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Indybay Feature
15,000 March in SF on A20
An estimated 15,000 people rallied in San Francisco today on behalf of the Palestinian people and in solidarity with the anti-war protests in Washington, DC, this weekend.
April 20, San Francisco-- By 10:45, there was 3,000 of them.
By one p.m., it would be more like 15,000.
In the largest demonstration in San Francisco's recent memory, pro-Palestinian and anti-war activists marched through the city, demanding an end to US and international imperialism and militarism-- particularly when concerning the war in Afghanistan and the fate of the Palestinian people.
The march, which started in Dolores Park, was organized by International Action Center and a host of other activist groups, began with a long and diverse list of speakers.
Jeff Patterson, a veteran of the Armed Forces who was discharged for refusing to go to Iraq, told the crowd that he was motivated to protest his deployment by a racist speech: "Our commander said that if anything went wrong [during the war in Iraq], they would 'pull out the silver bullet and nuke the ragheads.'" He urged the crowd to support the refuseniks (Israeli soldiers who are refusing active duty in the Occupied Territories of Palestine). A loud cheer met his appeal.
A Palestinian woman later took the stage to proclaim, "Our struggle is not a religious struggle... our struggle is to create a land where people can live without racism." Yet another speaker pointed her finger squarely at George Bush as complicit in the Israeli occupation of Palestine, saying, "I feel like every time Bush accuses someone of something, he's talking about himself." Her statement echoed the sentiment of many of the signs and banners held by members of the crowd.
Chanting "Free! Free Palestine!", the racially diverse crowd marched to the Civic Center, where their numbers filled the plaza and the streets beyond. Among the crowd were a large contigent of Palestinians, including a group carrying two people lying on stretchers in symbolic mourning for the dead in Jenin, where and IDF invasion recently took a large number of lives, and others who have died in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Police remained nearly invisible, except when guarding a small pro-Israel counter-protest that had been ushered by cops into City Hall in order to avoid confrontation between them and the crowd.
The protest remained peaceful throughout, and at times was festive, as when a bicycle rigged to haul a speaker system blasted dance music to a street corner full of dancing youth.
The demonstration was in solidarity with the protests in Washington, D.C., this weekend, where over 60,000 people gathered to protest the war in Afghanistan, the occupation of Palestine, and the IMF/World Bank meeting.
By one p.m., it would be more like 15,000.
In the largest demonstration in San Francisco's recent memory, pro-Palestinian and anti-war activists marched through the city, demanding an end to US and international imperialism and militarism-- particularly when concerning the war in Afghanistan and the fate of the Palestinian people.
The march, which started in Dolores Park, was organized by International Action Center and a host of other activist groups, began with a long and diverse list of speakers.
Jeff Patterson, a veteran of the Armed Forces who was discharged for refusing to go to Iraq, told the crowd that he was motivated to protest his deployment by a racist speech: "Our commander said that if anything went wrong [during the war in Iraq], they would 'pull out the silver bullet and nuke the ragheads.'" He urged the crowd to support the refuseniks (Israeli soldiers who are refusing active duty in the Occupied Territories of Palestine). A loud cheer met his appeal.
A Palestinian woman later took the stage to proclaim, "Our struggle is not a religious struggle... our struggle is to create a land where people can live without racism." Yet another speaker pointed her finger squarely at George Bush as complicit in the Israeli occupation of Palestine, saying, "I feel like every time Bush accuses someone of something, he's talking about himself." Her statement echoed the sentiment of many of the signs and banners held by members of the crowd.
Chanting "Free! Free Palestine!", the racially diverse crowd marched to the Civic Center, where their numbers filled the plaza and the streets beyond. Among the crowd were a large contigent of Palestinians, including a group carrying two people lying on stretchers in symbolic mourning for the dead in Jenin, where and IDF invasion recently took a large number of lives, and others who have died in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Police remained nearly invisible, except when guarding a small pro-Israel counter-protest that had been ushered by cops into City Hall in order to avoid confrontation between them and the crowd.
The protest remained peaceful throughout, and at times was festive, as when a bicycle rigged to haul a speaker system blasted dance music to a street corner full of dancing youth.
The demonstration was in solidarity with the protests in Washington, D.C., this weekend, where over 60,000 people gathered to protest the war in Afghanistan, the occupation of Palestine, and the IMF/World Bank meeting.
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It would be helpful to see sources for march attendance estimates. I marched from Dolores Park to Civic Center, and don't quibble with any of the figures, but would simply like to see sources given. I know the AP story picked up by the SF Chronicle is saying more than 10,000, and am curious what the police and organizers are estimating.
I think 10,000-15,000 is too low an estimate. I have a friend who met the march as it came into the Civic Center area. She stood on a corner and watched it pass by for an hour. This is the biggest anti-war rally in over a decade. 25,000 is probably a low estimate.
Free Palestine! End the Occupation!
Free Palestine! End the Occupation!
Like this makes any difference.
Their time would be better spent looking at their assholes in a mirror.
When and if Palestine is freed, and they start launching attacks over the borders into Israel, and the aid that U.S. is increased to the Palestinians will the same anti-war forces arise?
Heard a cop talkin about 40,000-50'000. Felt like around 40 to me.
Bravo!!
I am from Indonesia, a country in South East Asian. There is very exciting to hear about your struggle there. Such as the Seattle, all events there right now will be inspire the rise up of people struggle across the world for peace and justice.
Viva Palestina!
Resist Neoliberalism!
I am from Indonesia, a country in South East Asian. There is very exciting to hear about your struggle there. Such as the Seattle, all events there right now will be inspire the rise up of people struggle across the world for peace and justice.
Viva Palestina!
Resist Neoliberalism!
Bravo!!
I am from Indonesia, a country in South East Asian. There is very exciting to hear about your struggle there. Such as the Seattle, all events there right now will be inspire the rise up of people struggle across the world for peace and justice.
Viva Palestina!
Resist Neoliberalism!
I am from Indonesia, a country in South East Asian. There is very exciting to hear about your struggle there. Such as the Seattle, all events there right now will be inspire the rise up of people struggle across the world for peace and justice.
Viva Palestina!
Resist Neoliberalism!
Comparing 08-29 this is at least twice as large - 20,000+! Loved the sea of Palestinian flags!
Peace!
Peace!
It was a great experience to walk with many young and old Palestinian Americans calling for the freedom of the occupied territories. A refreshing contrast to a recent protest of the bombing of Afghanistan where there was far less diversity (no out out of sheer fear of reprisals).
It was a triumph of the true spirit of peace and hope for a hate free future. I hope the next one quadruples in size!!
It was a triumph of the true spirit of peace and hope for a hate free future. I hope the next one quadruples in size!!
I just wanted to express my solidarity with the people demonstrating across America. It is incredibly inspiring to see such large numbers of people demonstrating in the 'belly of the beast'.
I went to the Genoa demonstration last year and it was the most exciting demonstration I have ever been on - enormous and very militant. It really does feel like another world is possible! - People all around the world are demonstrating in ever larger numbers.
500,000 in Barcelona. 2 million in Rome! - We're going to change the world!!!
I went to the Genoa demonstration last year and it was the most exciting demonstration I have ever been on - enormous and very militant. It really does feel like another world is possible! - People all around the world are demonstrating in ever larger numbers.
500,000 in Barcelona. 2 million in Rome! - We're going to change the world!!!
Hi All:
Just wanted you to know there are a lot of good people in America who won't be used as pawns in this new war game. There are a lot of good people in America who don't hate their Muslim neighbors and who see beyond the farce of the Bush and Sharon Administrations. These two administrations have no interest in peace. They hope to use all of our human weakness and prejudices to divide us so they can continue to create chaos in this world, while they make their billions off of this new "war on terrorism." And while they continue to move us even closer to the possibility of a 3rd World War. (I encourage all Americans to read the REAL news which you cannot get on the corporate controlled media (on flashpoints.net, indymedia.org and copvcia.com)
There is also, a great historical book on where money came from, how the Central Banks were formed and who profits off of war. It is a wonderful historical documentation for those who want to look at the deeper truths of war (the root of most wars) and why there is so much profit in it. The title of the book is, "Creature From Jekyll Island: A Second Look At The Federal Reserve," (you can go on realityzone.com to order the book).
Bush said, the other day that Sharon is a man of peace (talk about major doublespeak). No Mr. Bush, Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Jr., Robert Kennedy and yes even, Yitzhak Rabin (in his older years and before he was assassinated by the right-wing forces in Israel) WERE MEN OF PEACE. And those Israeli soldiers (384 of them) who are committed to protecting Israel’s borders, but who have now refused to go into the occupied territories (and kill innocent civilians) are MEN OF PEACE.
But to suggest that Sharon is one, is equal to the famous German propagandist Goebbles, suggesting Hitler was a man of peace. Going into the occupied territories and mowing down defenseless children, women and men is brutally inhumane and will not create justice or peace. And like the women said in the article below, I am ashamed my taxdollars go towards killing innocent civilians (which are also usually people of color).
May all our hearts heal so that we may be overwhelmed by peace and love for ourselves and for our neighbors.
Just wanted you to know there are a lot of good people in America who won't be used as pawns in this new war game. There are a lot of good people in America who don't hate their Muslim neighbors and who see beyond the farce of the Bush and Sharon Administrations. These two administrations have no interest in peace. They hope to use all of our human weakness and prejudices to divide us so they can continue to create chaos in this world, while they make their billions off of this new "war on terrorism." And while they continue to move us even closer to the possibility of a 3rd World War. (I encourage all Americans to read the REAL news which you cannot get on the corporate controlled media (on flashpoints.net, indymedia.org and copvcia.com)
There is also, a great historical book on where money came from, how the Central Banks were formed and who profits off of war. It is a wonderful historical documentation for those who want to look at the deeper truths of war (the root of most wars) and why there is so much profit in it. The title of the book is, "Creature From Jekyll Island: A Second Look At The Federal Reserve," (you can go on realityzone.com to order the book).
Bush said, the other day that Sharon is a man of peace (talk about major doublespeak). No Mr. Bush, Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Jr., Robert Kennedy and yes even, Yitzhak Rabin (in his older years and before he was assassinated by the right-wing forces in Israel) WERE MEN OF PEACE. And those Israeli soldiers (384 of them) who are committed to protecting Israel’s borders, but who have now refused to go into the occupied territories (and kill innocent civilians) are MEN OF PEACE.
