Huge Antiwar Rally In San Francisco Draws Tens Of Thousands

Really appreciate the pix to show how many oppose dictator Bush! I was there doing my part! Stop warmonger Bush NOW!

Some more pictures... got a nice panoramic shot of the crowd. Will put up more pictures on this site as more time frees up for me... stay tuned!

please check date:
is indymedia reporting a second event,
speedway meadow ggpark, sf
on sunday 09/08 the match of 911 rally, saturday 09/07?

thx for brilliant photos.

Thank you America for showing the rest of the world that you do not follow the maniac in the Whitehouse

Don't talk so global, fool. Not all Americans are cowards trying to appease the enemy. All you people are doing is subconciously hoping you'll be spared in the next attack. Your all fools

Sounds like you're jealous of the excellent concert and vibes at the Meadow . . . sorry to hear it. Try letting some of your anger go.

The whole world isn't out to destroy the US for being 'the biggest' - certain people and groups are willing to take action against the US because of very specific reasons. Those have not been addressed.

Best estimates were around 10,000, not "Tens Of Thousands". Enhancing the numbers make us seem more than dishonest. The truth is enough.

Or haven't you heard about the way that news agencies distort numbers estimates at these types of events?

Either way, get with it.

Hey bov,

In my experience it's not worthwhile responding to the static. If they've fallen for Bush's message, they're probably beyond your reach. Your effort would be better directed at corporate media, your "representatives" in government, etc.

Just my $.02

By the way, the comment above is in reference to "F*** you Sue" followup. I agree that we need accurate crowd estimates; otherwise, we just end up looking like mega media fools who can't count.

Speaking of which, how does one accurately estimate crowds of this size? It's not like you could count ticket stubs.

"Speaking of which, how does one accurately estimate crowds of this size?"

Square footage and density, usually.

"Best estimates were around 10,000, not "Tens Of Thousands". Enhancing the numbers make us seem more than dishonest. The truth is enough"


The width of the crowd is around 100 from some of the top pics and the depth is alot more than a hundred so I would say 10,000 seems a little small for an estimate.

People, if we are ever going to get anything done we need to be willing to compromise and work together. We're all on the same team. The kind of venom and anger exhibited by '"who wants to know" is what poisons our efforts and prevents real progress from happening.

"Who wants to know," lashing out at someone who you perceive to be less hard core than you only helps our enemies. Further, this "fuck you" attitude is completely antithetical to the spirit in which the 911 event was organized. In case you missed it, the event was about unity within our community.

If we are going to have any shot at creating real change in this country we need to get off of our self-righteous soapboxes and unite! This will require compromise, if you are not willing to compromise within the peace community than you are not helping and I'd just as soon see you fuck off and go play in your "The Revolution is Coming" fantasy world.

People, if we are ever going to get anything done we need to be willing to compromise and work together. We're all on the same team. The kind of venom and anger exhibited by '"who wants to know" is what poisons our efforts and prevents real progress from happening.

"Who wants to know," lashing out at someone who you perceive to be less hard core than you only helps our enemies. Further, this "fuck you" attitude is completely antithetical to the spirit in which the 911 event was organized. In case you missed it, the event was about unity within our community.

If we are going to have any shot at creating real change in this country we need to get off of our self-righteous soapboxes and unite! This will require compromise, if you are not willing to compromise within the peace community than you are not helping and I'd just as soon see you fuck off and go play in your "The Revolution is Coming" fantasy world.

People, if we are ever going to get anything done we need to be willing to compromise and work together. We're all on the same team. The kind of venom and anger exhibited by '"who wants to know" is what poisons our efforts and prevents real progress from happening.

"Who wants to know," lashing out at someone who you perceive to be less hard core than you only helps our enemies. Further, this "fuck you" attitude is completely antithetical to the spirit in which the 911 event was organized. In case you missed it, the event was about unity within our community.

If we are going to have any shot at creating real change in this country we need to get off of our self-righteous soapboxes and unite! This will require compromise, if you are not willing to compromise within the peace community than you are not helping and I'd just as soon see you fuck off and go play in your "The Revolution is Coming" fantasy world.

this debate over how many thousands of people were at the "power to the peaceful" concert is useless. guaging the success of a rally soley by the number of attendees is cowardly.

i appreciate the power the the peacefull demo. it was a good opportunity to network and challenge a lot of people to go the next level of activism. but lets be frank and sober; the power to the peaceful concert was basically a free concert in gg park with some headline bands performing. that a lot of people showed up is not necessarily a success. a lot of people show up to a raider football game; that doesn't make a football game something progressive.

