the legitimacy of the “Solo ProWar Protestor” because the image the picture portrays is too convenient for the posters article.

You ever get the feeling that when they tell you are surrounded, they are the most frightened?
People gather round, and start to throw your hand full of gravel into the death machine. Stand and speakout against the usermorons, for a start. It can grow from a grumble to a roar.

The word 'oligarchy' gets thrown around a lot. If it didn't work for Sparta, why would anyone believe our government would try it now? It'd be too easy to see the writing on the wall and the same thing that happened around 400 B.C. would happen again. Government bureaucrats are wasteful, but there not gonna cut their own throats.

Oligarchy being rule by a few people, in this case the wealthy (Plutocracy). The point being the same. It didn't work in Sparta. Who would be foolish enough to beleive it would work now? Not buying it.

I would be considered lower, lower middle class or semi-upper dirt poor and its working quite well for me.

No matter how you try to spin it, these protestors are still uneducated children trying to impress each other.

And it sounds like most of you are too.

And now that even the protestors know the Washington demonstrations were a complete failure, it's time to grow up, don't you think?

Sorry to hear you feel this jealousy about young people taking risks and having fun, nonviolently.

I'd suggest you go out and have some fun yourself, before the economy collapses and war engulfs the planet.

Sorry I upset you with the truth. Reality is hard for you all to deal with.

I hear a lot of warnings from left-wing members of the Leave Saddam Alone Coalition about the prospect of "another Vietnam," and often these critics seem actually to be HOPING for another quagmire-cum-defeat. Some of these people simply hate America, but others seem to long for the glorious days of the antiwar movement. (For an example of the latter see the Derrick Jackson column below.)

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/270/oped/A_replay_of_Vietnam_in_Iraq_+.shtml


I've previously noted some of the myriad differences between the conflict in Vietnam and the forthcoming one in Iraq. But there's also a difference between today's far left and the Vietnam era's that makes a coherent antiwar movement unlikely to emerge: The far left today is a purely reactionary movement.

As anyone who's attended an "antiglobalization" protest knows, the only thing uniting the left is its hatreds--of capitalism, America and Israel. You find at these events a menagerie of special interests promoting their own little causes. But the far left today, though it styles itself "progressive," has no coherent vision of how to make the world better--in sharp contrast with today's conservative internationalists, who favor the vigorous use of U.S. diplomatic and military force to expand democracy.

Loren Finkelstein, "a San Francisco yoga instructor and organizer for Mobilization for Global Justice," makes the point eloquently. He tells Bloomberg News Service that anticapitalist protests in Washington aim at "quarantining the IMF and World Bank, separating them and containing the disease they spread all around the world." This is a resistance movement, not a revolutionary one.

http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=Top%20World%20News&s1=blk,&s2=ad_right1_wi
ndex&tp=ad_topright_topworld&refer=topworld&T=markets_box.ht&bt=ad_position1_windex&
box=ad_box_all&tag=worldnews&middle=ad_frame2_windex&s=APZZa5xSqSU1GIFBy

(You must cut and paste this link for I do not wish to overrun the borders)


Whereas the far left is directionless today, it was not during Vietnam era. In those days, communism wasn't entirely a spent force, and it was still possible for the gullible or the fanatical to believe that Ho Chi Minh was on the right side. Nicaragua's Daniel Ortega was the left's last great Marxist hope, and while lefties still fawn nostalgically over Fidel Castro, no one seriously argues that his is the way of the future.

Leftists may side with Saddam, Osama and Hamas on the grounds that the enemy of my enemy is my friend, but all but the most addled realize that Islamofascism is anything but a progressive worldview. I could write a thousand words on this, but instead check out the picture below. It shows two young women at a Madrid protest, holding a sign that reads NO GUERRA ("No war"). The women are practically naked, except for bikinis made up to look like Hamas-style suicide belts. The message seems to be: Exterminating Jews is a real turn-on. Which, come to think of it, is the Palestinian Arab view too, since "martyrs" are supposed to be rewarded with an eternal orgy in paradise.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/020929/170/2cf6i.html


But fantasizing about blowing up Jews is hardly a tenable political program, and this picture actually illustrates the lack of common ground between the left and the Islamists. If these two señoritas showed that much skin anywhere in the Arab world, they'd be stoned to death in a New York minute.