But to suggest that Sharon is one, is equal to the famous German propagandist Goebbles, suggesting Hitler was a man of peace. Going into the occupied territories and mowing down defenseless children, women and men is brutally inhumane and will not create justice or peace. And like the women said in the article below, I am ashamed my taxdollars go towards killing innocent civilians (which are also usually people of color).
May all our hearts heal so that we may be overwhelmed by peace and love for ourselves and for our neighbors.
I attended both the pro-Israel rally last Sunday in Justin Herman Plaza and the “Protest against War, Racism and Poverty” pro-Palestinian rally this Saturday. I was encouraged to see and hear the abundance of people at each that espoused peace. But at the same time, the speakers at each were very selective about what facts they shared with the crowd and did not seem to want to take a balanced approach to achieve peace.
It would be naïve to say that 100% or even close on either side want peaceful coexistence, either in the region or around the world. Sharon, no. Hamas, certainly not. Arafat, my jury is still out. There has been an outbreak of anti-semetic attacks worldwide since the offensive. So why do we even try to make things black and white? At the pro-Israel rally, there were a couple people with signs equating Arafat to Hitler. At the pro-Palestinian one, there were signs equating Sharon (or even all of Israel) to the Nazis. Obviously they can’t both be right, and in my opinion they are both overly-dramatic. But in any case, how will these signs help find peace? They will only incite.
Some people at the Palestinian rally had signs about ending US military aid to Israel, which seems like a reasonable political response. It is my understanding that the US also gives aid to the Palestinians. Should that be ended as well? Why wasn’t the issue raised of Saddam Hussain offering money to suicide bombers’ families? Or Iran shipping arms? That “aid” certainly doesn’t help peace.
Why is it so taboo to say that both sides are at fault? Just because one side is wrong, doesn’t make the other one right, whichever way you lean. Like him or not, which I normally don’t, President Bush is the only public figure I have heard lay responsibility on both sides. That’s the only way a peaceful settlement will arise. You cannot condemn violence on one side and condone it on the other.
It’s important to me to believe that being pro-Israel does not have to mean anti-Palestinian, and vice versa. I got a much stronger vibe about that at the Israel rally as opposed to the Palestinian one. In Dolores Park, I saw everything from Jews for Justice to people burning the Israeli flag, and I’m sure everyone on that spectrum didn’t want the same end result. It’s great to be active and to be against something, such as the occupation; but it also must matter what you are FOR instead. The Israeli rally had a much more united and clear agenda, for peacefully coexisting Jewish and Palestinian states.
I am Jewish, so I won’t claim to be unbiased. But I strive to be as objective as possible, which is more than most people at these demonstrations. Ask my friends, and they will probably tell you I am the most liberal, progressive Jew they know. I have attended rallies in Washington DC against police brutality and the bombing in Kosovo; on the eve of the WTO meetings in Seattle in 1999, I was at an anti-globalization rally at the Federal Reserve Bank in Boston; I am a member of the Green Party. But I think the Israel-Palestinian issue is too complex with too much history to throw into the same barrel as those topics.
I would like to clarify between being anti-Sharon vs anti-Israel. This conflict didn’t start with Sharon taking office or the recent Israeli offensive. There have been many Israeli leaders before, with suicide bombings and small Israeli incursions occurring for years. Why wasn’t there such massive support for the Palestinian cause prior? I think liberal people are just getting swept up in a movement, as often happens (I have for other issues) because of the intensified violence. For all the horrific losses on both sides that have resulted, at least it has brought people’s attention to the issue, so a real attempt at a solution can be made.
Sharon didn’t become the leader by chance either. He is a reactionary result of the Israeli people getting frustrated by more peaceful leaders not being able to seal the deal with Arafat. Just 2 years ago, Barak seemed to be on the verge at Camp David, but Arafat declined. If so many people claim that the occupation justifies violent resistance, I think it’s comparable to say that that failure led the Israeli people to react and call for more hawkish means of resolution.
I have never heard a good answer for why Arafat did reject that agreement. Sure, it didn’t give him everything he was looking for. But there must be some room for compromise. Certainly the situation for his people would have been better under those terms than currently, no? Either he has very poor foresight for a leader or he is willing to make an awful lot of human sacrifices for his own agenda.
My last take on the leadership of each side: at least the Israeli leaders are democratically elected. If the people don’t like how someone has performed, they replace him. It’s not hard to follow the will of the public through the elections. As for Arafat, I have no idea why or how he has been proclaimed the Palestinian leader for so long. There have been probably a dozen Israeli leaders in the time that Arafat has been “Chairman”. Obviously none of them have been able to break through with him. So at least some of the blame has to lie with him, being unable to work with anyone the Israelis offer. Maybe it’s time for someone new from that side.
The cries these days are for the “pre-1967” borders. That’s fine, but this whole thing didn’t start in 1967 anymore than it did with Sharon. Do you know why the 1967 borders exist? Because there was a war for the very existence of Israel. The surrounding Arab countries joined together to try to eliminate its existence. If they had won, do you think they would have given any “justice” to the surviving Israelis? Would you now be crying out for pre-1967 borders for the Israelis’ sake? No one slogan can capture the full essence of this deep conflict.
The media certainly doesn’t help either. I have never seen such subjective reporting on international affairs in mainstream newspapers in the US before. Normally a rally titled “Protest against War, Racism, and Poverty” would get minimal coverage, and all that would be noted was the violence and arrests, which are a small aspect. On the Chronicle’s website, this one is the top story, and it downplays any acts of violence. I hardly noticed any coverage of the Israeli rally last week. All I did see was it described as “support for the Israeli offensive”, which is totally off-base and offensive in itself. As for the Israeli and Palestinian media, I see no reason to take either at face value, even IndyMedia, which I highly cherish in general. For instance, in Jenin, the Palestinians call it massacre, the Israelis call it much less with booby traps and armed conflict. I am quite sure it was somewhere in between.
In closing, let me say that people who truly want peace will try to understand both sides. In the end, the real choosing of sides should be between those who are for peace and those who want war, not Israeli versus Palestinian. We in the US and around the world must be models of constructive dialog to find compromises and solutions. If we can’t speak face to face, as uninvolved parties, how can we expect those in the heat of the battle to do so? Justice demands honesty.
It would be naïve to say that 100% or even close on either side want peaceful coexistence, either in the region or around the world. Sharon, no. Hamas, certainly not. Arafat, my jury is still out. There has been an outbreak of anti-semetic attacks worldwide since the offensive. So why do we even try to make things black and white? At the pro-Israel rally, there were a couple people with signs equating Arafat to Hitler. At the pro-Palestinian one, there were signs equating Sharon (or even all of Israel) to the Nazis. Obviously they can’t both be right, and in my opinion they are both overly-dramatic. But in any case, how will these signs help find peace? They will only incite.
Some people at the Palestinian rally had signs about ending US military aid to Israel, which seems like a reasonable political response. It is my understanding that the US also gives aid to the Palestinians. Should that be ended as well? Why wasn’t the issue raised of Saddam Hussain offering money to suicide bombers’ families? Or Iran shipping arms? That “aid” certainly doesn’t help peace.
Why is it so taboo to say that both sides are at fault? Just because one side is wrong, doesn’t make the other one right, whichever way you lean. Like him or not, which I normally don’t, President Bush is the only public figure I have heard lay responsibility on both sides. That’s the only way a peaceful settlement will arise. You cannot condemn violence on one side and condone it on the other.
It’s important to me to believe that being pro-Israel does not have to mean anti-Palestinian, and vice versa. I got a much stronger vibe about that at the Israel rally as opposed to the Palestinian one. In Dolores Park, I saw everything from Jews for Justice to people burning the Israeli flag, and I’m sure everyone on that spectrum didn’t want the same end result. It’s great to be active and to be against something, such as the occupation; but it also must matter what you are FOR instead. The Israeli rally had a much more united and clear agenda, for peacefully coexisting Jewish and Palestinian states.
I am Jewish, so I won’t claim to be unbiased. But I strive to be as objective as possible, which is more than most people at these demonstrations. Ask my friends, and they will probably tell you I am the most liberal, progressive Jew they know. I have attended rallies in Washington DC against police brutality and the bombing in Kosovo; on the eve of the WTO meetings in Seattle in 1999, I was at an anti-globalization rally at the Federal Reserve Bank in Boston; I am a member of the Green Party. But I think the Israel-Palestinian issue is too complex with too much history to throw into the same barrel as those topics.
I would like to clarify between being anti-Sharon vs anti-Israel. This conflict didn’t start with Sharon taking office or the recent Israeli offensive. There have been many Israeli leaders before, with suicide bombings and small Israeli incursions occurring for years. Why wasn’t there such massive support for the Palestinian cause prior? I think liberal people are just getting swept up in a movement, as often happens (I have for other issues) because of the intensified violence. For all the horrific losses on both sides that have resulted, at least it has brought people’s attention to the issue, so a real attempt at a solution can be made.
Sharon didn’t become the leader by chance either. He is a reactionary result of the Israeli people getting frustrated by more peaceful leaders not being able to seal the deal with Arafat. Just 2 years ago, Barak seemed to be on the verge at Camp David, but Arafat declined. If so many people claim that the occupation justifies violent resistance, I think it’s comparable to say that that failure led the Israeli people to react and call for more hawkish means of resolution.
I have never heard a good answer for why Arafat did reject that agreement. Sure, it didn’t give him everything he was looking for. But there must be some room for compromise. Certainly the situation for his people would have been better under those terms than currently, no? Either he has very poor foresight for a leader or he is willing to make an awful lot of human sacrifices for his own agenda.
My last take on the leadership of each side: at least the Israeli leaders are democratically elected. If the people don’t like how someone has performed, they replace him. It’s not hard to follow the will of the public through the elections. As for Arafat, I have no idea why or how he has been proclaimed the Palestinian leader for so long. There have been probably a dozen Israeli leaders in the time that Arafat has been “Chairman”. Obviously none of them have been able to break through with him. So at least some of the blame has to lie with him, being unable to work with anyone the Israelis offer. Maybe it’s time for someone new from that side.