the measure of its success will be if the vast majority of the folks who came out to it will allow themselves to become active in the struggle for justice and peace. that remains to be seen.

the "bush did it" demo that converged on the bigger concert on the other hand was an opportunity for a courageous small band of activists who aren't afraid to tell the truth to make a public statement and allow others to feel some permission to do the same themselves. those of us on that march didn't enjoy the comfort of having many thousands of people alongside us. but we did something -- indict bush his role in the 9-11 -- which a lot of people know needs to happen but are afraid to say publically themselves.

there nothing wrong with being afraid of u.s. imperialism. it is brutally and wants to crush maim and kill everyone that stands in its way. but when enough people do whats right; not whats fun or comfortable, we'll turn the tables.

the bush did it demo is again taking it to the streets at the federal building in oakland on nine-one-one itself at five o'clock. if one thirteenth of the people who know that bush did it -- either directly, or indirectly through creating and maintaining the conditions where the entire world hates the u.s. and wold rather die in struggle than live in subjegation -- than we will have a big demo that no one will be able to ignore. if you're that 13th monkey, then email allpeeps [at] yahoo.com and hook it up with us.

however if you're not ready yet, thats cool. all peeps will keep the fire going till you are.

all power to the peeps
matthew willis.

the brass liberation orcquestra and the radical cheerleaders were just great. special thanks to them for bring that spirit and talent to the march. now lets take it to september 11th and make another powerfull statement on that day!

matthew willis, all peeps.

i was a little underwhelmed. i was really hoping for more speakers and less music. a few of the speeches were good, but many lacked proper focus. the entire "bush did it" group didn't seem to have a clear agenda from what i could hear due to the lack of power generation in the beginning.

i would agree with the point of the mass being there for the free music and hanging out in the park. i just had hoped there would have been more speakers.

Sue obviously made a global statement. But not all of us in America share the views of the appeasement cowards. Some of us are angry and want justice, and are tired of you people "speaking" for us when your obviously not.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,62513,00.html

The Democrats wanted war with Iraq in 1998. Why all of a sudden the change of heart? if Clinton was in there you people would be falling all over yourselves for war.

FOXNews.com
Democrats Supported War on Iraq in 1998
Tuesday, September 10, 2002
By Carl Cameron

WASHINGTON — Democrats are expressing reluctance and sometimes outright
opposition to President Bush's plans for action against Iraq, even though they
were on board with former President Clinton's plans to attack the rogue nation
four years ago.

"His regime threatens the safety of his people, the stability of his region, and
the security of all the rest of us," Clinton said in February 1998. "Some day,
some way, I guarantee you, he'll use the arsenal. Let there be no doubt, we are
prepared to act.

"I know the people we may call upon in uniform are ready. The American people
have to be ready as well," he added.

The words came within weeks of Senate Concurrent Resolution 71, co-sponsored by
Senate Democratic leader Tom Daschle and a dozen other Democrats.

The resolution condemned "in the strongest possible terms" Iraq's continued
threat to international peace and security, and urged then-President Clinton to
"take all necessary and appropriate actions to respond to the threat posed by
Iraq's refusal to end it's weapons of mass destruction programs."

Among the Democratic co-sponsors were Sens. Patrick Leahy of Vermont, Chris Dodd
of Connecticut, Max Cleland of Georgia, Robert Torricelli of New Jersey, Bob
Graham of Florida and John Kerry of Massachusetts.

These days, they and other Democrats express doubt and reluctance to use force,
but four years ago, Democrats in the House and Senate got downright hawkish,
advocating an attack if Saddam Hussein did not comply with every detail of all
the United Nations' weapons sanctions.

"If not, it's back to business. It is the use of force. It is a swift response
militarily and by whatever other means may be necessary," Daschle said in a
speech in late February 1998.

"I think that it is going to have to be more than a mere thump, as we say in
Missouri. It's going to have to be a major, major strike," said Democratic Rep.
Ike Skelton.

Congress never voted on the resolution urging force because Iraqi President
Saddam Hussein promised again to comply with the U.N. sanctions at the last
minute. He broke that promise only a few days later when he threw the U.N.
weapons inspectors out of Iraq altogether.

After that event four years ago, Daschle said that "if nothing changes, the use
of force at some point would be inevitable."

But four days ago, Daschle sounded a different tune.

"What has changed over the course of the last 10 years that brings this country
to the belief that it has to act in a pre-emptive fashion?"

What has changed by most accounts is that after four years of continued weapons
development, Saddam is even more dangerous than he was when Daschle was
advocating military action.

What also has changed is the resident of the White House, a Republican
president, who maintains very high popularity ratings.