If you think I’m exaggerating when I say the left has no coherent vision, here are some examples. The Daily Telegraph reported on a guy who planned to join an antiwar demonstration in London but isn't actually antiwar at all:

One of the marchers was 14-year-old Hussein Mohammed who was born in Iraq but came to London with his family seven years ago.

Hussein said that he was not actually opposed to an attack on Iraq as long as not too many civilians were killed. The teenager said that even American rule would be preferable to that imposed by Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.

He said: "I'm against Saddam because he doesn't have a heart for any people. I think he should be attacked. I'd rather have America than Saddam."
But the boy said that any war should be directly against Saddam's regime and not civilians.

http://portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/09/28/uwar.xml

The Chicago Sun-Times reports on antiglobalization protests in Washington:

Emily Jacobi, 19, of Indianapolis said she decided to become a protester after witnessing poverty in Cuba on a trip there as a student journalist.

''I recognize that I'm a capitalist. I'm a consumer,'' said Jacobi, an international studies student at American University. ''But realize something. We're not here just to disrupt. We're not just bored kids with nothing better to do than cause trouble.''

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-prot28.html

Which raises the obvious question: If poverty in Cuba moved her to action, why is she protesting against capitalism? Cuba hasn't been capitalist in more than 40 years.

And here, courtesy of the Washington Post, is a lovely example of a leftist who contradicts his own words merely by speaking them:

"Getting together and talking freely is now considered subversive," said Jason Ford, a Vermont activist who joined the demonstrations. "But that could be one connecting issue -- the democratic right to just assemble is being lost."

Yesterday afternoon, Ford was one of a couple of hundred protesters sitting in Farragut Square debating the future of such demonstrations.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20686-2002Sep29.html

Is it not long past time that protestors update tactics? The tactics used at Washington last time are as outmoded as cavalry and massed bayonets. What is to be gained by plodding in mass into the arms of the police? Why do protestors not break into smaller, fluid, highly mobile groups and practice the tried and true tactic of hit and run? The police are trained to deal with centralized masses of people who are willing to be arrested. They are not trained, nor do they have the numbers, to deal with multiple, simultaneous, decentralized actions by small, fast moving affinity groups.

Multiple, simultaneous, decentralized actions by small, fast moving affinity groups can shut a city down. Yet protestors persist in clinging to to the outmoded tactics of the past. Could it be that they are being led by collaborators? Or are protest leaders merely as stupid and Foch and Ludendorf? Maybe it’s time to that protestors stopped following leaders and started thinking for themselves.

<Do you take us for fools? If you believe this really happened, I have a great deal on a bridge for you.>

Of course you don't believe it. You can't believe anything that'll upset your little apple cart.

subcommander is showing why I'm
not losing hope yet.
XLNT advice.

AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.

(a) AUTHORIZATION. The president is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/03/politics/03HTEX.html?pagewanted=2

Fuck the IDIOT House! They are FIRED!!

There might not be another "free" vote if
we get another " event " fire them hell, get
some rope after we expose them and their
puppet masters to the light of day!

>"Tactics, etc.
by nessie • Thursday October 03, 2002 at 10:08 AM"

>> these protestors are still uneducated children trying to impress each other.

>"Protesters come in all ages and all levels of formal education."

By your own admission, then, you are an adult with a child's mind who has wasted 30 years not understanding anything.

Ignorance is bliss for you, right, Nessie?

I'm the one who's not to smart OR mature.
The children of the street as you call them
want a world WITHOUT assholes who spend
human blood for their own gain.

Samboy:

What % of eligible voters bother to?

What % of those that bother to vote believe that real power in this society is wielded outside the constraints of "democratic" procedures?

In other words, how many in their heart of hearts believe in your shitty little democracy?

I won't be around for a few days but I await with anticipation a canned four-liner, sammie.

> "In other words, how many in their heart of hearts believe in your shitty little democracy?"