The cries these days are for the “pre-1967” borders. That’s fine, but this whole thing didn’t start in 1967 anymore than it did with Sharon. Do you know why the 1967 borders exist? Because there was a war for the very existence of Israel. The surrounding Arab countries joined together to try to eliminate its existence. If they had won, do you think they would have given any “justice” to the surviving Israelis? Would you now be crying out for pre-1967 borders for the Israelis’ sake? No one slogan can capture the full essence of this deep conflict.
The media certainly doesn’t help either. I have never seen such subjective reporting on international affairs in mainstream newspapers in the US before. Normally a rally titled “Protest against War, Racism, and Poverty” would get minimal coverage, and all that would be noted was the violence and arrests, which are a small aspect. On the Chronicle’s website, this one is the top story, and it downplays any acts of violence. I hardly noticed any coverage of the Israeli rally last week. All I did see was it described as “support for the Israeli offensive”, which is totally off-base and offensive in itself. As for the Israeli and Palestinian media, I see no reason to take either at face value, even IndyMedia, which I highly cherish in general. For instance, in Jenin, the Palestinians call it massacre, the Israelis call it much less with booby traps and armed conflict. I am quite sure it was somewhere in between.
In closing, let me say that people who truly want peace will try to understand both sides. In the end, the real choosing of sides should be between those who are for peace and those who want war, not Israeli versus Palestinian. We in the US and around the world must be models of constructive dialog to find compromises and solutions. If we can’t speak face to face, as uninvolved parties, how can we expect those in the heat of the battle to do so? Justice demands honesty.
to dummy/factchecker, whatever your name is:
your sound like a pathetic sore loser who stubbornly follows the orders of war mongers like sharon and bush. when will you people wake up? No amount of CNN censorship can hide this anymore....
your sound like a pathetic sore loser who stubbornly follows the orders of war mongers like sharon and bush. when will you people wake up? No amount of CNN censorship can hide this anymore....
wow! the resistance showed a little life yesterday. in the usual fashion the police estimated the crowd yesterday at 14-15K. (i like how they report an 1000 range implying that there was some sort of precise method used to count them) their underestimation has reached new highs/lows. the rest of the reporting community said it was more like 35,000. DC was apparantly twice the size. when i got to the plaza i was at about midway in the march, the plaza was very full. i took a big tour around the whole plaza and then went back to grove and sat on the grass next to city hall to watch the crowd stream in. it was a full half hour before it ended. that's a stream 4 lanes wide.
at least the cops were virtually invisible, only seen in force in front of the jewish temple on dolores and in front of city hall. they eventually shooed me and others off that patch of grass for no apparant reason, but at least the guy was very polite about it and i didnt feel like arguing with him.
i didnt feel like much actually. these scripted marches suck out my will to live. i simply cant bring myself to chant hey-hey, ho-ho.... creative outbursts work much better for me. in one spirited palestinian group i was with for a time, a woman led a complex call and response blues song that got me going. dancing and drumming too make such a difference, it makes the event worthwhile despite any change it might make in the political landscape. it feels like a way to build community around new priorities which has the potential of displacing the angry competitive game we're playing every day. i do feel there is more power in marching than say, voting or writing my congressman, it always feels nearly useless. but in reality the attendance figures, arrest figures and type of people present are not ignored by those pulling the levers. their art hinges upon an accurate assessment of the mood of the people and so it certainly will have an effect, will limit their ability to ignore the issues raised.
there was a lot of issues on the table too. the many long-standing ones were all there; columbia, mumia, vieques, forests, indian land, chiapas, and the ubiquitous communist rags. the WTO/IMF protests were the most timely and the issue most on my mind in solidarity with the DC protests, but were far behind the war on terrorism and all issues were dwarfed by the demand to end the israeli occupation. this 'lack of focus' is seized upon by the media pundits as demonstrating the ineptitude of all protestors in general but it seems to me to capitalize on the mall concept successfully (bad pun, i know).
the bottom line is that 25-35,000 people showed up. this is an encouraging spark.
at least the cops were virtually invisible, only seen in force in front of the jewish temple on dolores and in front of city hall. they eventually shooed me and others off that patch of grass for no apparant reason, but at least the guy was very polite about it and i didnt feel like arguing with him.
i didnt feel like much actually. these scripted marches suck out my will to live. i simply cant bring myself to chant hey-hey, ho-ho.... creative outbursts work much better for me. in one spirited palestinian group i was with for a time, a woman led a complex call and response blues song that got me going. dancing and drumming too make such a difference, it makes the event worthwhile despite any change it might make in the political landscape. it feels like a way to build community around new priorities which has the potential of displacing the angry competitive game we're playing every day. i do feel there is more power in marching than say, voting or writing my congressman, it always feels nearly useless. but in reality the attendance figures, arrest figures and type of people present are not ignored by those pulling the levers. their art hinges upon an accurate assessment of the mood of the people and so it certainly will have an effect, will limit their ability to ignore the issues raised.
there was a lot of issues on the table too. the many long-standing ones were all there; columbia, mumia, vieques, forests, indian land, chiapas, and the ubiquitous communist rags. the WTO/IMF protests were the most timely and the issue most on my mind in solidarity with the DC protests, but were far behind the war on terrorism and all issues were dwarfed by the demand to end the israeli occupation. this 'lack of focus' is seized upon by the media pundits as demonstrating the ineptitude of all protestors in general but it seems to me to capitalize on the mall concept successfully (bad pun, i know).
the bottom line is that 25-35,000 people showed up. this is an encouraging spark.
I thought this article was generally a good review of the march, rally, and protests. In the original article by Sophia Delaney, I noticed a reference to "the racially diverse crowd".
The idea of separate races of humanity is a fundamental tenet of racist ideology. Please - let us not propagate such a demeaning belief.
My race is human, my ancestry is Scottish-Southern Cherokee: I am a citizen of the United States of America.
May we all sit down to supper - together - with All Our Relations.
The idea of separate races of humanity is a fundamental tenet of racist ideology. Please - let us not propagate such a demeaning belief.
My race is human, my ancestry is Scottish-Southern Cherokee: I am a citizen of the United States of America.
May we all sit down to supper - together - with All Our Relations.
I came from L.A. to the Anti-War demonstration in S.F. and there were at least 30,000 protestors, I'd estimate. It is interesting that the protestors and the police often give very distinct estimates. In my experience at demonstrations, police (and mainstream media) estimates are most often underestimations of attendance. We can create a world that works for us all. With Justice comes Peace.
This kind of protest definitely matters. Although it might not have an immediate impact on policy, it lifts the spirits and consciousness of those involved. It inspires people who would ordinarily avoid politics to get involved. It allows for networking and solidarity. It allows us to show the rest of our fellow humans how large our numbers are. There were at least 25, 000 in S.F. yesterday.
These kinds of protests put enormous pressure on the government to end the Vietnam war. If we keep going, our voice will be heard, too.
Peace and Solidarity.
These kinds of protests put enormous pressure on the government to end the Vietnam war. If we keep going, our voice will be heard, too.
Peace and Solidarity.
I went to a rally back last fall that was 20, 000, 15 estimated by sf. There were 10 of us riding on the bart then. Yesterday the first train was packed, and the one we mangaged to get on almost everybody were demonstrators. In getting out at mission, going up the escaltor, there were so many people, that at the top of the escaltor you couldn't get off, it was almost an emergency, the escaltor was pushing us forward but there was no forward to go. Somehow people emptyed out of there at just the right speed. It was literally packed. I felt we could have the rally right here while we were waited, and almost got the nerve to start a chant. So to go off that there is no way it was even close to the numbers at the last D P rally.
As for, "as if it means anything" this means alot, it means the people were participating democracy having their voiced be heard, to show that humanity does care, we will not let such atrocities go unnoticed, undealt with. This means a lot, a lot of people were scared, a lot of people were moved, a lot amazed. Being such a catalyst for emotion there is no way to say it didn't mean anything.
It means soemthing in what it did, and it means soemthing it what it implied.
To say that thousand of people coming out for this, that is doesn't mean anything, is to be in denial. There is something here, and you need to check, what would make such an mass of people do something like this, maybe ou will see, there is something there.
As for, "as if it means anything" this means alot, it means the people were participating democracy having their voiced be heard, to show that humanity does care, we will not let such atrocities go unnoticed, undealt with. This means a lot, a lot of people were scared, a lot of people were moved, a lot amazed. Being such a catalyst for emotion there is no way to say it didn't mean anything.
It means soemthing in what it did, and it means soemthing it what it implied.
To say that thousand of people coming out for this, that is doesn't mean anything, is to be in denial. There is something here, and you need to check, what would make such an mass of people do something like this, maybe ou will see, there is something there.
I was at the march yesterday too and came up on one of the ten buses from LA....as for the size, it was BIG, bigger I think than anyone imagined it would be---at least , than I imagined it would be. The size alone was encouraging, definitely, along with the fact that we knew we weren't just marching in SF...we were marching in Washington and in smaller numbers other cities around the country that turned out to show their solidarity too.
However, yes there will always be people who are highlighting their own agendas at marches, rallies, protests---or I guess more the issues that are closest to their hearts, minds, personalities, lives---rather than agendas. But these individual issues are definitely connected to each other and united by the fact that we all feel that there is potential to create a different world----or shake up the order, change what we particularly see as being wrong with the way our lives are being conducted as HUMAN BEINGS in the year 2002. or 2001. or since the very first [protestor god knows when sood up and challenged their surrounding world to EVOLVE!!!
Through technologies from photographs to film to airplanes to the internet, we live in a time of unpercented direct visual and informational connection to the lives of people we have never met and will probably never meet. And you cant say that big business and the US government don't experience that same sense of connection when they choose to set up puppet governments in strategically located countries, negotiate profitable work and trade agreements overseas, guzzle up what we have left of our natural resources, and then get scared and throw people who don't quite look like they do in jail. I know I'm simplifying. But so if our Western corporation- governments choose to make it all so damn connected and "profitable", why are the people protesting all that "profitability"---and mostly recognizing that connection of all those smaller pieces to the larger issue of "profitability"---often discounted as diluting their opinions on the major issues by connecting with each other---when it actually is an amazing thing and fighting connection with connection!