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/congress/1998/s980128l.htm


SENATE CONCURRENT RESOLUTION 71--CONDEMNING IRAQ'S THREAT TO INTERNATIONAL PEACE AND SECURITY (Senate - January 28, 1998)
[Page: S180]


Mr. LOTT (for himself, Mr. Daschle, Mr. McCain, Mr. Leahy, Mr. Helms, Mr. Dodd, Mr. Brownback, Mr. Bryan, Mr. Warner, Mr. Cleland, Mr. Stevens, Mr. Torricelli, Mr. Mack, Mr. Kerry, Mr. Coverdell, Mr. Byrd, Mr. Smith of Oregon, Mr. Moynihan, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Wyden, Mr. Gorton, Mr. Graham, Mr. Faircloth, Mr. Hollings, Ms. Collins, Mr. Akaka, Mr. Inhofe, Mr. Conrad, Mr. Grams, Mr. Robb, Mr. Bennett, Mr. Specter, and Mr. Hagel) submitted the following concurrent resolution; which was read twice and ordered placed on the calendar:
S. Con. Res. 71


Whereas hostilities in Operation Desert Storm ended on February 28, 1991, and the cease-fire was codified in United Nations Security Council Resolutions 686 (March 2, 1991) and 687 (April 3, 1991);
Whereas United Nations Security Council Resolutions 687 requires that international economic sanctions remain in place until Iraq discloses and destroys its weapons of mass destruction programs and capabilities and undertakes unconditionally never to resume such activities;
Whereas Resolution 687 further established the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) on Iraq to uncover all aspects of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs;
Whereas United Nations Security Council Resolution 715, adopted on October 11, 1991, further empowers UNSCOM to maintain a long-term monitoring program to ensure Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs are dismantled and not restarted;
Whereas in violation of the 1991 cease-fire agreements and subsequent United Nations Security Council Resolutions, the Iraqi government has repeatedly and deliberately impeded UNSCOM from conducting its mission through concealment, harassment, deception and intimidation;
Whereas despite the sustained opposition of the government of Iraq, UNSCOM has discovered many instances of inaccurate and duplicitous actions by Iraq concerning Iraqi ballistic missile capabilities and chemical and biological weapons programs:
Whereas the United Nations Security Council has repeatedly demanded that Iraq end its obstruction of UNSCOM, including in Resolutions 1060 (June 12, 1996), 1115 (June 21, 1996), 1134 (October 23, 1997) and 1137 (November 12, 1997);
Whereas the work by the leadership and personnel of UNSCOM under difficult and dangerous conditions has been commendable;
Whereas Iraq continues to obstruct the work of UNSCOM by limiting access to sites in Iraq, by restricting the movement of UNSCOM personnel, and by threatening to end all cooperation with UNSCOM;
Whereas Iraq's continuing weapons of mass destruction programs threaten vital United States interests and international peace and security; and
Whereas the United States has existing authority to defend United States interests in the Persian Gulf region:
Now, therefore, be it resolved that the Senate, the House of Representatives concurring--
(1) Condemns in the strongest possible terms the continued threat to international peace and security posed by Iraq's refusal to meet its international obligations and end its weapons of mass destruction programs;
(2) Urges the President to take all necessary and appropriate actions to respond to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs; and
(3) Urges the President to work with Congress in furthering a long-term policy aimed at definitively ending the threat to international peace and security posed by the government of Iraq and its weapons of mass destruction programs.

Isn't that the organisation that sides with the dictator that is starving his people over altered grain? Like the alterations are going to kill them? Their dying ANYWAY, you idiots!

what the hell are you talking about? I'd like a link please. I've never heard of anything like what you're talking about.

Just type in Greenpeace and Bullshit Award. You'll find a few things. Seems you liberals in the long run don't give a rat fuck about the poor. Greenpeace is a business, anyway.

By the way, any of you liberals who protest when the wind blows raise hell about the lobster and caviar at the big "Conference" on world hunger the other day?

Hypocrite bastards.

People, I'll say it again: we're all on the same team. All you people cursing and calling each other names have a couple of choices:

1. Stage a few hardline rallies that may (or may not)make a stink but that don't change minds (because of the severity of the rhetoric) and then call everyone who isn't willing to take a radical stance a bunch of hypocrites and sell-outs

2. Pick up a gun and start making change happen. (y'all talk big, I say go for it. I'll be sitting that one out)

3. Work within the exsisting system which might require getting off of your more-rightous-than-thou soapbox, listening and -dare I say- compromsing.

Yes the system is stacked against us, but since armed revolution is not an option we can either not compromise, not change anyones' mind, not win any new recruits to our side, not get anything accomplished or we can demonstrate our communitcaion and concensus building skills and take back the system from within. That means participating in the political process.