The overwhelming majority of Americans, Aaron.

Which is why you you won't get your totalitarian state democratically.

Which exactly confirms my previous statement.

>>No, Sam B
>>by Sheepdog
>>I'm the one who's not to smart OR mature.

Nuff said.

I may not be smart or mature
but at least I'm not ignorant.
You really don't have be very
bright to smell the crap coming
out of the mouths of total
morons like the self-serving fools
we have in the white house.

> "like the self-serving fools we have in the white house."

Too bad you can't support your assertion, Sheepdog. That's why all those Children of the Street take to the streets: because they can yell assertions but are never able to support them.

After all, it's much easier to beat drums, dance, break the law, yell, and brandish rediculous signs.

What to do when you encounter protesters like these:

1. Point and laugh

2. Send out a freak alert on your cell phone

3. Take pictures. You can email these to your friends to share with them the experience of encountering a mob weirdos in the streets.

4. Go home and take a bath.

Either you havn't been paying attention
or you are just droning the same crap
without personal knowledge.
If you feel comfort in your opinion that's
fine with me. Although I havn't seen to much
from you to support your threadbare idealogy.
Try giving me some of YOUR facts.
We can deal with them in this forum.




if yo

Bush Admirer,

don't forget to bring the RAID.

Don't mind the little weasels who cannot
do but spray their own brand of small
minded (and I am being VERY generous)
"ideas" out to a forum without ANYTHING
solid but "bring the raid or get a bath"
and we expect such nonsense from narrow
minded, cracker barrel philosophers.
Just part of the human tapestry. These stains
just require more scrubbing to remove.

Sheepy, you must learn to face the reality of the many illusions you've taken as the truth all these years.

I'm here to help you see the light, help you through that fog you've been wandering through.

For starters, a bunch of us are organizing a protest march - something you'll feel comfortable doing - protesting the Longshoremens' illegal slowdown, union violence and their union's anti-democratic behavior.

I can count on you joining us, right?

You're not a sheep dog, you're a weasel.

There is nothing to like about anti-war protesters or anti-globalization protesters or Ralph Nader.

They're all losers. I think you're a loser too.

This is NEWS!
Now you should practice reading and then
maybe some analysis.
How about some facts? Examples? Links?
OH! Too much to ask?
Terribly SORRY!

Cat got your tongue, Sheepy?

Are you going to join us in protesting the Longshoremens' illegal slowdown, union violence and their union's anti-democratic behavior?

yeah great idea, lets break up the union and pay them minimum wage with no health benfits for their children

thats very patriotic
god bless you patriotic americans

The comments by Sam B. are classic Right Wing propaganda. This fool runs his mouth about how "Democratic" America supposedly is--even as the current American regime of George W. Bush and Dick Cheney sezied power through electoral fraud and deception in the 2000 Florida election.

Next, this clown tries to smear the anti-war and anti-globalization movement as being without a vision, all the while praising the Totalitarian vision of "Conservative Internationalists" who want to spread American Imperialism... er ... I mean 'democracy' around the world.

The only vision that you Right Wing fascists have is a vision of spreading American domination, American exploitating, and American savagery around the planet--disgusied behind all the usual All-American lies about "Democracy and Freedom.

American Democracy and Freedom are the greatest lies ever conceived. They are nothing more than self-righteous bullshit that Patriotic American fascists tell themselves in order to justify America's latest criminal wars.

You want to know what America really stands for? Read the new National SEcuritiy Strategy of the USA (a.k.a the Bush Doctrine). IT is a vision of permanent American control and domination of the planet. What the Pentagon calls "Full Spectrum Dominance."

And what anti-American Freedom Fighters call Totalitarian Americanism

Sam B. & Bush Admirer are worthy of no more than one or two lines of your time - please don't fall for their tactics that they use all over, on la.indymedia, portland.indymedia, etc.

Just move to another thread when you see them, or another site - there's tons and tons of great stuff on the many many other sites. Also a great opportunity to learn new tactics for actions and to see who is doing what around the country.