However, yes there will always be people who are highlighting their own agendas at marches, rallies, protests---or I guess more the issues that are closest to their hearts, minds, personalities, lives---rather than agendas. But these individual issues are definitely connected to each other and united by the fact that we all feel that there is potential to create a different world----or shake up the order, change what we particularly see as being wrong with the way our lives are being conducted as HUMAN BEINGS in the year 2002. or 2001. or since the very first [protestor god knows when sood up and challenged their surrounding world to EVOLVE!!!
Through technologies from photographs to film to airplanes to the internet, we live in a time of unpercented direct visual and informational connection to the lives of people we have never met and will probably never meet. And you cant say that big business and the US government don't experience that same sense of connection when they choose to set up puppet governments in strategically located countries, negotiate profitable work and trade agreements overseas, guzzle up what we have left of our natural resources, and then get scared and throw people who don't quite look like they do in jail. I know I'm simplifying. But so if our Western corporation- governments choose to make it all so damn connected and "profitable", why are the people protesting all that "profitability"---and mostly recognizing that connection of all those smaller pieces to the larger issue of "profitability"---often discounted as diluting their opinions on the major issues by connecting with each other---when it actually is an amazing thing and fighting connection with connection!
I was at the protest on saterday and i was amazed by the atmosphere, it was so wonderful to be around such beautiful sincere people. its gives me so much hope to see people come together in such an amazing way to stand up tall for what they believe in. Love is contagious --spread it around.
One love
Mariam
One love
Mariam
I was at the San Francisco demonstration, with my guess more than 10,000. A friend observed, there were many young people, a positive note, also many drummers and music, even a Korean Dance group that integrated with Brazilian drummers.
If one looks at the map of Palestine/Isreal and sees the number of 'settlement's that the Isrealis under Barak and now Sharon have put into supposedly Palistinian territory one might understand why Arafat or any other Palestinian would have to reject the Clinton offer. Geographical visualization will also clarify who owns the water... another less spoken of control of the Israelis.
For those who speak peace in the face of tanks, F16s, missels, rockets, and heavy weapons on the Israely soldiers - evident in all the photos, and the old rifles and cloth head dresses of the Palestinians.. one might have to consider under what conditions peace or pacifism works. If Sharon has in the past massacred/ called for/ assisted the massacre of civilians -- what does pacifism do in the face of such brutality?
Read the European press, examine the pictures carefully, try laying down in front of a tank.
Hopefully the Palestinian struggle will expose to all the Bush program of patriotism, war on terror, war at home and US military foreign policy. Send a note to General Powell for helping General Sharon.
r.g.d.
If one looks at the map of Palestine/Isreal and sees the number of 'settlement's that the Isrealis under Barak and now Sharon have put into supposedly Palistinian territory one might understand why Arafat or any other Palestinian would have to reject the Clinton offer. Geographical visualization will also clarify who owns the water... another less spoken of control of the Israelis.
For those who speak peace in the face of tanks, F16s, missels, rockets, and heavy weapons on the Israely soldiers - evident in all the photos, and the old rifles and cloth head dresses of the Palestinians.. one might have to consider under what conditions peace or pacifism works. If Sharon has in the past massacred/ called for/ assisted the massacre of civilians -- what does pacifism do in the face of such brutality?
Read the European press, examine the pictures carefully, try laying down in front of a tank.
Hopefully the Palestinian struggle will expose to all the Bush program of patriotism, war on terror, war at home and US military foreign policy. Send a note to General Powell for helping General Sharon.
r.g.d.
I rode the bus from San Diego. We got to Dolores Park early, and I saw it fill until it was obvious that people couldn't get there due to lack of parking. The Muni J train was not operating due to repairs. Overall, there was a lot of effort to get people to the event.
Lots of people joined the march as it passed by. There were 10-20 thousand at the City Hall rally. The organizers obviously hadn't planned for that many, judging by the shortage of water, restrooms, the placement of literature tables, etc. Many people left early--partially due to this lack of facilities, need to feed the meter, and so on.
Small groups were planted every block along the march route with Palestine flags. The end rally banner was against war, racism, and poverty, but I didn't hear much about racism or poverty. It was like a big pro-PLO rally. This was reflected in the chants. There were small groups of Palestinians throughout the march who yelled the same few nationalistic chants. Some "Marxist-Leninist" and other leftist groups did the same. The large turnout shows that nobody was fooled by the US claims that there is no war in Afghanistan or that "it's over." However, the march didn't address the actual large-scale invasion and war in Afghanistan nearly as much as the war over what will be the name of the police dog state that keeps the Suez Canal open for Standard Oil.
Lots of people joined the march as it passed by. There were 10-20 thousand at the City Hall rally. The organizers obviously hadn't planned for that many, judging by the shortage of water, restrooms, the placement of literature tables, etc. Many people left early--partially due to this lack of facilities, need to feed the meter, and so on.
Small groups were planted every block along the march route with Palestine flags. The end rally banner was against war, racism, and poverty, but I didn't hear much about racism or poverty. It was like a big pro-PLO rally. This was reflected in the chants. There were small groups of Palestinians throughout the march who yelled the same few nationalistic chants. Some "Marxist-Leninist" and other leftist groups did the same. The large turnout shows that nobody was fooled by the US claims that there is no war in Afghanistan or that "it's over." However, the march didn't address the actual large-scale invasion and war in Afghanistan nearly as much as the war over what will be the name of the police dog state that keeps the Suez Canal open for Standard Oil.
SULTAN AND SHAITAN
By Israel Shamir
http://www.israelshamir.net/sultan.htm
Sultan is good, just his viziers are evil, - this thought comforted many an unhappy subject through human history. Unhappy as we are, we comforted ourselves with vain hopes of positive American intervention in Palestine, enforcing the myth of the US as a severe but honest ruler. As the Deir Yassin Day became Deir Yassin-a-Day, the hopes did not abate. “A real test of the Bush presidency”, wrote Robert Fisk in the Independent. “No time to waste”, seconded Helena Cobban of the Christian Science Monitor. But the visit of the US Secretary of State provided no respite for the Palestinians, not even a lull in Israeli onslaught.
Brilliant Norman Finkelstein reminded us: “The problem with the Bush administration, we are repeatedly told, is that it has been insufficiently engaged with the Middle East, a diplomatic void Colin Powell's mission is supposed to fill. But who gave the green light for Israel to commit the massacres? Who supplied the F-16s and Apache helicopters to Israel? Who vetoed the Security Council resolutions calling for international monitors to supervise the reduction of violence? And who just blocked the proposal of the United Nation's top human rights official, Mary Robinson, to merely send a fact-finding team to the Palestinian territories? Consider this scenario. A and B stand accused of murder. The evidence shows that A provided B with the murder weapon, A gave B the "all-clear" signal, and A prevented onlookers from answering the victim's screams. Would the verdict be that A was insufficiently engaged or that A was every bit as guilty as B of murder?”
He is right. It is time to stop daydreaming about the good sultan. If a mental block forbids you to doubt his good intentions, you may think he is a captive of evil eunuchs, as so many rulers were. From regret and sorrow, we should move into action. After all, the US policies in the Middle East aren’t weather that everybody complains about, but does nothing about it. But can we do something about it, if demonstrations and protests are of no avail?
The answer is yes, and it is not a Jihad, neither a Crusade. Robert Jensen[i]
of Texas University wrote, “I helped kill a Palestinian today. If you pay taxes to the U.S. government, so did you”. He implied that the US taxpayers’ money go into rearming Israel and killing Palestinians. Let Jensen be comforted. The US taxpayer is innocent. The reality is worse: the slaughter is paid for by us, by five billion people on earth living outside of the US.
Every day we transfer five billion dollars to the US, in order to keep this great country’s leaders in the style they are accustomed to, and also to kill as many Palestinians as they find fit. A buck a day, from each of us, Europeans and Africans, Chinese and Japanese, Russians and Arabs. These mind-boggling numbers were published by the British weekly, the Economist. We do it, as since 1972, the US assumed the right to print as many dollars as they like, while we subscribed to the fiction that the greenback, a small sheet of paper, is an equivalent of our labour and of worldly goods.
As a matter of fact, the US dollar has no cover. It is a cheque written by a bankrupt wastrel, good to be framed and put on the wall. Provided they issue as many dollars as they need, it is not amazing there is one superpower and all the rest are in debt. It is not a secret: brave Fidel Castro tells it at every conference, thus assuring endless hostility of the US.
The US financial wizards, Greenspan et al, play with us an old trick of confidence, called a ‘pyramid’. Such games were played in many countries, notably in Albania and Russia, by local tricksters. Usually they end with a catastrophic crash. The Judeo-American con-game differs by its size. It is global. Otherwise, it the same pyramid. 90 per cent of all financial transactions are speculative transactions, writes Noam Chomsky. The pyramid is supported by a massive propaganda brainwash to encourage consumption and expansion. Ordinary people of the US and its allies get no fun out of it: in England, child poverty grew threefold since Margaret Thatcher came to power. In the US, there are millions of homeless children. Americans, Brits, Germans are deeply indebted, as the countries of the Third World.
The US dollar succeeded to replace gold, because it offered an attractive fixed interest rate. The interest rate has become a honey trap for the mankind; it has caused the burden of debt, impoverished states and persons, created the ugly aberration of globalization. Not in vain, Sam Bronfman the Bootlegger, the founder of the powerful Bronfman dynasty and father of the World Jewish Congress chairman, when asked what the most important human invention is, replied without hesitation: ‘interest rate’.[ii]
That was the second Fall of Man. Adam was tempted by the apple, we got tempted by the fixed-rate interest on dollar, the modern equivalent of old-fashioned usury. In the old days, the ‘anti-Semitic’ Church condemned usury as the exclusively Jewish occupation, but now it is free for all. Everybody is a partner, in the words of Heller’s Catch-22 character, Milo Minderbinder. Yet, there is a catch, Catch-22. You can not take your winnings and go away to enjoy them. You have to stay in the game.
The US dollar is not ‘money’ anymore; it is a license, like a Microsoft license, or a patent by a pharmaceutical company. Whenever the US rulers decide, they can freeze the assets of a rebel country. Iran had its assets frozen, Libya, Iraq; surely Saudis will suffer the same fate the moment they will object to American policies. Here is a good riddle for Bilbo Baggins: what is overpriced, unsafe, green and greatly desired by fools?