Many of us have been yelling at the top of our lungs for some time. It hasn't been working. Do we just yell louder or do we try to calmly deliver a slightly more digestible argument. People don't like being called hypocrites and idiots. It might make you feel good to call them names but when they are close to your point of view and you have the potential to work together, a refusal to compromise and meet in the middle helps no one but the enemy.

As a quick aside and response to "who wants to know." My friend, you are allowing youself to be dupped by the mouthpiece of the Bush administration. Please, please, please don't publish anything from FOX NEWS on this message board. They are a huge part of the problem. I was against military action in 1998 (and I am a registered Democrat - The HORROR!) but the key difference -that FOX subtley failed to mention- was in 1998 Saddam was unwilling to comply with UN wepons inspections. Now he is begging the UN to come in and inspect, he invited the US Congress to come in themselves. Saddam is desperately trying to avoid war (while still keeping up a bit of his autocratic posturing of course) but the Bush administration refuses to listen. Clinton's goal in 1998 was to be sure that weapon's inspections happened, Bush's goal is a complete regime change. See the difference? Please, please, please in the future remember that FOX NEWS is the enemy and they are just trying to divide us.

Yes the Democrats are bad news, yes they have completely lost touch with us - the left - but they are our ONLY chance at any real political change. We can opt out and let business as usual continue or we can jump into the process and try to change minds. The later requires compromise.

Since when do we care what hypocrites and idiots like?

http://allafrica.com/stories/200209040276.html


Bulldung Awards for Summit Hypocrites

OPINION
September 3, 2002
Posted to the web September 4, 2002
Jim Peron
Johannesburg

The contrast couldn't be more extreme. Carrying his placard the man in front of me was clearly one of the poorest of the poor. His shoes were not only threadbare, they were tattered, merely rags barely being held together. He shuffled down the streets of affluent Sandton just outside the chic conference centre and the five star hotels where the UN's World Summit on Sustainable Development was being held.

Protesters at such events are expected. Every year affluent Europeans and American who are full-time 'radicals' fly off to demonstrate on behalf of the world's poor. But the poor themselves rarely participate in these elite demonstrations.

This time it was different. Far more different than first meets the eye. You had to read the signs these poor people were carrying to understand how much their message contrasted with that of affluent protesters from the Northern Hemisphere. If you stepped in front of the man with slivers of leather attached to his feet you'd see his sign said: "Trade Not Aid."

The marchers in this protest were mainly poor, virtually all black, and mostly women. They were street traders and farmers. Without fail everyone had a sticker saying :"Freedom to Trade."
Farmers from India marched side by side with Zulu women wearing T-shirts saying: "Biotechnology for Africa."

On the sideline the press and Summit delegates stood aghast. What do you say to poor people with signs reading: "Stop Eco-Imperialism" or "Save the Planet from Sustainable Development" or "Free Trade IS Fair Trade".

The Green Left wants to paint globalisation as rich versus the poor but the rich are supposed to be in favour of free trade and the poor opposed to it. But here the situation was precisely the opposite. The anti-globalisation protesters were those who could afford to fly in on international flights and stay at expensive hotels that local street traders could never afford to visit.

The farmers from India were demanding the right to grow genetically modified crops. Other speakers at the rally demanded the end of subsidies for agriculture in developed countries while English group Oxfam called for more subsidies for their first-world farmers.

One rally speaker was Barun Mitra of the Liberty Institute of New Delhi, India.
He announced that they wanted to give a well-deserved award to various Green and anti-globalisation groups that he said were perpetuating poverty in the Third World. He announced that he wanted to grant the "Bullshit Award for Perpetuating Poverty" to the high priestess of the environmental movement - Ms Vandana Shiva. Among the others nominated in this very close contest were Greenpeace, Third World Network, SAFeAge and other such groups. The mere mention of Greenpeace brought loud and derisive remarks from the marchers.

There was general agreement among the marchers that increased productivity, through trade and technology, not only helps in reducing poverty, but also helps in improving the quality of environmental resources. Clearly, increased consumption reflects economic and environmental well-being.

Surely this must have been the environmentalists' worst nightmare. Real poor people marching in the streets and demanding development while opposing the eco-agenda of the Green Left.
These were people who had real concerns. They need development. They need economic prosperity. As one of the street traders told me: "I've got children to feed. I don't want to be a criminal." Her words brought an immediate chorus of agreement from several other woman standing with her.