Sam B. & Bush Admirer are worthy of no more than one or two lines of your time - please don't fall for their tactics that they use all over, on la.indymedia, portland.indymedia, etc.

Just move to another thread when you see them, or another site - there's tons and tons of great stuff on the many many other sites. Also a great opportunity to learn new tactics for actions and to see who is doing what around the country.

>Totalitarian Americanism by Stop Fascist America • Sunday October
>13, 2002 at 02:06 PM

>The comments by Sam B. are classic Right Wing propaganda. This fool
>runs his mouth about how "Democratic" America supposedly is..."

Actually, I said how UNdemocratic the Left is.

>--even as the current American regime of George W. Bush and Dick
>Cheney sezied power through electoral fraud and deception in the
>2000 Florida election.

More signs that I am correct about the Left and its propensity to
distort reality for its own hypocritical purposes. We all know, at
least those who support the truth, that George W. Bush and Dick
Cheney DID NOT seize power through electoral fraud and deception in
the 2000 Florida election. To repeat this known nonsense is only a
sign of how lost the Left has become.

>Next, this clown tries to smear the anti-war and anti-globalization
>movement as being without a vision, all the while praising the
>Totalitarian vision of "Conservative Internationalists" who want to
>spread American Imperialism... er ... I mean 'democracy' around the
>world.

Actually, if you repeat honestly what I wrote, you'd would have to
say that I accuse the Left of behaving anti-democratically to support
ITS vision of us becoming totalitarian. Don't try to lie to us, bubba
Fascist.

>The only vision that you Right Wing fascists have is a vision of
>spreading American domination, American exploitating, and American
>savagery around the planet--disgusied behind all the usual
>All-American lies about "Democracy and Freedom.

I happen to be a liberal Republican fighting the extreme leftist
nonsense of idiots like you, bubba Fascist.

>American Democracy and Freedom are the greatest lies ever conceived.
>They are nothing more than self-righteous bullshit that Patriotic
>American fascists tell themselves in order to justify America's
>latest criminal wars.

Too bad you can't support your assertion. Too bad that democracy is
the LAST thing you want as your transparent behavior proves.

>You want to know what America really stands for? Read the new
>National SEcuritiy Strategy of the USA (a.k.a the Bush Doctrine). IT
>is a vision of permanent American control and domination of the
>planet. What the Pentagon calls "Full Spectrum Dominance."

In your bankrupt dreams, bubba Fascist.

Actually, the one leftist I admire, Christopher Hitchins, always has
the ethical courage to call you bottomfeeders on the carpet, as he
did when he resigned from The Nation a few weeks ago:

Christopher Hitchens, The Nation, September 26, 2002
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20021014&s=hitchens

"Moreover, it's obvious to me that the "antiwar" side would not be
convinced even if all the allegations made against Saddam Hussein
were proven, and even if the true views of the Iraqi people could be
expressed. All evidence pointed overwhelmingly to the Taliban and Al
Qaeda last fall, and now all the proof is in; but I am sent petitions
on Iraq by the same people (some of them not so naïve) who still
organize protests against the simultaneous cleanup and rescue of
Afghanistan, and continue to circulate falsifications about it. The
Senate adopted the Iraq Liberation Act without dissent under Clinton;
the relevant UN resolutions are old and numerous. I don't find the
saner, Richard Falk-ish view of yet more consultation to be very
persuasive, either.

"This is something more than a disagreement of emphasis or tactics.
When I began work for The Nation over two decades ago, Victor Navasky
described the magazine as a debating ground between liberals and
radicals, which was, I thought, well judged. In the past few weeks,
though, I have come to realize that the magazine itself takes a side
in this argument, and is becoming the voice and the echo chamber of
those who truly believe that John Ashcroft is a greater menace than
Osama bin Laden. (I too am resolutely opposed to secret imprisonment
and terror-hysteria, but not in the same way as I am opposed to those
who initiated the aggression, and who are planning future ones.) In
these circumstances it seems to me false to continue the association,
which is why I have decided to make this "Minority Report" my last
one."

Remember, don't waste fingers typing more than one or two lines on someone who admits he 'will never be convinced.'