II
In the last days of the war in South East Asia, I travelled by a slow junk boat down Mekong River, in the company of fellow-journalists, adventurers, local peasants, pigs and chickens. The boat was frequently stopped, searched and taxed by warring parties, but it made an unhurried progress from the old royal capital of Luang Prabang towards Vientiane. In a sleepy village of twenty huts and three elephants, where we stayed overnight, I wandered into a Chinese shop. In front of me, a dark and dour Pathet Lao guerrilla in rubber tyre Ho Chi Minh sandals and AK assault rifle on his back completed his modest shopping and paid for it with some funny money. I recognized its colourful pattern: it was Pathet Lao currency. As the soldier went away, I took out a few Pathet Lao bills I got as a change on the boat and asked the shopkeeper for a pack of cigarettes. The Chinese did not move. “But I have seen you accept this money”, I protested. He replied with wise words worthy of Lao-Tzu, “Only from people with gun”.
The US dollar is still accepted by the world community out of fear, and that is why the US military budget grows every year. That is why the hermit kingdom of North Korea, Iran and Iraq became The Axis of Evil: they do not accept dollar. But fear is a bad adviser. The collapse of the pyramid is imminent. The meltdown began in August 2001, as the Economist advised its readers on 25.08.01, and, unless the timely intervention of persons unknown on 11.09.01, the US dollar would be now of value to numismatists only. But the World War III can only delay the completion of the process.
Sheer prudence and enlightened self-interest have caused the wise rulers to move out of the dollar sphere. European countries launched Euro, the Japanese Yen rose sharply. But their attempt to substitute paper by paper while keeping interest rate is necessarily flawed. In a revolutionary proposal, Dr Mahathir, the Prime Minister of prosperous Malaysia, proposes to return to gold and silver, more specifically to the idea of golden ‘Islamic’ Dinar as a zero-interest rate reserve currency for the world. His great idea to undo the dollar and loans’ double hold deserves to be compared with the reform of Solon, the legendary Sage of Athens, who cancelled debts, defeated Oligarchy, returned land and freedom to people. If implemented, it would put an end to the suffering of Palestinians and to suffering of the Third World in general. The US dollar would fall as fast as in 1929, and with it, the US support for Israel and your debts.
It should not be seen as an attack on America. The ordinary Americans would regain their homes from the banks’ clutches, as mortgages would disappear. The burden of debt would fall off the back of people. True, George Soros and Mark Rich would have to apply to welfare office, together with many ardent supporters of Israel. But it is hardly a misfortune: they would be too busy to make mischief as they would have to earn their living.
That is the answer to the question, how can we help Palestinians. Ask the leaders of your countries to do the right and prudent step of moving their funds and capitals out the US banks and out of the US dollar. It would be more efficient than Jihad and Crusade, more humane and final than suicide bombing.
I liked the idea of Dr Mahathir. The golden Dinar would usher us into a new world, the world of zero rate interest, the world without usury, would help to reconcile society. Marx would enjoy the irony of history, that the Jewish onslaught in Palestine can be stopped only by rejecting partnership in dollar-denominated usury.
III
Religious considerations can not be removed from our practical decisions. The ‘Islamic’ Dinar would complete the system of performance-connected banking. It is called nowadays ‘Islamic banking’, but it was practiced by very catholic Venice for centuries before the advent of usury. On this point, as on many others, Dar al-Islam and Christendom do not differ. The Church banned fixed interest, until John Calvin’s fateful folly, and the great religious reformer, Prophet Muhammad, reinforced the prohibition[iii].
The Jewish Law forbade Jews to charge interest for their "brothers" (other Jews), but required to charge ‘strangers’ (non-Jews). St Ambrose understood the implications of this approach, when he wrote: “From him demand usury, whom you desire to harm. From him exact usury, whom it would not be a crime to kill. Where there is a right of war, there also is a right of usury”[iv]. That is why peace will come to Palestine when the Jews will accept the maxim of Thomas Aquinas, “there are no strangers”, and consider the Palestinians as their dear brothers. Or, in words of Hosea, Say of your brothers: my people, and of your sisters: my loved one[v].
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[i] Houston Chronicle, http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/editorial/outlook/1351792
[ii] Haaretz, 20.11.98, Musaf p.36
[iii] sura 2, 275-280
[iv] The quote supplied by David Pidcock.
[v] Hosea 2:1
By Israel Shamir
http://www.israelshamir.net/sultan.htm
Sultan is good, just his viziers are evil, - this thought comforted many an unhappy subject through human history. Unhappy as we are, we comforted ourselves with vain hopes of positive American intervention in Palestine, enforcing the myth of the US as a severe but honest ruler. As the Deir Yassin Day became Deir Yassin-a-Day, the hopes did not abate. “A real test of the Bush presidency”, wrote Robert Fisk in the Independent. “No time to waste”, seconded Helena Cobban of the Christian Science Monitor. But the visit of the US Secretary of State provided no respite for the Palestinians, not even a lull in Israeli onslaught.
Brilliant Norman Finkelstein reminded us: “The problem with the Bush administration, we are repeatedly told, is that it has been insufficiently engaged with the Middle East, a diplomatic void Colin Powell's mission is supposed to fill. But who gave the green light for Israel to commit the massacres? Who supplied the F-16s and Apache helicopters to Israel? Who vetoed the Security Council resolutions calling for international monitors to supervise the reduction of violence? And who just blocked the proposal of the United Nation's top human rights official, Mary Robinson, to merely send a fact-finding team to the Palestinian territories? Consider this scenario. A and B stand accused of murder. The evidence shows that A provided B with the murder weapon, A gave B the "all-clear" signal, and A prevented onlookers from answering the victim's screams. Would the verdict be that A was insufficiently engaged or that A was every bit as guilty as B of murder?”
He is right. It is time to stop daydreaming about the good sultan. If a mental block forbids you to doubt his good intentions, you may think he is a captive of evil eunuchs, as so many rulers were. From regret and sorrow, we should move into action. After all, the US policies in the Middle East aren’t weather that everybody complains about, but does nothing about it. But can we do something about it, if demonstrations and protests are of no avail?
The answer is yes, and it is not a Jihad, neither a Crusade. Robert Jensen[i]
of Texas University wrote, “I helped kill a Palestinian today. If you pay taxes to the U.S. government, so did you”. He implied that the US taxpayers’ money go into rearming Israel and killing Palestinians. Let Jensen be comforted. The US taxpayer is innocent. The reality is worse: the slaughter is paid for by us, by five billion people on earth living outside of the US.
Every day we transfer five billion dollars to the US, in order to keep this great country’s leaders in the style they are accustomed to, and also to kill as many Palestinians as they find fit. A buck a day, from each of us, Europeans and Africans, Chinese and Japanese, Russians and Arabs. These mind-boggling numbers were published by the British weekly, the Economist. We do it, as since 1972, the US assumed the right to print as many dollars as they like, while we subscribed to the fiction that the greenback, a small sheet of paper, is an equivalent of our labour and of worldly goods.
As a matter of fact, the US dollar has no cover. It is a cheque written by a bankrupt wastrel, good to be framed and put on the wall. Provided they issue as many dollars as they need, it is not amazing there is one superpower and all the rest are in debt. It is not a secret: brave Fidel Castro tells it at every conference, thus assuring endless hostility of the US.
The US financial wizards, Greenspan et al, play with us an old trick of confidence, called a ‘pyramid’. Such games were played in many countries, notably in Albania and Russia, by local tricksters. Usually they end with a catastrophic crash. The Judeo-American con-game differs by its size. It is global. Otherwise, it the same pyramid. 90 per cent of all financial transactions are speculative transactions, writes Noam Chomsky. The pyramid is supported by a massive propaganda brainwash to encourage consumption and expansion. Ordinary people of the US and its allies get no fun out of it: in England, child poverty grew threefold since Margaret Thatcher came to power. In the US, there are millions of homeless children. Americans, Brits, Germans are deeply indebted, as the countries of the Third World.
The US dollar succeeded to replace gold, because it offered an attractive fixed interest rate. The interest rate has become a honey trap for the mankind; it has caused the burden of debt, impoverished states and persons, created the ugly aberration of globalization. Not in vain, Sam Bronfman the Bootlegger, the founder of the powerful Bronfman dynasty and father of the World Jewish Congress chairman, when asked what the most important human invention is, replied without hesitation: ‘interest rate’.[ii]
That was the second Fall of Man. Adam was tempted by the apple, we got tempted by the fixed-rate interest on dollar, the modern equivalent of old-fashioned usury. In the old days, the ‘anti-Semitic’ Church condemned usury as the exclusively Jewish occupation, but now it is free for all. Everybody is a partner, in the words of Heller’s Catch-22 character, Milo Minderbinder. Yet, there is a catch, Catch-22. You can not take your winnings and go away to enjoy them. You have to stay in the game.
The US dollar is not ‘money’ anymore; it is a license, like a Microsoft license, or a patent by a pharmaceutical company. Whenever the US rulers decide, they can freeze the assets of a rebel country. Iran had its assets frozen, Libya, Iraq; surely Saudis will suffer the same fate the moment they will object to American policies. Here is a good riddle for Bilbo Baggins: what is overpriced, unsafe, green and greatly desired by fools?
II
In the last days of the war in South East Asia, I travelled by a slow junk boat down Mekong River, in the company of fellow-journalists, adventurers, local peasants, pigs and chickens. The boat was frequently stopped, searched and taxed by warring parties, but it made an unhurried progress from the old royal capital of Luang Prabang towards Vientiane. In a sleepy village of twenty huts and three elephants, where we stayed overnight, I wandered into a Chinese shop. In front of me, a dark and dour Pathet Lao guerrilla in rubber tyre Ho Chi Minh sandals and AK assault rifle on his back completed his modest shopping and paid for it with some funny money. I recognized its colourful pattern: it was Pathet Lao currency. As the soldier went away, I took out a few Pathet Lao bills I got as a change on the boat and asked the shopkeeper for a pack of cigarettes. The Chinese did not move. “But I have seen you accept this money”, I protested. He replied with wise words worthy of Lao-Tzu, “Only from people with gun”.