Meanwhile that day another Green group released another report demanding less free trade, less development, and less prosperity. They specifically said that it would be wrong to economically develop poor nations. Instead we should impoverish wealthy nations so everyone is equal. They called for 'wealth alleviation'.

One of the authors of that report is Green guru Anita Roddick who once gushed the sentiment, "how quickly you could fall in love with the economics of less." The economics of less wouldn't mean much to Roddick. She's a multimillionaire.

But the people in the streets of Sandton couldn't survive on the 'economics of less.' Less to feed their children means the children starve.

Unlike the well-funded anti-globalisation elite these people couldn't afford to fly around the world for conferences. They crammed into small mini-vans just to get to the Summit while UN delegates rode by in chauffeur-driven limousines with police escorts. The street traders couldn't afford a press attaché to contact the media on their behalf. Their media outreach was a loudspeaker attached to the roof of a dilapidated old truck that had to pushed through the streets.

These weren't the poverty pimps from the North: that band of elite Westerners who are paid to lobby full-time on behalf of what they think the poor need.

These people were the poor themselves and they were demanding something that baffles the Left. It is called freedom.


Author: Jim Peron is a freelance researcher and writer. This article may be republished without prior consent but with acknowledgement. The patrons, council and members of the Free Market Foundation do not necessarily agree with the views expressed in the article.


© 2002 Moneyweb. All rights reserved. Distributed by AllAfrica Global Media (allAfrica.com).

David, you are an absolute starry eyed liberal, who refuses to use common sense and face the truth. Of COURSE Hussein is oh so willing to let us in now, since theres a gun to his head. There should have been one in 1998, but Democrts are more than willing to turn and look the other way. Democrats are talkers, but they don't do anything, since they are just cowards only. They like to hear themselves talk. They crow about helping the poor while eating lobster and caviar in the midst of poverty. Should a liberal ever believed or respected? Yet theyre the only hope, ObiWan?

You don't think theres time for a regime change? It's obvious youre not a Kurd or Iranian or Kuwaitie.

The Left is our only hope? I cant stop laughing. "Business as usual", you said. Greenpeace is a business. Protesting is a business. Attacking the right is a business.

Look at the images posted here, of people that claim they "care". The first image has the Mumia garbage on it. Wasn't Mumia a cop killer? So much for power to the "peaceful" All those pictures show is misfits at a carnival atmosphere. If not for the band and dope the day would have been a bust. Liberals cant get a message across without having to attract the ones with low IQs.

I can here Mumia(played by Weasly Cook) shout "I shot the mother-fucking cop!" thru-out this so called "peace rally".

grrrrrrrrr .... ruff! ruff ruff ruff! ...... grrrrrrr ........ leftists are uhm uh uhm right wing Nazis! yeah that's it! ..... grrrrrr .... arf arf! don't call me TrollNerd! arrrrr ..... rufff! ruff, ruff, ruff!!!!!

<(:-o>

war geek

So, now it's war geek? like you're not a geek? But you're right, of course. I'll never amount to anything since i don't want to save Osama by giving him a hug or a blowjob.

I also missed my calling to try and marry one of the Manson "girls" too. Guess that means I'll be a geek forever, you useless idiot.

"Guess that means I'll be a geek forever"

you said it, little buddy

I know why Germany is so anti-war on Iraq....

...they take it personally when someone wants to beat up on a mustached military dictator who gasses his own people.

But seriously, if war isn't the answer, how can the people of Iraq free themselves from a military dictator with a huge secret police? Please answer!

Moreover, how can you do that once he develops nuclear weapons?

They had the opportunity when they rose up against him in 1991 during the Gulf War due to Bush's calls that the people rise up against him. Bush, however, allowed Saddam to massacre them -- not allowing US forces to assist or even giving the rebelling generals weapons the US had siezed.

This happened again around '95 or so, again with the US asking the Iraqi people to overthrow him but then betraying them and letting them get slaughtered.

It's pretty obvious that the US doesn't want a real democracy there, but another dictatorship that will follow US orders. This is especially obvious since the US is responsible for the nearly 1.5 to 2 million Iraqis killed from sanctions -- which is maintained by US pressure.

NOW!
There is a person who ir REALLY out there in the dark!A brainwashed psychotic, if ever I heard one.
I remember my uncle in Oregon telling us about this sort of mindless creature, during the McCarthy Plague.
Beware of them. KEL

NOW!
There is a person who ir REALLY out there in the dark!A brainwashed psychotic, if ever I heard one.
I remember my uncle in Oregon telling us about this sort of mindless creature, during the McCarthy Plague.
Beware of them. KEL CANADA

To Traitor,
Please don't project your insecurities on the peace loving people that want to stand up to financial and political misdeads of a corupt capitalist system. You are not a psychologist so please dont pretend to act like one. Your apparent blind devotion to America sickens me.
-Focus-

One way to obtain peace
One way to end all war
One way unite all countries



THE BOMB.....................