I support the argument he tried to refute.

> "Remember, don't waste fingers typing more than one or two lines on someone who admits he 'will never be convinced.' "

Oops, you just did, bov.

ooooooooooooooh! this man looks so sexy opposing no war rallies! i wonder if bush is looking for a new fuck buddy...................

(ha! fuckin ha!)

Does anyone remember 9/11 . The loss of thousands of American men women and children? But you seem to have a lot to say about loss of Iraqi lives, what about our citizens?
The stance you take now is the stance we all sat in before 9/11. After 9/11, we true Americans wont put up with terrorist and they must be dealt with.
you are pathetic and un-American. You send a clear message of support to Saddam from America, which he uses for propaganda in his country, you embolden him, and other regimes of terror across the world. You make America look bad, by spiting in the face of American troops, and our president. You give a clear message to terrorist that the people of America don’t mind dying by their hands as you embrace them and give them safety and comfort by your anti American protests. The government you protect (saddam, and yes osama and all other terrorist across the world that want you dead at even the cost of their own lives are waiting to kill you and your children, yet you love them and protect them. You are yourselves terrorists by embracing these murderers and giving them comfort.
Say your idiot protest did cause the president to stop action against Iraq, and a year down the road we get drone flyovers from Saddam killing millions of U.S. men women and children, what are you going to say to the rest of us who wanted our soil protected from this terrorist? Your apologies will not help the parents who watch in horror as the faces of their children dissolve into mush from chem. and biological weapons. Don’t forget dirty bombs!
The United States military precision bombing is precise for military targets and loss of Iraqi civilians is minimal. However, terrorists target and kill not military targets but go for the civilians. You and me and our wives and children. If you are against this war, you are for the death of our American citizens, men women and children. 9/11 taught you nothing. You are pro millions of American deaths as opposed to a few thousand Iraqi deaths.
All across this great country people like me want safety here. I never want to see another 9/11. You don’t seem to mind 9/11s in our country from men like saddam and osama but we do mind and will support our president while he does what it takes to keep us safe here in America. Even you will be protected by what you despise, so you can stand against freedom in America and embrace murderous terrorist across the world.
You and all like you make me sick. You are terrorist against America.
Thank you President Bush for your strength and resolve to make America a safe place to live.

James B.

I fully and totaly agree with James B. on what he has said. That is more to the point and clear then most have put it in a while.
This is for/about you damn protesters. You anti-war; I mean, anti-american jerks, will not accopmlish anything. Think what you want, but you are just pissing off all the hard working, law biting citizens. You take to the streets having a "peaceful" demonstartion, how is that peacful when your costing the state $600,000 a day to keep the city riunning. You cause people to be late for work, police officers from being home with their famlies at night. Oh wait, isn't that what you wanted for our troops? You are causing more bad than good and you do not relize it. You are taking the freedom of speech too far. Our men, our soldiers are over seas facing death so YOU can sleep well at night. They are doing this for YOU. But protesters cannot be so humble to this fact, they have to rally against what the armed forces are doing to protect them, and thow it back in the faces of the men and women that go out and face death to protect us. Our soldiers have earned my gratitude and respect, why dont you show some back.

Dear Americans,
Many British people share your hoplessness, anger and frustration that you feel against your absolute idiot of a president and his establishment.

It is quite clear Bush is an American Imperialist bent on enforcing his notion of 'Democracy' by the bullet. Bush wants his hands in the oil money pot and war is always effective for an American economy that is weakening.

Will America attack Israel next for its human rights abuses. I think not.

Lets not cheer the troops, lets feel absolute bloody pity for them to having to do Bush's dirty work. What are they fighting for, they are fighting for greed.

Even when the war is over, this will not be the end but merely the beginning of the war. Many more lives will be lost, 9/11 was merely a taster of things to come.

Like the 'friendly fire' that has killed more Americans and British than the Iraqi's have managed the lesson to Bush is this, good old fashioned diplomacy is what is needed no matter how long it takes, not trigger happy war or economic embargoes that have killed many innocent people and have left many of the Iraqi's destute and starving with little sanitation.