The US dollar is still accepted by the world community out of fear, and that is why the US military budget grows every year. That is why the hermit kingdom of North Korea, Iran and Iraq became The Axis of Evil: they do not accept dollar. But fear is a bad adviser. The collapse of the pyramid is imminent. The meltdown began in August 2001, as the Economist advised its readers on 25.08.01, and, unless the timely intervention of persons unknown on 11.09.01, the US dollar would be now of value to numismatists only. But the World War III can only delay the completion of the process.
Sheer prudence and enlightened self-interest have caused the wise rulers to move out of the dollar sphere. European countries launched Euro, the Japanese Yen rose sharply. But their attempt to substitute paper by paper while keeping interest rate is necessarily flawed. In a revolutionary proposal, Dr Mahathir, the Prime Minister of prosperous Malaysia, proposes to return to gold and silver, more specifically to the idea of golden ‘Islamic’ Dinar as a zero-interest rate reserve currency for the world. His great idea to undo the dollar and loans’ double hold deserves to be compared with the reform of Solon, the legendary Sage of Athens, who cancelled debts, defeated Oligarchy, returned land and freedom to people. If implemented, it would put an end to the suffering of Palestinians and to suffering of the Third World in general. The US dollar would fall as fast as in 1929, and with it, the US support for Israel and your debts.
It should not be seen as an attack on America. The ordinary Americans would regain their homes from the banks’ clutches, as mortgages would disappear. The burden of debt would fall off the back of people. True, George Soros and Mark Rich would have to apply to welfare office, together with many ardent supporters of Israel. But it is hardly a misfortune: they would be too busy to make mischief as they would have to earn their living.
That is the answer to the question, how can we help Palestinians. Ask the leaders of your countries to do the right and prudent step of moving their funds and capitals out the US banks and out of the US dollar. It would be more efficient than Jihad and Crusade, more humane and final than suicide bombing.
I liked the idea of Dr Mahathir. The golden Dinar would usher us into a new world, the world of zero rate interest, the world without usury, would help to reconcile society. Marx would enjoy the irony of history, that the Jewish onslaught in Palestine can be stopped only by rejecting partnership in dollar-denominated usury.
III
Religious considerations can not be removed from our practical decisions. The ‘Islamic’ Dinar would complete the system of performance-connected banking. It is called nowadays ‘Islamic banking’, but it was practiced by very catholic Venice for centuries before the advent of usury. On this point, as on many others, Dar al-Islam and Christendom do not differ. The Church banned fixed interest, until John Calvin’s fateful folly, and the great religious reformer, Prophet Muhammad, reinforced the prohibition[iii].
The Jewish Law forbade Jews to charge interest for their "brothers" (other Jews), but required to charge ‘strangers’ (non-Jews). St Ambrose understood the implications of this approach, when he wrote: “From him demand usury, whom you desire to harm. From him exact usury, whom it would not be a crime to kill. Where there is a right of war, there also is a right of usury”[iv]. That is why peace will come to Palestine when the Jews will accept the maxim of Thomas Aquinas, “there are no strangers”, and consider the Palestinians as their dear brothers. Or, in words of Hosea, Say of your brothers: my people, and of your sisters: my loved one[v].
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[i] Houston Chronicle, http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/editorial/outlook/1351792
[ii] Haaretz, 20.11.98, Musaf p.36
[iii] sura 2, 275-280
[iv] The quote supplied by David Pidcock.
[v] Hosea 2:1
"Here is a good riddle for Bilbo Baggins: what is overpriced, unsafe, green and greatly desired by fools?"
WWGD (What Would Gollum Do?)
WWGD (What Would Gollum Do?)
Did anyone else feel they were mislead as to the purpose of the rally?
I went with a contingent of Greens from the Santa Cruz area and I was under the impression that the rally's focus would be anti-war, anti-racism, and anti-poverty; not a rally completely dominated by, as someone already said, a pro-PLO message. I don't support what Israel is doing, I think it's long been time for a free Palestinian state, but I don't think nationalism and Israeli flags with swastikas on them are the way to go about it. (In my opinion, you surely won't have peace without secular states in the Middle East)
There were a lot of groups there hoping to advance their message, there were a lot of thoughtful activists promoting better wages for workers, the end of US subversion of foreign governments, the end of Navy boming in Puerto Rico, protesting nuclear weapons, and many other causes, but the mass media will present the image that 40,000 people came together on Saturday to say "Israel Sucks" and burn Israeli flags.
It was great to see so many people getting together to protest war, poverty, and racism. I am sure that the majority of them really intended for that to be their message. It's unfortunate that the promotion of the event didn't prevent the massive culture jam that we saw on Saturday and take steps to make sure that the message was more well rounded and representative of the masses that gathered.
That's my gripe. Anyone agree?
ahtug
I went with a contingent of Greens from the Santa Cruz area and I was under the impression that the rally's focus would be anti-war, anti-racism, and anti-poverty; not a rally completely dominated by, as someone already said, a pro-PLO message. I don't support what Israel is doing, I think it's long been time for a free Palestinian state, but I don't think nationalism and Israeli flags with swastikas on them are the way to go about it. (In my opinion, you surely won't have peace without secular states in the Middle East)
There were a lot of groups there hoping to advance their message, there were a lot of thoughtful activists promoting better wages for workers, the end of US subversion of foreign governments, the end of Navy boming in Puerto Rico, protesting nuclear weapons, and many other causes, but the mass media will present the image that 40,000 people came together on Saturday to say "Israel Sucks" and burn Israeli flags.
It was great to see so many people getting together to protest war, poverty, and racism. I am sure that the majority of them really intended for that to be their message. It's unfortunate that the promotion of the event didn't prevent the massive culture jam that we saw on Saturday and take steps to make sure that the message was more well rounded and representative of the masses that gathered.
That's my gripe. Anyone agree?
ahtug
I am trying to be reasonable and constructive here. I hope to see more of that.
I am Jewish. Let's say I will acceed that Zionism could be construed as racist. Will you all, who support the Palestinians for whatever various reasons, acceed that they might not be a group of 100% saints? Did not the PLO charter call for the destruction of Israel until fairly recently? You must consider that racist or some form of hatred. And just because it was stricken from the record, is it not likely that those feelings still lie in the hearts of some of those members? Correct me if I am wrong, but I have heard reports of Palestinian schoolbooks teaching horrific, evil lies about Jews to children. Will that help peace? I am not aware of any official Zionist literature that points out a specific group of people, such as those examples.
True peace requires inner peace as well.
Call me names if you want, but please offer some other kind of solution too. We can't expect to make everyone on both sides love each other, but there must be some way to coexist.
I am Jewish. Let's say I will acceed that Zionism could be construed as racist. Will you all, who support the Palestinians for whatever various reasons, acceed that they might not be a group of 100% saints? Did not the PLO charter call for the destruction of Israel until fairly recently? You must consider that racist or some form of hatred. And just because it was stricken from the record, is it not likely that those feelings still lie in the hearts of some of those members? Correct me if I am wrong, but I have heard reports of Palestinian schoolbooks teaching horrific, evil lies about Jews to children. Will that help peace? I am not aware of any official Zionist literature that points out a specific group of people, such as those examples.
True peace requires inner peace as well.
Call me names if you want, but please offer some other kind of solution too. We can't expect to make everyone on both sides love each other, but there must be some way to coexist.
One thing about the left's response to the events last September and the subsequent US reaction has had me very perplexed -- the lack of an articulated alternative. I have heard nothing but criticism toward US policy, some of it well-considered and appropriate, some of it outlandish and bizarre, yet I've yet to hear a coherent, specific vision of how to deal with the very real challenges presented by terrorism other than a rather vague and simplistic, neo-isolationist calling to end US involvement abroad. Considering the amount of energy and dedication that went into the creation of the Al-Qaeda infrastructure, this seems unlikey to happen even if the US were to retreat from large swaths of the world scene.
But most of all, I'm confused by the left's apparant unwillingness to acknowledge that there are a good number of people out there who are intent on *killing* us, North Americans and Westerners in general, in horrifically visible ways, regardless of where one might fall on the political spectrum. I've you've been to lower Manhattan in the last seven months, this fact becomes painfully obvious. But if a military response is inappropriate, then what specifically is a viable solution to these dangers. I suspect that the left is suffering from the same simplistic, black-and-white thinking that is coming out of the White House. The more I think left and right are suffering from the same faulty reasoning and lack of nuance, and whichever side they're on is more superficial trimming than anything else.
But most of all, I'm confused by the left's apparant unwillingness to acknowledge that there are a good number of people out there who are intent on *killing* us, North Americans and Westerners in general, in horrifically visible ways, regardless of where one might fall on the political spectrum. I've you've been to lower Manhattan in the last seven months, this fact becomes painfully obvious. But if a military response is inappropriate, then what specifically is a viable solution to these dangers. I suspect that the left is suffering from the same simplistic, black-and-white thinking that is coming out of the White House. The more I think left and right are suffering from the same faulty reasoning and lack of nuance, and whichever side they're on is more superficial trimming than anything else.
http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/israel/return/isr-pa-rtr.htm
main thing is getting the palestinians off the zionists's claws .
is the us government not a bunch of thugs ? any government for that matter.
reason for all of us to shake the fuckers off!
resistresistresistresistresistresistresistresistresist.....
__________________________________________
http://www.israelshamir.net/ufo.htm
(In Kuala Lumpur, a futuristic and lush tropical city of hospitable Malays, the Foreign Ministers of the Islamic States convened the Conference on Terror. I attended it as an observer. The following is A Talk I Never Gave at the Conference or)
UFO AND TERROR
By Israel Shamir
“My wife has been raped by a Martian”. It was a favourite and frequent headline in 1950s, when the power was not concentrated to a present extent, and journalists had to do with UFO stories. With years, veracity of the opinion-makers did not change, but their malice grew considerably. Millions of newspaper copies, billions of TV frames and zillions of words postulate Islamic Terror as the latest scourge of mankind. It is not strange, Your Excellencies, that your defensive reflexes took precedence over your common sense, and you try and justify, renounce or explain Islamic Terror – by the persecution of Palestinians in the Apartheid State of Israel, or by the US siege of Iraq and colonisation of Saudi Arabia. You gave some pretty good reasons, but, as a PR professional, I’ll tell you: one can find good reasons for anything.