THE US HAD IT COMING TO EM EVER SINCE THE VIETNAM WAR YA THATS RIGHT MEN WITH POWER IN THE WHITEHOUSE SEE THEY HAVE TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD BUT THATS THE PROBLEM ,MIND YOUR OWN FU***** BUISNESS AND SH** LIKE 911 WOULD'NT HAPPEN LET THE 3RD & 2ND WORLDS SORT EACHOTHER OUT HELL I GUESS IN SOME CASES OF GENICIDE I MEAN TOTAL POULATION WIPE OUT (SOMALIA INNCIDENT) THATS WHEN THE US AND OR NATO SHOULD MAKE THEIR BIG DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD. JEEZ YOU WOULD THINK AFTER 911 THATS A PRETTY GOOD EXAMPLE THAT THE DESTROYED COUNTRIES ARE TELLING YOU TO LEAVE THEM THE FU** ALONE.YA WANNA HEAR MY SOLLUTION TO THIS SH** THE MOTHER FU***** BOMB THOSE FEW US PRICKS INVENTED IT IN YOUR CONTRIES DEFENCE AND NOW THE VERY THING YOU INVENTED FOR YOUR SAFETY IS A THREAT AGAIST YOU (EXAMPLES ........COLDWAR,CHINA,INDIA,PAKISTAN, IRAQ!!!! SOONER OR LATER)

SO YOU GET WHAT IM TRYIN TO SAY
AMERICA DESTROYED AMERICA

For all you people that call bush a warmonger, devil and all that other bullshit, just think of this, you are spitting in the faces of every brave person that helps defend this great country, and from the day you were born, this country has made you a citizen, A GOD DAMN CITIZEN FOR JUST BEING BORN IN THIS COUNTRY! you spit in the faces of every armed forces personal because they have the balls to defend our country, they give their LIFES for you and they don't even KNOW YOU. I WILL DIE FOR MY COUNTRY BEFORE ANY COMMUNIST, FACIST, OR SOCIALIST BASTARD DECIDES TO UNDERMIND THE GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.

uhhh .. Cold War's over there, pal. Get a grip.

ummm.... i wan't talking about the cold war you jackass

i agree with roy(kinda), if we left other countries to their own buisness we wouldn't have as many enemies, but 9-11 was unexcusiable and we need to punish those who commited it. We give so much to other countries that have disaters or famine, etc. but those countries that we helped seem to turn on us when we look away, so i say stop helping them and focus on domestic problems.

Fight stated, which I agree 110% that the people like him go out there and die for people like you, and when he gets back to the U.S., he sees a bunch of dumb fucks spit in face because he fought for his belief and not some other. I'm not pointing anybody out on this article, and what they believe, because that is their 1st amendment right, and that is a point right there. FIGHT states that people like him fight so that you can sit back in your homes, watch tv, drive a nice car, say what you want, and be able to complain about everything.

My brother he's in the navy. He was shipped over to saudi arabia, and from what he has told us, he never wants to go back because that place is fucked up. If you steel over there, they sit your hand on a marble table and smash it with a hammer until every bone in your hand is demolished. And over there, women get beaten by their husbands because they looked at another man. Women have no rights over there.

Back during WW2 soldiers were respected, and citizens understood why they fought, they fought and died so that you can live. Ever since the damn vietnam war, this country was overrun by hippies spitting in soldiers faces. Ya I know it was a politicians war, and yet the military gets blamed for everything. Today, people don't respect soldiers at all from what I see. I love this country. This is home. Ya I may go to another country for tourism, but I know I can always come back to the U.S. because I know it's where home is. I just wish people would actually see things from other peoples point of views instead of judging them because they believe something that you don't. For instance, I say something on this site about what I believe, and then some other person maliciously retaliates with a little insult mixed with his beliefs, and I don't, because of the fact that I understand that all of you are entitled to your beliefs, and anybody who disagrees with that can move to the middle east and live under 1 belief. But by god you better not go against that belief in the middle east because they'll shoot you.

My point comes to the fact that this nation was formed by the revolution because of some king trying to rule our lives. The military at that time helped us gain our freedom. Now that this 9/11 attack came along, I thought you people would be for destroying the assholes who did it, but instead you seem to be raising white flags to a person who killed 1000s because of their religion. He is laughing at us right now, because he knew America would scatter like a flock of chickens and the only people standing up for this country are people like FIGHT or whoever he is.