In the fervour of explanations, you forgot to ask yourselves the first question of a scientist: does it exist? Is there such a phenomenon, Islamic Terror? Yes, there is a lot of spin, and the media takes it for granted. But a say-so would not suffice as a proof of existence. In 18th century, good people of Salem in New England carried out a crusade against witches. Whoever would doubt the very fact of the female alliance with Devil, would surely be marginalised or presented as a Satan’s stooge. For centuries, there was a spin about Jews who consume Christian children’s blood for Passover. Hundreds of books and articles were published on the subject; England still has a child saint supposedly martyred by bloodthirsty Jews.
But now we disregard this silly spin. It is a right time to do the same with the latest Witch Hunt, the newest Blood Libel, so-called Islamic Terror.
In my opinion, it exists in the same way and to the same extent as the Jewish Conspiracy and Yellow Peril. There is a scattering of few disjointed and unconnected guerrilla movements in the world, that of Basques (ETA) and South Lebanese (Hezbollah), Corsicans and Mindanao (South Philippines), Irish and Columbians, Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka, UNITA in Angola and HAMAS in Palestine. There is no way or reason to select a few of them on a spurious ground of some religious affiliation and ascribe them to Islamic Terror Network.
People of South Lebanon, South Philippines, Corsica, Basque country, or Palestine have their legitimate grievances, but their connection to their religion is just a question of colouring. In the same vein, the war of Iran and Iraq could be (but should not) be described as the war between Sunni and Shiite Islam, but we know that the religious factor was not an important one in the decisions of Saddam Hussein and the Iranian leaders.
Practically nowhere one can find an Islamic terror organisation per se, fighting for the establishment of an Islamic state. Before the collapse of Communism, the Palestinians preferred a left-wing ideology to fight their oppressors. Among Palestinian militant leaders, a place of honour was held by a Christian, George Habash. HAMAS of Palestine grew as the only movement expressly permitted by the Zionist Apartheid state, while non-religious FATAH was suppressed. Thus, the feelings of the oppressed Palestinians were channelled by the Jews into this quasi-religious movement.
Hezbollah fighters of Lebanon fought against Israeli and American occupation, not for the Islamic rule. They are similar to the Irish Republicans, not famous for their Islamic beliefs. Chechens continued their two-hundred year long war against Russian rule, building temporary alliances with America, Germany and Turkey. Their biggest alleged achievement, explosion of Moscow high-rise buildings, was actually performed by an Israeli citizen Mr Anatoly Chubais, it was disclosed last month by another Israeli citizen, Dr Boris Berezovsky.
Could we select the ‘Muslim terrorists’ by their methods? Surely not. IRA bombed London pubs well before Hamas discovered Tel Aviv café. The Tamil Tigers, non-Muslim militant organisation, trained by Israeli Mossad, is the world leader in suicide bombings. There is no case to presume existence of Islamic Terror at all. Until we come to 9/11, when President Bush proclaimed its existence and announced the World Wide Muslim Conspiracy of al Qaeeda.
The perpetrators of the 9/11 are still unknown to us. The instant recovery of a hijacker’s passport intact on the place of jet crush should be counted among the most spectacular miracles of all times, well ahead of Daniel’s trip into the fiery furnace. The old Babylonian furnace surely did not develop the temperature of burning jet fuel. Arab-language flying manuals in the trunk of a car, inaudible videotapes and other conveniently recovered exhibits make Moscow trials of 1937 a bright example of justice incorrupt. The prisoners of Afghani war have been kept away from prying eyes, in the limbo of Guantanamo, lest they disclose the greatest secret of all: their innocence.
On the other hand, there is an accumulating evidence of Israeli Connection. Warning messages on the Israeli network INIGO were sent to Israelis on Manhattan, in real time, when the planes left their airfields. In all airports utilised by hijackers, one Israeli company ICTS attended to security. Jewish financial companies made forward insurance stock deals that enriched them.
Israel utilized the 9/11 events to its full capacity: present massacre in the Palestinian cities is described as ‘the war on terror’. The Muslim neighbours of Israel were terrorised into passivity by the American rage. Destruction of Afghanistan raised the threshold of the world sensitivity to horror, and made possible the present invasion of Palestinian cities. Probably it is not enough for the verdict, but the same can be said about al-Qaeeda’s alleged involvement.
There is no Islamic terror, but there is an Israeli-American terror of Dar al-Islam. You have not sinned; but you were sinned against. Thus, when the US President and his media question you, “what do you do about the Islamic terror?’, I suggest, Your Excellencies, a good Jewish reply, ‘What terror?’
main thing is getting the palestinians off the zionists's claws .
is the us government not a bunch of thugs ? any government for that matter.
reason for all of us to shake the fuckers off!
resistresistresistresistresistresistresistresistresist.....
__________________________________________
http://www.israelshamir.net/ufo.htm
(In Kuala Lumpur, a futuristic and lush tropical city of hospitable Malays, the Foreign Ministers of the Islamic States convened the Conference on Terror. I attended it as an observer. The following is A Talk I Never Gave at the Conference or)
UFO AND TERROR
By Israel Shamir
“My wife has been raped by a Martian”. It was a favourite and frequent headline in 1950s, when the power was not concentrated to a present extent, and journalists had to do with UFO stories. With years, veracity of the opinion-makers did not change, but their malice grew considerably. Millions of newspaper copies, billions of TV frames and zillions of words postulate Islamic Terror as the latest scourge of mankind. It is not strange, Your Excellencies, that your defensive reflexes took precedence over your common sense, and you try and justify, renounce or explain Islamic Terror – by the persecution of Palestinians in the Apartheid State of Israel, or by the US siege of Iraq and colonisation of Saudi Arabia. You gave some pretty good reasons, but, as a PR professional, I’ll tell you: one can find good reasons for anything.
In the fervour of explanations, you forgot to ask yourselves the first question of a scientist: does it exist? Is there such a phenomenon, Islamic Terror? Yes, there is a lot of spin, and the media takes it for granted. But a say-so would not suffice as a proof of existence. In 18th century, good people of Salem in New England carried out a crusade against witches. Whoever would doubt the very fact of the female alliance with Devil, would surely be marginalised or presented as a Satan’s stooge. For centuries, there was a spin about Jews who consume Christian children’s blood for Passover. Hundreds of books and articles were published on the subject; England still has a child saint supposedly martyred by bloodthirsty Jews.
But now we disregard this silly spin. It is a right time to do the same with the latest Witch Hunt, the newest Blood Libel, so-called Islamic Terror.
In my opinion, it exists in the same way and to the same extent as the Jewish Conspiracy and Yellow Peril. There is a scattering of few disjointed and unconnected guerrilla movements in the world, that of Basques (ETA) and South Lebanese (Hezbollah), Corsicans and Mindanao (South Philippines), Irish and Columbians, Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka, UNITA in Angola and HAMAS in Palestine. There is no way or reason to select a few of them on a spurious ground of some religious affiliation and ascribe them to Islamic Terror Network.
People of South Lebanon, South Philippines, Corsica, Basque country, or Palestine have their legitimate grievances, but their connection to their religion is just a question of colouring. In the same vein, the war of Iran and Iraq could be (but should not) be described as the war between Sunni and Shiite Islam, but we know that the religious factor was not an important one in the decisions of Saddam Hussein and the Iranian leaders.
Practically nowhere one can find an Islamic terror organisation per se, fighting for the establishment of an Islamic state. Before the collapse of Communism, the Palestinians preferred a left-wing ideology to fight their oppressors. Among Palestinian militant leaders, a place of honour was held by a Christian, George Habash. HAMAS of Palestine grew as the only movement expressly permitted by the Zionist Apartheid state, while non-religious FATAH was suppressed. Thus, the feelings of the oppressed Palestinians were channelled by the Jews into this quasi-religious movement.
Hezbollah fighters of Lebanon fought against Israeli and American occupation, not for the Islamic rule. They are similar to the Irish Republicans, not famous for their Islamic beliefs. Chechens continued their two-hundred year long war against Russian rule, building temporary alliances with America, Germany and Turkey. Their biggest alleged achievement, explosion of Moscow high-rise buildings, was actually performed by an Israeli citizen Mr Anatoly Chubais, it was disclosed last month by another Israeli citizen, Dr Boris Berezovsky.
Could we select the ‘Muslim terrorists’ by their methods? Surely not. IRA bombed London pubs well before Hamas discovered Tel Aviv café. The Tamil Tigers, non-Muslim militant organisation, trained by Israeli Mossad, is the world leader in suicide bombings. There is no case to presume existence of Islamic Terror at all. Until we come to 9/11, when President Bush proclaimed its existence and announced the World Wide Muslim Conspiracy of al Qaeeda.
The perpetrators of the 9/11 are still unknown to us. The instant recovery of a hijacker’s passport intact on the place of jet crush should be counted among the most spectacular miracles of all times, well ahead of Daniel’s trip into the fiery furnace. The old Babylonian furnace surely did not develop the temperature of burning jet fuel. Arab-language flying manuals in the trunk of a car, inaudible videotapes and other conveniently recovered exhibits make Moscow trials of 1937 a bright example of justice incorrupt. The prisoners of Afghani war have been kept away from prying eyes, in the limbo of Guantanamo, lest they disclose the greatest secret of all: their innocence.
On the other hand, there is an accumulating evidence of Israeli Connection. Warning messages on the Israeli network INIGO were sent to Israelis on Manhattan, in real time, when the planes left their airfields. In all airports utilised by hijackers, one Israeli company ICTS attended to security. Jewish financial companies made forward insurance stock deals that enriched them.
Israel utilized the 9/11 events to its full capacity: present massacre in the Palestinian cities is described as ‘the war on terror’. The Muslim neighbours of Israel were terrorised into passivity by the American rage. Destruction of Afghanistan raised the threshold of the world sensitivity to horror, and made possible the present invasion of Palestinian cities. Probably it is not enough for the verdict, but the same can be said about al-Qaeeda’s alleged involvement.
There is no Islamic terror, but there is an Israeli-American terror of Dar al-Islam. You have not sinned; but you were sinned against. Thus, when the US President and his media question you, “what do you do about the Islamic terror?’, I suggest, Your Excellencies, a good Jewish reply, ‘What terror?’
For more information:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sh...
Kudos to this wonderful protest, and to amny others taking place around the world in favour of the Palestinian people who have had to endure the untold horrors of 35 years of military occupation.I think that the Palestinian people deserve all the support they get and deserve to have either a state of their own or to have a state together with Jews where the two can live side by side.
Whatever happens there must be justice.
Whatever happens there must be justice.
No... I don't agree that ANYONE was mislead. The focus of the march WAS anti-racism, anti-war, anti-poverty... and many groups attended who had their own agendas. However, the biggest story of the day is Palestine and the Israeli militarists attempts to destroy the Palestinian struggle for freedom and independence.
I for one did not feel like the protest was hijacked... in fact, I think the anti-war movement made a GREAT LEAP in extending it's heartfelt solidarity to the Palestinian People. This was truly a historic event... it was the largest demonstration in solidarity with Palestine that has ever occured in the United States. I'm proud of that... and I'm proud that so many diverse groups and individuals STOOD UP to express that solidarity! FREE PALESTINE!
I for one did not feel like the protest was hijacked... in fact, I think the anti-war movement made a GREAT LEAP in extending it's heartfelt solidarity to the Palestinian People. This was truly a historic event... it was the largest demonstration in solidarity with Palestine that has ever occured in the United States. I'm proud of that... and I'm proud that so many diverse groups and individuals STOOD UP to express that solidarity! FREE PALESTINE!
in response to the "where is the suggested alternative response to terrorism" question, here's Noam Chomsky summarizing military historian Michael Howard from the jan-feb 02 issue of Foreign Affairs:
"Referring to September 11, he recommended a police operation against a criminal conspiracy whose members should be hunted down and brought before an international court, where they could receive a fair trial, and if found guilty be awarded an appropriate sentence."
Chomsky dryly noted that except for "the fact that the world is ruled by force, not by law...that sounds kind of reasonable to me." (FAIR NYC Town Hall, 1/22/02)
To see an example of how this sane alternative can be -- and was -- put into action in different circumstances, go to a good video store and rent "The House on Garibaldi Street." Neat flick.
"Referring to September 11, he recommended a police operation against a criminal conspiracy whose members should be hunted down and brought before an international court, where they could receive a fair trial, and if found guilty be awarded an appropriate sentence."
Chomsky dryly noted that except for "the fact that the world is ruled by force, not by law...that sounds kind of reasonable to me." (FAIR NYC Town Hall, 1/22/02)
To see an example of how this sane alternative can be -- and was -- put into action in different circumstances, go to a good video store and rent "The House on Garibaldi Street." Neat flick.
On 6 June 1982, the Israeli army invaded Lebanon in what it described as 'retaliation' for the attempted assassination of Israeli Ambassador Argov in London on 4 June. The invasion, soon dubbed "Operation Peace for Galilee," progressed rapidly. By 18 June 1982, Israel had surrounded the Palestine Liberation Organisation's (PLO) armed forces in the western part of the Lebanese capital. A cease-fire, mediated by United States Envoy Philip Habib, resulted in the PLO evacuation of Beirut on 1 September 1982.
On 11 September 1982, Israeli Defence Minister Ariel Sharon, the architect of the invasion, announced that "2,000 terrorists" had remained inside the Palestinian refugee camps around Beirut. On Wednesday 15 September, the day after the assassination of Israeli-allied Phalangist militia leader and Lebanese President-elect Bashir Gemayel, the Israeli army occupied West Beirut, "encircling and sealing" the camps of Sabra and Shatila, which were inhabited by Lebanese and Palestinian civilians. By mid-day on 15 September 1982, the refugee camps were entirely surrounded by Israeli tanks and soldiers, who installed checkpoints at strategic locations and crossroads around the camps in order to monitor the entry or exit of any person. During the late afternoon and evening of that day, the camps were shelled.
Around mid-day on Thursday 16 September 1982, a unit of approximately 150 Israeli-allied Phalangists entered the first camp. For the next 40 hours members of the Phalangist militia raped, killed, and injured a large number of unarmed civilians, mostly children, women and elderly people inside the encircled and sealed camps. The estimate of victims varies between 700 (the official Israeli figure) to 3,500. The victims and survivors of the massacres have never been deemed entitled to a formal investigation of the tragedy, since Israel's Kahan Commission did not have a judicial mandate and was not backed up by legal force.
I'm wondering about the size estimates. Ted Glick and others estimated 200,000 in DC. Ive seen a range of 10,000 to 30,000 in SF where I was. I know for a fact that there were solidarity demos in Seattle, Portland, Eugene and Ashland<OR (est. 300 here), and Redding,CA. Can someone find out how many americans were in the street on April 20th nation-wide?
Ouch, those prematurely exploding bombs hurt!
Jebaliya, Gaza
Jebaliya, Gaza
The San Francisco Chronicle front page said 20,000 marched in San Francisco (published on Sunday, April 21).
first to blame both sides- thank you for being a voice of rationality and actually looking at something objectively and as for arthur cohen or who ever it was that dished out a string of 3rd grade insults in response- maybe you should look at something unbiasedly and get the facts before you go insulting people. when you see something from only one side your just as bad as the people your pretending to fight against.
San Francisco Chronicle ombudsman Dick Rogers faults his paper for failing to cover a pro-Israel rally:
"Last Sunday [April 14], thousands of pro-Israel demonstrators from San Francisco to the Salinas Valley gathered at Justin Herman Plaza here to rally peacefully. The event was news (just a week before we carried a report on a pro- Palestinian demonstration with FAR FEWER PEOPLE). Yet last Monday, the paper didn't have a word on the pro-Israel rally. This wasn't fair and balanced coverage.
There isn't a good explanation for the decision. The event was judged by the usual standards in a city where demonstrations are as common as coffeehouses. The city desk mistakenly decided that it wasn't all that big. And there was no violence. Those may be valid criteria in some cases, but not this one."
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/04/21/ED35579.DTL
Rogers's criticism is welcome, but Chronicle reader Scott Abramson (fourth letter) makes an excellent point:
"One reason for [the lack of coverage], Chronicle readers' representative Dick Rogers suggests, is that the pro-Israel rally was not violent. I guess that was our mistake: Perhaps we should have attacked police or tried to burn some buildings. Thank you, Mr. Rogers, for such illuminating insight into Chronicle reporting policy."
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/04/23/ED29378.DTL
"Last Sunday [April 14], thousands of pro-Israel demonstrators from San Francisco to the Salinas Valley gathered at Justin Herman Plaza here to rally peacefully. The event was news (just a week before we carried a report on a pro- Palestinian demonstration with FAR FEWER PEOPLE). Yet last Monday, the paper didn't have a word on the pro-Israel rally. This wasn't fair and balanced coverage.
There isn't a good explanation for the decision. The event was judged by the usual standards in a city where demonstrations are as common as coffeehouses. The city desk mistakenly decided that it wasn't all that big. And there was no violence. Those may be valid criteria in some cases, but not this one."
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/04/21/ED35579.DTL
Rogers's criticism is welcome, but Chronicle reader Scott Abramson (fourth letter) makes an excellent point:
"One reason for [the lack of coverage], Chronicle readers' representative Dick Rogers suggests, is that the pro-Israel rally was not violent. I guess that was our mistake: Perhaps we should have attacked police or tried to burn some buildings. Thank you, Mr. Rogers, for such illuminating insight into Chronicle reporting policy."
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/04/23/ED29378.DTL
This was part of an article in the NYTimes today:
May 1, 2002
Egypt Assails the Lumping of U.S. War With Israel's
By NEIL MacFARQUHAR
CAIRO, April 30 — President Hosni Mubarak criticized Washington today for allowing Israel to lump the Palestinian struggle to end occupation into the same category as the war on terrorism...
"This fierce campaign that Israel is launching on the Palestinian people and leadership must end, this campaign that is unjustly based on a comparison between the U.S. war against terrorism in Afghanistan and Israel's war against Palestinians..."
I am curious how all the recent Palestinian supporters, who align it with the war on terrorism and other US actions, feel about someone supposedly on their side saying such things? An Arab leader decries the US govt for making such a connection as a defense; would he turn away the thousands of supporters who do so because they make the very same connection as a protest? Do you feel like you are really on the same side as someone who says that? If a person so closely involved in the situation thinks it's a bogus connection, what do you think? Should it matter why different people support the same issue? Are there conflicts?
May 1, 2002
Egypt Assails the Lumping of U.S. War With Israel's
By NEIL MacFARQUHAR
CAIRO, April 30 — President Hosni Mubarak criticized Washington today for allowing Israel to lump the Palestinian struggle to end occupation into the same category as the war on terrorism...
"This fierce campaign that Israel is launching on the Palestinian people and leadership must end, this campaign that is unjustly based on a comparison between the U.S. war against terrorism in Afghanistan and Israel's war against Palestinians..."
I am curious how all the recent Palestinian supporters, who align it with the war on terrorism and other US actions, feel about someone supposedly on their side saying such things? An Arab leader decries the US govt for making such a connection as a defense; would he turn away the thousands of supporters who do so because they make the very same connection as a protest? Do you feel like you are really on the same side as someone who says that? If a person so closely involved in the situation thinks it's a bogus connection, what do you think? Should it matter why different people support the same issue? Are there conflicts?
following the Mayan Calendar...and the schedule of creation...I feel in my bones that the bush gang will be falling within this next year to year and a half...the puppet strings are fraying...soon to fall apart...when that day comes...there will be dancing in the street...blessings to all that are standing the their truth...
the mayan calendar doesn't end until 2011. But then there's an apocalypse.
By one p.m., it would be more like 150! includint by passers!
In the largest demonstration in San Francisco's recent memory, pro-Palestinian and anti-war activists marched through the city, demanding
hand-outs and free land. and claims that if they do not receive it they will throw a hissey fit.
give it up
By one p.m., it would be more like 150! includint by passers! from what I saw that was about right
although the organizers tend to count anyone and everyone as part of their group (what else is new)
although the organizers tend to count anyone and everyone as part of their group (what else is new)
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