I myself am going into the military, why because I charish the fact that the U.S. has the longest standing written constitution ever created and by god if I myself am going to let some other take that written freedom away from me. I would die for this country.

War is hell, we all know that, but there is a saying that goes, "The blood of the dead is shed so that the tree of life can grow." People will die in war, and that is the way it is, but they die so that people like us can live. If you have seen the movie BRAVEHEART about WILLIAM WALLACE. He fought so that the people of Scotland could be free, and he eventually got disemboweld by England, but because of him, Scotland was free. Many followed him because he wasn't going to let some king from another country tell his people what to do, and so he fought with every bit of his strength to keep his country free.

I know many people on this website will probably disagree with this so called lecture, and maybe some may not, but my point is, charish your freedom and don't let anybody take it from you.

Soldiers don't fight to protect your way of life, or to 'save freedom.' Soldiers fight because that's their job. They fight because they are sworn to obey their orders, no matter what they think of them. It's the same in any country. You can't run a military any other way.

Wasn't that Eichmann's excuse?

Yeah, but he was lying. He helped plan the thing.
Members of the German Army didn't go up for prosecution because they never had a choice about what they were doing. Alot of them didn't agree with it, but they did it anyway, because that's what a soldier is supposed to do.

"THE GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD"

are you insane?

Okay, I shouldn't resort to that. What I meant was, what are you TALKING about??

The greatest country in the world, whose leader is often mistaken for the devil, has declared it will use NUCLEAR FIRST STRIKE - there won't *be* any world anymore.

I suggest you look for a new line of business - you're in the employment of the biggest corporate kleptocracy in the world, making the world right for Walmart. Great cause there. We need 'em in every corner of the scorched earth, don't we?

Sol-jah.

Well, my essential point was that no military on earth fights for ideological reasons. They may be commanded to fight by people with ideological reasons, but the military itself is independant of such things. It will act on the order of whoever is the commander in chief, irregardless of whether he is good, bad, or indifferent. At least in theory. There have been military revolts. But for the most part a military is a tool, and all its members component tools. Like any tool, it can be used for a variety of purposes. It doesn't fight wars for freedom or for any other reason other than the simple fact it has been commanded to do so.

Soldiers these days don't really have a choice, other than to follow orders, I agree with you people on that, but I feel that when a soldier has been exposed to the type of trauma of warfare, for whatever reason, he should be treated with the utmost respect, because he just came back from hell as most veterans call it. I feel that if you have to address someone about something, don't yell at the military because they fought a war, yell at the politicians who started it.

Since this subject is about apposing the war in Iraq or terrorism, what do you all think should be done about this?

Personally I feel that we should take Saddam out. I feel this way, because Saddam has failed to recognize and follow U.N. resolutions, and has failed to report his routine check-ups for weapons of mass destruction. I have a feeling that he has got one hell of a project going on in Iraq with the weapons of mass destruction. If he is not going to stop when many countries have told him to stop, I feel that we should pull the plug on him.

Many citizens in Iraq disagree with Saddam because of his beliefs, but Saddam set his nation up to where the military has rule over all the citizens, kind of holding them hostage in a sense. Many citizens in Iraq have been wanting us to kill Saddam. I feel that if they want him killed, and they can't do anything about it, we should go in there an crush his army like an aunt.

Israel has failed to recognize and follow U.N. resolutions, too. Should America "take out" Sharon?

They are both fighting a holy war that has been raging for over 2000 years. Saddam is building nukes, but he doesn't really have long rang warheads. His warheads can only accurately aim for up 400 miles. That is plenty of distance to hit Israel.

I feel that they should both be taken out, before Iraq starts dropping nukes. Irael will eventually join in on the barrage. Even though this would be a war between them, the nuke fallout would go all around the world, I say get rid of Saddam and Sharon.

I'll take back that quote "take out Israel too" because I don't think Israel is bothering us, but Iraq surely is, and to have a dictator like Saddam ruling the worlds most valuable resource, and killing his own people, he should die for that

So it's all about "us," is it? What about the people they *are* bothering? What about them? Don't they count?

> the worlds most valuable resource

It doesn't belong to "the world," and even less does it belong to us. It belongs to the people who live there. To take it by force is nothing but piracy. This isn't about Saddam. It's about stealing resources from the people of the third world. Yeah, Saddam is evil, but he's no more evil than Musharef, Putin or Hu. You may notice the US is not threatening them.

Probably, the reason why we are not trying to destroy these other nations that you mentioned, whoever you are, that we don't have support from other countries to destroy those nations. Why do you think it took us so long to decide to bomb Iraq's missil sites recently, because we had to have support and confirmation from other nations.

You usually don't attack another nation unless you know about them first, because of the fact that they maybe getting support from other countries, and the last thing you would want would be to have a few nations attacking you at once, because Germany learned that leson in WW2, they thought they counld dominate the world, and found the U.S. and Russia, and the British on their asses.

And to answer your comment, no, I'm not self centered, in fact I like to see what others think. I just think that since we know that Saddam Hussein's own people want him destroyed, because he is starving them, and not supporting them, and because he built his nation with too much military for the people to overthrow, and for the fact that he is most likely supporting alcada, we should go in their and help the starving people that have no rights whatsoever because of some asshole dictator that takes joy in nothing but oil. He should be destroyed.

And for these other people you mentioned, the U.S. doesn't seem to pay attention to them, because of the fact that they know not to mess with the us, and the fact that the U.S. hasn't seen them do things bad enough to waste it's time with them.

As for alcada, and Iraq, they are a bunch of sucker punchers if you will, they attack us, and then hide behind trees, and then we have Americans saying destroy the bastard who attacked us, and then when we do, those same Americans start complaining saying, "OHNO people are dying we need to stop fighting." We need to start making up our minds when we want something done, and when it gets done we start complaining on some of the effects it had.

As for Israe and Palistinians, they have been fighting for over 2000 years, and then Saddam gets involved and all he wants to do is have the whole middle east bow to him. If he were to succeed in doing that, then he would have 1 hell of a powerfull nation. Then we would have real shit to worry about, shit like, better economy for a malicious dictator, change from 3rd world to a world power, and another uprise of comunism. That's what would probably happen if Saddam took over, and the rate he's going now, if somebody doesn't stop him, he will be even harder to stop later.

We have nations that agree with taking out Saddam, nations like France, Englend, and Russia. I feel that, that make one formidable reason to get rid of Saddam. They hate him too. And yes oil is part of the problem too. Saddam during dessert storm lit his rigs on fire when he surrendered, and killed many of his people in Iraq, and also showed the world how much power he has over that substance. What do you think supports his war effort, that's right, money from oil.

This debate can go on forever.

It's time we stopped, children...what's that sound? Everybody look what's going down.......

Kevin....It's nice to see that you still have your head up your ass.

I come to this site for the first time ever and all I read is a bunch of idiots arguing. It is very hard to take any of you serious when half of you spell like you're 7. And some of you need a basic course in World History.....you can respond if you like, but I wont see it because I don't plan on coming back to the site of the "the 5th grade world issue debate"...........Morons!

This picture is a clear indication that America has gone completely racist against whites. Yes, look at the picture, the message is clearly that white people are evil and that blacks are the poor victims - complete rubish if you know anything about crime rates in America. It has become cool and fashionable to trash anything white and to kiss ass anything black. The complete perversion of the truth.

This picture is a clear indication that America has gone completely racist against whites. Yes, look at the picture, the message is clearly that white people are evil and that blacks are the poor victims - complete rubish if you know anything about crime rates in America. It has become cool and fashionable to trash anything white and to kiss ass anything black. The complete perversion of the truth.

This picture is a clear indication that America has gone completely racist against whites. Yes, look at the picture, the message is clearly that white people are evil and that blacks are the poor victims - complete rubish if you know anything about crime rates in America. It has become cool and fashionable to trash anything white and to kiss ass anything black. The complete perversion of the truth.

One of the posters clearly depict white people as being evil and blacks as being poor innocent victimes, complete rubish, epecially considering the level of violence committed by blacks today. It has become fashionable to trash white and kiss black ass - even during an anti war rally that has nothing to do with race. It is amazing how people twist reality because of guilt they feel over slavery of blacks that happened 100s of years ago before they were even born. America and Americans are pathetic.

Personally I beleive we are all doomed and we might as well give up..these right wing Nazis who are threatened by ideas by liberty and the essential individuality of the human mind have realized that the only way they can have complete control is too annihilate the entire world, thereby insuring noone will be blowing bubbles, falling in love, smelling flowers or painting subversive artwork when their backs are turned. "It Pretty LET"S Kill it!!!!" Personally I think human beings suck ass and if I had my way I'd divorce the entire sorry species and move to the Ozarks. Thier sick ability for want of control over the minds of others is morbid. The peace movement won't work were all fucked and evil always wins but hey look on the bright side people at least we won't have to worry about saving for retirement when the mushroom clouds start blooming! See there's always a positive side to everything! Now smile and go blow some bubbles outside and thank God you can live in a country that has the ability to Nuke the entire world thus freeing you from your miserable human life. YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1